Quality Men: The truth behind the body count discussion

[@TheMisterGuy]

Every time I hear "body count" from a man who isn't voluntarily celibate, I hear a self-report. I hear a man saying that he believes himself to be such a bad sexual partner that no woman with any experience would find him acceptable.

[@marv34001]

Yeah that first thing they think, “You’ve been through too much cock for me to please you” keep coping

[@zacharybosley1935]

Yeah, that's a bit of the problem no? "Why wasn't I enough?" All things being equal, the shock of realizing that you're not worthy of the same connection that was earned by others seems like a rational emotional response on the surface. How that gets managed on the other hand...

[@amberinthemist7912]

​@@zacharybosley1935absolutely missed the point.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@amberinthemist7912 no, i agree that it's a self report I just disagree on what the report is.

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@zacharybosley1935 "...the shock of realizing that you're not worthy of the same connection that was earned by others..." I'm not even saying that these men are actually inadequate as sexual partners. I'm saying they seem to that of themselves. They could be right or wrong, I don't know.

[@5Demona5]

I remember a Reddit story of a virgin 20-something lady who knew this guy who would hop from chick to chick, but wouldn't bang them if "they have a high body count, cause I don't like sluuts" He then tried to go with OP and she rejected him for his high body count, he's a male sluut. He got furious 😂

[@HaleyJo1992]

Reminds me of the guy who didn't want marriage, but didn't want to date a woman who also didn't want to get married. Because he wanted a 'good woman' and if a woman didn't want to be married, she wasn't a good woman.

[@nancymeehan3874]

There is no such thing as a male slut!! LOL

[@lkeke35]

The irony is if she had slept with him he would have slut-shamed her too!

[@masumi1990x]

Some time ago I found on ex-Twitter a very short "comics". A woman with a man are sitting on her bed. He wants to have seggs, she wants to wait till marriage because she's a virgin. Next scene she's sitting alone. Comments under this story were wild. Men were calling her "hoe". Moral of the story, a hoe is NOT a woman who have seggs with multiple men. A hoe is a woman who doesn't want to have seggs with them specifically.

[@Himmiefan]

Oh yeah, I didn't give a certain man a second look because it was well know that he had a lot of milage on him.

[@ctgal9698]

Years ago body count equated to how many people serial killers deleted

[@pigcatapult]

Yeah it’s still jarring to me

[@xejelah]

@@pigcatapult still does - and that's how I respond to that question. My body count? Including the ones in the hospital or just the ones actually rotting in the ground?

[@strawberrysangria1474]

It's funny when someone says they're too good for you, and you accept it. I had a guy in high school tell me he'd never take me out, and I agreed. He asked why and I said we don't like each other. He lost his mind and spent the entire week strutting like a peacock while giving me every reason to want him. Eventually, I said "Okay, fine. You're hot." and he ran off to tell everyone I'm a lesbian. I don't think he achieved his goal, but I'm not sure what that goal was in the end.

[@truckin_babe]

It's okay for them to reject you, but not okay for you to reject them. It's a form of insanity, seriously.

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

"hmm if I say Im too good for her she will definitely want my attention." the entire circus of mental gymnastics and then he has the audacity to get offended when his fantasy doesnt turn into reality.

[@Alex-mc5yn]

The goal was to humble you and you didn't let it happen.

[@attitudeproblem6462]

Seems it was okay for him not to like you but it wasn’t okay for _you_ not to like him.🤦🏾‍♀️🫠🙄

[@grummelameise]

you were rejected initially though

[@jessicarowley9631]

Bang on the money! I have worked every job from bar staff to trading floor in a number of countries. The only time I have been safe saying a gentle "no" was when I could run a 5 minute mile. Never rude or unkind. Too often attacked for wanting to be able to choose my partner.

[@tajr.2650]

I def feel that one.

[@thomascromwell6840]

As a man who used to think like this, I completely agree.

[@ladosis5596]

What changed your mind?

[@thomascromwell6840]

@@ladosis5596 I just realised that people are just living their lives and trying to do their best. That I was not better than the misogynist next to me just because I had had the experiences that made me think of women as regular people, like having excellent parents, good friends and spending time with some of the smartest men and women I have known. And other thoughts like that which gradually waned because I listened to people who were kinder and more understanding than me.

[@GoldieBrown-pc6mb]

​@@thomascromwell6840 Do you mention that when your male friends or family are present? Do you discuss it with them ? What is their response?

[@helgaioannidis9365]

My unpopular opinion is that this kind of men needs compassion and genuine love from other men before they can trust women. They're so scared of the feminine in general that developing skills that they see as feminine seems like degrading themselves, castrating themselves. They first need to meet a man they can trust that can act as a role model.

[@corbanekarel3692]

It should be a popular opinion. It acknowledges men's needs without villainization AND doesn't put anything on women. That's perfect.

[@anthill1510]

I totally agree. I realized that a lot of the most attractive men I know are bisexual men and I thought about why that is. It`s easy: They all got over the "oh no, I can`t have this hobby, that`s feminine" and the "I can`t show any affection to my guy friends and have actual emotional connections to them, because that`s gay!". They are way more well-rounded, interesting and emotional mature people than most purely hetero men because when they came out as bi they had to get over all this unhealthy stuff that is still associated with "being masculine" for a lot of men.

[@kikijewell2967]

Women: "I'm lonely." Blames self. Goes and makes female friends Men: "I'm lonely" blames women.

[@moonstrukk126]

@@corbanekarel3692 What do you mean it doesn't put ANYTHING on women? Of course it does, who do you think is expected to have the compassion? Plus men have almost no genuine compassion or empathy so again, who's putting the energy in to "help" men? Women.

[@moonstrukk126]

@@kikijewell2967 Facts.

[@embo_5787]

Funny thing is, I also discovered that some men will still shame you when you have a low BC due to their paranoia and insecurity, it’s wild. That’s how I learnt…THERE IS NO WAY TO WIN, DONT PLAY THE GAME, PLEASE LIVE YOUR LIFE 🙏

[@alexjeffrey3981]

yeah too high body count = "she's for the streets", not rushing into being physical = "she's a prude". I think it really does just come down to being unhappy that women have autonomy and don't come direct from the girlfriend factory to fulfil his every desire without having any of her own.

[@grummelameise]

women will shame men also for being a virgin

[@AoM248]

Yes!! That’s why if I’m asked, I ghost 🤷‍♀️

[@Marivi247]

⁠@@alexjeffrey3981You are so right about the fantasy that they want a girl that was build just to satisfy his needs without having any needs of her own. And also, I think the whole body count shaming is a way to keep women to stay with a man and never leave even if he cheats or abuses her. Because imagine as a woman you save yourself for marriage because you believe you can only be valued as a virgin, and then the man you married cheats on your or is abusive. She might think she has nothing left to offer to another man so she stays with the first one. It’s again a strategy to keep women from making their own decisions about who they want to stay with and who they want to leave. Whereas for a man of course it would always be ok to leave, especially if she cheats or is abusive. Nobody would ask a man to stay with a cheater

[@alexjeffrey3981]

@Marivi247 yep absolutely - I believe the "body count" insecurity comes from two things: firstly, the insecurity that she may have had a better lover than him (far too many guys let their insecurity about their performance in bed get the better of them rather than learning that communication is key to fulfilling intimacy), and secondly a belief that a woman that's had more partners will be more likely to leave them. Which some weirdos online attribute to "pair bonding" nonsense but is quite clearly because if someone's had more experience in relationships they are more capable of setting standards of how they want to be treated. So a woman that's had more partners will be more likely to leave an abusive or lackluster partner because she knows that there's better men out there. I realise we're both saying the same thing, but the rationale coming from men's side is rather absurd and I thought you might find it interesting. Both of which come down to men wanting to maintain low standards for themselves and have their partner accept those low standards - which I find rather pathetic, to be honest.

