Ram Promaster : How worn can a cam be and still run? AH Rocker Arm upgrade

[@craigsmithx]

aka Mark Branium, That ridge is unbelievable. I hope I'm within towing distance of your shop when my Promaster blows up. Thank you for another great video, Kip.

[@promastersonly1419]

Ha. thanks Mark!

[@05fordvan]

hey kip, it's a guy on youtube, his name is michael byrne. he had to replace his rocker arms on his 2013 chysler town and country with 135000 miles. he's hilarious to me.

[@promastersonly1419]

Watched it. Fun stuff.

[@dorrencereid459]

Hello, i just purchased a 2017 city at auction and have the tick. Owner cut the serp belt im guessing to eliminate engine code. You mentioned a package deal that your shop was offering. I was wondering what is that package (parts and #'s) and cost. This fix seems it may be higher then just replacing the engine.

[@promastersonly1419]

None of my channel’s information would apply to the promaster city, as it is a different vehicle with a different engine. But if you have a regular promaster, ballpark is $1500-2000 for the rocker job.

[@bruce158]

I wish you guys are closer to us. Does anybody know good promaster mechanics in northern California bay area? My promaster ticking noise getting louder...

[@promastersonly1419]

Funny you mention it. I have a few shops I'm friendly with, and one is in near Walnut Creek. Not a Promaster shop, but a good guy - very competent and honest, which unfortunately means he's always busy. Worth a shot. Ray's Auto, 6985 Dublin Blvd Dublin CA 94568 925-829-8272. Tell him Kip (Youseff's son) gave you the referral.

[@Baxsie]

Oh gawd, that cam is BAD. Also: please vacuum out that crap above the rags . . . eeeek. Love the videos thanks for making them.

[@promastersonly1419]

I'm kinda embarrased about that. I'd hoped nobody would notice.

[@TotalPrint-n1n]

Question for you! Are you aware of any good complete kits ie 4 cams, lifters and rockers? Or at least lifter and rocker kits. I'm only seeing no-name brands that it's hard to trust. Do you buy lifter and rocker kits separately and do you recommend any? I know it doesnt need four cams, likely only one but the vehicle cant be down while waiting on parts either lol. Thanks! Love what you do.

[@promastersonly1419]

I'm unwilling to experiment with the Amazon/off brand/no brand stuff simply because I'm not interested in doing a customer job twice. It may be great, it may be crap. I buy rockers and lifters directly from the dealer. I buy cams from Summit because they are just dealer cams for a little less. I'm also a fan of used cams, because nothing really wears out as such on a cam, and you can compare a lobe to the identical lobe next to it and know it's fine. It's just a hunk of steel. Junkyards dont list used cams on car-part.com, but I imagine if you call they'd be DELIGHTED to sell you cams and probably for very cheap. I have a video on how to inspect the cam tonewheels to make sure they haven't shifted. I noticed that some of the cheap Amazon cams come without the tonewheels, which is a major red flag and not a hassle I want to have to deal with.

[@iceblue6971]

Great idea

[@granteaton8438]

Hey kip, thanks a ton for the video. I have a 210k promaster i am trying to maintain. Do you have a recommendation for when these puppies should be swapped out? I really would love a video on high-mile promasters and what to look out for in maintenance to keep it going long-term and what i should look at or have my mechanic look at!

[@promastersonly1419]

@@granteaton8438 I have many videos on that topic. Rocker health can be monitored by cutting open used oil filters and looking for metal. That metal is your rocker arm needle bearings.

[@baerfas]

Does anyone know of a good promaster specialist mechanic in Southern California??

[@promastersonly1419]

That's a good question for the facebook forum. Ram Promaster Owners.

[@baerfas]

​@@promastersonly1419ok thanks!

[@stuartkloven646]

Very helpful stuff. Thankyou for the info, and the reference to the Motor City Mechanic videos. At about 130K, my 2014 has the tic. I have bought all the parts except the cams (hoping they are still ok), and the special tools needed. But I am not a mechanic and I am not confident enough to commit to the work myself so I am looking for a mechanic here in northern CA to do the work, preferably someone who has done the job before. My question for you Kip... you mention you want to offer a "package price" to replace all rockers and lifters, and do a "few other things" while you are at it. What are the other things I should have done while we have access? And about how much should that package cost?

[@promastersonly1419]

Prices vary, as expected. We charge 8 hrs @ $120, plus $12 per rocker and you need 24 rockers. Add to that intake gaskets and valve cover gaskets, so you’re at around $1400 all in. New lifters are not mandatory, nor are plugs or coils. But at 130k do plugs and boots, but not coils. Extras are mostly about the 3 metal coolant pipes that can rot over time. It’d be obvious if you need one or more. I have a shop recommendation near Walnut Creek if that would apply to you. Honest and competent.

