ASOIAF Theories & Discussions: The Dawn Age

[@DavidLightbringer]

I totally agree that the pact makes a ton more sense if it happened during the Long Night. That's exactly when mankind might have taken up a new religion of their former enemies wholesale - during the cultural bottleneck of the Long Night when societal order would have collapsed and man needed the children to survive. This fits very well with my theory that the Hammer of the Waters is a moon meteor event that occurred at the beginning of the Long Night. The Pact was said to follow the Hammer, and I think that's right - the thing is that these events were concurrent with the Long Night, not centuries prior. The pact was also the creation of the Night's Watch, I believe, and that's why the original NW all swore their precious NW oaths to weirwood trees. The NW literally swears their oaths to the greenseers... think about that.

[@billhicks3835]

Lucifer means Lightbringer Honest question. How do you keep from falling into the chicken and egg paradigm of what caused what? That is, if it was a meteor are you saying it was independent of whatever rituals and/or sacrifices, did the tales of those sacrifices arise as an explanation, or did the rituals cause it? You probably cover this, and I've checked it out a bit, but I'm just asking.

[@DavidLightbringer]

That's a good question. At first I assumed (using my rational mind) that the meteors must have simply fell, as meteors do, and people later ascribed it to deeds of mankind. But, I have been led by the symbolic evidence to conclude that sorcerers did actually cause it to happen. That's a big topic of its own, but yes, i think mankind caused it to happen.

[@mckenziehosey9949]

Lucifer means Lightbringer I definitely feel like it's a kind of combination like maybe the massive blood sacrifice caused a meteor to fall and I also think the same happened with the Doom, a blood sacrifice or some type of blood magic caused a meteor to fall and disrupt the volcanoes

[@autopartsmonkey7992]

the dawn age for us would be like ...12,000-10,000 bc. right after the end of the last ice age..and a bit before. there was prob a massive civilization in india right before the end of the last ice age..and when the seas rose,,,every coastline in the world moved a few 100 miles inland....and 90% of the population lives on that coast. so we lost all records and ways to investigate these pre ice age end civilizations.

[@moniquegebeline4350]

Lucifer means Lightbringer I think we have to go back MORE to the age of LEGENDS

[@michaelmele3954]

I think that the reason the white walkers are back is because the pact is expired or broken. Ice and fire are supposed to stay separate, as of the last pact, but then when R+J= whoever, that baby represents the end of the last pact.

[@yourdashingheroidol7909]

P.s. I wish the green men on the Isle of faces, were all Charlie Kelly Green men from "Always sunny".

[@vivecthepoet36]

Azor Ahai is the Day Man, Fighter of the Night Man, Champion of the Sun, and Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone.

[@aaronneal6421]

I mean I think there is a lot about the commonly accepted timeline that is dead-wrong. I think I am on board with the idea that the Andals are much more recent arrivals than the commonly accepted story, given the conspicuously specific date for the scouring of Lorath. However this does mean that the Last Long night probably happened much more recently than most people think.

[@princeprocrastinate6485]

Love these videos, and love that the Order of the Green Hand and Quinn are doing these together, two of my favourite ASOIAF KZbin channels.

[@GhostHand]

I don't think the Night King is merely a presence in the weirwood net, I think The Great Other is.

[@KILLRAIN42]

I'm not horribly familiar with the map of ASOIAF but I do know a little bit about ocean currents and how they dictate climates to a certain degree. It's possible that when the arm of dorne was destroyed it changed currents enough to affect the climate. How much it would, and whether it's possible to do so in the massive crazy huge numbers and timeframes Martin writes in I don't know. But a drastic change in currents and changes to the over all water level does have effects.

[@xavier84623]

The opening song is gorgeous. Very lotr.

[@stephpavone]

I am never able to catch these live but I absolutely love your live chats and your channel. You, LML and SmokeScreen keep my curiosity in regards to ASOIAF peaked. You have a great voice and a great perspective.

[@CrabCrow]

The children and the others kind of remind me of the skeksis and the Mystics in the Dark Crystal. Two halves of the same coin separated by some great sundering. Blood magic seems to be on the fire side of the magic scale so it would make sense with the whole ice/fire war.

