Question Of The Day - What Brand Bike?

[@ChinaCycling]

Do you hear that? That's the sound of 20 bike brand managers emailing the factories in China asking them to change to a custom serial number sticker for their production runs. Thanks for the video.

[@MrBJPitt]

How would we use this information though? 😄 It's not like we know which sticker to look for, and how many will ask for the forks to be pulled out of a bike before buying?

[@seitenryu6844]

@@MrBJPitt Also, knowing where it's made tells you nothing of the laminate schedule or quality. Unless you have confirmation that their QA and construction is good, you might as well close your eyes and cross your fingers. All that being said, results are what really matter. If it rides well and has a warranty that's well backed, do it.

[@sylvainmichaud2262]

I imagine that there is variability in the same manufacture (supplier) depending on : 1) the type of contract negotiated, 2) the circumstances e.g. manufacturing errors or delays in production -> supplier wants to cut his losses, so momentarily quality goes does down, 3) the permanent presence or not of a bike brand QA technician on site, and so on ... At some point, as a consumer you take a decision based on the information you've gathered (the more, the better) and hope for the best. There is no such thing as perfect information with no or little risks.

[@jcsrst]

You just confirmed what I already suspected. Bicycles are a lot of marketing hype.

[@discbrakefan]

Yes and no. Ride a top end frame vs a cheap one and you should be able to feel the difference.

[@kitten-inside]

It goes even deeper than "which factory". Different brands may have different quality requirements, and separate QA procedures for accepting parts from the same factory.

[@lightofheaven134]

Best bike would be Giant. High quality carbon. Justified price pound for pound against other overpriced brands with the same carbon materials used. No middleman company. Good product warranty and is one of the biggest and legendary brand in cycling world. Ridden by legendary champions too and innovated the road bike design which we have right now. The TCR!

[@arifazhari7598]

Perhaps the best option would be the brand that actually own the factory or make them in house. For example - giant - polygon - look - moots - any custom frame builder. Even these brand made the in house. They might still use other contract manufacturer fork their fork

[@WashichawbachaW]

@@arifazhari7598 don't forget Time

[@davidngqkalone88]

To complicate things further, bike brands don't stick to just 'one' manufacturer. They may have a few ' preferred' manufacturers but other things to consider are capacity and lead time. If your preferred guy is held up making 10,000 bikes for Cannondale or whoever then maybe you go to Number 2 on your list. If Number 2 guy only has capacity for half your order maybe you split it between the number 2 and 3 guys. These type of production orders are typically confirmed months in advance so it's not something that is changed so easily. Then maybe if number 2 did a good job you might go to him for your next years run etc. A factory is a factory to guys in the bike business, they're more or less the same. For example, If you know anyone with a Bianchi Oltre XR4 you can check rather easily that some are made in Taiwan, and some in Vietnam. Same goes with some of the Specialized models.

[@happydays8171]

I was reading an English bicycle magazine, they were touring the Giant facility and there were all these red with white letters Trek Madone frames hanging to dry behind them. Thought, "This is where the Madone is made this year."

[@p.g.reitsma7245]

This is part of the reason I bought my 2006 TIME VXRs Ulteam years ago. Not only does it feel wonderful to ride, but it's handmade made in France. The carbon lugged craftsmanship is excellent and it's a beautiful thing. Many thanks to Roland Cattin and his company.

[@moserroman2083]

not anymore now

[@johnbanks2225]

@@moserroman2083 Made in Slovakia?

[@Albdentist]

Only one company for me : Time They truly make their own

[@ronngren655]

Great video and very interesting. Understood that most bike carbon is Toray and mixed for the desired application, so that aside do you think as a rule of thumb the brands that do everything in-house like Giant, Merida, or Look manage to keep better quality control by not outsourcing manufacturing?

[@enki42ea]

I think from an end users perspective the more useful question is which brand stands behind their product the most. As in a frame comes in with a crack, bad tolerances, or some other fault how easy is it to get the brand to replace the frame?

[@enki42ea]

Also related to that is how brands vary in how fixable they are. For example I noticed the braze on for the front derailer on the sl7 can be unscrewed. To me that makes it seem like if your front derailer gets hot and bends how it attaches to the frame it would be simple to fix while a riveted on part would be hard to fix

[@kevinfrost1579]

@Eli Allen so true 👏 ........In a market where product origin is sub-contracted behind the commercial curtain of the brands the Q is : What is the value added by the brand owners for buyers and who can we trust ? Value is added by actions and financial commitment to looking after your customers. Make it decently / honour your word.

[@markblanch2905]

Not much use if the bike has broken and thrown you under a car

[@markblanch2905]

The question is: with the indisputably dodgy ethics these companies is the bike safe to ride? Also handy, is it actually reliable/functional?

[@MrWesman43]

Do you have any thoughts on Look and Time bikes. Hambini rates them highly.

[@richardmiller3808]

I would love to see a list of the manufactures by Brands they build for. I would be a real eye opener for sure to most consumers out there. The thing is with "brands" they have a set specification in which they build. They have No real control of the the Process in which they are built. This leads to many problems for the consumer in the long run.

