Punishments in videogames.

[@DeathScavenger420]

(18:27) "Path of Exile 2 starts as Dark Souls and ends as Vampire Survivors."

[@Ashtarte3D]

The real issue is the compounding punishments. You die in a map you lose the exp, lose any rewards on the ground, lose the time and then lose more time as you have to repeat the map without rewards so you don't brick your atlas. Any one of those alone would be punishment enough, not all at once.

[@aoitamashii]

This is why my friend and I prefer to do maps together, even if difficulty goes up slightly and makes it a bit more likely to die. Because at least then the other can usually get the map complete and not waste our time more than the XP loss.

[@Fluxikator]

@@aoitamashii does that mean you can't revive you friend while in a map?

[@HumanPerson_final]

I like PoE2, but all this makes me not want to invest the time. I last got to around level 8 and all the cool builds seem to require high levels, but then this grind he talks about here seems so tedious.

[@kenallsop7502]

Yeah, I think this is the thing. Having a punishment is good - if there's nothing, there's no incentive to do anything but go full DPS and brute-force through the endgame. But you only need one or two punishments for failure, and I think there are probably too many at once right now.

[@CountCocofang]

@@HumanPerson_final Level 8 like in character level 8? As in, just started the game half an hour ago level 8?

[@RawBerserker]

Punishment is fine, but the time investment loss is insane sometimes. I remember playing Maplestory back in the day... The amount of time it takes to get that 2% exp is basically all the playtime I had in a day, but then getting killed and losing 10% exp was just so demoralising... Losing a week's worth of playtime in a second just puts you off playing

[@saidaestrategica]

The same goes for Tibia. Sometimes it took days to level up but then you die, maybe lag or maybe because of your own mistake, and you lose LEVELS. Not % XP but entire levels. Oh, and also, dropping your entire backpack, with all your stuff and a chance to drop pieces of your own equipment. Its just absurd. They later added a bless system that you could get some reduction to the XP penalty and protection from dropping things, but if you forget about it or doesnt have the money? You're fucked :D

[@radaro.9682]

Because "losing" time means you didn't play the game? Weird that you'd ignore the enjoyment you got out of your playtime because you need to play more. If you enjoy the game you aren't out anything. If you're playing for a reason beyond enjoyment then why are you wasting money and time on a thing you don't enjoy?

[@pieru]

@@radaro.9682 you are an idiot

[@Chrome_Dreamer]

@@radaro.9682 you made no sense, a person can enjoy playing a game and not enjoy certain parts of the game. I enjoy fighting enemies and earning gear and exp from doing so, I dont like losing all the progress I did during my day because of how I played for 5 seconds

[@Mulgar268]

You'll be surprised to find out that hardcore exists for some games where ALL your progress is lost on death. So is the punishment too harsh or are you just bad at the game and not paying attention when you should be?

[@Skenjin]

Difference between punishment and "actions have consequences" can be a hard line to avoid crossing.

[@RedFire998]

I agree, there is a big difference between a game being challenging and a game being straight up annoying. If it's annoying, I don't want to play again. If it's challenging, I throw myself at it until I succeed.

[@Liriodelagua]

+1 to this. Had both these experiences recently, where I got Stalker 2 and got killed by a (I assume a random spawn) bloodsucker and some bandits right at the beginning after getting knocked out. I uninstalled the game and got magicraft, where I also died plenty of times but never got frustrated. This is something to be asked to game developers in general: are you afraid of making an easy game, so you artificially bump up the difficulty? Or add grind, or whatever else that is obnoxious to most players. In Stalker 2's case, I understand that they were kinda busy dodging nukes, but it's like they're also ignoring years and years of experience from their previous games.

[@antox9724]

What I do not like about how punishing the endgame is: I can play a few maps without getting hit a single time (on my subpar frost monk build), but what usually kills me is getting oneshot because of lag, the one where the game freezes for a couple of seconds and then plays everything that happened during the lag sped up. But what is frustrating is not that I died, it is that I got robbed of my scarce good map, the chance to get good items from it and the exp. So it takes away my resources, my time, and it does not even give me something to learn from for the future.

[@webbie7503]

Losing time it took to fight a boss then have to try again is punishment enough. Taking away EXP is just a slap in the face, makes people want to quit.

[@dach829]

Especially when u lose everything else too.

[@maolcogi]

Losing time it took to fight a boss, then not being able to try again, losing EXP, and having to farm to get to that boss again, just to fail and repeat the cycle. Nah I'm good, I'm waiting for us to have our 6 portals back. Thanks.

[@NTJedi]

You're already playing an IMMORTAL character with demi-god powers on the EASIEST setting in the game and you're complaining about losing experience?? This is what happens when "everyone gets a trophy" for simply showing up to play sports.

[@Antiquated-Ether]

Someone hasn't played hardcore 😊

[@Fluxikator]

​@@NTJediyes. Because it sucks. And is an old bad game mechanic. The real problem in my opinion is that the game rules aren't consistent. The whole campaign though the game teaches you that exp loss is not a thing. Also that you can try easily again if you fail. And revive your teammates. And in the endgame. (And for the last one just in the trails (shekma and chaos) ) It throws everything out of the window. Xp loss. No easy try again and no revives if a teammate dies you all fail. That's just plain bad game design and criticism in that regard is definitely earned. If it were that way from the start. It would be a different story. But it isn't.

[@JaceTheDragon]

10:59 I knew exactly where he was going with this, as soon as he started saying it, and it's *beyond* valid. Different people have different amounts of their lives they can dedicate to their "free" time, and mechanics that punish mistakes by taking that free time away *feel bad*, and encourage building as "safe" as possible... and playing that way tends to be less engaging. So you might quit because you get bored playing safely, or you might quit if you lose a ton of progress to a mistake (or an INTERNET HICCUP), but regardless you're still quitting and not engaging. It's not great design. It's something I've tried to get people to understand but the parapet from which I can speak is not as big as Josh's, so thank you for giving a voice to it Josh!

[@tsunamie1015]

But ultimately it's an issue with the balance of denfenses and stats. Removing the exp penalty is simply treating the symptoms, not the disease.

[@JaceTheDragon]

@@tsunamie1015 I definitely agree there's more to be done than simply removing the exp penalty, but there are _several_ systems that could benefit from a quality-of-life pass to make them feel--make the *whole game* feel more worthy of your free time, and taking away player punishment for "failure" or simply general misfortune is on that list.

[@Sniperfuchs]

@@tsunamie1015 I think it is actually the exact opposite. Leaving the XP penalty but fixing defensive stats would solve one issue but make nothing about dying any more deserving or fun. You will still lose hours of progress to being careless for 2 seconds or a lag spike. Defensives play a part in that, sure, but nothing about them has anything to do or changes anything about the fact that the XP penalty feels like it's wasting (and more importantly: not respecting) the player's time. It doesn't add anything fun or interesting to the game, it's just.. lame. Make the game difficult, not tedious, simple as that.

