Psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais On The Problem With Stoicism

Ryan Holiday talks with high performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais (Seattle Seahawks, Finding Mastery Podcast) about what he thinks the Stoics got wrong.
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[@adamproductions4529]

Stoicism isn’t about rejecting our feelings but rather understanding them so we can master ourselves

[@coachbiff09]

Exactly. Remember how Epictetus and those that came before define philosophy.......always seeking knowledge......that especially includes knowledge of one's own emotions.

[@themacocko6311]

The original teachings of stoicism taught emotional suppression. Ryan changes the teachings because today we know that's bullshit. Instead of actually addressing the issue he dances around it and basically lies.

[@adamproductions4529]

@coachbiff09 Yeah most people who criticize stoicism don’t understand it really. There’s a lot of parallels with Taoism philosophy.

[@tokusatsu56]

​@adamproductions4529 I had an interesting convo with my Chinese history and philosophy professor where I made this connection and we really delved into it, definitely very fascinating comparing the parallels between the two.

[@adamproductions4529]

@@tokusatsu56 Yeah I think Stoicism is easier for us to grasp in the western world, but I can’t say that’s true for everyone. I’d like to be a Taoist however I’m too mired in western culture and materialistic values to really be able to make that leap.

[@darrengagliardi1540]

Ryan’s response is on the mark. Suppressing emotions is different than facing tough emotions, but then seeing them squarely for what they are and NOT reacting or overreacting based on what you are feeling. Mindfulness practice similarly teaches us that we need to face our emotions, but to calmly see them without distortion, etc. You pretty quickly realize that they’re just fleeting feelings and not as “real” as you assume them to be. This recognition allows you to respond appropriately instead of reacting emotionally, which is often inappropriate and unhelpful.

[@peripheralparadox4218]

Buddhism understands this clearly too. All psychologists are educated, but not all are wise.

[@jazzman2516]

Precisely. The stoics and the taoists are the wisest people on this planet.

[@Bobin10101]

@@peripheralparadox4218most faiths if you look deep enough point to universal truths

[@tuckerbugeater]

Cope

[@omniamericana2172]

​@@peripheralparadox4218"educated" to smugly dismiss all this ancient knowledge and just throw it away.

[@MrFiremagnet]

Stoicism to me is about awareness and taking responsibility for actions. And man can't be self-aware if he blocks his emotional responses, that might reveal some deeper truths about him. So, it is one of the major principles - to know yourself and accept the reality, that dictates understanding of sources of emotions and accepting the reality of having them, and the reality of that simple fact that it's absolutely okay to have them. It's more about regulating them in a healthy manner and doing best to not to be driven by the negative and destructive emotions.

[@ivermec-tin666]

Indeed. The objective is not to be at the mercy of one's emotions which could cause one to behave in ways that one might regret. Emotions cannot be eliminated or effectively systematically suppressed. What matters is what one does with their feeliings. Anger, passion, resentement, and etc are not to be indulged without any thought or care. That would be behavior without any consideration or responsibility. There would be no virtue in that.

[@rufuofrome]

Random stoner thoughts - To me it feels like enlightenment. Self-awareness an attempt too look at things with no bias and truly be the best person you can be. A Leader that doesn't want to lead but must. Someone who betters themself not for themselves but the people around them and the ones they love.

[@daanschone1548]

​@@rufuofromeYou could even say that there is no difference between bettering yourself for yourself or for others, because both benefit.

[@rufuofrome]

@@daanschone1548 Yes, this quote made me question myself. "He who blames others has long way to go on his journey. He who blames himself is halfway there, He who blames no one has arrived." I was depressed and literally went through every one of these phases. I was very ignorant and stubborn, so it has taken me since the pandemic to learn it but the last weeks have been crazy. Even when I posted this I didn't understand it. Seems crazy but I'd recommend the south park post COVID movies. If you can see it, You see if you can't you still got some work to do but most people probably over 90percent (Random Guess no fact) of people will never see it. I also believe you can't see it till you truly see yourself and the actions of others and the reasons why they do things. It's a wormhole so try to keep balance. Anyway before people think I'm crazy I'll stop, but good luck to you and anyone that reads this.

[@rufuofrome]

@@daanschone1548 Yes, I wanna tell my story because hopefully it helps you or others, this the quote that got me thinking about this. "He who blames others has long way to go on his journey. "He who blames himself is halfway there, He who blames no one has arrived." I went through all of these phases, I was depressed and ignorant. It has taken me so long to finally realize it. Looking into myself, I found out a lot about myself from figuring out I have ADHD from seeing patterns in others to seeing all my faults. I always hated school and dropped out because I thought it was stupid, as you can probably see in my grammar. But now I think I have arrived, and just want to learn and be the best and hopefully bring the people up around me with my actions. Sounds crazy but I'd recommend South Park Post COVID movies. Completely changed my view of the creators it's pure geniuses. Anyway I'll stop now before people think I'm crazy. Good luck on your journey and too anyone that reads this I got a new hobby now. Philosophy

[@mrmauriciosebastiany]

Great question! Awesome answer! Reading "The life of the Stoics" I cryed and sobbed on the Katho chapter...these are the feelings and compassion I feel are rightheous for a positive Stoic behavior. Thanks for sharing as always! Greetings from Brazil!

[@waffensuperninja]

I believe it was in Meditations (and could also appeared in many of the other stoic writings) that i read for a stoic to never refuse to help someone when they ask out of need, which to me is also a pretty compassionate and intrinsic in some way to what it means to be a stoic.