[@TheShadowChesireCat]

I mean, I read fairy smut and love video game romances because those guys currently out there are so dangerous to me. I already have DV PTSD from a ex physically harming me because being in a relationship didn't magically cure all the problems in his life. Fictional men are safer than the kind of men who's comments get featured here. You may not think yourself capable of losing control and trying to hurt someone, but enough guys who say the same thing as these guys will. It's a behavioural red flag. Colonel Brandon isn't seeking to end Marianne Dashwood's life if she "talks back" to him. Doyle and Frost are deadly dangerous, but not screaming at Meredith about only their pleasure matters to concieve. I can keep going, sadly.

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

like someone said about fantasy. "women use fantasy to humanize men. men use fantasy to dehumanize women."

[@fr33f4l4st1ne]

as a gay (mlm) transmasculine, yeah, i feel this. Was just writing something the other day about how i can only find the men i want in fantasy, and it hurts that i havent had a real, close, emotionally/physically/sexually safe relationship with a man in...a long time. definitely less than five in my whole life. Meanwhile i can count far more girls and women. its fucking grim out here. patriarchy is corrosive, body mind and spirit, and too many men are completely okay with being toxic.

[@kikijewell2967]

​​@@KossolaxtheForeswornoh dang. Harsh but so true. Wow. Edit: this is actually helping me to soothe my loneliness with fantasy. I guess it is ok to have unrealistic men in my fantasy stories. Maybe that's the only place I can find them...

[@attitudeproblem6462]

_So_ there w/ you. Fictional males for the win!

[@Raven.Madness]

@@fr33f4l4st1neyou’ve been hurt so much by patriarchy and misogyny that you’ve attempted to opt out of being seen and treated as a woman. You’re not a gay male, you’re a heterosexual female emulating a gay man. You enjoy romantic fantasy because it paints men in a better light, this is a coping mechanism.

[@involuntarilycelebrate]

I'm a sex worker and I can tell you, most guys don't actually care about body count. Many of them, the body count turns them on. I agree with this man, it's not about the amount of men it's about the fact that you don't want him specifically

[@carnevalmefisto]

To be honest I wonder if the men you meet don't care about body count because they are well aware you're a sex worker. Men tend to pick different types of women for causal sex and different to date. [Well, it's similar for women - the thirst for muscular men doesn't mean women actually would want them as partners. Hook up - yes, but muscles ain't everything. Even the prettiest face will become daily basics, personality is far more important long-term]. But anyway, it's the comparison they are actually afraid of. A higher body count - chances of having a far better lover before is BIG. And they don't want to hear their pp is pathetic.

[@grummelameise]

BECAUSE you are a sex worker.

[@ssiegreen5292]

@@carnevalmefisto Good point!

[@incisivecommenter5974]

​@@carnevalmefistoits insecurity all along.

[@Ferrist1]

This could be a skewed POV of men too considering the type of interaction you're maintaining with them and the demographic you're pulling your perspective from.

[@Weirdkauz]

As a film theorist I can say with confidence that even movies about seemingly strong, powerful heroines, are pushing this narrative, at least in the action genres: she has to meet a man that's better than her, stronger and even smarter... or remain alone, which, in Hollywood standards, is a tragic thing.

[@sisuguillam5109]

True!

[@Marivi247]

Yesss thank you!!! 🙏 I hate it when the strong female character is fated to lead a lonely life because she is so amazing that no man is superior to her. It’s like telling young girls please do not be successful or else nobody will want you. Why? To protect male egos

[@Weirdkauz]

@ yepp, it's also saying that in a relationship, females must look up to their males. As well as males must be better in everything, so that is really a terrible standard for all involved. Imagine having to be the stronger, smarter, and generally superior around half of humanity - or else be seen as a weakling loser... Patriarchy is an effed up system hurting everyone and effectively dividing the sexes.

[@grummelameise]

or you just use feminie qualities to be a hero, like princess leia. she was always in control.

[@lkeke35]

Except one of these guys biggest problems is their complete lack of curiosity, not just about women but about themselves. Its hard to have a romantic relationship with a person who lacks curiosity about the world they live in, unless you're exactly like that too.

[@jujubesification]

I spent time working on myself to be a good partner in a relationship. The kind of relationship I wanted, I mean. I'm not a housekeeping kind of person, I don't think men are superior, I am an equality kind of feminist. As I already did this work on myself, by the time I met my partner our relationship has mostly just been easy smooth sailing. Together for nearly 20 years, so it works: still in love. I think one of the most important things is to not get into power dynamics. When you are trying to be above the other, you're not able to see each other. Another important aspect, that follows from the first, is seeing the value of the other. How they enrich other people's lives, including your own. How they set boundaries for themselves, how they respect yours. It really helps when you also see your own value, what you're bringing to the table. Lastly, it really helps to spend a significant amount of time having positive experiences together. What I've found: people aren't just a certain way, it also can make a real difference in how you are able to approach them. To be sure: you can't change who they are and their range of responses is already within them. So if the range of responses is not ok, it's them and not you. Their full range will come out, no matter what you do or how careful you are. Still, the kind of relationship you are able to have, is really impacted by how you are seeing the other person. The way you see them directly influences the way you treat them, which they can tell. Make sure the light stays on in both your eyes.

[@xejelah]

You attract the type of love you think you deserve

[@Noora11_3]

I love this comment. ❤

[@docrob5320]

Old lady here, I never even heard the term " body count" when i was dating in my teens' , 20s, or even 30s. This is a relatively new concept. Dumb, but new. Who are all the men sleeping with then, each other?

[@GracefulGardenia]

in fact, they are.

[@juliazalewski3023]

The term is new. The concept has been around forever

[@xyincognito]

THe first time I heard it, I thought they were talking about murder

[@SherioCheers]

Any time a man complains about a woman's body count, it's a self-tell that he's practically an incel.

[@gilgamesh7652]

I mean that's the reason that most spiritual traditions around the world says that would be better to remain single(celibat). Men and Women don't want certain things on the other, and that's acctually right people needs to have some basic standards, as a form of self respect. The problem is that some things can be fixed or corrected while some remains on peoples existence as scar or a shadow. Sexual past is kind of one the things that even corrected leaves some scars and shadow

[@vivvy_0]

​@@gilgamesh7652 that's more of a you problem.

[@Sanakudou]

It’s not just incels, but insecure men too. If you lurk around on certain corners of the internet where men think they’re alone together, they end up divulging to each other exactly what their real issues are. Like how they find it unbearably emasculating to encounter women who are more successful in the things a man uses to measure his own success and masculinity. In their mind, being able to have a lot of sexual partners is a big measure of their masculinity, so to discover they’re outperformed by a woman makes them feel ashamed and insecure. This can result in projection, where they start to believe these women are the ones making these judgements (rather than this being their own judgement about themselves), even imagining these women secretly thinking derisively of them (which in turn, becomes the rationale to “justify” getting aggressively confrontational towards these women, tenfold when rejected by them). These men fail to take responsibility for being the origin of their own feelings and for creating and imposing these rigid measures of self worth. These men, incel or not, become too afraid to even try to have sex with such women because they can’t handle the pressure of having their performance judged in reference to so many other people. It’s gross but I’ve seen men admit that a big part of the appeal of younger women (especially teenagers) is they no longer have this pressure of being judged or being inferior by comparison. Their fragile ego is not only safe in such a relationship, but is actively boosted. Being able to denigrate the women concerned for the power dynamics as an admission of jealousy is also a way to boost their own ego. Ultimately, everything circles back to their “need” to alleviate how inferior and emasculated a woman’s success makes them feel.

