Are BJJ purple belts today better than black belts from 25 years ago?

[@nicholasneyhart396]

Man it is a running joke at my gym that if someone "invents" a move they just don't know enough Japanese.

[@RamseyDewey]

Hahahahahaha!

[@blockmasterscott]

I like that!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@cbroo69]

This is true, I thought I came up with something in my dojo and a few weeks later the coach taught it to all of us. I asked him after class why he gave away my new move, he said "I learnt that move 20 years ago, its a basic technique to us".

[@paragon1782]

That is so damn amusing

[@sliderx1897]

@@cbroo69 its funny you would think you just invented a move in a martial arts system thats been around 100 years. U must be quite the wizard there

[@39Hundred]

Roger Gracie uses “basic BJJ” and is one of the best. Roger mastered those techniques to the point that he dominates guys that use the “modern, fancy moves”. A lot of the fancy techniques are sport techniques that are used in sports tournaments that wouldn’t work in a real fight. Those fancy moves would get you punched or elbowed in the face.

[@iorekby]

And he beat a "modern" day great in Buchena too with those basics, which flies in the face of this argument about modern guys automatically being better.

[@erichlf]

I would argue that Andrew Wiltse uses "basic BJJ" (minus the leg locks, but Oswaldo Fadda was doing leg locks), but combined with his wrestling knowledge...

[@Whosyourdaddy21]

I mean it makes sense the if everyone trains the same amount of time the person who trains basic high percentage moves will beat some one who spends time training the flashy lower percentage ones

[@blockmasterscott]

In stand fighting we have two types of fighting, the first in a non lethal environment where you can try fancy stuff and not worry, and the realistic fighting where you stick to the basics while pretending that the other guy is really out to hurt you. I think you need to practice both methods.

[@KKSuited]

@@erichlf Andrew's lineage is about as pure as it gets in the USA. That would be why. Lineage: Carlos Gracie > H. Gracie > Rickson Gracie > Rodrigo Vaghi > Heath Pedigo > Andrew Wiltse It took Heath like 15 or 20 years to get his black belt through Vaghi who is super stingy. Apparently that shit works though because PSF is full of killers.

[@Shinobiscout]

Dan Inosanto has said there are no new techniques. Everything that you think is new was trained hundreds of years ago. While you think it’s new, you have only “rediscovered it.”

[@sliderx1897]

Nothing is new, only repackaged

[@AN71H3RO]

Amen to that. I'm into filipino martial arts for over a decade now. Once when I joined a seminar on the German longsword, someone told me about the messer techniques by Hans Talhoffer in his book from 1467. Looking at, it it has so many similarities to what I've trained it made me laugh.

[@SwordTune]

Even that saying itself has been said before.

[@THEREALZENFORCE]

"There are no new techniques... only rediscovered" Let's see what reality says : 1) Where were 100 to 2000 years moves of modern breakdance (one armed airflares, one elbow airflares, 50 rounds 2000 spins, one armed handstand push ups, etc) breakdance alone changed more in 25 years than Kungfu in 1000 2) Where were all the jump tricks from tricking 100 to 3000 years ago ? Same level double to triple corkscrew kicks ? 3) where were the fosbury flop records before fosbury invented the technique 4) Watch Valley Uprising Rockclimbing documentary and see all the new techniques invented in Rockclimbing that did not exist before. 5) in martial arts alone the invention of completely different hand to hand weapons changed the existing techniques. A Rapier wielder has a different hand technique than other swords before, changing the techniques to use the Rapier. A halberd invented needed also other techniques than the spear that came before.

[@frozencloudzzful]

To be fair, the blackbelts from 25 years ago have also improved alot.

[@hasanc1526]

Exactly! Who said that they were stuck in cryogenic time chambers!?

[@iorekby]

This is modern Shotokan: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHSWe2d6btt5nrM This is Shotokan from 30 years ago: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j57Qk2Bsbd16Y5Y Same organisation. Conclusion: Modern does not mean better.

