Raging With the Machine: ATI CIF and the Rage Pro Turbo,

[@anomaly95]

@12:37 "... a lot of these 3D Rage cards ended up integrated on motherboards or in other situations where you wouldn't normally see them for gaming use..." Yes! The PCI based Rage XL was often soldered to server motherboards for basic text output or somewhat low resolution graphics. The Rage XL might be one of ATI's most sold graphics chips due to it being included in several million servers before it was discontinued.

[@PixelPipes]

Well that was some excellent research on the topic, and certainly far more in-depth than I've seen anyone else do. I'd definitely agree that the Rage Pro was the first truly competent card in the line, and one you really could game on with titles of the appropriate era. I know the pain of getting CIF to work too, when I was recording the The Art of Tech Demos video, the Knight's Doom demo wouldn't show the stone/knight transition properly with any driver I tried, until I just used Windows 98SE's built in driver lol. Of all things, that one worked flawlessly.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Thank you so much Nathan! I really had a hard time finding a lot; between ATI's awful marketing and ATI CIF's relative obscurity, I'm not sure how much is even out there. The Rage Pro definitely took the Rage line to a whole other level; everything I saw about the 3D Rage I is hilariously bad, and I kind of want one of those just out of sheer interest in how slow they are. Mach64s are solid in 2D at least. Ugh, yeah, CIF is just such a bear to get going; I legitimately did the same with 98SE's default driver for the demo, but most games were weird with it. Tomb Raider didn't run half the time, unless I used like 2 or 3 specific drivers. It's a cool API for sure, but not the most user-friendly one. I suppose, in that sense, it's no wonder it didn't last haha. Anyway, thank you again for all the kind words--it means a lot, especially coming from someone as knowledgeable and skilled as yourself!

[@LuisGuzmanJr]

The is the best video content on the ATI Rage Pro Turbo AGP I’ve come across. Thank you for the information. Well done!

[@RetroTechBytes]

Thank you so much for the kind words! I'm extremely glad to hear that this was informative! The Rage Pro Turbo AGP is a fun and abundant card and it's really pretty solid in CIF and D3D games. I'd say it's under-loved, that's for sure! No need to thank me at all, I'm just glad to be learning and sharing everyone! Thanks again for the extremely kind comment--I really do appreciate it!

[@badsectoracula]

Interesting video. One interesting thing about CIF (actually the full name is ATI3DCIF which literally means "ATI 3D C InterFace" - ATi wasn't very imaginative here :-P) is that the Tomb Raider 1 version that uses it is the only native Windows version of the game and someone made an OpenGL wrapper for it making it possible to play Tomb Raider 1 under modern OSes even with widescreen support, etc. But TBH i think by the time Rage Pro came out the era of proprietary 3D APIs was over - developers at the time were tired of having to implement support for multiple GPUs and some even were annoyed at Microsoft for making Direct3D instead of sticking with OpenGL (that they already had implemented anyway). Gamers nowadays have fond memories of Glide but at the time it was a form of vendor lock-in that only got traction because of the popularity of Voodoo and 3dfx's reluctance to make better drivers for the GPU agnostic APIs. The only saving grace for developers was that at least Glide was thoroughly documented whereas other APIs often had bad or even wrong documentation (the original 3D CIF for 3D Rage was also kinda laughable, though by the time 3D Rage Pro was released it got better but still not as good as Glide). Considering that the main appeal of Windows and DirectX was that game developers wouldn't have to code their own drivers for input, sound, video, etc anymore but instead could rely on a HAL that worked across hardware, these proprietary APIs were kinda regressive and it makes sense that they weren't used much. They did make sense in the earlier days though when there wasn't much of an alternative, but as soon as Direct3D and OpenGL became usable for making 3D games, it made more sense for ATI and others to target and promote that. After all they'd release their GPUs and have a library of games already able to use them instead of having to go after developers and convince them make games for their cards.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Really well said! Thanks for the kind words and for all this information. It's quite interesting to hear that this version of TR is the one that modern ports use--but it does make sense. I noticed that while testing, and figured that it was probably the only Windows-native version of TR that I'd tested! Yeah, the original CIF was a joke by comparison, but you're right about Glide being a lock-in, in that it was so popular and 3dfx just had their hold on the market. It's a shame that no other vendor's API went far. Even S3 MeTaL is fascinating, and S3TC sure provides some neat features for games like UT99! It makes you wonder if there'll ever be an alternative to DX12, be that something Nvidia decides to do, or AMD decides to do. Probably not, but I can see where DirectX is just that one, functional, all-in-one solution and that's too appealing to break from. Anyway, thanks for watching and for this super interesting comment! I always love learning stuff like this!