[@TubeTAG]

I'm probably not gonna have a lot in common with someone with a four digit body count. For everyone else, probably not a good indicator of compatability.

[@anthill1510]

@@gilgamesh7652 It leaves some scars and shadow? What kind of sex do you have? If the sex you imagine is harming people spiritually or physically you maybe souldn`t be having it that way? Or only with very clear consent ...

[@xXOFrannieOXx]

The only man who was ever rude to me about my bodycount was my own brother. He said it was embarrassing to him. I never understood why. To this day, I'm almost 50, it still doesn't make sense to me.

[@Greenplanet949]

My brother is the only one who complained about that to me too. He said “Men act like this, not women.” I ignored it.

[@kayla3246]

​@@Greenplanet949I would love for these men to explain to me who they're having sex with if women "shouldn't behave this way." There's a mathematical error I'm sure they've never considered

[@Greenplanet949]

@ kayla3246 Excellent point

[@kayla3246]

@@Greenplanet949 thanks!

[@elisal318]

Is he the kind that doesn't pursue casual encounters? Maybe he is very close to his values and expectations, and he is projecting that on you as his sibling. Maybe he wishes more women were sharing his values and feels disappointed you have different values than him.

[@shaezchannel]

If I ever heard the words "body count" being uttered by a date, they would never hear from me again. Disgusting terminology and your sexual history is nobody's business but your own. The idea that someone is entitled to that kind of personal information for the sole purpose of using it against you is the biggest red flag there is. RUN.

[@natcl9974]

Someone said why is a man who pursues you worried about men from your past? Whose the focus the woman or the men in the past?

[@teresamagnusson]

I ask men about their body counts. Since I'm middle aged and my count so far is low, I love criticizing their numbers. I tell em their damaged goods.

[@Babygirl-vt2gl]

Well to each their own. I'm a woman but I don't want a man with one. 🥴😭💀😭

[@Marivi247]

Yes even the question makes me cringe even though I have a low body count. Because it shows that you believe my value is linked to the number of men I had sex with. So if I was a virgin and I get married to the man and have sex with him, he will think I am trapped now because if I ever leave, I will have less value because not a virgin anymore. The whole concept is designed to keep women under control and in risk of abuse. Also it really turns me off if you suggest that you sleeping with me will decrease my value. 😂 Who would want that?

[@xejelah]

@@Marivi247 Good question. If his peen devalues me, then why would I want his low value peen?

[@sharonhines3476]

I stopped dating years ago. I'd probably qualify as a mid woman, some good qualities, some bad, just like most people. I stopped because low to mid men think and firmly believe they deserve a high quality women. I knew in my heart they were all settling in their minds. I didn't want to be anyones second choice. I use cars as an example. Men want the looks of a Lamborghini with the reliability of an old-school toyota and upkeep costs of zero. Even if they are AMC Gremlins with all the charm of an Orc. No thanks.

[@EuphemiaWisdom]

They do view women as vehicles/objects/tools/toys. That's why they pursue multiple women, desire variety and can discard you when you aren't doing what they want without any feeling about it. I wish 4B was what I had chosen earlier in life, I could have saved myself from so much abuse.

[@xysarenottheprize]

They all want the 10/10 at no cost and they think no matter what they get, even a perfect Woman, they’re settling. Meanwhile, they’re post-wall, out of shape, balding, antisocial, useless, and broke.

[@embo_5787]

@@EuphemiaWisdomhaha there’s someone in the comments comparing women to a spoon (“I don’t want 5 other people to eat with my spoon before I do”). Probably never ate at a restaurant before 🤷‍♀️

[@embo_5787]

@@EuphemiaWisdomhaha there’s someone in the comments comparing women to a spoon (“I don’t want 5 other people to eat with my spoon before I do”). Probably never ate at a restaurant before 🤷‍♀️

[@EuphemiaWisdom]

@emmm_4465 🤣 🤣 the logical ones, the jokes write themselves

[@manifest2203]

Exactly. Marriage and relationships happen to men across all socio economic levels. And there are women who spend years with them as they go through strggls like addctns and so much more. Even prisons have mn whose wives, gfs visit them regularly and bring them porridges and other stuff to eat and whatnot (the opposite is not true acc to stats). These wmn even take care of the chdrn till he gets out and thr is a life waiting for him. But if wmn get imprisoned no one takes care of the chdrn and they go into foster care and many mthrs don’t know where their kids went and keep searching for them for years. There are studies done on this. But if a dude is a bad fthr and hus6band to begin with (like Tom Brady), then ofcourse he will get dvorced even if he has mney.

[@jasminejeanine2239]

Yep they want us to have higher standards, except when it comes to them.

[@omikrondraconis5708]

You need more reach, really.

[@sardonicrose]

"Fairy Smut" is so oddly specific yet somehow relatable?

[@BrittanyCocchino]

There's fairy smut ? I need to get back on the interwebs .....

[@EuphemiaWisdom]

😂

[@JennyferPepin]

There's more than that 😂

[@neoqwerty]

Go check out withCindy, she roasts a fairy smut book series for all the bad romance tropes (but remember that it's a guilty pleasure and things can just be guilty pleasures or so bad that they're good-- and honestly some authors are better at the smut than the plot. much, much better at the first than the latter.) Also there is a whole OCEAN of monstrous smut (fae, vampires, frankenstein's monster, werewolves, merfolk, angels, mothman-- that's just the tip of the terato/monster lover iceberg).

[@alexjeffrey3981]

my wife's a big fan of the Court of Thorns and Roses series.

[@sisuguillam5109]

You probably find tons on AO3!

[@smol_angr_void7224]

Commenting to boost this in the algorithm because men only really listen to other men, and they need to hear this. Dating is a NIGHTMARE because the vast majority of men have some incredibly horrific beliefs or habits; the more of those beliefs and habits we can weed out, the better society as a whole will be. Thanks for fighting the good fight!

[@CatharticCreation]

literally not one man has asked my body count irl. this seems to be an online gen z thing???

[@Loutron3030]

I think it hits the nail on the head that this only implies a low appraisal of men as a whole rather than reflecting one. For these incel types a man who actually is nice is a "simp," a "white knight" or whatever; there's a question of their authenticity but that's an act of misdirection- even if a man is earnestly nice then that's perceived by the patriarchal mind to be subservient. This perception of subservience in "lowering" oneself to level of a woman is particularly common refrain in this "simp" archetype that really lifts the mask off compared to the now outmoded "white knight" label. Whilst a lot of it does come back to a self-assured sense of male superiority, that only goes part way to explaining their competitive mindset towards other men. After all, they still consider their sovereignty over a woman to be impugned even if she's only been with other men the patriarch would recognise as "alpha," "sigma" or whatever other asinine subcategory of male. A lot of it goes back to a sense of ownership over women, a lot of it is really explicit when you get into incel terminology like "market value" and so forth. When you break it right down, patriarchy at it's core is the idea that women are the property of men. Women having autonomy over their own bodies is at odds with patriarchy, which itself puts men at odds with each other; because under a patriarchal social order women are a form of currency for which men compete. Based on everything I've seen, I've come to the conclusion that this "body count" talk isn't that far removed from the value medieval monarchs placed on the pre-marital virginity of their wives and daughters. It's a world view in which women are objects to be exchanged between men, a world view where things like love and attraction are functionally irrelevant to serve the interests of a select few powerful men. Patriarchy is inextricable from hierarchy after all, it's in the name; so for every incel that's deluded enough to think they'll be King there's atleast a handful that don't realise they're going to be serfs.