[@Robinson8491]

Never refusing help as you describe it is a rational cognitive decision, not a feeling of compassion. Spinoza is called a stoic...exactly because he dispells the virtue of feelings and strives for people to focus on rationalism

[@daanschone1548]

​@@Robinson8491But is compassion an emotion?

[@waffensuperninja]

@Robinson9714 compassion isn't a feeling. it's a decision.

[@jazzman2516]

Yes, but ascertaining whether or not they are in fact in need is the tricky part. A stoic must not be gullible, but wise and just.

[@ilonabaier6042]

I think Carl Jung would call it a feeling - using his definition of feeling as explained in his work nr. 6 - Psychological Types. Decision is thinking. @@waffensuperninja

[@edcampbell8176]

Talking about justice is what made me subscribe. Keep talking it. And, keep up the good work.

[@tuckerbugeater]

And who's Justice might that be

[@Bazzguit]

@@tuckerbugeater dis

[@retrojay86]

As opposed to what just watching your community or nation decline? ​@@tuckerbugeater

[@Dragondad22]

I really like this conversation. My perspective is that stoicism isn't the absence of emotion, it's mastery of them. A man can't fight a river, but he can channel it and change it's course. In terms of compassion, I would say that stoicism isn't the absence of compassion, but the proper application of it. It's understanding that giving the homeless man money may not be the best way to demonstrate compassion, but sitting with him, understanding his needs, and then acting. There's a great book called When Helping Hurts that can help someone navigate this conversation and is especially interesting if you apply stoicism to it.

[@pj5873]

I have sort of a testimony. A year ago I suffered from OCD in form of intrusive thoughts. That‘s when it broke out and got really bad. So I started to recover actively by reading books of people who have recovered from it and to understand how it works. So basically what you need to do to recover is to always stay in the present, not engaging with your thoughts, feeling your emotions and not supressing them or pushing them away, to face all the uncomfortable and scary thoughts head on from the beginning and eventually they’ll fade away by themselves. Then, I stumbled upon stoicism and basically what it teaches is more or less how you recover from OCD. That‘s why I‘ve become so drawn to stoicism. The way you recover from OCD is to always remain calm even though inside you‘re going through hell but slowly but surely you heal emotionally, you become more and more unshakeable etc. Now I can say that I almost fully recovered from OCD which just one year ago made me think I will never be able to live a normal live again.

[@aguy559]

I would add one slight correction- You don’t face them until they fade; you face them whether or not they fade. Let them stay as long as they like and never want them to leave. You can’t control them, anyway. So accept their existence.

[@pj5873]

@@aguy559 Yes, that‘s true. I just said it more simplified. You don‘t want them to go but eventually they will disappear.

[@adradixnostri]

Congratulations! Really happy that you made such big progress.

[@aaronbieleck8305]

If I may, have you ever read about Highly Sensitive People? I’ve experienced similar thoughts/tendencies you are referring to, and many say that’s OCD. But after reading about HSP’s (and more specifically HSP men) it really struck a cord with me. It’s not just about sensitivity in the purely emotional way some think, but instead its people that have a higher sensitivity to many things. Light, sound, taste, body language ect. A greater connection to art, music, nature, people. Those of us that yearn for deep connections and meaning. Some see it as a weakness (again especially in men) but I see it as an undoubted strength. HSP’s I know have almost a sixth sense when it comes to reading people and situations, and noticing the subtleties of life and the world. Unfortunately it can kind of parallel OCD with similar intrusive thoughts, high levels of self criticism/questioning, propensity for becoming overstimulated/overwhelmed, and a greater need for order… but I think if one can recognize the strength of being an HSP and perhaps lean on the Stoicism virtues where the challenges are concerned it’s a pretty good balance. Sorry for the long reply, and maybe none of this applies, but your comment also struck a cord with me. If you’re interested, I read the book ‘The Highly Sensitive Man’ and for me it was enlightening. Regardless, best of luck on your journey! - Aaron

[@pj5873]

@@aaronbieleck8305 Actually, people who develop OCD (especially in form of intrusive thoughts) oftentimes are very sensitive, creative and pretty intelligent. These intrusive thoughts feel like real threats all the time and your perception is extremely affected so that ridicoulus scenarios appear like a possible real danger to you. They trigger extreme anxiety. Also they just don‘t come in form of thoughts but you see them visually kind of (especially in the beginning when it‘s still really bad). OCD has specific topics that a lot of people who have it struggle with like religion, harmful thoughts, moral thoughts etc.and they often come as "what if" thoughts. For example you stand on the balcony and suddenly you think "what if I uncontrollably jump down and kill myself". This thought, then, triggers a high amount of anxiety to the point where you do safety behaviours to feel relieved temporarily such as going back inside for example in this case. So, to beat it you must not do any safety behabiours but sit with the anxiety. For example in this case you could be like "Ok, I guess I‘ll jump down then". But the thing is of course you won‘t do it it‘s just so you can feel the anxiety in its entirety. And using logic only makes it worse as logic can’t beat fear. it’s a safety behaviour. So the only way to heal is to feel the feeling and not think about it or about a way out of it. I hope this explained OCD a bit better but of course being highly sensitive plays a huge role in getting OCD as I always had been more sensitive before getting it. But the genetics play a huge role too. After recovering , however, you become kind of less sensitive as a lot of things don‘t trigger reactions in you anymore that used to trigger reactions. That‘s because you‘ve automatized not reacting to thoughts or feelings in the wake of the recovery since you have to do it 24/7 as best as you can. Also, even if you don‘t have severe OCD applying this same technique is beneficial for everyone. You literally heal mentally/ emotionally (neuroplasticity) and become more authentic because you are way more in tune with your inner self but of course it‘s very uncomfortable most of the time but worth it in the long run. Also best of luck to you!

