PTR 1.36.2 PART 2 Review & Balance Talk ft. Dondolare & SaveOrcas

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[@clarkreed5347]

Maybe to make keeper relevant in late game you could introduce slight treant health bonus Right now health is 300/300/300, which is easily dispelled by 2 AoE dispels like devour (160). If you changed to 300/300/400 health then late they would still have 80 health left after 2 devours which would be pretty helpful without breaking early game keeper

[@christophsc]

Since Blizzard apparently listens to you and implements your ideas, you could perhaps mention that it would make sense for all language versions of Warcraft 3 to retain their original voice lines and unit sounds if you play in Classic mode. Blizzard has already done this for the English version (even if the changes there were not as big in comparison). But it's even worse for the other language versions, where all voice lines have been completely replaced.

[@RobinOnTour]

What did they change it tol? What voice lines do they have now?

[@Carpatouille]

Big yes, I had to use a custom patch for the old language in French because the new one was unbearable. It would draw old players back I'm sure.

[@juanabdulfattah8857]

What do you think about changing dmg types of Walkers to piercing instead of making tauren tier 2? At least they have a counter to their counter then.

[@RobinOnTour]

People can complain all they want about Reforged but the patches are awesome! Thank you for listening to the various balance feedback sources from the community Here are my additional suggestions from my 20 years of wc3 followage Neutral Beastmaster Strength increased from 22 to 24 Level-2 hawk hit points increased from 450 to 625 Level-3 hawk hit points increased from 650 to 875 Stampede cast range increased from 300 to 900 Summon Bear cooldown decreased from 40 seconds to 35 seconds Beastmaster playrate is very low in casual play and especially in pro play. The changes partially revert the nerfs the Beastmaster received in 2003 when people were still learning about Wc3. Now 20 years later the Beastmaster can have some power back. Plus 2 strength will increase creeping speed and survivability especially when played as a first hero. Hawk buffs will incentivise attempting maxing Hawk first strategies. The stampede cast range increase allows him to stand a little further back while channeling helping this rarely seen and underwhelming ultimate. Death and Decay (1000 Range) Tornado (900 Range) Pitlord Rain of Fire mana cost reduced from 85 to 75 Rain of Fire cooldown reduced from 85 to 75 Rain of Fire level 2 area of effect increased from 200 to 250 Rain of Fire level 3 area of effect increased from 250 to 300 Doom Guard (Summonend) Ultimate turn rate increased from 0.4 to 0.5 Doom Guard (Summonend) Ultimate movement speed increased from 270 to 320 Pitlord Rain of Fire is literally a dead ability. Mana cost and cooldown reduction put him on par with Archmage blizzard. Area of effect increase gives incentive to Rain of fire max builds. Pit Lord Ultimate is great fun but often very underwhelming because the doomguard is slow and clunky. The movement speed increase will give him the same movement speed as the Dreadlords Infernal. Firelord Summon Lava Spawn level 2 mana cost reduced from 150 to 125 Summon Lava Spawn level 3 mana cost reduced from 150 to 100 Soul burn level 2 cooldown reduced from 12 to 8 seconds Soul burn level 3 cooldown reduced from 12 to 4 seconds Soulburn level 2 mana cost reduced from 65 to 50 mana Soulburn level 3 mana cost reduced from 65 to 35 mana The latest changes have been great for Firelord playrate but he still suffers from Lava Spawns high mana cost and Soulburn being useless. 