[@grummelameise]

seems to me that lately men dont compete at all for women

[@xejelah]

This was amazing

[@andrewgray573]

I think the tie back to medieval ideas and concepts is a good one. Fundamentally, patriarchy is a conservative system. What's being conserved? You may ask. Answer: The wealth, station, and privilege of nobility. Which, when we frame patriarchy in those terms, leads us to an interesting conclusion: The point of patriarchy is NOT "Men win." The point of patriarchy is to preserve the powers of existing lines of patriarchs, and to develop new patriarchs if absolutely necessary. Patriarchy is fundamentally anti-man, as a result. After all, if every man is a patriarch, none are.

[@Loutron3030]

@@andrewgray573 Indeed, under a patriarchal system the means by which new patriarchs are developed is intergenerational and patrilineal. Going back to the ever useful touchstone of medieval politics; "family" is a significantly lower priority than "legacy," "house" or "dynasty," given that the office of patriarch is an exclusive one- even male siblings are expected to compete with one another for dominance within the hierarchy. On a good day there aren't nearly as many armies and assassination plots involved in your average male sibling rivalry, but there are still a lot of men who expect their oldest or otherwise appointed son to be an extension of themselves and to continue some sort of "legacy" that takes priority over the wellbeing and integrity of the wider family unit. The idea that a family should be based on things like love and trust might not be a particularly revolutionary one, but the actual practice is to a large extent. A lot of social practices that contradict our ideals of what family is or should be are still startlingly common in this day and age.

[@andrewgray573]

@Loutron3030 I think the "basis of a relationship" idea is yet another good idea. To use a gaming metaphor: Women are playing poker, men are playing Fortnite. The problem, however, is not that the women are playing poker; the problem is that the men believe either that they also can't play poker or that playing poker will lead to any number of bad consequences. Men and women are playing two different games, and due to the restrictiveness of the Men role, Men believe this is how it has to be, even through everyone playing the same game would be better for all involved. The men who succeed in their role, however, are the ones who choose to play poker, not Fortnite. Successful men see the falsehood of the statement "Men have to play Fortnite" for the limiting deception originated by bad or untaught Men poker players, for what it is.

[@akali83]

The term "body count" is such a ridicules phrase and really needs to die out.

[@vivvy_0]

I can only think of hitmen when I read this😂

[@haruk2312]

Sir, i think you should tag some words. You talk and explain so well but hardly have any views.

[@jenniferhanson6467]

You explained it so well.

[@janinasaam]

I have met a lot of quality men in my life. But that doesn't mean we were made for each other. Hobbys, humor and life expectations can vary and have to fit together to some extent. The perfect partner for Person A may be a terrible partner for me, because we just don't fit together. I have a dog and if someone doesn't like dogs, then it wouldn't work out, no matter how perfect they are otherwise (same goes for my love for anime and other stuff). Just like there are many nice persons out there, you won't be vibing with everyone and you won't be friends with everyone, because you gotta fit together for that. Most men just need to work on themselves to become better people and then they're very likely to get into a healty rs imo

[@janinasaam]

In the percentage of unmarried men are also the men, that don't want to marry. Some people are in rs and have kids, but never married. Or they just don't want a rs or are aromantic. Don't have a clue how many those are, but there are men like that out there even though it's more typically found in women

[@ivechang6720]

When a guy says stuff like that I just say "see my instincts and judgement were good, you aren't a match." Trust me there are plenty out there for me. I'm proudly poly, and in a six year relationship. While I tend to believe in soulmates, I also believe in reincarnation and that my soul mate isn't in this one. My relationship is with someone who lost his. This too happens. So I'm going to enjoy and love well the people who are around me right now. Learning and growing to be better hopefully.

[@teresamagnusson]

I criticize male body counts. They hate it. But mine is very low, so I can say whatever I want to them.

[@ddanielsmc]

​​@@teresamagnussonit's fair. It works both ways. If he wants a virgin then he should be a virgin

[@teresamagnusson]

​@@ddanielsmcIf he wants a housewife, he's going to also need to be a housewife. If he wants a mother for his children, he will also have to learn how to mother children. He will need to be what he seeks. On every level.

[@Chris.R.]

My last boyfriend had a high body count- I didn’t care, I hoped indeed, that with much of experience he knows what he is doing… How wrong I was… he just doesn‘t care about his female partner, he just cares about his own pleasure… Additional to other awkward things, I broke up… Before him, I was already cautious after this relationship even more …

[@eragon78]

This is one reason to actually care about a high body count in my opinion. Its often indicative of someone who only cares about short term pleasure over long term commitment. Someone willing to wait and abstain shows a strong sense of self control, which I personally find attractive. Of course this only actually works when you apply the standard equally to yourself and others. And also people are free to live their lives however they want. If people want to seek short term pleasure in the form of casual sex, then they are free to do so. But I am also free to not find that trait particularly attractive in a romantic partner. But of course outside of the context of a romantic partner, I dont really care what people do with their lives. Its really none of my business.

[@Chris.R.]

@ the thing was - in this case- he wasn‘t the one who broke up. He wanted a longterm relationship, marriage, kids etc. But all the girlfriends broke up with him…. And who was reponsible? Of course! All the female partners. It never occured to him that his behavior after the love-bombing and being sweet-phase was the deal-breaker.

[@eragon78]

@@Chris.R. I mean he may have not been the one to break up, but its still an indicator of that type of behavior. Someone who is selfish and thinks of themselves first and foremost. i mean not always ofc, but I find it to be more often true than not. he may have wanted to get married and have kids or whatever, but in my experience, guys who think like this, while also exhibiting the behaviors your described, often tend to want to get married and have kids out of some very self serving image as well. Do the whole love bomb to start, tie a women down, and once they're stuck with you, feel entitled to their love and attention without feeling the need to continue to reciprocate it, or without the need to actually put any effort into the relationship at all. This is that old conservative way of thinking, this is why you hear stories about how ever old conservative man where even though they all got married and had kids, they often tend to hate their wives and kids, while also not wanting to ever get divorced and are often extremely toxic and selfish. Now obviously you know your situation best. Ive only heard the tiny bits youve explained here. Its just that from my experience, stuff like that high Body Count almost always tend to indicate that type of selfish narcissistic behavior, and/or an inclination for very rash short term pleasure seeking at the cost of everything else. But of course thats not ALWAYS the case. You have to treat things on a case by case basis. People are still individuals afterall. I just find it often is the case, and so usually its a red flag to me. And that goes in both directions for men and women.

[@Chris.R.]

@ thanks for your response.

[@jennaheiser625]

My body count is much higher than my now fiancé (cishet male), but he didn’t like hearing about it because it distracted both of us from the relationship in front of us. In truth, it was probably a bit of a jealousy thing. But it just led to a MUTUAL rule where we both limit ex talk unless it’s relevant to our current lives. He didn’t forbid me from talking to an ex on Snapchat, or ever EVER tell me I was a slut. The only thing that happened was a rule that he held BOTH of us to.

[@alwaysright3943]

Every man cares about body count, but most can't afford to be picky about it.

[@incisivecommenter5974]

Commenting for the algorithm!! Keep up with the good work🎉🎉🎉❤

[@domeatown]

Most people take it on the chin. Some people say some moody crap and pout. But this kind of person is really kind of unique, I think. I can't imagine going after someone I didn't fancy on some level. But I think they genuinely believe that other people are running around consciously overlooking other people's "imperfections" and that it is also a chore for the rest of us, when actually that is most people's default. I actually _prefer_ a bit of chubbiness. I _prefer_ a bit of scatterbrained-ness. I _don't care_ about money. and so on and so forth. They really do believe that all men and all women basically like only the things we are required to like, and that's more or less it.

[@grummelameise]

its projection. the guy is unsecure to the hilt, and needed to built this psycho-social fassade of himself.

[@stevenhuntley8706]

They are mad women won't leave their good men they've been with for 5 years to chance if the guy they just met is a passable, not even good, man.

