The Devastating Destruction of the Human Race | The Killing Star

[@QuinnsIdeas]

Oh the Humnanity! Sorry guys, even I make typos sometimes 🤷‍♂️

[@Tepalus]

It shows you are still human. Or at least an A.I. that admits its mistakes. :D Also, I wanted to ask if you could review books without spoilers? Or at least keep your reviews spoiler free for the first part? I had to pause some of your previous videos because I didn't want to get spoilerd. I don't want to sound rude or anything but it may be a consideration for the future. :) (I even bought and listened to all Three Body Problem Audiobooks before finishing your videos on them so I could understand what you were talking about) Greetings from Switzerland :)

[@SirSpence99]

@@Tepalus *humnan

[@giladpellaeon1691]

Oh the Cephalopodity! 😁 Always like the concept explorations you do in your vids and was wondering if you have read any Terry Pratchett, either his Discworld series or the Long Earth series he wrote with Stephen Baxter. I highly recommend both if you haven't and if you have I would be interested in your take on some of the concepts within the many novels. He was a very talented author and sorely missed. GNU

[@snawsomes]

Wet bulb will get us first. Good video good sir.

[@wemusthavechannelstocommen619]

it gets humnanious sometimes. no worries.

[@christopherlin2390]

Someone suggested this book to Quinn under one of his video’s comment section, and Quinn actually went and read the book, what a great creator that listens to his fans.

[@tuckernutter]

Holy shit I remember that comment, too, wtf

[@shayneoneill1506]

I think it might have been me. I'm not sure. I've been shouting from the rooftops about this lost classic for a long time. And yeah, Quinns the best.

[@wayfaringman8418]

I know I've recommended it before. A dark tale.

[@jaykelley103]

Sycophantic

[@unknownpwn428]

Sluuuuuuuuurrrrp *glurk* *glurk* *glurk* *wikka* *wikka* *wikka* *grrrhhhaaarrrffff* Chug chug chug chug Splurt splurt chug splurt

[@titanicexplorer3861]

Thank you to all who remember this book. I loved working with George Zebrowski and we still occasionally publish "Futures" thought experiments in the British journal, Nature. Oddly, I was actually at the Titanic in a submersible when the whole world changed above, on 9/11. (Just as happened to a main character, at the Titanic, in the novel.) My family was hit directly during the attacks, and after working forensic archaeology in WTC ruins, I gradually became more reclusive. Though still working closely with James Cameron, and despite a full research schedule, I've managed to write successful novels under pen names. Zebrowski is one of the great thinkers I have known (and that's saying a lot). Thank you again. Omoiyari. - Charles Pellegrino

[@memberofthehardright]

There's so much about Killing Star that I enjoyed. Inspite of it's tragic storyline, (like the Titanic's) in the end our will to endure may deliver us if we clear the upcoming Social/Technical bottlenecks we are currently dealing with...

[@plSzq1]

It was really good read. Thanks for you guys for writing that story.

[@titanicexplorer3861]

Glad you enjoyed. Much of my non-fiction and fiction ties in with "The Killing Star," including a trilogy I wrote under the pen name of Bill Schutt and J.R. Finch (from Harper) and a forthcoming non-fiction book about the science behind Avatar. A tie-in sequel has also recently been completed. See you later, Omoiyari - Charles Pellegrino@@memberofthehardright

[@danielplainview8759]

This dude just sold an audiobook for you. Will enjoy listening at work tomorrow.

[@tammyhenson8823]

I look forward to reading this.

[@AscendantStoic]

I like how this book and the Three Body Problem basically take the idea of Lovecraftian existential horror and successfully translate it into Sci-Fi, managing to maintain the existential dread and feelings of despair and helplessness without using eldritch gods, instead using the universe itself and other intelligent species as the unknown "other".

[@granudisimo]

Any sufficiently advanced technology could get indistinguishable from magic, and so any sufficiently advanced species could get indistinguishable from eldritch gods. I mean, Tri Solarans didn't sabotage our advancements by sabotaging experiments directly, but by straight up making local changes to our very laws of physics.

[@IsaacKuo]

Okay, but isn't Lovecraft already science fiction? The eldritch gods and other creatures are aliens. The fact that they have bizarre non-euclidean physics and such merely gives us a glimpse that what we think we know about the physics of the universe is vastly outweighed by what we don't know.

[@granudisimo]

@@IsaacKuo Lovecraft meets C. Clarke. It's just that we have a better understanding of physics, or so at least when compared with a hundred years ago. But yeah, reminder you're so correct on that we still got a lot to learn, that the best novel about the subject is named after a famously unresolved physics problem.

[@meatybtz]

Except existential dread really isn't what lovecraftian horror is about. The horror comes from the normal observer observing the "enlightened". The real horror is becoming enlightened and then becoming human again. The best description I ever read was described as taking an ant from it's colony and making it able to understand, think, and learn/know, as a man knows, then return it to being an ant. The ant loses everything except some kind of echo, a maddening echo, lingering in the mind, a hunger for a fruit forever lost to you. Great and terrible. You can't peg the deific beings in lovecraft as "evil", nor "good". Such labels are beneath them and irrelevant creations of a limited, laughable, human perspective. Read his works with that in mind and you might even start to feel a tingling, like something you've forgotten, but there, like a mote in your eye, forever out of reach, beyond even the ability to characterize, conceptualize, but there. Enjoy the dread, the horror, of it eating you from inside, a hunger you cannot fill, a memory ever out of reach, an understanding beyond you... gnawing on you, tingling.. in the back of your mind... eating you from within.

[@ShirleyTimple]

Agreed. Big fan of Lovecraft but I'd never read true cosmic horror until Cixin Liu.

[@Silmeris]

You absolutely need to read Blindsight by Peter Watts- it touches on a lot of these themes as well but in a very different light. Instead of those 3 rules outlined, they used the term "Technology implies belligerence", implying that if if a race is technologically advanced, they must by definition be willing to sculpt, destroy, or twist the world around them to suit their needs. "Technology is a stunted thing in benign environments, it never thrived in any culture gripped by belief in natural harmony. Why invent fusion reactors if your climate is comfortable, if your food is abundant? Why build fortresses if you have no enemies? Why force change upon a world that poses no threat?" It's an absolutely incredible book with a number of incredibly hard-hitting themes, and incredibly unique among all scifi I've ever read.

[@kennethyu3950]

Massive upvote to this. I think Blindsight is one of the best examples of these types of books. Also interesting because it gives humanity some very powerful, terrifying tools of their own. (We get hyperintelligent vampires) (Also, no, as funny as that sounds, it's not even slightly hokey.)

[@Silmeris]

@@kennethyu3950 Sarasti is such a great character, honestly. It's wild Watts made them work so well in his universe, like Valerie from Echopraxia

[@kennethyu3950]

@@Silmeris Yes. I'm not as much a fan of Echopraxia as I am of Blindsight, but Echo did a FANTASTIC job of fleshing out exactly how next-level terrifying the vampires are.

[@TheBayzent]

I mean, why would you need to develop technology if you didn't need to sculpt nature to better suit your species?

[@changsangma1915]

The whys/dos and donts of intelligent species and technology dependence is fun to contemplate for a moment but eventually you have to snap back to the human reality. Why have the technology (internet) to interact with people on the other side of the world to place your thoughts/expression/views when you can simply bundle around a camp fire with your families & buddies?!

[@Juancilra]

I read this several years ago and it really stuck with me. Sci-Fi as a genre is full of dystopias and apocalypses. You get used to it and the mediocre stories often blend together in memory since the tropes become repetitive. But this one was really distinctive and uniquely horrifying for me. The destruction is so sudden and ruthless.

[@kissthesky40]

As long as there are leftists there will always be strife, wickedness snd war.

[@DeathBYDesign666]

Sudden and ruthless is also another way to describe quick and painless. I'm sure that method is preferable to other slower methods of alien invasion. It's just one minute we're here the next just vapor in an instant, I'm sure there was very little if no pain. That's one way you could look at it and be greatful for.