[@tsunamie1015]

@@Sniperfuchs If (amongst other changes) defenses get buffed, and If the player has more tools and opportunities to avoid dying, then dying becomes less of an unavoidable "oopsie" and more a result of choices. Dying shouldn't be fun, or deserving (unless specific instances), it should be a sign for the player to investigate an issue. Aside from that, whether an xp penalty respects the players time or not is also a matter of balance and is something that could be drastically changed by altering the xp curve. Which makes sense given the early state of the endgame. Fundamentally speaking, if the xp penalty were flawed by design, then PoE players would have been rioting for years already. Like many other things, it just needs to be balanced.

[@Sniperfuchs]

@@tsunamie1015 "it should be a sign for the player to investigate an issue." It is, by using your time in that map that you just lost. It doesn't need an XP penalty. "Aside from that, whether an xp penalty respects the players time or not is also a matter of balance and is something that could be drastically changed by altering the xp curve." It could, but what exactly is the point of the XP penalty? Why can't we think of features that are actually engaging rather than wasting development time fine-tuning and testing a feature that is largely a waste of the players' time? Sure, there is a value of XP loss that is "acceptable" but why make something "acceptable" instead of just getting rid of it and focusing attention on parts of the game that actually are fun? "Fundamentally speaking, if the xp penalty were flawed by design, then PoE players would have been rioting for years already." I wholeheartedly disagree. There are many features that are flawed by design but are simply deemed legacy and thus don't get questioned or touched. In PoE 1 this is just as much a pointless design decision as it is here. Especially because this punishes newer players more than experienced, which is just doubly a bad design decision. If they die repeatedly, they'll know without an XP penalty that something went wrong. But XP actually offers power in the form of passives for just investing time to level. Doesn't require drop luck, knowledge of crafting or anything. And I think that is a GOOD design decision. Lessening the ability to gain that power is a mistake in my opinion (goes for both PoE 1 and 2).

[@TMMReznor]

The more PoE streamers I watch, the more I think "Yeah, great game. I'm completely uninterested in endgame though because it sounds completely not fun... and not worth my time."

[@BOBBOBBOBBOBBOBBOB69]

I would guess most of the people who succeed at end game are those who have put in lots of time in POE1, its true for me.

[@MrsTheMark]

A good understanding of it, but poe1's endgame was actually stellar. I played poe1 since closed beta. I saw it turn from terrible to amazing. It will be amazing.

[@Sniperbear13]

wait till its out of early access i would say. its rough around the edges right now, and GGG has plenty of room for improving things. plus, it will be free to play once its out of Early access so you have one less reason not to at least try it.

[@tsunamie1015]

It's an early access game for a reason. If you don't enjoy the current state of endgame, it's understandable and perfectly fine. After all, it's not finished, let alone balanced.

[@DragonbornMike-ym2er]

​@@tsunamie1015Early access isn't really a good excuse when it's intentional decisions made by the devs. Some bugs popping up and such is one thing, but they chose to make and send out the game with this design.

[@Notivarg]

If PoE2 had a mechanic that if you died in the game, you'd die in real life, PoE2 fanboys would still defend it with 'git gud' and 'skill issue'.

[@xTazerTx]

Just make a good build and stop dying it's not that hard really 💀

[@NTJedi]

Poor Notivarg complaining about his IMMORTAL character with demi-god powers losing experience while playing *the easiest game setting known as SoftCore.*

[@grunerkaktus]

"Dont wanna die irl?? Well go play D4 then scrub LOL since it is the only other ARPG to have ever existed ever"

[@Sniperbear13]

they would be dead so none of them could say Git Gud.

[@ineedzsleep]

I feel like it's mostly the souls like community that has come into PoE2 that says things like that and refuses any criticism about the game

[@debrickashaw9387]

It's even worse when you start doing arbiter, breach boss etc. Each death not only costs you experience but tons and tons of currency. Especially if you die to the arbiter (and you will the first few times). It is pretty unfair not to be able to train against him but each attempt is so costly

[@oramisc90]

yep, die to Arbiter 'cause he used 1 shot mechanic where you need to get in that tiny circle off my screen 😂 quit after that, finding another 3 citadels is cancer to me.

[@debrickashaw9387]

@@oramisc90 yeah the game needs patches desperately. Their break has been way too long. Releasing a game and then immediately taking a 3 week break is ridiculous.

[@MrSamosa10]

@@debrickashaw9387 i think the break has worked out quite well actually. the beginning of the EA was always going to be chaotic and leaving the community to figure shit out - ie, what works and what doesnt, bugs, broken builds, ect. means they can focus on the really bad stuff straight away when they come back rather than smaller less significant things weekly. also they did give us a fair few decent patches before they went on break as well, we cant discount that either.

[@Sniperbear13]

@@debrickashaw9387 its in early access, so expect it to be a mess. they are trying things out to see what works, and not trying to simply make PoE1.5. if its too borked, i really would say come back when its out of Early access.

[@debrickashaw9387]

@@Sniperbear13 I know it is an early access which is why I am not as hard on them as I would have been if it was a full release. But the length of this break is hurting the growth of the game in my opinion. The patch cant come soon enough

[@dragonatorul]

Dark Souls and Elden Ring also take away your experience when you die: you drop your souls. But it's fair because it gives you the chance to recover them: they're waiting for you on the ground near where you died. They even move them to somewhere reasonably accessible when you die somewhere inaccessible, like falling off a cliff. I thought I won't like Soulslikes, but I love Elden Ring. It just feels fair. I don't feel bad if I die, because it's my fault. I don't feel bad when I lose the souls, because I had the chance to recover them, but I failed to do so. The important part: It was me who failed when given the opportunity. I had a choice, an opportunity, an input. It was a result of my decisions and skill, not just some inevitable decision imposed from on high without any regard for me and my situation.

[@Lovyxia]

I personally don't like the loss of souls in Elden Ring, but I could just go and mod it out by playing offline on PC. PoE2 currently only offers a brutal difficulty mode of play without any alternative, while at the same time trading is so overpowered that homebrewing your item loadout is strictly a waste of time. It sucks because I enjoy the core gameplay and FINALLY FOR ONCE WASD movement controls in an ARPG.

[@Intestine_Ballin-ism]

Hell, even d2 let you click on your corpse to get 7.5%/10% of lost XP

[@gsczo]

@@Lovyxia It's all about context. Souls are meant to be a currency that balances risk and reward. In Dark Souls, you are rewarded for exploring and killing monsters, with bonfires playing a significant role in that system. Losing your currency meant you didn’t calculate your risk well enough, and you shouldn’t hoard it. In Elden Ring, that context isn’t quite as strong as in Dark Souls, but at least it isn’t problematic. Losing souls isn’t a random decision to punish players; losing and gaining souls is part of how you handle challenges and decide to manage your risks in-game, while seeking your next bonfire. It simply just makes sense.

[@SenkaZver]

@@gsczo Same typebeat as PoE2 fanboys defending PoE2's end-game. Cognitive dissonance and nonsense excuses to defend something that doesn't really need to exist post 2010.