[@baker2niner]

Way too passive an answer. Any of the asian contract vendors can do good work. The question is whether Pinarello, Canondale or Specialized know what they are doing and can hold them to a production standard. Acceptance testing is a very mature production QA process. And, some of the bike companies (ie Look) seem to over-engineer the frame a bit to make up for production (execution) lapses. That's the difference between production by a professional engineering team and a marketing team that lets the sub-contractor engineer their components.

[@happydays8171]

I agree with you. I have a Scott, it's mfg at the same plant that makes Cannondale, but Scott requires much closer tolerances than Cannondale in areas like botton bottom brackets.

[@TheraPi]

So, the only really satisfying way of doing it, as soon as you buy the CF bike or frame, go and have it scanned. Any issues found, warranty replacement. Maybe then a pattern would emerge, showing which manufacturers have the most issues, forcing them to do better QC. Or maybe the manufacturers skip the QA alltogether, since the buyers will do it anyway ;)

[@picshooter]

I would like to see what the bike companies response would be to a customer that wanted a new frame replaced because a scan revealed "flaws"

[@TheraPi]

@@picshooter yes, probably they would try to discredit the scan results

[@alicangul2603]

@@TheraPi Well the law is there and if the frame passes ISO test then voids and other defects are not really legally binding.

[@sebastianm2381]

I'm not sure why consumers in the bike market find it so unusual that the brands they buy products from have those products produced from a whole number of suppliers all over the world (mostly Asia when it comes to bikes). It's been that way at least since the 90s - already with low spec steel frames. It's been that way with cars and other products as well for decades and that is, you could argue, widely accepted. Most cars for instance will be assembled from parts coming from all over the place. You're buying into a brand's engineering department, warranty, quality control and the assurance that they'll back up their claims - whatever that is worth to you. Now I will say I do have a problem with bikes having stickers saying "Made in ..." on their frame, when that in fact is not true. There are a few examples for that.

[@HolmsOnBikes]

Trek puts "assembled in the USA", they used to put "designed in the USA". Only treks that have "made in the USA" are a very, very select few of their super high end bikes. (And my old 2001 trek 5200 says "made in the USA" because back then they still produced ALL of their carbon frames in house)

[@MrLuigi-oi7gm]

The takeaway I get from this is that carbon frames are quite expensive and there is little guarantee that you'll receive a quality frame for that money. So maybe for a lot of riders (for whom the little extra frame weight is not important) the better question is, should we buy an aluminum (or steel) frame for quite a bit less, with better tolerances and quality because the manufacturing of these frames, at a high level, is easier to achieve? And if so, what aluminum (or steel) frame bikes would you recommend? I'm beginning to believe than the rush to carbon, again for most riders, is fueled by a lot of marketing hype with not enough value pay back.

[@discbrakefan]

The "rush to carbon" started nearly two decades ago didn't it? The main issue with carbon isn't the material itself, but with the manufacture, since they are hand-made. Poor quality control can result in voids and defects in the frame. This has vastly improved over time and many many cyclists ride and enjoy carbon bike frames without any issues. Carbon doesn't fatigue (unlike metal) which means if there aren't defects and there isn't external damage, the frame should last a very long time. You can't help poor design like Cervelo's issues, but most other brands are making great bikes. Ride a carbon frame just after getting off an alloy bike and you'll see the value.

[@horrovac]

I used not to trust carbon frames and say that metal is a safer option. Then I got a carbon road bike frame (I couldn't find a metal one that I liked). It's still going strong despite 2 major crashes. In the meanwhile, the chainstay of my almost new aluminium fully MTB snapped in half. They welded the mounting plate for the brake caliper in such a way that the combined stiffness of it and the weld bead created a stress riser, which caused the aluminium to fatigue and snap. I made a complaint and they sent me a replacement part, which had the weld bead extended beyond the plate in order to feather out the load and remove the stress point. Obviously, they changed the production because those things were failing en masse (I found a couple of reports on the internet with the exact same failure). So no, you're not making a safe bet by eschewing carbon. You can mis-engineer a metal frame as well. Plus, metal fatigues, which is exactly why my chainstay failed. If it were carbon, it would have forgiven the engineering blunder and not failed from fatigue (instead, it would have failed if and when overloaded). You can't make this kind of blanket statements. I picked a carbon frame that is rather heavy for a carbon frame and made from lower modulus fibre, reasoning that it is overbuilt and rather forgiving of manufacturing errors. So far (almost 10 years) it seems to be working out.

[@modemarcoj8026]

Wondering if you feel that Time is one of the top 3 if not the absolute top of the chain as to the caliber and methods of their manufacturing processes and quality of carbon bike frames produced?

[@champ2237]

so which factory is the better one?

[@maxgrass8134]

Its not just the factory. Within a factory different quality can be applied.