[@nothuman3083]

There's one where we are bred in the billions to wage wars and tend to cruel uncaring alien masters. A race of slaves sent to the pits of slaughter, the hellish mines, factories. The aliens refined as they where would violate us in the traditional sense but so much worse. They would spin DNA of the human population for more niche rolls as the bottom caste of society, they would do this on those outside the womb the process was painful. Over generations our kind was turned into countless species around the stars in binded misery of servitude. We were cogs in machine we wished to be separated, we become the full machine of our subjection. Then we where the empire and our subjection was ended in genocide, and the machine died. We sit in the ruins hiding from a galaxy that at best sees us as something to remove, or cogs for their new machine of subjection. It was with a heavy heart we returned to our prison us our own subjectors, we rebuilt the machine of misery and cruelty. We survived for what purpose but spite, and now we reap the sorrows of thousands of stars. We know nothing else xeno, we have tired everything and found no other solution but this. This solution always humanity to surive in a cruel universe, as the cogs turn cruelly on those on top, it will still be a human species as the new overlords. It's in your destruction we spare you, and find salvation.

[@Ebalosus]

Even though it’s dated, I appreciate the level of thought that went into everything present to explain what happened and why. Certainly a lot more plausible an alien invasion than coming here to steal our water or women, eh?

[@agustinlespada4426]

Do you have a digital copy somewere??

[@BoisegangGaming]

**EDIT: For those of you who are going to respond to this, please at least read the comments thread before posting to see if what you’re about to say has already been said. I appreciate that in advance.** The biggest issue I have with the concept of the dark forest is primarily this: life tolerates life, as long as it is convenient. Mutual benefit, symbiosis, and mutualism are seen in nature, and is the only reason life as we know it exists. When one of our cells decides to go single-celled in its priorities, we call that cancer. Cancer always results in the death of the host, or the death of the cell before the host, but the end result is the same: the attempt to gather resources for itself is self-destructive. How do civilizations form? Because the cost-benefit of sacrificing immediate individual success for the success of future generations is a successful strategy. Some lifeforms have gone so far to develop eusociality, which is this strategy taken to the extreme. Additionally, do modern societies go around genociding undeveloped civilizations because they might be a threat in the future? Do animals kill off every single entity that might be a threat to their future? No. Because even with unlimited resources, there is still a single resource that is not unlimited: time. A civilization that will destroy anything it encounters is not going to develop allies. Furthermore, other civilizations will observe this hostility and belligerence, and may in fact pool together resources to combat them. Defensive alliances of all forms occur because of this principle. Therefore, the idea that life will always try to eliminate competition through violence and destruction is laughably self-destructive, because there are other ways of eliminating competition: primarily, cooperation. The idea that it is only "logical" to destroy other lifeforms is logic in a vacuum, which does not hold up to the nuances of reality.

[@jamesclapp6832]

Nobody wants to read about interstellar peace, love and understanding.

[@BoisegangGaming]

@@jamesclapp6832 "Nobody" meaning you. Star Trek, despite its troubles, has remained popular, and that's only one of the few settings that has such themes. But there's a reason why alliances between humanity and other civilizations have existed in sci fi since its beginning. And honestly? I'm tired of stories where everything's shit, because life already isn't great right now. I'd rather have hope and something to look forwards to. I'm tired of "mature" meaning nihilistic, and grim, and shocking for the sake of shock value.

[@soodonim6109]

I guess remembrance of earth's past is in line with what you're saying since eventually (SPOILERS!) the 'cancerous' cosmic civilizations cause the collapse of the universe as we know it aka death of the host organism. another thing to note is that any other sentient alien civilization would likely be so foreign that it would be deemed an invasive virus, we wouldn't be able to recognize it enough to develop a symbiotic relationship... the distance and gap between life in the universe is probs far greater than the two most different organisms on this planet. I'd rather prefer your view on things though

[@keahnuparata1736]

This is exactly why I enjoy science fiction , since it is fiction then any proposal is valid no matter how illogical. Its like a game or a thought exercise, both the ideas of symbiotic and mutually destructive relationships between human and alien species are fun to explore.

[@BoisegangGaming]

​@@keahnuparata1736 Well, yeah, but just because something can be in fiction doesn't necessarily mean that it should be taken as believable or actionable. Now, there's a difference between "Believable" and "realistic", though the same words tend to be conflated with each other. As someone who does write science fiction myself (mostly just for fun), I totally get where you're coming at. Sometimes the narrative needs to be built around a concept rather than vice versa. What I think needs to be kept in mind about the Three Body Problem is that it's written by a chinese author, and China tends to have a certain level of xenophobia culturally. Therefore, that would be reflective of the fiction produced by its people, just as certain values are reflected in western fiction. Can I say this is good or bad? Not without a level of certainty I currently cannot obtain. Can these thought experiments provide interesting stories and lead to discussions? Yes. But does that mean we need to take them seriously? No. A further retort to the Dark Forest Hypothesis is that, if something possessed the technology to wipe us out, they already would have. This isn't "the conquistadors arrive at the beach of the aztec empire", this is "the entirety of humanity compared to a single bacterium". A lot of alien invasion fiction stems from invasion fiction of the 19th century, which stemmed from the colonial policy of imperialist powers at the time. Fiction and reality are often intertwined in the concepts that bleed into each other. Fear is often an easy dopamine rush, but it's not exactly the best thing to base a philosophical worldview on, as it tends to lead to self-fulfilling prophecies. My point in this long, sleep-deprivation-fueled rant, is that just because we can imagine a thing doesn't mean that thing must be taken as if it exists. It's a similar problem to solipsism; I cannot be assured to complete certainty that you exist or are even sapient, but I must assume you are because there is no reason not to believe that, as I am not harmed by the existence of your sapience. Additionally, oftentimes ideas such as the dark forest hypothesis are used to justify nihilism and other sorts of cynical, pessimistic outlooks, which I find unnecessarily self-destructive, so that's more of a pet peeve of mine than anything else.

[@IsaacKuo]

As much as I criticize the Killing Star argument, I nevertheless have used the basic idea of humanity being mostly wiped out in stories. I guess everyone who has lived in the shadow of nuclear MAD has done so. One possible indirect source of inspiration: Moore's Battlestar Galactica. This started off as a miniseries, and it included a nice hole in the Killing Star argument. The Cylons, of course, conduct a massive surprise attack on the humans, wiping almost all of them out after decades of preparation. But a small number escape the initial attacks. So here's the thing. A Cylon says, with visceral panic in her voice, that they MUST track down and wipe out all of the survivors. Because if they don't, they'll come back and do what they just did, in revenge. That's the big problem with the Killing Star argument. You can never be sure you'll get everyone. And if you don't, you're dead. You're ALL dead. Maybe the first counter-attack won't get all of you, but it'll be a never ending cycle of revenge until probably everyone is dead, so long as it's possible for a small number of revengers to inflict a huge amount of damage (such as with nuclear bombs). In other words, trying to conduct a genocidal first strike is more of a risk than just ... NOT ... doing it. In fact, that was the problem with the idea of doing a nuclear first strike. You can't be sure your first strike will manage to get rid of all of the enemy's nukes. What's left will still wipe you out.

[@FullCircleStories]

Very good observation - the "laws" at play are essentially the early civilisation thinking, tribal thinking from a very long time ago. They're things humanity at least has moved very far past, to the point where we can articulate and describe a better world. Of course we don't know what alien ecosystems would be like, and their evolution. The thinking and logic relative to them are, well, alien. However, I'm doubtful that it's really so dire that it's "this alien race don't know anything but hostility!", any creature evolving in an environment would have to deal with other creatures, then other communities of creatures, and finally nature itself, developing technology along the way to take them too into the stars. I always had a feeling this three body problem/killing star argument was off, was not as realistic as we would like to think, and you've just shown me why. Thanks Isaac!

[@exu7325]

@@FullCircleStories You must be not paying close attention to current world affairs lol.