[@Blasphazar]

Honestly, this doesn't surprise me at all. GGG is pretty notorious for balancing the game around the top 0.1% of players in ways that punish non-meta players.

[@vithefirst6173]

This is why I dropped PoE1 and why I'm probably never going to play PoE2. I found it ridiculous that I had this big whole skill tree in front of me with thousands of different build combinations to try - except I was expected to go over to path of builder, A THIRD PARTY APPLICATION, or watch a youtube guide for a build that would actually function at higher tiers instead of being able to tinker around and learn by myself in-game. At that point it feels like I'm playing in order to re-create someone else's game experience rather than actually play my own game.

[@Oathiel]

​@@vithefirst6173 Almost everything can function at higher tiers, tho. Unless by higher tiers you mean gigajuiced 300% quant T17s. You might not be efficient. You might not do Uber Pinnacle content easily. You might just need some more currency or introduce some mechanic interaction into the build. But saying there is no options at all is wrong AF. People cry about not having options, meanwhile there are streamers like mathil that do like 20 different off-meta builds EACH LEAGUE that are usually good enough to clear all of endgame. And if your goal was to "being able to tinker around and learn by yourself in-game" then how is any of the above a problem?

[@MatthewKelley-mq4ce]

​@@vithefirst6173but Poe2 has reduced that problem severely. It's not perfect, but it is a thousand times more flexible than it used to be

[@denormative]

The stupid thing about this is that this has been known for decades. Even back in the Ultima 7 days of the 90s Lord British was saying that the punishment for death should be inconvenience. So I don't understand why, decades later, that game designers keep making games that punish you for exploring the game mechanics.

[@ajoshdoingthings541]

I like how DOOM Eternal did the arcade approach. Extra lives make sure you only get punished by making you conscious about having messed up, if you run out of extra lives you only lose the progress of that particular part of the level since the last checkpoint and all you achieved since then. It's still feels like a proper punishment but you still get to keep the previous level progress and "loot" as well as the knowledge of what enemies to expect when and where. Additionally with practically the entire Doom franchise I love that if you die, it's your very own fault or your own lack of skill like 90% of the time. The other 10% is usually just sucking at jump'n'run (in the versions/parts that have jumping) or getting stuck on odd level geometry or not knowing about some intrinsic mechanic (e.g.: how rockets work in the original Doom or where and how to get specific power-up secrets on harder difficulties). When I personally die for example, I take a deep breath and think stuff like "Hmpf, I was too slow", "Meh, my aim was horribly off", "I gotta mind that small obstacle, it has a bigger collider than model" or "I shouldn't take the medipack until XYZ happens in that battle" - the latter of which leads back to "too slow"/"bad aim"/etc. since in that moment I was simply not good enough to get to that point without the medipack. In the end I tend to instantly try again rather than closing the game. The last time I played DOOM Eternal was around 2 years ago on Brutal difficulty, yesterday I felt like playing it again but this time on Ultra-Brutal and while I vaguely remember specific rooms as really hard, they feel way easier and I literally just binged it for half a night and now I just got my super shotgun again and only closed the game when I was so tired that I couldn't be bothered to do the platforming that I need to do in order to smack that crucified demon to break the wall behind it. That seems like the polar opposite of being overly frustrating, it's tough but there's few of what you usually call "quit moments", even dying is just a minor cooldown just long enough to think and come up with a better strategy.

[@madrox4132]

man, I lost a juiced to hell iron citadel yesterday with 11 breaches because I didn't see the fire explosion beneath me

[@dach829]

Too bad u lost the exp how are u supposed to learn from your mistakes if u loose the xp... /s

[@Sniperbear13]

i often die because i cant see the effects at my feet because the floor is so full of my sparks its making it hard to see anything on the ground.

[@madrox4132]

@@Sniperbear13 playing LA Deadeye, got one shot through 6k es and 2k life. Couldn’t see shit

[@Lovyxia]

Visual clarity is terrible atm. It's like a bullet hell with invisible bullets half the time you do anything in the endgame.

[@ShadowSongg]

Just came home after work, did one map self made build did 99% of the map coming to last rare before doing league mechanics, which are a more deadly, and died from shotgun of 3minions that have a firing squad's synchronisation closed the game and immediately found this video. Feel validated

[@MrsTheMark]

Literally the worst aspect of the game rn

[@Roccondil]

The one thing that kept running through my mind as I listened to the video: “Failure is always an option” -Mythbusters. But in POE2, it seems, failure is actually not an option.

[@AGrumpyPanda]

Failure is always an option in science, because being wrong is still a valid result. Failure isn't an option in most games, because the only 'valid' result is completing the game.

[@DoktorJammified]

The way PoE does punishment just devolves the game into flavor of the month metaslop builds which just kills any enjoyment it had.

[@MrsTheMark]

God yes. I am doing a fancy build I made but I know it wont matter

[@MyVanir]

This sort of stuff is the reason I don't buy games on launch if I am not sure I know that I will like their gameplay.

[@noskillgames]

Im so glad josh has gotten this deep into PoE to see its problems, he has a lot of constructive feedback from a genuenly newish player.

[@PlusOne2Crit]

He's not a new player though. He played PoE1

[@Shadow-bk1im]

@@PlusOne2Crit I will say he never got this deep into POE 1 from what I could tell. I also never saw him say anything about that in the endgame of POE 1. Although I haven't played POE 2 yet I put 500 hours into the POE 1 Kingsmarch season. In the endgame although it isn't as bad this is a thing for POE 1 which tells me he never got there. Maven and Uber Elder if you lose to them you need to grind out the invitations entirely again to have another chance at the bosses which is frustrating because I am incentivized to get really good gear and just beat them down with superior stats rather then try and engage with their mechanics and beat them with skill. Maven was my biggest quit moment in POE 1 because of how much currency I lost buying the invitations even if I enjoyed the difficulty on that boss the most. Maven should have been the highlight of my playthrough with how fun overcoming her was but it left a sour taste in my mouth how I lost all my currency attempting her even if I was successful in the end. The currency I lost on Maven set me back many hours of grinding which as Josh explained is punishing not fun. Genuinely if I had lost all my currency attempting Maven and had been unsuccessful I probably would have just quit the game then and there instead of continuing to play.

[@Deductive]

I gave you 28 minutes and I earned 28 years worth of wisdom.

[@timmgebhart9874]

GGG should just straight up pay Josh their standard consulting rates for the time he played this. So spot on.

[@Fallenscion]

The experience loss is a holdover from PoE1 getting popular based on the back of experience races to level cap

[@Torguish]

I really do hope the peeps at GGG follow Josh. Very well put points.

[@qdlaty23]

we all know they won't

[@Shedovv]

Didnt the CEO (or whatever is that Director guy's title is) show up in Josh's stream chat a couple times?

[@Sniperbear13]

you might be shocked how often some game devs pay attention to people like josh.

