Dalit Researchers Fight for Meritocracy

Rajiv Malhotra and students and faculty from IIT Bombay and NITIE discuss Harvard scholar Ajanta Subramanian’s thesis that IITs perpetuate cultural and specifically caste privilege through their meritocracy system. A Dalit scholar joins in discussing a counter narrative based on metrics from the actual data on students.
Snakes in the Ganga - www.snakesinthe...
Varna Jati Caste - www.varnajatica...
The Battle For IIT's - www.battleforii...
Power of future Machines - www.poweroffutu...
10 heads of Ravana - www.tenheadsofr...
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[@Seevawonderloaf]

Massive shoutout to Naveen who asked what have the SC/ST/OBC alumni done for the community. I want to see more of this guy!

[@sasidharank7953]

May I know what the Upper caste have done for the betterment of the poor among their respective communities please.

[@Ganguly0106]

​@sasidharank7953 When UCs do charity, they do it irrespective of caste. There is an alumni network of Narendrapur, Ramakrishna mission, one of the best schools, where the alumni pick n chose good students from poor n groom them for admission. If there is intercaste mingling anywhere or marraige, it is b'cos of UCs. India is 55% LCs, brahmin population is less than 5% of the entire population, it is a minority in itself, if they r successful without reservation or economics then LCs sitting in a privileged position need to introspect that even after so much of handouts why r they not able to outperform UCs. P. S. Most brahmins in India r poor.

[@vaghelas4719]

Even they don't stand up against such allegation. One girls stood up against such claims and defended India

[@sasidharank7953]

@@Ganguly0106 Dada, I have many points to make. But let me be brief. Please note that my comment was in the context of IITs. How many UC candidates are directly supported free of cost to enter into IITs by the so called well to do UCs. Widening the context how many UCs are there in the Civil Services? The dalit candidate present there in the discussion raised the question and need for Dalit seniors supporting their brethren. In my opinion we should see to it that the Hindus get united in the larger interest of every Indian irrespective of religion. Peace is possible only through Hindu Dharma. The major obstacle in the way of Hindu unity is the politicized caste discrimination. I don't enjoy any reservation myself but wouldn't feel bitter if the historically oppressed get a chance at my cost in the larger interest of Sanatana Dharma. Historical wrong cannot be undone in decades. We should apply creamy layer filtration to see to it the benefits reach everybody down below. Hope you understand. Dhonyobad.❤️

[@anantmvyas8271]

vāha! uttama! ati uttama! वाह! उत्तम! अति उत्तम! @Naveen ji. Please do not forget to also include parental/grandparental aspirations too irrespective of their education. This applies to all jātis. Vandé Mātaram and Jai Hind 👌🕉🇮🇳🇬🇧🙏

[@Seevawonderloaf]

Ideological war against merit is absolutely a Western import. Curious how poor UC are still able to rise above and compete but still get told they are privileged. I would like to explore the privilege of the Harvard elite, the privelege of Western import and those who claim to know our traditions better than us. Dalit, Brahmin, OBC - we are all one but we should fight against the Harvard elite which si the new oppressor

[@sivaratnamasabaratnam8946]

Rather a Marxist portion of western import, started from French revolution!

[@pjane9231]

Mapping of European Castes (Feudal system) and racialism on colonial population.Christian origins of Serfdom (caste) and Slavery Noah the patriarch of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Noah became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth at the age of 500 years. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father Noah while he laid drunk and naked in his tent and he told it to his two brothers who cover up their father. Noah awoke from his wine, and knew that his youngest son had seen him naked. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. (For His own mistake and mistake of His Son he curses the children of Ham to be slaves of Shem and his future generations. And he said, Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.

[@pjane9231]

When the first child is born in a family he will be most of the time ahead of the siblings firstly by obtaining the better and higher resources from mothers body and subsequently he will be ahead in most of the developmental phases unless and until artificial intervention is made... This is the natural mechanism of evolution of Hiarchy... Evolution of Hiarchy is a natural phenomenon it can be partly attributed to luck and partly to natural and environmental factors... Those who complain don't complain on the basis of merit but as a complex survival tactics to compete and get ahead by crying foul so that too is absolutely fair... and those who are already ahead they'll have to up their own game their own tactics... It is a intraspecies competition...

[@blastergoon4185]

@@pjane9231 your spelling of hierarchy is wrong as well as your thesis. Obviously social hierarchy existed in every society but the basis of caste based purity in every echelon of this indic hierarchy is discriminatory

[@pjane9231]

Off course what is wrong is wrong bur their were worst models of casteism discrimination and otherism elsewhere including Europe... Castes and races does have an evolutionary perspective but many times the evolutionary perspective is lost into the background of culture and relegion reverse racism or revese castism or efforts to erase vibrant and existing races is also against evolutionary principles...

[@ChidVanhi]

We have entered an age where every crime is being judged based on the background of the victim and assailant. These armchair intellectuals from Ivy league Institutes pick up these cases if they suit to their narrative and use'em to beat Hinduism. Recently, a Dalit professor quoted an incident from Tamil Nadu and connected it to central government's oppressive policies against lower castes. When one of the audience pointed out that the perpetrator was a DMK leader, that Prof started accused the questioner & called him upper-caste chauvinist.

[@pjane9231]

When the first child is born in a family he will be most of the time ahead of the siblings firstly by obtaining the better and higher resources from mothers body and subsequently he will be ahead in most of the developmental phases unless and until artificial intervention is made... This is the natural mechanism of evolution of Hiarchy... Evolution of Hiarchy is a natural phenomenon it can be partly attributed to luck and partly to natural and environmental factors... Those who complain don't complain on the basis of merit but as a complex survival tactics to compete and get ahead by crying foul so that too is absolutely fair... and those who are already ahead they'll have to up their own game their own tactics... It is a intraspecies competition...

