Magic: the Gathering's Ultimate Casually Competitive Deck | Judge's Tower Gameplay #7

[@jokerES2]

10:35 - Cumulative upkeep uses age counters, so really there ought to be a counter tracking it. It's normal for players not to add it, but it's a counter that exists and could be proliferated, so you probably should indicate it.

[@jokerES2]

This also helps with the phasing in and out, since phasing doesn't affect the age counter count.

[@lukasschrage8935]

It took me all these years to notice that all Wheelmaster really ever says is "roshko" and "doshko" xD

[@JANKLORD]

You have been invited to become a Dark Speech tutor in the Netherrealm! Our gremlin population is in need of someone who understands the intricacies of “roshko”, “doshko”, and “boshko”…not to mention the many other “oshkos”. If you would like to join our team, please call 1-800-666-7979 between the hours of 1:00am-1:09am Dungeon Standard Time. That’s when we have staff at the phones. We look forward to boshking with you!

[@Carrtoondragon]

"I have never been more sad to draw 3 cards in my life." 😂

[@nickoli_dudyo]

At 23:40 Dayton should have activated the Craft ability first instead of the tap ability, since in Judge's Tower you have to activate abilities from the bottom of the card up. Also would have been a good opportunity to exile one of the artifacts he controlled to draw fewer cards lol.

[@Cactus_Evergreen]

Joe should've lost on their first turn. Dredge doesn't say as an additional cost, Sacrifice a creature or land. You can cast it without having a creature or land, so he should've been out when he moved to main without casting it. Also it should've been Tim's turn when timesifter was destroyed, Joe took the last non-extra turn

[@laytonjr6601]

So if you have an effect that prevents you from sacrificing creatures and lands you just draw a card?

[@Cactus_Evergreen]

@laytonjr6601 Yes, though there isn't an effect like that yet. Yasharn and Sigarda cover both types of stopping sacrificing, but neither would work for this case

[@gisopolis77]

The turns were done correctly, Joe still got the last extra turn off the Timesifter before it was destroyed

[@VengirSvogthos]

It's actually not a missed play, but it feels like something they missed during play. Time sifter was giving extra turns, not changing whose turn was next, so once time sifter was removed, after the last extra turn it would go back to normal turns. It was just super lucky that the person whose normal next turn was Tim.

[@weirdperson5675]

I was hopeing they phased it out just so we could see this interaction

[@kaaskop01]

I'm fairly sure the cards exiled with the timeshifter are exiled face up. This could be relevant with Squee.

[@flint9759]

I believe they were exiling face down to distinguish exile from graveyard. It's technically incorrect, but if all players agreed on that, it's fine.

[@qwillerr]

well that sure was a game of judges tower XD i was really hoping that we would get to the end of daytons turn so he would have lost to Squee, cause demon knows that i wouldnt have remembered he was in that facedown exile pile after playing all those cards XP

[@signisakanades1329]

Cards exiled Facedown have no text, so Squee can't be cast if exiled facedown. I believe cards leaving the game would be considered exiled facedown in this scenario, as they literally leave the table with the player.

[@electrichumbug]

seriously loving this series so much!! Trying to get some Booster Tutors to start our own Tower!

[@sparticleone8505]

This is the highlight of my week! Thank you guys!

[@JANKLORD]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching 😊

[@gabrielwingue]

Hands revealed so you can catch people breaking the can/must rule

[@s4ad0wpi]

For Maximum Chaos, you should add a Wheel of Fortune (or another card with the same effect) to the tower! Give everyone 7 cards! >:)

[@Strident77]

Juuudge!! Dylan here, Joe should’ve lost around minute 17…could’ve activated Experiment Kraj targeting Bilbo is response to the Mystical Melting trigger 🥲 Anyways I have to go back to sifting through the Demon’s Alara uncommon bulk for more Modern playables #YouOozeYouLooze

[@WhiteVanyo]

Kaldra Compleat is a good card to add since most people don't know that, if Kaldra kills a creature from combat, the creature doesn't get exiled since it dies before the trigger does anything.