[@michaelhenry3234]

Damn, I just watched James' video on that movie.

[@NeroLeMorte]

Just finished the netflix series yesterday loved both the show and dark crystal movie.

[@nathanroberts8654]

Had to go back in time for a relisten! Great discussion guys. Two of my favorite content creators

[@truemisto]

someone may have had this idea before. but. when it is said "sacrifice their own children" for the working of magic - perhaps the children of the forest breed so slowly and dwindle so much because their sacrifice was not of already-born children but a sacrifice of future children or a sacrifice of childbearing ability also consider possible connection between weirwoods and ghost grass

[@jeremiahjorgensen1594]

thats nice

[@thastoopkid4890]

Ideas of ice and fire + The order of the Greenhand = The dream team Much love. Valar Morghulis

[@DavidLightbringer]

Didn't catch this live but I'm enjoying it so far, good convo!

[@DavidLightbringer]

Enjoying the discussion of "gorging"

[@vangraff3478]

"Lightbringer" is the adjective, Lucifer also means "Morning star" :D

[@captainanopheles4307]

The children seem crespular, that is twilight dwellers with dappled skins. Like deer.

[@tatteredprince2097]

Sunspear's keep definitely looks like a ship. It has been described as to have the look of a dromond. They even named the damned thing Sandship.

[@thecolorlessking6668]

Can you please get 'In Deep Geek' on your live show?! He is very well spoken and has awesome theories hit him up m8! Please!

[@seanmayory]

I've watched this a few times. This time something jumped out at me. You were talking about the children and their numbers and what might have affected that. This bit that jumped at me was their breeding cycle. For instance as you suggest maybe they only breed in spring or summer. Were/Did the children try to extend a certain season to help them recover numbers. They just never expected or consider the other side of the season coin. The long night was purely and accident or consequence of them creating a really long summer. The vast ice field let something connect to westeros in the north. And they've never had enough power to fix the mistake, only enough to patch the problem a bit at a time or maybe they are locked in a war where winter keeps trying to take over. You also mention the children only showed up at the last minute. What if those children were the children born during that one extended season and it wasn't till that point they were old enough to help. Imagine maybe the old ones are children from way before, and the new gods are the children born during the extended season.

[@matiascarvalho9424]

Clever clever theory. I think it's too specific for the information that we have around. You should be paying attention in upcoming books for clues that lines up (or contradicts) this idea

[@michaelmele3954]

Assuming that the doom of valeyria, the breaking of the ark of dorn, and the creation of the swamps near the neck were all the same type of occurance: Is there a recurring battle happening between the magics of ice and fire, continually being mediated by the children over and over again every couple thousand years? Theres a new azor ahai character each time, a new sword of the morning, there's a different night king/queen, bael and the blue rose, rheagar/lyanna, coupling and making babies to seal the pact between fire and ice for another long while. Somewhere between the far north and the shadow by asshai, a line is drawn and territory is divided between the frozen north and the warmth of the reach. I think both fire and ice represent death and the children represent peace and balance between them.

[@yourdashingheroidol7909]

Great analogy w/the bugs in the corner.The guy from Ideas seemed to own the guy from the Order at every turn.Love em both tho.

[@GorbonM]

Maybe deep forest actually means the underground weirwood net as in the forest deep underground and not the centre of forests this would make it more similar to the myth you described

[@Hambie76]

Tropical Humans are also tall, not just northern people. In fact Humanity appears to be a tropical animal to begin with.

[@nicolekapella7234]

Maybe the COTF sacrificing their children to call dark magic wasn't literal. Like if that dark magic broke the seasons and they mate on a seasonal cycle, they would have sacrificed any future offspring

[@coralblake9868]

The Hammer of the waters could have been a meteor and a tsunami.

[@kanpaisou]

@1:09:00 GRRm does write like that, he writes exactly like that actually. You should check his previous works. They made me look at asoiaf from a wholenew perspective.