[@andreiadetavora8471]

"Fairy smut"😅😂 We adore you

[@RedSonja41]

Thank you, I feel your voice might help.❤

[@electron-Volt]

channel is growing, it's great to see!

[@ruci]

Critical thinking appreciated

[@Asongbook]

I dislike the term body count 1) it's yet another Really Unpleasant term for sex- if sex with you is a mass casualty event Hard Pass 2) usually when i hear it the speaker is 2 seconds from sex shaming. Once again, Hard Pass. I don't wish to be screwed, nailed, or pounded either.

[@sampsonlittle7368]

What a gulf to pass from king to normal person. How many are willing?

[@veelamb9508]

You called me out with the reading Fairy Smut lol

[@erik9420]

I remember when I first heard the words "body count", and I was confused because the conversation had nothing to do with serial killers before that point. It's such a toxic concept - how is it fair that women should be abstinent but men shouldn't?

[@eragon78]

Well, thats the key. Any man using the concept of "body count" is only fair if the men also apply the same concept to themselves. Which some do. The ones who dont, and have a double standard are absolutely in the wrong, and that absolutely isnt fair. And unfortunately far too many men hold that double standard.

[@SirPhysics]

The way they see it (I'm not agreeing with them, I just understand their logic), the difference is in opportunity. Men have to work to lose their virginity and women have to work to maintain theirs. In their mind, it is significantly easier for women to get laid than it is for men (which it probably is, in fairness, if they're willing to lower their standards* most women probably don't have to go home alone at the end of the night if they don't want to because men are desperate and thirsty AF). So for women, what is hard is refusing that temptation and staying celibate. For men, on the other hand, what's hard is convincing a woman to sleep with you. A man having a high "body count" is proof that many women have found him worth sleeping with and is therefore an achievement, while a woman having a high "body count" is proof that she can be easily conned into "giving it up." As this video points out, this relies on the deeply misandrist belief that most men are pickup artists who resort to tricking women into sleeping with them, though I cannot say I'm surprised that men who resort to tricking women into sleeping with them view other men as doing the same. It's the reason creeps will crawl out of the woodwork insisting he's just trying to get laid whenever a man defends women; they literally cannot imagine that a man would simply want to be genuinely nice to women without having ulterior motives. *This part doesn't cross their minds because the kind of men who say shit like this don't actually have any standards themselves for who they will sleep with. Like, they'll fatshame women and they definitely have preferred types but at the end of the day they'll go home with anyone who will have them.

[@thebcwonder4850]

The basis of the idea is that under patriarchy, women are seen as “passive” and men as “active”. I assume you’ve heard the lock analogy

[@erik9420]

@@thebcwonder4850 ... no, I hadn't heard that analogy before actually. I just looked it up and now I want to vomit.

[@audreydee7840]

@@thebcwonder4850 A q-tip that has washed one ear can already be a dirty one, imagine one that has washed many ears ...

[@Obsidianone831]

Maybe I'm getting old ( 52F) but I really hate the term "body count ". Why does sexy times have to be reduced to something violent? Body count is a term used to describe serial killing, it's so jarring. Same with "hit that" or "banging " or " tear that _____ up". Just why???

[@TC-hf8hg]

Because it is violence to them.

[@catwalkster]

Body Count is a great band

[@marpro212]

I’m starting to find the arguments on this channel one sided, although I still enjoy listening to the other perspective. Here is mine: Whilst it is true, that there are a lot of guys that criticise body counts in women because of their own insecurities, there is a very valid question of common values. I have had opportunities to sleep with women that I have turned down, not only because I didn’t see long term potential in them but because it also would have likely left them feeling bitter and resentful about the experience afterwards. Some people don’t think that way, and take whatever opportunity avails itself to them, without thinking of the consequences it has on other people (or even themselves) in the longer term. They _genuinely_ think that it isn’t their problem. The higher someone’s body count, the more likely they fall in that category… which is the part that I _actually_ dislike. I didn't figure this out from red pill redit forums. I figured it out from my own experiences with these sorts and talking to them (mostly guys, but some women too). It is also no coincidence at all that higher rates of promiscuity (body count) are correlated with insecure attachment styles, and on the extreme end of the spectrum narcissism and even psychopathy. I am very wary of these sorts of people, and have squared off against them and their 'entourage' before. Even if you aren’t one of those characters, there is a _high_ chance that you would have crossed paths with several of them in that walk of life, which begs another question: _why would you keep going back for more?_ That in itself is hardly normal or healthy behaviour. I’ve found from personal experiences that people who were more ‘sexually active with multiple other people’ also often had a much more casual relationship with being open and honest about it (women more so than men). Women specifically with these traits will quite deliberately go out of their way to make the opposite impression of who they truly are. I had 2 years of living with one during lockdown to figure that out. When first introducing herself, she not only hid this from me, but deliberately said things to indicate she was against casual sex and promiscuity in general. She lied about all of it. The contradictions first started appearing about 3 months in, and every person I knew that jumped to her defence would try to cover for her or justify those lies (common pattern among their ilk). They're often so anaesthetised that they don't even realise when they're lying as it is so habitual and reflexive. I am sick to death of these sorts of people. It's like digging ants out from under your skin with a knife. I've made rare exceptions. I'm good friends with one guy who is in an open relationship with a woman, but sleeps around with guys. Why did I make an exception? Because I saw early on that everything was being done above-board. No one was lying or hiding anything, so much so that it was patently obvious. I've met some of those other guys myself even, and they seemed like decent folk. We once were all in the same room, and it wasn't even awkward. So I can acknowledge that it is possible, but very rare by my experience. One exception is not enough to disarm my above arguments, and I'm not prepared to as a rule extend the benefit of the doubt to the majority of people that indulge in this lifestyle. I say something similar in my hinge bio. I'm not crass enough to ask a woman her body count, but I do state my values/preferences (quality > quantity), so they can take their time and judge for themselves if they measure up. So, that's the other perspective that I felt was left out here, albeit what I said applies to men and women. If I'm wrong about any part of this, I'd like to know.

[@jonirischx8925]

Agree with everything you said. Am a man. Do I have some insecurities? Sure, that's normal. But I don't make it anybody's problem, and can discuss them in a healthy way if I'm in a relationship. I've never been one for one night stands. For me sex is an expression of love. It's impossible for me to have (fulfilling) sex with a person I don't trust, or care about. And to me a person (of either gender, am bi) who can (and does) just go out of their way to have loads of casual sex, like it's no different from ordering a coffee, is a big no no. Our values and outlook on intimacy, romanticism, sex, and relationships are fundamentally incompatible. I don't need to understand their world-view, and it doesn't mean it makes them automatically a worse person or something. I hope they're happy in their life. But I've had pretty awful experiences with people, who can after months of intimacy be just like "wait, you thought we were a thing? None of this meant anything, it's just sex". And that's just insane to me. Because it's usually always coupled with romantic and sweet rhetoric, that apparently was just lies and manipulation. Like, what on earth are you talking about?! YOU were the one writing me love letters and ish, and now it's all 'sir, this is Wendy's, I don't even know you' lmao. 😂 Dating people who share my outlook is a good way (though not perfect) to filter out people who can easily just 'use' people to have their needs met, and who view relationships as largely transactional. Wanna go out and have a lot of sex, because that's what works for you? Perfect! You do you! But enough with these generalizations like it's some cardinal sin to have standards, and wanting to be with a person who shares your philosophy on romance, both in words and in actions. And it's not like I'm interrogating people on a first date with a flashlight pointed at their face demanding to know their 'bodycount'. It will come up naturally, because I also don't date people who refuse to be open about their history. It signals to me they're ashamed about it, are too insecure, or are trying to hide something. If you were hiring someone, you'd never even consider a person who refuses to give you their CV, and gets all uncomfortable if you ask them what their story is. Why should it be any different with relationships, which are infinitely more meaningful, and telling of your character, than something as simple as employment?

