The Wall: Who? When? Why? w/Quinn's Ideas

[@TalkingThrones]

You & Quinn are like peanut butter and jelly. My favorite aspects of the story are all the mysteries of the north, like the Wall, Bloodraven, the White Walkers, children of the forest, the weirwoods, etc... so I throughly enjoyed this one.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Awww man so flattered. Thanks and glad you enjoyed it!

[@TalkingThrones]

@@DavidLightbringer Yes, sir!

[@thedeadnightking9975]

Yooo you’re the real TT. Didn’t know you watch LmL.

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

🎶Bran the Builder - Did he build it?🎶 🎶Bran the Builder - Sure, why not?🎶

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

"What if it's magic that's holding the Wall together? What if it all collapses once the magic fails?" You know, you guys might be onto another parallel here, namely the Doom of Valyria and how the magics keeping all the volcanoes docile there. Imagine another Doom scenario but this time with ice instead of fire.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Hey that’s really good!! I like it! Makes a lot of sense too... maybe the Black Gate weirwood face will just getting fucking tired one and be like “that’s it, I’m out, no one’s fed me any babies in like 5 centuries”

[@DavidLightbringer]

Hey that’s really good!! I like it! Makes a lot of sense too... maybe the Black Gate weirwood face will just getting fucking tired one and be like “that’s it, I’m out, no one’s fed me any babies in like 5 centuries”

[@DavidLightbringer]

Hey that’s really good!! I like it! Makes a lot of sense too... maybe the Black Gate weirwood face will just getting fucking tired one and be like “that’s it, I’m out, no one’s fed me any babies in like 5 centuries”

[@aidkik580]

No sorry magic didn't and wasn't keeping the volcanos dormant or we'd have heard of previous eruptions, it's more likely that the abundance of magic or "misuse" of magic in the area caused the eruptions otherwise it would've been a molten waste before they settled it

[@aubreyackermann8432]

@@aidkik580 even active volcanoes go decades between eruptions. During the time in-between, the land in the danger zone is incredibly fertile and appealing.

[@jonhauge-evaldsson783]

Jon beeing taken over by the Others or joining the Others, parallels him going over to the Wildlings. But remaining a brother of the Night's Watch at heart.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yes! He wears a sheepskin when he’s with the Others, and beyond making him a wolf is sheep’s clothing, sheep are used as Others symbols a lot.

[@jonhauge-evaldsson783]

Jon the turncloak. The skinchanger. The Wargking.

[@shaun4735]

I just don't see how Jon could become an Ice Zombie, He's dead at The Wall surrounded by Night's Watch, Wildlings and Melissandre. As soon as he opens his glowy eyes someone is gonna stab and/or burn him. Something big would have to be happening in order for him to wake up and start doing.... What Undead Jon is supposed to do? (Edit: Unless his reanimation/resurrection coincide with The Wall coming down. Then the NW have bigger problems to deal with.)

[@pat_fez]

@@shaun4735 I think the Others have already arrived as Jon is getting stabbed and that is why he only felt the cold...

[@deniserichards5555]

@@DavidLightbringer do you think there's a ice dragon in the wall

[@SingingSealRiana]

Oh my god, Quinn I love you! You are the first person who shares my believe, that Dany does not actualy wants the throne but is just blindly stumbeling after Viserys dream. She longs for safty and home, not power deep down and every step she takes towards the throne is another step towards never achieving her own dream. She would never be safe in kingslanding. All her efforts are towards a goal that will render her endlessly unhappy . . . . Her claiming the throne is chasing her brothers shaddow! I am convinced, no matter how strongly it gets beaten down on our head, she is not ment to rule . . . Or at least sit the iron throne. Seeking domination while having securety will destroy her if she will not change her course.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Totally agree, I keyed in on this in the “It Pleases Me to Hold Them Safe” video, which is the first in the “True Character of Daenerys Targaryen” series. It really is Viserys’s dream, it hers. She longs for home and safety, and gives it to others when she doesn’t have it herself.

[@callummellis3280]

I'm really digging the idea that The Wall was created by The Others, it just seems to make sense that the ice magic creatures made the big magic ice thing lol. . Whoever commented about it possibly being made to keep dragons south deserves a big pat on the back imo, that would make a lot of sense and could explain why they'd make something that doesn't allow themselves to pass, it could have been a willing 'we'll stay up here as long as they can't bother us' type of deal, for me it'd help explain more why Wildlings are north of the Wall with the Others opposed to the Wall being made to keep Others and Humans separate, they might not care that humans are north because they're not a threat without the dragons and their swords. . That leaves me wondering though why would they begin to stir at the start of AGOT when at this point there were no dragons and they were not under threat and this could possibly be answered by them being from/a part of the Weirwood. I believe Bloodraven tells Bran (when he has his vision of Ned Stark cleaning Ice) that the trees perceive time differently, so it's possible that they saw Dany's dragons (or at least the red comet heralding the dragons) before it actually happened and either didn't know it was the future or decided to act preemptively (I'd lean to the 2nd option), possibly to try find a new Night's King (aka Jon, shout out to your latest video) to prepare for the war that's to come. It could be the classic their actions to prevent/protect themselves from the future are actually what pushed in motion the war aka the Long Night that's to come... now I kinda feel bad for them, are the Others the good guys and Night's King Jon is going to get a mind-blowing POV chapter which changes everyone's perception? . No, probably not, I'm way out of my depth here but I had fun typing this, thanks for more great content.