[@frozencloudzzful]

@@iorekby 1 is litteraly highlights, also we are discussing bjj a completely different martial art. I would also agree that modern does equal better, but i dont think anyone is claiming thats always the case. We are talking about a specific martial art and specific conditions. Bjj in grappling competition and bjj in fighting. This is also "modern" karate kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4upqZlmm6Z5fas

[@frozencloudzzful]

@@automaticninjaassaultcat3703 ofc there are alot of mcdojos, but lets not forget wonderboy in mma being one of the best strikers out there with a heavy karate influenced style. Glad to see someone else here who gets it. ❤️

[@brentondudley3925]

I don't even understand the point of this video. Black belts were better back then. They could actually defend themselves in a fight and trained to do so. Nowadays you aren't considered good if you don't win sport matches. Who's actually training for real world situations? Give me Rickson over Gordon Ryan

[@colinlint]

In my opinion I believe that the modern purple belt would gain more respect and understanding of the fundamentals, where as the old black belts would gain an appreciation for the evolution of certain submissions, and how the practice has evolved.

[@Beastius24]

I don't know Jiu Jitsu enough to have a qualified opinion, but I definitely don't like the online crowd who belittle Royce Gracie . Say what you like but proving yourself against multiple styles with practically no rules 4 times in a row is an incredible achievement no matter how you look at it. What enabled Jiu Jitsu to become that popular world wide and thus evolve accordingly was that streak in UFC 1-4.

[@iorekby]

And here's the thing: A lot of modern-day BJJ practitioners, despite BJJ's "evolutions", would actually fare far worse in an MMA fight than Royce did. Back when Royce competed, he trained with Vale Tudo in mind, not modern-day BJJ comps. Vale Tudo and BJJ used to be deeply intertwined. Today they are not. A lot of modern BJJ practitioners, even those successful on the BJJ comp circuit, would get badly hurt trying to step in to a cage and fight even the types of fighters Royce was up against in the early UFCs. A lot of the innovations of modern BJJ today have decimated the takedown abilities of practitioners, and promote methods that would simply get you punched or knee'd in the face in an MMA/Vale Tudo fight. It annoys me too when modern-day BJJ practioners belittle Royce, because in reality he performed far better than most of them would in MMA fights. And FWIW I've been to a Royce seminar and even in his mid 40s he still dominated a bigger, younger black belt at a seminar. And that guy had won gold in his weight class in an IBJJF comp in Europe earlier that year.

[@Tylerthegrappler]

@@iorekby this I can agree with. As a full time JJ practitioner not everyone is there to be a killer. That’s the thing with martial arts though, the journey is personal and should be.

[@harliiquinnstarlight]

@@iorekby let's not forget that who is Gracie as well as the Gracie basic Jiu-Jitsu is designed for defending against punches. A competitive jiu-jitsu purple belt these days don't have that Foundation and they create enough distance to get your head punched in all the time

[@JLewis1979]

Anyone belittling Royce has a problem we can't fix. He showed up and won several tournaments where he had to go through 3 opponents in one night. He tapped Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, and several other really tough guys in the process. He's more of a man than most fighters today. They need 2-3 months notice and only fight 2-4 times a YEAR on average.

[@RuizCombatGrappling]

Modern Purple belts are terrified to go takedowns in a dojo. Imagine them fighting guys like Shamrock and Severn.

[@Vwong114]

Good points. I think Shintaro Higashi put it best when he said something along the lines, 'Street needs sport needs tradition' Take for example Kani Basami which came from old Judo. It was developed on the battlefield, practiced and banned in sport, kept alive by tradition, and reborn in modern day submission grappling as a part of an advanced leglocking system.

[@sliderx1897]

Thats like what Robert Drysdale said when he went and studied judo in japan he was amazed that all the black belts showed up to class early, helped out the instructor and cleaned up the dojo after class. He said in bjj that concept was completely foreign.

[@BBP081]

Just remember that there might have been more BJJ tournaments in 2019 than there were in total before UFC 1. The more people get involved, the bigger the data set, the more information that can potentially be transmitted. Of course, the signal to noise ratio is a factor but I feel unqualified to comment on if that has changed over the years in regards to BJJ.