[@scottgerk7627]

My favourite inclusions in my tower have been the FoF cards, especially the face up/face down ones. Atris, Fortune's Favour.... such a fun inclusion.

[@sylvandata]

This has been bothering me for all the videos. When resolving a spell/ability, you perform actions in APNAP order. We normally see this in context of the stack which resolves top down, so I understand why they are performing game actions in the wrong order. However, we aren't putting spells/triggers on the stack and then resolving a stack. So, for example, if we are resolving a wheel, the activate players draws their 7 cards first, then the next player, then the next, then the next (ABCD). It has been done the wrong way in the past videos (DCBA). 608.2 e&f

[@sylvandata]

608.2e Some spells and abilities have multiple steps or actions, denoted by separate sentences or clauses, that involve multiple players. In these cases, the choices for the first action are made in APNAP order, and then the first action is processed simultaneously. Then the choices for the second action are made in APNAP order, and then that action is processed simultaneously, and so on. See rule 101.4. 608.2f Some spells and abilities include actions taken on multiple players and/or objects. In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously. If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually. APNAP order is used to make the primary determination of the order of those actions. Secondarily, if the action is to be taken on both a player and an object they control or on multiple objects controlled by the same player, the player who controls the resolving spell or ability chooses the relative order of those actions.

[@thejackscraft3472]

608.2 only specifies that choices are made in apnap order, and that the actions happen simultaneously, so since that would make timesifter an instant game-draw card, they do it in a way that's not technically supported in the rules, but makes the game work in a more fun way and is just as valid as doing it in apnap order.

[@jokerES2]

Need to add some of the Zendikar MDFCs in that can be used at instant and some more effects like Rites of Flourishing.

[@michaelturner2806]

25:30 Craft can only be done as a sorcery, he had something else with a tap ability that needed to be resolved first before he could Craft, I think.

[@mn6334]

Technically I believe he should have activated the Craft ability immediately after the Net resolved instead of the tap ability. I'm pretty sure in Judge's tower you're supposed to activate abilities from bottom up so Craft should have been the first one activated.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@mn6334 yes and no. since craft is sorcery speed he could have chosen to cast another spell, at which point he would have activated the net to tap something in response, then later used the craft ability. that being said, he didn't do that, so if they have the "Bottom up" rule in use he should have lost, but there were ways to use the tap first.

[@Vote4Drizzt]

I believe Dayton lost due to crafting, the Golem was an artifact when the net came down and could be used to craft before casting the next card. Although does activating the ability at sorcery speed have to happen before the next spell ? I am unsure

[@fafdsfr]

You can activate sorcery speed abilities and cast spells in whatever order you choose and it still meets the condition.

[@Its_Eros]

Actions that players take 'at the same time' like timesifter should be taken in turn order, not reverse turn order. So they should be pulling from the top in turn order wbich would change the order of the games turns here. Triggers go on the stack in turn order and resolve in reverse turn order, but actions being taken would be performed in turn order. Take actions in turn order like putting triggers on the stack, not resolving them. CR 101.4 for reference.

[@thejackscraft3472]

Choices are made in turn order, but if there's no choices to be made, such as in the case of timesifter, there's no rule for it when dealing with a shared library.

[@chrisvanderheiden12]

The rule above references both choices and actions

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@chrisvanderheiden12 Rule 101.4 states "Then the actions happen simultaneously." so choices happen in APNAP order, but the action is directly stated as happening not in APNAP order.

