LAPUA CENTER X; 22LR MATCH AMMUNITION SORTING PART 2 (100 YARDS)

[@theunforgivenpuritan4102]

I was shooting at 50 yards today...and old timer comes and sits at the next bench. He had 3 .22lr benchrest rifles from the 1960s and 70s. The were all wood, heavy with flat rear bottom and thick heavy forearm. Bull barrel. Super long skinny scopes that adjusted in the front. He was shooting centerX. He put 5 shots in the same hole.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Nice. Probably were anshutz rifles

[@kdean8129]

I have several Anschutz rimfires. Can't wait for spring to get out of the snow and back on the range here in Canada. I use a proper bench technique . Rear bag front rest for testing and many brands and lots to see what works best in each. In past RWS Eley Win T22 and Win Expert are all phenomenal to 100meters. At 50 yds there should be only a single ragged hole for 10 shots to be accepted and at 100 a nickel size max group on a calm day.

[@XRING]

Great test Josh! I noticed similar results when I got started down this rabbit hole. Thanks for taking the time to do this video.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Hey X-Ring! I appreciate it, just trying to get on your level 😁😁

[@kalenderquantentunnel9411]

Flawless work! Thanks you're putting time into this, I appreciate it.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks

[@timrink256]

Thanks for putting in the time. Interesting to see the results.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks Tim

[@99zebster]

Great video! I believe sorting is just another rabbit hole.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks Skoal. Yeah but i love it haha 😁😁

[@arthurdirindinjr1792]

Impeccable work and of immeasurable help to those of us just getting into the sport. As I am like 90% of all shooters I only have so much time besides work and family I can spend on shooting add in to this my rifle club is a 40 minutes from my home so you proving that sorting 22lr ammo is simply not worth your most precious of commodities time to do it, and when it comes to ammo sorting stick to lot testing as your best use of time in regards to ammunition selection You sir have my envy for having a range in your back yard Once again superb content

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks Arthur, appreciate you watching

[@gigagiga4172]

Best videos in 22lr Thanks!!!

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks a lot Giga giga

[@charlesfitzgerald6095]

Thanks for your input on the sorting question! I will continue to sort because it is one less thing to worry about when I am trying to hit a dot at 50 yards. My sorted groups have always came out tighter then the unsorted, but I only test at 50 yards which is what I always shoot be it Bench rest or KYL. Thanks again!

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Appreciate the comment Charles.

[@tonyparker6650]

Love the Groundhog day clip....made me laugh

[@sagecreekgus7779]

A very interesting test. I have degrees in math and physics so like to look at grouping from that perspective. Testing of Lapua Center X by Bryan Litz of Applied Ballistics showed it has an average muzzle velocity of 1064 fps with a standard deviation of 7.4 fps. A ballistics coefficient of .155 with a standard deviation of the BC of .007. Statistics tells us that 95% of data will fall within two SD's above and below the mean (average). So 95% of the muzzle velocities will be between 1078.8 fps and 1049.2 fps. (1064 + or - 7.4 x 2) This results in 95% of the shots having a vertical spread of .74 inches. But this also means that 5% of the shots will be above or below this spread. So for 50 shots, on the average, 47.5 will be in this 95% vertical spread and 2.5 shots will be ether higher or lower. So for your 40 shots having two stray out of that .74 inch vertical spread is to be expected. This is only taking into account the variation in muzzle velocities for the 50 shots. Olther factors will contribute to an even larger vertical spread. These variations in MV make group shooting something like rolling dice. Sometimes you beat the odds and get a nice small vertical spread and sometimes the odds are against you and you get a bad one. It's important to keep that in mind when evaluating testing. A large number of test groups are needed to see if any observed variation in a test are valid. Wind is also a factor. A change in wind speed of one mph from one shot to the next will move the bullet's impact about 1/3 of an inch. I've weighed two boxes of Lapua Center X of different lots. One box had an average weight of 51.64 grains with an SD of .050 the other weighted an average of 51.71 with an SD of .024. All good numbers. I've done a little testing of sorting rounds by weight. I tested the Federal Auto Match which come in boxes of 325 rounds because I found they shot pretty well but there were occasional fliers. I sorted out 25 that all had the same weight of 51.6 grains, which was the mean value of the rounds, and compared those with 25 rounds out of the box. There was a significant improvement in group size in this case. I'm mostly shooting the 22 LR at 400 yards. At that range the variation in BC's becomes significant and depending upon the numbers for a particular cartridge the variation in BC is more of a contributor to vertical spread than is the variation in MV. About the smallest vertical spread obtainable at 400 yards for 22 LR is around 14 inches. The testing I did of the Federal Auto Match was done at this distance. I prefer to measure group size by using the Group Mean Radius method. This measures how far each shot is from the center of the group which means the location of every shot is taken into account. By measuring the distance between the two shots farthest apart the location of three shots are ignored. For example, if there are four shots in one hole and one shots is a flyer one inch away that would be considered a one inch group if just measuring extreme spread. Group Mean Radius in this case is .320 inches.