[@RiksRandomRetro]

Fascinating! I didn't know much about it but this was informative and entertaining. Great video!

[@RetroTechBytes]

Thank you so much Rik! I'm so glad that you enjoyed and found it entertaining! Truthfully, I'd only read of CIF on Vogons once, and just had to test it at some point. It was pretty neat to mess with, and I recommend it as a fun/obscure thing to do, especially if you've got time to burn. It is weird, though, and not at all well-documented or easy to run haha. I legitimately was so confused by that Turok footage where half of everything was missing. That's just how CIF is with a driver it doesn't like; and yet, in other games, that driver worked! Go figure. Anyway, thanks again, and thank you for the support!!

[@jikissgamer]

This card is pretty underrated, I had one of these in my PIII-933, just as a quick card for DOS games. It was great for the 2D signal but I knew nothing about CIF until I saw this video here. Once again I learned something new! Great work, WIll! Really enjoyed this.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey Rami, thank you as always for your support, my friend! Thank you too for the kind words! I'm so glad that you enjoyed--that's what matters most! They really are great cards and the 2D is really, really solid! I could see something like this and a Voodoo2 in a system around that era and it'd be solid for everything--DOS, 3D, 2D in 32-bit color. The Rage Pro line is really cool, and I'm glad that they're still easier to find than, say, a Riva 128ZX or TNT2 Ultra. They're cool, and with CIF, they're a blast! CIF is a pain to get going, but it's worth messing with! Anyway, thank you again, good friend!

[@Svein-Frode]

Superb video! Never knew about ATI's API before, and that Croc game looked awesome!

[@GameTechRefuge]

Man Croc looks great. Argonaut had the skills, if anyone was going make full use of the API, makes sense it would be them. The rage cards are real work horses, I keep two around as they never let you down when testing new retro builds or mainboards. Resident Evil 2 also runs great on it, so it gets bonus points from me just for that. Great vid.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching and for the support! Yeah, it really does! Croc was a blast. I played a good bit of it after recording. The only qualm I can even raise is that the camera controls are wonky, but they're not BAD per se. They definitely leveraged CIF to the max and pushed those cards to the limit, that's for sure. And oh, yeah, they're really great workhorses and the image quality is nice too! Thankfully, they're cheap and just do not die haha! Wow, I had no idea RE2 ran on it, but that makes sense. I'll have to give it a go. Thanks again for all the kind words!

[@upgrade1373]

As a radeon fan I appreciate the work you put into this!

[@classicvga2797]

Great Video! Very comprehensive and informative. I wasn't even aware of CIF API I mean I heard about it but never dig deeper to find out why it failed. Thx for in-depth explanation and comparison videos.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thank you so much! I'm so glad that you enjoyed it! ATI CIF really didn't get far, but it offered a lot. I wish that more games were backported to it or something. That would be kinda neat! But there's not much of a fanbase for CIF, unfortunately, and so it goes haha

[@SUCRA]

Great overview of the ATI Rage video card and the CIF API. I love seeing these alternatives to the mainstream cards, that I really don't know a lot about. So interesting how ATI managed to market this to the gaming and office markets at the same time, I don't think many video cards did that. Thanks for another great video, Will, great work!

[@RetroTechBytes]

Thank you so much Bruno! I really appreciate your kind words, my friend, and I'm glad that you enjoyed this video! I was blown away too--ATI managed to market this thing pretty well, but completely lost itself in failing to push CIF for whatever reason! CIF was GREAT in POD and Tomb Raider, and it was so fluid in Croc! It's a cool API and really fun to mess with. I do think that the Rage Pro line is underrated too--heck, the All-in-Wonders are still pretty nice DVRs and have solid features all around! ATI really made some nice products; it's a shame that most of their pre-Radeon cards are forgotten! Thank you again for all that you do, good friend, and thank you for your continued support and friendship!