[@baconx6476]

GGG is infatuated with the idea that their games are made for the hardcore gamers, that they are better than Blizzard. While I love POE 2 quite a bit, the endgame is at odds with giving players a satisfying experience, by making certain things just painful like one try mechanic and all of the OHKO. I will always champion hard games, but at a certain point, being hard just for the sake of it by going out of the way to make players miserable is not the way to go about it. That said, it's still EA and very early in the game's life so I have hope that GGG will make the necessary adjustment.

[@JDelwynn]

Which is kinda funny because Blizzard didn't make games to the the hardcore crowd. They might have hardcore elements, but Diablo and WoW were meant to be played by everyone, not just the neckbeards.

[@Tommy_The_Gun]

Problem in this type of games is scaling which causes any kind of tanky/defensive focused build to be pointless in endgame anyway since even those builds will get one-shoted, while before reaching endgame it works. You can have a "turtle" build with low dmg that has survivability high enough to survive everything (including "standing in stupid" - AOE). But as soon as you reach end-game, enemy mobs & boss scaling breaks the game and you are about to go through "rude awakening" when you have to re-build you character if this is your 1st one. It also makes mechanic & boss fight also broken cuz stuff that was previously a dmg over time is now a one-shot. So players build to avoid boss fight mechanics anyway since being tanky simply does not work. Same stuff happens in Last Epoch. All aRGPs have this design problem.

[@xTazerTx]

Nah you just don't understand defense layer defenses in poe there ways to just never die in poe and when you actually invest in you will feel scammed for not doing it before

[@IAmMrGreat]

They just need to make defense scale WITH enemies scaling then, seems like a rather simple solution. Instead of making defense completely useless by adding tons of one shot mechanics regardless of hp.

[@reed3863]

Agreed. Challenging is good, frustrating is not. Challenging modes/difficulty does not need to be unnecessarily frustrating.

[@Sniperbear13]

yep. frustration is not fun. challenge doesn't mean make the game as frustrating as possible to the point its practically impossible. those frustration games like I wanna be the guy really tend to appeal to a very small percent of gamers.

[@sleepyz2z2]

Losing a boss fight and having to do it over is enough of a punishment in and of itself, as every loss is punishing your finite pool of patience.

[@mellowm8552]

Chat is just Josh's rubber ducky for sorting his thoughts

[@DLT739]

No one seems to have found a way of preventing all ARPG metas from devolving into clear speed. The quicker you kill stuff, the more loot you get. Damage is to be avoided, not tanked, so defences are irrelevant. And it just gets boring faster

[@stanimir4197]

PoE2 is an exceptionally horrid example of that - it features the awful dodge mechanic. The total flashy cluttered screen to a point the mouse cursor cannot be seen. Worst of all - the "maps" get negative effects, e.g. 30% more HP to all mobs, 30% more resistance, 40% more damage as chaos/lightning, whatever. The only sane way to play for many is killing everything offscreen. The physical defense is just bugged -- the armor is useful for trickle damage only. The spark sorc build in the video is another example how lightning damage is the best of them all. The game develpoers have a lot of work ahead, the game is totally not ready for prime time.

[@PhakesL]

Meta will always be like that, this is ARPG, most people playing this genre want mobs exploding. But PoE 1 already "solved" this issue, there are plenty of good off meta builds that's focused more on survivability than damage, they do less damage, slower, but very tanky and sometimes even able to tank endgame bosses heavy hits. There's nothing like that in PoE 2 except maybe the most meta stacking ES mana with Archmage MoM, ED, CI, so you have both high regen, high HP (ES + mana), and high damage (Archmage from mana), and high survivability against chaos damage (CI).

[@SenkaZver]

Bro, this only happens in always-online ARPGs. Go play the other 80% of ARPGs that exist, that are single-player games.

[@TheStratovarian]

You raised a point that was why I was feeling like i was struggling far far earlier, defense did feel worthless. And experimenting felt like it was dis-encouraged. And why i stopped playing and moved on to other things, despite liking the game.

[@IAmMrGreat]

Yeah, largest skill tree in the world yet you're railroaded onto only picking +dmg passives.

[@Neonsilver13]

The punishment aspect gets amplified if you don't feel like you died due to a mistake you made or worse if you feel like you couldn't have done anything different. I recently played Brotato and due to the game kind of flooding the arena with enemies, it doesn't feel like you can actually avoid damage, so it comes down to whether or not you are lucky enough that the character dodges often enough or that whatever healing you have triggers enough for you to survive. Combine that with the luck aspect of building the character I always felt like I couldn't do something a lot different. It's why I eventually deleted the game out of frustration. I agree that the way souls likes handle punishment is probably among the best, certainly great for that type of game. While you can loose progress you always have the chance to restore it and it even adds an aspect of choice to the loss of that progress. The player can either go back to a boss and regain the lost souls, but will have to try the boss again or he can make the choice to go somewhere else, maybe find an easier boss for now, grind some levels or a try to get better equipment, whatever. At that point loosing that progress becomes less of a punishment, because the player chooses to give up that progress. The souls like Code Vein even adds the option to restore half of it's currency if you want to, mitigating the punishment aspect even further.

[@justshinigami9364]

yeah that sometimes can be really bad, but i think brotato is still different. In Brotato you still can play glass cannon map clears, but you can also play defensive builds, pacifist builds, combos or anything you like, really. brotato just has the aspect that you kind of need to go with the flow of rng and if you dont know the game well enough that is really hard

[@Neonsilver13]

@@justshinigami9364 Probably, that was just my personal experience. I persevered and finished a play through with several of the characters on the highest difficulty and while it's quite enjoyable when a build comes together, it's incredibly frustrating to loose. I rarely felt like there was anything else I could have done. Only rarely did I feel that I should have done something differently. As Josh mentioned, when you loose you should gain experience, get better at the game, get better at beating an enemy. I'm not saying that you don't learn anything, I just feel like you reach the point very quickly where you get only marginal improvements, if at all. I'm not saying I figured out the game entirely, maybe I was playing completely wrong. I just reached a point where I didn't feel like I could change a lot in my playstyle to improve my chances and I was playing it because the gameplay loop is quite addicting, not because I got anymore enjoyment out of it.

[@flashpoint5292]

Losing XP is like Demon's souls punishing you for using human form. There's no reason to engage with the mechanic since you only get punished by the game for using it if you die

[@porkwhisperer3050]

I’d argue Demons Souls is one of two games I actually like the game punishing you with feel bad mechanics for dying. Those being the characters reliance on consumables and the tendency/humanity mechanics. As it helps the game communicate the main themes of the story and adds dynamic difficulty spikes almost guaranteeing some sort of roadblock if you’re not familiar with the genre. It also adds tension making each decision feel more meaningful and making the game feel scarier and more foreboding. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the two more horror souls like games have your main source of healing come from consumables. The game clearly wants you to think about resource management a lot more than the later souls games. I understand that it makes the game more frustrating but imo it sorta payed off with the game feeling more engaging and immersive than it would otherwise. It also adds loads of replayability as it can change what parts of the game are more challenging on any given playthrough drastically and it makes certain interactions and build options available depending on how the playthrough goes. If you’re curious the other game I think makes very good use of feel bad/punishing mechanics is pathologic 2. That game does an even better job. Edit: I’d argue the game isn’t actually made much more difficult with worse tendency as the game significantly raises drop chances. What’s important as weapon upgrades are 95% from enemy drops. Not to mention soul form damage getting increased in lower tendency. What’s this ultimately results in is the game requiring you to grind more to come back stronger than was even possible before in order to defeat the boss that had become in your playthrough a hard boss. If you haven’t caught on the point of the punishing mechanics is to make the game seem more intimidating than it actually is in order to create an even stronger feeling of overcoming adversity. I would also explain the way these mechanics are important to the narrative but I’ve already gone on way too long in this comment. Thanks for reading all of this lol.