[@smiller9980]

Great channel. Thank you for the hard work.

[@FlowBaka]

Ohhh, digging the new graphics!

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks Nam! Will be using these to clarify points of interest in future videos

[@70willard]

When I shot bench rest 22 lr the old timers would say they don’t sort the ammo because of exactly what you were just talking about . It didn’t matter they still had flyers . great video though josh it puts things in perspective, it does help for the non match grade ammo for sure but the match ammo I feel is about where it’s going to be at certain distances

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Yeah im thinking the same Willard. Appreciate the comment and support

[@jennifermorgan6913]

thanks! great vid.

[@anthonykhalil70]

Great comparison.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks

[@ridgewalker2416]

First I thank you and I have really enjoyed your videos. Second, I believe you should have weighed and measured the so called “out of the box unsorted” rounds to make certain they actually hit the broad spectrum of weight and dimensions. It is always possible that even by sorting, the left overs are more average than the sorted. Just a thought. Thanks for the excellent videos!

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Hey Ridgewalker, I see what your saying. I could be wrong, but i believe I only used the discarded ammo for sighters and barrel foulers and used straight out of the box ammo for the groups. My memory isnt great though haha

[@ShooterB1]

Lapua QC is pretty good. I think that is what we are paying for. Its going to be as good as it is.

[@hesa3656]

Thank You Sir! It was good to see these results! 👍🇺🇸 #22aday

[@ianklauss4235]

Would be interesting to see what the results would be for the same tests done for Lapua Midas + and the X-act? But would be on the expensive side. Thanks for the effort you put in.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Appreciate it Ian

[@brendonbenson]

Great work Josh that's me not sorting ammo Tuner is the way forward 🤫

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

I have a tuner on the way for testing

[@tuffy173]

It would be nice to know your scope power, rifle model and shooting position used in the two videos. Hats off for the presentation and clarity of the videos.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Scope was at 20x. Front bipod, rear bag off of a concrete bench.

[@joed3264]

LOL, I learned that a long time ago. Not worth sorting. We had an interesting .22 Sniper Match today. We had 5 people shoot 59/60. The tie breaker is the most hits at 200 and back to closer distances. I missed at 75 yds to win the match. The next closest shooter missed at 100 yds. My 75 yard miss went 3 inches over the steel target. Way too much powder in that bullet. Was shooting Center-X. The old Bergara shot well.

[@Dwayne7834]

Good video . I have tried to sort some cheaper ammo. It’s the cheaper ones. They was some differences. But have not tried good ammunition.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks for the comment Dwayne

[@biagiocozza8875]

Great video Josh. That was an interesting result. Like you said, shoot it from the box, it is not going to make that big of a difference.

[@maikata329]

You posted the video in July. Not sure where you are located, but a couple of factors not mentioned but could very well play into it is 1) Mirage could have altered your sight picture even with telescopic magnification. The higher the magnification the worse it will be. 2) The temperature of the air. 3) was the barrel clean when you started or did you shoot fouling shots prior to turning on the camera. 4) the better groups you produced happened when the leaves on the tree to your right were not in motion.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

All good points but also points that also indicate the results werent drastic enough to negate small variables in environmentals

[@gigagiga4172]

The barrel tunner will be interested

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Yes im looking forward to testing it

[@2259alfie]

Good shooting

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks

[@ericrumpel3105]

Thanks fer sharing part2, how often do you clean your 22 barrel/barrels?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

After every serious session

[@ericrumpel3105]

@@PursuitofAccuracy ...have you ever shared your regimen on a video on that, & if not, may I ask for a brief description? TIA

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@ericrumpel3105 im actually getting ready to film and release that very video

[@ericrumpel3105]

@@PursuitofAccuracy I just happened to find one of your videos on that. - Thank You Sir for replying.