[@joshualindquist9305]

Look up the psychological term "shadow," could shed some light (pun not intended) on Quaith, Danny and her dreams...then listen to Tool "46 and 2.

[@Lily2U1515]

Eskimos and Mongolians are short dude. Some African tribes are tall as well.

[@BrianWiles504]

Yeah that shit really ground my gears.

[@zmsays]

Do we have any research tying the two peoples together genetically? I'm just extrapolating on the whole "ice/land bridge" they discussed for the native american immigration thing earlier in the video. Also, he specifically referenced European cultures. So, yeah hes making a completely anecdotal observation but I'd like to look a little more into that, myself.

[@Robocopnik]

It's slightly more complicated than how they explained it, it's more about the ratio of body-mass to surface area, but they're right. Look up Bergmann's rule .

[@Robocopnik]

look up Bergmann's rule.

[@nocarrotjuststick3375]

Except it’s based on selective breeding. So basically the evolutionary traits might be beneficial to the environment

[@illiteratethug3305]

The first men are not based upon native americans. First Men = Ancient Britons, Andals = Angles/Saxons, Targerians = Normans

[@christiancristof491]

It's not that simple. George takes inspiration for every single thing from a lot of things. Not just one.

[@vivecthepoet36]

Normans, but also Romans. And the cycle of culture invading and displacing culture, which is then invaded and displaced, is repeated over and over in specifically Irish and Celtic mythology and history too; not even the Celts were the original inhabitants of Britain.

[@sophiawilson8696]

First Men are the Celtics, the Andals are Anglo Saxons. I thought never the Valyrians as Normans but it fits.

[@brucewaite3733]

My two favorite content creators in the same place. Awesome.

[@NorthernXY]

HEY! I was listening to that music.

[@samjovii]

Arya wouldn't have sat around waiting for the Lannisters to push her around. I recall her trying to battle The Hound, after he defeated Beric, seeking justice for the Butcher's boy she met on the King's road. Arya would've survived Sansa's trials by not sitting around for the trials in the first place.

[@daddydawn1653]

Iv listened to this three times now :)

[@lisaalvarez9742]

I couldn't listen live tonight. But woohoo am I excited to listen now. I love your channel as well as the OOTGH. My faves!!

[@LadyShar]

Sorry I missed this live. Enjoyed it so much.

[@DafyddBrooks]

wow! keep making these videos man, Youre really great at them :)

[@robutegurllyman9228]

What is that music at the beginning? It's beautiful!

[@daenysthedreaemer1916]

Heya Quinn from Aussie awesome video! Keep it up. I just bought Lovecraft books,thanks to you Quinn!Can anyone please tell me the best reading order. I’ve read The Call of Cthulhu and it’s mindfuckingly out of this world

[@Jogemian]

Late on this but whatever... I would argue, that "The Andals" as collective don't really exist, atleast not anymore. The people of Westeros are of a diverse anthropogenic heritage. Also myths and misconceptions about history didn't have to start as perpetrated lies. Time just has this effect on non writting records. So saying that the entire order of the maester is still purposely trying to mislead people on history is also kinda missing many things. Many Maesters do probably care about accuracy and the historic truth but don't have much to work with. I can definetely see some andal Lords to be the source of the false historic "knowledge" written down by maesters, but the best lies build on shards of truth. A good point made in one of the Order of the Greenhand videos is the false andal versions of first men castles. While it is right, that first men did know how to build with stone, in some parts of Westeros (Bear Island f.e) their heirs still live in wooden structures. Additionally, many first men castles definetly were upgraded later with andal knowledge. The Round towers of Winterfel are a good example for that. But still, good points by both of you-

[@brianfroh5072]

YES! Order and your channel are my fav!

[@masterneo96]

Nice stream/video! Every time you have TOGH on your channel your discussions becoma very deep :) I think you would enjoy the contnent of TOGH. They backup every theory with book evidence :D

[@christophersobieszczyk9234]

I find the mystery of the world of Ice and fire as if not more fascinating than the main storys (asoiaf/ dunk and egg) I even find it more interesting real world history maybe because there is the possibility of real magic in the world of Ice and and fire and no matter how interesting our world is it's basically all, well understood scientific processes that have caused it. I digress. I love seeing these topics covered it keeps me interested while me and the world wait for T.W.O.W. keep up the good work. Cool to see your Ideas of Ice and Fire taking off

[@eggwaffle]

The real tale of earth and humanity is more interesting that you might think. Truth is usually stranger than fiction if you know where to look!