[@ivory7182]

Entitled "nice guys"

[@denisemcdougal6445]

Yup

[@kathybramley5609]

I think you're overselling it slightly in the middle. At least I don't always get nasty flip when guys slide into my DMs and I tell them I'm not available and that Facebook isn't the right place to look, but that is partly in the context of romance fraud farming, which is something else we have to deal with.

[@marinakukso]

Hear hear!

[@zacharybosley1935]

Okay, I was absolutely here at 1am However, I'm going to watch this video a second time to make sure I'm not misrepresenting it before I respond.

[@withexpectancy5818]

Incredible video😊

[@forgetfuljade]

The only issue with hook up culture is the medical check up. Wearing protection in general.

[@adde9506]

Do these guys get half a point for actually taking the "No," as opposed to the creeps that won't go away until your boyfriend says "No" for you?

[@nathalie_desrosiers]

Alleluia.

[@Phylloscopustrochiloides]

Fairy Smut LOLLLLL

[@andromedaspark2241]

It's a thriving genre, truly.

[@CoderCoder-px4bd]

PREACH!!!!!!

[@AGenerationJones]

Definitely. And refreshing. Insecure men are sooo obvious, and they act like little boys, without realizing women see them, often before the mask falls off.

[@noeraldinkabam]

Whatever you do, whatever you believe about yourself, never, ever listen to the voice in your head that says it is okay to hurt someone because you feel hurt. Cut of your hand before you lay it on somebody. Just. Don’t. Assault. People.

[@Gk2003m]

I’m neither misogynist nor misandrist. Nope, I’m fully misanthropic. So body count? No problem! As long as you’ve had a great time, and harmed neither yourself nor anyone else (or any other creatures!) in the process, it’s all good.

[@QWERTY-gp8fd]

u are not misanthropic at all. u have 0 idea what u talking about.

[@Ali.nalovecat]

💚

[@Tupelosandtoads]

Um "Empathy=vulnerability" asking for such a thing can, will, and does quickly escalate DV. Be careful my good man.

[@moniquem1873]

❤❤❤❤

[@lexispeaks5585]

wHAt'S yOuR bOdY CoUnT Nah, what's most important is that the dudes I have s❤x with don't talk like that about women, and they don't care about body count. They're respectful. I do pick carefully. Body-count-bros can't relate.

[@AoM248]

This. Asking me how many people I’ve slept with is an immediate deal breaker.

[@zacharybosley1935]

How then does one bridge that gap? Do we fix the world by shipping all bodycount bros out of reality, or is there another strategy thay can be used there?

[@diogoduarte369]

This isn't even a true dichotomy. You may have had sex with more than 10 people without all of them being all that great, but you have find that out to be the case somehow. People sometimes have sex, just to explore their sexuality, to find their preferences or tune their ability to tell what a good partner is.

[@jackhughes9896]

How do you what their intentions are for making those statements?

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@jackhughes9896 i think there's definitely an opportunity to claim their motivations are rooted in some combination of malice or ignorance.

[@Babygirl-vt2gl]

Because it's literally always the same one.

[@Babygirl-vt2gl]

​​@@zacharybosley1935 Given men's history in the genuine joy of a chance to harm, insult, humiliate or degrade a woman? And the fact that it's literally ALWAYS the same exact one/ reason? Lmfao. Just stop. ... like stop.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@Babygirl-vt2gl literally always? 100% of the time? In all possible circumstances?

[@jackhughes9896]

@zacharybosley1935 That's wants she thinks. It's always a man's fault 100% no matter what the circumstances are.

[@m-a-t-t6869]

If you are struggling with this stuff, the correct thing to do is disconnect from this corner of the internet. Find community through hobbies, volunteering, religion, help groups, whatever. Try and form relationships with those people. The more real people you become close to, the more this nonsense will all melt away. To you, this man is not real. He’s either a validation of your beliefs or validation of others beliefs. Conveniently you can pause him when you want, listen when you agree, even block him if you disagree and find someone who fits your exact worldview to validate you further. He is not a person, but you are. And so are the people in your real life. Social media is a cancer and you can cut it out yourself if you choose to.

[@zacharybosley1935]

This raises even more questions.

[@mtmytalbot]

The shift toward women focusing on the "shiniest" men, generally at the top of dating app feed, where they swipe on one of 14 men or 7% versus 15 years ago when people met in person, such that the number of long term relationships dropping by 45% on that 15 years is the problem. I can get all the strange I want its our society becoming a dumpster fire that's the issue. Again promiscuity isn't the problem it's the concentration of casual sex amongst that 7% of men and women being stuck on their "highest setting" and not being able to have a successful relationship as a result .

[@jacobs483]

How many people do you think use dating apps as a way of looking for a partner? It terms of like what percentage of single men and single women are using them? I would assume if that’s the problem, it would be most men and most women using these apps, wouldn’t it?

[@Sanakudou]

Women state again and again they are okay being single, a man has to actually provide an improvement to their life to be worthy of a relationship, but by framing women as suffering due to their dating preferences you’re obfuscating women’s words that contradict you, intentionally so, as that way you can feign your concerns are about women and society, even tho in actuality you’re speaking up only for your own self interest. The “problem” you keep inferring the existence of is just men like yourself being unable to access a relationship with these women. The basis for what you deem a something a “problem” is whether or not it enables or interferes with your person self interest. The entire premise for your argument is also extremely disingenuous, or at the very least dangerously ignorant. Longterm relationships failing is not a bad thing, not from women’s perspective. Until very recently women did not have the equal civic and human rights and the individual economic opportunities to make it possible for them to leave an abusive marriage or to be able to sustain their own existence without being marriage, the latter contributing to why women “settled” in the past or had to shut up and endure an inescapably miserable marriage. When women can economically sustain their own existence, the only one the concept of “settling” benefits is men, not women. I suggest actually taking the time to learn about the history of women’s rights, it recontextualises everything. Society is not falling apart, patriarchy’s misplaced authority over women’s autonomy is what’s falling apart. Society has always been a historically oppressive institution for women (just look at coverture laws or marriage laws prior to the ratification of martial rape as overt examples of this). Women no longer having their agency and the capacity for self determination infringed upon is not some sign of moral decay, it’s a sign of society healing. Additionally, comments like yours are a slippery slope, as you’re ultimately demonstrating a misplaced belief a woman’s consent is something you can argue with women about whenever you’re not included in their personal list of men they’d consent to have relationships with. Whether you consciously realise it or not, you’re framing men like yourself as a victim of women’s agency. Likewise, that society is being ruined because women have agency and can prioritise their own desires. Women have full authority over who they do and don’t consent to having relationships with. If women only want to have casual relationships with the most attractive men, that’s their right. If she’d rather be alone, that’s her right. You have no right dictating to her what kind of relationship she can have and who she has it with. You do not have that kind of authority over another autonomous human being. You can be disappointed about not being able to find a girlfriend, but no one has a right to a romantic or sexual partner. Lastly, don’t let redpill manosphere talking points distort your perception of reality, most women never have and never will engage in casual sex. This “problem” is a fictional narrative that came about from men’s inclination to only follow women on social media if they’re a thirst trap influencer, aka, an adult entertainer. Any claims about “most” women engaging in hookup culture are an intellectually dishonest framing of dating app statistics, which is not a sample of all women, just those who use dating apps. Hook up culture occurs almost exclusively through these apps; these women aren’t charity sex workers, they’re hooking up based on a man’s physical attractiveness. Conversely, romantic relationships do not form just on physical attraction nor do the majority of romantic partnerships originate through dating apps, that alone prevents dating app data from telling you anything other than behaviour of people on dating apps, not dating in its totality. Additionally, sample size, methodology and whether replication studies have been conducted should be something you personally check for, the reliability of statistics comes from the integrity of the study. Don’t let confirmation bias blind you to the limitations of what a study can and can’t prove.