[@adamprince9622]

In my experience playing Poe1 (roughly 700 hours), the point I would stop playing was usually when I'd hit a stonewall in exp progression, where my build couldn't survive lvl-appropriate content long enough so that 10% exp penalty would happen too often, making it next to impossible to lvl up unless I did low-lvl content with a huge exp penalty. Really not a fan of exp penalty for that reason. On the other hand, I do feel it's extremely important to for death to have stakes (love fromsoft games, roguelikes, played D4 almost exclusively hardcore, etc), so I'm not sure what the solution would be for me.

[@PorrateoIntenso]

Either bring back the 6 portal defense or make it so that dying doesnt remove your map and instead slaps it with a stacking 15% reduced quantity of items or something along those lines.

[@Immow]

That was bloody amazing, hope the devs watch this :)

[@brianviktor8212]

It is an interesting topic, and it relates to me as well. I am working on a space combat/exploration game, and the time a player goes "out" and "back" from his home base is what matters. Dying is not a big deal in itself, you just teleport back and your ship is there. So a player starts to go out, does things, acquires loot, and the amount of loot he carries increases. When a player's ship is destroyed, he loses all his cargo and cannot recover it. Meaning as he continues to acquire loot, his risk of losing it increases. I think that's a fair balance. If it were like EVE Online, you'd lose your ship, your cargo, your equipment and maybe even the equivalent to experience. The amount of time you lose is not only what you spent for that particular trip, but hours to weeks of money grinding for the ship and its equipment. Plus it is a hassle to buy all the parts for the ship, you may have to move around, which can take an hour. So what do you think, is it fair to "only" lose ~20-60 minutes of time, which are the things you acquired on a trip? It's not like Dark Souls where defeat is death, and it occurs a lot, and also easily out of nowhere. Escaping and avoiding combat is also well possible.

[@brianviktor8212]

To compare: In Classic Wow you lose around 5 minutes. In Retail WoW you lose around 1-2 minutes. In Hardcore WoW you lose days, weeks even months of time. In Guild Wars it's around 1-5 minutes of walking back. In Minecraft it's up to 120 minutes if not recovered, ~5-10 minutes if recovered items. In Wildlands or Ghost Recon it's ~5-10 minutes. In Mario games (dropping to 0 life) it's possibly up to 120 minutes. In EVE Online it's hours to days. In single player games it's 1-15 minutes (forcing a loading).

[@dragoninahuman]

to me it partially depends on how players can die, but if they can realistically only lose up to an hour of progress due to greed, this seems relatively fair, especially if that's kind of the point of the whole game. it's risk VS reward, you got a haul, is it worth it to risk getting a little more and losing it all, or will you go back now and ensure you're safe? but most importantly to me personally; was the cause of death realistically avoidable through experience or skill, or was it a matter of poor RNG and you just got ganked. if you can lose 60 minutes of time because of a random dice roll outside of your control, then i wont even look at your game, if there were tells that someone with experience could realistically tell, but failed to notice, then, while it may be frustrating in the moment, has at least a element of 'avoidable' to me.

[@dojelnotmyrealname4018]

Personally there's a couple of metrics to note. Losing active progress feels better than losing already attained progress. If you are 30 minutes into a run and then die, yes it feels bad to lose some or most of those 30 minutes, but anything that wasn't part of the run is yours forever. This is where a lot of the failure lies, in eating your progress further than the run went. There's also the perceived fairness of the loss. Could something realistically have been done about it? Was it a technical failure, did the game warn you enough that you're going in too deep? finally, there's also how natural the punishment feels. If you're out and about and you die and respawn on your ship, you won't have the stuff on you. That seems understandable. You might even have lost the experiences of what you were doing cause there's not a permanent memory repository. But why does it eat your permanent exp?

[@BuckyDucky]

They wanted more build diversity, and they did the exact opposite of what they should have done. They should have built the game so that the super casual builds made by the regular dudes working two jobs can complete all of the content without too much of a struggle, and then have been totally okay with the fact that the super meta builds will completely steamroll all of the content. They should have also removed punishments from dying at endgame. The fact you get punished for failing means that people will avoid being punished which means people will avoid playing things that aren't the meta

[@Sniperbear13]

there is only half the classes in the game currently, also tons of weapons and skill gems are not even in the game yet, so we don't have access to full build diversity. in the future there can be a lot more variety and such. i think people are forgetting that fact. the builds we have now, could be completely outshined later.

[@Lovyxia]

Meta builds steamrolling content are also so absurd right now in the most obvious ways, like using the % max hp of enemies against themselves. How would anyone not see this coming and make the game hard and players weak through almost every other mechanic in the game? Build diversity isn't just about difficulty, but about balance. Lower difficulty leaves more room for balance but the balance right now is beyond broken as well.

[@BuckyDucky]

@@Sniperbear13 that would only be true if the game didn't incentivize playing the best builds because failing is so punishing. People will naturally gravitate towards the best builds because players will avoid being punished.

[@Sniperbear13]

​@@BuckyDucky many will, but at the same time, people will still experiment and find fun builds that might not be the best but can still do the job. in fighting games, people do find fun in playing low tier characters, even if they will lose 7 outta 10 matches. playing the meta is not always the most fun.

[@BuckyDucky]

@@Sniperbear13 the point here is not that nobody will play off meta builds. The point is that the game is incentivizing playing meta builds and that is a problem. The more you punish players the more they will avoid being punished, this is the absolute wrong philosophy to bring into a game where you want to incentivize build diversity

[@superhello443]

It's funny how this endgame system is basically D4's back when they added ubers. There's little difference between "Do maps for X hours to find thing" and "Do all the timed events for X hours to find mats to summon thing." Both incredibly annoying and stupid. 'Look, guys, we made a cool thing, we're sure you'll love it, but you gotta pass the time investment inspection first!' Why do ARPG designers have such a boner for gating the content they make? Yeah the rewards are good, but they end up on trade all the same.

[@SenkaZver]

Difference is; D4 was viciously attacked for months over it and people still bash D4 over it, but people are already trying to deflect and minimize how bad it is with PoE2.