150 Mana at all 3 levels is a lot for any race that has mana issues. When will you ever have Soulburn level 3? Yes it should be strong when you get it at level 5. Why not help him if it doens't break the game and makes him viable for more races. Alchemist Chemical Rage level 2 cooldown reduced from 30 to 26 seconds Chemical Rage level 3 cooldown reduced from 30 to 22 seconds The Alchemist is in a great spot but chemical rage builds are not really a thing. This will inecntive trying strategies evolving around maxing chemical rage. Dark Ranger Life Drain level 2 cooldown reduced from 8 to 6 seconds Life Drain level 3 cooldown reduced from 8 to 4 seconds Life Drain level 2 mana cost reduced from 50 to 35 mana Life Drain level 3 mana cost reduced from 50 to 20 mana The buffs for life drain haven't been enough. Further improving life drain max builds. This will help the Dark Ranger to life steal again after being interrupted. Tinker Pocket Factory level 3 detonation dmg increased from 80 to 90 Pocket Factory level 2 mana cost reduced from 125 to 115 Pocket Factory level 3 mana cost reduced from 125 to 100 Pocket Factory level 2 cooldown reduction reduced from 35 seconds to 30 Pocket Factory level 3 cooldown reduction reduced from 35 seconds to 25 Pocket Factory has very low playrate. This will incentivise more Pocket Factory play. Pocket Factory Detonation damage starts at 30dmg then 60dmg at level 2 so it only makes sense that getting a third level in it should reward you the same amount. Human Bloodmage Banish movement speed reduction reduced from 50% to 10% This will help Blood Mage first strategies and Bloodmage play in general. Banish slowing less will help microing your own units to safety making this ability a lot more valuable and skill emphasized. Orc Blademaster Agility increased from 22 to 24 Reverting the nerf from 2018. Orc is struggling in the undead matchup in the pro scene where blademaster was always the go to hero. Claw nerf plus the agility nerf really hurt him. This will help in the early game where creeping speed and health is especially important. Night Elf Demon Hunter base Agility increased from 21 to 22 Reverting the nerf from 2018. Elf is struggling a little bit in every match up in the pro scene. Claw nerf plus the agility nerf really hurt the Demon Hunter. This will help in the early game where creeping speed and health is especially important. Items Permanent level 5 Medallion of Courage stat increase changed from +5 to +6 for each stat provide. Helm of Valor stat increase changed from +5 to +6 for each stat provide. Hood of Cunning stat increase changed from +4 to +6 for each stat provide. As of now these items drop at a red spot creep camp which also drops very powerful aura items. Heroes mainly desire their main attribute so these items are basically worse than having 2 items that you could find at a lvl 1 green creep camp. For Example 2x +3 Mantle of Intelligence would have more impact on an int hero. In the same sense a level 4 permanent item like Boots of Quel'Thalas +6 would be more desirable for an Agility hero. These items really need to be adjusted to +6 or even +7. Permanent level 3 Ring of Regeneration is now in the level 2 permanent item drop table Ring of Regeneration cost and sell value adjusted to 125 / 75 Currently there are only 3 items in the level 2 drop table. Ring of regeneration fits in nicely and frees up the stuffed level 3 drop table. Experience The experience bonus for having a single Hero and owning a tier-2 or tier-3 town hall increased to +20%/+35% from +15%/+30%. A buff to Solo hero Ultimate rush strategies. This will make seeing ultimates a little bit more common especially in 1v1 / pro play. This will also open up for more strategies and heroes with currently low play rate.