[@philosophyandconspiracy1643]

And this is stupid tactic ,which will be the doom of us as a species​@pjane9231

[@Wilnina]

The people sitting in the armchair as you are pointed out from Ivy leagues also minorities somewhere sometime. Now they are trying to help on how to bring India out of this mess that is created by British and reservation didn't help much as one can never remove the social stigma when person is poor and if person is poor then caste doesn't matter as there are equal justice for upper caste individuals if they are poor. They are beaten up by system as well society. But why we aren't able to remove this mess because there are people like you who are always eager to keep problem alive and even bring those people down who are offering solutions

[@chidunarayanan]

Important to note that there is no homogeneous SC/ST community or UC community in Indian. The jaatis are all regional. An SC from Tamilnadu may not connect well with an SC from Uttarakhand (same goes for UCs).

[@iamyou8994]

Because Jati is simply an occupation that people from that specific Jati are engaged in?

[@Chen-gl9hm]

Even their economy mic stages are different in different stage. In Rajasthan the famous STs are land owners. and they call themselves Jamindaar .

[@deepikasingh9374]

Yeah we don't have baniyas in uttrakhand...even the dalits are only lohars and drummers..even in our tribal areas they have a different composition. Our obc is basically sunars or goldsmith😅 or people who don't fit in varna. My aunts are married with goldsmiths.. they are well off. A brahmin in UK is poorer than obc

[@balsharma709]

The castism in India is itself a big research issue and needs attetion and debate in depth . Whether the benefit is reaching to actual needy or being eaten by leaders greedy .

[@videolover1489]

Castism in India benefiting to few politically and finically so I agree with your statement. Castism in India itself need a attention but attention by Indian.

[@kbmnair2182]

Yes it's a very thoughtful exercise and can lead to understand the issues and ultimately end up in the development of the society without any prejudice.

[@sunilkumardupakuntla8837]

When a family who availed reservation and got jobs how their children are performing? If not why not? Do they really need reservation after one generation has taken the benefit and settled in life? They should now be able to support the successive genreations like any other castes who do not qualify for reservations. Naveen has a very valid question. What SC/ST/OBC alluminies have done for their community for their upliftment? Why can't we have such alluminies setup in all areas and bring in culture to support the growth and reduce burden on the govt. We should slowly move to a system that only respect meritocricy.

[@Ramkumar-uj9fo]

It is great after reading Snakes in the Ganga. Rajiv ji has cleared many doubts .

[@durastar2024]

More such discussions & debates required. Also we need to get rid of continuous reservation policy despite moving up the ladder so that it goes to all deserving rather than kith and kin of Chara Chor Lallu & the Lal topi wala Yadav. 🙏🙏 Jai Hind Jai Bharat

[@manmathsharma840]

Excellent discussion अद्भुत Dhanyawad Rajeevji Dhanyawad Infinity foundation Pranam to all participants 🙏👍

[@sasidharank7953]

Please bring in the concept of creamy layer among SC/ST also. Give some consideration to people who are from rural background. Have bridge course both in English and Technology. Please also provide mentoring/counseling for the needy underprivileged.

[@darshanpatel9006]

Why only ST/SC? Why not all rural background & creamy layer!

[@pjane9231]

When the first child is born in a family he will be most of the time ahead of the siblings firstly by obtaining the better and higher resources from mothers body and subsequently he will be ahead in most of the developmental phases unless and until artificial intervention is made... This is the natural mechanism of evolution of Hiarchy... Evolution of Hiarchy is a natural phenomenon it can be partly attributed to luck and partly to natural and environmental factors... Those who complain don't complain on the basis of merit but as a complex survival tactics to compete and get ahead by crying foul so that too is absolutely fair... and those who are already ahead they'll have to up their own game their own tactics... It is a intraspecies competition...

[@unknown_G_007]

How can u put a Creamy layer concept in SC / ST.. Will it stop the discrimination on the basis of Caste .... .. First end discrimination. Then come with these colonial fancy words... I have seen Rich SC/st also facing discrimination........ Just grow your Etiquettes i mean learn how to behave with humans... So called General Caste people don't know how to behave with Humans.....

[@pjane9231]

Reservation politics is not about social justice, but it is about reverse casteism reverse racism and reverse injustice...

[@SarojSingh-nq5ql]

​@@unknown_G_007 Tell me in which school, college, University, hospital, airport, bus stop, railway station, temples or tourist spot u people are not allowed. Now everyone is allowed everywhere. So I don't know about which discrimination u are talking about. I don't get it the communities who openly gave genocidal calls and r@ pe threats to gen and obc category people have hundreds of channels to abuse them have aduacity to play victim card and blame game.

[@NatrajChaturvedi]

Politics is at the root of all this. Problem can not be addressed until that is not addressed imo. Politicians have to be educated, pressured or whatever to stop with pushing this madness.

[@Dinanath-iy6yc]

Attack on meritocracy is breaking India force.

[@spg6651]

I liked this open style discussion model rather than speeches .. This is really excellent way sir .. This format gave really workable problem statement with objective function to be proved from data statistically .. These are pure Hypothesis testing which can be done scientifically . 1. Take out the surnames and just put their first name and with scores .. Example : Suresh , Ramesh , Atul , Rahul , Shwetha , Abdul, steev , Param, Mallikarjun, Shobha etc.. No surname at all .. and there should not be even any secondary hint in the name ( for example -- Ramaswamy is identified as Ramaswamy Iyer . In such case take only RAM )

[@Wilnina]

Excellent work sir! We need more and mor engagement under your leadership to fix our society. Giving up now on political leaders.

[@ajaynikalje3857]

How meritocracy can work when all people starts from different lines for example cream class study from best and expensive schools where as poor, socially backward people study from any cheap schools. How you will compare meritocracy for the teachers and staff from those schools. Later, somehow people from poor class or socially backward caste completes +2 then you entrance exam to enter into medical or engineering and tutions for them are completely private and govt doesn't provide any coaching for this then what is meritocracy of such education system and govt. So, first bring meritocracy to systems and education system. Thats why I say meritocracy is a scam to just provide why poor is always poor and why he can't have more opportunities than privileged people. We should focus more on privileges than meritocracy.