[@stuartkloven646]

@@promastersonly1419 excellent! Add intake gaskets, valve cover gaskets, but what are boots?? (Sorry I'm not around mechanically literate). And yes, I will take the Walnut Creek reference. I travel to work in Danville/ Alamo all the time just down the road from there.so that would be ideal!

[@promastersonly1419]

@@stuartkloven646 Boots are essentially the spark plug wires. They are about 5" long, and connect the spark plug to the coil. This guy is a friend of my dad's, and I've talked to him and his tech on the phone before. Super nice guys, and extremely competent and honest. Ray's Auto 6985 Dublin Blvd Dublin, CA 94568

[@stuartkloven646]

@@promastersonly1419 thankyou very much 👍👍

[@hugop81]

I had a problem with a rough idle took it to the shop n replace cylinder #4 n now they put everything together n now they have a code that cylinder #6 misfire now dint known what to do now I’m in California any advice 2014 with only 150k m

[@promastersonly1419]

This is VERY common. The pentastar tick, which is rocker arms failing just like in this video) causes a single cylinder misfire. You take it to a shop, he thinks it's ignition so he changes the coils and plugs and charges you $500. That helps for a moment, but the misfire comes back because it's not caused by ignition, it's caused by compression. The only real solution is to replace the rocker arms and cams as shown in this video. Do that with the AH parts, and you won't have to worry about this problem again - 500k no sweat. The only good news I can give you is that by the time you have a misfire, the damage is done and you can keep driving it. You might get 5 or 10k down the road before it's misfiring so badly it's undriveable. Want more proof? Cut open your oil filter and see if it's filled with bits of metal - that would be the needle bearing of the rocker arm rollers.

[@hugop81]

Thank you the shop pulled out the engine n send out the heads to get fixed cylinder 4 and put everything back n now they said that is cylinder 6 not sure if the replace the rocker arms

[@promastersonly1419]

@@hugop81 I'm afraid to ask how much they are charging you for all this. You are an expediter, I take it?

[@hugop81]

Right now is 2,200

[@hugop81]

Let ask u when they said we send out the head to get rebuilt is that including the rockers arms is that part of the head ?

[@jumpforfun]

I cant reinstall the timing chain back in place after removing phaser any tips. I did had the tensor special tool and mark/phaser

[@promastersonly1419]

Worst case, take the timing cover off and figure out why you cant get slack in the chain.

[@yahormashkou5657]

Very informative! Could you recommend a web site to get the parts for 2018 promaster pentastar tick? Maybe even links

[@promastersonly1419]

There are Chinese knockoff on Amazon. I feel sketchy about buying the rocker arms from anybody other than a dealer. They aren't crazy priced, so why not. You need that, and you need a special tools kit from Amazon for under $20 that makes it a WHOLE lot easier. Search Motor City Mechanic Pentastar to find a really great multipart video that shows the whole job in depth. Study that video.

[@yahormashkou5657]

@@promastersonly1419 thank you for your timely response. I am also trying to figure out if 2018 promaster 3500 has both VVT(variable valve timing)&VVL(variable valve lift) or if it only has VVT. If it does have both then where can I get the tool to lock the cams and release the tension from the timing chain?

[@promastersonly1419]

@@yahormashkou5657 2014-2021 only have VVT. The 22 and 23 have VVT and VVL. Amazon sells the tools for under $20.

[@RobertJohnson-xv1kg]

We're you able to replace those cam shafts without pulling the engine? I own 5 promasters and 3 are ticking. Want to repair them myself but not willing to pull the engine like everyone else says you have to do.

[@promastersonly1419]

You don't need to pull the engine. There are some tricks to it, but the engine doesn't need to come out.

[@RobertJohnson-xv1kg]

@@promastersonly1419 thanks been putting it off cause it's slightly intimidating. But your videos are very very helpful.

[@MrSuperchargedv8]

no need to pull engine....need locking tools if new but can get by without them.

[@promastersonly1419]

The tools to do the cams are under $30 on Amazon. “Motor city mechanic” on youtube has a great video in it, super detailed.