[@lynvanderwel3124]

Society isn't a "dumpster fire" right now. Almost every decade has terrible and good things happening, and in the grand scale, we are doing a lot better today than ever in most western countries. Secondly, most women don't use dating apps, dating apps can't therefor accurately reflect the entire population of humanity. If you go on dating apps to meet women, then you get a specific population of women who choose to use dating apps. Dating apps are not organic and they don't accurately mimic how people usually fall in love in real.life, which is through pre-existing bonds and networks cultivated by existing in the same space without the option of pre-selecting people based on stats or photos before you even know them. People also behave vastly different on social media apps and the internet in general, than they do in real life. I can't ghost my colleague if they have shown interest in me for example. I have to actually verbally reject them.

[@mtmytalbot]

@lynvanderwel3124 LOL. you are kidding right. You can just send one email to hr, problem solved, no verbal interaction needed at all

[@Chio-p4o]

Historically, relationships and attraction haven't always been fair. There have always been people who found love and those who didn’t. Some narratives suggest that the past was more balanced, but that's a misconception. Today, many express concerns about dating apps, body counts, and marriage rates, arguing that women are too picky now that they have the freedom to choose. This idea overlooks the fact that even in the past, women's choices were always there; a mother who choose her daughter's husband is also a woman. Long-term relationships aren’t actually declining; it's important to distinguish between marriage and other forms of partnerships. Many unmarried couples live together and have children, fulfilling similar roles to married couples, but without the official label. Half of americans are married and 80% of men have been married at some point in their lifes. The idea that women are single due to a lack of “economically attractive” men misses the mark. Women are often in long-term relationships, living together and raising kids, despite economic challenges. The real issue is that economic disparities make marriage less feasible for many, leading to a divide where wealthier individuals tend to marry within their own economic class. So, rich men are not marrying down, they are marrying their classmates and coworkers. Overall, the narrative around “hypergamy” and relationship dynamics needs to consider these broader economic factors, as many people are now choosing partners from similar backgrounds rather than across different classes.

[@DeeBoosie-sv5uq]

cope

[@CordeliaWagner1999]

Cis men? There is only one group of XY Chromosomes humans.

[@TreeHairedGingerAle]

You're relying on third grade biology in that assumption. The science is far more robust than that. Take a look at Forrest Valkai's 'Sex and Sensibility' video for an update.

[@JoeJaJoeJoe]

​@@RainingPouringSnoringintersex people exist, women with a single x chromosome exist, men with two x and a y chromosome exist. It's not that simple

[@CiCodiCadno]

​​@@RainingPouringSnoringIntersex people exist. Chances are you've never had a full body scan to find an underdeveloped ovary or prostate, or ever had your chromosomes checked. You might be intersex and have no idea. And you using "I'm studying human health sciences" as if that gives you any in depth knowledge of chromosomal variation is hilarious. You're like the chiropractor who insists he's a real doctor.

[@JoeJaJoeJoe]

@@RainingPouringSnoring I'm glad you agree that not everyone fits the XX/XY binary. Even if it's only 1% (though it's likely higher), that means there's probably intersex people in any decently sized high school, workplace, or hospital. It's important we don't exclude them or deny their experiences

[@JoeJaJoeJoe]

@@RainingPouringSnoring you don't know that trans people aren't intersex. And if you do, health professionals have a duty to keep it private and provide care anyway. You really shouldn't generalize, especially when you've already acknowledged that sex is more diverse than just XX/XY

[@zacharybosley1935]

Alright. I think, if I'm going to be as careful as possible with my dissent, that the last minute and a half of this video is where I, random inconsequential spectator #66793, feel the most pain. The idea that most guys feel a level of entitlement still needs some nuanced discussion, because a lot of that sense of entitlement is derived from a perceived expenditure of effort. The guys I know who think they deserve a partner have backed up their arguments not with arguments about how women are too picky or discerning, but rather about how that given guy has already put so much time and effort into investing in stats that should've made them worthy of love and affection to begin with. From that lens, being told "Hey, you just invested in the wrong skills, try to work on these instead," sounds like a condemnation, a personal failing to prove oneself a being worthy of partnership. If spending the redpill-prescribed "all of your 20s" getting your career up didn't do it, and doing the JP-Mandated "clean your room and invest in yourself" wasn't enough, and the feminist youtuber prescription of "get some therapy and maybe stop hurting women with your unintentional construction of patriarchy" wasn't enough, then what exactly is left but sitting in an empty white room with the omnipresent reminder that love will only arrive once you've grown numb to being unloved? There's a lot of theory around the idea of "aggrieved entitlement," or the idea that a person in a privileged position may experience a measure of duress when they can't access what they believe to be the benefits of that privilege, and I think there's a lot of value in spaces where those feelings are confronted, but what exactly is there that can replace the sense of powerless that comes from realizing that no amount of playing to archetype can earn you the promised rewards of playing the game of patriarchy? Community is something the system provides under constraint, compassion is contingent on recognizing one's fault under that system, and partnership seems about as probable as a winning lottery ticket, and that makes a very appealing recipe for the disaffected misanthrope cocktail that results in a lot of misplaced violence.

[@amberinthemist7912]

You're saying these men have done the work to deconstruct the patriarchy within themselves?

[@katinkaraab1964]

The Problem seems to be that you think of a sexual relationship as some Kind of Goal that is achievable similar to education or a certain physique. Sexual relationships are never a right but a gift. Given from at least two people to.each other. The most attraktive Thing somebody can be, is somebodyakimg you believe that they could fuck you then and there and you would Love it, but they do not need to. Whether people Like it or not: You AS a human have no rights nor do you deserve Friends or Lovers. They are a privilige that comes with a lot of effort to maintain. It seems really entilted to.think you have a right, to intimacy emotionally or.sexually solely because you exist. Intimacy (of any Kind) is Always something given freely and never under obligation. However Reading comments like yours shows me personally, why I with my.higher than average Body Count, are in a fulfilling relationship while.so many I know with a lower one aren't. I know that every sexual Interaction I Had (No Matter as a single of commited).was/ is a gift not a right. Something to handle with gratitude and carefully. You seem to think of a relationship Like a prize for a Run that you have to participate in anyway. You have to Work and be pleasent human otherwise Humanity will kick you out, acting decent to get Sex, is shitty because again Sex isn't a trophy it is a gift.

[@anthill1510]

You and the men you are talking about see women as a reward that should be given to you for checking certain boxes. How about you try seeing women as actual people you want to build a relationship with? You don`t even need to put all this effort into meeting tons of requirememts if you actually treat women as people you can built a life with TOGETHER, instead of a reward that should be given to you for your effort in the end. I also really don`t understand how some men cannot see the value in building up thier life for the sake of their own enjoyment. Having skills, a social life, a good job, is all things that make your own life better for yourself, regardless if there is a woman in your life or not. If you only do any of these things because you think somebody should hand a woman to you as a reward I really don`t understand you. Don`t you want any of these good things simply to enjoy a more comfortable life? Why are you "sitting in an empty white room"? All the attractive men I know have cosy rooms filled with the things they like or more functional rooms but with big couches, a screen and setup to play video games and maybe some collection of Comi Con stuff. It doesn`t really matter how exactly their rooms look, but they match their personality and interests. They have a life they enjoy outside of having a girlfriend or not and a personality to speak of and to like them for. And your thinly vailed threat of violence in the end in case you are not given the reward you deserve in form of a woman doesn`t make you a catch, just so you know.