[@enlightenedvirtigo4896]

They were discussing about Meritocracy and Dalits issues in IITs but had no Dalit representation among them. Wow as Modi ji once said: Hypocrisy ki bhi sima hoti hai🌝

[@ex-muslim--zakirnalayak4703]

Why didn't they participate???

[@inspiregrowth9022]

I wonder how you came to that conclusion. I can't recognize anyone beyond what they are saying.

[@rationalbeing6797]

Upper Caste is just similar to Abrahamic idea of "Our God is the True God". Sanatana Dharma is known for continuous reforms but has failed when it comes to Caste system. Can somebody explain why is the caste system or even the Varna System relevant in 2023?

[@Robin-il4ev]

As per my observation , The caste system and Varna system doesn't hold any relevance, I would repeat doesn't hold any relevance. I am from a very small village and I haven't seen any caste based persecution except people are still hesitant to marry their children in other caste. This doesn't mean they only So called upper caste parents don't want to marry their children to other so called lower caste. Even So called Lower caste people also want to marry in their caste only. I have witnessed atleast 4-5 Inter caste marriages in my Village. I haven't seen any violence over those marriage except a little resistance at the beginning. No one prevents anyone for attending schools , temples and other religious processions

[@parjanyashukla176]

​@@Robin-il4ev Yes it doesn't. Guess who institutionalized it in India? The British during the post-1857 period. After the 1857 war, they forced all Hindus to register their castes and all Muslims to register their sects. Sikhs were cleverly separated out from the Hindu fold. All others were registered as "tribes". Before 1947, the "Scheduled Castes" were actually called "Depressed Classes". Then all of this was put into the first Government of India Act, 1935. Finally the fake "Republic Day" was instituted in 1950 to give the impression that the Constitution was newly created after independence.

[@suyashgolu]

One of the best discussion I have ever watched on this subject।। Good arguments and points raised। It's requirment of the time । 👍🙏

[@VedaSay]

Excellent discussion. Excellent point brought forward by Naveen. My experience with reservation is, a general category, Took my school friend, who is SC, to fill his medical seat form. The form needed cast certificate stamp on it. The peon standing outside the govt office cabin asked for Rs 50, this was 1997. My friend did not had a paisa on him. I had Rs 7. My friend asked the peon his cast and apparently both were same cast. One being told that my friends father also is a peon, the person there responded "he should work harder to earn money, nothing is free here." Yes the person had to just put a stamp on a admission form. Thus the cast system ensured both of us could not apply for the medical seat. :)

[@jai6196]

Very high quality discussion... The PhD student at the end asked a very thought provoking question...

[@dineshgupta-ir9zi]

IIT are a living example of breaking down of cultural capital. If you score well in STEM subjects and compete after studying hard for some years, you get into IITs. You break through all the cultural and class barriers. After studying for one or two years in IITs you break the barrier of the advantage of English language. What matters is your score in STEM subjects and nothing else. There is no class or caste discrimination in IITs. There is open competition. No body is bothered about your class, caste or back ground. IITs are truely the places of excellence. They are a success story worldwide. This excellence capital should be preserved at all costs. IITs are gems on the crown of India and indians are proud of it.

[@parjanyashukla176]

IITs were created by Western powers to create intellectual coolies out of the most meritorious youth. They do nothing meaningful or original, and the only single reason for prestige is their students.

[@vishwadhar9072]

The idea of selecting samples with comparable JEE scores is excellent, but factors such as family's financial status should also be taken into account as meritorious persons may be compelled to sacrifice their career progression and deaccelerate due to family commitments. Such deacceleration could happen to persons from any community and must be eliminated for meaningful data.

[@muralidhararao5079]

Thanks!

[@deepand1798]

Debating on reservation is futile without debating caste system, brahmanism.

[@adarsh8731]

Why the hell your people accepted this system 3000 years ago 😂

[@deepand1798]

@@adarsh8731 It was imposed not accepted.

[@adarsh8731]

@@deepand1798 just 3 % of the people controlled the nation for straight 3000 years And nobody did nothing 🤨 No sign of United rebellion

[@adarsh8731]

@@deepand1798 Then why no case of rebellion???

[@deepand1798]

@@adarsh8731 read about bhima koregaon war

[@TaroonExpress]

Improve improve improve, we all are humenbeings Where you reach is your identity

[@korathmathew]

This mention of upper caste and lower caste is in itself the main issue. Caste and religion should be removed from all documents in India.

[@Morpheus_neo_trinity]

Rightly said and that solves pretty much majority of the problems. I also don't understand why those who want reservations to end don't talk about obliterating caste system as well.

[@shishya16]

Give Dalits the best of English knowledge, confidence booster & communication soft skills. ..... do this right from primary school.....in 20 years we can change bharat

[@Yadav_PK]

Great work... always great to hear Rajiv ji

[@ssnsarmachalla7352]

Decades back itself H'ble Supreme Court speeking on Reservations in Education said that EVEN DALITS SHOULD PROVE MERIT

[@pjane9231]

