HDMI vs I2S Audio

[@gotham61]

The Jay’s Audio CDT3 transport has a HDMI connector output that conforms to the PS Audio format.

[@ptg01]

Denafrip's DACs that have I2S using HDMI has pin-outs that are 'configurable' and supposedly will work with PSAudio's SACD Transport. Never tried it though....

[@carlstineman274]

Not sure Paul got to the core of the problem Chris, the questioner, was asking about. In order to encourage copyright holders to allow their music to be published in the DSD format on SACDs, Sony encrypts the DSD layer on commercial SACDs. The DSD signal can only be decrypted to an I^2S format by a module included in an onboard DAC supplied by Sony that many SACD players use. Unfortunately that DAC is of indifferent quality, hence the desire to export the I^2S signal to a better external DAC. I own an OPPO 103D SACD player, and, like Chris, hoped to export the unencrypted DSD layer to an external DAC. After carefully reading the OPPO's owner's manual, I discovered that the OPPO is unable to export the unencrypted DSD signal (I^2S) via any of its digital export ports (USB, optical, HDMI, etc.) due to the music copyright protection provisions built into its DAC chip. PS Audio is able to isolate and export the unencrypted I^2S signal from its transports to one of its separate DACs while still complying with SONY's copyright protections by using a "handshake" arrangement between the transport and the DAC that ensures that there is no equipment capable of recording the unencrypted digital I^2S signal in the transfer path, the main concern of the copyright holders. So, I believe, PS Audio DACs can only accept unencrypted I^2S signals via an HDMI cable connection from a transport capable of this "handshake" arrangement. Paul described this transfer arrangement in an Ask Paul segment several years ago.

[@AV-MusicMan]

Yes, that’s correct. HDMI is the physical cable connection and only ps audio dac with sacd capability can decrypt the signal, as that creates the closed loop Paul is referring too. It is a common misconception to think that you can export sacd dsd layer to a external dac via an sacd player like oppo 105. What I do to get around this is take the oppo 105 and use an internet hack to rip the dsd files in sacd to dsf file(s). There is a usb boot disk that does this. Then I convert that dsf file to wave format. Then I burn the wave files to dvd or cd and play on ps audio perfect wave transport to Berkeley dac. The perfect wave can play wave files on either dvd or cd, so it’s really handy! Voila, sacd layer exposed!

[@thomascaselli6139]

The OPPO does output the DSD data stream via the HDMI Audio output connector (OPPO205). I doing it into a T+A DAC with the optional HDMI board. The screen clearly displays DSD as the data stream.

[@AV-MusicMan]

@@thomascaselli6139 Yes, you are right about DSD over HDMI. I checked my oppo 105 manual and it states sacd dsd over hdmi. From manual…”DSD - SACD Direct Stream Digital (DSD) data is output over HDMI without any conversion… If you use a receiver that supports HDMI v1.2a with DSD over HDMI”.

[@IndySnowman]

I’m using a Nuprime CD transport with I2S to a Stellar Strata. Works great.

[@darrelstucky7876]

I am using an OPPO 103 that has an I2S modification (OPPOMOD) to output I2S audio to my Stellar Dac, and it works and sounds fantastic!

[@blastfromtheeast]

That was educational. I was not aware of Hdmi pin config vs. I2s pin config until I saw a post by Poetry on plastic mainly cause my system uses built-in dac of my integrated amp and built-in dac of my sacd player. Buyimg a dac to upgrade sacd output is a bit more challenging than it looks. I also read on a forum that plugging in hdmi to an i2s port might damage the circuits which worried me more.

[@carminedesanto6746]

Great explanation..I was under the impression that an output of I2S was to be fed to a reclocker and then to the dac 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@roig8578]

You can try a DDC from Denafrips (Hermes model) or Musician Audio (Leo model), which has a configurable I2S output, and adjust the I2S configuration in it to match the Gain Cell DAC I2S configuration. I have never done it, it but could be possible.

[@roybatty-]

Why aren't more amps incorporating hdmi? And why hasn't the look of AVR's changed since 1990?

[@kevinsilvernale6953]

Jay’s Audio transport implements I2s as well.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but when Paul implies that PS Audio invented I2S that is not true. Perhaps he is saying that they were the first to use an HDMI cable to transport I2S data between devices. I2S was introduced in 1986 by Phillips and is used by virtually every DAC chip since to accept clock and signal data into the chip. Within a DAC or a CDP I2S often travels on a ribbon cable, a pcb trace or ufl coax cables. Typically the signal is not durable for more than a few inches. I imagine PS Audio decided to use HDMI cable is for connecting separates like the transport to DAC to move I2S over longer distances.