[@saneman7177]

From the various schools of understanding I’ve read, humans are physical, emotional, mental, & spiritual beings in that order… stoicism from what I understand is the acknowledgment that the mind is superior to the 2 latter… people spend their lives repressing “negative” emotions & cause themselves all kinds of problems without realising emotions are just your personal guides, not who you are… some good some bad, but they are just a part of who you are at a complete level… they should be felt & acknowledged & released in the moment, but the mind controls how you interpret & react to the emotions… it’s no different to the body telling you you’re tired & to stop when you exercise, your mind knows it will benefit you & your health to keep going & finish the exercise…. Appreciate you posting this, you were clearly at a higher understanding but you were very respectful of his views… people using their emotions to dictate how they behave has become a real problem in recent times, it’s something I always saw as a problem due to the fact everyone is taught cognitive intelligence in schools & there’s zero emphasis on emotional intelligence.

[@FeralFoxFilms]

Best conversation I've seen on here x

[@etluky6365]

Leave it to a psychologist to be completely uneducated on the virtues of stoicism. To practice stoicism is to be in the most acute state of emotional perception as well as the most metered and collected state of emotional reaction. To be a stoic demands of one to be hyper-aware of their emotional state specifically regarding emotional reaction. Stoicism is the opposite of emotional ignorance. It is the epitome of emotional intelligence.

[@stevekrewson4931]

I have been watching your videos and reading the daily Stoic email for a while now this may be one of the best videos I have seen. Thanks, Ryan.

[@SomeGuy699]

Oh, please! There is already too much emotion!

[@MrFiremagnet]

You being upset by the fact those dudes are just speaking about emotions is an ironical evidence of how one can benefit from being more in touch with them.

[@themacocko6311]

Whoa, no need to get all emotional there bro.

[@dw5523]

To me, I’ve never interpreted stoicism as the suppression of emotions, but having the discipline to keep them in frame. To feel appropriately about something, to express those feelings in constructive and powerful ways that build up instead of tearing down. To be truly compassionate to that which is truly deserving of compassion.

[@JaysonT1]

Probably because you listen to others teach you and not directly read the stoics work. The writings of the stoics directly taught emotional suppression and lacked any self compassion Ryan is in the business of selling stoicism and knowing that science has thoroughly found these stratagees not only ineffective but digressing and harmful, he tries to put a spin on the teachings so he can save face and claim their teachings were perfect.

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

Good discussion

[@barkomatic]

I liked this video and think more conversations like this are worthwhile. I don't think denying your emotions over an event or pretending they don't exist in you is healthy or a tenant of stoicism. Grief is necessary and human, but adjusting your perceptions can help you recover from grief or anger more quickly than you otherwise would. Some never recover from these emotions and start a cascade of bad decisions based on them that only causes more problems to be upset about.

[@IndigoHazelnut]

Ps.. I would love to hear you speak more about the pillar of justice. Keep up the great work

[@luciusseneca2715]

A large part of the Justice pillar of Stoicism is civic duty, which can include public office and political activity, but doesn't necessarily require it. Things like being a law-abiding citizen, not causing public disorder (such as participating in riots), and withholding judgment until sufficient evidence is gathered, all are included. In an era of political polarization, self-help narcissism, and rapid decline in community bonds, this can be somewhat novel, and perhaps open to straw-man attacks.

[@pseudo_ra]

Stoicism is compassionate. To say it’s not is a misinterpretation of stoicism. Marcus Aurelius stresses the importance of caring for other human beings time and time again even when they’ve done something wrong.

[@ericsierra-franco7802]

As does Seneca.

[@unholymethod]

What he’s campaigning for is making decisions based on others emotions, which is just projection. So in essence it’s the same thing as making decisions based on your own. Being stoic is to remove emotion from decision, in hopes that you’ll learn the lessons needed to rationalize better decisions in the future.

[@ivermec-tin666]

This seems to be an imagined "problem". Stoicism is very much about compassion within the context of an ordered existence. This is the groundwork for justice in this world. I think that Dr. Gervais has misinterpreted the Stoics and stoicism and manufactured a "problem" where none exists essentially.

[@pseudo_ra]

Exactly.

[@fthurman]

I think stating it in such a way puts the onus on the person pointing out the problem, in a way that refuses to hear that even Ryan identified that it's not unheard of (as in the case of the asshole who sued his workplace for wrongful termination) for folks to interpret it in that exact way. The problem exists. People do you use this belief system/practice/whathaveyou in a twisted way to, again as Ryan said, "be a better sociopath". You can choose to ignore it and blame the people pointing it out if you want, but perhaps at some point you can reflect on if THAT is in alignment with the "groundwork for justice in this world".