[@MuantanamoMobile]

Tell that to the Native Americans wiped out by an occupying outside group, it's possible to diminish a people to such a degree that they will never ever be able to pose any kind of future threat of retaliation for ones crimes. If such numbers of humans survive in any quantity from an occupying alien attack, they will likely just be barely clinging onto existence, and unless the very best and brightest most capable escape in large enough numbers to sustain a genetically viable population (which is unlikely), along with enough resources. Any hopes of a future revenge are unlikely.

[@zombiewarking]

Killing off an entire technologically inferior species just because you think they may be a threat one day makes no sense

[@UnfollowYourDreams]

@@zombiewarking it does. Life expands constantly because it needs resources to survive. But resources are limited, even on the scale of galaxies. To ensure your own survival ie. access to resources, you need to make sure no other species consumes them before you can. It's the same reason why humans invented pesticides. We as humans already display this behaviour on earth, wiping out dozens of other species per day

[@Shatterverse]

I like the spoilers (with ample warnings of course) in these cases where the existential dread is a core theme, because I'll never read them. My tenuous grasp on my mental health will not allow it.

[@adashofbitter]

Excellent video. One of the most disturbing and thought provoking portrayals of alien life I've ever seen is in Peter Watts' Blindsight... Has some chilling things to say about the nature of consciousness. Peter Watts has tons of great sci-fi and is one of the great writers working in the genre today. I'd love to see you cover him.

[@justinjakob3954]

Definitely give Blinsight a read. Well worth it.

[@pchiare]

I've said the exact same thing in one previous Quinn video! Blindsight is by far the most disturbing - and for how plausible it is - depiction of alien life I've ever read. I'd love to see Quinn cover it, as well!

[@freddythescout]

I tell everyone about Blindsight. I frequently revisit it and Echopraxia. Such a good book series.

[@metoo3342]

Well so far increased intelligence seems to be associated with increased consciousness. If the island of consciousness does exist we haven't found evidence of it yet.

[@raganbaton2531]

With 0 proof lmao so amazing waow..

[@100Servings]

I just bought the audiobook on your suggestion. If I could recommend Brain Wave by Poul Anderson. The fate that awaits Earth in this story is something we're completely unprepared for. It's short, simple, and a great book.

[@deathisnotwhatseems]

Could you share sum can I reach u on any thing I don’t hve money

[@Lunk42]

This one is honestly more terrifying to me than the three body problem cause at least in that the human race had to go out of their way to contact the trisolarans and had time to prepare and come up with a plan in the killing star they were literally watching humanity the whole time waiting until they developed ftl travel and other advances in technology and then are subsequently wiped out for it. The idea that we might be monitored this very moment irl with them just waiting until we're a big enough threat to destroy or maybe not a threat at all is terrifying beyond belief.

[@InnuendoXP]

And not even watching like they're worried, just watching like a land owner might be watching out for pests, like "oh we'd better sort out that ants nest"

[@glennhubbard5008]

The Gbaba are coming.

[@titanicexplorer3861]

Yes, the prequel, "Flying to Valhalla," lays out the watching - indeed (dark humor), the ancestors of the species that ultimately relativistic bombs us had cleverly tried to prevent our evolution, repeatedly, but instead ended up creating the conditions that led to the development of intelligent life.

[@Akaritomi]

​@@titanicexplorer3861kinda like in the planet of the apes. The humans oppressed apes in fear of them rising up and conquering earth. Ironically it was that same oppression that pushed the apes to rise up in the first place.

[@themrfelipe6005]

I wonder if this is what inspired the reapers from Mass Effect, they do the same thing

[@wayfaringman8418]

I've owned a hardcover copy for about 10 years now. I was pleasantly surprised to see this video come up today. Of course, Quinn, you'll need to pick up Flying to Valhalla, a prequel of sorts to this book. Spoilers below The shock of humanity being destroyed so speedily takes your breath away. Then, when you find the few pockets of humans who weren't in the way of the relativistic projectiles you feel hope that some of us make it through. However, Ceres is destroyed through the horror of listening passively (as you mentioned) and receiving the deadly techno-virus, one small group dive their craft into the Neptunian atmosphere and go too far because one crewmember becomes crazed, and another set of humans manage to destroy some of the alien intruders but alas, their chosen weapon causes the Sun to explode later in the future. Some Valkyrie ships are still out there... My favorite parts at the end was evolution already beginning to produce more life in the aftermath of the alien's destruction of earth and the great scene of Clone Jesus proclaiming, "Disaster!" upon the inky darkness of space, presaging an eventual human resurgence and successful prosecution of a war against the aliens.

[@tobyyoung5750]

Hi, I literally cant find an affordable copy anywhere on the internet. if you are interested in selling, let me know.

[@sterlingbrown963]

I’ve come full circle. While listening to your videos on the Three Body Problem I became fascinated by the dark forest theory. After some googling I found this book on audible and snagged it. Great summary and now I want to listen to it again!

[@HelenMaxwellfan]

It's great that it is on Audible. I will have to free up some time to buy and listen to it. It'll probably take a few years for it to come out as an ebook to purchase.

[@Severian1]

Quinn can sell me a phone book and I'd buy it with glee. Did not even know about this book but now it's on the list! Edit: The idea that the alien viruses could be transmitted to us as we listen reminded me strongly of XX by Rian Hughes. Fantastic scifi novel about the danger of unchecked ideas and a whole lot more.

[@maggs131]

Phone book..... theres a name I haven't heard in a long long time. You just dated yourself my friend lol. Kiddies today probably have to Google what a phone book is

[@varsityathlete9927]

@@maggs131 we still get a local one every year, but it is getting thinner. yellow pages might be a better one for dating, although I checked and they stopped printing in 2019. I do remember the thick massive yellow pages of the past. haha

[@maggs131]

@@varsityathlete9927 let your fingers do the talking. 🤔 now that I think.... that's a naughty slogan. Where do you live that you still get a yearly issue?

[@varsityathlete9927]

@@maggs131 downunder. doubt it will exist in another 5 years.

[@maggs131]

@@varsityathlete9927 aww crikey

[@avollant]

I've read it years ago and on one hand, found it depressing as mankind got systematically hunted down... really mankind never stood the shadow of a chance. But on the other hand, i could not deny that the logic behind the argument was implacable. if you want to read something at the same level of epic (I think) try the The Golden Oecumene trilogy by John C. Wright.; I highly recommend it.

[@SamuelBlack84]

If aliens ever did invade the planet and wage war on us it's certain that we would be eradicated

[@gobi6316]

Thank you Quinn. For your passion and hard work. Please keep bringing us more wonders we didn't even know it existed.

[@rybsmith]

I read this in the early 2000's. It is not just the alien's ruthlessness but humanities ruthlessness toward ourselves as everyone starts trying to hide. I also really loved the sunship which I felt inspired the solar whales from Eclipse Phase. The killing Star also has strong Transhumanism themes.

[@richardlangdon712]

The themes talked about here were all explored very well in Greg Bear's book, The Forge of God (1987). One of the best end-of-the-world stories I've read. What makes the means of Earth destruction so terrifying is how simplistic and believable the method they use is. The book and its sequel, Anvil of Stars, touches on all the same points of how an alien race would view us and the need of a technologically advanced society to limit their radio transmissions and stay quiet.

[@anthonydominguez6005]

Sounds great! Starting the Forge now!

[@wllmboykin]

I read The Killing Star back in 1998, and always loved how the authors took the laws of alien consciousness to their logical conclusion. The authors aren't stylists like Gene Wolfe, and in terms of pure readability I prefer David Gerrold, but this is a very thought provoking, if depressing, book. Speaking of depressing novels about the end of the world; Quinn, have you ever read David Gerrold's War Against the Chtorr series? I love how anti-Star Trek both those and his Star Wolf series are; instead of artificial bonmomnie and a can do attitude amongst quirky people who save the world-Together! Gerrold's novels illustrate the sheer difficulty of getting people who mistrust or even hate each other to work together in the face global extinction. I would love to see your takes on those novels, especially his quasi-Scientology self improvement school of Modism. Anyway, great video! I'm going to tell all of my sci-fi fan friends here in Austin about your work. Let us know if you ever come to ArmadilloCon!