[@trajan350]

He doesn’t imply that they invented it at all.

[@shipsahoy1793]

He said exactly what you said in your second sentence !Obviously, you have difficulty paying attention to videos and comprehending what you’re hearing, so you shouldn’t be commenting unless you are sure of what was said. If you want to share your knowledge of all things “Digital” then just start your own damn KZbin channel instead of playing the smart ass lol

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

@@trajan350 That's good. Thanks for clearing that up :)

[@Adamsvidios]

Lol,he clearly implied that

[@shipsahoy1793]

@@Adamsvidios Paul stated that they invented the standard that is “used for running I2C through an HDMI cable.” NOT THAT THEY INVENTED I2C… C’mon, do you guys understand English ?? Retards should not be writing YT posts!

[@RuiChambel]

Oppomod makes/sells a i2S card upgrade for the Oppo 93/103/103D and 203 Blu-ray players, but some assembly is required

[@iainford7592]

I have a Chinese transport based in the Philips CDM4 by C-Dream that has i2s over HDMI output, my DAC I have (C-Dream) was capable of receiving once I added a receiver board so I could connect them together.

[@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter]

I got a Westinghouse dvd player, yall jealous?

[@leslieschroeder8278]

Hi I own a cd transport from Jay’s Audio. That transport does use isquard s2: CDT 3 mk2

[@stimpy1226]

I'd like to know why you made your own HDMI standard when it already has a pin out that is it's standard.

[@ptg01]

He is talking about I2S using HDMI connector (some also use RJ45's) which is very different from the normal HDMI that usually carries audio and video...

[@thomasgunn4146]

Jay’s audio cd transport uses I2s 🙂

[@synaptichorizons]

Great set of comments (origination history) about the the I2S over HDMI connector and Protocol creation. Never considered that there might have been a controversy (compatibility issue) about using the HDMI connector on various 3rd party CD Digital Transports with I2S (through their I2S HDMI connectors) with PS Audio equipment! I'm receiving the Shanling ET3 Dedicated Digital CD Transport that claims to support I2S over it's HDMI connector. "Shanling ET3 offers a range of standard digital outputs, but Shanling also added more advanced I2S output and even USB output. Allowing for the transport of super High-Res files, above the limits of standard coaxial or optical outputs." Soon as the PS Audio StellarGold DAC arrives, will be testing the Shanling over it's I2S HDMI type connector to the StellarGold DAC's I2S HDMI ins and tell you if it works. However to be complete about the the I2S connector issue. Is it true that when an individual uses a digital transport that provides connectivity over a Native I2S connector cable (not the HDMI version) that those pretty much will be compatible?

[@andydelle4509]

An HDMI cable has four high speed balanced wire pairs. RGB video and a clock signal in addition to several control signals. They are identical wires types but the HDMI standard specifies not only which signal goes to which pin, but also the polarity of the balanced pair. So there many ways to use an HDMI cable for I2S but unless you adopted the PS Audio standard, it's a crap shoot. Some audio manufactures did adopt the PS audio standard. Some did not. And some offer DIP switches or jumpers to re-configure the cable pinouts to some degree. So it's best to research any two products that use an HDMI cable for I2S. If you are handy with a soldering iron, you can cut the HDMI cable and cross wire it as needed. I2S is relatively low bandwidth compared to standard HDMI so a hacked cable should still work flawlessly. And to that point, don't get caught up with expensive audiophile HDMI cables. They will make no difference with I2S. (They don't for true HDMI either but that;s another discussion)

[@chrisgregory5101]

Would one of those $60-100 HDMI-to-I2S converters found on eBay allow you to connect your SACD Player to the PS Audio DAC?

[@Paulmcgowanpsaudio]

Not sure about the specific brand but yes, an HDMI to I2S converter works.

[@navinadv]

@@PaulmcgowanpsaudioI understand that PS Audio did develop a protocol that sends I2S data over HDMI. However since then, several companies (many of them Chinese) such as iFi, Topping, SMSL, Guatard etc have also adopted the “PS Audio I2S protocol” for the I2S inputs on their DACs. Even Pi2 Design I think adopted the same protocol for their Raspberry Pi Transport.