[@iorekby]

Especially because compared to today, what with social media etc... so little of what was being done back then wasn't as well documented. It's pretty arrogant to just assume things are "better" today.

[@micaylapresley]

@@iorekby No it's not. We have access to online resources, far more black belts, and a lot more competition experience than they did back then. The standards have risen, the game has become more complex, and people are cross training more than ever before. We have even incorporated psychology, biomechanics, and kinesiology to learn how to learn BJJ more efficiently. We still have all of their stuff, but so much more now. They couldn't handle modern grapplers back then, they'd be completely confused by our weird inversions and guards. It's arrogant of you to think that others can't learn from the past and improve on what's been around for 100 years.

[@iorekby]

@@micaylapresley I'm sorry but you don't. We don't have most of Rickson's BJJ matches for example. They just don't exist, all we have are anecdotal accounts. Eddie Bravo in 2003 was famed for his "Rubber Guard" innovation. Turns out that was invented by a Brazilian guy in the early 80s and one of the guys at Jean Jacques showed Eddie. It's just recency bias. Tyler Spangler has a video of a world class purple belt from today rolling with an old school BJJ black belt who has not competed in over a decade. The Black belt clearly dominates the roll, despite doing basically a bunch of try and tested fundamentals rather than fancy stuff. It's more recency bias than empirical fact things are better today. More techniques does not mean better. Roger Gracie used to smash guys for 20 years who had "invented" lots of new techniques again by using basic fundamentals. I'm not saying there isn't room for innovation or the physical condition of the athletes has not improved, it's just we cannot say for sure BJJ skill is at an all time high because we don't know for sure how good it was in previous generations. Skill here is how well people did something. Not how many random techniques they can remember.

[@PunchProfessor]

In the early 1990's before the UFC, I was at my sons Children's Judo Class @ Miami Dade College. The Judo instructors introduce me to some fellows who were BJJ practitioners, last name Gracie from Brazil South America. They worked with the instructors, and rolled with the instructors. I was more than entertained for sure and was highly Impressed with both my sons instructors, and the BJJ Gracie guys ! Thanks for posting brought back some cool memories ! Paul D'

[@christophergallimore5529]

Did your Judo instructors do well against the Gracies when they were rolling?

[@m5a1stuart83]

Correct Professor. I dont know who my lineage is but one thing for sure, my instructor is Sempai Haris. Well atleast I know how to do Judo.

[@jchisholm1968]

The fact that something existed in the past doesn't automatically mean that it's been improved upon. Things change, but not always for the better. Martial Arts are a good example, where knowledge has been lost over time, & as a result the techniques have become watered down & misinterpreted.

[@iorekby]

It's called recency bias + a healthy dose of ignorance. Social Media wasn't a thing 25 years ago, so kids today who believe this have zero clue what BJJ guys were doing back then. A lot of supposedly "new" innovations in BJJ are anything but e.g. the berimbolo only became popular in the last decade but has been around for nearly 20 years and there have been documented cases of OG guys using this back in the day in Brazil.

[@msihcs8171]

I can play devil's advocate with that one. MMA wasn't as much of a thing in the past either, so is it possible that Jiu Jitsu practitioners today don't practice things that are ill equipped to combat other arts? There are a number of arts that have greatly evolved due to MMA some of which have basically been born from it. The ability to combat practitioners of other arts is much more relevant today than it was 25 years ago.

[@VonRibbitt]

@@iorekbyhealthy does of ignorance? no type of ignorance is healthy at all

[@tzaeru]

There's no knowledge regarding techniques that's been lost in the context of BJJ or MMA. Helpfully we have video all the way from the beginnings of those sports.

[@iorekby]

@@tzaeru I mean there's literally no way to know that lol! BJJ and MMA have been happening for a long time, long before the UFC.

[@rohitchaoji]

I've heard about belts just being given away in TKD and also in Karate, but I've always known that belt promotions in BJJ are notoriously hard.

[@LeArmBoss]

Trained with Soneca a couple weeks ago. Still tools modern black belts. My coach trained with Braga and he said that even though Braga is like 30lbs smaller he made him feel like a white belt. Megaton still competes at adult level black belt. "Old school" is still viable.