[@terrykleypas50]

Great test. Can't wait for the tuner....Man, that one group in the sorted ruined the average.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Yeah it sure went wheels up on that 1 group. Though looking at the spread minus the bad group in each set they still essentially shot the same

[@johnmartin6804]

Josh, I shoot BR 22 lr 50-100 yards, cz457 MTR with a tuner, I sort my mides + by rim thickness. It seems to help me because of the head spacing. My last match score was 600 out of 600 with 56 out of 60 x-rings. Before I started sorting by rim thickness I was shooting in the 598 and 599s.Old Fort Gun Club. If I was shooting steel targets I would not sort higher end ammo.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Thanks for the comment and insight John

[@johnutting9615]

Were you using aperature sights or scope for your 60 shot match ?

[@johnmartin6804]

Scope

[@johnmartin6804]

You can go to old fort gun club face book page. And get rules and class.

[@AdventureswithZack]

That first shot was like oh my…

[@tompuckett9937]

What happens if you try, not shooting your rifle like it a semi-auto, and work the bolt like your going to do some serious target shooting???? I’ve watched many different videos, and everyone is slamming their bolts like they are hammers. I’m sure this kind of bolt operation can’t be good for the life of the rifle. Great video!!! I’ve been to the Lapua test tunnel here in Mesa Arizona many times with friends having their rifles tested for which ammo lot shoots best in their rifles. Always fascinating how one lot will shoot badly at 50 yds and is a tack driver at 100yds, or vice versa!!!

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

I work the bolt like it owes me money, mostly because it does 🤣

[@capomand45]

Great test! What bipod and rail are you using????Please?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Using an atlas bt46 and the area 419 12" universal arca swiss rail

[@dalecauthen9086]

Those 100 yard groups were ugly, surprising. But, we only shoot bench rest competition at 50 yards. And to be "in the hunt', you pretty much have to shoot the "donut holes" out of the bulls eyes. So if you're not shooting 1/4" groups, you're going to get grinned at. However, my CZ457 MTR doesn't shoot nearly as well as my older 452 either. Sorting has shown worthwhile results for me, but some brands and even different lots show greater rewards for the effort. And a lot depends on how hard you're willing to work for the bragging rights. Thanks for the interesting video.

[@earlhetrick3950]

Try sort by length. I tried it with 17 WSM and it made a difference

[@2226robin]

8:40, Lapua Center -X , 28 cents per round, about 3X of bulk ammo and it is “still middle of the road” , so how much do you think the high end match ammo cost ? :) . Since the pandemic I only can afford the bulk ammo :)

[@ronbimeal8341]

Hey Josh what type of bipod are you using, do you find it more stable the way you have it set u

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@ronbimeal8341 I was using an atlas bt46 then. It's very stable with a bipod and bag

[@marklanphear6898]

Love your channel! Thanks for your research. How do I buy a P of A T-shirt?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

I have some but i really havent started selling anything yet. [e-mail] Shoot me an email with your size please

[@stevenxindaris1477]

I sort them out differently. I just pull out ones that are way out in weight or rim thickness. Seems to cut down on fliers.

[@stevenclark7070]

Have you noticed any better accuracy from swimming the barrel for head space. Saw one of your videos where you were playing with it. Would those shims work on a 10/22?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

The headspace does affect accuracy. Those shims were inteded for use with the cz lilja barrel. I wouldnt add shims to any "prefit" barrel not intended to be shimmed

[@stevenclark7070]

Ihad changed out my barrel with a 24" Green River BB. Noticed some bullet shavings. It seemed to be just sering the round as it was being chambered. Reamed the chamber opening with a TandemKross chamber reamer and seemed to help. Wasnt sure if the barrel depth might had been too deep and causing the problem.

[@maikata329]

Comparing ammo results with a mag fed rifle that is inherently less accurate than a single shot match chamber is not a conclusive test. However, accuracy is relative to the demands of the match type. Pinging steel targets vs F-Class smallbore isn’t the same game.