[@kashikoicat]

I feel like of all the words to describe eating, "gorging" is the most negative. For one "engorged" is to be uncomfortably full, perhaps even grotesquely full to point of popping. It comes along with connotations of lack of control, being unable to help one's self

[@MaestroRigale]

Just thinking out loud here, based on what you said: the agricultural lifestyle of the First Men (bringing new species of plant and animal, suppressing or destroying plant and animal species that interfere with their cultivars, building and reshaping the land) was unacceptable to the Children, while the pastoral/herding lifestyle of the more solitary Giants was tolerable since they had a lower population, (presumably?) no large population centers, and semi-nomadic herders have less of an impact on the land than large scale agriculture.

[@captainanopheles4307]

Maybe the children made them so. Perhaps altering threats is their thing.

[@belliott538]

How can you Miss the Difference between Gorging On Chocolate Puddin' and Gorging On Grief? There is nothing Positive about Gorging On Grief... Great Video By The Way! ;^)

[@ruckusofredlake2077]

Any chance you can tell me the title and artist of the opening song?

[@cullenfarran3750]

Leaf calls the giants our bane and our brothers. In a game of thrones. That would indicate that the singers and the giants did fight off and on through out the ages. And Leaf says that there is no place for the singers, the giants, and the direwolves in the world the Men are building.

[@jjollu]

Ahahahaha Chad Summerchild in the Live Chat :'DD AAAWESOMEEEE

[@christophersobieszczyk9234]

Dude

[@ratgirl34]

29:41 I actually don’t take issue with the Children using obsidian before’ encountering the Others. Our first tools were flint and obsidian chipped into useful shapes. It isn’t a stretch to me that the Children’s technology started and ended with this.

[@greenman6141]

lava has fountained thousands of feet in the air on many occasions and it doesn't tilt the planet. the many mistakes and prejudices of the world of ice and fire are largely in jokes, it is meant to be amusing rather than proof of plotting. Even Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[@Badgerbadger1]

What's the intro music? Kind of reminds me of the PBS Irish in America episode one intro but I'm not sure.

[@thecomet6276]

I didn’t get to hear this live but good convo. Question: when is the next one?

[@okolona1]

Giants, Children of the Forest, Others are all separate breeds of hominids. What about the giants ? Do they make tools ? They never seem to have weapons. How do they hunt?

[@jessicaross417]

R W They're confirmed to be vegetarians in the books

[@nickcalmes8987]

The first long night never happened!! Bran went back in time to build the wall and Winterfell to ensure that humanity defeated the Others when they came. I think that Bran went back and told stories of what happened in the distant future and over time, those stories developed into what happened in the past. I think one key piece of evidence to suggest that in fact, the long night never happened was how there were stories of knights before knights even existed (i.e. before the Andals even came). Lann the Clever = Tyrion and infiltrated Casterly Rock via the sewer system. Lann was described as handsome (which is a play on Tyrion's ugliness). When Old Nan said that there were so many Brans that they all run together and may have been the same person, that triggered to me at least, a red flag that Bran did go back in time at numerous times to ensure that certain events took place. I think the Pact you are talking about was the Pact of Ice and Fire to ensure balance in the world. (Dany and Jon). The pact may have been between the Children and the Humans and Ice and Fire.

[@Hambie76]

Nick Calmes I agree with the Time Traveling Bran thing, at the least I think being a warg allows him to control people through time and he would just call himself Bran. However I thought Lan the Clever was a woman? But yes, there is this constant hammering by The three eyed crow about being unable to influence people through Green-seeing. It seems to me like a plot point. His whole arc seems like he is the prototype for all the Bran's that he is the namesake of.