[@davemeyers2633]

Project has a Transport that outputs I2S over a HDMI connection, Not sure if it is pin compatible. but they do have one

[@skipgordon5382]

Jays Audio CDT2 and CDT3 have I2S output

[@ThinkingBetter]

Best is to let the DAC manage the clocking of samples precisely and enable the buffering of the digital audio data flow on the receiving end of the DAC such that you avoid jitter effectively. In the past digital audio was done with messy architectures where the DAC clock master was not located where it optimally needs to be located (= inside the DAC) and thus the DAC was not fully in control of the DAC timing e.g. PLL was needed with TOSLINK. USB (best is USB-C) is excellent in managing the digital audio flow asynchronously allowing the DAC to be clock master. I don't really see the light in I2S used externally other than for the specific case of using a CD player (or call it transport) where the disc player runs at its own clock, you can use I2S to shift the clock master function to the CD player. Better would be to use a USB connection and run the data asynchronously with the DAC in 100% control of the timing of sample conversion.

[@InDueTime25]

So I just purchased a meter long i2s hdmi cable from ebay that happens to be made by you. It looks like an an older model but I can't find it anywhere to get the specs so it must not be for retail. It has a silver plating with PS audio logo in blue with a black braided cable. I bought it for that reason alone because it was made by ps audio. Any idea on specs with my description?

[@andydelle4509]

Paul, using the HDMI connector for I2S was a great idea. And as we know I2S is not compatible with HDMI. But I am curious if you are using standard LVDS HDMI cable interface chips or are you just using the HDMI cable and some other balanced signal technology like RS422?

[@newfguy1826]

Jays Audio CDT Mk 2 and 3 have I2S connector for CD transport options

[@AV-MusicMan]

With the oppo, you can rip the sacd dsd layer to a dsf file. Then you can play on any cd player and dac combo. The HDMI is the physical cable connection and only ps audio dac with sacd capability can decrypt the signal in the other side of the cable. That creates the closed loop Paul is referring too. It is a common misconception to think that you can export sacd dsd layer to a external dac via an sacd player like oppo 105. What I do to get around this is take the oppo 105 and use an internet hack to rip the dsd files in sacd to dsf file(s). There is a usb boot disk that does this. Then I convert that dsf file to wave format. Then I burn the wave files to dvd or cd and play on ps audio perfect wave transport to Berkeley dac. The perfect wave or direct stream can play wave files on either dvd or cd, so it’s really handy! Voila, sacd layer exposed!

[@dontfollowrc]

HiFi Rose’s RS130 digital transport uses I2S over HDMI.

[@PanAmStyle]

It’s very expensive and does not have a CD/SACD built in.

[@rbyington22]

That's what I use PS Audio Dac and a hi fi rose 130

[@tacofortgens3471]

I wonder if you can get a converter box that turns spdif to i2s and reclock it and send it to the dac. I remember Paul talk about it

[@PanAmStyle]

Paul: When you say DACs that support HDMI audio generally aren’t very good, can you elaborate (without naming names, of course)? Is it simply a matter that those DACs are cheaper and hence don’t include the best circuit designs and parts? Or is there something inherent in HDMI audio that precludes them from being “high end”?

[@DynissRainer]

Simply put, HDMI is a completely different signal / protocol. It just uses the same cable as I2S.

[@williammurray9055]

Is the I2S interface the same for DVD, Blu Ray, 4K Blu Ray players/transports?

[@iainford7592]

No, the i2s protocol is different.

[@carefortops8976]

Musicnote MU21 is connected to my Topping D70S over I2S

[@lonniefarmer7067]

Thanks!

[@sainaveenbali]

Which cable will you recommend

[@cengeb]

2.3 ft. with green snake skin

[@timothystockman7533]

I have Douk Audio USB interface which has a I2S output.

[@RobertGerman]

OSI model?

[@D800Lover]

Hah, I have that Digital Scope that is under the two rolls of solder. It's a Siglent and not the most expensive but very good nonetheless.

[@MiMi-06130]

no hear difference ?

[@iainford7592]

I compared optical and RCA SPDIF to i2s and the i2s connection is better, more open and detailed.