[@Its_Eros]

Okay, then they all exile the same card since they all do it at the same time, right? It's the card on top before they all exile the top card. Yes, they do happen at the same time, but they need to happen in some order since they're operating with the same set of cards. Colloquially (and in every other Judge's tower) that's turn order since that's how everything in the game works. Otherwise they might as well not enforce reverse turn order and just grab them and deal them out randomly.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@Its_Eros since there's no rule for it, it's done in whatever order the table decides, thus why no one lost when they did it in not reverse turn order once, meaning that as long as everyone at the table agrees it doesn't matter what order it happens in, so yes, grabbing the top 4 and dealing them out randomly would also be valid, assuming the table agreed to it.

[@VivBrodock]

12:00 2 players commit rule violations if you can you must.

[@t.estable3856]

They actually also messed up what cards phased out. The idea is each player chooses one card to keep, not one to phase out. The ones that WEREN'T chosen phase out indefinitely.

[@flint9759]

The wording in most Judge's Tower groups is specifically, 'If you *may*, you must.' The card that phases out isn't a may ability, it is allowing players to choose any number up to 5. In this scenario, 0 is a valid number to choose, as is 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 (if they have that many permanents).

[@thejackscraft3472]

While they do state "if you can do something you must do something", choosing 0 IS doing something, as is choosing 1, 2, 3... etc. they aren't declining a trigger, they're just choosing a number of permanents from 0-5. Disciple isn't a "may" ability, so no matter how many permanents you choose, you're still using the ability.

[@samdalfthegray4495]

Tim is looking yasified in the best way possible!

[@FogKnight13]

On dayton's first turn after timesifter, around 8:00, they went the wrong way for reverse turn order.

[@taylorblack7674]

With timesifter you need to remember who was going to be next because each of the new turns from it are extra

[@Buchaus]

It would have been Tim's turn, they played it correctly

[@StackedEDH]

KRARK, THE THUMBLESS SPOTTED

[@MonkMaster28]

12:05 dont they both lose since they chose not to phase anything out, and "if you can do something, you must"?

[@thejackscraft3472]

It depends on if you have to choose the maximum number of things for abilities, if you do then no one should have had anything phase out, but if just choosing one thing counts for "Must" then everyone with more than one permanent could have chosen one to stay and phase out the rest. the disciple isn't "each player chooses up to 5 things to phase out" it's "Each player chooses up to 5 things to NOT phase out"

[@AlchemicalLove]

I love this series so much! The fact that the intro is a lie from the start is hilarious. I only mean that you all play with 20 life not infinite and it amuses me that because you are doing a home rule it makes your into a lie from the start lol

[@flint9759]

I think they stopped playing with 20 life, which is why the intro doesn't say that. When they were doing the 20 life rule, they actually edited the intro to make that clear. They probably just found the rule unfun so they stopped using it.

[@JANKLORD]

The 20 life thing feels a bit like commander damage: usually not relevant, but sometimes nice to have a quicker way to close out a game.

[@AlchemicalLove]

@JANKLORD no shade about it at all and I've been using the same rule as you, it just struck me as funny that the first thing said is technically not how you all play it that's all

[@SockisS]

I’d love to visit Lorwyn, just gotta make sure I get home before the great aurora comes around

[@joemorton2300]

everyone lost when the disciple of caelus nin was played, because if it says you can do something you should and the cards that were chosen shouldn't have phased out sine it works like single combat

[@thejackscraft3472]

while they did say the wrong thing, the board state was perfectly in line with what could be done, so no one committed a rules infraction, thus no one lost.

[@joemorton2300]

but if you must you have to and i think two of them didn't choose any@@thejackscraft3472

[@jessedrake3238]

I love this content so so much.

[@itachiuchiha329]

Fun fact. If multiple players are instructed to draw cards at the same time. The AP draws first then goes to the next NAP in turn order.

[@LeviStum]

At 22:46 Dayton would've lost from not playing Squee

[@maurtendo]

I don't think he got to a time he could have. Every time the stack was clear he had something else to play. This would have been valid if he tried switching phases. I was actually waiting for that.