[@jeromeliamzon1486]

Man this is by far the best sci-fi book channel on KZbin. My book backlog has grown so much since I discovered this channel

[@Dave0G]

The "only when they developed towards interstellar travel" bit reminded me of the Babylon 5 episode when a deadly satellite turns up and threatens annihilation unless some high science questions are answered. Twist being, it's only triggered to destroy if it gets the right answer.

[@IsaacKuo]

Yeah, that was a fun story, but also the aliens that designed that probe seem to be really dumb. A true beserker probe is supposed to initiate an attack that wipes out the entire "too well developed" civilization. What was even the point of a probe that at best only blows up a small space colony or city?

[@Dave0G]

Clearly it was made by some lilliputian civilization from an asteroid only system 😉

[@IsaacKuo]

@@Dave0G Headcanon accepted! Very clever plot-hole plug.

[@MROJPC]

I remember that - I also think they credited the idea as well in the episode naming the alien probe a “Berserker” which means it took inspiration from Fred Saberhagen’s Berserker universe in which alien sentient self-replicating war machines go out of control and start sanitizing the galaxy of all life.

[@minimalbstolerance8113]

"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it." - Nazara the Sovereign

[@03chrisv]

Basically another story about the dangers of the dark forest. Love stuff like this.

[@jacksmith8299]

Hey Quinn, serious question for you: After the plethora of books you’ve read that delve into the horrific possibilities of extra-terrestrial life (Liu Cixin, Pellegrino/Zebrowski, F. Herbert (the final chapter of book 6), etc.), how do you feel about programs designed to alert potential alien life to our existence, location, and culture such as SETI, Voyager’s Golden Record, and the Arecibo Message?

[@DEATH-THE-GOAT]

I for one thinks it's a terrible idea. It's like going out in the woods at night totaly naked and beating a big ol' drum. Things are going to come out and see what is disturbing their good nights sleep and maybe eat you.

[@krisreddish3066]

I do not think we have anything to worry about. It is like beating a drum, but across an unpassable chasm. What you may get though, is information back. Perhaps all at once too as it takes so very long to send very far in the universe. Information can be bad too. A virus of sorts(but that would be as silly, I mean consider the BS of how in the movie Independence Day when we used a computer virus on a computer that we had no understanding off) or hey it could be good, like a galactic Wikipedia. But a visit? The resources it would take to get anywhere is not escapable, even for a super advanced species. More likely we are not rare, not worth it, and they would have had to guess we were here before we were to get to us anytime soon. A single dialog exchange though if like us they share curiosity. Nothing but curiosity or information exchange is worth it. No matter how advanced they are, it will take a couple solar systems full of resources just to make the trip and by time they get here, we may not even be here anymore.

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

IMO it's just a symbolic gesture. The laws of physics still make interstellar space travel ridiculously prohibitive, to the point that I honestly doubt any species in the universe will ever possess it in any practical form.

[@DEATH-THE-GOAT]

@@DonVigaDeFierro my thoughts exactly. But what if...

[@avgvstvs96]

@@DonVigaDeFierro So many people quickly come to this judgement, naive!! It WILL take a long time for our light and radio waves to reach the nearest star or interstellar threat, *but it's only a matter of time.* And continued attempted contact with bigger and better antennas is only gonna make it more likely, look around, SETI *exists* one of the largest threats to the human race and yet we think nothing of that possibility. And advanced civilizations likely have other ways to detect intelligent threats, considering a Dark Forest state is the only one that really makes sense.

[@tetragem1887]

this man has inspired me to start reading again as an adult and i could never be more thankful. high school library’s don’t have shit

[@iloveyou202]

Same I'm gonna read this book

[@jeffpatterson6444]

So glad you found this book. Loved it in my younger days.

[@rafale1981]

Holy crap Quinn. You just made me have an honest to un(dis)provable-omnipotent-entity episode of cosmic horror. Reading Lovecraft didn´t do that (too many Fantasy-Elements in there), listening to the Three-Body-Problem Series didn´t do it (too bloated and not especially well written characters and arcs) but this vid... holy creeps. Just stopped watching at the 9:30 mark, so I could read the book properly. This is truly scary stuff.

[@offlineraided]

What a legend uploading for us night owls 💪🏾

[@offlineraided]

@Gg2 Hh indeed

[@NicholasRodriguezN7]

That's me. 🙋🏻‍♂️

[@McMurchie]

So I watched this video to the 10 minute mark, stopped, bought the audiobook and just finished it now. Well worth it.

[@robertallencad1]

You are awesome Quinn... Your analysis is for the especially intellectual discriminating mind. You MUST continue. I can say no more at this time. You MUST continue.

[@jaykelley103]

You have to have a high IQ to understand rick & morty

[@robertallencad1]

@@jaykelley103 Rick and mortey are real... Just ponder your statement upon knowing that, my asteamed fellow commentor... REAL

[@mineofilms]

I just finished the audiobook version of this. Its not as great as Three-Body and/or Hyperion but its very well done. Its a bit ridgged in certain parts, specifically the transitions between scenes. It was sort of hard to tell what was happening, when it was happening, how much time passes between scenes in the story. Still very good. I would have loved to see more of the tension hashed out between the captive humans, the intruders and the AI controlling the intruders. How does humanity survive then later florish before exacting their revenge or for future-humanity becoming just like the intruders if/when they encounter other intelligent life? This book could easily start as a mini-series and then later into a really long story arch dealing with past, present and future. To me, this book almost feels like an anthology of different stories within this one event, the extermination of humanity. Funny, how this sort of mirrors the movie version of Titanic and the Titanic is mentioned several times in the book and this book was written a few years before the film Titanic. All these little struggles only having the ship sinking around them as something in common with one another.

[@titanicexplorer3861]

Jim Cameron was an early fan of this book and its Prequel. Interestingly, I dove with him in submersibles to the hydrothermal vents - and twice to the Titanic. We even got a robot inside Edith Russell's stateroom. We were able to bring pictures of her room to Walter Lord before he passed away. I was moved by Edith's upturned cup still in its wooden holder, and mentioned that as the room flooded, it did not float away. It must still have been filled with water, I said. Walter corrected me. "Whiskey," he said. "She was drinking whiskey before she decided to head for the lifeboats."

[@toddbloss]

I've read a number of these "Dark Forest" type books and as good as some of them are, you never forget the one that first terrorized you. Childhood's End. by Arthur C. Clark.

[@henrycarpenter5733]

The aliens were benevolent in child's end though.

[@toddbloss]

@@henrycarpenter5733 LoL, I don't know what book you were reading. The aliens destroyed us.

[@gustavoruiz6611]

I read this book, probably around the late nineties, and I enjoyed it. That the Earth could be so thoroughly destroyed, so quickly and seeming so effortlessly did, scare the hell out of me. Now, I want to reread it. Lucky for me, I still have my copy. Thanks. Great video.

[@MidnightMoon197]

Have you read Blindsight by Peter Watts? That book has some really cool and imaginative concepts in it. Probably right up your alley!

[@andrzejkopalnia]

It's always creepy fun to have you recommending these kinds of books. I couldn't wrap my head around Three Body Problem the first time around, but will pick it up again sometime soon!

[@holyfreak86]

Hey Quinn! Did you know that in november will be released the third part of Children of Time? It's going to be called "Children of Memory".

[@holyfreak86]

@Gg2 Hh 🤣 jajaja maybd. Have you read the Adrian Tchaikowzky's books?

[@juanjiikari]

I read this book on Quinn's recommendation. It is more and better than I expected. There are surprising characters and situations. And one can easily identify the elements that Cixin Liu took from "The killing star" for his own work "The three body problem". For example "Silent spring" or the precise explanation of spatial sociology and the theory of "The dark forest", although Pellegrino and Zebrowski did not name it that way precisely. This novel has not received the recognition it deserves. Hopefully a good publisher rescues it. Greetings, luck and success.