[@slizer88]

Thank you in particular for pointing out that school is to teach how to think and learn, not for rote memorisation and facts that could be learned anywhere. Too focused on dealing with the tasks we're given, without questioning if those are the tasks we should have in the first place.

[@barachiel212]

FF7 Rebirth has a VERY similar problem with its Hard mode/Brutal & Legendary VR fights. The bosses have so much HP and are SO overturned with high AOE damage and DPS-gate OHK mechanics that no one engages with them "properly." Instead, channels like Optinoob's and others found optimal Insane Burst DPS strategies who focus on either burning down the boss in one hit, or stunlocking bosses as much as possible so they can't do their full mechanics. It's not easy, and takes time and practice to even pull that off, but its infinitely better than trying to "fight fair" where 95% of the time, you'll die after the transition to Phase 2, because you're about to be hit by an unblockable auto-tracking multi hit attack that will drain your HP before you can do anything, and your only hope is to have saved up enough ATB to cast a Max level fire spell and nuke the bosses' last 20% of health before it can finish its attack animation. I loved Platinuming FF7 Remake, but hated every moment of getting the Platinum for Rebirth and only managed it because I got COVID just before Christmas and got 2 whole weeks to devote to slamming my face against the challenge.

[@KenTheWise]

The paradox of PoEII is that has the best bosses of any ARPG and the biggest incentives to not engage with their mechanics. First run of the campaign is the most fun then it becomes a lawn-mowing simulator.

[@amenhotep2582]

11:52 I agree with Josh on most of this, though i'd argue yes in some cases, Roguelikes and to a lesser extend Roguelites literally are okay with you losing 3 hours of runs for the knowledge of what they gave you even if you don't win. Also theres fun in playing the game even if you don't win. I don't have long to play POE2 or other titles but I don't mind making little progress if I had fun or learnt something.

[@Uelibertiga]

Your example with GTA was so funny to me, because PoE1 started extremely slow and punishing. It wasn´t growing until they changed, sped it up and allowed more things. Players were shaping the game into what it is today. PoE1 went in a direction many people of GGG didn´t want the game to be. Too fast, too rewarding. So they introduced Ruthless into PoE1 a game mode where you are slower, less loot, more tedium and the vast majority hated it. Now we have those Ruthless mechanics in PoE2 and people are against them again. I hope we can shape PoE2 also into a game worth playing in the endgame.

[@Perqqq]

And some people preferred the old game and now want to have at least one to play. Do you really need two, exactly the same games? Do you really think that if something is more popular it is automatically better?

[@truedps8]

You fail to mention that retention has drastically gone down the more they sped the game up. We used to have nearly triple TRIPLE the retention that we have now in modern leagues. We do not need to go down the same road that PoE 1 went down. That just leads to frustration and people getting bored with the game. PoE 2 is it's own thing, it's biggest weakness right now is it leans too much into what PoE 1 was (especially in endgame). It needs to embrace the identity it had in the campaign.

[@jrjihu]

@@Perqqq But you already have Ruthless, do you really need two, exactly the same games?

[@radaro.9682]

Ruthless is the only way I play. All the sparkling and loot going everywhere makes me think of a mobile game. Specifically it makes me think GGG are trying to highjack my dopamine system like mobile games do. No I don't need loot fountains. No, I don't want lots of randomly generated colored names on the field. Feels bad when I stop caring about drops.

[@Kuzka_]

@@radaro.9682 I don't quite understand your point of view. Does this mean you're extremely happy to get a 1000th transmutation orb in poe2, but don't feel anything when you get a divine in poe1? Some things are meant to be rare just in the beginning. I think the huge problem with poe players is that they just get a loot filter that turns the game into the "randomly generated colored names on the field" or "dopamine hit" because of the loot filter sounds. And then they complain about it, oblivious to how they break it for themselves. I have almost 8k hours in poe1 and I don't feel indifferent to drops, even if they're meh, because it has it's use and purpose, I just went beyond it and need better stuff. Yet I still pick up smaller rare items because alteration orbs are important too. Also, people only playing meta and complaining about it is another problem. It's almost as if such players want to force others to play at their low speed.

[@chickenfarmer321]

The best punishment I've found is a lack of a reward. When success is rewarded but failure isn't punished but simply not rewarded (like dark souls, failure means you lose the unspent souls you had on you and no more than that, the levels you put into stats stay permanently).

[@alexsterling5788]

GGG has stated that "EXP loss" as a mechanic is intended to ensure that reaching level 100 is not something any player can achieve easily, making it a real accomplishment when you make it there. Even if you buy thousands of the omen to protect your EXP loss, it only blocks 75% so you still need to focus on staying alive to make progress. If we can come up with an alternative mechanic to fulfill that same objective, making the highest levels "prestigious" to attain, I think we could see the EXP loss mechanic removed at all levels. For example, we could use an ascension type system. Remove the EXP penalty and set the standard level cap to 90. To reach level 91 you must complete a challenging trial of some sort. To reach 92 after that you must complete an even harder trial, etc. This maintains the "prestige" of reaching those upper levels without needing the EXP penalty to be ever present for the general populous.

[@DanchiMJ]

>Loss in arcade terms means put more money in and try again That's only when you're learning the game, and is derisively referred to as "credit-feeding", when you're actually going for the clear, you're expected to do it in one go, and an arcade game is generally around forty minutes, so it's actually a pretty big loss when you game over! Incidentally, arcades have game difficulty literally down to a science, because they had to be hard enough to wear you'd get kicked off the machine or have to spend more by stage three unless you were really good, but not so ridiculous to where you felt you were just actively having your money stolen.

[@alissima9880]

All of these reasons are exactly why playing POE2 makes me wanna go play Last Epoch instead.

[@M2Mil7er]

the monitor angle and treadmill suggests Josh is going for the shredded legs and hunchback build.

[@nixiedreamstar]

Been trying to tell the same to friend for weeks but he's on this mindset of a veteran PoE 1 player that 'Its not that bad, punishment is good'

[@aoitamashii]

The one thing some testers figured out recently is there is a soft cap of 150% MF, so if you overlap tower bonuses, lets say 50% MF provided by towers and another 50% by the waystone, then you only need to wear 50% MF to make up the difference. So it ends up not as bad as people feared if you're "mapping properly".

[@Llynethil]

*Sees recommended video* "Ah I like this mans' videos, excellent Rob Stark cosplay as per usual" *clicks on the video* "he often has quite poignant things to sa-why is he on a treadmill?"

[@drakon089]

What I hate the most actually is the fact that you lose any modifier (a boss, a ritual, an expedition, corruption... any f those) of the map when you die. I'm fine with dying a few times until I get better gear, but what I definitely don't want is pass through 2-4 maps to then die to 3 random projectiles before even getting to the boss and now having to do another round of going to a boss map and hoping something worth it drops in between. Specially since the bosses are so good

[@weevie_stilfat]

I ABSOLUTELY love poe. I played 2 maps/waystones in poe2, havent played in almost 3 weeks.

[@Sevetamryn]

100% agree to your words about schools and learning (and Shakespeare)!