[@moimeme9861]

Always a pleasure to hear you. Thanks

[@rangelo8908]

Great video! A few things: Helio & Carlos never learned directly from Maeda. They learned from his study Jacintho Ferro. When they were learning, Maeda was working with Japanese immigrantd to Brazil. Even Maeda was taught under Tomita Tsunejiro, who was a first generation Kodokan Shodan. Also, everything in "bjj" has existed in Judo previously. Nothing is new. From de la riva to ashi garami. Nothing new. These guys 'inventing' have problably not studied their own history. Most don't.

[@jonNH123]

I love your videos and have learned a lot from them. Thanks!

[@edwardhim2276]

You make a great point about the older generations wanting the next generation to surpass them. Also you have a great voice!

[@OGFITNESS]

Like you said, there is nothing new under the sun. I'd rather be a black belt of the past that can vale tudo then a purple belts who can only do sport. 😁🙏🙇‍♂️

[@scotburns3991]

Just found your channel... Great video: logical, thoughtful and sincere... Could listen to you all day...

[@MobiusCoin]

I don't think the point is to disrespect the black belts of yesteryear. But it's undeniable that jiu-jitsu has a whole has evolved tremendously in the last 25 years. Far more than any other martial art. And unlike other martial arts, its kept its competitive nature and its sparring ethos despite its growth in popularity. And that's a good thing. You want the next generation to be better than the previous one. If your art isn't producing better fighters today than it was in the past, there's something wrong with it.

[@CervusGreen]

Fair points. It goes to show that when asking this sort of question, you have to be very specific in what you are looking for. MMA competition? Vale tudo? BJJ comp (and what rules)? Lots of variables.

[@davidjadeaeckhard9625]

Ramsey! Thank you for another first rate video. I am always quite impressed with your content (and presentations). It is inspirational to know the methodology used in your study of the North-South position. I really appreciate your clear mind and pragmatic approach to acquiring knowledge. Pure respect.

[@bryantharris5914]

I think it's important to give some context to what the Gracie's did with their style. Before the UFC let the world know about BJJ, the Gracie's had found a hack of sorts. A short cut to beating other styles. Fight a striker? The Gracie's didn't need to take the time to develop elite striking because they could exploit the striker's lack of knowledge in ground fighting. Just dictate where the fight takes place, take them to where their striking is useless. Submit them. Fighting a Wrestler or Judokah? Wrestlers primary work to pin you on your back, it's a sport after all. Judo (the ancestor of BJJ) they only trained to a limited time window on the ground after the throw if at all. The Gracie's likely wouldn't win at the actual takedown against either, but were comparatively safe being pinned on their back and spent more time developing their submissions. 30 years ago, they could beat both because they would outlast the takedown portion and win from their backs. This was the world of the early 90s. Study BJJ, in the shortest amount of training time you'd have absolutely practical real world fighting skills. It totally exposed other martial arts. That world also no longer exists. After the UFC striker's began to learn submissions, maybe more importantly they learned they could also... with some care, often just stand up to return the fight to their feet. They were no longer helpless on the ground and they could do to BJJ what BJJ had done to them. They can expose the lack of striking skills from a traditional BJJ practitioner. In terms of pure grappling, when you add in points, eliminate strikes, a whole bunch of new strategies to stall, to point, to use positions that are terrible when striking is allowed all have been adopted to 'beat' classic BJJ as it was taught by the Gracies 30 years ago. If you pluck Royce Gracie with his skills in the early 90s and drop him into an MMA fight, he probably has no chance. He wouldn't be able to dictate the fight to the ground, his striking would be exposed. In other words, the world has evolved. The entire Martial Arts community owes the Gracie family a huge debt of gratitude. They left many traditional martial arts totally exposed as impractical. The others that wanted to really fight evolved into MMA, the most effective combat techniques our world has ever known. MMA isn't Gracie Jiu Jitsu, but it exists because of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. I think Ramsey is spot on. A Purple Belt of today could probably beat black belts from 30 years ago given todays rule set, but they would struggle fighting out of weight class against strikers i a real combat/fight situation where as those old black belts would have a chance. I think you could still argue BJJ gives you the shortest path to fighting effectiveness in the shortest period of time. I mean it would still work against the untrained, the traditional martial artists, people larger than you, it's just not the same universal blueprint to beat all styles like it once was.