Mapping of European Castes (Feudal system) and racialism on colonial population. Britishers played political and administrative class against the peasants, manual laborers and traders in order to gain and exploit the services and properties of all. Feudalism, also known as the feudal system, was the combination of the legal, economic, military, cultural and political customs that flourished in medieval Europe between the 9th and 15th centuries. Broadly defined, it was a way of structuring society. It is about the relationships that were derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour. African communities of central and southern and western Africa were economically and politically less complex mostly associated with hunting and gathering social hierarchies were not as distinct in close nit tribal affiliations hence racial differences could serve better to discriminate and divide the people on racial lines which were more prominent lines of divisions for close nit groups. British and Europeans employed the techniques and methods of racial profiling to discriminate divide and exploit people. Racial profiling techniques involved the process of measuring facial and bodily features or physiological traits and issuing them with racial identity cards on the basis of racial profiling techniques. Western colonizers implemented race relations which then manifested into fear psychosis that became the driving force for the genocide Britishers infused artificial sense of racial superiority and supremacy into the administrative and political classes convincing them of being racially superior almost close to British and other fairer races. They exported and introduced versions of European feudal system to exploit and discriminate against the peasants, manual laborers and traders. They convinced the political and administrative classes to work for them as they were racially their equivalent and ment to rule and exploit the other classes. The concepts and practices of European social hierarchy or caste system was introduced and strengthened in Indian society. Demonizing Abrahamic laws serving the purpose of British were introduced into Indian legal and administration system. Until Mughal Era the zamindars were not proprietors resulting in less productivity and revenue collections. The East India Company under Lord Cornwallis, realising this, made Permanent Settlement in 1793 with the zamindars and made them proprietors of their land in return for a fixed annual rent and left them independent for the internal affairs of their estates. British introduced a version of European Feudal or Zamindari system to tax and exploit all classes very heavily. The term feudal has also been applied to non-Western societies, in which institutions and attitudes similar to those of medieval Europe are perceived to have prevailed. During this colonial era, a cash crop economy was introduced in Africa and India, and this was administered through harsh methods that further alienated the King and his chiefs from the rest of the population. Richard Abels notes that "Western Civilization and World Civilization textbooks now shy away from the term 'feudalism'." instead of looking at similarities, specialists attempting comparative analysis concentrate on fundamental differences. Ultimately, critics say, the many ways the term feudalism has been used have deprived it of specific meaning, leading some historians and political theorists to reject it as a useful concept for understanding society. In colonies the political and administrative classes were told that they were racially superior and will receive equivalent treatment from the British in exchange of the taxes and revenue obtained from the exploitation of the other lowly classes. On the other hand they used the Christian missionaries to tell the other lower classes that the cause of their exploitation was their own upper class or the political and administrative elite while the Christians and their colonial masters are working for their liberation however the truth was otherwise. Except for converting and helping a handful of people colonial masters and the Church did nothing to help their subjects but continued with its policy and doctrine of exploitation, slavery and uprooting natives through their policy of terra nullius. Through their calculated approach of stick and carrot reward and punishment they succeeded in dividing and exploiting the people. Structure of European Feudal System Pope and Church (Towards the end of 14th century Pope and Church emerged as the most powerful) Lord paramount / Territorial lord Tenant-in-chief Mesne lord Lord of the manor / Overlord / Vogt / Liege lord Esquire / Gentleman / Landed gentry Franklin / yeoman / Retinue / Vavasour Free tenant / Husbandman Serf / Villein / Bordar / Cottar Domestic servant Vagabond Slave Christian origins of Serfdom (caste) and Slavery Noah the patriarch of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Noah became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth at the age of 500 years. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father Noah while he laid drunk and naked in his tent and he told it to his two brothers who cover up their father. Noah awoke from his wine, and knew that his youngest son had seen him naked. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. (For His own mistake and mistake of His Son he curses the children of Ham to be slaves of Shem and his future generations. And he said, Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Serfdom Unlike slaves, serfs could not be bought, sold, or traded individually though they could, depending on the area, be sold together with land. It was a condition of debt bondage and indentured servitude with similarities to and differences from slavery, which developed during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages in Europe and lasted in some countries until the mid-19th century. Serfs were often required not only to work on the lord's fields, but also in his mines and forests and to labour to maintain roads. The manor formed the basic unit of feudal society, and the lord of the manor and the villeins, and to a certain extent the serfs, were bound legally The kholops in Russia, by contrast, could be traded like regular slaves, could be abused with no rights over their own bodies, could not leave the land they were bound to, and could marry only with their lord's permission. A peasant is a pre-industrial agricultural laborer or a farmer with limited land-ownership, especially one living in the Middle Ages under feudalism and paying rent, tax, fees, or services to a landlord. In Europe, three classes of peasants existed: non-free slaves, semi-free serfs, and free tenants. Peasants might hold title to land outright (fee simple), or by any of several forms of land tenure, among them socage, quit-rent, leasehold, and copyhold. The relative position of peasants in Western Europe improved greatly after the Black Death had reduced the population of medieval Europe in the mid-14th century, resulting in more land for the survivors and making labor more scarce. In the wake of this disruption to the established order, A large number of serfs after the death of lords themselves became lords and masters as a result due to scarcity of labour it became more productive for many laborers to demand wages and thus began the quest to bring in more slaves from far off lands helping many serfs to rise in status. Thus began the era of colonialism Although a large number of slaves were brought into Europe from different parts of the worlds mostly from Africa and Asia but the Church made it sure to keep the Christian lands and Christian bloods pure. This was done by castrating male slaves so that they could not reproduce and by killing colored off springs of female slaves. The killing of slaves after baptizing them was considered as a great service to them so that upon resurrection they can go to heaven. Untouchability in Europe The Cagots were not an ethnic nor a religious group. They spoke the same language as the people in an area and generally kept the same religion as well, with later researchers remarking that there was no evidence to mark the Cagots as distinct from their neighbours. Their only distinguishing feature was their descent from families long identified as Cagots. Few consistent reasons were given as to why they were hated. Cagots were prohibited from selling food or wine, touching food in the market, working with livestock,[2] or entering mills.[55] The Cagots were often restricted to craft trades including those of carpenter,[23][47][56] masons, woodcutters, wood carvers,[57] coopers,[46][58] butcher,[59] and rope-maker.[9][60] Due to association with woodworking crafts, Cagots often worked as the operators of instruments of torture and execution, as well as making the instruments themselves.[58][46][26] Such professions may have perpetuated their social ostracisation

[@patibandaanwarkumar1755]

Gurrapu Naveen from Hyderabad concluded this debate with factual argument, Naveen argument is summary to this whole debate.

[@smdave1940]

How much weightage of the tendency of a student in the subject, plays its role, need to be worked out, caste-wise with having equal merit. Actually this plays significant role.

[@pallavibhabhra3942]

Merit is merit, when you promote mediocrity in your life all you do is start a backward journey. Anyone who is meritorious and talented should get preference cutting across the boundaries of castes.

[@vipstervipster5002]

The real problem is that people , who are not competent enough to be in IIT's are allowed on courses because they belong to a lower caste. The real solution to this problem is to, only allow people entry on the courses, based ONLY on merit. What this will do is give equal opportunities to everone in India. This is how, it works in the west and they give financial aid to people based on means testing family income, if thier income is low they get financial aid. Indians are creating problems for themselves by giving quotas based purely on religion for muslims, or lower caste. This nonsense needs to stop and base it on merit and financial aid to people less able to afford, IIT's.