[@RobinOnTour]

I mean obviously the values im suggesting are not perfect and some should Probably be lower but still many of these things deserve buffs

[@RobinOnTour]

If Soul Burn worked on mechanical units it would make firelord a nice pick up against mass tanks.

[@atonlort5666]

It feels like most of these changes to NE will help them tip the balance against HU or ORC, but not UD which is their problem...Coil-nova+destroyes counters bears and fiends counter every ne unit that counters destroyers+ ud has the frenzy push...I think this should've been addressed instead of moonwell bufs which everyone(non ne) hates...I do prefer a keeper buff tbh but not on treants. Mayde add a +1/2/3 regen on his aura to not make ne dependent on mw ?

[@rikkitikitavi513]

Apart from Happy, no one else plays for UD or what? We are UD players, WE EXIST! Stop destroying the most unplayable race because of one player who is at an unattainable level.

[@jorgeosmarfernandezceballo4471]

UD, the only race who get "balance" based on ONE player, the BEST player of ALL TIMES

[@TheLichkingMaster]

Saundering Blade: what to add even bonus vs hero, make knight anti hero and medium, 10 % extra damage

[@TagaBearClaw]

GGS

[@RobinOnTour]

Items Permanent level 5 Medallion of Courage stat increase changed from +5 to +6 for each stat provide. Helm of Valor stat increase changed from +5 to +6 for each stat provide. Hood of Cunning stat increase changed from +4 to +6 for each stat provide. As of now these items drop at a red spot creep camp which also drops very powerful aura items. Heroes mainly desire their main attribute so these items are basically worse than having 2 items that you could find at a lvl 1 green creep camp. For Example 2x +3 Mantle of Intelligence would have more impact on an int hero. In the same sense a level 4 permanent item like Boots of Quel'Thalas +6 would be more desirable for an Agility hero. These items really need to be adjusted to +6 or even +7.

[@xikens]

Starfall: 1.5s between waves, damages reduced to 35% vs buildings. Over 45s there are 30 waves. * 50 dmg = 1500 dmg. Over 30s there are 20 waves. * 60 dmg = 1200 dmg.

[@hamidious]

Let me guess before watching, they nerfed Happy again

[@Igorsov]

As always. They however always claim there are those mystic UD players other than Happy 😂 I am sure there are with a ladder rating 0 and 0 success at tournaments.

[@4bafiafzil999]

Better stop that man before he takes down everyone with his majestic micro!

[@Igorsov]

@@4bafiafzil999 Once upon a time a few years back while watching one of Happy’s stream, I’ve sent a text message in KZbin chat asking why don’t you switch, why do you have to suffer so much for this race when you can play with one hand for other. I asked if he would ever switch due to nerfs, etc, but at that time he said he won’t. I however hope he will one day. Knowing how Blizzard nerfs and buffs classes, races…Back in the days when I played WoW, I had 4-5 different high level character classes for that very reason since I enjoyed PVP and o couldn’t afford been over nerfed, so I would always play for the best class.

[@trualways911]

Lol so many tools, can even open a Home Depot shop

[@harm991]

It's hard to balance everything, and to make every unit viable: - 1v1 pro level - 1v1 amateur level - 4v4 - FFA

[@RobinOnTour]

True but things that are completely underused / weak deserve to be changed and it will benefit all modes

[@am1d]

Thats why you need to look at 1 vs 1s at either pro level or average player level with some adjustments with the pro scene in mind, so things like double taunt doesnt seep through.

[@RobinOnTour]

Give Soul Burn a 0.5 sec mini stun on cast. It would fit it's identity of doing everything at once and might just make it good enough to be played.

[@diyano2]

One change that Dondolare and I forgot to mention is if ghouls get nerfed, the undead deserve Decrease haunted goldmine build time by 5 seconds. This is a very important change to bring balance to all UD matchups that many even (non-UD) pro-players mentioned BY SaveOrcas.

[@IvanBorsenco]

I confirm this. Maybe Dondolare and I will have a chance to mention it in the next PTR iteration. Hope it isn't too late.

[@chouken84]

Just give PM the Improved Bows (Range 700 for normal attack) as the archers can get from the upgrade instead of continuously increasing the damage of the Searing Arrows.

[@MyHomeExperiments]

Are grunts obsolete now?

[@twassell25]

They already are

[@Igorsov]

They never were. The best tier 1 unit.

[@imomaisalorsimo]

@@Igorsov Wouldnt say grunts are bad at all, but come on, UD Tiers 1 units seems better to me .

[@Igorsov]

@@imomaisalorsimo You come on..Nobody, but Happy can control ghouls. Too fragile. A fiend takes 3 food supply instead of 2 supply for Headhunter.

[@theking-im5fe]

Did they talk about ne vs ud i think it's the lamest matchup in the game and needs some serious changes?