[@GoNukem123]

Thank you for your wisdom Ramsey Dewey!

[@Eisschranck]

Thanks for including the extra film footage in the video. Really ups the quality of the video and helps to understand.

[@MG-bi6mq]

People have been fighting each other for a very long time. Most things we think are new and innovative have been done before. It just depends on what is most effective at the time. Iain Abernethy had a great discussion on “The Common Origin Myth.” That video could be a good follow up to this one.

[@JohnSmith-mo6re]

@9:50 I was taught this recently. I believe it was called a scorpion lock. Our taught setup was going from side or reverse scarf to north-south, forcing his arm up towards his head, but then LETTING him get the near arm in (we pretend it wasn't intentional, but it was bait all along).

[@ifassnacht]

You had me at the cheesy ad at the end! Hahaha

[@Fontzig]

I really like your open mind and ability to see both sides of an argument. Oss 🙏

[@matthewbailey9405]

I believe martial arts have benefited from modern sports science and in many respects have potentially improved. I believe the 'problem' modern BJJ has is that as the style grows and more people take it up, the number of what you might describe as sub standard practitioners has risen with it. I once trained with a BJJ practitioner in a Karate class and despite his confidence in the infallibility of his style, he simply couldn't apply his techniques on anyone. I think Ramsey has said before something along the lines of "not all belts are equal", while BJJ may have only got better over the years not all purple (or even black) belts will train to the same standard and as such I think it is better to compare individuals from now and back then rather than theoretical standards attached to the colour of their belt.

[@sajeelharriraj6760]

I think as time went on, better training methods have changed the way people train making it easier for people to train longer with less injury, and also people now have alot more opportunities to learn BJJ whether it be through MMA or no-gi or GJJ itself so I think we have people that are sparring/learning more than those back then, I don't think they are better but different since they are training different

[@rwdchannel2901]

I tend to agree with you because I'm not an expert in BJJ.

[@buckleupteddy]

But are you at least in it

[@southpawmoose]

Rickson Gracie is widely reguarded as one of the best Jujitsu guys around, and he lives by traditional techniques which stress maximum effect and minimum effort, the mantra of both Gracie Jujitsu and Kano's Judo.

[@Draalnexa]

I was taken aback by the question thinking the biggest problem was the context. You hit the nail on the head with this one.

[@Fanaro]

Maybe purple belts is a bit of a stretch, but I do believe the sport as a whole is advanced enough to have legends of the past lose almost always (if they had time to adapt, that would be a different story). That's actually the consensus both in Go and Tennis, from both the legends of the past and players of today.

[@henrykim921]

That may be true for some things but far from all. Conditions change. Equipment gets better which is one of the main reasons in tennis. Rules get softer which makes things easier. And big money waters down entire sports and industries. Simplistic comparisons using simple metrics while not acknowledging these and many more differences is why people assume things now are always just better. Not true in many cases.

[@FR-ty5vn]

@@henrykim921 right - and in most sports the legends of old had to endure, persevere, and conquer hardships not present today….

[@swedishbutcher]

Great insight.

[@ironmikehallowween]

I think BJJ is suffering the same fate as other martial arts have experienced in the past: popularity. As Yogi Berra said “ it’s so popular, no one goes there anymore”.

[@harliiquinnstarlight]

I don't think that that's happening I think it's just starting to really explode still to become even more popular

[@ironmikehallowween]

@@harliiquinnstarlight popularity kills everything or slowly reduces to the lowest denominator; just like pop music

[@sliderx1897]

@@ironmikehallowween thats when the quality drops

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

Very convincing arguments and a good video!