[@Morpheus_neo_trinity]

Well west doesn't have a system as complex as caste system. It had racism but blacks today are in a better position than their ancestors. Not saying that racism no longer exists. It always will and so does caste discrimination but the severity of Indian caste system is ridiculous compared to racism. Most of the prominent positions are held by upper castes and that's a staggering 70 - 85 %. Almost all the menial jobs such as Manuel scavenging and street cleaning is either done by OBC or SC/STs with Dalits being the majority participants. You can also compare the massive land holdings obtained through suppression, subjugation or either earned or inherited through their ancestors opposed to peanuts of what lower rungs of the social strata owns. Manual scavenging is still alive in northern parts of India and despite being fully aware of it no government has taken necessary steps in obliterating this vile practice. You are only looking at one side of the problem by drawing similiar lines for both economic condition and socio economic conditions while both are not the same, social prosperity is an important parameter that needs to be addressed. Generals students have a net to fall back on, their parents are educated compared to first generation Dalits in most of the cases. I understand the pain generals go through but it pains me even more to see them just talking about ending reservations without ever talking about obliterating caste system along with it. If caste system is obliterated you will be suprised to see how many people will give up reservations. Discrimination is what scares them into latching on to reservations.

[@vipstervipster5002]

@@Morpheus_neo_trinity Reservation is the biggest crime being committed in India. People who study , have merit are not given places and totally incompetent people get college places to study based on religion or caste.

[@dineshgupta-ir9zi]

I refuse to believe that people from lower castes are less intellectually in any way in comparison to those from the higher castes. Human mind is a very powerful instrument. All men are created equal. Social conditioning cannot make it less equal. You have to fight back if there is any discrimination of any kind in any society. You have to overcome and find a way to solve any financial or any other problems. Life is a constant struggle and there are no easy answers. Those who manage to get into IITs are a privileged lot. Work hard to prove your worth and prove your detractors wrong. In today's contemporary India, if you have the grit and determination than these caste discriminations if any will melt away. Simultaneously we should train our students in dharmic framework. Discipline, work ethics, soft skills, inner engineering, outer engineering, code of conduct, compliance to the rules, work ethics. Etc etc. parents don't teach it, relegion doesn't teach. Academic institutions must teach it. Students must be made internally strong so that they can manage themselves well.

[@subhashbhagwat7411]

As a non - IIT-an, I have strong suspicion that institutions like Harvard must be shaken up by the publicity received by their admissions policies, especially their legacy admissions. The darling of liberals, Fareed Zakaria, had put legacy admissions at about 50 percent. It is the biggest lie that Harvard education is any bit better than most land grant universities in USA. Decades ago, a professor in my MBA program at the University of Illinois quoted from a study that showed why Harvard graduates get bigger starting packages than equally bright graduates from other universities and the only difference was who the parents of the graduates were. Harvard kids were from families in which a parent was a big shot! Long story short, Harvard spearheading this campaign indicates the panic they are in that their bubble is being burst big time by IITs!

[@pallaviagrawal5508]

One data which should be considered really is that from which state, city and district most people get into IITs, generally the students from the second tier cities or below don't even have that exposure.

[@8PM-10AM]

23:46 similar issue happened with black students in one of the Ivy League universities. Black Students opt out of the university’s cause they were not able to academically match the other students and couldn’t able to cope up with academic rigorous routine and presssure. Pls watch professor Thomas sowell for this. If you can please read his books. Bloody brilliant man he is 🙏

[@sidmukh123]

‘Couldn’t able to cope up’ 🤣🤣 Yup, you sir are definitely a KZbin grad - I’m surprised you could actually spell ‘Ivy League’ without tripping up on your shivalingum 🤣🤣

[@8PM-10AM]

@@sidmukh123 🥰😍🤩Jadoo ki jhapi tere liye brada, get well soon 🤗

[@sidmukh123]

@@8PM-10AM , sooner you pull your head out of this malhotra dudes shriveled nethers, all will be well 🤣🤣🤣

[@8PM-10AM]

@@sidmukh123 this isn't gonna happen 😊this malhotra dude is beating anti india forces and narratives in their own turf for over 20 years now and now he is mentoring other indians to do the same as well.I need someone better than his credentials to give up on him. cheers bud

[@sidmukh123]

@@8PM-10AM , yup, keep dreaming. The only thing he does is make youtube videos, and a few losers watch them 🤣🤣🤣

[@umesh952]

Caste or varna system is not confined to only Sanatanies. It was used by Budhist, Jains, Sikhs too. Tell me who Jain, Budhist, Sikh ruler discarded this for their rule? Even Adivasi, Dalit Kings too used it. It was adminstrative structure of society.

[@dharmikrakshak8340]

They all are sanatani Christian and islam has rigid cast system.

[@viswakarmakalavedika]

Caste is horizontal economic system. Its not a vertical social system.

[@KaunKizka]

Turkas too

[@Morpheus_neo_trinity]

Caste is not the problem,not even varna is but the problem is when varna or caste is used as an excuse for discrimination. I have seen hardcore thiests saying things like even a dalit or a sudra can attain brahmanhood by engaging in virtuous deeds. What does that mean ? Is dalit or shudra a state of degeneracy ? Buddhist,Jains, muslims, Christians too have their own caste hierarchy but not as complex or meaningless as hindus. Discrimination and hatred among us hindus is unimaginable. In my native chikkamagaluru (Karnataka)kuruba families discriminate sc/st while themselves belonging to OBC category and having been discriminated by other upper castes. Even st's donot marry their kids into sc families and vice versa. If reservation has to be struck down it cannot happen without diluting caste system. We are first and foremost hindus and Whether we like it or not us not uniting and being together will always work to our detriment and it's has been happening since many decades. The price we have to pay will be far more disastrous. Look no further than swedon and UK and how their judiciary itself isn't protecting their law abiding citizens in fear of offending immigrants.