[@rulff]

Great! Tell me, what zoom are you shooting at 100 yards?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

20 power was what i was using. Thats max power on that scope. For target shooting i almost always use max power

[@josephcharlesaustin8216]

HI Josh I dont know if you have watch the videos of your bolt as you fire the round , it moves upward.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Yeah i have seen it. I think its pretty typical for it to unlock after the round has fired

[@josephcharlesaustin8216]

@@PursuitofAccuracy Not so sure Josh as that is the new CZ bolt. Because of it I went for the Weihrauch 66 JM

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@josephcharlesaustin8216 it does it both of my 457's. Most the bolt pressure is applied by the sear and once it releases the bolt loosens up allowing it to jump

[@josephcharlesaustin8216]

@@PursuitofAccuracy Thanks Josh

[@josephcharlesaustin8216]

Josh have you tested the CCI clean ammo

[@jimmccaffery410]

Hey bud, I just got back from Lapua,Mesa AZ. I have a few questions to ask you. The sorted ammo, was that from a lot that the performance center recommended? Other than the scope our rigs are identical, but I don’t torque to the levels you do. Brand new Lilja barrel. I got no lots that would shoot MOA at 100 meters. The guy in AZ said they had a company meeting last week and they mentioned you!

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Jim, that ammo was purchased from the test center but it was tested for the lilja barrel not the stock mtr barrel im using in the video. Did you end up getting any ammo from lapua? Haha thats funny they mentioned me, wonder if thats a good or a bad thing 🤣🤣

[@jimmccaffery410]

Only 24 hours since the test. I need to study what lot, if any, will be worth investing time and money into. I have a bunch of Wolf Match Extra and it shoots similar size groups and costs 2/3 the cost of CenterX. I feel like I wasted a lot of money on the Lilja barrel. It was good to see the gun shoot without any human input/error, now my groups make more sense.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@jimmccaffery410 the lilja are chamber cut for eley and seem to shoot it very well. Also did you play with headspace? Most of the lots i shot during testing, with my lilja, were not impressive. 1 lot, the lot i got, did decent but not super great. The new center x lots just dont seem to be as good as what they were in previous years

[@jimmccaffery410]

That they knew you added credibility to what I was saying. Hey have you ever taken the bolt and placed rounds in the groove that cradles the rim. Measuring the rim may be a thing. You can feel the play on Wolf cartridge and how much tighter the CenterX is. Don’t know if that makes a difference because the chamber face may eliminate all the sloop when the bolt is cocked and locked for firing. Just a thought, no answer yet.

[@jofher007]

Have you ever tried using a limsaver barrel dampener on your rimfire rifle?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

I have not. Ive seen people use thrm as a diy tuner though

[@lazybear236]

The first group was 2 inches. There was a flyer near the second target which has six shots. Right?

[@richardsveum8452]

I've watched a ton of your video's lately and any time you shoot 4 groups the 3rd target is always the worst. Eye fatigue maybe or parallax off a bit?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Not sure honestly. Could be eye fatigue

[@lawrencehawk5179]

Have a Ruger spring bipod from the 80s that latches on to the barrel. What you think of them where it goes on the barrel instead of the stock?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

For precision shooting i would caution against it. That will change your barrel harmonics depending where its clamped and also will most likely change your POI as well depending on barrel diameter and how far out the bipod is. Even a low weight suppressor hanging off a barrel will drop the poi, imagine supporting the rifles weight on the barrel.

[@lawrencehawk5179]

@@PursuitofAccuracy how about the barrel band for my 10/22? So should I remove it for better result? + I ordered a flash hider and muzzle brake for a standard barrel to try them out. Or just stick with nothing on the tip of my barrel?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@lawrencehawk5179 a free floated barrel is always better imo

[@lawrencehawk5179]

@@PursuitofAccuracy ok one more and I'll stop, have a 16" and would like to try a longer one. Saw two sizes in standard barrel. One is 20" & other is 18.5". Getting mixed opinions on length. Which would be a right choice for my 22lr? Thanks for your 2 cents by the way, some don't bother answering my questions.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@lawrencehawk5179 The 18.5" will burn all the powder and be a good choice. The 20" wont get you anything in terms of performance for a general purpose precision 22lr.

[@jerryjackson5939]

How can you do ammo testing on a windy day? I can see the leaves moving. In my opinion that wouldn't produce accurate data.