[@BadManiac]

Great video, really interesting look at an underdog. But you forgot one of the main Voodoo 1 contenders. The PowerVR PCX cards. Really interesting cards, they beat the V1 in some games too. As for ATI, they have another underdog card the very next year, in 1998. The Rage Fury 32MB, based on the Rage 128 GL chip, readily beats both the venerable Riva TnT and a single Voodoo 2, yet no one seems to be talking about them and they can be had for peanuts online. Definitely recommend checking it out as well :)

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching! I am so glad to hear that you enjoyed! You are so right about PowerVR chips. Honestly, I'd love to find one some day, but they're dang expensive now and not quite easy to track down. That being said, they're really, really cool and offered a compelling alternative to the Voodoo 1 for sure. I actually have a Rage 128 Pro, but mine is the bandwidth-crippled 16MB version. I should probably grab a 32MB one, as I have to say that I was impressed with even the cut-down version of the card. I have to say that the image quality and 32-bit capabilities of the 128 are impressive, and the Rage line really ended on a great note haha!

[@RuruFIN]

Ah... the 3D Rage. My first 3D card was a 3D Rage Pro AGP2x and oh boy what a boost I got when I upgraded to a GF2 MX.

[@michaeldale837]

Great video. Good research, editing and discussion. Loved it!

[@RetroTechBytes]

Thank you so much for watching and for all the kind words and support! It really means a lot, and as someone who's just starting and only planning on constantly improving, I hope that you always feel the same about my vids!

[@kos232323]

Schönes Video. Die Karten waren früher wirklich in jedem zweiten PC verbaut.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Vielen Dank! Ich hoffe mein Video hat euch gefallen! Ich entschuldige mich für das gebrochene Deutsch, aber ich freue mich zu hören, dass Sie dieses Video sehen konnten!

[@enilenis]

I have accumulated many ATI cards from the 90's and early 2000's, but I don't think I used even one of them. Back in the old days I went with Matrox. ATI's All-In-Wonder had some potential appeal, but I instead bought Mystique with a Rainbow Runner addon (TV Tuner). The deal breaker was native DOS support on the video output. On a Matrox, I could have a system boot straight to DOS and provide signal, I could hook up to a VCR, to record gameplay. For me, Matrox was a better DOS card, since I played a lot of old games. Dug though my retro boxes and found these cards so far: Rage XL, Rage 128 Pro, Rage IIC, Xpert 2000 Ultra, Radeon 7500, Radeon X300SE, Radeon X800XL, Radeon 9700 Pro, Radeon 9800SE. I don't even know how they perform relatively.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching! Yeah, Matrox were the kings of 2D and their 3D really picked up with the G200 line. And by really picked up, I mean that they were a fantastic option through-and-through, and that's just how it was. The Mystique was a cool card, and I actually have one of the 4MB models that I pair with a Voodoo 1. It's an awesome card, but the limited 3D acceleration held it back. I definitely see what you mean though about DOS support on the output being an issue; that would be enough to just pick up a Matrox easily! And oh, wow, that's an awesome selection! The Rage IIC and XL are the slowest, with the XL being a die-shrunk Rage. Both can handle CIF, though. The Xpert 2000 and Rage 128 Pro are the same GPU, and both are great, roughly equal to a TNT2, and faster in 32-bit color. The Radeons are all great, with the 7500 being fast, and the 9700 Pro being legendary (shout out to Nathan from PixelPipes and his awesome vid on it, if you haven't seen it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHXNgounl5ychq8). The 9800SE is probably a little slower than the 9700. Not too sure about the others, but the X800XL should be the fastest. Anyway, thanks for watching, and I hope that you enjoyed!

[@enilenis]

@@RetroTechBytes Thank you for all that useful information. Always enjoying your videos. These days when I build retro rigs, I go for older Nvidia cards, because I have a lot more of them, and drivers are never an issue, unlike with ATI, where every card has its own mix of software that it likes. I like Voodoo's and have about a dozen of them also, all the way up to 5500 AGP, but I only got to experience them couple of years back, for the first time. I remember having "Glide" function greyed out in games, and wondering, what I was missing, when playing on Matrox. As it turned out, aside from fancy lens flares, not that much really.

[@okramediev404]

ATi Rage Pro has Tv-out support in dos, tv.exe it was as i remember correctly. Rage Pro Tweaker package has it, i have used it with Xpert@Play (Rage Pro) card and it works. :)

[@RetroGPUsandBuilds]

Once again I learned new things from a gpujune video 😁 👍

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thank you for watching and for all of the kind words! I'm so glad to hear it! I have to say that I learned a lot too while working on this and it's really been a blast. ATI CIF is a really fun API worth checking out!