[@RobinOnTour]

Great Patch but the Beastmaster is still the trouble child Neutral Beastmaster Strength increased from 22 to 24 Level-2 hawk hit points increased from 450 to 625 Level-3 hawk hit points increased from 650 to 875 Stampede cast range increased from 300 to 900 Summon Bear cooldown decreased from 40 seconds to 35 seconds Beastmaster playrate is very low in casual play and especially in pro play. The changes partially revert the nerfs the Beastmaster got in 2003 when people were still learning about Wc3. Now 20 years later the Beastmaster can have some power back. Plus 2 strength will help with early creeping and survivability. He lost 3 Strg in 2003. People sometimes get Hawk for the true sight detection. This buff will encourage maxing Hawk strategies. The stampede cast range increase allows him to stand a little further back while channeling. Death and Decay (1000 Range) Tornado (900 Range)

[@M0n0chr0m4t1C]

800 mmr players discussing patches.

[@twassell25]

It's crazy. And blizzard listens to them too as shown. Neo even says it himself. It's the reason und is winning every single thing right now I guess.

[@Igorsov]

@@twassell25 Name these mystic UD players.

[@demetrenikabadze5468]

It’s quite common for patch makers to listen to casters. 1. They watch shit ton of games 2. They talk to pro players 3. They read redit and other forums 4. They watch other pro players talking about balance Besides they are not only ones who patch makers listen to just one of many. Also this is ptr meaning they will make adjustments just like they already did it’s version 2 for a reason. Also without this “800 mmr” guys at least half of wc3 pro scene would have died already .

[@jaredhazlett3809]

What about a single target dispel on the obsidian statute. Feels like a way to create mana tension on that unit and provide a T2 dispel for undead. Something like single target dispel ~50 mana for ~250dmg to summoned units. Your most basic dispel. Con is that it makes an already op unit even more of a utility box. Again, the mana tension could consider it a downside. Using dispel could take away from the ridiculous sustain the statute brings. another con to this idea is dispel could be a way for an unused unit to come back into the meta, e.g. necromancer. Give it to the necro to see it played more. Statute is already played. However, the necro already has three spells, you'd have to get rid of one. Statute only has 2 spells. Personally, the lore makes sense. It makes sense that the precursor to the destroyer which has dispel has another, weaker form of dispel.

[@RobinOnTour]

Firelord Summon Lava Spawn level 2 mana cost reduced from 150 to 125 Summon Lava Spawn level 3 mana cost reduced from 150 to 100 The latest changes have been great for Firelord playrate but he still suffers greatly from Lava Spawns high mana cost. 150 Mana at all 3 levels is a lot for any race that has mana issues. This change would be 2 clicks in the editor and would the firelord further in the right direction. People will have dispell when firelord hits lvl 3 / 5 but it will still help with creeping and general uptime.

[@RobinOnTour]

Please make Wc3 free to play. This will attract more players especially the young generation introducing them to a great game. This also opens up the possibility for blizzard to make revenue through ingame content sales like skins.

[@thiskneegrow]

Umm no?

[@ryancparker]

Spammable hero cc is a nonstarter

[@sailor-erida8576]

Personally, love this changes. Finally ghouls nerf, that almost all pro and semi-pro gamers wanted to happen for several years. Not agree with everything (like, not sure about reverted change on moonwell, or nerub rush is fun strategy and with piersing damage it's now useless) but this is good.

[@Igorsov]

51:55 That pathetic dance when no players can control ghouls, but one.

[@Omnideus_]

Give MGs double taunt again

[@arashtousheh1018]

Hi Neo

[@mormegilgurthang1761]

I'm absolutely excited about this new patch and the fact that they listen to the community. How about adding an item that grants the hero UltraVision?

[@user-ds7xw4hp6p]

U can nerf undead but cant happy😊

[@brandonkellner2920]

Half a level 1 death coil for 5 mana and a cooldown as short as your attack speed. I guess they really want people to start using Priestess of the Moon.

[@demetrenikabadze5468]

Priestess lvl 1 arrow can heal your units for 100 like half of death coil amount ( 200/100) ? Jokes aside they are getting too far with her but maybe ptr version 3 will fix it hopefully . I also want to see her in games but not like this…

[@oo.8330]

If you comparing spells, compare them on same level, not lvl1 vs lvl3. Death coil is still a better spell, and has much more utility

[@brandonkellner2920]

@@oo.8330 Ok fine, Searing Arrow has 9.6 damage per mana at 700 range plus basic attack with an extremely short cooldown and can be automatically targeted, and Death Coil is 4 damage per mana at 800 range with a 6 second cooldown and doesn't affect enemy undead. All this will go over your head, but it was actually good even before the first buff.