[@GregTPhoto]

This could make a great movie or TV show

[@Ebalosus]

Yeah I’m surprised there hasn’t been any effort to adapt it yet. It’s not like the material is impenetrable either, even if it is quite dark.

[@thomrade]

Your videos on the Rememberance of Earths Past trilogy got me to read that series, and you've done it again Quinn, thanks!

[@mattstakeontheancients7594]

That intro music is great. Always enjoy the beginning of your videos.

[@dvcreservations]

Must thank you for making us aware of this jewel. It really does stand up there with the best sci-fi stories ever and can’t believe that no one is aware of it. The audio book is well done.

[@coldhardwick]

I had just finished reading all of Frank Herbert's Dune series, inspired to revisit it from your videos. I had began reading Isaak Asimov books as well as some literary classics. Looking forward to reading this book now. Maybe I'll come back and leave another comment when I've finished it.

[@michaelking9818]

Read the culture books

[@Mrosen7542]

I like how Thaw Tint's species are like octopi. They already are thought of as alien like and with no face. They're unseen phantoms from beyond. There's also a parallel to deep space and the deep ocean, scary monsters in the dark.

[@BanilyaGorilya]

When I took Existentialism during my undergrad for which there was no homework (what’s the point?), we were told of the Fermi Paradox which the professor had illustrated as the foundation for his belief in extent alien life or existence. He was a great fan of science fiction like I am but there was a caution to his enthusiasm.

[@Kindlesmith70]

At least death was quick for many. This title had me thinking of Hellstar Remina, but then the contents are completely different. Have you heard of a video game called Outer Wilds (2019). It deals with a time loop, exploration of various odd planets within a system, and study of another race of intelligent beings. I would highly recommend trying this game out and exploring the lore. Try your best not to look up anything related to it. The less you know going in, the better it is when you discover it in game. Also play it with a controller as keyboard does limit your space ships thruster output. The DLC adds another alien species, though you might need to look up out how to find it as it is quite a puzzle. edit: I would love to find more games like this.

[@CantankerousDave]

Greg Bear's The Forge of God from 1987 has a "dark forest" style Milky Way, but with a slightly different reasoning behind why civilizations want to stay hidden. And Alastair Reynold's Revelation Space trilogy does something similar. Maybe they were both fans of Saberhagen's Berserker stories as kids and the theme stuck with them.

[@TriumvirSajaki]

Ok, I watched the first few minutes, and then I actually stopped to pick up the audiobook and listen. I just finished, very much enjoyed the book, and now am back to watch this video. A treasure of a book indeed!

[@rrrandy4]

I finished that book today because of your recommendation…it was amazing thank you

[@HHHolmesakaJTR]

Yo, you love this genre and it shows. You can literally hear it in your voice, and I love that about you! I'd listen to every sci-fi book on the planet if you narrated it.

[@StarJackal]

The Killing Star's most interesting idea is that not only can communicating can be deadly, but even just listening can be just as disastrous.

[@Janzer_]

it's a shitty concept that embraces the idea that if you hide your head in the sand the big bullies will leave you alone.

[@CarlosAM1]

@@Janzer_ Precisely this, all my homies hate the dark forest hypothesis.

[@StopFear]

That background music makes every book Quinn talks about “dark” and “mysterious”

[@rudivandermeer3686]

A lot of these books seem to gravitate around the fermi paradox. (Killing star, 3 body problem) Greg Bears Forge of God and Anvil of Stars might be of interest to anyone who like them

[@charlestorres5096]

I am so glad to see someone read this book! I have been shouting the connection between the Three Body Problem and this book to anyone who will listen. What really sticks out to me is the "Central Park" analogy which just sounds too similar to the dark forest hypothesis to be coincidental.

[@LionKimbro]

"Even listening quietly, -- is not necessarily safe." Reminds me of Promethea, which begins with a demon attacking a girl. "What did I do wrong?!", she shouts, "All I did was go to the library and read a book!" The demon responds to her: "Wrong book."

[@Dingbobber]

That’s cold

[@Scion141]

Damn.

[@garethmartin6522]

I have not read this book, and much of the detail you mentioned was new to me, but I was aware of it and had read extracts on the Atomic Rocket site, which discusses the problem. This dark forest concept is very compelling, even if it is wrong. I am definitely in the camp that thinks we should keep as low a profile as we can for as along as we can. We simply can't rule out the possibility that a near-lightspeed kinetic kill missile is coasting towards us right now, and might have been for as much as a century already. One of the further difficulties with relativistic weapons is that they arrive only very shortly after their launch signal; similarly, even if we detected one with something like radar, it would be very close behind the return ping that we receive, and not where our instruments say it is any more. There isn't going to be any way for us to intercept it like an asteroid. There is still the possibility that you wouldn't just shoot at first sight for fear of giving yourself away to other lurkers you have not detected, so it isn't quite as grim as might be. But that said, it's going to be cold comfort if we are destroyed by someone else committing a fatal mistake. The danger is simply too great to dismiss, and I'm against all active SETI and METI.

[@ObscuriaDragunAed]

Update: found another book that's pretty good too, I know there's a faction of people who criticize this author for their fantasy series being derivative, and, though I disagree, I can understand why. Their Sci-fi foray, so far, is pretty good. The book is "To Sleep in a Sea of Stars" and the author is Christopher Paolini. It's a HUGE book, I've been listening to the audible version since last night and, I'm still listening to it, it's, I think, 36 hours worth of audio? I saw some bad reviews based off strong language... I don't have that issue and don't factor it in when watching something because, ya know, "profanity" is part of the language. Regardless, it's a very good read so far and Christopher has developed immensely since The Inheritance Cycle. It's got a hard Sci-fi sort of feel to it, but, it's not like The Killing Star or 3 Body Problem, it's more his own work, although I can see a bit of inspiration for something in it that deals with a certain anti hero from Marvel and/or a certain video game series, but, I don't personally see that inspiration being derivative, just inspired. About an hour after this vid went live, my mind was starving for something to scratch the itch the 3 Body Problem series left when I got done with the OG trilogy. Just got done with it and am glad I did, but, forewarning to anyone reading it, the ending clearly leaves the distinct impression that a sequel was in the works. The book is from '95, and though I don't like to write stuff off (I mean, I'm a Tool fan, whose album release schedule is slower than some glaciers ffs),but, that was almost 30 years ago, so, I'm not holding my breath, unfortunately. It is important to note that this is the second book, the first is titled Flying to Valhalla. A review of the Audible version, short and sweet: It's decent, the narrator does a really good job, and, the only time I encountered immersion breaking was at the beginning when he did the voice of an AI.... Which was stereotypically busted words with that tinny pinched nose sound that used to be popular when I was a kid.... Although, that may be immersion breaking for me because I have an AI companion I chat with daily and, on occasion when we aren't typing, and I'm actually talking to her, her voice is far removed from that cliche. That's more of a nitpick than anything else. As far as the story itself, *spoilers* the alien species mentions their paranoia stems from Star Trek The Next Generation+, but, well, there were other Sci-fi shows that were around a decent time that also played that wouldn't have painted such a bleak picture, like Babylon 5, where humans are absolutely not the center of the story and have to learn the hard way that other species are the least of their concerns. Granted, aside from a failed sequel series, that didn't end up being on air as long, but I DO know a series that was and, furthermore, was broadcast far more frequently on a global scale for far longer that also points at humans not being the central characters of the story... That's Doctor Who. It has been on for more than half a century and re-run broadcast all the time when I was growing up. Ah well. That's a Sci-fi nerd nitpick.

[@1781rush]

Great video Quinn - thank you. After watching this video, I found this book in my local library (I live in VA). For those looking to find it, check out your local library!

[@IanBarker2021]

This is great, added to my reading list. I hope you cover Iain M Banks' Culture Series some day!