[@iPhailepically]

Yes, he was still in main phase 1, and you can play those cards in any order, so until he attempted to move to combat, he was safe from Squee

[@LeviStum]

Ope! You two are right, for some reason I was assuming it was instant speed because I was just waiting to see if he would cast it.

[@F4xP4s]

Should an age counter have been put upon the wall?

[@xakuyer]

F for Daniel in the glacial chasm

[@Halinn]

Pull from Eternity could be a fun card. The choice of what to pull is interesting, and you just might have to sit on it for a while in which case it can be forgotten to play it ASAP

[@tamlinthomas4328]

Hey adding soul warden and cards that make you remember other people playing cards. another good one is debtors knell because brings a creature in from the graveyard every round. suspend cards would be cool too.

[@kieranwouter2361]

Timmy lost at 12:03? Choosing to phase something out when you don't control five permanents. Or have I read the card wrong?

[@flint9759]

You've read the card wrong. You choose *up to* five permanents to save, meaning you can choose 0.

[@aryst0krat]

Weird question - "if you may you must" - does that apply to Wretched Confluence saying you "may" choose the same mode more than once? 🤔

[@frogstarian]

Joey should've lost a long time ago. He could've cast dredge as soon as he drew it. Sacrificing a creature or land is not an additional cost, simply an effect of the card resolving. The guys need to play with an open hand so people can call that.

[@ttww-x4h]

Would love to see Skitter Eel in here!

[@thomassaint7775]

I think it may dave been mentioned elsewhere, but the card Dredge doesnt need a creature/land as a cost, so it nhourd have been cast. Also, week six but no word on Chains of Mephistopheles I see.

[@Lornext]

That is not how Disciple of Cealus Nin works :D

[@tomneilson9501]

would "if you can you must" apply to choosing permanents to phase out?

[@thejackscraft3472]

since it's "Choose up to 5" then 0 is inherently a choice option, so you're still doing something. that being said, while there were no rules infractions during that resolution, they did misspeak during it. you're choosing permanents to NOT phase out, not permanents TO phase out.

[@quinnslotnick5903]

should he have crafted earlier?

[@thejackscraft3472]

nope, craft is at sorcery speed, so he can cast spells before using it. that being said, if they're using the "bottom up" rule he shouldn't have just activated the tap ability, he would have needed to do that in response to something else if he wanted to do that before the craft activation.

[@101arg101]

Timesifter was done wrong. It doesn’t create 4 triggers, it only creates 1 trigger. The active player would be the first one to exile a card, then proceeds in turn order.

[@101arg101]

Also, dredge doesn’t say “as an additional cost.” It must be cast while solkanar (idk) is on the stack

[@its_chris2323]

There's not really rules set up in mtg for the players sharing a library. They came up with a way that was reasonable to resolve the effect.

[@thejackscraft3472]

There's no rule about the order of non-choice simultaneous actions, so timesifter can be done in any order with a shared library. VERY technically and pedantically, since there's also no rule against exiling the same card with it, as there aren't really rules for a shared library, the strictest way to do it is that timesifter immediately ends the game in a tie, since at the time of it's trigger, all players have the same top card, thus they tie indefinitely.

[@calemr]

Best plane to visit: Post-time skip Kamigawa. Get yourself some sick cyborg upgrades before you go home.

[@mikemacbeath5310]

If you've never been to Shandalar, have you ever really travelled the planes?

[@SuperTheNobody]

around 22:30 dayton almost lost the game twice, not only does squee get removed from the game as it's owner loses the game (which is distinct from dieing and going to exile, the latter matters for squee in particular), infernal scarring also grants a trigger to the creature meaning the trigger would belong to john cards being removed from the game may also be an important distinction for eldrazi processors and wish type effects

[@jackhenderson369]

Can someone fact check me? I think Dayton loses when he plays the net? Should have crafted it with the timesifter in response to him activating the 1st ability?

[@thejackscraft3472]

Craft is sorcery speed.