[@nocarrotjuststick3375]

Nick Calmes I disagree

[@stephendean2896]

What's the title of music at the beginning of the video It gave me chills

[@DavidBaronStevensPersonal]

Earthquakes do in fact alter the axis on which the earth rotates

[@dsimPA85]

I think the main reason why the timeline of the Dawn Age doesn’t make sense is...why create the others AFTER the pact? But I guess that wasn’t shown in the books (yet).

[@sophiawilson8696]

I knew this old post but I am answer the show version is different. The synopsis is that there renegades pack of children that disagree with pack and wanted kill all the First Men. The weapon of power the Night King escape and wait and built it own army. The is show version of things I think it going to be different in books.

[@bigearl33]

IOIAF & OOTGH, BIG UPS !!

[@userxv]

Man this channel you have way more views!

[@captainanopheles4307]

Maybe the children 'dealt with' the giants, making them docile and dim.

[@joshtedmanson6078]

Been too long since hearing "lying pos Andals"!

[@NicoCoeurDeLion]

Late but I was researching beyond belief. To your suggestion that there are different Children of the Forrest and practice different magic I think you’re on to something...why is there children North and South of the Wall? I think they had Children that hated mankind and then Children that didn’t mind coexisting or understanding that they had to work with mankind or live in harmony. I see the Children North of the wall as the stubborn northerners “Here since the Dawn Age!” “ Before the first men!” Things like that Or maybe exiled or part of the pact. Also The Three Eyed Raven always felt like a prisoner of the Children to me. Forced to spy and watch and influence to do their bidding not exactly giving all or full truth. The Children do seem creepy to me Also what gets me is the Others symbols and hieroglyphics seem to be some sort of calendar from the show or maybe some magic spell I think GRRM makes it known that no one is innocent in this series/universe and that there’s always 2 sides to a story ( in this case we got plenty fuckin sides). We got a small taste of the Children North of the Wall. Maybe the Children in the Godseye tell it differently...Hard to say. I think all of it was both magic, trial and error and coincidental along followed by religion, folklore, legends and written history as well as re written history such as Andals...

[@NicoCoeurDeLion]

“Stuck on Winter and stuck on night” look at the hieroglyphics that are involved with The Others. I think it’s a clock or calendar type shit

[@ZackThoreson]

I think that the planet of this world has a very unstable axis, causing the somewhat random seasons. Perhaps it is falling into an ice age for the past few thousand years. I don't like the idea that magic is involved.

[@foxnharo]

I love magic, but as an uncompresible and unpredictable force and not one who anyone can use to shape the world as they want

[@xludodownx]

The World of Ice and Fire is a gift to Tommen, not Joffrey.

[@ferodrigues1211]

you need some music in the background

[@daddydawn1653]

Felipe Rodrigues just play music in your background

[@DavidBaronStevensPersonal]

You only need to rewrite history when knowledge of the truth is a threat to you

[@IronGuy.]

Song at the begining?

[@lw14robbie31]

Yessssss order of the greenhand

[@kimberlygl36]

It was written to /addresses Tommen not Joff

[@lesliemisaacs]

I have a bunch of questions for you after listening to this. Is it ok to post them here?

[@QuinnsIdeas]

Yes

[@fookinaye8277]

we're waiting.... lol

[@DevinDTV]

"I was like"

[@jdans23]

What if the hammer of water created the doom of Valeria because it on the opposite side of the planet

[@eggwaffle]

except it's not

[@kanpaisou]

Centeries seperate the 2

[@trackyjon-jonandjimmymoop274]

That intro music cut-off, though

[@captainanopheles4307]

'wise heads of both races' doesn't preclude a hive mind. It's written by unreliable humans describing how humans would act.

[@shawnedwards7291]

8:42. Actually ur getting history from George rr Martin. U peopple do realize this is all fiction right?

[@magicman3400]

Shawn Edwards the world of ice and fire was written in universe by a maester as a gift to tommen

[@hediehnazarian]

I really enjoyed this video, although I'm not a fan of Order of the Green Hand. They dig too much into the details to try to find evidence to support their predetermined point of view and frequently twist the truth to fit their theory. I had to unfollow them because it was really starting to bug me.