[@vanhannu]

Very nice discussion. Navin you were great.

[@mihirlalbhaumik9811]

No logic, science or statistics can defend Reservation in India in 21st century. What comity of nations think about this practice, we really don't know.

[@prasad7553]

Reservations can produce government officers, MLAs and MPs. But intellectuals cannot be produced by reservations. India's standards of education in doldrums due to reservations in teacher level. Even SCs and STs donot prefer government schools .

[@ugendharraoveldanda7204]

Excellent effort... pls add more and more people in this community

[@anuragsingh135]

Very good point raised by Student.. somewhere Alumininof these institutions has to take ownershio and come forward to support thier communities..

[@anuragsingh135]

It's listing to bunch of people who are already made up there mind.. now sitting together to discuss who to prove their point and negate people who are raising issue of caste.. An IIT MATHS prof. Who has no data at all and has already picked up a side..and making argument. What can make of this ..

[@vaghelas4719]

Their attacks are not intended to improve the situation but to open a gate for their imerialism and exploitation. Caste is one such way where they can create a conflict controlled from their place of comfort.

[@cryogenic5456]

very strange since almost no brahmins are topping in IITs for a long time...Meritocracy indeed !

[@robbenvanpersie1562]

If you look at toppers you will find a lot of Brahmins in it

[@cryogenic5456]

@@robbenvanpersie1562 almost none

[@seekerseeker4112]

Keep inspiring future intellectual Kshatriya Rajivji.

[@ghanshyam1990]

The only solution is a nation-wide comprehensive socio-economic caste census.

[@makkumakkaa-dg9ue]

RESERVATION SHOULD BE BASED ON THE ECONOMIC CONDITION ONLY...

[@sasidharank7953]

To put it differently the 'creamy layer' filtration should be implemented because casteism is congenital and will take many more years to root out. And let us strive to root it out for Hindu unity and survival as Hindus because 'caste' is one factor which divides them.

[@vini2vin]

Discriminación is on the basis of cast not with financial capacity

[@vini2vin]

It should be done by dalit community by themselves who had lived good life without discrimination they should not avail the reservation benefits for their community.

[@testingcsr]

I see that reservations used as political tools destroyed the purpose of it.

[@rationalbeing6797]

Yes let's have based on economic status but abolish the dirty discriminatory caste system.

[@lakshmiravi2236]

The Bihar model ‘ super 30’ like, prepares students to crack the IIT entrance. But the actual course has more rigour which have not been taught; many are therefore underprepared and do not perform well in the course.

[@Dr.CIYENGAR]

I think any talk on caste-based discrimination must focus on the legalized ostracization of the Brahmin community in all Indian central and state universities in the form of quotas and reservations in not just the IITs but everywhere wlse too, and not just for student admissions but also teacher recruitments and all govt. recruitments. The rampant 35% mark cut off for SCs and STs, BCs and OBCs in India has literally killed merit in the country for generations today. As a displaced scholar myself who has been systematically discrminated against for being an Indian and a Brahmin, I have always found myself swimming against the current. So, i think it's about time that we lent our voices to expose this obsolete narrative of "culture capital" this and that, and launch a massive counter-offensive against the lack of merit in the likes of this Subramaniam woman or whoever she is - sounds like a bhabhaesque jargoneering individual who by her own lack of merit has defeated her own theory of the meritorious being the privileged, because she is privileged but with no merit and how's that?!. So, may be, calling out the discrmination againgt the GC would be a better way of completely removing reservations in India and rallying for "equal opportunities" and not "equal outcomes" as Rajeevji says. So, speaking of unearthing the real statistics, we could start by the mining out the statistics on Brahmin or GC graduates and postgraduates in India who've been denied equal opportunities in Universities and other places of work. Just look into Alumni books to see how many alums have had to diversify and change career lines due to the rampant systemic denial of opportunitues and then see what percentage of that is Brahmin/ upper castes.

[@shivamrai9067]

Finally the right questions raised.!!

[@sm1256]

I dont know that there is a category called Dalit Researcher.

[@mohank3463]

One thing I do not understand is why they have not involved office bearers of SC ST students or even Employees because as fas as I know every Instituition they have these student bodies and skso Employees bodies. I think, the issue can be resolved much easier if we take them into confidence and get a genuine statement thst there is no systemic descrimination in the instituitions based on caste. By involving them, we can take their genuine feedback slso so that even if they have grievabces, they can be addressed. It is very unfortunate that someone with malicious intent is throwing mud at our Instituitions of pride without any basis and we are all dpending sleepless nights how to counter this oropoganda.

[@mayankshelawala8504]

Naveen points were good, but his last point was dangerous. It was leading to cast based grouping of alumni. Which we want avoid and remove.

[@y1.5]

These people talking about merit and they don't know what merit is. now numerical scores are taken as an arbitrary measure of a person’s ability to study further, notwithstanding the fact that merit is an outcome and not representative of something. It is an outcome of family (support, care and attention to child’s education, extracurricular activities, education and economic condition), surroundings, economic support, teachers and access to quality schooling. Entrance exams are designed in a way to cater to the population which has all or most of the above boxes checked. Therefore, anyone coming from such a background can easily segue into the so-called merit-oriented world.

[@pranaya2800]

Dalit will always be discriminated as long as they recognize them selves as dalits. Dalit word is used to call someone as lower category people. Dalits are basically tell people that they are lower category and then you are asking for equality. Stop calling yourselves dalits stop identifying yourselves with you caste. The moment people get to know that you have reservation they are getting to know that you are so called lower category. It is an announcement that you are lower category. Reservation is a paradox, it will always remind people that you are a lower caste person.

[@cloudless_night]

You are living in a different world. Dalit is a soft word, do you want to know what words are generally used for dalits? The ones which denote their specific castes? It is the society who is calling them names, often very very derogatory ones. These "civilised" people are sitting here, just by denying the problem, are themselves culprits. Shame.

[@billybutcher6504]

They are not low therefore they are leave hinduism. Lol. Ur religion only have names as brahmin, chandala, vaishya, etc. So first destroy ur religion!