[@autje1970]

Perhaps they can look into the future and see that the Wall will be coming down (moon meteors!), so they are getting ready to defend their lands. This will end up with The Others and their wights on one side, and Dany and her dragons and everyone else on the other, and nobody wants to attack first ;-).

[@sabrinakrisb4672]

Very good points! I dont think it's as simple as dragons hatching causing the others to rise up though. It has to be something bigger than that. Not saying you're argueing this, its just my thoughts. Dragons existed before and the WW/others weren't harassing humanity. I think its still a huge mystery of why exactly the others are reappearing and winter is coming.

[@callummellis3280]

@@sabrinakrisb4672 Yeah I'd have to agree it can't be as simple as the dragons returning, like you pointed out dragons still existed after the first Long Night in Essos and the Targ's brought them back to Westeros centuries ago, also even after they went 'extinct' there were still stories of them existing in the Shadow Lands to the far east though I'm not sure there is actually any proof for this. It could be that they saw their return in conjuncture with The Wall falling so knew the wards that would protect them from the dragons would fail, as long as The Wall stood they'd have no reason to worry in the past but seeing both new dragons returning and The Wall falling they began to stir. This really is just some tinfoil though, I'd say nice tinfoil but still tinfoil lol, it does lend itself to the balance between ice and fire theme though.

[@Pentagathusosaurus]

@@callummellis3280 wouldn't dragons be able to just fly around the wall though? It's not as if they're unable to cross open ocean.

[@callummellis3280]

@@Pentagathusosaurus Well..... erm, yeah I guess they could, but erm... damn lmao

[@stevehoward5582]

I have heard people talk about whether Jon Snow is The Prince That Was Promised but in the next breath discuss the fact that TPTWP is supposed to "Draw Light ringer from the flames" Mellis Andre obviously believes this cos she sets up that whole act for Stannis when he draws "Lightbringer" from the flames at the night fires... But if you think back... Lord Commander Mormon gives Longclaw to Jon after Jon saves him from Othor and Mormon finds Longclaw in his quarters after they have been gutted by fire. I know this isn't Jon literally drawing Lightbringer from flames himself but having inadvertently wrecked Mormont's rooms with fire and the fact Mormon even says he had forgotten about Longclaw until he was looking through the wreckage. couldn't we say Jon was responsible for "drawing the sword from the flames?"

[@BanesBasement]

Now this is a take I have not heard regarding Jon's potential to fulfill the prophecy... don't know if you came up with it, but that's totally my head canon now unless TWOW (and hopefully ADOS) comes out and explicitly proves otherwise. That's some symbolism to make LmL cream his pantaloons lol

[@ohhhmindy4380]

Sorry, I keep thinking of things as I watch the stream. Another thought is, why didn’t the children carve faces in the heart trees which look like children? Meaning, why aren’t the eyes described as unusually large and slitted rather than...just red eyes. If the trees were carved before men ever came to Westeros as claimed, why are their faces the faces of MEN? ✨✌🏻

[@brandonlambert9768]

Maybe the faces on the heart trees are the faces of the first person sacrificed/beheaded in front of them. Or do they all have the same face on them? If so maybe it's the first person to enter the weirwood network or be sacrificed in front of a heart tree.

[@cathsaigh2197]

Are they faces of men? They have eyes and a mouth, what in them is specifically mannish and not singerish?

[@ohhhmindy4380]

Cathsaigh well, a few things come to mind. For instance, the eyes are not described as overly large and slitted. Often the faces are described as long and gaunt like the Starks. And significantly, they have leaves in the shape of hands and not those with three fingers a thumb and claws. ✨✌🏻

[@K8theKind]

Melinda Murphy the faces change based on the last person to access the trees memories.

[@K8theKind]

Melinda Murphy it’s speculated that the reason the faces are gaunt etc is because the person most recently accessing the memories of the lot of the trees is Brynden Rivers, the three eyed raven.

[@keithbrandt9090]

Wish I was here for this live!! “THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A STATK IN WINTERFELL” always comes back to me when you talk about the others making the wall........

[@GoldenXBoots]

Rewatching this one because it is just so good. Love all the mysteries about the North. Such a mysterious place with many riddles and stories. Most of it lost to time and the memory of men. The North remembers.... But who, what!, are the ones doing the remembering?

[@ohhhmindy4380]

Also, for your Euron / Night’s King video, if you talk about Cersei as a parallel to the Night’s Queen, she has a line which reads, “A queen must have a consort. One who knows no fear.” And as we all know, the Night’s King is the only person characterized in such a manner. ✨✌🏻

[@DavidLightbringer]

Ooh nice, she has a fair amount of NQ action, yeah. Chiseled from ice in one early scene

[@ohhhmindy4380]

Yes! Also, consider the way the Night’s King got his Queen. He saw her and knowing no fear, caught her and loved her. If he was a Stark, he took her in the same way the wildlings take their mates. So...who are the original wildlings? Just First Men who’s traditions were eventually abandoned by those south of the Wall. Love the streams.

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

My boy Quinn has the Miles Davis look going.

[@DavidLightbringer]

that's a good call, and I've been turning him on to Miles a bunch lately too!