[@runningwithshemp]

Welcome back Raoul! My take away from all your videos, tutorials, and basic material sciences is frames really split into boutique lugged/mandrel made (e.g. high end Time's, Looks, Calfee's, Crumptons, Bill Holland's* even the Colnago's C-60/64's) vs stuff that more mass produced bladder molded. Most of boutique stuff is beyond my means I'd look to Giant. The impression I get is Giant/LIV been the friendliest to your assessments, they promote a very comprehensive warranty (including 2 years on crashing) and they're one of largest producers of frames. Plus against all better judgment I actually really like the look of integrated seat mast on the TCR SL. I wonder after all this if I'm still misguided and whole thing is lottery without stuff being individually scanned. *Holland's HC Carbon in terms of exterior fit and finish at NABHS was nicest bike I've ever looked at up close

[@sebastianm2381]

If you want to buy from an actual producer of carbon frames, Giant and Merida would be an obvious choice. Not sure if I'd consider Look and Colnago boutique just bc Look decided to outsource to Tunisia instead of Asia and just bc Colnago happen glue their Asian carbon tubesets together in Italy. The price tags are boutique though l, that's for sure.

[@runningwithshemp]

@@sebastianm2381 Thanks, I didn't know that about Merida going to take a closer at what they make, I've never even looked at their webpage. With Look I guess I still guilty associating them ONCE and Laurent Jalabert or in era when a 5500/5200 Trek could survive a harder crash. I've always been quite scornful of Colnago until couple years ago I saw a C60 (I think, pre uni-directional carbon) and the finish twill weave was perfect. I had concede as at visible fit and finish was at least superior to say an S-Work where I've seen visible marbling of uni-fibers. For prices of these I'd be more inclined to get custom alloy frame and get Rakus to scan an aftermarket fork

[@LordAus123]

So my takeaway from this is to get a good warranty rather than expect perfection from any particular brand.

[@HolmsOnBikes]

Trek all day. Hands down best warranty in the industry.

[@michaeldawes5703]

I'd flip this question around the other way. Assuming we hold the brands accountable for leaning on the factories for QC, irrespective of which factory they use, over the years are there brands that you consistently see with more problems than others?

[@trroland1248]

Are you telling me that Enve forks are not really made by Enve? They are made by a popular supplier that produces lookalike forks under different paint schemes for other companies?

[@ianiscaratti4924]

TR Roland enve just does rheyr rim in the us. other parts are made in asia. maby they are made by others but they will only give the best ones to wnve te rest to oem bikes and the defaulted ones on aliexpress

[@happydays8171]

Enve was bought by Mavic, then Mavic got bought out, to my knowledge Enve has remained the same. Although Mavic is in limbo, gone into receivership, at this writing.

[@andypaul999]

So i guess the only way of getting some kind of consistentcy would be to buy Giant or Merida?

[@horrovac]

Raoul, I'm aware that manufacturing is mostly outsourced to centralised production facilities, but surely one can notice a trend and recommend a brand that makes the least faulty frames, or at least one that makes no horrific design or quality control blunders? Come on, throw us a bone. Nobody is going to hold you to account if they buy a bike based on your recommendation and it turns out to be built badly. We have nothing whatsoever to go on except for the manufacturer's marketing wank. That means we could just as well toss a coin. If you say that you have a feeling that buying, say, a Giant, is the best guess at getting a good quality, I'd trust you and buy one. And as I said, I would not hold you responsible for deceiving me, you just have no way of guaranteeing it.

[@paulschmidtke425]

Good comment , I agree, personally as a production worker doing the same thing over and over again ,,,you get good at it,, so personally I think it's hard to go past the big boys

[@happydays8171]

Watch what he rides in his vids, surely he trusts that brand.

[@horrovac]

@@happydays8171 wrong. He has a carbon bike repair shop, sophisticated inspection equipment and he knows how to use it. He doesn't need to trust the brand like us mere mortals, he can check it. If he wanted, he'd be able to ride components from the worst brands, just keep returning them until he gets a good one.

[@edt6488]

@@horrovac He rides his own custom built bikes, which I think is what Happy Days meant. In short, you pay the premium for the service you get from a brand. If you are not happy you can get a refund.

[@horrovac]

@@edt6488 Honestly, I have no idea what you are trying to say. It seems to me that you're interpreting waaaay more than necessary into what Happy Days is saying. And that is: look what he uses himself, that's a trustworthy brand. I think that this reasoning is flawed, for above mentioned reasons.

[@brianbob7514]

Some brands manufacture their own frames. Time, look, some Parlee’s, crumpton, Calfee, argonaut, how do you feel about those?

[@borano2031]

It does feel better to have that producer-customer contact, doesn´t it? I would also believe that the smaller brands are also more sensitive to bad feedback on their products. A few poor frames/forks, and they´re down.. Rgr

[@mikicastan]

....able allied...

[@lsent3338]

so.. which factory do you recommend

[@justsayin3600]

So which factory seems to have the best quality products?

[@rkan2]

I don't think there is a public list :D

[@lolmygoodness]

Hi Raoul, thanks for the video. I really enjoy these and find you to be very prudent and independent. I get your point regarding whether or not the brand is responsible enough for the quality control of the products and they'll back up what they say they will - that is very true. As one of the remaining truly independent voices in our strange/niche little world, do you have any recommendations for brands that have truly do what you say they should do, i.e. back themselves and their product/have the responsibility? Cheers, Michael

[@hockeyiscanada]

Well, GIANT is in my opinikn the best brand and company because they are the only one that designs and makes their bikes 100% themselves from the beginning to end !! From designjng the bikes on a computer, to making the raw carbon and making the carbon into carbon sheets then cutting it up and making the bikes as well as the painting, and don't forget they also make all the metal on their bikes as well. They also have a good warranty plan. In many countries you buy direct from the Giant website. So, I'd say Giant's the best for all these reasons.