[@practicingminimalism4710]

Naveen - truly pointed questions ❤❤❤

[@stinglp1198]

SC and st students must get special coaching. They must transform the mentality of these communities, that they can only score low marks. Social upbringing has to change. Otherwise it will be just cosmetic. SC and St Students finishing higher education like IIT, IIM, Medicine and dropping out of these colleges must be discussed openly. No diagnosis, no treatment, period.

[@anuragsingh135]

Its amazing to see peope using term like.. "lower" and "upper" .. and then say where is descrimination..

[@linneshwharparameswaran6147]

You use that word for freebies and then you use the same word to justify being a Paras1t3

[@jitendramisra722]

Plz stop the drugs in the campus, i have seen many talented students destroy.

[@rozermacdual1540]

It is impossible to make everyone equal in term of economic, mental status, thought, culture, and cast. It is hindu culture that try to equate poor in different parameters with the help of reservation. Despite that West keep arguing it against hindu society.

[@radhakrishnankrishnamurthy3292]

The students initial schooling in the type of school ( school grading is very important, including govt ones ) would be advantage to get a correct assessment.

[@kiddscaartoonvideosworld8298]

Only 2-3 present of Brahmins are becoming severe competition to entire Dalits world wide. So Dalits should get reservations world wide where ever Brahmins studying.

[@gyanendrakumarsatapathy4257]

This mentality of dalits is holding themselves. Dalits wish to beat brahmins with the help of reservation. You tell me why not studying hard and beat them. It will be good in merit terms. You choose reservation in stead of merit. That's the difference between brahmins and dalit. Brahmins choose merit because it will develop the society and but reservation community welfare in monetary terms but in social level no upliftment. Mentality should be changed

[@kiddscaartoonvideosworld8298]

@@gyanendrakumarsatapathy4257 yes. Agreed. It is a wonder that entire Dalits, other Sudra communities, Muslims, Christians are feeling that only 2-3 present of Brahmins are competing them all in the total world. It is a wonder. But Brahmins are growing with their hard work, sincerity, intelligence, even becoming CEO s to the most reputed companies like Google, Microsoft etc...and state heads like Rishi sunak and probably Vivek Ramaswamy and so on. They are true patriots even though faced lot of criticism and persecution in India.

[@billybutcher6504]

​@@gyanendrakumarsatapathy4257brahmins took reservation for 3000 yr u gobarbhakt 😂😂😂. And even on top they committed crimes like untouchablity, casteism, misogyny etc etc

[@sansthitachattopadhyay8205]

@@Teacoffeeeee instead of whining from your room, how about you work hard and quit asking government for handouts?

[@Teacoffeeeee]

@@sansthitachattopadhyay8205 why your mouth doesn't open against caste system if you're so concerned about reservation. Reservation is their because of caste system you abolish caste system completely and we will stop taking reservation and even urge government to remove it. From now tell your people to abolish their caste and follow real Hinduism but I know you won't coz you're just hypocrites who support caste system.

[@sbaskaran7638]

Dedicated researchers can take inputs from as many IIT students as possible to build up the empirical study as students themselves are busy in their studies.

[@Ramkumar-uj9fo]

However, the actual implementation of Macaulay's Minute varied across regions and institutions. Some argue that the focus on Western disciplines led to a gradual decline in the emphasis on traditional Indian knowledge systems, including metaphysics. Bard Rajiv ji has to talk about the Global Left metaphysics before he proposed his own. Request the change in the book.

[@vijayanandkulkarni9833]

Very good discussion, but I think we should take care of all children from poor families irrespective of cast. Not only IIT also the other engineering colleges r to be considered.Some children get merit seats in private colleges, where the fees r higher n parents can’t afford to pay, only one day is reserved to pay for particular class,if it’s missed they charge fine. Suppose a child couldn’t pay for a particular semester he is not allowed to appear for the exam. The fees for government seats should equalise the fees in government colleges. Also I want to insist that the private colleges r to be restricted on their fees. Then only Bharat our country may become fully educated.

[@abhiyou0tube]

The caste on the basis of surname cannot be determined in most cases. My surname is name of a village in southern India. In that village, there are residents who are Christians and Muslims also carry same surname. Similarly there is a gardener, boatman and the Hindu temple priest also carrying same surname as that of village.

[@iamyou8994]

Also a lot of low caste people use high caste surnames for better reputation. Likewise some high caste people also use low caste names to take benefits of reservation given to low caste people. My own family is an example, some of my family use 'Singh' as surname and an uncle of our has given Chaudhary surname to his kid but we are all OBC.

[@victoryv116]

It's the lack of research on behalf of so called intellectuals in India or I would say they are not intellectuals but servants of Indian political class and their propoganda

[@786humaira1]

What is obc

[@jayabharathibl]

@@786humaira1 general category other than forward category and minorities like sc and st

[@jitendramisra722]

Sir, I have purchased your book snakes in ganges

[@rangarajan9080]

IIT Madras will be a Corporation School in 20-30 years

[@spg6651]

We are not asking fundamental question -- Why are we subjecting higher education to this type of arguments ?. in AIIMS we have reservation even for PG courses .. Imagine a MD passed out from AIIMS under reserved category is practicing and people come to know he or she is from reserved category , People will be reluctant to go there as this is specialized field. The same person if he have it in him/ her he/ she could have made through open category. Open category people also BUT it that is individual failure and not institutional

[@titussamuel2440]

You should forget using that lower caste word. Do social work for everyone who wants help. It is stupid to give some one big post or reserved college seat to remind them they are not equal. Social work is important, not making heroes out of a few low caste persons. We need to eliminate that word lower caste from use. Call them a disadvataged community. Call higher caste disadvataged too when they need help. Merit can not be punished. You have to have a system where merit is not punished for uplift of a disadvantaged poeple. Think about it, USA or Europe wants merit to be top countries. If we have no respect for merit, we will encourage brain drain. India needs to be pro both disadvantaged persons and also pro merit. Not one against other.