[@jakej1727]

Most sports statistics show a marked improvement over time. As new training techniques develop and moves are refined, athletes and trainers find minor flaws in the previous methods and work to fix them. The sport matures. In addition to this, there is a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the ability to access information. 20 years ago, my Professor lived in a relatively large city and still had to drive over an hour each way to his academy because it was the only one in the area. His professor and his fellow training partners represented the entire breadth of BJJ knowledge in the area. If that instructor wasn't good at ______ you didn't train _______ (at least as often). Now folks can hit an open mat at the gym down the street, go to a seminar with one of the many world class black belts, purchase a Danaher DVD and practice on some garage mats, or watch a KZbin channel. I would say practitioners today have a much easier time gaining a wider breadth/depth of BJJ knowledge/experiences. As such, they are able to gain skills much faster than practitioners in the past.

[@brucebickley6866]

Once again, that voice! You got me hooked on the subject bruh 😎

[@timthompson6025]

I think purple belts today probably are more specific in their fighting style. That being said, the different cultural/historical context probably would make it so that if the old fighters in the new age would have trouble adjusting aswell as the younger fighters having trouble adjusting to older fighting styles that might have been more brutal in nature. But talking this hypothetically and abstractly is difficult for me because I don't have that much knowledge in fighting (I'm a 2 stripe whitebelt in bjj :) )

[@hythemali6841]

My brother recently started bjj and he asked me how to tell if someone he meets knows what they are talking about. I told him to ask about the lineage and see how many steps it takes to get to Maeda. The least steps the better. It’s funny that others do similar stuff

[@Berengier817]

Handsome Squidward is correct However I think BJJ is far more common than Judo, at least in the USA

[@LeyvatenLoop]

That's probably more an USA thing, with judo not being very popular there. Here in Brasil I can find judo schools almost as easily as bjj schools. Considering bjj was created here, and had a LOT of good publicity, that shows how widespread judo is to still be comparable in popularity

[@Berengier817]

@@LeyvatenLoop That's why I did put the USA comment, because I know that the USA is not the world. Shocking that there are some Americans who understand that lol Jokes aside though, I live in a very major city in the US, and there are only three Judo schools in my area, and easily at least two dozen that teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Now part of this can be because purple belts or brown belts can open a BJJ school, or a handful of MMA guys will come together and open up a school and teach BJJ with wrestling and kickboxing. If you were to go into a judo school, you would expect the judo place to be run by a black belt and not a brown belt. One Judo school refuses to teach anything other than Judo. They are a Judo club and only teach Judo, even though the instructors are deep into BJJ. They only have Judo classes. Another has an aikido class a few times a week, and it's not taught by the Judo teachers. The final one is an open school that teaches all forms of wrestling. Judo, wrestling, BJJ, etc. No strikes, but they don't teach Judo by any sports rules. Instead they teach Judo as more of a defense. You can do leg locks, ankle locks and other things banned in traditional sport Judo. Anyway again that's just here and I know here isn't the world.

[@LeighRemedios]

Agree with you. If you were a black belt 25 years ago, you could legit fight, whereas there are a lot of modern purples who cannot. Under IBJJF rules though, a guard pull to berimbolo could cause old school black belts all sorts of problems, as recognised by Enson.

[@amazingGrace108]

Difference is, modern purple belts never got punched in the face.

[@CharlesTRose]

Pedro Sauer tied a blue belt around my waist, pretty cool.

[@cbrotherwood]

As a competitive blue belt I couldn’t disagree more. And I think that’s because people don’t understand the concept of advanced fundamentals. Just because someone is doing a basic knee slice guard pass, to side control, to mount, to an arm bar doesn’t mean that they’re not doing it at a black belt level. We can see Gordon Ryan being a great example of this. Performing relatively simple basic jujitsu but successfully pulling it off against the highest level of competition. Black belts of 25 years ago like royce Gracie would triangle the crap out of competitive purple belts today. I don’t care if they’re trying to brimbolo into the honey hole and dive on a heel hook. “Do not fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks but the man whose practice one kick in 10,000 times.” Bruce Lee

[@realjaytruth]

Man that's crazy. I started developing this technique that I hadn't seen anyone do that is similar to the arm lock described at 9:45. I do it while controlling the back, I over hook the arm so it's under my arm pit, then I pull the elbow with my wrist (like a heel hook). Causing shoulder pressure. It's pretty awesome but similar to the one you showed.