[@autje1970]

@@DavidLightbringer Keep him away from the heroin though...

[@davidzalewski8090]

ALL TIME FAVORITE MUSICIAN. 2nd is Jerry Garcia.

[@mattduke4359]

Quinn looks like a Mos Def clone

[@Leriehane]

not gonna lie I would bye a "MOON METEORS" or a "WEIRWOOD PASTE IS PEOPLE" shirt.

[@Tis_Herself]

Frannie yup! 💸💰💸💰

[@dancingdragon3]

Yes! Great idea. I’ll buy.

[@howardhavardramberg333]

Another great stream, and kudos to Quinn for his amazing book, I highly recommend it!

[@elvergalarga6016]

The other main thing that was never addressed on the show and I’m still not over is why now? Why did the white walkers suddenly return now after all this time? WHAT WAS THE REASON!!!

[@eren__morwen5947]

Im absolutely binging your videos for the last week. You are exactly what I've been searching for. Every video is so in depth, everytime amazing, interesting topics. thank you so much

[@Leah-xu2fd]

It was nice to see Quinn. Great addition to a video I was already pumped for. The wall is the biggest chekhov's gun thats ever been imagined in my opinion. Seriously fantastic. I was forced to venture to a kids birthday party, they are so loud tiny humans, and I sadly forgot how to "people" because of the sickness so this video was a god send. I was able to listen to you talking with Quinn and listen to a conversation I enjoyed while talking about the weather. Thanks for doing such good work.

[@chellybub]

I love the leylines theory for the wall location, maybe that's why the nightfort face is alive too... Though I imagine there is more to it than that. Graham Hancock went on to show some cool stuff about reused sacred sites. Like the great pyramid having a smaller version of the same temple in the basement essentially... And there's a famous temple in South East Asia, I think it might be Indonesia, where the ground penetrating radar just shows temple after temple after temple apparently. It's all kinda cool. Though I always felt like the Rhoynish water force field was a subtle hint to the kinds of magic employed in building the wall. Glad it was mentioned tbh 😊

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yep that’s exactly what I was thinking of!

[@gormonpeake6336]

The Icey background is looking very nice my guy

[@jlworrad]

I’m sure someone in fandom must have pointed this out before, but might ‘Night’s King’ be a play on ‘King’s Knight’ which is an opening move in chess? I don’t know enough about chess to suggest any significance to it however. From a brief google it seems to be a slightly high risk gambit but one that defines the board and that allows a lot of flexibility. Also, it’s a white move, which is symbolically icy. I suppose, if nothing else, it suggests the first move in a bigger, long term plan.

[@Nuklz1981]

I see Brann the builder as an architect that had the ideas that led to these great fortresses. He may have been working on more than one at a time. I think he was a brilliant mathematician and architect that knew of ways to build powerful lasting fortresses that magic made unprecedented in size and strength.

[@quotemusic5162]

I have a crackpot idea. Maybe The Wall and Storms End and the other warded structures were built to hedge against the fire-shadows that Azor Ahai was spawning in Westeros using a similar dark blood magic to Melisandre. Maybe the Night's Watch was originally formed to guard against Azor Ahai? That would explain why the Night's Watch oath is "watcher on the walls" plural. It could be that over time only the Watch faded away everywhere but the Wall. If the Night's Watch was originally founded to resist Azor Ahai, that would be consistent with the theory that Night's Queen might have been Nissa Nissa reanimated somehow in an attempt to right the wrongs that Azor Ahai was committing and get revenge for her murder. It would also fit with the idea that the wall was a collaboration between the humans, Children and Others in the wake of Azor Ahai's defeat. To get even more crackpot, maybe the source of the scalding water under Winterfell is Azor Ahai's remains or magical essence sealed away and the Starks spirits are meant to guard against his evil?

[@larryhinkle9390]

Something I have never seen anyone go deep into is Craster. This is one of my main issues with the books. How did Craster strike the bargain? With whom? Did they come to Craster or did he seek them out? How did the Others communicate with him if they just have high pitched noise for language. Why use Craster when there are Wildings and other barbarians closer to their realm. Who takes care of the babies until they are grown? Do they turn them into ice babies? Myabe you have addressed this in some vid but I'm just getting started on your content.

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

Ah damn, missed it by a couple of hours. Well, let me roll one up and settle in.

[@DavidLightbringer]

DO IT

[@starfanops307]

1:09:34 I remember reading about Yggdrassil shaking before Ragnarok, could have something to do with that since the weirwoods are inspired by Yggdrassil. Great stream btw

[@OfficialChrissums]

the wall being ice and having a base of fused stone is very "ice and fire" and we all know George loves that stuff. I kinda buy the idea that its designed to keep both the others and dragons from transgressing one another. Of course idk how that would work RE dragons since they could just fly out to sea and then back around. Maybe that will be attempted and the contingency plan for that could be Ice Dragons! It would make sense to me that Ice dragons cannot fly south as they are described as literal beings made of cold so maybe we will see dany trying to fly around the wall only to encounter an ice dragon!

[@DavidLightbringer]

No shortcuts baby, I like it

[@K8theKind]

I just can’t get enough of you and Quinn. Please never stahp!

[@lucashunt4172]

The Others and the the First Men teamed up to fight the real enemy. Them damn squishers. Froze em in their own watery holes and brought them up into the light.