[@yashpatange1136]

So true middle/higher class are disadvantaged very badly due to it

[@jitendramisra722]

After 12th, govt should provide educations only to scholars, not others due to caste, region, religion, language. Completely stop the education based on money and others.

[@samm8654]

So much talent in general 😂😂😂 that is why we are vishwguru in mugal and British time😂

[@rakeshchourasiya1739]

Please add one more correlate student from urban or rural in govt or pvt school hindi english or regional medium school and quality teachers in that particular in that time

[@freethinker3054]

Until you people stop using the cast, social differences will never erode. Stop using the victim card, remove the caste from your minds.

[@BipinkumarCA]

Parents education is also related to Caste.

[@sudhakukillaya2174]

Stop this Dalits/ BC/OBC...rise above, work hard, study harder... Nobody gets anything without a purpose or a goal. The losers cry fowl..

[@manthanpatel6295]

Ya that easy to say then done.... ask Brahamin and UC remove there surname...😂😂😂 if they ready call me.... so called removing reservations... ask to remove cast system 😂😂😂

[@balsharma709]

Good and healthy discussion .

[@sandipbarman6693]

Blowin' In The Wind Song by Bob Dylan

[@subbaraod45]

The way ambedkar succeeded indicates that he was meritorious and caste discrimination was not there to stop him from succeeding.

[@gyanendrakumarsatapathy4257]

Then why ambedkar chhose reservations for his fellow people from his community. Instead he could tell them to work hard and make an inspiration for others

[@billybutcher6504]

​@@gyanendrakumarsatapathy4257gobar bhakt. He needed seperate electorates 😂😂😂. Gandhi gave reservation. U go read history u gobarbhakt nonmerit man😂

[@TanmayParanjape]

It is possible that Leftists/Communist social researchers will take the studies proposed here in this discussion and they can manipulate the surveys and results in their favour which they have been doing from long time. I think these kind of discussions should not be made public. Showing all your cards...

[@RaghavanA-ev2jx]

How do we certify that caste is a Hindu make? In my opinion varna cocept is, but not caste. Castes are occupational groups having become hereditary just like property and our democratic leadership which has become family and caste centred.

[@kiranrao4375]

76 years after british bankruptcy. If you can solve a math problem, you get marks, otherwise you don't. Same applies to programming. and all other aspects of life

[@kumarfanse335]

Very good discussion. I wonder why these academician in India every where don’t engage in relevant research, instead of teaching same old thing for ever?

[@telugujoshi]

NITIE had been doing this right from the start - collecting stats I mean. They used to constantly correct the admission process - A GRE like test but highly analytical, a group duscussion, and meet with the professors. All the professors used to be on the admissions commitee. Professors are dvided up into 2-3 member teams who would visit different cities to administer the tests, conduct group discussions, and also talk to the professors of the applicants. Final GPA was given the highest weightage with GD lowest. Then outcomes are measured - salaries, prfoessional progress etc. Bu that was when the intake was 50 all engineering graduates per annum. It was completely residential two year program divided into quarters. Final two quarters were industrial project where we learned a lot on the job. On the average my batch had 3 job offers per person. With ~50 professors and 100 (1st abnd 2nd year stundets put together) the professor student ratio was 1:2. Also when the 2nd year srundents were out for their industrial projects, the professor student ratio for the first year students used to 1:1. Those were fun days pn a campus that is extraordinarily lovely. It is a great place and I am proud of being a graduate of NITIE or rather now IIMMumbai.

[@manthanpatel6295]

Simple is that at the end of the day cast is main problem... if you want remove it... remove cast first😂😂😂you cant remove reservations without permission of sc st and obcs population 😂😂😂... who ever come in power bjp or congress... no one have dare to remove it 😂😂😂...because 70 % of hindu population is so call lower cast category... how much UC cry .... they dont have power to remove reservations.... 😂😂😂

[@GulabSingh-si4ml]

Proud of Naveen bro Lots of love

[@YoKai11722]

In fact IMO, the dalits boasting about their Dalia-Ness instead of their merits is proving to be a greater shakle. That way even the people who do not know come to know

[@umesh952]

We are watching fruits of reservation in Manipur.

[@Ramkumar-uj9fo]

This pgsem and Coursera are diversity. In pgsem interview they asked why you did not do pgp and cat. Pgp and cat are RG and pure merit. In Coursera they also do not ask anything. That is good.

[@nomore2001]

Would other varnas shake a dalits hand?

[@ex-muslim--zakirnalayak4703]

Yes why not..... I have a friend who is dalita.... I am not....

[@nomore2001]

@ex-muslim--zakirnalayak4703 Isn't that what it means to be untouchable? That the caste is considered so spiritually and physically unclean that they can not be touched. Like how certain castes will not eat with others.

[@sanjayrajkaran6399]

People do not understand the Varna system. It is has been misunderstood . The learned need to start educating People from the school level.

[@persaud1]

🪔 🚩 🇮🇳 👌🙏✊️ 🇮🇳 🚩 🪔

[@ashrafalam6075]

There are 2 kinds of problems Horizontal and Vertical. India this problem is Vertical. You have to findout Vertical Solution.

[@NativeVsColonial]

And what is that?

[@ashrafalam6075]

@NativeVsColonial Vertically. Yourself assess how many economic classes exist ( From super super Rich to poorest, classify at your own) . Horizontally. Religious diversity, cast, etc etc. Provincial disharmony, Educational Qualifications distancing, Human Racism, . Walls were created in subcontinent to Rule ,after 1947, local Rulers didn't build Bridges, they made more Walls for their VESTED INTERESTS.

[@aparnasharma2324]

Pranam guruji

[@homosapienssapiens4848]

There're Upper Caste people in every category xyz therefore reservation is already diluted to much extent even the Prevention of Atrocities Act is also diluted saying all this wrt my state Uttarakhand.

[@robbenvanpersie1562]

Can you explain a little in ' every category '

[@dhavaldhaval3377]

In last part that young boy just hit nail in coffin...👍

[@ritvik8773]

Arey rajeev tera dost Nithyananda kidhar hai bey ?