[@ivermec-tin666]

@@fthurman No. I ignore nothing here in this video. The burden is always on the one making a claim. He has failed to persuade me, and has made a case based upon his interpretation of the modern vernacular use of the word "stoic" as opposed to making his case from the body of work of any particular stoic. The fact is that most people understand stoicism to be something that is not grounded in the actual work of the great stoic authors. This is a limited modern reinterpretation of stoicism by virtue of the modern interpretation of the characteristics that are "stoic". This is linguistic sophistry. None of the great stoic authors of antiquity either advocated or embodied this modern fantasy of being cold, emotionless, and utterly rational at all times and in all things. That is a charicature of what stoicism is. One does not stumble upon ground truths by indulging in charactures or lampoons. This is simply not a serious or pragmatic method of inquiry. It is at heart entirely self referential and circular. Therefore it is incapable of either discovering or creating any understanding of the supposed subject at hand. Like a merry go round, it takes you on what feels like a journey, but that is an illusion. This is an amusement park ride that simply spins you around in a small circle.

[@fthurman]

you've proven my point @@ivermec-tin666

[@ryanvancil1304]

That is not an accurate description of why there is "justice." Justice does not derive from compassion in the most prevalent systems of justice - justice is blind, it is devoid of or neutral regardless of emotion, feeling or any other subjective impetuous for implementing justice.

[@PoisedPerspectives]

I think the only problem is the misconception attached to Stoicism. The stoics are always on their way to the mastery of emotions and reactions having the eye to look at any circumstance at different angles first before anything else. Kudos to Ryan for clearing this up!

[@zhubajie6940]

Ryan gets it. Stoics are not jerks but fight for Justice. To reflect, the Stoics' emotional impulses are not excessive nor diminished emotions. Instead, they are at the correct level and well thought out in contrast to unthinking outbursts which may more often than not be damaging to others instead of helping others flourish.

[@BenjaminIMeszaros]

Love this conversation. Probably one of the more important parts of modern stoicism to wrestle with

[@matthewbarber4505]

To me, the biggest flaw of stoicism is the assumption that a person's basic nature is to be "rational." After studying other philosophies, especially Hume's, as well as psychology and neurobiology, I think the basic nature of humans is fundamentally irrational. If we are going to live "according to nature," then one has to come to terms with their own irrationality. The fear of death is a great example. Marcus admonished himself that such fear is irrational and only children fear death. Eastern philosophies are also big on this, but from the perspective of wholeness and impermanence. My issue with these approaches is that the fear of death is fundamental to survival and all living creatures have some level of it. While it may be psychologically comforting to perceive your death as an inevitable, necessary, and holistic event, such beliefs provide no evolutionary advantage and won't help you to escape from a lion or a bear trying to eat you. Earnest Becker theorized that the fear of death is fundamental to all human beliefs and behaviors, which I think is true. To me, both Stoicism and Eastern Philosophies try to short circuit this in ways that are not always helpful. That isn't to say that these philosophies aren't still helpful and valuable in other ways, certainly to take the edge off an extreme fear of death. I think that a truly honest and comprehensive philosophy needs to account for these facts in a way that does not dismiss or minimalize them.

[@Papinka3900]

Indeed, stoicism isn't emotionless... which at the core is doing the most good one can. Passions that tend to lead to negative actions are not aligned to doing good and are to be controlled. Other emotions like compassion and kindness definitely are aligned to the virtues.

[@vanessaburdine4865]

The way your nervous system responds to stimuli is itself a brute fact. But you can step in to mitigate in different ways. But you can’t by conscious effort will yourself to not feel it. Compassion is learning to work with the facts of your nervous system.

[@rodblues6832]

Marcus Aurelius's Meditations is one long tome about having compassion for others, having infinite patience with others, and showing as much love as possible to others all while being very strict with oneself.

[@JaysonT1]

Yes, which is it's fault. He should have been teaching compassion for self.

[@rodblues6832]

@@JaysonT1 it depends on what you mean by self love. If you mean putting oneself on the course of self development all the way to reaching one’s potential, then paths like stoicism are about as self loving as they come.

[@mariussavatier4155]

The goal of Stoicism isn't to suppress emotions but rather to minimize the occurrence, length, and strength of negative emotions.

[@alejandro4300]

@4:15 Epictetus quotes one time Socrates was very angry at a slave, and he said to him I would like to hit you right now but I'm too angry, thus delaying punishment because of its impaired judgment due to his emotional state.

[@danielmacd4274]

"I am a survivor of a concentration camp. My eyes saw what no person should witness: gas chambers built by learned engineers. Children poisoned by educated physicians. Infants killed by trained nurses. Women and babies shot by high school and college graduates. So, I am suspicious of education. My request is this: Help your children become human. Your efforts must never produce learned monsters, skilled psychopaths or educated Eichmanns. Reading, writing, and arithmetic are important only if they serve to make our children more human" Dr. Haim Ginott, Child Psychologist and Holocaust survivor

[@TheGringoSalado]

“For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Romans Stoicism: Prudence Justice Fortitude Temperance + Catholicism: Faith Hope and Love

[@Joefest99]

What is this dude talking about?! Modern people are INSANELY emotional! All they talk about is how they “Feel”.

[@scottk1525]

Seems a little bit like Ryan isn't quite sniffing what Michael is scratching. First of all, "Justice" is not synonymous with "Compassion." Not even close. But even if it was, whether or not the stoic has the same goal in mind as the emotional guy isn't really what Michael is getting at here. Second, I think what he's getting at is that sometimes it's appropriate, healthy, and even superior as a matter of efficacy to let emotion be the force that governs behavior. He uses the example of compassion, but surely we can all remember times where we accomplished something through sheer emotional horsepower that we may not have been able to accomplish otherwise. But by the time the stoic recognizes, compartmentalizes, and overanalyzes the emotion they're having, it has lost all of its useful thrust. I think that's what he's saying. Sometimes it's ok, if not preferable to let emotions steer the ship.