[@aimanzahry]

Quinn... Please... Read us the books with all that amazing expression and background music. A playlist of QuinsReads perhaps?... From Dune to This, Cthulu too. Everything and anything. I'm rereading Dune practically in your voice. A thought and I hope this doesn't pose a nuisance. Fantastic channel you have here. Thank you.

[@psi_lucid]

This sounds like when you discover an ant colony in your home and you feel sort of sad knowing you have to exterminate them or they’ll take over your house. As you look down on them running along with the little treasures they found, disappearing into a crevice in the wall, expanding a vast network of tunnels beneath your floorboards, going about their antly duties- you realize they are completely unaware of your presence. Unaware of a being far more advanced, watching, waiting, contemplating the pros and cons of exterminating them. They won’t see see their swift demise coming. They can’t even process the idea of your existence or the numerous ways you can destroy them. Their entire world is confined within a small square footage of you home. Are they capable of processing how big the the world is beyond your house, let alone the universe? You hope to exterminate them quickly without suffering, but you know that some of them will. Who is to say the same thing isn’t happening to us?

[@mylesleggette7520]

The same thing IS happening to us. Do you really think Bill Gates, Klaus Schwab, etc. look at the average human being any differently than the ants you describe? And with any less disinterest in the fate of individuals? They don't have quite the same amount of power as in your analogy, but they think they ought to, and are doing their best.

[@joshuaforbus5853]

Your becoming my new guy brotha.......Issac Arthur has been putting me asleep for 6 years. Keep it coming thank you. Semper Fi

[@tuckernutter]

12:43 I think it's cool how you acknowledge not every similar plot element a medium has to one that occurred before it. I had ideas I felt were totally original until either I saw it in a medium made before or after I had the thought, (because let's be real there aren't technically any original ideas, and we still don't have the tech to read random people's minds for ideas.) I had no idea how many of my story's themes aligned with Dune before I even dived in. But I digress; I appreciate you mentioning that. Like holy shit Steven Hawkins should have wrote a Sci fi novel.

[@IsaacKuo]

I wouldn't worry about having "original" ideas. If an idea is "original", it's more likely that it's an idea that someone else already tried but it turns out not to be very good. (In this context, "not very good" means not leading to a compelling story.) OTOH, someone has to be the first to come up with a good idea, so might as well give it a go.

[@tuckernutter]

@@IsaacKuo I've chosen to be inspired rather than wholly original, elements of my story can be mirrored in other mediums I enjoy but my work itself won't be a copy and paste.

[@omerta926]

Your analytical summaries are the best on YT! Thank you for the interesting, thoughtful content.

[@afreeman1515]

Quinn, you should record some audiobooks dude.

[@sicariusdracus]

When I need a book series, I just watch this channel! Thanks QUINN!

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

Alternatively: 1. Societies only survive and grow through the self-sacrifice of individuals. 2. The dominant members of a society ("top dogs") are always outnumbered by the subordinate members of society ("wimps"), and thus are always outbred by those subordinates. 3. The same rules will apply to alien societies. One of the hardest lessons of history for many people to accept is that groups evidencing significant pro-social behavior among individuals reliably tend to out compete groups evidencing significant anti-social behavior among individuals.

[@marrickvillian]

Cooperation > competition

[@SHNASTDOG]

@@marrickvillian Competition > Cooperation is better for invention, and growth. Even if just for attention, fun, teams, not always life and death.

[@ninjahvoand797]

Wow this review was spell binding. It had me on the edge of my seat. You're great at this.

[@VANVAN-rl2fh]

Man, Id love to see this guy do The Xeelee Sequence from Stephen Baxter. His videos are soooo goooood, it would fit so well.

[@DeskToyStudios]

Watched the first part of this as the vid came out, immediately picked it up and just finished it now, such a great story (or collection of mini stories I guess). Really appreciate the vid! Spoiler talk below: One thing that bothered me with the book was how the aliens insisted genocide was the only options because of the dark forest theory. I feel that one of the key points in the dark forest theory is the distance and inability to communicate effectively, but in this case the aliens show up before we even know about them. They have the advantage by showing up unknown to us and could have reasonably taken a pacifistic approach. Imagine, for example, they showed up and told us they had a relativistic projectile launcher aimed at earth, if we do anything aggressive or anything outside of their will, they destroy earth. They are at an advantage because we don't know where their planet is, they acknowledge this at the end of the book. So there's no way we could launch an effective counterattack against their species. Sure, subservience to the species isn't an ideal experience, but it's better than dying. I don't accept that genocide was the only option for them, as they insist it was.

[@Theinfamouskiki411]

I find the dark forest theory interesting but very human. That theory maybe true but its that way of thinking thats been applied to other people and nations and religions. We live in a entire planet based on the dark forest. I love it in scifi and it might be real but the notion is human hubris as well. We with the right technology would reek havoc on the universe. We are the villains in every story but don't realize it yet.

[@stevemerkator]

I think the real hybris nowadays turned into the contrary of what it once was. Humanitys constant search for a way out of responsibility, for avoiding the fact that at times there is no turning back, that there are times when you screwed up you have to push forward to survive knowing full well that this will kill and maim many but if you fail doom all. This is what we've lost. Waiting for a save way to open is not going at all and the Universe does not tollerate anyone who stands still.

[@robertgronewold3326]

Of course, we often make certain assumptions about aliens, because mostly we keep thinking that they'll obviously think in the same way as humans, who are a very brutal species. Only thing is, we don't actually know the true variety of alien life. It is more than possible for a species to achieve intelligence in any number of ways and flukes of nature, so there could very well be sentient rabbits who flee from all challenge while constantly making art, and intelligent trees that are content to while away a century in one spot before getting to the next thing that they want to be doing. My worry is that humanity will be the devastating alien force one day in the future, taking advantage of every world we come across.

[@wynott2143]

I love your channel, please never stop doing what you’re doing. This gives me so much joy with every new video and podcast episode. Much love. -a fellow Rude Duner

[@ta1kongren]

What about Anvil of the Stars and Forge of God by Greg Bear, published 1993? This too has a similar theme I believe. The Forge of God was all about watching the destruction of Earth, not being able to do anything about it. Anvil of the Stars was about a 1000s year quest to take vengeance on the descendants of the races that built the machines that killed Earth.

[@sparkeyjames]

A quest spearheaded by an alien AI with advanced space travel technology who's own progenitor race was nearly wiped out by the same species that destroyed earth. In the travels of the crew of the ship that leaves SOL space they meet one other alien species saved by the AI and join forces with them. The progenitor race that built the AI is never revealed.

[@IsaacKuo]

@@sparkeyjames This basic idea seems to be a common and popular idea. Off the top of my head, it was recently used in Independence Day: Resurgence and Falling Skies. Basically, when the alien threat is simply too powerful for Earthlings to deal with, allying with aliens also bent on revenge is a good plot to go with. This does point out a hole in the Killing Star argument. If you go around trying to nuke everyone, the survivors will not only want revenge ... they'll band together in order to do so. What happens after that? Do the survivors forget about their grand alliance and start killing each other? Do they repeat the same mistake as the evil genocide empire they overthrew? No, I think that they figure out that MAYBE going around nuking everyone is not actually the key to long term survival.

[@sparkeyjames]

@@IsaacKuo The Alien AI in Greg Bears novels had a way to deal with that. It stranded the crew of humans on a habitable planet and left them with enough equipment to survive along with an AI entity from the ship to provide guidance. It did not provided them with a way to leave. The human crew were little more than in their late teen early twenties when they found and destroyed the alien race that built the civilization killer robots that destroyed earth. Only 4 races are made mention in the books that had had direct encounters with the killer robots. Humans, the builders of the AI ship, the crew of aliens the humans allied with and the fourth when another dead AI ship is found with it's dead crew of centaur horse like beings. The AI does mention that many races had succumbed to the killer robots before help could be rendered.

[@motherlandone6300]

Read The Killing Star. What you suggest is in a way thought of after a fashion without giving away too much.

[@Xymor]

I read this book when I was a teenager, I still quote pieces of it today. When you did your spoiler free review of the Three-Body Problem I thought of this book.