[@ThatJamesGuy88]

A good purple belt today may be know more techniques than Royce Gracie 25 years ago. BUT Gracie’s fundamentals were amazing! With a little bit of exposure to leg locks and other modern influences, I’d suggest the black belt with better fundamentals would win. Fee free to disagree.

[@iorekby]

Even at that, I would question that to an extent. We don't really know what people knew 25 years ago because BJJ practitioners today get a lot more exposure thanks to social media. Plus lots of techniques does not mean better. A TKD black belt knows more techniques than a Muay Thai practioner, but I know who my money would be on in a fight assuming everything else was equal.

[@RamseyDewey]

How does a TKD black belt know more techniques than a Muay Thai practitioner? Muay Thai is a much more complex fighting style encompassing multiple ranges of combat, striking and grappling. Cataloguing clinch fighting alone would include hundreds and hundreds of techniques. TKD is kicking in competition, and in the forms: 5 kicks, 2 punches, 3 blocks, and 7 goofy looking movements no one can agree on the practical use for.

[@iorekby]

@@RamseyDewey Because of the taxonomy of TKD. Some ITF TKD has ended up over-egging the pudding and claims it's black belts know "3000 techniques". Number of techniques does not equate with complexity. Boxing for example probably has a fairly small number of "techniques" but is complex to master. TMA like TKD have traditionally made boast of the sheer number of inane classifications to artificially make it seem it's high number of "techniques" is a value add. IMO it isn't as many are pointless e.g. many of them cannot legally be done in free sparring like wrist locks or leg kicks etc... Just to be clear, I am not suggesting Muay Thai is simple. What I am saying is that claiming something is "superior" simply on the basis that it artificially has a higher number of "techniques" is facile. As you rightly point out, something which may not have superficially as many techniques (like Muay Thai) as say ITF TKD is still complex to master. No one is saying it isn't. In the case of BJJ, people claiming modern BJJ athletes are "better" because they know more "techniques" is facile. It's much much more nuanced than that.

[@ThatJamesGuy88]

@@iorekby I don’t know that modern combat athletes know more techniques. That’s why I said “maybe know more.” At the end of the day, regardless of number of techniques-I believe fundamentals win. Feel free to disagree.

[@martialartsclub2032]

bjj is dveloping in a different way than most thought 25 yrs ago

[@Taekwon-Brando]

The fundamentals and style that the Gracies displayed are usually tricky for modern players to get around, even simple stuff like closed guard

[@michaelbrown655]

Great people learn new ways to do old things. This is where strategic and tactical evolution come from.

[@Silduril]

Lots of valid points, good video. Something you did not talk about explicitly, which I find more elucidating in this context than looking at the evolution of techniques, is simple statistics: We have a FAR greater number of Jiu Jitsu practitioners today than we did in the days of Helio Gracie, because the popularity of the sport has grown. It follows that there is a higher chance of outstanding individuals like Marcelo Garcia or John Danaher becoming involved in the sport and elevating the overall skill level of the community. A greater number of athletes and teachers also means more competition, which forces those at the top to improve even more than they otherwise would. Whether this effect is strong enough to mean that the average purple belt today could hang with old school black belts is of course a different question, which you explored quite well. By the way, I'm still waiting for your response in our previous discussion...

[@I_leave_mean_comments]

If you ever catch anyone in that outside armlock and they ask you where you learned it... you should said "Hélio Gracie taught me".

[@mattveinykolichuk3298]

That voice That voice alone got me to sub

[@blockmasterscott]

I'm gonna start this off by saying that I'm a stand up martial artist who has specialized in forms competition over fighting. I did a lot of full contact in the 90s, but my forte was mostly forms competition, and that has something to do with Ramsey's video. Today's international forms competitors are so much superior in forms than the Asians from the 60s and 70s and early 80s in everyway. Their techniques are more precise and more crisp, and they do the techniques so much faster. However, and this is a HUGE however, they don't have the martial spirit that the guys had back in the day. They position the foot wrong and make their kicks head high when the application was for the ribs for example. They look nice, but being a former forms judge, I can see that they do not know the applications for the forms from watching their body language and facial expressions. Sorry if this was out of context, I just thought it might pertain somehow to the purple belt topic.