[@felleniron1729]

My understanding is compassion can be a driver for justice when appropriate, so a skill or talent to hone, and emotion is not up to you. It happens outside of your control. It’s how you respond to emotion that stoicism helps with. So in your example, strong emotion can and should resolve to strong and quick action, just as you say. And sometimes strong emotion should lead to deciding this is not something you should have an opinion about even more so act on. Just my thoughts. Best to you.

[@twistoflex2983]

I think the thing that is missed is that the majority of people who are guided towards Stoicism are humans who already have very high levels of empathy, kindness, compassion and understanding. They need to learn how to set boundaries, regulate emotions, not take things personally. You don't see people with narcissistic tendencies being self aware enough to learn Stoicism.

[@SierraGax]

Stoicism and emotional intelligence go well with one another. Stoicism allows you to face your emotions and remain grounded while you work through them and bear witness to what they have to say. Stoicism allows you to not let your emotions sweep you off your feet and become blended with them. You see them and feel them but you remain grounded and know that you are not your emotions. I like to use the metaphor of a parent with their children. I am the parent Andy emotions are my children. If my child is upset I’m not going to lock them up or hit them for being sad or mad. But I’m also not going to let their tantrum or sadness overwhelm me. My job as a parent is to love them and be compassionate and listen to what they are feeling and help them to get through their difficult emotion. Stoicism helps people remain in that role of Parent.

[@requiemdexter]

It's wild how humanity is still in a state of pre-history when it comes to justice/ethics/compassion.

[@dantarradellas7351]

As a practicing stoic I Love Ryans works. I have to agree with Michael in the sense that stoicism is sometimes overly intellectual and lacks the intangible. Michael describes it as compassion, which is a start to the unspoken, unthinking mystery of ‘the way’ of eastern philosophies that I find combine well together.

[@Scott-sx1bf]

I agree wholeheartedly with your point that eastern philosophies complement stoicism. I try to embrace and integrate this idea in my daily life. The results have seemed entirely positive to me, and I believe others who I interact with on a regular basis.

[@arshaddahlan]

​@@Scott-sx1bfI believe a lot of the different global philosophies have a lot of overlap despite cultural differences obviously. I'm a Muslim from South Asia (Sri Lanka) whilst being a fan of both Greco-Roman philosophy (such as the Stoics) and also Eastern philosophies

[@melliecrann-gaoth4789]

I agree. That describes how I try put this in my life as a roadmap. Thank you for describing this well.

[@JaysonT1]

Stoicism came from eastern philosophies.

[@ericsierra-franco7802]

@@JaysonT1 Stoicism did not come from Eastern philosophies. Where do you get this nonsense from?

[@Emesis_0]

The title should be, “Dr Michael Gervais doesn’t understand Stoicism”.

[@ericsierra-franco7802]

Bingo! 🎉👍🏻

[@Aliens-Are-Our-Friends2027]

You must examine your beliefs, most of which were hammered into us from parents, teachers. You must see if past trauma affects any of these

[@jonathanklein7875]

The ultimate goal of Stocism was the pursuit of Virtue. This means honesty and ethical treatment of other people and the world. It's not just a set of tools for getting yourself ahead.

[@ericsierra-franco7802]

@@jonathanklein7875 Yes! Very well stated.

[@jimhull3103]

Tolerant with others. Strict with yourself. These words from Marcus Aurelius are key to my view of this discussion. Compassion goes beyond tolerance, but the spirit is the same when seeking justice.

[@hidetoedwarduno7681]

Buddhism addresses this perfectly I think, you can live no different than before in action or practice but it's your relationship with your emotions & internal world that is different, they say, you are less ATTACHED to the emotion or thing that someone did to you that creates an emotion. You still get mad, but you're less & less attached (indulge in the attachment or pushing away (aversion)) to it & eventually can catch yourself in the act & it never takes off, causing you stress or especially, causes you to punch someone.

[@tranquil2706]

Good dialog. A lot of common ground. People are too quick to put philosophies in closed mental boxes: they all too often overlap, either at the edges or even in the central thoughts. I find stoicism to have similarities not only with its classical cousin epicureanism, but also with buddhism.

[@audrey04021]

This was great, but I would have liked to have heard Dr. Gervais' comment after Ryan's final comment in this video.

[@ryanward8746]

"Be strict with yourself and kind to others." Marcus said it himself.

[@southside_comrade]

People really think we’re trying to be emotionless. We’re only trying to be completely fine with any emotion we have inside. To be able to remain calm and poised throughout. To not have emotional breakdowns.

[@robustgluecklich]

With this video you absolutely hit my personal view of stoicism. At the same time, you dispel the prejudices that Europeans often harbor about so-called "Silicon Valley stoicism". Thank you very much for that.

[@jesserhodes7430]

Too much compassion is what got us to where we are now. The reality is that life is hard, even in modern times. We need to instill the lesson of hard work and determination in our children. Let them know without crushing their spirit, the world is tough, unfair, and unforgiving, but even so, life is always worth the effort to proceed through tough times, in the name of moving forward.

[@saintoflastresorts2272]

You can have compassion and be stoic. It's like a fat friend that wants get fit by weightlifting. I can practice compassion but that person has to carry their own weight.

[@ericsierra-franco7802]

There's no such thing as "too much compassion".

Hope you have a wonderful day, fellow Stoics ☮️♥️

[@Guts-the-Berserker]

4:26 even more so Stoicism is about knowing when it is the right time to punch. Many stoics were fighters, soldiers, or just protectors.