[@happydays8171]

Yup, buying from Giant, you're cutting out the middlemen. Brands like Basso still make their frames themselves, as with Allied in the US.

[@hockeyiscanada]

@@happydays8171 yeah, but Giant makes everything themselves, the whole bike except the groupset !! Yeah baby lol

[@shunzhang838]

I admit Giant is a amazing brand, but they r not the only one for that "100%" factor, theres Merida and theres smaller uci approved Chinese brands like Yoeleo and Windspace. It's sad that even the most iconic brands like Colnago, Bianchi and Look manufactures their bikes in Taiwan nowadays, to lower labor+shipping+tariffs cost or else they can't survive the global market

[@hockeyiscanada]

@@shunzhang838 I know, I wasn't saying Giant's the only one on Earth, I know about those other well known brands and small ones, but Yoleo doesn't make everthing themselves, they don't make the carbon or the aluminum, the spokes and hubs on the wheels either. Windspace doesn't make the carbon or aluminum either and they they design there windspace products, if you watch the chinese cycling youtube videos on them, yoh see how they have a canadian that designs the bike on computer and another person in another country that does something else for them to. So, those 2 brands are far from 100% but I don like those 2 brands as well. Factor doesn't make the carbon or the aluminum and they actually have their factory in china, and all the workers are chinese, buf atleast the factory only makes Factor bikes !! Merida doesn't make the carbon or aluminum either. Look bikes is like Factor bikes, Look has their own factoey in Tunisia with tunisian workers who only make Look bikes, but the factory doesn't make the carbon or aluminum. It seems Giant is the only 100% brand. There's a couple of USA brands like Allied bikes and Lemond that are trying to do like Giant, by making the carbon themselves and designing and making the whole bike except for the aluminum.

[@hockeyiscanada]

@@shunzhang838 Yeah, I don agree that it's sad how other brands don't want to make bikes themselves. Did I say china for Look ? It's in china or taiwan, almost the same lol I forgot ! You would think Bianchi could make their own bikes being that it's supposed to be the oldest bike brand.

[@graydonbardwell4637]

I appreciate that the plant impacts the quality but can you honestly say that there isn’t a brand that tends to have more consistent quality? Do higher quality brands use different processes, materials and contractors? As an example I’ve never seen you cut open a Trek and be disappointed with the construction...

[@17cream]

Which label produces the best quality? 😂

[@DavidJones-sc6jc]

Time of France.

[@jackriley1989]

Love the videos, is the Chinarello video coming any time soon?

[@marcelomalta3640]

The OEM frames are made the same way. Do you think that they are reliable? Thanks

[@marty197666]

I just bought the frame I liked the look of and was at a decent price, so Canyon Aeroad sl it was. I figured that they were probably all made in the same factories. So far it seems a great buy

[@sjcKsyrium]

Difference in Quality control & tolerances. Hambini has done some reaming.

[@danielmoorhouse6506]

Hambini does have a poor canyon example but all manufacturers put out poor examples. He only gets sent the bad ones but his sample size is still minuscule compared to the many many thousands of good ones out there. He has a cult following of people who think it's funny when he tells people to top themselves. Shame because her does put pressure on manufacturers to tighten up QC. And yep I have 3 canyons and not a problem with any over 27k miles.

[@roveism]

Moar videos pleaseeee, they’re sooooo goooood

[@glennoc8585]

Great Raoul very informative.

[@essex__rider]

This is a great insight! 👌

[@paddyotoole2058]

Hi, do you have any thoughts on Parlee frames? Here in the UK they have a reputation and perception of being at the higher end of quality for carbon fibre, although in recent years I have noted that some of their models are now manufactured in China also.

[@randallsmith7885]

As you noted, the brand is responsible for the material choices, the design and the production method employed by the factory. I would be surprised if all that is not written into the production agreement. But more to the point, what does the brand do to assure that their quality standards and production methods are actually followed? Does the brand have 'boots on the ground' in the factory? Does the brand to scans on the frames and forks that come out of the factory? Does the brand do 'cut up' and other destructive analysis on a statistically significant sampling of the production from the factory? What I see in the cycling world is a huge disconnect between brands and consumers where brands are free to disseminate bullsh@t about the advantages and capabilities of their products to a very receptive audience of riders who are hungry for an advantage. Much of this is the 'race to the bottom' on weight reduction while adding aerodynamic properties (which often requires adding material), and selling this by paying a pro team to ride their bikes, wheels or group sets. And it has been going on forever. Oval chainrings, "L" shaped crank arms, etc. While many innovations have been good, and riding a shiny (or matte) new expensive carbon bicycle can be fun, fast and satisfying, we are also taking huge risks of catastrophic failure by doing so when our own personal capabilities are not close to being up to the task.

[@happydays8171]

A lot of higher end bikes, the brand supplies the pre-pregnated carbon to the factory so they can control the quality and the age of the materials, which is extremely important. Advanced Composite Materials Association has set standards used throughout the industry. Low mod carbon can be 48.5 million psi, where ultra high mod is 72 million. I'm sure each brand has testing procedures of their own.

[@TheraPi]

All Giant forks definitely come from Giant, I suppose.