[@thiskneegrow]

@@brandonkellner2920nobody is getting lvl 3 searing arrow…potm is obsolete at that point anyway. Nice try…

[@brandonkellner2920]

@@thiskneegrow are you drunk

[@darkshaikhin8899]

Happy true emperor - you need to play in a way that they nerf the entire race because of you!

[@demetrenikabadze5468]

Undead got finally dispel that is not a destroyer- huge buff Cripple targets mechanical - huge buff vs human Curse targets mechanical - huge buff vs human stopping tank rush that happy lost to Sundering blade needs upgrade and it cost is high - 2 huge buffs for undead it was directly hu vs ud Cryptlord got buffed Meat wagon got buffed Dk got buffed Web got buffed Frost wyrn got buffed Boneyard is cheaper Ghouls timing got slightly nerfed Your conclusion ud got stomped by nerfs? Really? Even happy said it’s great patch for ud making necros good and is training on them specifically. But you know better :)))

[@cpt.murphy811]

​@@demetrenikabadze546825 gold frost wyrm buffed😅

[@Igorsov]

@@demetrenikabadze5468Huge Buff? Ahahahahahah, 😂😂😂150G for a 2 dispel charge item. Last time I checked, Happy has not even 50 free gold. Nobody will buy it. Ghouls will become obsolete now. And enemy heroes will just go inside of UD base without been unpunished and not afraid of towers anymore. That DH with immolation will single handed the whole UD army with the base. Lol.

[@demetrenikabadze5468]

@@Igorsov Just to make sure you understand what you are saying. ghouls were most used ud unit when frenzy was giving 25 attack speed. Now it will give 30 and it will make them obsolete? Also why should there even be a case where worker unit is stomping late game army? Would you like if milita got buffed again? It’s another source of dispel . Having 1 source vs having alternative is great. 150 gold for aoe dispel with 2 charge might not be greatest but think this way. You can remove 2 wolfs+ spirit link + nets from raiders for 75 gold per use. Is not a huge thing? Okey I guarantee you that if this patch goes live you will see ghouls again and wand used in most games as well.

[@Igorsov]

@@demetrenikabadze5468 I am afraid you are the one who doesn’t understand what is he saying. Let me guess, UD is not your race? Let’s see since you guaranteed.🤣🤣🤣Grubby admitted he can’t control ghouls. The fragiest unit in the game. Lyn tried UD, his ghouls were dying like crazy. Militia and ghouls are not the same unit. Different mechanics. You seems bad at this game if you can’t even understand it. Who will let you dispel 2 wolfs at the time. Plus, you just re-summon them and what? Another 75G?

[@stankokostic725]

Here is a suggestion for knights: Since Sundering blades increase damage against normal armor (where knights already shine), it might be better to have "Trample" passive - bonus against unarmoured units. Makes sense thematically, plus would help the knights against banshees if they manage to flank them and take them out before being possessed.

[@randomstuffs8495]

Stupid changes, Blizzard can only either overbuff or overnerf things it seems.

[@TheLichkingMaster]

This is how to fit perfec number, request multiple interation patches

[@randomstuffs8495]

​@@TheLichkingMasterwith his many adjustments, I believe they will keep at least 60% of these buffs to NE, which is already ridiculous to me. The race needs more better players, not stupid buffs like these, I'm not ready for another keeper 1st + expo 24/7, well maybe this time potm will be something at least

[@pm7943]

@@randomstuffs8495the amount of buffs or nerfs doesn’t say anything about the impact Just chill out, it’s still a PTR

[@atonlort5666]

@@randomstuffs8495 "The race needs more better players, not stupid buffs like these" So why don't you or any ne hater show these NE how to play better....every >2.2k mmr ne off raced in ~40 games orc/hu/random to 2.1k but we still don't see you critiques raising a ne above 2.2 to prove your point🤣🤣🤣.