[@eggwaffle]

They lost you on their most simple theory? Your mind has been dulled by the show I see.

[@hediehnazarian]

eggwaffle 😒 In what part of my comment did I say I didn't understand the theory? Please learn how to read. Also I've read the books twice & the show sucks.

[@RizztrainingOrder]

Lame

[@476megaman]

14:35 do these people not know what porridge is?

The Netherlands isn’t in Northern Europe bro

[@nocarrotjuststick3375]

nomar Dinkleberg Whut lol

[@akeelbrown7675]

The children sound so creepy but so cool, fuck em though humans all the way 💯 i'd love to have one as a pet though.

[@yourdashingheroidol7909]

It was a gift to Robert,not Joff.

[@scottmcley5111]

DAVE AND MARY! SAWEET!

[@lucidity1]

if the argument against evolution needs to go away, stop calling it a believe. call it a fact and say you accept evolution. calling it a believe strengthens their position. saying "I believe in evolution" means they can say "I believe in creationism/a creation miracle" which makes these two propositions sound equivalent, because they are both believes, while they are not. those that accept evolution have many pieces of evidence supporting their claim while the creationists have noting.

[@inaruboricua]

Pitiful comparison to Native Americans and Europeans, when you change that history into cultural disagreement, not outright genocide and land theft by Europeans. It wasn't an issue of living "with" as opposed to "off" the land; it was about the lands, the continent taken, period.

[@miguelolvera2538]

V Cubed actually it isn’t considered genocide, with the exception of the events that occurred in 19th century California, 98% of it was accidental from disease the rest was self inflicted through civil war, and then constantly being relocated by the whites, but not considered genocide

[@valkorion8958]

In Mexico at least, it was mostly native tribes and some Spaniards against the Aztecs. And it was hardly a massacre, in fact the Aztecs had the advantage by numbers, Spaniards weren't even 1000 but the tribes that joined them even it out. Aztecs only lost because of the plague. Now in the North it was even more peacful, it was just settlers colonizing in harsh lands. They were constantly being raided by the natives and then those just died off. Only one were we can consider it a "genocide" is in South America. The Incas were quite peaceful but reluctantly accepted these foreigners, thing they'll regret because they were attacked by them. They gave up all the gold and were still treated like shit, then they died because of the plague. But it was mostly because of the rebellious nature of the commanders. The Spaniards didn't want to conquer and manage land at the other side of the world, they just wanted trade.

[@covenawhite4855]

@Not Your Business So when Medieval Kings waged War it was OK to destroy all of Europe. What about when Rome killed the White Celtic People in Britain does Rome need to be destroyed like Native American. There would be no one in Europe, Asia, Africa, Americas if making war is the only qualification to be killed in Genocide.

[@KalashnikovPaouzzi]

strong women dont need ships

[@spellbindinglunacy99]

1:04:14 False, the Inuit people in the arctic are shorter than people who live south of them.

[@Allexstrasza]

Like, like, like, thing, thing, thing. I was like, think, think think.

[@tykeisha620]

I’m not a fan of this Dave guy

[@TheMockAgenda]

The green hand guy sounds like an angry dude, not pleasant to listen to.

[@Scribe333]

i really dislike order of the green hand. everything about their attitude and vibe.

[@enigmas00]

What specifically?

[@danofthedead1979]

Sarah P it's not proven in cannon. It may be the case in the show, but not necessarily in the books. I actually go along with Ned + Ashara = Jon theory. I think Aegon is the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, I don't think Ashara is dead, I think the suicide is a cover story, as she spirited Aegon away to Essos

[@asharadaynedragonblood1803]

Sarah P bahaha....it is not confirmed. It is fanservice, that is a different thing. Order of the green Hand THINK. Despite a lot of other fans. That is why they come up with why fantheories are not true. I love their channel!!! They look very in detail and use logic.

[@eggwaffle]

People still mind numbed by the show to the point where they can't consider actual theories based on the books? Shame.

[@LDW12887]

gayest intro ever