[@jannapravnik1017]

Yes, but there is another catch - as far as I know, Giant operates 2 factories in Taiwan (high-end models) and some more in mainland China (cheaper stuff). And even tolerances or level of quality control may differ regarding the hierarchy of the final product in the portfolio and, probably most importantly, price.

[@pd1jdw630]

Why does this made me think all the carbon bikes are like iPhones. Designed in California made in China. 🤔 just made me think. Can you put an endoscope in different brand frames and show the inside? Maybe they’re just as bad as the cut up frame you showed.

[@shannondeckard8587]

This is of no surprise to me. I have know this for 13 years.

[@maddoc68]

The question is still unanswered...

[@HolmsOnBikes]

I think a good video would be where to and where NOT to clamp onto a carbon frame in a work stand (I know trek says to only use a fork mounted work stand for the madones. And they even put a huge warning label on the seatposts now in the box saying not to clamp and to use fork mounted stand.) Also, a video about where to/not to apply carbon paste on a bike. I see a lot of people that just throw that stuff on everywhere. I know steerer tubes are a bad idea, along with some other places.

[@thetheflyinghawaiian]

How do aluminum bikes stack up to carbon in terms of joint strength, fatigue, etc? From an actual engineers perspective.

[@johnsmith1474]

One factor is that aluminum suffers long term stress fatigue weakening, carbon does not.

[@bradcomis1066]

Typically bikes undergo usage based stress testing (at least that is the case for most reputable manufacturers). Or they will at undergo ISO testing which will encompass fatigue testing (hundreds of thousands of small load cycles) as well as impact testing (eg weight falling on a frame+fork). This means that carbon and aluminum bikes will withstand similar loads before failure. The difference being that the carbon bike will be much lighter for the same strength. Aluminum is not a cure-all for bike frame failure. There are plenty of ways for an aluminum bike to break. The failure mode of metal is a bit better at maybe not causing as serious an accident though.

[@bradcomis1066]

ISO 4210 is the international set of standards for bike testing. All the factories that built the frames in video has extensive testing labs that can run all the ISO test and much more.

[@seitenryu6844]

The construction of the specific bike is more important than material. There are good and bad bikes made from all materials. Good aluminum is cheaper than good carbon. Cheap from either will ride poorly and can fail.

[@havinganap]

Alu can fail catastrophically, in the same way as carbon. Good process control in the frame factory is really the key factor in building a carbon frame. Alu is less process dependent, at the point of frame building. That's the conclusion I came to after worrying about this question.

[@waynosfotos]

Yeah it is a bit of a lottery, even same bike, same brand, same model. Could be quite different as it comes down to consistency or variance in quality control.

[@hotcakes1117]

Pretty sure the fork on my Trek Emonda has the same barcode sticker as that Pinarello F8 ... learn something new everyday

[@planetmongocommoditiesexch9079]

Megabrands Giant and Merida make their own frames, does this translate to better quality?

[@ighfirlee]

So does Factor bikes 😁

[@meDianize]

A better quality to price ratio at least.

[@trizvanov]

@@ighfirlee Are you certain about that ? I am yet to find any information outside of the marketing videos, on how their frames are actually made.

[@ighfirlee]

@@trizvanov my team mate went to Factor's Taiwan Factory.

[@ighfirlee]

@@trizvanov This vid not good enough for you cos its marketed? 🤔 kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5q9oniIf9alY8k

[@steveflor9942]

Raoul, thanks for this excellent video. Would it be fair to ask who manufactured the pre-preg carbon fiber cloth? And, in your opinion, which manufacturer of carbon cloth produces the best quality, most consistent material? Best regards, Stevesocal40

[@maqusss]

Could you make video about carbon dh bike frames?

[@joonsiu_]

so.... what exactly are u trying to say? I'm trying to follow up sentence but they keep running off..... I'm very interested in your knowledge and expertise.

[@Nico-lw5ol]

the answer is that you cant really be sure that the bike you pick will be the best one bc you dont know what manufacturer produces them and also what materials and exat procedures they use. in other words: dont bother trying to fin the best bike brand for carbon bikes

[@mikicastan]

Specialized bikes,especialy those fact 11/12...your thoughts?

[@TheGstuck]

Just as Raoul said, the same brand and model can be Excellent quality or Poor quality. We regularly see identical bikes that under the Paint, are vastly different quality.

[@ianiscaratti4924]

Gavin Stuckey why does he cut up frames then?

[@minervali631]

Giant uses its in-house factories. Can't go wrong with that I hope. I would get for another giant/Liv if I were to upgrade my bike 🤔

[@glennoc8585]

Lifetime warranties are not to be taken as a given that's for sure. Forks are often outsourced to companies that focus on making forks. I'm not sure if giant are making in house forks but i would think so.

[@PhillioDoede]

There is a lot of over simplification false correlation in the comments I am reading. Yes frame quality is a black box when it comes to carbon but that is irrespective to where it was manufactured. You could have the same issues from a Look or Time frame that was built in France, and those frames can and do have issues as well. Ultimately its up to the brand to implement good QC and just as important design something that isn't going to be prone to excessive defects and failures.

[@AandA697]

Is there ever any simple answer to anything in Life? Nope, guess not

[@ruiteixeira1594]

What about the Time´s and Look´s?

[@TheAntoine191]

You mostly won't be disappointed but that don't mean there wasn't some hiccup in some frame at some time. Time had a bad batch about 10 years ago that hurt the brand name badly but other than that the frame are great with nice vibration damping that you won't find elsewhere. Look is often disregarded as bike for old nostalgic guy but actually they are more innovative than most brand that do only copycat bike. There are always neat and different solutions to bike conception. The craftmanship is usually great but as with every frame you can't look above the shoulder of each worker. Time had a lot of automation in the RTM process but it wasn't flawless either.

[@metamurph]

@@TheAntoine191 some brands, and that is the root of the question have their own factories, Trek builds their own carbon. but what you present here is a good start and creates that question of "control" of manufacturing and tolerance and how you are seeing some of these manufacturers either have direct sales or vehicles like alibaba where you can buy the components as you are stating vs. the brand. Still are these "seconds" or how we see behind the curatin.

[@santouchesantouche2873]

Time and look frames are the best according to hambini

[@andrewlipsiner9791]

#timecycling #timesport very well engineered and crafted So is boutique brand www.fm-bike.com STUNNING made to measure framesets kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIHMiqCkopyggbs

[@MisTomis]

@@metamurph Trek doesn't make anything that you can buy off the shelf in USA for YEARS now, wake up kiddo

[@JogBird]

i got a Trek Emonda SLR 2016, the last generation when they were made in the usa

[@rkan2]

Still doesn't mean a thing...

[@HolmsOnBikes]

@@rkan2 How does his comment NOT mean anything? Even though today it is a very, very, very small percentage of treks bikes that are being made in Waterloo, WI, it means that if you really wanted to shell out over $10,000 then you can get an American made bike in 2020 lol

[@shibaburn7725]

@@HolmsOnBikes Trek doesn't produce any bikes in the US anymore.

[@HolmsOnBikes]

@@shibaburn7725 yes they do. It's a VERY limited amount. But I'm telling you they do lol.

[@shibaburn7725]

@@HolmsOnBikes Trek's US production ran from 2012 - 2016 I believe before they returned all production to asia. It was only on a few high-end models.

[@MrRuvimovich]

Dear Luescher Teknik. Would it be correct to suggest that any frame set from ShenZen (or some others well known Chinese cities) carbon bikes components manufacturers, which sold for as much as about $250 plus on ebay, will likely be a quite reasonable purchase isspecially considering huge difference in retail price with the top brands?

[@justaguydoingstuff8667]

Luescher has a Chinarello laying around, he's supposed to do a cut out video in the future (I've been waiting 9 months so far). Hopefully he pulls through soon !

[@joejoe8948]

You should consider buying a Canon EOS mirrorless camera with dual pixel auto focus. This will allow precise and fast focusing during video and stills.

[@hyttennis]

The M50 would serve you well. Great vlogging camera at a good price point!

[@johnl9674]

Can you do a carbon frame cut of an Orbea Have you scanned an Orbea onix

[@WanderingSword]

What are the top factories???

[@hoodyps]

Finally someone asked the right question.

[@phxrsx]

Lightcarbon, quest composites

[@greglee7708]

basically cheap chinese parts + west company sticker = price x100

[@Combat556]

I’ve got a 4 carbon bikes; Trek, Specialized, Salsa and Lemond (built by Trek). After watching a few of these videos, I’m don’t think that I’m going to buy carbon again...going back to Litespeed Titanium.

[@diegomonsalvi7217]

Titanium frame

[@fcnghkkc1]

How good are Factor frames? Which China factory (name?) are they produced?

[@LuescherTeknik]

The one's I have scanned have been less than ideal.

[@fcnghkkc1]

@@LuescherTeknik the tolerance is not up to par?

[@mikeadb]

@@LuescherTeknik of course when one comes in and needs to be cut up... I'll be all over that video!

[@willum5175]

I would like to see you cut up the Trek Madone 9.0/9.x that you mentioned having several months ago. You had people vote on the bike they would like to see and it didn’t win but I was hoping to see it at some point since I have the 2018 9.0 and would like to know how well made it is. It has a number of issues and I’d like to know whether the frame and fork are solid. Thanks for the great videos and I look forward to more!

[@HolmsOnBikes]

I voted for that one!!!! Lol

[@georgeservanis8149]

Its seems the QC may not be consistent with one particular for few manufacturers, which company can we trust because buying a bike and hoping its ok is, if that is the case why buy a carbon bike

[@PedroPrego]

Question of the day: what about carbon frames and direct drivers trainers? Can it be safe? At least in theory?

[@nickhumphrey4833]

I laughed my head off at this and Ive just realised why. It honestly had me in fits of giggles for about 15 minutes. I know this was genuine attempt to show that bike frames all come out the same factory or a range of factories.- Luesher could have just told us that and Ive would have believed him. But then you/he proceeded to go through every practicle example of the forks all coming out of the same factory for demonstration. It resembled the cadence, the repetition and the socratic irony of a Stewart Lee sketch unintentionally. funny video :)

[@pixiedixie3682]

Naaaaa! That is why I use and steel bike!

[@napskate]

Pixie & Dixie I’ve crashed because of a broken steel bike, due to a seat stay failure mid race on a downhill left hand turn in a crit. I’ve also seen fork and chain stay breaks. Metal fatigue is a real thing. On the plus side they can almost always be repaired, or recycled.

[@NeoPayneHK]

wish to know more from giant look time and LT's own brand bike

[@dirkbodschard3961]

Disillusioning information. No matter how much money we spend: We can´t do anything, just buy a pig in a poke and swallow the consequences.

[@seitenryu6844]

That's sort my takeaway as well. Unless the place and methods of manufacture are consistent, quality is unknown. Basically, the quality is a black box unless you have inspection equipment. The best way to guarantee that is keeping design, engineering, and manufacturing under one roof or ownership. A few brands do it, and they're usually more expensive, but it's a fair price for skilled labor and engineering. That's a decent argument for steel bikes, at least when budget is more of a concern, since there's much less complexity in manufacture.

[@newyorkperson]

Man if you're into cycling this is the most click bait video ever. Especially if you've watched a few and know this guy's opinion could actually have some validity and weight. Get to the end and you're like so wait, umm which bike would you get....

[@discbrakefan]

Raoul answered the question though. He doesn't have an opinion on particular brands because some models of each brand are good, while other models are not. They are not made in the same factory.

[@kc3718]

he makes his own bikes...says it all really. When he wanted a carbon fork he ordered 5, scanned them and returned 4 of them, keeping the best one. Few others have that luxury or insight and capability.

[@E34RRT]

The forks arroun 3min i have sane label on my Raleigh militis pro. 😂😂👍👍

[@Orgakoyd]

The only carbon biks I would buy are Time and Giant.

[@HoshinoMirai]

If you don't live in America, add Merida to the list. Both Giant and Merida control their productions vertically and the results would be much consistent that way. Time on the other hand, is just beautiful...

[@lancercool1992]

no threaded bb with giant, trash

[@Stoffendous]

I can answer this question: buy Giant.

[@mikexhotmail]

indeed.

[@roveism]

Clearly didn’t watch the giant propel cut up

[@parrisgeorge9708]

Great videos!

[@johnsmith1474]

You consider this a great video? Every bit of information in it could be presented in two short written paragraphs and one still image of all the forks laying side by side.

[@MrFornicater]

@@johnsmith1474 Don't complain about a video that you didn't pay for...he is under no obligation to make any videos at all. Learn from the content and move on.

[@gplama]

@@MrFornicater Sounds like someone came to KZbin looking for a blog post? ;)

[@johnsmith1474]

@@MrFornicater - I didn't "complain about a video." I commented on a comment, learn to read.

[@parrisgeorge9708]

@@johnsmith1474 My comment is Great Videos! Plural. Raoul puts out great videos with good generally in depth information. So to repeat... Great Videos! Sorry that you didn't catch the plural of my comment.

[@noptimized]

Could the same factory not have differing levels of QC depending on the standards of the brand having their frames produced there? The execution is one thing, but the standards are quite another. Naturally, we want to say that it's the quality of the factory, but this may not be entirely true. There are so many other factors.

[@joejoe8948]

What brands does Giant manufacturer?

[@weewei8897]

their own factory

[@savagedabs8536]

Giant

[@paulschmidtke425]

As far as I know Giant does some of Treks frames and if true they must do a shit load of others as well , I like giant

[@maxgrass8134]

Same factory does not mean same quality

[@napskate]

Some thoughts, 1) forks mean nothing. bike manufacturers have been sourcing forks from 3rd parties forever, I have a 20 year old lightspeed with a fork made by EMS, Richey has been making oem forks since the beginning of carbon forks. this whole episode is useless. 2) What would be more interesting is where was the bike designed, where is it made, and if the manufacture is outsourced who does the QA, what is the method of construction and what is the agreement on the tolerances of the spec on the QA. I know that Colnago makes all their bikes in house steel, Alu, Ti or carbon is cut assembled painted and QA'ed in house. Cervelo was too until Cervelo was sold to a Private Equity firm and is now made in asia. Some treks are still make in the US and the lower range is our sourced to asia.

[@LuescherTeknik]

Thanks for your input, however I think you will find that you are incorrect on a few of your points.

[@happydays8171]

Cervelo P5X is made in USA. My Trek dealer told me 2 yrs ago no Treks are made in US, not even their racing team bikes. Only the molds are made in Wisconsin and then shipped around the world. Giant makes a lot if Trek high end bikes. Sarto makes the race bikes Pinerello supply to INEOS, and about 35 other brands don't trust their Asian manufacturers with making their ultimate bikes.

[@napskate]

Happy Days Trek project one bikes are made in Waterloo still. www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/company/trek_factory_experience/

[@happydays8171]

@@napskate Thanks, my Trek dealer said the frames are mfg in Asia, shipped to Waterloo where they're painted and assembled to your fit. I've read where some Bontrager rims are actually mfg at Waterloo now. That's the extent of Trek mfg.

[@karlwalters3763]

@@napskate Sorry they are made in Asia and painted/finished in the US. There is nothing wrong with being made in some of the top tier Asian factories, aka the company that owns Giant or makes Specialized.

[@molfar9049]

bike industry is really fucked up.