[@matthewday7565]

My GPU June is choosing between a S3 Savage 4 (my old card, and I thought it was dead but just didn't like the monitor) and the the Quadro NVS 280 (FX5500) that I got a good deal on (same kind of price that people were asking for Rage). System it will go in is a P133 with 48MB of RAM, which I hope to run as Win98/DOS Other options, the Trio 64 onboard (great for pure DOS) or a Matrox Millennium 2 I had spare (which falls short of running "I've got some balls" in Win98. Now Windows API wise, I believe the Sav 4 is at DX6, while the FX5500 is at DX9 - While my original Win98 era took me through the Sav 4, Rage 128, Geforce 2MX and finally a GF4 MX440. Hmm. Also got some other machines fighting for my attention, like an Athlon XP and a Geforce 4 4200 that I need to test - maybe I should make the P133 a hot DOS machine, and the other one a hotter Win98 than I ever dreamed of at the time

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching! Those are all great choices! I'd be interested to see a bunch of those tests. The P133 and 48MB of RAM should be great for testing some early DOS stuff and that sounds like fun! I'd be curious to see how far those cards would go too, especially with that CPU. The Athlon XP is a classic, though, and I'd be interested to see that too!

[@ChinFu535]

Nice Video! I've heard of the ATI API before, but never saw gameplay of it. Doesn't look bad. I have a lot of Rage cards but never tested it. Does the Rage 128 still support CIF?

[@RetroTechBytes]

Thanks for watching and for the support! It's not bad at all, that's for sure. A bit dark, and perhaps kinda a pain to get working, but it's halfway decent overall. The Rage 128 does not support CIF. CIF support ended with the Rage Pro Turbo/3D Rage Pro AGP 2X, but there were/are other cards that support it in the same vein that provide decent performance like the Rage LT Pro, Rage XL, and a few others. Here's a link with them all: gona.mactar.hu/ATI3DCIF/

[@anomaly95]

My first real 3D card was an ATI Xpert98. It worked fine for Quake2/HL, but by the time Quake3 came out, it really struggled.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching! Yeah, the Xpert98/Rage Pro is a great card, but, by the time of Quake 3, it definitely would have started to show its age. Gotta say, though, the 8MB of RAM sure did future proof this thing quite a bit! Anyway, thanks for checking out my vid, I hope that you enjoyed it!

[@modernandretrogaming]

Great work with that card, you showed similar games to me at my video, at least POD worked for you. For me POD don't want to launch on my testing pc with that card. I like that card a lot, it can do a lot which you will see later at my videos how much really that card can do. Thank you for showing history and information about that card. My Rage Pro have "Turbo" written on gpu.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thank you so much good friend! I was surprised I could even get CIF working, honestly. These drivers and games are a nightmare to get running without some trial and error. POD was problematic, but seemed to run when I messed with the drivers and downgraded a bit! I'm with you on the card, though. It's an awesome one and I'm excited to see where you can take this testing it to the max! Thank you for all that you do, and thank you for your kind words and your support!

[@modernandretrogaming]

@Ali Cuntë I solved that some time ago. Game just needed patch for my Athlon XP to recognize that cpu as older one. After applying cpu patch game started normally, POD version was probably 2.1. I used 4.10.2330 driver for my card. Here you can see running POD on my card: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqXJYmioqbZgbLs

[@twood1130]

What version of the drivers were you using? Croc keeps crashing on my system.

[@vgamuseum]

Nice video, btw accidentaly i choosed Rage Pro Turbo as well for my next video. But as competitor of other card, which will be main star.... Thats because it have very similar performance to Voodoo 1, but also support 32bit colors and higher resolutions thanks to bigger memory. And works on even fastest cpu's unlike bugged voodoo 1. Btw one small correction, 1st ati rage didn't competed against Voodoo 1, but more like with S3 Virge. Voodoo came many months later. I have theory that CIF was created because Direct3D wasn't available or was too fresh, so ati needed their own api, to be sure (almost all 1st gen cards had their own api). And when they realised that D3D will make it, they abandoned CIF as no more needed.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching and for the support! I just wanted to say that I am a HUGE fan of your channel and your testing! It's an honor to hear from you directly! I will have to check out your next video for sure! It's true that the Rage Pro is just a great card and super flexible, and it's a shame that it doesn't get more love. It's so underrated! But hey, yeah, thank you for catching that--you are very right. The Voodoo 1 really was a next-generation chip by comparison to the first Rage! It's sad that CIF was abandoned, but it's a solid, solid API for sure!