[@NoxAeterna-wf4iv]

1. You are defending the actions of these men way too much. I have seen your comments before, you do the same defensive argument over and over. 2. It's really not that hard to differentiate between good advice and bad advice. The feminist advice is really good, if one can put their ego and male entitlement aside. Because I am pretty sure we are talking about men here and not little boys. 3. Why do these men need "rewards" for being decent human beings. You made it sound like they should be rewarded for being a decent person. Patriarchy gives these men power over women not over other men. In Patriarchy, anyday men, who are positioned above these men, would be able to take away all the "rewards" given to them by Patriarchy. 4. "Community is something the system provides under constraints" Partially true. A community is a place, where people with similar Social background or people with share interests live together. Also, the constraints from the system on a community depends a lot on the people that are living there. Ex - the black community faces a lot more constraints and has always faced than their white counterparts. 5. Partnership is not a lottery, that you will win. It depends on a lot of things. Mostly on behavior, personality and shared interest or common goals. I am a Cishet man, who was born and brought up in an ultra conservative country and society. I doubt that, if you have ever seen conservatism of this extent. I didn't expect "rewards", neither do I expect a partner for leaving Patriarchy. It mostly takes compassion and empathy. Putting yourself in some else or a whole group of people's shows. I don't have an irl community to be part of, all i have is people from online, who share common interests as mine. I didn't just leave Patriarchy in one day, it took me years.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@anthill1510 a couple of mistakes have been made here. I'm not threatening violence, I'm explaining how violence may arise from a pattern that has consistently led to violence. Poor regulation of one's own misanthropy isn't something I'm a fan of, personally. Secondly, and i think more critically, "treating like people," is a standard. Its a goal not too different from learning to dribble a basketball, or learning how to explain your leg is broken without crying through the pain. Those are all skills, learned skills.

[@JCPRuckus]

This argument is what happens when you over intellectualize everything. No one means this logical implication, because no normal man has sat down and thought through this logical implication. If I say I don't want someone else to choose 5 people at a party to eat with my spoon before I use it, that doesn't mean that I hate everyone at the party. It's just that I I actually have to know and decide whether I'd use a spoon after any given individual. And I just don't trust someone else's judgement on that, especially when I know they weren't considering who I'd find acceptable when making the choices.

[@JoeJaJoeJoe]

Comparing a romantic partner to "using a spoon" is objectifying and dehumanizing. You'll have much better relationships if you view partners as people instead of possessions

[@CiCodiCadno]

Please listen to yourself. You're comparing women to "your" spoon steadily getting dirtier and less appealing as it's used. Literally incel behaviour.

[@JCPRuckus]

​@@JoeJaJoeJoe - It's an analogy. Not every detail is representative. If you don't understand that, that's a you problem, not a problem with using the analogy. Nothing important about the analogy changes if it's a magic sapient spoon with personhood and it's using it's own autonomy to make the choices. You're just making an excuse to not deal with the actual argument being made.

[@JCPRuckus]

​​@@CiCodiCadno - I didn't say anything about getting "dirty". I said that only I can be a fit judge of who I want to indirectly share intimacy with, which I exemplified with the idea of sharing a spoon after them.

[@JoeJaJoeJoe]

​@@JCPRuckusif 'dirty' isn't the issue, then i don't understand the point of your analogy. I assume you dine out even though restaurant spoons have been in hundreds of mouths before yours.

[@ZackaryReaves]

Let's take three cases: 1) The 10 men were all quality men -> this implies that she has been with 10 men that she was either left by or left 10 quality men. This would imply that either her standards are off or that the she herself is not worth the hassle. 2) All of the 10 men are low quality -> this implies that her standards are low for whatever reason, whether that's self control or bad character judgement. 3) Some mixture of the two above -> essentially the same implications as 1, but she is more likely to have a reference point by which she could recognize quality due to the breadth of quality she has been exposed to. This is, of course, ignoring things like STD risk and the issue of what exactly quality means and what the internet has done to our evaluation of it. So your opening statement doesn't really follow logically or practically. That being said, it is true that internet communities that surround this issue frequently exaggerate the problem. I think there's a tendency in people to think that because we're having a problem that others must also be having the same problem and that belief is easily reinforced by even a small community - let alone one with a pretty sizable presence on the internet. If even 1% of the population of the US alone has an issue, that's still millions of people who will happily reinforce each other's world view. I think it has very little to do with fantasizing about being all women's number 1 choice, but I could be wrong. While I think the issues you're addressing are worth talking about, I don't think projecting feminist ideology onto the issue is particularly appropriate or effective here.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@ZackaryReaves question Does being a quality man guarantee a partner?

[@jinxcrafter]

For your first point, have you considered that two people can be of good "quality" but not turn out to be a good romantic match? A woman's "off" standards or being "worth the hassle" in your words, aren't the only reasons a relationship doesn't work out.

[@ZackaryReaves]

@@zacharybosley1935 It improves the odds, but strange things happen. It's this type of uncertainty that makes it possible for people to both over and underestimate themselves.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@ZackaryReaves but if that's not a guarantee, then why should it be relied upon as justification for earning a woman's affection? Or anyone's affection for that matter?

[@ZackaryReaves]

​@@jinxcrafter I think the issue of off standards comes down to being able to identify the types of people you're actually compatible with. The other thing is, you don't have to sleep with everyone you date, even for an extended period of time. It's fine to take your time to get to know someone.

[@grummelameise]

you completely gloss over that the famous "80 %" are only relevant in online dating platforms. I wonder why you did that. because online, there is actual data you can sift. but everything else is just poking in the dark, hearsay, annectadal evidence.

[@Chio-p4o]

Always bringing the OkCupid chart that doesn't say anything about who is dating who. Don't you get bored of repeating the same material again and again? The whole thing has been debunked over and over.

[@grummelameise]

@@Chio-p4o you got it - if even hard online dating data is skewed and means nothing, where does our guy get his statisticts from? tik tok ladies? so, the whole thing is pulled out of someones behind. nobody knows who is dating who, and in what quantity. its all guesswork and anocetodal evidence. its made up youtube BS.

[@Chio-p4o]

@@grummelameise It's not "hard online data", it's data from like 10 years ago who has not been replicated. There are tons of studies on speed dating and physical attractivenes who ask women and men to rate each other and such distribution doesn't appear. Most men are rated almost with the same attractiveness as women, and it is thought that women are slightly more attractive than men.

[@Chio-p4o]

@@grummelameise He quotes a Pew Research article (the yellow and green graph) and newspaper headlines and tries to play with the redpill notions of 20/80 and make you reason. You can't differentiate hard data with a lame graph who doesn't reflect reality, so I doubt someone can make you make sense of something.

[@grummelameise]

@@Chio-p4o this is not really a point in the expatriarchs favour

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

What is this arbitrary 20%? Where did it come from? What makes a man qualify for this mysterious 20%? Why do men categorise themselves in this way (because I'm fairly sure most women don't)? Why do these men not seem to realise that patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurts them (because they apparently don't care if it hurts women)?

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@JaneAustenAteMyCat because the going argument is that it only hurts the losers. Unfortunately, a lot like the U.S. has a "slightly embarrassed millionaire" problem, patriarchy has a "winner with a slight setback" problem.

[@haruk2312]

Even if it hurts them, they are elevated above women and enjoy that meagre sense of superiority.

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

@@zacharybosley1935 Really? How pathetic 🤦

[@zacharybosley1935]

@JaneAustenAteMyCat it's deeply frustrating, yes. Unfortunately, Patriarchy, like capitalism, is very good at selling itself as the superior alternative to pandemonium.

[@jackhughes9896]

How does it hurt men?