[@Agatesforbrains]

Stoicism is not feeling emotions, it's handling those feelings especially the less pleasant or social feelings, inside. It's like closure some of us need to gain closure from the other party, stoics get their closure internally.

[@madhavcb8168]

I still didn't get the answer or an understanding from this video. As Michael wondered about emotions, their role and how they play, I kept thinking about it too since I was introduced to stoicism. I wonder where empathy and compassion come into stoicism and how they work.

[@Scott-sx1bf]

Good conversation. I personally like the justice side of stoicism, and would like to hear more on that.

[@hermanhelmich]

5 ⭐️ discussion Brought me some new point of views

[@booperdee2]

stoicism as i understand it is to do the right thing despite emotion or feeling. To have an intense emotion and to act in such a way that an observer couldnt know how you feel. It sounds like a reasonable thing to say that being more compassionate would be the right thing to do, but as with all things there is a line where compassion becomes counterintuitive. For example pretty much everyone reading this comment could give to a charity, but they dont, why? wouldnt that be compassionate? but its because with self preservation they would be able to theoretically become more compassionate in the future. When does compassion lead to dependency? is it selfish to be compassionate to strangers equal to or more than people i know? All these things are a lot more complex than "be more empathetic". Also heart pounding is not an emotion, its a physiological reaction to an emotion, there is no separation between feeling and emotion

[@alexshewan]

For me, stoicism breeds rational thinking. An initial reaction towards something happening to me, be it good or bad will generate an impulsive though or initial impression, but that's subject to change with this new framework that can filter out these thoughts & emotions accordingly. If someone boosts your ego, ego is the enemy. Dont get ahead of yourself, stay focused because that high can turn to a low real fast. If you're criticized, its a choice to dwell on it or feel sad. Own what you do, and take the time do it right so that there is no question of right or wrong, the choice was simply mine.

[@thesmallcheval]

Well said!

[@alejandrobarquero1347]

I really would like the podcast to take a more defiant and critial turn, sometimes we as students of stoicisms may become complicit with certain flaws in this philosophy.

[@PatrickKellyLoneCoder]

Misdefines stoicism and then uses that misdefinition to attack it. I've never seen a stoic philosopher say to suppress the emotions, only people who barely understand it say that.

[@JohnM...]

PROPER Stoicism is not about suppressing emotions. It’s not meant to be “oh, my entire family was slaughtered and my house burned down and I’m homeless. Ho-hum, Memento-Mori.” That’s bull.

[@maboleth]

I never saw stoicism as lack of emotions - quite the contrary. Say, you notice an arrogant old man in the supermarket that is slow and cumbersome and is arguing with the cashier. You can get easily annoyed by him, for standing in line for so long. But that won't change anything for the better. If you approach it with understanding like - he's old, probably alone, who knows what he went through. Maybe he's buying the sweets and groceries for his grandchildren or a disabled child - suddenly you come with much better understanding. Even if it isn't true. Even if he's just a jerk. That doesn't matter. You showed empathy and understanding, with a possibility that your thoughts could be true. You calmed yourself and resumed your daily life in the best possible way. THAT is what stoicism is to me.

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

I am studying REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Theory), which is based on the Stoics (especially Epictetus) and which was created in the 1950s by Albert Ellis. The REBT people would say we are not trying to get the person to get rid of emotion, but to have (more) rational emotions. Those emotions are much more useful and better. Let's use an example, you miss a flight. An irrational cognition would be - this must not happen, the world is a horrible place (the airline workers and pilots are horrible people!). This leads to unhealthy emotions like rage. REBT would attack that MUST and dispute it, saying, why MUST the airline be there when I want it? Am I God, a godlike being who commands airplanes? Why must the universe dance to my tune. And then when that is disputed, the person can have a more rational emotion based on a more rational (stoic) cognition such as, "although it is a hassle for me to miss my flight, and is disappointing, it is not horrible." This leads to the emotion of disappointment rather than rage. REBT is not about making people into robots who have no emotions.

[@pabf2745]

Work from emotion is pushing the behave as a pushy, without cortex, that is WHY YOU HAVE IT, to MANAGE motivation-emotion

[@jansvoboda4293]

It's clear in writings of Marcus Aurelius, that Stoicism is not about denying emotions, but getting proper perspective. Understand the source of the emotion and realize the wider context to calm yourself and decide wisely. Use the emotion for good, not for bad. “How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.” “Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart.” “When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” “The happiness of those who want to be popular depends on others; the happiness of those who seek pleasure fluctuates with moods outside their control; but the happiness of the wise grows out of their own free acts.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

[@wjtruax]

I really appreciate this conversation. Stoicism has so much to commend it, but it does have its flaws. Linked to this conversation is the unfortunate fact that classic Soticism asserts that there are strongly defined boundaries between the intellectual, physical, and emotional elements of being human. That stark division has become part of general western philosophy, so much so that Descartes’ human dualism reflected it (placing the “emotional” element within the his “mental” element). Fortunately, psychology now recognizes the “Cartesian Divide” (that very defined division between the mental and physical) as a false concept, because the linkages between the two (or three) are so great as to make impossible any absolute divisions. I would go so far as to say that the great divide in Christianity (between Catholic and Protestant theologies) is rooted in this philosophical divide. Classic Protestant theology separates “faith” from “works,” the intellectual from the physical. Catholic theology sees them so intertwined as to be wholly inseparable.