[@Nemisis1509]

I wonder if anyone would like to crunch the numbers to see how much water is actually contained in the Wall - and just how much of Westeros would get wet if it melted. Once refrozen by the normal weather it would provide a slick, frozen sheet miles, maybe leagues long, that is to the advantage of the Others coming down from the far North (TWoW). Then, after the Long Night and spring returning to the North, suddenly you've got a whole bunch of boggy mud and sediment that will probably take very well to crops that maybe stretches as far down as The Last Hearth or even Deepwood Motte (ADoS). The true dream of spring may be for all that food, in an area maybe the size of the Reach, to finish growing so that all the armies that went North to fight the Others don't starve. After hearing the quote 'what was Aragorn's tax policy' I've started thinking about these things; and I'm not sure it's a good thing. XD

[@DavidLightbringer]

I wonder if ice melt explains the Neck swamp? Your comments got me thinking

[@aidkik580]

Omfg YYYEEAHH MY ...BRUTHA 1:06:30 lml takes a rip!

[@i.d.k..ijustgothere1260]

When you talk about the Others building the wall it makes me think of that line in Blood and fire. When Good Queen Alysanne tries to fly her dragon north of the wall and it will NOT go. She's very unnerved by it. Maybe they did built the wall to keep Dragon Riders and Men Out after being drivin to the ends of the earth. (maybe after a failed invasion?)

[@mirandastieber5118]

I enjoy both of your channels separately a lot, but I LOVE these live discussions you two have with each other! I've been sick the last week and found you guys a few days ago and have now watched almost all your GOT videos (Quinn as well)! Keep up the hard work! You guys deserve so many more subscribers! Ps I'm SO excited for winds of winter prediction: rickon!!!!

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah I really want to do that one :)

[@dacrow88]

Regarding the caves under the Wall - the books already mention a cave system that leads from one side to the other. This is where Ygritte talks about Gendel

[@guineveregreenstones9977]

Wormways? Winter fell crypts?

[@faffy515]

Oh! I have only seen more recent videos so far. This background is quite nice as well! And I really would like to see the answer for these questions about the wall. First day as a member! So happy!

[@DavidLightbringer]

thank you!

[@adamlewis9597]

Another wicked stream lml. For all us waiting for WoW please keep up the good work....

[@sommer8337]

Like our Quaking Aspen’s in Utah…. I think of weirwoods much like that. Where they sprout up off the roots and are all one organism.

[@autje1970]

Great discussion! I'm inclined to think The Others built the Wall, or were at least involved in it, in part because it keeps dragons south of it. History is written by the victors, so "We built it to keep The Others out," or so the Westerosi/humans say. But it could just as easily be an Others defense mechanism. It is made of ice, for one. Could be that they were stirred to come alive when Jon was born (a magical result of ice and fire bonding), and they already know that at some point their wall is coming down. So, time to play defense. Children of the Forest are also somehow involved. They're evil.

[@bassanimation]

What if the blue heart Dany sees in the HOTU is the wall, and the figures clamboring at her are human beings locked in the wall to keep it powered...like ice slaves. Y'all are blowing my mind though, seriously. I can't wait to find out what the deal is with that thing!

[@amynurss1375]

We should just have a big Zoom meeting about this, the Nightfort and other theories sometime.

[@LSImortal]

Just another HBO fault: how come that Benjen can’t cross the wall but Beric can?

[@Blastanker]

Are you being serious

[@moodian226]

My only reasoning for the Targaryens not being involved in the building of the Wall is my respect for the “ice” part of A Song of Fire and Ice. The Starks are just as important as the Targaryens to GRRM, we just don’t an “Ice and Honor” to give us backstory like “Fire and Blood” has.

[@josephdavis2198]

The Horn of Joruman has a correlation to the walls of Jericho, that could link to both the giants and the wall collapsing. If you look at the more recent studies, a massive wall that once protect the city did fall from an earthquake.

[@christophertracy4377]

The magic was put into its foundations. What I want 2 know is how long ago were the 19 castles built? In Fire and Blood, Queen Allysane wanted 2 fly North of the Wall but her dragon wouldn't go! The show did a disservice by lessening the fantasy element! Ex Stoneheart, Azor Ahai, the Valonqar, etc.

[@jojoladydayne7311]

I think the wall may well have been a joint effort between both sides. We know that GRRM is a fan of Robert Frost's Ice & Fire Poem, well he also wrote a poem called 'Mending Wall' - it's pretty telling I think. ----------------------------------------------------- Something there is that doesn't love a wall, That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it, And spills the upper boulders in the sun; And makes gaps even two can pass abreast. The work of hunters is another thing: I have come after them and made repair Where they have left not one stone on a stone, But they would have the rabbit out of hiding, To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean, No one has seen them made or heard them made, But at spring mending-time we find them there. I let my neighbor know beyond the hill; And on a day we meet to walk the line And set the wall between us once again. We keep the wall between us as we go. To each the boulders that have fallen to each. And some are loaves and some so nearly balls We have to use a spell to make them balance: ‘Stay where you are until our backs are turned!’ We wear our fingers rough with handling them. Oh, just another kind of out-door game, One on a side. It comes to little more: There where it is we do not need the wall: He is all pine and I am apple orchard. My apple trees will never get across And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him. He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.’ Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder If I could put a notion in his head: 'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it Where there are cows? But here there are no cows. Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. Something there is that doesn't love a wall, That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him, But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather He said it for himself. I see him there Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. He moves in darkness as it seems to me, Not of woods only and the shade of trees. He will not go behind his father's saying, And he likes having thought of it so well He says again, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.’ ------------------------------------------------------- Couple of those lines make you think - right? 🤔