[@MiMi-06130]

@@iainford7592 ok i ll believe and trust in you but on youtube on smartphone i cant hear difference

[@nathanbell6962]

Denafrips

[@Mark-lq3sb]

Yes, I use a Terminator Plus DAC with I2S coming from a PS Audio transport. (not their newest version transport.) The "old fashion" R2R sounds very good, but the latest DACs that aren't using the standard chips (such as PS Audio's newest DAC) are becoming very popular. The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC uses no chip. I haven't had the opportunity to listen to these types of DACs yet. Maybe I should try-out PS Audio's new DAC on their 30 day program. We'll see...........

[@liamporter1137]

Some higher end DAC supports I2S input, some even support 2 inputs, but there aren't any or many streamer and transport that support that. What a waste of resource.

[@teslatalk42069]

The New Hifi rose 130 transport uses I2S

[@trajan350]

So does the new Eversolo A8

[@grumpy9478]

well, Paul... this is what you get for offering an open source sw protocol to the public-at-large at no cost & no support... what's going on in high end digital audio product integration these days sometimes reminds me of what it was like integrating PC components back in the '80s.

[@edd2771]

It certainly seems to me that your unconventional use of HDMI has confused this customer as well as others. I fully expected you to say that if he was unhappy with what he’s learned, he could return the unit to you or the music room (pre owned status not withstanding). Instead, you use the situation as leverage to sell him a $7k transport. One of the more distasteful videos I’ve seen from this channel.

[@shipsahoy1793]

Wow, that seems a little harsh.

[@edd2771]

@@shipsahoy1793 I’m open to correction. If I misunderstood something. But if not, I’d just say that when someone like me recaps some things that are said in a video that on their face, and without any embellishment, appear to paint a picture where a manufacturer admits that something is both confusing and consequential, and offers no way out of this self-caused situation other than an up-sell, the articulation of those facts can come off as a little, well, harsh. But we mustn’t shoot the messenger. And keep in mind also that PS sells batches of returned/repaired gear to TMR- They are both in Boulder and partner in this way from time to time. So there is an easy path back to the manufacturer in this particular case if PS audio wanted to make it right.

[@trajan350]

Or…hear me out now…he could just use one of the other output/inputs. That DAC accepts USB, Coax, and Optical as well. Paul’s comment and video is to address using the I2s input on the DAC and cleared up confusion for others that might try to use HDMI outputs. He didn’t say that the DAC simply won’t work with the CD transport. Talk about flipping out over a non-issue.

[@shipsahoy1793]

@@edd2771 Wow, I think you’re way overthinking this, but my point was just this.. because they developed a standard for sending I2S data over an HDMI cable, does that mean that they should be under scrutiny of any ignorance on the part of the customer base.. I don’t know, that seems like a philosophical question without a clear answer.

[@shipsahoy1793]

@@trajan350 I’m glad somebody had their coffee this morning. It’s amazing how many people think with their hearts and not with their minds lol

[@turboboost99]

So, my Bryston BDA-3.14 isn't a high end DAC?? I use the HDMI inputs with my SACD player. I'll put up my Bryston DAC against ANY PS Audio DAC any day of the week. I am amazed at the volume of bad (and self-serving) advice this guy spews every day.

[@Raymondey]

First

[@NoEgg4u]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXmbmqlqo5eemdE

[@Mark-lq3sb]

Well... I hope Paul doesn't delete my reply.

[@cengeb]

So you and nobody else...makes something that is basically quackery. Ya know why the CD and SACD, and DVD, Blu-ray sold so well, it was implemented as an international standard. you invented a nothing burger. Even apple had to conform to an international USB standard...cus it matters.

[@Mark-lq3sb]

Speaking of quackery..........................

[@cengeb]

@@Mark-lq3sb Quack Quack.....EMM Labs does DSD, PS Audio is not working with reality. Using an HDMI connector for some other format is causing unnecessary confusion...TASCAM does DSD as does Korg...without non standard stuff

[@Mark-lq3sb]

@@cengeb lol! Go ahead, try to plug in a I2S into a HDMI or vice-a-versa see how far you get. lol! Apparently, you are a confused duck... Quack!

[@iainford7592]

How wrong, I2s is superior.

[@cengeb]

@@iainford7592 When your idea and concepts doesn't become an industry standard, it's a failure. CD, became a standard, VHS became standard,DVD standards, even cassette tapes, standards. When you sell something you keep claiming is superior, when it's not, it's called nonsense. Word salad nonsense

[@ajithchandrakumara]

can we get I2S data from a PC to a DAC

[@middleearthltd]

Yes with a DDC