[@virtualstring2925]

Completely agreed. Unlocked maps just recently, first one froze my game when I entered the portal and had to restart the whole pc (it didn't refund the map since it wasn't a dc/crash but a force-restart of my pc), and the second map was me just playing as if it were hardcore, which wasn't very fun since I pretty much just spammed storm wave on monk, otherwise I'd die way too fast. It's a huge disincentive that you not only lose the map and your time, but also the xp and potentially loot if you don't pick it up quick enough. Hope they change it, at this point I don't motivated to do more maps after those 2 runs

[@stanimir4197]

> restart the whole pc

[@myboatforacar]

I still love the original Rogue... "Backtrack? What do you mean? You're dead, fam"

[@vbhd1419]

The experience loss is primarily designed to protect the value of being level 100. In both PoE games, characters that can reach over level 95 are viewed as being 'better' because they obviously last a lot longer between deaths. If experience loss is removed, level 100 will eventually mean nothing. I do agree that the current punishment is too harsh.

[@Stevezftw]

I've has this same view ans my friends literally just reply "get good" and my brain literally just shuts down

[@YouTookMyAccountName]

And they're all probably playing meta cuck builds like spark archmage stormweaver

[@complexxl9]

Stopped playing more than a week ago after two consecutive deaths. After reaching the point where xp loss kicks in my gaming sessions would end in a rage quit after a death, the higher the level the more frustrating it became, to the point where dying 2 times in one minutes span at level 89, squeezed me out of all the morale to go and try regrinding the lost xp, cause I might die again and go even lower. For context I was playing self-made non-meta build, so this video really resonates.

[@KiithnarasAshaa]

6:00 No one wants to be _punished_ for failing, but people do like having _consequences_ for failing because it adds the element of risk. It's somewhat semantics, but the underlying idea is that players do want to feel like they might lose _something_ if they fail to succeed at something, but they don't want that loss to be crippling or painful.

[@Napp2804]

I have been listening on my phone with the screen on and only by the end realized - this is already one of the Josh Stride Hayes streams!

[@Paul_Hardy]

When Elden Ring received the enormous success that it did, it was obvious that a lot of studio's were going to learn all the wrong lessons from that success.

[@Reashu]

That sounds like you think EXP loss is a new mechanic, which I can assure you is not the case

[@SenkaZver]

Elden Ring is a worse Dark Souls. Even FromSoft learned the wrong lessons from DS1-3, etc.

[@kag2576]

It's the difference between a game being hard because it challenges your skills versus a game being 'hard' because it's more tedious

[@Drejzer]

23:01 that's basically the duck method: explain the thing you are working on/have problem with/trying to figure out to a rubber duck (it can be that rubber duck, a stuffed toy, a figurine, a coworker or stream viewers as is the case here)

[@LysTech758]

I can't be the only one that can't put his side profile and the front view of Josh together, they look like different people when you look at him from the side

[@Vladislav888]

Heavy punishment is ok if - and only if - the game has a robust learning toolchain. So almost never.

[@constantinemarshall7809]

What you said about failure removing past successes is exactly the reason why the game's population has tumbled almost 200 thousand players on Steam. It effectively made the play time before it null, especially when it is to a mechanic you cannot avoid (server lag, straight up not being able to even see things, etc.) With more casual people playing the game for only a few hours a day, let alone a week, losing days or *weeks* of their free time for absolutely nothing is asinine.

[@ZombieKitty321]

Not only that, but honestly the timing was an issue, people were hailng the steam player numbers as if everyone playing has gotten to the problem areas, i consider myself non-casual is game time sense, and it took me around 50-60 hours too complete act 3 (mind you with some grinding here and there) no way a dad gamer is going to get the frustration parts of the game till at least a month in. And it shows. Not only that, but the diffirence i tone between the cruel campaign and maps i general compared too the campaign is an insane jump, thats where the quiting moment is going to be for most people.

[@Lovyxia]

Here's an idea, not working around PoE1 mechanics but focusing on fixing PoE2 progression loss: XP gained on a map is split between XP given to the character and an extra portion given on completing a map. Completing a map would be a button you press after doing its goals and optional content, this could lead to a "post-map" room that gives the "risked" XP and moves items you haven't picked up into a loot chest. This would help QoL and make maps much more engaging as a microcosm of accumulating risk, instead of becoming a grinding space for the extra mechanics they have or a walking sim of loot gathering after "completing" it. It would also solve inventory QoL while mapping. Defenses definitely need addressing too. I think only having 1 life is great as a goal, provided the game isn't built around 1-shots which aren't just frustrating but greatly punish off-meta buildcrafting in general. They can very easily balance the small amounts of healing and recovery currently in the game to make it less about dodging 1-shots and more about engaging resource management, which would solve almost all cases frustrating deaths that don't relate to bugs.

[@0That_Guy0]

This made me rethink getting this game, despite it being free once fully released.

[@AlphaSquadZero]

You can always do only the initial acts and stop playing once you get to the maps

[@Tobeh]

In Dark Ages (by Nexon) if you died you lost a ton of experience, all of your enchanted items were destroyed and gone (staves, rings, necklaces, most rare boots, most gauntlets, and earrings). What wasn’t destroyed was left in a spot along with all the money you had on you where you “piled” and if you didn’t get back there within 1 hour it became unprotected and was free game for anyone to take. Staves were especially nasty because while they offered little in the way of stats, they decreased spell cast times significantly depending on which spells you were using. Low level priests would carry 1-2 different staves, one for casting curses, one for casting heals and blessings, both lost on death. On top of all of this you had a roughly 20% chance to permanently lose max hp and mp upon death. You were also given a scar that reduced your max hp and mp gained if you leveled up with the scar present. The only way to remove the scar was to go to one of the 2 churches out of 8 who’s gods could remove the scars and then find a player who was willing to spend their faith to remove that scar for you through prayer. Most priests (specific rank inside the faith system) of the church were willing to do it for free but it was also a common custom to bring a gift in the form of an item blessed by a rival god that they could desecrate which gives them higher faith.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

"You are gonna learn! [...] Welcome to the real world!" - Justin Wong coaching

[@Shoreux]

There is a rocket launcher somewhere in this quote.

[@ironmilutin]

"Is this what you ever do in your house?"

[@twistedumbrella7537]

The funny thing is, during the campaign you do get that feeling of, I got a bit better, lets go again, the campaign is actually like Elden ring, including the checkpoints right before the boss. It's just when you hit the endgame, things become way too punishing and frustrating.

[@Marrimero]

Getting punished for trying and learning, just makes me demotivated to play.

[@Claaaaaaaaws]

You dont deal with the experience loss until endgame tbf

[@timogul]

If your two options are "fight five minutes on a glass cannon, but getting hit 1-2 times in a row will reset the run and force you to do five minutes more," OR to play a tankier build that will take ten minutes but can take enough hits that the odds of dying are relatively minimal, then the latter becomes an entirely acceptable option. Slower under ideal cases, but faster if mistakes happen, and therefore much less risky. If the tank would die either way, then who cares?