[@jojoladydayne7311]

I obviously wrote this comment before the superchat came up 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@jojoladydayne7311]

The Fire Mages kept the 14 flames alive in Valyria so why not Ice Magicians keeping the Wall up 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@jojoladydayne7311]

The idea of keeping the dragons out supports the theory that both sides were responsible for building the wall 👍

[@DavidLightbringer]

No thank you, I needed the whole thing! Yeah, it’s a good thematic encapsulation of how a wall affects society. Also, the elves, haha.

[@countravid3768]

It is no secret that George loves English History the Wall is in inspiration of the real world Hadrians wall, but there is also another wall in English History the Antonine Wall, which leaves me to suspect that there is a greater wall between the land of always winter and the Nights Watch wall. or perhaps at the end of the story another wall is being constructed by Bran at the Neck or further North. George is also in love with monsters and Horror, like the Cthulu Mythos the Undying being immortal vampires that see visions of the future, but also the Children of the forest, in there Weirwood net, but since they are restricted in movement they look for an avatar to wander the earth. The others are like the children whether they were men turned into monsters in the first wars between men and the children they could also be another race of Children or something else entirely. They have a powerful psychic net much like the children only in the dead, and their ruler could be the Heart of Winter, and his Avatar the night King. George is a big fan of Tolkiens the Lord of The rings, and I do not doubt that he has made his version of the battles of Dagorlad, the Black gates and the battle of Orodruin (mountdoom) with many great heroes dying in the battles, much like the companions of the last hero, long ago. in this version I do not doubt that the last hero destroyed the Night king, or the Heart of Winter, but then was seduced by the chance of getting the powers of a god, becoming either the night King or the Heart of Winter, Georges version of Isildur becoming the Dark Lord.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Great stuff man. I’m on the same page with the heavy LOTR parallels; have checked out my podcast episode called “The Stark that Brings the Dawn,” or “Great Empire of the Dawn: Westeros”? I’ve discussed some of the many LOTR parallels there; mostly the Numenor / Dayne stuff and meteor sword ideas. Cheers man don’t be a stranger

[@countravid3768]

​@@DavidLightbringer I will definitely have to watch those, but only after I finish this stream I will be chowing down on some leftover Jojen Paste while I'm watching.

[@fluencer]

I would love Moon Meteor creation or Moons of Ice and Fire on a t-shirt

[@neutrinobuddy]

Idk if you guys mention this later in the stream, but the wall being referred to as an ice dragon might also, alongside thematic comparisons, be in reference to the way it snakes across the horizon. I think in one of Jon's early chapters it mentions something like that

[@therunningman_]

Thanks for the great live stream!!

[@DavidLightbringer]

Any time!

[@maxmanly3122]

amazing to hear you're watch The OA. still think it's one of the best shows available. lots of guts to do a story like it

[@RogueXV]

for anyone curious at 1:22:25 Modern bows have a max range of 300 to 400 yards or 900 to 1200 feet, but bows of the medieval ages had a max range of 40 yards or 120 feet.

[@juanlove1980]

Question about the Trees them selves: Something I don’t believe I heard discussed... is it possible to plant or for more Weirwood trees to grow in Westeros? Or are there a finite number of Heart trees? Seems like the CotF could/should have magic-ed up more trees during or after their wars with the first men/andals .

[@lumbdame]

The COTF actually communicate with the trees themselves. In the Bran chapter when they are following Leaf into the cave, she is telling the tree to make way for them using her torch and Bran sees these roots shift and create a path where there was none. This opens up so many possibilities... manipulating the earth itself. (Valyria, Arm of Dorne)

[@TobeWilsonNetwork]

In my mind the black gate looks like it’s an early Steamboat Willie-era animation, while everything else in the world is live-action. 39:55 maybe you were thinking of “Stop, collaborate, and listen… *ICE* is back with a grand new edition” LML and Quinn have GOT TO start talking about the mythical astronomy links to Vanilla Ice!

[@kashikoicat]

Something you guys said about the Others having to bring down the Wall... We've been calling people like Beric and Lady Stoneheart "fire wights." But they have agency. They're not being skinchanged in death the way the Others seem to do to corpses. Maybe Beric and Lady Stoneheart and Melisandre are actually more like "fire Others." And maybe the same way that the "fire Others" seem locked onto their last goal in life is how we should interpret the Others. This could also explain a bit of Mel's fervency around Azor Ahai. Maybe at some point, she died (or was even sacrificed) in service to the Red Priesthood and Azor Ahai, and came back a fire Other, with a singular goal in mind (although she does seem much more complicated than Beric, but Beric died and returned several times and degraded a bit with each). This obviously might tie a bit into Jon's future plots, too.

[@davidboardman1817]

In the beginning of Game of Thrones Ned says “The cold is in my blood”

[@labang1174]

Not saying it's the case but what if The Others built the wall as a territory/invasion starting point into Westoros from the Land of Always Winter and lost it during The War for the Dawn. Similar to Hadrians Wall during the Roman invasion of Britian.