[@xnorcal831x]

Wouldnt using calipers to measure the depth face of the bolt give you optimal case thickness? Then just weight sort the ones with that rim thickness should give you the best for your rifle

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

I suppose you could do that but the center x is so consistent across rim thickness your likely stuck with the most common thickness anyways

[@jimhamilton3544]

Goog video Josh, I am changing my mind on sorting. How does anyone enjoy sorting 🥴😂😂 Maybe on cheap ammo ps what Althon scope are you using ?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Hey Jim. Appreciate the comment. On that 457 i have the Athlon Helos btr gen 2 4-20

[@bobheale2521]

Ha. I guess I should have watched this vid before commenting on part 1

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

No worries Bob. It took us all for a ride lmao

[@thefarguy1802]

I n my humble opinion, I get the feeling you are having a lead build up in your barrel , the groups unsorted and sorted looks the same , see if you are having this pattern on 11-15 shots strings , I noticed on my MTR at early stages of shooting groups, and during cleaning found specks of lead on my patches , luckily disappeared after 800 + rounds . I cleaned after every session of 75-100 till patches came clean . I never use any Steel or bronze brushes as a practice , thoroughly brush ( plastic) with foaming bore cleaner , leave it on 5 minutes and clean till patches come out with nothing and oil patch . I wished you tested these group shooting with a Anschutz 1712 / 1710 as a bench mark for testing

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Hey Thefar Guy i appreciate the comment. I run basically the same cleaning regiment you described. The wind is a big factor at 100 yards and is most of the pattern you are referring to, i believe. This test was just meant to be a gross group size test between the two and to see if sorting would eliminate any flyers. I dont have access, unfortunately, to any anshutz rifles currently. Sure do wish i could get my hands on the new competition though

[@thefarguy1802]

@@PursuitofAccuracy keep record of all your shots and you can eliminate these fears/ things that sends groups wild. I have an Anchutz 1712/ MTR/ VPT cz457/ Izhmash 7-2 Unfortunately the range I shoot is good for sending 🪁 kites , on the lookout for a good calm rang around Mt Washington Kentucky, if you live close by I will let you run the Anchutz 1712 for the channel

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@thefarguy1802 appreciate the offer, im a little bit aways in NC

[@hesa3656]

Do polymer brushes need to be cleaned/sprayed with brake cleaner and let to dry after bore cleaning? I noticed Ray at XRing sprays brass bore brushes with brake cleaner after cleaning copper from barrels.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

@@hesa3656 i dont with my nylon brushes. Im just using them to break up build up in the bore

[@davidsalsedo]

What are the chances that you mixed the two batches of ammo up?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Anything's possible, but not likely

[@practicalplinking6133]

when I started all this accuracy stuff, I tried Winchester Wildcat. they were so far apart I thought I was shooting blanks. I had 9 of the "shootnc" 6" targets on black base sheet. gave a 2/3 box back to my LGS. Been with Lapua & CCI Green Tag since. well, till biden came along that is.

[@davidsicard2651]

I determined the same thing

[@jamesbyers9391]

I like the rifle with the right ammo I bet that rifle shot 10.in one hole

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Its a very accurate rifle

[@johnblackbird7523]

Already

[@donrumato3413]

What BIPOD do you use ?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Atlas bt46

[@donrumato3413]

@@PursuitofAccuracy Thank you

[@mariogaudiomonte5866]

Is that a 20 or 30 moa rail ?

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

30 moa

[@allenhoagland9967]

@@PursuitofAccuracy alot of the fliers are caused from shootin of thr buypod

[@matthewrezuke8130]

Why not use the lilja barrel? Those barrels are known to love center x. With the sorting try different weights too.. used to do the same with pellet guns. Weight and diameter.

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

The lilja barrel is currently set up for my eley match. I run a tighter headspace on eley vs lapua and since its also my main competition gun im trying not to mess with it too much. With any luck we will have some new aftermarket barrels for the channel to play with soon

[@warriorrod2382]

You didn’t look at the wind one time .....and your rifle should be in a better rest! ....meh

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Shooting for groups im not changing poa. As far as the rest, bag and bipod are very stable if your used to using it

[@sonnomar]

I think the rifle it's bad for the group with this ammunition try whiteout rifle maybe anschutz, Walter or better brands

[@PursuitofAccuracy]

Hi Santos, the rifle actually shoots that ammo fairly well, what is opening the groups up is wind, as you can see in the video, but even with wind they were shooting sub moa at 100 yards. Thanks for the comment

[@willhawthorne-jj7up]

Norma match 22lr are mor accurate

[@jimdavis1124]

After shooting ARA at my outdoor range and in my underground range for 12 plus years I have a good idea about sorting cheep and expensive 22 lr ammo. If you would like to contact me I would share my thoughts and experience sorting lr ammo. Jim

[@delam]

I'm interested in the ammo but more interested in your underground range.