[@fthurman]

I am REALLY glad that Ryan addressed this by allowing Dr Gervais to mention that. The VAST amount of self-ascribed "stoics" that I've personally known HAVE been more like that asshole who sued his workplace - so I've always been sceptic when approaching it.

[@roenlezma9361]

Truer than truth! 👏

[@ericsierra-franco7802]

@@fthurman I seriously doubt they're Stoics. Most serious practicing Stoics don't advertise it or talk about with people they work with. And if they're jerks they aren't living as a Stoic.

[@CaptainSugarToes]

One thing I have to add in, is thoughts are also hard to control as well. The more I try to control thoughts it will persist into whatever I don’t want to think about. There are times where I could control thoughts. When it comes to intrusive thoughts and ocd that’s the one that you can’t control it give ocd fuel to keep attacking your mind.

[@pouetpouetdaddy5]

its not about controlling your thoughts, its about not reacting to it. Let it pass. And OCD is just another belief you have about yourself.

[@champabay4746]

You cannot control thoughts. The practice of meditation teaches us to observe the thoughts for what they are and move on.

[@CaptainSugarToes]

@@champabay4746 right not reacting to it. Controlling doesn’t work which a lot of people recommend

[@CaptainSugarToes]

@@pouetpouetdaddy5 exactly not reacting to it which I keep doing it and getting stuck in that bubble. What do you mean by OCD is something I believe about myself

[@mord0]

As a therapist, I’d recommend dis-identifying with the mind entirely, practicing acceptance of thoughts, building tolerance of uncertainty, and practicing self-compassion. The mind is like quicksand, the more you struggle against it, the more it pulls you into its vortex. Simply lie back and surrender, welcome it in. Also you can’t control spontaneous thought, you can control introducing new perspectives, attitudes, and ideas. Focus more on giving to life instead of getting certainty of the “what-ifs.” Hope this helps my friend

[@Musix4me-Clarinet]

My direct exposure to Stoic readings/literature is from Ryan. I can say that what I've read and been exposed to so far has helped me to be more compassionate towards others. I regularly think about what others are going through and comparing it to what I've experienced in my life, and that juxtaposition makes me feel more connected to them. I am much slower now to make judgements about people's thoughts and actions.

[@iananderson8288]

Stoicism and compassion are not exclusive to one another

[@Mr.KsThoughts]

I don’t recall stoicism having people sterilize themselves of emotions. There is a time and place for emotions, but today’s society seems to feed on emotions and this is why things are a disaster now. As someone who spent my life leading by emotions, life has been tough and countless bad decisions were made. I still have a lot of emotions, passion and compassion, but I have learned to keep them in the right place. To remove all emotions is to no longer be human. Through heightened states of emotions we make irrational decisions. What people do for love. When we are happy, don’t we seem to spend more money? Eat more? When we are angry, are we more destructive? Stoic ways teach (at least to me), to not let the emotional side be on your shoulders. It stands for self-accountability, holding yourself to higher standards and not to expect others to be that way, to rely on yours, use your skills for yourself and others, but also to promote self-growth and be a better version of yourself, to be a good example. To think for yourself. I think this psychologist really missed something. Maybe his schooling has programmed his mind to think a certain way. But maybe it is just me.

[@vukasika]

The psychologist representation of stoicism suggested to me that he did not have an accurate understanding of what stoicism actually is. He seem to be running with the interpretation that stoicism was an absence of emotion, which it is not.

[@farmtutor2379]

The Stoics cared about ethics, justice etc… but I don’t believe they looked at compassion and tolerance the way our society does to their credit. In today’s world we often see this whole nobody can do wrong attitude… more than that nobody can be wrong… It’s this don’t step on toes attitude. It’s this idea that a person must always be pleasant to others but the Stoics taught that happiness came from the courage of the soul. The excellence of spirit and that is the source of goodness and wisdom and justice. It’s not so much that a person can never be wrong but that a person must always perfect his view of the world so as not to be overwhelmed by it and not bend the knee to someone else when they are acting emotional or when they are doing wrong. Because that is our superpower, our conscience our will our soul, that it should never offend itself.

[@TheUnexpectedFan]

In my opinion the problem of stoicism is that its prone to either misinterpretation or under interpretation. One must bouble back on stoic lessons to apply experiential understanding to what has been understood conceptually. Lastly I think most who practice stoicism must learn to adjust their timeline with it. Instead of thinking lasting changes will be made in days, weeks, or even months in some case, see it in years or decades.

[@Zack-xz1ph]

this stereotype of "being stoic" = emotionless is why I never looked into it. It's an outrage how stoicism has been misrepresented, it has so many applications that I never realized. Every person should be familiar with stoicism

[@motorbikeray]

Dr. Michael Gervais's thoughts about Stoicism comes across to me like he's never read about Stoicism or he thinks overly emotionally or both.

[@nklinef]

What sets Stoicism apart from other philosophies is that it begins with the concept of construct awareness instead of idealizing its attainment. Not ignoring stimuli, but acknowledging their affect to act at a psychological level that is fundamentally proactive in a way that is not simply reactionary. It isn't the art of not reacting, but reacting in a mindful measured way that can examine and counteract the pitfalls of animalistic impulse.

[@npi57]

Management of emotion, or emotional management, a very good psychologist taught me that and thats what stoic teachings are. Why all the big fuzz about. They just don’t get it.