[@randomstuffs8495]

@@atonlort5666 bruh if I know I would compete. This is balance discussion so I’m giving feedbacks. I’m no NE hater bro, but you can see we are back to the period of pre-nerfed NE, when they can play anything to win. I’m not saying I can’t be wrong too :v. I think dryad, bear and chimera is the one that needs buffs. Not Moon wells and keeper

[@julianm.3376]

Nerub Tower really needed a buff I guess.

[@Rotiehota]

a lot of unnecessary changes

[@sytse7531]

It is so sick to see that Blizzard directly adopted balance changes proposed by these people. They are quite known to be biased especially Neo who is a human hater.

[@kevingause9526]

Which race does neo favor ?

[@diningwithBrianN]

First. XD

[@tamaslengyel1497]

I never get the moon well complaint - just build one more I can't believe a build is so optimized that this is such an issue.

[@kylemadison1296]

dondolare is a chit hacker

[@cpt.murphy811]

One of worstest patches of all time. 8 elf mirrors in play off incoming soon.

[@oo.8330]

Not gonna happen. Ud still very strong vs elf, orc got huge buff, two base human is almost as strong as he was previous patch. And potm is garbage in all these matchups

[@cpt.murphy811]

@@oo.8330 ud nerfed, taurens on t2 not seems like good idea, hh nerfed, hum nerfed with arcane tower. And cotg buff, moonwells overbuffed. only ne got buffs without nerfs.

[@user-dx8gq9yv3t]

What??;; are you serious??

[@atonlort5666]

@@cpt.murphy811 with the exception of moonwell buff none of the bufs or nerfes helps ne against UD. UD still crushed NE back moonwells had 1.5 regen and no well spring nerf. These might help elves beat orc, but orc got tauren at T2.

[@cpt.murphy811]

@@atonlort5666 we have only ud?

[@ftr998]

Insane how biased you are only cause Happy is the superior player and you watch him every week winning. Meanwhile 120 cant win, and why do you have to buff NE like crazy? RIP Human players. Just delete Undead and Human from the game rofl

[@M0n0chr0m4t1C]

sais the 800 mmr player

[@twassell25]

I'm fine with that

[@lexys1196]

I think especially ne vs ud is broken. What would be best is to target that matchup and more specifically weaken what gives undead such a massive advantage without affecting the other match ups too much. The goul frenzy timing is crazy strong so targeting that upgrade seems reasonable, although I’m not sur delaying it from 15s is enough. Perhaps the very effect of the ability should be weakened aswell.

[@technologicalsociety]

Some of these changes are so absurd you end up having to change all kinds of other unrelated things to compensate for the initial nonsensical change. Come on. Stop talking about this stuff and let the game be. It has been around for so long and now all these massive changes want to come out based on what?? You're going down a road that might lead to the game being unrecognizable. The game has a handful of pros and most are the old school pros. You are basing balance based on their play alone and that is not enough people to base all these decisions on. NOBODY is going to rise through the ranks and become a star because of these changes. Not one and everybody knows it. I honestly feel like this balance talk is the same as back in the day when everyone had an opinion on balance and seemed to have one just to hear themselves talk. I've played this game and enjoyed watching it as a random player over the last 20 years and I just don't understand how these opinions can change an entire game when they aren't even the ones playing it at the top level. If the top players have opinions and think changes are warranted, I'd like to hear em because from what I've heard from them, they are very objective when compared to everyone else offering their opinions.

[@Igorsov]

This I agree. We will ended up with a completely different game. Thanks god, I own a physical Collectors 1.0 version of the game. So when I’ll try to have fun, I’ll pay that one via a LAN set up. It’s hard to balance a game that is not a typical RTS. May be there should be two in-game modes. One for pros and one for casuals.

[@kevingause9526]

Bro…you want the game to be boring ? They should change shit to make it interesting. It makes people want to play it more

[@thiskneegrow]

Didn’t the game not get touched for over a decade? You can just play older patches. Do you even own the modern game?