[@kylejones8392]

Never heard of CIF! Is it related to the RAVE driver stuff seen on the Rage 128 in Macintosh computers?

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching! RAVE isn't something I'm too familiar with, unfortunately, but I do know that, being a Rage 128 feature, it's definitely not directly related to CIF. It might be similar, though, as the Rage 128s don't support CIF, but Apple/ATI could've developed some proprietary features for them. I hope someone could chime in on this--I'd love to learn more myself! Thanks again for the support!

[@kylejones8392]

@@RetroTechBytes I figured it out! It isn't related to CIF. RAVE is a Mac proprietary QuickDraw 3D low-level driver. It just so happens that during the time one would see anything about RAVE that Apple/Macintosh computers all ran ATI products.

[@ChadTi99]

Great in depth review! Any tips for getting Croc to work? I think I grabbed the version from archive.org but it keeps crashing on start.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching and thank you for the support! As for Croc, I recommend this version: archive.org/details/croc_20190915. It seemed to work just fine and it's the original release! There's even an unofficial patch for it if you want to use this with a 3dfx card, but using that patch removes the CIF compatibility. The patch is here: community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/1836-croc-unofficial-update/

[@ChadTi99]

@@RetroTechBytes Thanks! Did you run it on Windows 95 or 98?

[@RetroTechBytes]

98SE, but I am sure that 95B works too with that version as I was just running it on my test bench for my next vid!

[@RetroTechBytes]

Also I used this driver: gona.mactar.hu/ATI3DCIF/drivers/w82474en.zip

[@chrisducati26]

Great Review!! You forgot to mention the best version of wipeout on pc the ati 3d cif edition

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thank you so much for watching! Funny enough, I wanted to show Wipeout really, really bad, but I just could NOT find a copy of it anywhere. Any idea where I could even get one? It seems so much harder to find than the standard DOS version!

[@chrisducati26]

@@RetroTechBytes www.mediafire.com/file/izzl6djq4cbvd2a/wipeATI-proper.rar/file

[@CoreyDeWalt]

Ive got one of these on an all in wonder card. where did you get drivers for yours?

[@amirpourghoureiyan1637]

Vogons or PhilsComputerLab might have them

[@RetroTechBytes]

I used this link: gona.mactar.hu/ATI3DCIF/. All drivers here should work for the various Rage products, and the compatibility with various versions of CIF are listed! The only thing to note is that if you want to run the Rage demos in CIF, it's worth using the built-in Windows 98SE driver and copying the CIF .dll to the System folder! I hope that this helps! If there's anything else I can help with, please do let me know!

[@fungo6631]

7:27 Z buffering was often just a fill rate killer anyways. Higher end N64 games would often just drop it for a performance boost.

[@amirpourghoureiyan1637]

Makes you wonder if there's a way to change the gamma levels for CIF, Tomb Raider and Mechwarrior don't need much adjusting to look right. Shame that they didn't maintain the driver stack for the entire Rage series, would've loved to try it out on my R128 Pro.

[@RetroTechBytes]

There probably is, and I bet it would make a world of difference! The R128 Pro should've really been given the opportunity to handle CIF--it would've shredded! Either way, if you can find a Rage Pro Turbo, I highly recommend messing with it, if you're interested! Thanks for watching, I hope that you enjoyed!

[@amirpourghoureiyan1637]

@@RetroTechBytes I'll add it to the list, always room for another ATI card :) The vids have been great, you've got a real knack for this - keep up the good work!

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, I hope you enjoy it! I’d love to hear your thoughts when you grab one! And thank you so incredibly much for the kind words and support! It means a heck of a lot more than you know! I’m always looking to keep improving, learning, and having some fun!

[@jeremygregorio7472]

One thing that really hurt these cards is that oems would sell lower end versions of the card without telling their users they were the lower end versions. I have an ATI rage pro 2 it was actually a Mach 64 and found this out when I installed Linux and it correctly identified it as a Mach 64. In hindsight I probably could have sued

[@retropcscotland4645]

I like my 3drage pro with CIF api. I have the original Tomb Raider with the ATi original CIF enabled 3d patch and it runs better than the emulated 3dfx dosbox version. Can't beat real hardware.

[@RetroTechBytes]

Hey, thanks for watching! Yeah, CIF is the way to run TR! It's quite fluid, looks great, and I agree that hardware > emulation in a lot of cases! It's more fun to mess with, troubleshoot, and just overall play with too!

[@drzeissler]

RAVE is much better!