[@Luke-nn4pm]

George has also said the wall was inspired by Hadrian’s wall. Really cool idea

[@williamwhitfield6225]

Actually a good point and a good theory, and their invading to take control of the Wierwood net back.

[@Gabeslogic]

Missed the livestream but always fun to watch after the fact! Love the reiteration and condensation of the older podcasts!

[@legendofmirr]

Do you think that bran being the night king is actually meant to happen and the show decided to go a different route to what george is going to. It seemed like they had all the setup, they constantly showed off brans abilities and gave us the vision of the night king being made, showed us the hodor thing which let us know bran can affect the past, the book talks about how bran basically forced hodors conciousness to cower away basically taking the driving seat.... It really seems like it was supposed to lead to bran being forced in a moment of desperation to go back in time and try to stop the creation of the night king and being stuck inside that guys head when the dragonglass went in, thus making bran the night king or first white walker. That would tie everything together, and give credence to showing us the bran hodor future time link via warging. It seems like it would give everything in the story a purpose. His fall enthasised his mortality and thats what triggered the beggining. That would explain the night king or first white walkers motivation and why hes acting now, he needs to touch bran to absorb him into the conciousness and take away his mortality, because if he dies there conciousness dies and the night king(brans conciousness warped over thousands of years) dies with him. Maybe he needs to battle with destiny to stop a time loop from happening getting to bran before he can make the same mistake he actually made and warging the guy that became the night king once again, repeating the cycle..... I know it sounds weird but the more you think about it the more you realise its a really good take on the muchly negative cliche of timetravel related narratives. Its one that can actually sit right with me and is hard to create an obvious parradox, but can all be rectified by absorbing himself into himself because then it doesnt matter as the two conciousnesses that are seamingly co existing become one. Remerging himself with himself rather than creating himself via trying to stop himself............. That might be hard to follow and be a bit rambly but i think you know what im getting at its probably the only beautiful way ive ever known that time travel can be done via conciousness and not via scientifical devices that are hard for us to believe in. BUT Alas if i go by the show nothing means anything and answers we shall not have.................. Stopped paying attention to the asoiaf communities for a while because the show deflated me, so much hope and expectation and theory crafting felt like it took a giant punch in the face need winds so badly . Glad to be back watching tho, although now i can only bring myself to watch certain channels quinn and lml deffinitely being part of that small few.

[@lolo1625]

Thank you for your work

[@jojoladydayne7311]

Grrm's request for an icy version of the Melissandre figurine supports the theory that might flip to Icy - but I agree that she's just a powerful magician that can do any magic with any element she just doesn't know it yet.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yeah this idea makes more sense as you think about it... Only thing is that Mel isn’t Just channeling magic, she’s transforming herself into an entity that is powered by fire magic. So there would have to be a flip, where she becomes powered by ice magic instead. Not sure somebody could channel both at the same time

[@williamwhitfield6225]

@@DavidLightbringer Possibly Azor Ahai channeled both, brought them together with in a violent magically clash between the two parallels fire and ice. Azor Ahai is from the far east land of the long summer. Possibly from the Great Empire, possibly a dragon rider, possibly the first dragon rider. Who somehow invades the Wierwood net and becomes a skin changer/Warg/ greenseer/ dragon riding crazy powerful son of a bitch. Who fucked with nature and created a disturbance that has thrown the seasons out of wack. And the others are simply trying to restore the balance of thing and get men and possibly the children out of the Wierwood net?

[@williamwhitfield6225]

@@DavidLightbringer Also worth noting, magical beings have very specific eye colors. Greenseers are said to be marked with eyes as red as the sun, or eyes a dark green like moss. Our number symbolism tells us the most important things come in 3’s. And the colors red, green, and blue are important. Red eyes, green eyes, anddddddddddd blue eyes. Fire, earth, and wind (wind being winter and icy), Azor Ahai, the children, and the others are all connected.

[@damienblackfyre9965]

Another great video! Gotta love the Quinn cameos.👍

[@kayleesi_tarveryen856]

Much love to you and Quinn! I just wanted to add onto your Shannara comment by saying that it reminded me of something you talked about in one of your old podcasts about the Weirwoods being described as male above the ground and female below ground and that there is another magical tree in the Shannara series called the Tannequil (I think I spelled it right but might be wrong) which is male above the ground and female below. Which of course should remind us of how the dragons are both male and female (gender fluid). I think GRRM has fun playing with genders and we could totally see more errors in prophecy/history based on gender swaps like as in the first Faceless Man being a woman, probably a daughter of House Targaryen 🖤🔥 and how the Other's have a Mother the Night's Queen instead of the Night's King like in the show. I think of it as his "No living man can kill him" "but I am no Man" LOTR moment.

[@kevj4584]

Have you ever thought about the possibility that the orientation of the world map is actually upside down? I've been thinking about that recently, and the idea that perhaps Westeros is actually East, and Essos is actually west. How that would impact the story...I have no clue haha. It just seems like the type of little trick George would use, since nobody has ever (to my knowledge) questioned the literal directions of the world.

[@soxpeewee]

Maybe the poles are swapping and the others need to head south.