[@IanPourchot]

I think our world specifically needs stoicism. I remember Kurt Vonnegut talked about how the shape of stories involved a lot of dramatic ups and downs to keep our attention but we often overreact to ordinary struggles and triumphs AS IF they are the dramatic shifts in our favorite story arcs. I think stoicism is a remedy to this in practice. In a world where reels and shorts try to command our thinking, I think we need to remember that we don't need to have an opinion on every issue. In that sense, the hole that stoicism can fill in a meaningful way is just as gaping as it was in the fourth century BC.

[@unlucky427]

All right, I'll throw my two cents in. Last year was a m*ther f*cker. I lost my little brother to a ridiculous set of circumstances. Intellectually I knew, as he was laying in the hospital bed, that he was brain dead. Emotionally I didn't want to accept it. When the Doctor came in and explained to me the hard truth that he was in fact brain dead, there was no hiding from it anymore. And grief took over- That's one half of the story. After I got home from Oklahoma about a week later, my partner and I woke up to a missed call from our landlord. Intellectually, I knew what was about to happen, but again emotionally I wasn't ready to accept it. When I got the news that, because of extenuating circumstances in their own personal lives, our landlords were essentially taking their house back from us, grief again set in. I could have been "stoic" and not let it affect me at all. But I've never felt comfortable with that idea. I knew then as I knew when I was losing my brother that I needed to feel it, recognize that I was feeling it, and let it out. I needed to double over. I needed to cry and holler and let it out of my system. That doesn't mean that I wallowed or that I let that grief of losing both a person and a place that I loved drag me down into dark depths. I felt what I felt and I let myself feel it and I really believe that because I allowed myself to feel it, I was better able to handle the emotional and the very real financial and physical challenges that were ahead of us. Of course, my partner and I found a new place well within the time frame that we were given and I still miss that place but I'm happy with where I am now And I'm always going to miss my brother but I don't let it stop me from living my own life. I think that is what stoicism has been able to do for me.

[@archer125]

The last thing the world needs right now is more hysterics and emotions.

[@pseudo_ra]

Exactly.

[@urbanfrog8466]

Agree 100%!

[@MrFiremagnet]

Emotions are just signals from the ancient parts of the brain to reinforce certain behaviors. Why getting so upset about them existing? Learn to utilize them and understand them to make better judgements. That's all they're saying. Not to mention, hysteria is one thing and emotions is another.

[@davekubera]

Agree, but that’s not what he means.

[@AwakenZen]

You missed the point you stotic robot

[@dddvision]

Cultivating a calm exterior is not the same as being an uncaring asshole. Justice demands that you put your hysterics aside, understand others, and take the right actions despite how you may feel.

[@nataliao8868]

I think that this psychologist needs to learn much deeper about stoicism… it’s all about emotions… compassion and empathy…. 🤨

[@danielmacd4274]

Wish the general social and political discourse was this productive.

[@GunsWatchesCO]

I find it interesting that people would use stoicism as an excuse for being a narcissist. I've looked to stoicism over the last year to help me get over my personal narcissistic tendencies.

[@jmo2104]

This dude totally misunderstands stoicism. Being a stoic isn't being unemotional. He's definitely missing it.

[@julie2643]

I really like where this conversation was headed. Can we hear more on this ? Thank you

[@rachelcolomb]

Me too I could have listened for hours.

[@donleyp]

The idea of leaving out Justice is so antithetical to the philosophy. It's like taking a leg off of your dining room table right before your dinner party.

[@arielcandoleta5347]

Stoicism to me is something like accepting things as they come and go and not having unrealistic expectations about them that may lead to unnecessary emotional turmoil.

[@hormazhansotia5982]

SUPER GOOD !!!

[@IndigoHazelnut]

I do think (and this is my interpretation) that stoicism encourages us to balance our intuition with our reason.. So we master both without letting one overriding the other

[@AlexFindsAway]

“The difference here between the Epicurean and our own school is this: our wise man feels his troubles but overcomes them, while their wise man does not even feel them.” - Seneca

[@michaeljordan215]

Stoicism doesn't suppress or ignore emotion. They wield emotions as tools rather than being the tool of emotion.

[@anastasiaevans4884]

Just imagine a world where everyone is equally compassionate towards themselves and each other. There would be no wars, no hunger, no suicide. Being compassionate takes much more mental strength than most of the other things because it requires to be vulnerable, and it is not easy. It is much simpler to be rude and destructive.

[@spinnetti]

Good convo. I had no idea that stoicism is twisted by the selfish and low to their mode of being. I always thought of it as a higher mode of being that benefits everyone. Compassion and Justice are not the same thing though and deserve separate treatment.

[@carlsmagula]

compassion is infantilizing people,”oh you poor dear” kindness is a better approach, the guy Ryan is talking to is part if the problem, he does not get stoicism

[@nathanmeli4123]

This is true why bother with stoicism if you avoid hardships with people

[@Anthony_February]

What is more compassionate than teaching a person how to process every downturn their life could experience? Plus there are a number of instances where stoics did discuss compassion - not the stuff the modern world but compassion in practice - Marcus Aurelius spoke about the treatment of the insane and Seneca on the difference between mercy and pity calling for his reader to use mercy but shun pity while providing a clear definition of both. They were always beneath the superficial shoulder to cry on of the modern world but that’s because they went to the heart. I would take a heart felt message over a shoulder any day.

[@Lanearndt]

Daily stoic needs to learn that 'listen' and 'silent' have the same letters!!

[@kreaturs_kave]

Emotions are glandular. Feelings are expectant or reflective.

[@JamesENjeruN]

Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself