Questioned: How Effective Is/Was Vietnam-Era Unguided AAA? | DCS WORLD

[@jasontam1824]

Cap during the Korean War there was an incident where after a series of dog fights and evading AAA, Brigadier General James Risner USAF's wingman Lt. Joseph Logan's plane was hit and was losing fuel. The plane was more than 100 miles away from safety and it was apparent it would not have enough fuel to make it back to safety. Risner in an effort to try and save his wingman decided to use the nose of his F-86 and inserted it into the tailpipe of Lt Logan's aircraft. Risner was successful in being able to push his plane into friendly waters however after ejecting Lt Logan drowned due to being tangled in his parachute. Is it possible to see if this is possible in DCS and perhaps create an reactment? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Robinson_Risner#Korean_War www.warhistoryonline.com/korean-war/pilot-chased-mig-china-korean.html

[@grimreapers]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZTXnYGlhrSMnrc

[@Edmister0]

FYI Cap you should consider retesting this with the AAA guns placed as groups of no more than 4 in the mission editor. AAA guns in DCS work in such a way that only 4 light/ medium guns or 6 heavy guns in a group may engage targets at a time. If you watch the video many guns are just sitting there doing nothing while the planes fly over.

[@grimreapers]

Copy thanks

[@Mojje42]

this is only partially correct

[@Rokaize]

@@Mojje42 Can you elucidate? Can you make this work with larger group? What he’s saying seems to be correct at least in my experience.

[@Mojje42]

@@Rokaize the reason why i say it's only partially correct is that some guns that you would consider light/medium fire in groups of 6.... otherwise the data is correct

[@Rokaize]

@@Mojje42 I see. So as long as no AAA go above groups of 6 then they should be fine?

[@Justineexy]

I got sad news. A Submarine belonging to the Indonesian Navy sank on 21st April. They say the submarine has enough oxygen to keep the 53 crew alive for 72 hours. Right now there's only a few more hours before the 72 hour deadline. Please pray for those 53 crew who might be alive for the last few hours in their life. Count down starts........

[@class.C]

F

[@grimreapers]

So sad :( :(

[@FatOnAxis]

not a bad way to die tho

[@lachlanweigel4681]

@@FatOnAxis cmon man...

[@passantNL]

@@FatOnAxis Slow suffocation is a bad way to go. But the sea there is apparently 700m deep so that crew probably died instantly as no regular sub is able to handle that sort of pressure. It would implode and kill the crew before it reaches the bottom.

[@jonsalmi2363]

well, perhaps you'd find this interesting my grandfather was a phantom pilot in vietnam. he remarked that while the zsu 23, radar guided or not, and other similar weapons were not great at taking out aircraft, if their job was to defend something and they got something to break off, or jettison their load, they did their job.

[@grimreapers]

Thanks Jon. He sounds awesome! Would love to talk to him about this flying :)

[@jonsalmi2363]

@@grimreapers he loves to talk about it!

[@C64SX]

That makes sense. The AAA is there to protect a specific installation, and if the installation is intact after a raid the AAA did the job it was supposed to do. Making a wall of tracers forcing the attackers to break off can be pretty effective. All of a sudden I wish the developers would let you be a commander of AAA batteries in a multiplayer setting. Could be fun :)

[@nekomakhea9440]

The point of AA isn't to shoot down planes (that's a nice bonus if it happens), its to reduce effectiveness of attacks against a target. It would be interesting to have the AA guarding a target, and test how many bombs hit target under various test conditions, like low level high speed, dodging wildly, high altitude bombing, attacking from multiple angles, employing a couple planes as anti-AA to thin out the guns before bombers arrive, etc. as a means to see how AA affects airstrike effectiveness.

[@peterbirka3116]

When I saw the opening image of this video, I had to answer because I was amused to see the S-60 again. When my father went to college, he also had to go to basic military training in the Czecho-Slovak Socialist Republic in 1985 with an anti-aircraft battery that used the Czecho-Slovak improved version of the S-60 cannon called R 10. He was trained to maintain and repair an analog computer that was transported on a Tatra 805 truck. The battery consisted of six cannons , 30 kW generator, radiolocator POHON-E, rangefinder DJA-6 and the already mentioned analog computer MOZEK 1 (english meaning - BRAIN 1) LOL. Whenever I ask my father about it, he laughs, because by the time he was assigned to it, it was already very old, probably from the sixties, and the socialist army did not want to assign him to anything more modern for fear of revealing military secrets when he goes into civilian life.

[@miroslavdockal9468]

Nic lepšího než dvojčata jsme neměli, akorát za tim nesměl sedět blbec. Bez pardonu. Táta byl radista, první přístup k informacim. Klidně se na něco zeptej.

[@Decrepit_biker]

Lamda is a Greek letter assigned to a variable in an equation. So yes it does kind of relate to a cars lamba sensor in that the both relate to a variable to be measured in the respective equations in question.

[@grimreapers]

thx

[@montys420-]

Was a good episode to show why the next gen of tactical and strategic bombers were nap of the earth!

[@TheJimtanker]

When we were rolling through Kuwait during Desert Storm there were ZPU-23-2s and ZPU-23-4s all over the place. I think they're better at hitting ground targets than air targets.

[@sheevpalpatine80]

If this was Arma those ZU-23s would have wrecked all those F-4s in seconds

[@jugganaut33]

Same goes for war thunder

[@bhenders52]

Great video! This reminds me of Operation Spring High July 27, 1965 where four squadrons of F-105's attacked what was supposed to be two SA-2 SAM sites at low altitude. Each squadron was formed into 4 four plane flights. They would fly in finger formation (shaped like the left hand; plane 1 = middle finger, 2 the index finger, 3 and 4 were the ring and little finger). The problem was that then Sec. of Defense McNamara had told the world that we were going to attack the sites. No flights were assigned to attack the AAA protecting the sites. It was a trap. They came in at 50-100 feet. Some flights began receiving fire from AAA 14 miles from the targets. The 23mm and 37mm AAA guns shot down four Thuds and half of the remaining Thuds suffered damage from ground fire. The SA-2's were gone and had been replaced by white poles. More than 130 AAA guns had been assembled in the area of the SA-2 sites. We lost six planes and 5 men. Search for interviews and books by Col. Vic Vizcarra (Ret). He has created several documentaries and authored at least two books on the Thuds. God Bless him for his service and documenting these Brave Men and the wonderful planes they flew into the hornets nest of North Vietnam.

[@grimreapers]

This sounds super cool.

[@Gong030]

Grim Reapers: "How Effective Is/Was Vietnam-Era Unguided AAA?" F-105 Pilots: "SON LET ME TELL YOU SOME THINGS."

[@grimreapers]

lols

[@bhenders52]

"North Vietnam reportedly deployed more than 8,000 anti-aircraft guns and another 1,000 to 2,000 heavy machine guns for air defense during the war. Unlike the heavy AAA, North Vietnam’s light AAA units were widely deployed outside the country, including Laos, Cambodia and South Vietnam. They downed more American planes and helicopters than all other North Vietnamese weapons systems combined." Chan A. Terror in the Skies: North Vietnam’s Light Anti-Aircraft Artillery. HistoryNet. Published December 4, 2018. Accessed April 29, 2021. www.historynet.com/north-vietnams-light-anti-aircraft-artillery.htm

[@IronPhysik]

you made a major mistake creating such large unit groups of AAA doesnt work with the mission editor you can only put up to 4 guns in 1 unit group, every gun you place above that number wont open fire So instead of putting 24 guns in 1 unit group, place 6 unit groups with 4 guns each because only 4 guns in the large group will fire. you can even see it in the video, not all guns are shooting

[@sinansarikaya3662]

@@grimreapers Are you considering take another shot at this? Nice video regardless!

[@Akendesuu]

Another re-do,?

[@griffincheng]

Redo please

[@Mojje42]

this isn't 100% correct did a lot of testing and most guns will fire... i think it was an issue with MP maybe or that there was a Player plane..not sure?

[@grimreapers]

Just re-ran the mission and 20 guns fired of the 24 gun unit. Not sure why 4 of them stayed idle. 20 guns firing is enough I think for this test.

[@captainyossarian388]

16:58 "They didn't think you were very important, obviously." Aw, the back handed love between you two is so endearing. 🤣

[@michaelfrench3396]

It's a good video. My dad said he was always way more afraid of AAA than of Sam's when he was flying. The concentration of missiles wasn't nearly as high at most targets. But medium and large caliber flak was everywhere. If I remember right he told me it was like 80 or 85% of the planes that got shot down got shot down by flak.

[@koekiejam18]

im pretty sure that figure holds up, but keep in mind AAA was usually so damn effective because high flying planes were forced towards lower altitudes because of SAM's, right into the AAA's range

[@liammarra4003]

@@koekiejam18 in other words: working exactly as intended, doing exactly what it was supposed to do.

[@koekiejam18]

@@liammarra4003 yep, but in a different way then you'd expect

[@capthawkeye8010]

Some facts about the German's Air Defense system of Germany during World War 2... 1. Flak positions usually consisted of 4 gun to 6 gun batteries in shallow dugouts (sometimes nothing at all) near local roadways for easy reach. No effort was made to conceal or hide gun positions as the positions were not usually targeted. Gun positions with 12 guns were experimented but this wasn't considered an optimal arrangement (too many guns under one command, too much ammunition stockpiling for one site). 2. Usually 4/5ths of the local guns would be 88mm AAA guns with a minority percentage of 20mm or 37mm guns which were not preferred. 3. Flak batteries were almost always under Luftwaffe command, but batteries on the coast could be under the Kriegsmarine and AAA batteries at the front typically fell under Heer (Army) command. 4. The Kammhuber Line can be googled to show what a "slice" of the air defense line in Holland looked like and gives one a good idea of what Flak positions in such an arrangement would look like and how many might be there. Note the heavy use of searchlight positions and the occasional early warning radar site. Beacons are radio direction finders for Nachtjager or Night Fighters. When flying, night fighter pilots would takeoff and fly to these beacons and then orbit them until contacted by a GCI who would vector them to an enemy flight. Nachtjager typically flew alone.

[@grimreapers]

thxx

[@capthawkeye8010]

@@grimreapers I know it's a bit off-topic but it's for context about what came just before this period in Air Defense networking. Like this is to give people an idea of what an Air Defense using AAA might actually look like. The Russians sound like they had a different approach to all it, generally attaching AAA almost entirely to Red Army formations and leaving First Gen SAMs to defend the Soviet Union. The earliest SAMs were generally immobile so they were fine for defending cities.

[@alnotz]

Centralization needed in WW2, where commands were given via voice or telephone, target data was given to the entire battery - guns needed to be as close as possible. S-60 battery included optical fire controller station PUAZO-6-60 that was connected to each gun with data cable as well as the SON-9 radar director was connected to the optical control station. Also they were alerted to the incoming planes by watchmen, search radars or friendly troops so they could fire a blocking barrage in the path of the attacking formation. Flying through the cloud of concentrated fire cause the most plane kills, I read it somewhere

[@airbornestuff]

Great addition. Demonstrating well why you'd better keep low even against AAA and don't enter without good reason the "r*pe altitude": the one anyone will have a clear tally at you and any bullet sent at you will go.

[@capthawkeye8010]

I'm not entirely sure AAA in DCS can receive guidance from track radar. The KS-19 and S-60 could both be radar guided, but most firing was optical due to attack runs by US aircraft typically being very low. The Kommanogerat seems to give radar-like performance to flak batteries its attached to though, the Flak 41's performance is especially impressive if its paired to one. I've been hit occasionally in the F-16 against that combination. Not sure it works with non-German flak systems though...

[@Axgoodofdunemaul]

Cap and friends, thanks for this, it was most educational plus entertaining. Who knew that combat only needed a great and witty M.C. to be fun?!? One little bit of input from me (I served two tours as a ground-pounder in Vietnam): next time you do this, use geographical place names in the former North Vietnam; there's no way the opposition could have put this much flak anywhere south of the DMZ, even with S-60s. Thanks again brother, and you too, R.C.

[@loganholmberg2295]

Just wondering if having a radar dish nearby would give the guns more early warning? The NVA did have radar that they tracked the US with after all.

[@andrewlambert7246]

The Argentinians shot down many British aircraft including Harrier during Falklands war with 30 mm AA guns. I dont remember if they were radar guided.

[@AriaAzari]

in 1960s, during Shah era, Iranian Army purchased some ZSU-57-2 from soviet union, during the 80s, in Iran-Iraq war, its discovered that these AAAs are useless against fast Iraqi jets, like mig-21 or su-7, so in Iran we found another usage for them, using ZSU-57-2 only as an anti helicopter SPAAG, the result was good, many Iraqi Mi-24s and Gazelles were victims of Iranian ZSU-57-2s.

[@grimreapers]

thx

[@Archer89201]

Soviets figured that out in the 60s and added radar and got the ZSU-23-4s, all pilots are weary since then

[@AriaAzari]

@@Archer89201 no, ZSU-23-4 development is completely unrelated to ZSU-57, And the funny things is ZSU-23-4 have a very heavy and bulky mechanical computer to use radar data, (range, direction and speed) This computer is almost impossible to repair or adjust and with the simple ECM usage by enemy will be useless. Without upgrades that performed on Shilkas independently in past 15 years especially by Russia, Poland, Romania, Ukraine and Iran, original ZSU-23-4s are completely ineffective, Another problem is their water cooling system for 4 guns that very unreliable and needs to upgrade.

[@Archer89201]

@@AriaAzari well they are related in the sense that the Russians realized that the non radar guided AA guns had difficulties tracking ever faster jets that is why they went with the radar guided guns in the shilka, and yes these days they are not top level threat but when introduced it was one of the best. Also even today against non top tier airforces it is a viable platform and has seen continued upgradea including manpads attachments

[@alnotz]

@@AriaAzari ZSU-23-4 had many versions, only the early one was called Shilka.. ZSU-23-4V and ZSU-23-4M were called Beryoza instead. Equipment of soviets were always better than those they sold to the WP or third world.

[@smexyskelator3209]

Might I recommend an event style thing? Lots and lots off AA from SAM to AA guns in a large city a lot of players must then circle the city and survive as long as possible while staying within the area and under height restrictions

[@grimreapers]

Sounds fun

[@PenguinConspiracyProject]

Lamda is a type of calculation dating back to the Spartans. The specifics are above my head but it's on Wikipedia if anyone is interested.

[@KuvDabGib]

Alas, in DCS Ai sometimes is insanely precise, and i mean insanely it is like they are all equiped with 3D targeting radar, not with just 1 shaggy optical sight..

[@haroldslawter7943]

The biggest break threw was the proxy fuse once aa had those it went from luck to planes going down

[@winglessviper]

Use multiple planes at multiple altitudes and speed. See how that works. You guys are great at what ya do.

[@bodan1196]

Between 1962-1973, there was 79 US aircraft (of all types) shot down by enemy aircraft, 197 shot down by SAMs and 2140 shot down by small arms and AAA. Adding the 145 aircraft that was destroyed on the ground by enemy attacks on airbases, the number of aircraft lost to enemy action was 2561. Another 1158 aircraft lost, counted as operational losses. Making a total of 3719 aircraft. (Or 338 per year, six and a half per week. Almost one per day.) So of the 2561 lost to enemy action, 2140 was shot down by AAA and small arms. (That is 83.5%) The number of helicopters lost to enemy action is 2587, of which AAA and small arms accounted for 2373. (91.7%) Lost to all causes: 8588. ((source: Vietnam Air War by René Francillon. ISBN 0 600 55284 5))

[@grimreapers]

wow! Thanks

[@malusignatius]

Next time, let the Phantoms shoot back... That should make things interesting.

[@F22raptor46]

In the second run RC lost an entire leading edge slat, how did you guys miss that?

[@bearcatracing007]

That last one was crazy boom boom

[@theflanman1986]

I love your content well done sir thank you for your hard work.

[@grimreapers]

thx

[@glenproctor1999]

Repeat but with B-52's? The larger guns are more effective against larger aircraft.

[@slgarrett]

More typically, you would layer up AAA guns.

[@alnotz]

Thanks for the video! One of my favourite AAA , the S-60 is happy to bee seen in DCS. Unfortunately it is quite obvious it is terribly modeled and im not sure if it can be done at all. Sight range is quite poor, proximity fuse non-existent, barrage fire non-existent... and of course no early warning methods , nor any SON-9, "Firecan" control..

[@aztec0112]

Try barrage fire. Set up a barrage box and fly the Phantoms through it.

[@IronPhysik]

wont work at day,. as soon as the AAA actually "sees" the unit they stop doing the barrage and aim normally at it barrage only works when the AAA cannot see the enemy plane (at night for example)

[@aztec0112]

@@IronPhysik Interesting! Did not know that. Thanks for the tidbit! 👍👍

[@cbzgn38]

RC is missing the leading edge on his right-wing in the second run.

[@nameismetatoo4591]

_YOU HAVE A HOLE IN YOUR RIGHT WING!_

[@lohrtom]

I don’t know about AAA, but AA is not effective at all. I spent two years in the program and I’m still hitting the bottle.

[@grimreapers]

lols we see what you did there x

[@richieismyhero]

This video is sponsored by duracell. Poor RC again he gets some flak 🤣

[@malakyenero9423]

Great content hope for more

[@RaV591]

Dcs doesn’t seem very optimised for mass clusters of AI as seen by their reaction time.

[@ryanfreebody6881]

The funny thing about this is the fact, if this was War Thunder those planes would have been dead in a flash.

[@ryanfreebody6881]

SCAM!!

[@therocinante3443]

These guns are awesome... I wonder how they are vs tanks ;)

[@martindinner3621]

If they see your side armor they'll open you like a tin of beans.

[@Rhinozherous]

Nice! Thank yxou!

[@aeronaut1406]

Ask IAF Canberra and Hunter pilots.

[@Husker5454]

Can you test the flak barrages next and see how effective they are

[@grimreapers]

rgr

[@Husker5454]

@@grimreapers hell yea .

[@mk6315]

11:48 you basically said you want the simulation to behave as organically as possible. Humans are great 😂

[@la-codeband]

Hmmmm ...that water looks terrible.. glassy lake :)

[@Archer89201]

Alone they are not that effective but the problem was the Vietnamese used everything together- 37mm, 23mm, 57mm, 100mm, machine guns of every calible, SAMs and even rifles... The threat vector was such that if the pilot reacted to one the other got them hence over 5000 aircraft were destroyed

[@grimreapers]

thx

[@michaelfrench3396]

Just out of curiosity did you guys have any of this stuff set to proximity? Cuz I didn't see anything exploding in the air nor did I see half the vehicles track when you were doing the ZSU's

[@IronPhysik]

57mm guns have no prox fuzes, only impact fuzes the reason so many guns did not fire was because they all there in 1 unit group the limit of guns per single unit group is 4 for all automatic AAA guns, place more and still only 4 will fire. so what cap should have done is place 6x4 guns instead of 1x24 guns to have every gun shoot.

[@gregmaupin8929]

Dang RC someone has a woody for you to get a lucky bb

[@RoughGaming2020]

We Support you RC ;)

[@kellymcguire1385]

Can't you change the engagement range of units?

[@griffincheng]

May I ask if these AAA are included in the base game, or do I need extra packs?

[@grimreapers]

Yes base game

[@poiu477]

Cap you should set the planes higher

[@poiu477]

i think they are too low for the aaa to setup for the shot

[@poiu477]

nevermind

[@logisticsnail5014]

Yeaaaah!!! Appreciate it cap!!!!

[@coltonrooster]

Ok... I'll sub... It's entertaining...

[@TinfoilHatWearer]

I don't understand... All of the anti air is in line of sight of the aircraft... But not all of them are firing. And, there is a huge delay.. Why? It's almost as if they are waiting until directly overhead... Doesn't seem realistic to me...

[@RPrubber]

Are you sure that a EWR will not make it easier for the AAA ?

[@pogo1140]

EWR is passive.

[@RPrubber]

@@pogo1140 Early-warning radar is definitely not passive. ;)

[@pogo1140]

@@RPrubber Early Warning Radars are usually the size of a large building, I don't see too many of those mounted on fighters

[@RPrubber]

@@pogo1140 Never said something about fighters.. I said that they could help the AAA.

[@pogo1140]

@@RPrubber EWR are not usually tied to radar guided guns, they use a different, more direct radar for target search and acquisition. Some systems have a 2 radars one for searching the second is the smaller tracking radar that actually provides guidance.

[@Ufo2231]

Why do the jets drop their missiles when hit?

[@sebastians6028]

If they are damaged to the point that they can't continue there mission, they will drop everything so they can escape and rtb easyer, and there is no point in bringing bombs home

[@passantNL]

Because they can't complete their mission and it is too dangerous to bring unused (and possibly damaged) bombs and missiles back to base on a damaged jet.

[@lietuvospatriotasnr1678]

100th like :) like your content

[@ivanstepanovic1327]

In reality, ZSU-57-2 was garbage! The only use it saw in Yugoslav conflicts, at least, was against ground targets. And there, it was scary effective! But against air, very little, even for the time it was designed. It had a bit slow turret traverse for AA gun and awful sights with slow rate of fire and low ammo capacity. That is why it was quickly replaced with Shilka. 20, 23 and 30 mm guns were way more effective just cos they were able to throw much more lead into the air in very short period of time. Even during NATO attack on Yugoslavia in 1999, the AA guns were surprisingly effective. Not in shooting down planes as much as in making their life more difficult. After seeing massive amounts of tracers coming his way, the pilot would get nervous which in return could force him into abandoning the mission or making a mistake and missing the target. Also, it forced them to fly at higher altitudes. And gun crews also tried often to hit their bombs and missiles before they reach the target. Not too many hits there either, tbh...

[@alnotz]

AZP-57 was made for medium altitude and with fire control.. not so much for close range. Although - unlike popular belief - ZSU-57-2 also had fire control radar for a battery, the "Firewheel" it was rarely used. Carefully laid and centralised S-60 did much better job.

[@Optimaloptimus]

Answer. Way too effective. Literally the primary attrition attributor during Vietnam irl.

[@Flapjackbatter]

They are smoky. Is this a mod? Too smokey for E models, I think. Interesting though. No doubt dangerous to press while bombing.

[@EdgeR2]

AA AI seems pretty dumb lol

[@steph4050]

I do love DCS ... but the AI is so bad. The most basic task cannot be done. Plane crashing into mountains, choppers not attacking their target with their gun ...prefering to fly in circle over the target... etc etc etc . That simulator could be awesome, but the AI need a full rewrite. I do not see how they could have a dynamic campaign without this being done.

[@grigorispanousis9745]

So is the ai of the planes

[@IronPhysik]

its not the AI, its CAP messing up the settings for unit groups most guns did not fire because all 3 unit groups went over the limit of 4 guns a group can control to fix that he should have placed 6x4 guns instead of 1x24 like he did in the video.