[@PeterParker-nl1uh]

Hey you seem very knowledgeable about the 3.6 i did a quick replacement of a couple bad rockers and seem to still have lifter but not rocker noise i plan to go back in soon but when i did the repair one of my cams looked as bad as yours but runs ok has code about bank inefficiency but seems to run fine do you think i should should go back in and replace said cam? The cam holders bearings are quite worn too but no new heads for me has 160miles any advice? Thanks

[@promastersonly1419]

Likely it’s the lifter, but a tick caused by a lifter is relatively harmless, assuming it’s not bad enough to misfire. The computer is counting every misfire, but they have to be above a certain threshold to light the light. Might be worth paying a shop to use their scanner to look at the misfire counters. Assuming it isnt misfiring, you can forget the lifter being the source of your p0219a bank code. That’s a tricky code to diagnose, but it can be caused by a vac leak, exhaust leak, injector issues, or many other things.

[@PeterParker-nl1uh]

Thanks for the reply yeah don't think it's misfiring and I did replace the worn rockers but didn't do any lifters at the time. It seems like lifter noise as it is duller. Do you think I could be ok leaving the worn cam shaft in and just run it or replace the cam? Thanks again

[@promastersonly1419]

@@PeterParker-nl1uh if it’s not misfiring now, and the rocker is good, you can leave it alone.

[@PeterParker-nl1uh]

Thanks again for all the advice I am about to open the valve covers again soon because I want to be rid of the noise and least be confident everything is okay so.. going to replace all rockers but hopefully not all lifters. How does one check lifters? They get smaller? Also it still runs fine with that worn cam and I don't really want to replace it... I don't suppose you recommend a Chinese cam? Thanks again

[@promastersonly1419]

@@PeterParker-nl1uh squeeze each rocker with your fingers. They should basically be rock hard. Replace any that are springy. I’d go with a junkyard cam over a chinese knockoff. Summit racing has the best prices on real mopar cams.

[@tredogzs]

u pull the engine to change those lifters? or u leave it all in there for head work?

[@promastersonly1419]

The engine stays in for cams, lifters, rockers - both banks. I have also replaced the front head with the engine in the van. I'm unsure if you can replace the rear head like that.

[@tredogzs]

@@promastersonly1419 Thank You

[@houshang212]

Thanks for your video, Do you replace the cam shaft with engine in-place? or you take the engine down?

[@promastersonly1419]

No need to remove the engine to do the cams or rockers.

[@splat7147]

Is cam phaser failure on these 3.6L engines common in your experience? I was watching a video from the online mechanic tips channel, and he recommended replacing all of the phasers at around 100,000 miles preventatively if going in to do the cam followers. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[@promastersonly1419]

Actually, no. I have never personally seen a phaser fail. But I imaging it could happen, and simply knowing about and what to look for makes it a pretty easy diagnosis.

[@promastersonly1419]

I should add; the logic of replacing them is kind of sound, simply because the cost is in the labor and most people drive 100k in 8-10 years. But for a commercial application that does more mileage, has regular oil changes with the right oil, I wouldn't replace them unless you have rock solid reason to. MotorCity Mechanic has a great recent video on them, and there's simply nothing inside there to go wrong really.

[@splat7147]

Thanks for the information. One other thing I was wondering is if you could recommend a quality aftermarket valve cover gasket set with the spark plug tube seals, cam position sensor seals, and phaser actuator seals? I was originally planning to replace with Mopar, but it adds up to nearly $200 for all of the necessary seals for both valve covers.

[@promastersonly1419]

@@splat7147 We use the Felpro from Rockauto. $60. You can skip the phaser actuator seals - they never leak, and if they did you could do them without having to disassemble much. For that matter, we to all of it when we do a rocker arm job, but the stuff rarely leaks if you just reuse it. Intake upper and lower gaskets are worth replacing if you have it apart.

[@splat7147]

How many miles/years have you put on the Fel-Pro 3.6L gasket and seal kits without leakage? Do you have any experience with the Mahle kit? Rock Auto is selling it for $39 compared to the Fel-Pro at $55.

[@tylergray6308]

Do you have a Video on replacing the Cams? I've done penstar 3.6 before. Promaster doesn't give you much room on bank 1. Curious if it's same process.

[@promastersonly1419]

Surprisingly, plenty of room back there, once you take out the oval fresh air intake. A shallow 36mm socket for the phasers helps.

[@keithj6251]

Where do you get the AH rockers from?

[@promastersonly1419]

Dealer only. Resist the tempation to get them anywhere else. Amazon is usually counterfeits.

[@05fordvan]

check him out when you get a chance.

[@ProsperityAffermation]

How much does a job like this cost?

[@promastersonly1419]

Depends on if you need a cam, but it's around $1500 if you don't, around $2000 if you do. Super common job and you may find it cheaper depending on where you live.

[@05fordvan]

Hey kip a coworker of mine had the leaking oil cooler adapter housing, and replaced it with the all metal one from dorman. 2 days later it started leaking again. He was pissed. Do you think the dorman one was defective? I told him he should've went with the OEM part.