[@tracymetherell8744]

I love the idea of The Wall being built on a natural barrier or magical spot. That there is power there which is preexisting. As Melisandre says it is one of the “hinges of the world”

[@zwbruno90]

Brandon The Builder learned “the language” of the children of the forest... the children of the forest speak in song in The True Tongue, “their voices as pure as winter air”... A Song of Ice & Fire... 🤔

[@MagnaMater2]

What I liked best about the 'Maiden Made of Light' is, that this sentence in the World-Book is borrowed, because 'Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world' is just what Astraia ( www.theoi.com/Titan/Astraia.html ) did at the end of the Bronze-Age according to Ovidius: victa iacet pietas, et virgo caede madentis ultima caelestum terras Astraea reliquit.

[@turkturkleton2671]

You guys are great together

[@salweezy]

I would wear a shirt that said MYTHHEAD on it. Anyone else?

[@dreamway9]

1:06:43 This is what I appreciate about Quinn and LML- they tend to notice what has been confirmed or not, and that their ideas are speculation rather than 'the' truth. I stopped watching one content creator recently because their language set my teeth on edge every time they said 'such and such is this way' when it was simply their own speculation. Thank you for being concise for folks like me.

[@andrzejkopalnia]

I love these videos. If anything, this is the joy of Georges creation. When this series never fully ends, yours, Quins and Alt+Shift+Xs Videos at least have made it a helluva ride! I thank you so much for sharing these ideas with the world. And I am still astonished by my anticipation for your yet-to-come Novel! Thanks a bunch, L!!!

[@mall1138]

You two have a really good back and forth. Thanks for the content

[@angusquinlan646]

Someone's been hitting the wierwood, look how hard this guy's greenseeing 😂😂😂 its 420 somewhere in planetos 😂😂😂 loving it

[@Tony-jw8vj]

Danny describes rolling green hills outside of the house with the red door. How big is this garden?

[@davidzalewski8090]

I always wonder what the childhood of an Other is like. Kind of a humorous thought to me

[@thomasboyd1402]

Little something that crossed my mind listening to you guys talking about roots and interconnected caves and all that.. I seem to remember some 'history' mentioning that the last hero found the children in their hidden tree cities.. Even though the children did not build anything, those caves sure are expansive enough to be considered cities.. And they're certainly hidden.. Not much point to it, just a random thought, a piece of the puzzle falling into place, albeit far away from the central picture..

[@arbiterskiss6692]

47:00 I think man was always allowed north of the Wall. There have been Wildings up north about the time the Wall was built, the Others have not raised a fuss until now. I think being north of the Wall was a privilege, or came with responsibilities which have been neglected.

[@jgui93]

Kind out-of-topic, but do you think is there a chance of the song "Brave Danny Flint" has something to do with the Night's Queen? Even though Martin gives us no lyrics, we know the song is about a girl who disguised herself as a boy to join the Night's Watch but ended up raped and murdered by the black brothers. In some versions of the song *her ghost still walks the Nightfort*. Dunno if makes sense, but someone who described as " his corpse queen" and with "white skin" could be referred to as a "ghost" (pale shadow), no?

[@polarisator9892]

How about this?: The Others made the wall, to keep the weirwoods south. The CotF and the FM conquered it --> long night. The Others were driven to the lands of allways winter and the CotF settled beyond the wall and expanded the WWN there. Over time human people went there too --> wildlings

[@kashikoicat]

Re the weirwoods being a neural net where each tree is a node: the trees were being cut down. Maybe humans and singers joining the net help supplement that loss and fees that neural net (like the original idea behind the matrix). However, humans are different than trees, so their inclusion necessarily changes the nature of the weirwood mind

[@jessicafluffykins3733]

I was thinking. The children don't reproduce quickly, unlike man. If the 13th lord commander and Nights Queen were making babies to sacrifice, could she reproduce quicker? After all, 13 years of baby making isn't really a lot. Even if they had pregnancies with multiple babies. Considering Others raise the dead, maybe Nights Queen could convert premature babies, therefore reproducing quicker? Did they have a way of making all the offspring male (intentional or not)? If female babies were made, would they give nights queen an heir? If you class her like a Queen Bee with a colony, at some point they have to produce females. Maybe she can only create a female heir by sacrificing herself. What if at the end of their reign on the wall, she was sacrificed nisa nisa style? Would love more in depth thoughts about what the 13th commander and NQ could have achieved in such a short time frame. Love you vids.

[@LNGD_46]

Here's my take. If the Starks (Brandon the Builder) are really the descendants of Others (Winter is coming), then they would somewhat capable of doing ice magic. And I believe the Night's Watch (Also Nightfort) was formed way way before the Wall was ever built.

[@samuelsilva8364]

This will come down to Shingeki no Kyojin stuff, giants LITERALLY made the wall!

[@Nil.0]

I always thought fused stone structures were built by man, then dragon fire and spells altered them. For the wall, I think men built two stone walls, filled it with water, and Bran the Builder used an ice dragon to freeze the wall and removed the stone. Or an ice dragon's breath can transmute stone to ice.

[@xavier84623]

brandon def had an understanding of ice magic, and maybe knowledge about the great other himself. runes and wards imbedded deep in stone and ice has a very cold magic feel to it.

[@hotimportknight]

Why isn't there a weir wood grove south of the wall though? I always thought it was strange they had to go north of the wall to enemy territory to white tree to preform the initiation for anyone that follows the old gods to join the Nights Watch... Almost every castle had at least a tree, even in the south in the past, how could Castle Black not have a gods wood?