[@Helsinki9]

Factor ONE and the other models of the same brand. Thanks

[@kendarcie6613]

But doesn't Giant make pretty much all their own bikes and have the best end to end control over the process?

[@iValenok]

Are you sure that same sticker means same factory but not smth like same factory accounting system?

[@discbrakefan]

Ivan Valenok Maybe, but there aren’t that many factories do it’s reasonable to expect the same system is probably the same factory.

[@StoccTube]

How many suppliers of serial number decals are there?

[@MugheesAhmed]

Serial number decals is something anyone can design and prinout on their home printer. Not exactly a highly specialized thing that would have a dedicated supplier supplying decals to all bike companies.

[@StoccTube]

Mughees Ahmed suspect you are not correct for mass production. Companies buy labels.

[@firesurfer]

I suspect it's not the supplier of the sticker that is the same, but the software that prints it. Anyone can use the same software to print a sticker. It does not necessarily mean it came from the same factory. Maybe it did maybe it did not.

[@Sills71]

Forks and frames are made in different or the same factory?

[@simonassouline45]

Quality control!

[@MortenJonassen]

Yet another depressing fact about the bike industry. Soon Boeing will also outsource all their fuselage manufacturing to this very factory :) What is the approximate cost of all the carbon/resin materials used to on an entire frame?

[@AnttiBrax]

So how far back in the refinement chain do you want to go? Carbon cloth? The single fiber? It's a bit pointless question because we know that it's a really labour intensive process. You can ballpark it by browsing cheap shit bikes from Big Rock Candy Mountain.

[@glennoc8585]

The prepreg cloth is cheap but then you have overheads and taxes.

[@1971hammydemuck]

What about Giant

[@bikepackingadventure7913]

So, just buy a winspace bike then? 😏😁😁 At least you know the origin of the manufacturer. 😐

[@manuelcalleja92]

What about Colnago frames? All handmade. Recommend?

[@sinuosalice-1434]

Alot of colnago frames are not handmade (they are make like others corbon bike) the c64 (if colnago is telling the truth) is handmade in Italy. You can even get a personalized size (not sure if you are in others countries).

[@ianiscaratti4924]

why don't you guys just ride alloy bikes? you seem to be amateurs and have to pay for your framesets if you worry that much...

[@IdleInsights]

Marketing, unfortunately. 90% of people on carbon bikes would hardly notice a difference in performance

[@ianiscaratti4924]

Idle Insights it's ok but don't cry when big brand frames have some voids and wrinkles.

[@Numeriwar]

Most alloy bikes are not sold with electric groupset or are not customizable :(

[@ianiscaratti4924]

Numeriwar most brands sell alloy framesets

[@mariusilerd9581]

Tell me about a high end alu frameset with the weight, stiffnes and ride quality of say a Ridley helium sl or a Specialized sl 3 or giant TCR then?

[@DanTuber]

So yeah.... you don't know what you're getting.

[@jacklauren9359]

What about parlee road bikes?

[@BoogieBrew]

I had two of them, one a Z3SL (compact) and the other a Z1 Classic (rebadged for "Hampsten" Cycles)... The Z3 broke before I could even ride it (10+ yrs ago)...the bottle cage pulled its rivet right outta the seat tube and they had to build a whole new frame! The Z1 was fine for a few months but I never enjoyed the ride qualities (prefer ti / steel's compliance). Then it broke CATASTROPHICALLY when its new owner, (my buddy who purchased it), was JRA and its head-tube SEPARATED from the down-tube, (after having ridden over a pothole a few days prior). He ended up needing elbow and shoulder surgery, (was inflicted with lifelong injuries). Carbon just ain't worth messing around with. (Last year my carbon drop bar broke as I was JRA -very lucky it resulted in only a modest crash). Probably the best bet is Calfee? Or just ride metal!

[@jacklauren9359]

Boogie Brew thanks for letting me know and sorry to hear about the injuries. I have the altum frame from last years model. I like the ride so far. Not as harsh as cervelo s3. I’m not sure nowadays if its best to buy titanium like lynskey road or gravel bike. I guess it’s also depends on where you ride the bike?

[@richm.9271]

He should of at least gave us a top 5 or 10 recommendations list. Something to at least look at and give a starting idea for a new bike consumer.

[@EFCasual]

Not at this level. Edit: I mean there is too much detail here for the new bike buyer. Go consume the propaganda or buy an aluminum bike.

[@richm.9271]

@@EFCasual This is exactly what a new carbon bike consumer would want to know at this level. This would be an excellent point of view from him because he's not getting paid from any bike manufacturer. It almost seams like he's kinda scared to make an opinion. Overall it's the buyers budget that will determine what they buy, but it would be nice to have a top 5 list of bikes to look at as well as the buyers list.

[@MrSmoothasf]

Jesus christ you should have been a politician. How about "bike brands all use different factories so here's the factories I recommend......"

[@robertomalatesta6604]

I might be wrong but, manufacturers do evolve; what was possibly a B grade product, in a specific temporal frame, might have given them, the opportunity to learn from their mistakes, and better the product; so why should this factory be put in the damned rows, for a past shortcoming? Jeezer's OK!

[@Arfonfree]

My bikes: two are Shimano, one is Rockshox and SRAM.

[@craigwilson3381]

ESL