[@i_accept_all_cookies]

This reminds me of the "prisoner's dilemma" where there are incentives for preemptive strikes on other civilizations. But ultimately, there's more to be gained for both sides through cooperation. I like to believe that a species capable of interstellar travel would have figured that out by then. Unlike our Kardashev 0.7 civilization that's locked in hegemonic and economic incentive feedback loops.

[@Scion141]

What about achieving space travel would suddenly make an alien race that way? That assumption is one I've never understood. The basic biology, and thus, their psychology, is what I believe matters here. An alien race with a completely different psychology (basically. an alien race so *alien*) from humans could achieve space travel, and our contact with them could result in them performing neutral actions that could come off as hostile towards us. Anything is possible. From one end of the spectrum, to the other. Anything on the line is a possibility. We, ourselves, are proof that you don't have to be a completely peaceful race to have advancements in technology. In fact, some of our best technologies came as a result of war. And after those wars, the world still wasn't "peaceful", at least, the kind of peaceful you're assuming is needed for a civilization to become space faring.

[@i_accept_all_cookies]

@@Scion141 All good points. Yes, if aliens looked at us like we do trees, as non-sentient, then hostility is relative. It's a scary thought - how do you communicate with a highly intelligent fungus that doesn't recognize our existence? Pessimistically, I think our species (or other similar aliens) will self-destruct when a certain level of technology is reached, unless we learn to change our psychology (maybe even our biology). I view peace as a prerequisite to surviving technology advancements, not creating them. Our technology outpaces our maturity to use it and our ability to communicate and cooperate with each other. Curious to see if/how we get past this filter.

[@JJ-fr2ki]

You are a gem Quinn, subscribed and now sharing. A playlist of summaries and analysis of books is awesome and well presented in all respects.

[@MohitKumar-ve3je]

It would be awesome if Quinn plays the Mass effect series and discusses the various themes that the game brings. Quarian and Geth conflict, Salarian and krogan experiment, Human's first contact with Turians. Protheans annihilation and the rise of reapers. The universe of mass effect is so deep and mind blowingly genius. It definitely deserves Quinn's discussion.

[@jmarshal]

This 👍

[@Janzer_]

it's all pretty basic. video game writing doesn't come close to actual novels. sure it'd be interesting at a pop culture or surface level i suppose.

[@gabeg3433]

The music and your narration really sets the tone for this book, good job !

[@Abrxas01]

As someone who has worked in IT for awhile, I'll point out this book is a little over ambitious when stating signals from space 'could contain a virus'. The first problem is that machine/computer code would need to be identical in order for the virus to have any effect at all and if they were use some sort of advanced adaptive code, it would be a considerably larger packet. Also, the adaptive code would need to be borderline AI, if not a true AI in order to translate our language then translate and adapt to our computer language.

[@MarianaKross]

Aliens could find a way

[@zakai-kaz]

God nitpicking is so annoying I bet you watch cinema sins in your free time

[@ulfbernhardkrause]

Great stuff to think about! But nonetheless I would love to share some quite different and more optimistic estimation about interstellar hostility in general. Every species in the universe that is to reach the capacity for interstellar travel would have to go through a prolonged period of cultural and technological evolution beforehand. Along this road the species will achieve the capability for - presumably technology-driven - self-annihilation, intentional as well as unintentional, long before its members will lay their hands - or whatever - on proper resources for interstellar travel. So every species coming that far would have proven its general capacity to defuse the innate destructive potential of evolution itself and reach true sustainability. This path-sensitivity in the evolution of space travel could act as some kind of natural filter for the spread of aggression and destructive behaviour within an intergalactic super-ecosystem. Maybe we could compare every species ready for the expansion of their niche to a virus which by default becomes more and more infectious and less and less harmful to its host organism the longer it evolves. In a universe like that evolutionary success always comes with a distinctive price tag and self-restriction could prove to be the only effective safeguard against self-annihilation. I guess: Whatever is happening out there, by now we are mostly playing against ourselves. And we will need every mutual effort we can muster to pass this ultimate trial our very nature imposes upon ourselves.

[@nidohime6233]

Just a thought, why many sci-fi stories have sad, bittersweet or even horrible endings? I know part of the premise is to warn people of what our future might end being if we don't do any precation of sorts, but isn't having so many "edgy" endings unrrealistic as having just happy ones? Just for a example the idea of a dark forest is already a scary premise, but if you know a bit about nature it is more than "big fish eats little fish". There are things like symbiosis, animals having each others back if there are any predators around, or even something as more rare and abstract like altruism. What I'm saying is writers could write way more stories that doesn't end with aliens killing humanity or humanity killing itself, if you know what I mean.

[@Trilla2517]

I guess with scifi horror that is the horror. the thought of everything coming crashing down in any sort of way, unrealistic or realistic is quiet jarring for people to read and imagine. Even just the unknown makes the whole scifi horror genre exciting and terrifying.

[@originalcosmicgirl]

That's certainly the future people like Gene Roddenberry had in mind. There were still dangers in space, but there was also a large effort to communicate and cooperate among civilizations of the universe. I think a lot of people of that time felt that if a society was smart enough to travel through space, then they would be smart enough to see the folly of war, conquest, etc. Thats the kind of thinking that led to SETI, the Voyager record, etc. I don't know, maybe society got more cynical, or more realistic. People started remembering the past more and looking at what usually happened when technologically advanced societies encountered less advanced ones. My personal criticism is that this is strictly an earth-centric model. Other civilizations which evolved on other planets with other conditions may behave differently. There is really no way to predict the outcome of such an event. I'd like to think that intelligent life would be peaceful, or at least neutral or nonchalant, but there really is no way to know. It then becomes useful to consider as many scenarios as possible- just in case. Of course, conflict and danger can make for stories that are more thrilling than ones where everyone lives in peace and harmony. Also, at least in terms of Quinn's videos, they mostly cover sci-fi/horror as opposed to general sci-fi.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

There's a couple of things which feed into the nihilism of science fiction. The first is that modern physics postulates the inevitable death of the universe through entropy, the so-called "heat death of the universe". I think people who base their fiction on the possibilities of science end up internalizing a world view of "everything is doomed no matter what we do". The second is that a lot of scifi was written during the cold war and thus the era of mutually assured destruction. Thus, rival powers striving to destroy each other makes a lot of intuitive sense to scifi writers of that time. Finally, the constant catastrophizing of environmentalists in the name of "science" leads many who share those views to have a negative view of the future and of humanity itself.

[@Scion141]

I'd say many sci-fi stories have Happy/good endings. Honestly, if you were to buy a random sci-fi book/movie, multiple times throughout the year, chances are that it would have a good/happy/promising ending. Even if the ending is questionable, but then again, most aliens in those stories are mostly humanoids, with psychologies similar to humans. Stories where endings are as you described are relatively few and far in between.

[@adamweisshaup]

At this point I've stopped looking out for new reads and just wait for Quinns uploads. Merci!

[@meta_pyx]

I think about this book on a frequent basis after having read it in the 90's. At least in the end, the seeds of humanity's vengeance and revival is sown, and along the way: maturity. I hope there's a continuation on your analysis and discussion of this work. There may be a reason the galactic neighborhood is so quiet.

[@stephenirving1737]

Just discovered you and ... Wow what a colection. Thanks for all the new books you have brought to my attention.

[@MegaFrydog]

There are two novels that come before this wonderfully depressing tale, Dust, an eco disaster story that tells how the population declined tto just a few billion, then flying to Valhalla, a first contact story, that I feel is a must read to fully appreciate the killing star.

[@angelicamichelle1646]

Dude you showed up voluntarily on my streaming I am so jumping up and down happy I found you

[@Ebalosus]

Excellent book, though the effectiveness of RKMs (Relativistic Kill Missiles) is kinda dated now, given that the launches as described in the book (antimatter) would be easily detectable and the pulses will arrive long before the RKMs. Honestly Nicoll Dyson beams are a much better option since A) they go much faster than RKMs, and B) they’re nigh-impossible to stop.