[@ohhhmindy4380]

I’ve wondered the same. I’ve wondered more at Mormont’s statement that they have no need of a godswood there. Absurd considering the majority of men joining historically were northerners.

[@covenawhite4855]

The Andals may have destroyed the Weir Woods

[@aidkik580]

Shit p.s.s man around 1:04 the red door was her "safe" place cuz it's where she hid out with her brother after the fall of house targaryan in westerose, it's a place she "has" been cuz the place had a red door.

[@WeesanTV]

i'm paused at 41:56 in the video. "the horn of winter = a dragon must have 3 heads" is something I said out loud, in response to Quinn saying along the lines of why does the horn of winter even exist? I'm answering that with "the dragon must have 3 heads, the pact must have 3 parties."

[@JoeSnoe126]

woah so maybe the Horn of Joramun is like a hollowed petrified root and like dragonbinder (probably a hollowed petrified dragon bone), when sounded it could instigate the frequency of vibrations needed for the Weirwoods to start shaking the earth. Weirwoodbinder lol because how is The Wall supposed to hear the horn sounded all the way in Old Town? It would need a type of network spanning all of Westeros, and something from that original network to activate it. I wonder if blowing it in The Eyrie would do anything hmmmm or perhaps it was first blown in The Eyrie and the aftermath left it so Weirwoods don't like growing there. Like the man who burned up after blowing Dragonbinder, the weirdwoods from the land dried up

[@AWW8472]

It is possible to shoot arrows to the top of the Wall at 700ish feet high. They'd have to go higher to reach any piercing force at a downward trajectory. Magic bows!

[@DavidLightbringer]

i don' think so no, it's a mistake by Martin that he's admitted to, making the Wall too tall

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

I've read that the most powerful old English and Welsh longbows could reach distances horizontally up to 900 to 1000 feet (I've even read that 400 yards, or 1200 feet, could be achieved, though I don't know how accurate that is) ...though that would be with the enormous, 150 lb draw yew longbows. But yeah, I doubt that even those could shoot more than maybe half the height of the wall. One saying I've always liked--from Wales, where my ancestors were for centuries lords of a 200-room hall, married the daughters and granddaughters of the Princes of Gwynedd, Powys, and whose fortunes rose again with the Tudors, so the fact that ASOIAF was partly based on the War of the Roses always got me hyped up--is "To train a longbowman, first, start with his grandfather..."

[@gimpalopagus]

An English War Bow has the potential range of between 500ft to 700ft, though because that is top end estimates, accuracy and penetrative power would be severely limited. Saying that, Grrm could potentially argue that his universe holds a more powerful bow, making the wildlings arrow attacks on the top of the wall slightly less implausible at least.

[@DavidLightbringer]

It is so argued, let the record show

[@roders125]

Thank you

[@Manwendlil]

Edric Snowbeard lived for a very long time, hence the sobriquet "Snowbeard"

[@lucashunt4172]

100% down with Quinn’s idea of the Weirwoods being one connected organism.

[@d.m.collins1501]

Maybe The Red Door™ is actually inspired by "Red Chair Fadeaway?" Martin is a huge fan of 60s psychedelic bands, and though I have never yet found a quote where he describes loving the 60's version of the Bee Gees, the song is SO evocative of Daeny's memories, right down to the lemon tree: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2WnpmptoNWdqdE

[@d.m.collins1501]

Lyrics: Red chair fade away Bring back memories Think of something nice Fragrant lemon trees I can feel the speaking sky I don't want to know It's filling up the air Grandpa's fairy tale Red chair round the fire Rainbows all the time We're all going higher I can feel the speaking sky I don't want to know It's filling up the air Red chair fade away [Repeat: x5] Bring back memories Think of something nice Fragrant lemon trees I can feel the speaking sky I don't want to know It's filling up the air Red chair fade away Red chair fade away

[@shoresofpatmos]

That would be nerdy as hell

[@andrzejkopalnia]

12k people watched, not even 900 upvoted?! Come on, folks!

[@Nuklz1981]

Did Arya see Robb's death since she was so close geographically? I love and respect you LML and Quinn also, be well friends ,thanx for the best content on KZbin

[@douglasstewart4790]

1:51:15 My theory is that face was the father who turned his son in who, along with his fellow deserters were sealed into the ice, who chose the same fate for himself. There are dead souls in the ice of the wall...

[@calikesh6475]

Great stream my dude 🤙🏼 Not related to The Wall creation or anything.. but how would you feel about Bowen Marsh and his Nights Watch mutineers using the winding stairs at Castle Black as high ground to fight the Wildlings after Jon’s stabbing. Then Bowen and his crew flee on top The Wall to the Night Fort and set up camp Then Wolfman Jon gets resurrected and becomes “The thing that came in the night” or “mad ax” and we get a solo chapter of Jon getting revenge on his brothers who killed him at the Night Fort?? 🥶

[@aidkik580]

1:22:00 dont worry guys none of the arrows actually reach the top plus dont forget that "the height of the wall changed with the contours of the land"

[@warpedwhimsical]

I don’t think the horn of winter necessarily binds the others, instead I think the others want to obtain it to destroy the wall. Maybe they have some mystical connection to the magic of the horn and could sense it being blown and that’s why they showed up, but I don’t think it controls them or anything