[@AProbablyPostman]

Only if you're naughty.

[@Hydelix]

Josh's statement at the end there. Bro was speaking facts.

[@santiagoetcheverry9079]

Top multitasking skill... Exercise + Streaming + Gaming

[@martinprince8253]

21:13 „Do lots of damage is the best way to not die“ Ohh no, Putins gonna be immortal

[@PinkNoise-AI]

I literally do this, ill play a couple hours maybe, blast some maps or watever, then randomly die too a boss on a map or weird ground effect i didnt see. and i just log out of the game. its not the ground effects that annoy me, i can learn those, 90% of the time i dont instantly jump on bosses now after i kill them, i look around, check my feet, wait for any animations to finish etc. but dying to a hit from a boss in a map, or getting stunned/frozen from a random mob shot, then insta gibbed, loosing all the map, loot + xp....i jus log out and do something else.

[@EvilCronos13]

I played Stellar Blade and the only thing that happens when you die, is that you respawn and try again and this works fine for me. Some bosses would kill me for an hour and I would just keep trying until I won. I kept learning as I tried and it didn't make the game harder or put more time in-between attempts by making me do other things or loose things before trying again.

[@twistedumbrella7537]

I will say, even if you can be one shot with maximum defense, that is not to say you should abandon defences in their entirety, as while it doesn't prevent you from getting one shot from everything, it reduces the amounts of times you get one shot significantly.

[@reedm7619]

Damn, the reduced loot point is so good. I can't put my finger on it, but so many other games from other genres did the same thing.

[@Phillz91]

Mechanics aside, the death penalty for End Game is just a complete juxtaposition to what the campaign teaches you. In the campaign you know bosses are hard but there is a checkpoint right there and multiple attempts is expected. If you die in an area it gets reset and you give it another go. Then you get to endgame and you lose basically everything from that fight and more. The end game was cobbled together quickly so I expect this to change, but is odd it was a design to start with.

[@unleashedbread6146]

I will never be fine with only getting a few tries against a very difficult boss. Farming for boss attempts is horrrrrrrrrrrible.

[@Raskoril]

Having an access cost for pinnacle bosses is important for the economy of the game- it gives people who have access to the boss but not the ability or desire to complete it something to farm that is valuable, i.e. the fragments. This has been a very important part of the poe1 economy for over a decade, and it likely will remain so for both games. I will agree that one portal is bullshit though, ESPECIALLY after you've already 'completed' a map.

[@ccrazool]

The 3 citadels should be unique. Only one of each in the Atlas, just like the big red fort. Also, just like the big red fort, the citadels should be guaranteed to spawn near your starting place, but much further away than the big red fort. Let's say, each is at a randomized location within ~50 nodes of your starting place. Then they add a new "key" item on the same loot table as barya/ultimatums. Now you have reusable citadels that you're sure to find eventually, that require one barya per attempt. Tell me I solved it, lads.

[@nethalar]

Its actually crazy how mad people from the community get when you make negative but constructive criticism of their game that they derive validation in thru a sense of 'having skill'. There is no skill in getting lucky on gear rolls to make your character better. Its just a numbers game. I too can use the trade site after duping the most expensive item in the game and I too can clear T4 Pinnacle. Thats not skill, thats just knowing how to use the trade site. I've got about 400 hours now and droprates have been horrible even with stacked rarity and juicy maps, so not only is the game punishing, but when you actually win, its not rewarding either! The only difficult thing about this game is not getting body blocked, dying to on death effects, and hard to see ground effects that kill you in seconds if not instantly even with all max res. We paid to beta test and now that people are giving feedback we're being told we are wrong lmao. PoE's community will drive more players away then anything else.

[@ZenPaladin]

Interesting comment about Shakespeare. It's all plays after all. An it's usually reduced to reading which isn't its intended vector.

[@EnzoVinZ]

The whole endgame is like the military, you rise through the ranks then you make a single mistake that you ended up court marshalled and stripped of all your ranks back to being a private at the same time losing all benefits and privileges. They need to chill. It's just a game, and game is suppose to be fun.

[@Valinrista]

There are times where punishment can be a cool mechanics but generally in my opinion it's better game design to rewards players for being good rather than punish them for being bad. Both cases incentivize the player to learn about the game and get better at it but one option feels more rewarding and motivating than the other. It's kinda the same thing when training a pet or a kid tbh

[@dach829]

Thankyou for my daily subconscious reminder to exercise

[@SirCanuckelhead]

Maybe at level 95 this kicks in as I still love the idea that not everyone can hit 100, it isn’t a matter of time, you need to achieve 100 not just grind to get it.

[@EastyyBlogspot]

There was a shoot em up i think it was called Borders down and when u died the game upped the difficulty which i always thought was weird lol

[@GarredHATES]

I love listening to Josh. He’s a wise video game Sage.

[@HenriqueTamashiroZeratul]

To the point that you ignore the failure entirely

[@rpglover101]

It’s mythic keys in WoW, and I was kinda under the impression we all knew those are a design mistake

[@robertbauerle5592]

@3:00 did this earlier today. Had a map with +117% rarity, delirium, expedition, breach, rituals, and it was irradiated. Crazy map. Went in, did delirium, did all the rituals, did the expedition, died during the breach from projectiles that weren't rendering because the enemies had only just spawned. 7k hp gone in half less than a second. Paused the game too late, couldn't respawn in time (I hate the fact that you need to be good at doing that in order for the game to be reasonable). Lost, visibly, a vaal orb, chaos orb, and some other decent stuff, and who knows what else dropped during the breach, and whatever else may have dropped during the breach. I'm level 86 right now, about 130 hours into the game, gear has about 100% rarity with triple golden charm. Only gotten 1 divine drop my entire playtime so far, no citadels found. I don't really enjoy mapping that much, I'd rather be doing trial of sekh and trial of chaos (if trial of chaos became less insanely punishing and you didn't need to find keys in order to do it) since I think those end game mechanics are infinitely more interesting than any mapping mechanic I've seen thus far. Especially the gauntlet trials. I love it when the game isn't just "here's 200 common mobs, a few magic mobs, and a rare or two running at your face - kill em all and collect some loot, then do it again and again and again... etc."

[@raechu_01210]

My favourite hard game is super meat boy, because of this concept! In Super Meat Boy levels are like 30-60 seconds long. You never really get that feeling of "ARGH I just lost my progress!" because all you lost was like 15 seconds of platforming, that you now know how to do again. PS Bosses should allow 6 portals, it just needs to reset the boss's health when you die like Dark Souls does. In PoE 1 you could cheese bosses because when you died the boss's health didn't reset. That's why 6 portal strats were OP. That's the whole problem.

[@tioalra6746]

one of my favorite games, stolen realm, had extremly challenging bossfights, with the option to refight them as often as you want. you lose previously used consumables, but nothing else. then they changed it to when you die, you have to redo the entire dungeon, but the bosses are way easier. i really preferred the way it was previously.