[@weirdperson5675]

Hazoret's Undying Fury has killed alot of people in Judges Tower

[@nikolamatasin3877]

Would Sudden Substitution loss count? I mean... if you can't cast the spell and you try nothing happens...

[@daniel-lh6uz]

Where is the next judge tower, I need more tower

[@VivBrodock]

you guys got so lucky that timesifter returned play to Joe before being destroyed because I suspect people would have died for forgetting the proper turn order.

[@Zaalbarjedi]

OK, here we go. Dredge sacrifices on resolution, not as an additional cost. So it can (and should) be played even if you control no creatures or lands. Cumulative upkeep reads "puts an age counter on this permanent, then pay the cost for each counter". The first Timesifter trigger resolved during Joe's turn, so when it was destroyed, it was Tim who should've go next, not Joe. Braided Quipu's ability puts it into the library. Bilbo tempts only on entering or leaving the battlefield, so Tom should've been tempted twice, not three times. Also, things like simultaneous draw or simultaneous topdeck manipulation (reveal, exile etc.) should happen in turn order, not in reverse turn order. These are not triggers.

[@laytonjr6601]

Timesifter made Joe take en extra turn before it was destroyed. Then, there is no more extra turns and it's Tim's turn (which is after Joe in turn order so they may or mau not have noticed)

[@Melissanoma]

Simultaneous draws from a shared deck aren't in the rules, so they can do it in whatever order they like. As long as they do it the same every time. edit: I stand corrected.

[@Zaalbarjedi]

@@Melissanomaoh really? 121.2c If more than one player is instructed to draw cards, the active player performs all of their draws first, then each other player in turn order does the same.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@Zaalbarjedi They're not "Drawing" they're "Exiling from the top of their library" which doesn't have a rule about timing of multiple instances, and has no choices taken during, so no, there is no rule for it and they can do it in whatever order they want.

[@Zaalbarjedi]

@@thejackscraft3472 I was answering the comment which stated that there is nor rule regarding simultaneous draw, because it is completely wrong. And yes, there is no specific rule for simultaneous exile from the top of the shared library. However, there is following rule: 101.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player’s left) makes any choices required, followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the “Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order” rule. They are performing the action (exiling the top of the library) at the same time. Thus, it should follow APNAP rule. And yes, you can start picking on words "there are no choices, and the actions should happen simultaneously, and they cannot TECHNICALLY do it simultaneously in this case and yada yada yada", but we can just refer to a common sense, which says that APNAP rule was invented to handle cases when something should be done by multiple players at the same time, and it can be applied here as well. It would make things much more easy and consistent. They are even doing their exiling in reverse turn order incorrectly at 7:54, which just shows that this way is much more confusing. Update: found another rule that proves my statement. 608.2f Some spells and abilities include actions taken on multiple players and/or objects. In most cases, each such action is processed simultaneously. If the action can’t be processed simultaneously, it’s instead processed considering each affected player or object individually. APNAP order is used to make the primary determination of the order of those actions. Exiling should be simultaneous, but it cannot be that in this case => perform in APNAP order.

[@danieldumee1982]

Craft only at sorcery speed, he lost when he did it in response

[@hoffedemann5370]

Phyrexian etchings triggers even if there are 0 counters on it

[@halfpintrr]

Kaladesh isn’t cyberpunk, it’s solarpunk :) it might be a bit basic to say Ravnica but Ravinca. I want to see the Hall of the Guildpact, and hopefully not die to a Dimir blade. The food must be incredible as well, when we get mentions of it in MKM and the Saheeli and Huatli story, it sounds delicious.

[@supernovaitup]

I'd want to go to New Capenna. It seems like a relatively civilized plane, and all of the animal people there are adorable. Kaladesh would have been my pick, but there always seems to be political strife there which would make a vacation difficult.

[@teganjones7669]

Swear at 25mins in Craft is played at instant speed and would have ended the game.