[@promastersonly1419]

Nah. The dorman is vastly superior to the oe part. Could be defective, but doubtful. I’d guess they just folded an o-ring on installation. Or possibly the o-ring on the oil cap was on wrong. It happens.

[@05fordvan]

@@promastersonly1419 i wated to ask you, with my 2021 promaster, i shouldn't have to worry about rocker arm failure due to extensive idling do i? i know those rocker arms are the latest revision right?

[@promastersonly1419]

@@05fordvan Correct, you have the most current rockers. I don't have a crystal ball (although my balls are velvet!) but from what information I have the rocker failure and pentastar tick are a thing of the past.

[@05fordvan]

@@promastersonly1419 HALLELUJAH!!!

[@FleetTech97]

I had similar thing. I found the dormon seals are not very good. During install my oring was very tight and it rolled during install (my fault) I put the oem seals on the dorman housing and it worked perfectly.

[@frederickmcnair6230]

Where are you located

[@promastersonly1419]

Barberton Ohio.

[@judegallagher2355]

Do you have folks working for you & what i mean delivery workers ?

[@promastersonly1419]

Yes, I have three working vans and three drivers. Well…4, one van is a husband and wife team.

[@shaneparker7558]

Hi Kip, thanks for the videos. ​​⁠my pro master motor is ticking very loud with low oil pressure I stopped running it. I am looking for a mechanic in my area if you know anyone up my way please let me know. I live in southern New Hampshire about 30 minutes north of Boston MA. Just over the border. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated….. these are the codes I’m getting. P0521 P1524 P0344 P0349 P006DD P0330 P0562

[@promastersonly1419]

A lot to say about this one. Those are NOT the codes normally associated with the pentastar tick. I have some theories, but it's a weird cluster of codes relating to oil pressure AND camshaft sensor and actuator wiring. I'm going to give you my theory, but I will warn that it's going to take a real mechanic to diagnose and fix this, especially if it's what I think it is. But dude has to verify the wiring and a few other simple things before he tackles what I think it probably is. There are two bolts in each head that act as oil galley plugs. We have seen one or many work themselves loose and generate an in head oil leak. Without proper pressure in the head, the cam timing will be off, and the cams will read out of commanded position, since they are controlled by oil. It's also possible this is happening in combination with the normal P06DD issue, which isn't the oil pump but the pressure control solenoid in the oil pump. The engine doesn't actually care what the oil pressure is, since it can derive the pressure from the cam postions. But if pressure isn't getting to the cams normally, it will get confused and be unable to put the cams where it wants them. It may falsely assume at this point that there is a problem with the cam phasers or sensors. That's why it's throwing this group of codes. It's possible that the thing has a bad oil pump, but we have never seen or heard of that actually happening, though your ticking sound supports it to some extent. Knowing which way to go at this point is going to take more diag than I can do here. Determining if the pump is actually good is as simple as using an oil filter cap that has a bung for a pressure gauge in it, or tapping into oil somewhere else with a sensor. But once the wiring is verfied and the pressure is verfied, it's going to be in the valve train. None of this necessitates a new engine or anything that drastic.

[@promastersonly1419]

I don't have any shop recommendations in that area. What you might look for is a mobile diagnostician. Going to take some searching, but that would be the guy to get it in front of.

[@shaneparker7558]

@@promastersonly1419 ok thanks

[@shaneparker7558]

@@promastersonly1419 had a mobile mechanic out yesterday his diagnosis is that the cam shaft is work out most likely that the bank one lifter is stuck open because it broke and wore the nub off of the shaft. The tick is not just a tick any longer it’s a raping sound like really loud… not knocking but raping. Idk what’s your thoughts on that one? I’m still waiting for his estimate.

[@promastersonly1419]

Sounds like late stage Pentastar tick, on which I and many other channels have videos. Not cheap, but very fixable. You are certain to need 1 camshaft ($400 summit racing) and the estimate will likely be to replace all 24 rockers with the upgraded AH rockers. This will basically eliminate the problem from happening again. Be advised; that cylinder has been dumping fuel into the cat for a while, and it's very likely that you will have a P0420, which is a cat code. You can drive like that forever, but the light will be always on. The fix is a new cat and sensors, which is an expense but relatively cheap on this van. @@shaneparker7558

[@MrSuperchargedv8]

how often are you doing your oil changes?

[@promastersonly1419]

Everyone is different. The factory recommends 5k. Because we do all highway, I go 10k on oil and 20k on filters. For me, that works out to an oil change a month. But for regular use, 5k is a good number.