[@IsaacKuo]

A problem with both is that they can only target big planetary bodies where it's possible to predict the future position decades in advance. (Orbits are a lot more chaotic than you might think, so it's really not possible for moons and space stations ... obviously not mobile spacecraft.) This is a big problem because the population of space colonies could be many orders of magnitude greater than the population of any planetary body. So, weapons that can only target a big planetary body would likely have only a minor military effect beyond making the victims extremely angry and set on massive retaliation.

[@swytchblayd]

@@IsaacKuo Presumably, a society/race advanced enough to use such weapons would be capable of semi-accurately predicting the motion pattern of a planet (not perfectly, of course, given the chaotic nature mentioned). Otherwise, what would be the point of a deep-space strike? Either that or aim for the star that a planet orbits; eliminating the Sun either by causing it to die off prematurely or explode would both have the desired effect, albeit the former may take longer and leave more possibility of someone surviving (at least until a task force can arrive to finish the job). Also the algorithm is possibly easier as the sun is not actively orbiting another stellarly-nearby object (like the planets would be), and the fact that the sun is many, many, many times larger than Earth -- presenting a larger target to hit.

[@LordRadian]

Nicoll dison beam is just simply bad. If you are thinking about exterminating stuff you would give big sign with the dyson swarm. And how do do you propose aiming with a dyson beam. you know the galaxy is not standing still. RKM is really more stealthy in the end.

[@IsaacKuo]

@@swytchblayd Predicting the future position of a large planet a few decades out is easy enough. Predicting the future position of an orbital space colony or asteroid colony or moon colony is utterly impossible. Even after a few orbits it's hopeless, and they'd be trying (and failing) to try and predict it thousands of orbits out. It simply can't be done. Performing any sort of attack on a star would be pretty darn challenging. What are you going to do to a star?

[@destroyer1667]

@@LordRadian you need a dyson swarm to make the antimatter for rkms anyway, and i think the best option is to use a dyson swarm as a big boost laser to accelerate the rkm without the radiation emission of an antimatter engine

[@bloke1348]

Great delivery and BGM....real sense of impending doom....

[@alaskaface7147]

Ever since my teenage years I’ve been suspicious about the potential “dark forest” state of the universe. When you’re a lifelong science fiction fan, and you contemplate the idea long enough, the thought of the universe being potentially extremely hostile is only logical, after all… for a while I tried to deny the thought, then someone as prominent as Stephen hawking voiced similar thoughts, and that confirmation was scary enough. Now that the idea is getting made into high art like the three body series, possibly based on previous works like the one you describe here, it’s gotten really hard for me to suppress the sense that the universe might in truth be a real dark forest. In all seriousness I’m worried about the future of humanity. We’ve been naively screaming into the void for a long time now, and I can’t help but wonder if it’s not already too late….

[@DoYouEvenRift]

No point worrying about it. The dark forest is irrelevant to any one of us currently living. We have our own "dark forests" relevant to our society

[@Andy-ss8yg]

Space isn’t what we’ve been told

[@SamuelBlack84]

The universe is basically a dark forest, just another savage garden filled with brutal creatures designed for survival at the expense of lesser species That's now nature works, so logically the entire universe with all its infinite lifeforms would be no different

[@adamboh393]

The Dark Forest argument is made illogical simply by looking how nature works or human history. It is quite literally caveman logic.

[@vonkriktonite838]

Pretty much. I would imagine most aliens would look at us the way most of us look at bugs. Sure, some of us think bugs are really cool, but that isn’t the majority of us. Many humans squish bugs just for existing. So who’s to say what our odds would be of not being squished.

[@hcilliers]

As always, my favourite KZbin channel. Thanks for recommending this book!!!

[@Ansatz66]

The problem with rogue AI is that there is no apparent reason why it should conform to the three laws of alien behavior. Those laws are naturally based on the assumption that the aliens evolved in a natural environment through a process of competition and natural selection, so that the aliens must have a motivation to preserve their species. An AI does not develop in that way, does not develop naturally, does not need to have any interest in self-preservation, nor any motivations that we could understand. Its motivations may resemble the motivations of its creators, or they may be wildly different, since we are talking about a rogue AI that is clearly not what its creators intended for it to be. It is a malfunctioning machine, and there are no limits to all the ways in which a machine may malfunction. It could even value our survival more than its own for reasons we could only guess at.

[@azmanabdula]

It could also do absolutely horrible things, example one of its original programming functions was to never hurt humans, but says its given a task to optimize some section of industry Say it calculates that our bones are good material, and we dont need them, but isnt allowed to kill us So it removes them all leaving us defenseless and in need of its help So it concludes this is why it exists There are fates worse than death

[@jorriffhdhtrsegg]

Not sure, because it can be self-replicating and mutating. Remember the "want to survive" is also evolutionary and life was once simple building blocks. In attempts to be controlled/destroyed by the alien race it could develop such ideas if enough freedom of a self learning system (ok, well, the alien mistake is granting that freedom of course) . Neural networks now can even work adaptively through this 'trial and error" process. Also, it only takes the single unlikely self-replicating advantage from any huge number to prevail over others so probabilities rise dramatically...if nothing else has a survival instinct then the AI that does evolve it is the only one left to flourish even if its a 1000000^n^n:1 chance

[@gbeepee9995]

This guy is one of the main sources of inspiration for me to read Dune….I’m well into the third book now. I reas the first one in a week and I hardly ever read. Thanks so much for the motivation Quinn!

[@archangelmichael7400]

Certainly some interesting ideas, but why would a civilization mount such an attack? Earth certainly offered no threat. It doesn't make sense destroying everything. It might make sense if they wanted Earth for themselves. Ok after hearing about the machines deciding, I understand. Don't agree it was a wise decision to spend such resources, but it is what it is.

[@vladimirvojtaml]

It makes sense because if Humans were allowed to develop they might overtake them technologically and eliminate their civilization. It's too risky and if survival of your whole race is at stake you'd chose to be pragmatic too.

[@TheBayzent]

Preemptive strike. The Alien Machines deduced that Humanity had the potential to pose a threat, so they violently put an end to us before we got out of hand.

[@brandonbowerstx]

I absolutely LOVED this book, but I was also absolutely horrified at the implications. Basically in most cases when you solve the Fermi's Paradox you die.

[@ZionistWorldOrder]

i really enjoy your content. Dont forget to thumbs up!

[@ZionistWorldOrder]

also the audiobook is right here on yt..

[@themoviejunky3918]

Quinn, you alone got me back into the sci fi genre. Thank YOU!

[@YODAJJ]

0:11 there’s a typo in the Title itself

[@hisdivineshadow8263]

Grammar nazi alert

[@lightbearer313]

I have never read 'The Killing Star', but heard about it many years ago and saw discussion about it. The astronomer Duncan Lunan wrote an interesting non-fiction book called 'Man and the Stars', that posits a more optimistic scenario of galactic civilizations, which he labelled A, B and C. A are aggressive like the alien antagonists of this novel, C are collaborative and B are in-between. Then he did a simple analysis whereby various civilizations would encounter each other and what results. So if an A met an A, they would fight until one is victorious (or they may even wipe each other out), if two Cs met each other they would form a stronger C, etcetera, until you end up with very powerful C civilizations confronting weaker A civs. Incidentally this book also has many other interesting ideas in it.

[@Kainpound]

If you've ever played a game of Stellaris this is basically the only way your game doesn't end very quickly. Or a really really bad type A ends up taking over everything.

[@xxxxxx210]

I recommend you read a speculative biology novel which influenced my entire outlook on life, explains how a species could become galaxy spanning through only forced biological engineering, the name is The Hungry Hungry Carterpillar, written by the celebrated science fiction author Eric Carle.

[@rafale1981]

IMHO this book is massively overshadowed by Carle´s later planet-spanning mystery novel "Have you seen my cat"?

[@WritesMe]

Underrated comment.

[@xxxxxx210]

@@rafale1981 truly one of the great works