[@flint9759]

The way it's worded, I definitely agree it sounds like Dayton is crafting at instant speed, but I believe he was actually crafting immediately after the artifact he cast resolved. Otherwise, he shouldn't have counted it for the draw a card effect. Also, if he believed it was instant speed, he would have activated it earlier.

[@mufasafalldown8401]

Nobody comin with me to Theros huh okay alright that's fine

[@connorsanger6570]

I feel like the eliminated players shouldn't say when a player loses, only let the players still in the game. Just my opinion though

[@songs2424]

Play pillar of alara

[@dominothief]

Disciple of Caelus Nin should have caused a number of game losses. Potentially the entire table depending on how strictly you interpret rules violations. The up to five cards that you choose are the ones that *do not* get phased out by the Disciple. 11:52 choosing the wall should have caused it to remain in the game. If you may, you must, therefore, you die. 12:01 technically correct. Not phasing any permanents out is what needs to happen in this scenario. The reasoning is wrong, though. John shouldnt get to "choose" if something phases out. if you may, you must. But he took the correct game action by not phasing out any permanents. The only choice involved here would be if you control more than five permanents, and thus need to choose which five specifically remain behind after the Disciple's trigger resolves. 12:05 see the above. Also safe, but for the wrong reasons. 12:07 you wont be a hero and you wont win the game either. Choosing Phyrexian etchings should cause it to remain in play, and you must do so. At bare minimum Tim and Joe should be out. I would rule the other two out because its funny for everyone to go out simultaneously, but they did take the correct game actions, so I think realistically they survive.

[@thejackscraft3472]

Having the wrong words but correct actions is fine, note how they're fine with the first timesifter trigger despite him not actually announcing it. so depending on if choosing one counts for the "Must" then either Tim and Joe, or only Joe would be in violation of it, as Tim could choose the disciple itself as his one target, then let the wall phase out.

[@Eon_TAS]

arguably since youre drawing from the same library, the order would be APNAP if you are ever instructed to do so at the same time, e.g. turn order, instead of the reverse order you are doing it in whenever you interact with the library. This is cos everything goes in APNAP, the reverse is usually then caused by the stack resolving backwards. The rules for drawing a card do actually specify that if multiple people are instructed to draw cards, the active player draws all theirs first, then next in turn order draws etc. ``` 121.2c If more than one player is instructed to draw cards, the active player performs all of their draws first, then each other player in turn order does the same. ``` This obviously doesnt really matter unless scrying has happened, but in a game of being strict to the rules I feel this should be pointed out I'm not aware of an equivalent rule to go for the Timesifter's exiling from the top, beyond the generalised APNAP rule (101.4), but thats pretty fitting to this situation, so every time you do stuff with the library that is "simultaneous", it should be in forwards turn order, not reverse. You all lose every session for this reason, Q.E.D.

[@thejackscraft3472]

There is no rule for timesifter, and very technically there's no rule that states it can't exile the same card for multiple players, so in the strictest reading of the rules it's an immediate game draw on the next upkeep, as all players exile the same card every time. 101.4 is very specific that only the choices happen in apnap order, and the actions themselves are simultaneous.

[@PhoenixRising200]

they should havent chosen targets

[@Daknight83]

What happen to the regular games I enjoyed that so much more then this

[@JANKLORD]

Your patience shall be rewarded.

[@alexroel123]

Once again, you fail to play judge tower correctly. You all start with 3 cards in hand, and hands are always revealed. You do NOT have infinite life, you have 20 life and it resets to 20 every end step.

[@its_chris2323]

There's multiple ways to play. The initial version I heard was 'you start with cards equal to your judge level' and seeing as they're playing for fun, having hands not revealed is fine. There's no stakes that would cause anyone to not follow the rules just to try and win.

[@thejackscraft3472]

If you're going to claim they're playing it incorrectly please show me the official wizards documents for the rules of judges tower.