[@jamestaylor5995]

My Professor, Klay Pittman, received his black belt from Carlos Machado making my lineage as easy to trace as anyone. Machado comes and teaches a special class about twice a year which I always enjoy attending.

[@LS-sx5qo]

There is no canadian geometry...but there is always a japanese word for a grappling move 😂

[@samalextij445]

I think it's possible that the black belts would lose in a tournament in the present if they didn't get ANY time to train, but I think if they can train even a little im the present then it'd be exponentially harder to beat them

[@reddragon3733]

Ramsey you are 100% correct. Just check out the old videos of the Gracie school taking on anyone from the street. The different Gracie or their students would take on much larger men from the street.. All tried to punch or kick but the Gracie BJJ would always win. Street fighting before MMA ring. Royce Gracie did so well in the no rules ring because he was trained that way. It was part of their BJJ training & culture. Most real fights end on the ground. It's a fact. Kick Boxers, Boxers, stand up because those are the rules. Most Kick Boxer's in the no rules ring against a BJJ practitioner end up on the ground. Ken Shamrock did the best against Gracie because of his judo & wrestling background. But having outweighed Gracie by at least 40lbs, Gracie beat him. In their second match Shamrock cut Gracie above the eye so bad they stopped the fight. I believe Gracie would have won if allowed to continue. Plus, a belt color is relative to the school training. Skill of each person, etc. I've seen lower belt colors beat higher ranking. Each school, depending on the training time, conditioning, and teaching can be different from another. The standard of training in that school. I know in the Gracie BJJ system it takes years to advance. In my experience most people that win the fight are the one's that stick to the basics of the discipline. Thanks for this interesting & controversial topics!

[@bombastikderteutone6858]

A twinkling In their fathers eyes😂😂😂 Man this really made my day I did not know this saying- but it surely is very charming haha Cheers!

[@johnm249]

1994 I was a Judo Sankyu equal to BJJ Purple Belt. I also had experience as a Golden Gloves Boxer and WKA State Champ kickboxer in 1988 to 1990. White, Green, Brown x3, Black Belt in Judo ranks. So in 1994 I spend 1 week in Santa Monica at Rickson Gracie school and I beat the crap out of all the BJJ Purple Belts

[@6amsensei945]

Roger Gracie Came back and submitted the most dominant ibjjf competitor (Marcus Buchecha) fairly handily. Definitely valid points. But as a new age Black Belt who received my black belt back last September after 9 years of training, some of the old school guys have taught me a lesson or two, and some of the new age purple belts

[@deathtoyoutubeandtwitterbu5865]

Kimura is my favourite BJJ practitioner. Guy was invincible

[@fitrasantosopranata6796]

Make a video about bjj & luta livre history

[@jintarokensei3308]

I didn't know belts could fight. Imagine if that.

[@ddg-fi5bp]

For one, it will take a decent amount of time to catch up to the state of the leglock game now, at least being able to be competent at defending them against a competition nogi purple belt. What is amazing about bjj is it is so young and open that it has much potential for evolution.

[@michaelujkim]

Yes, mma/vale tudo is a different sport that jiujitsu, but then wouldn’t a better comparison be with a modern mma fighter with a purple belt?

[@Arman-jx7hu]

Extremely interesting!!!

[@FR-ty5vn]

Exactly - they were fighting NHB, not doing a grappling tournament…

[@808hunter1]

Discovering a technique on one's own, does not mean that the technique was invented by him... Almost every practitioner will eventually discover many techniques that have been in play for many years!

[@chuckmadden18]

lol you changed my mind with the old school accolades of Rickson and Royce Gracie.

[@Beithyr]

"I learned from a picture of a guy a long time ago" - the HEMA comunity in general

[@SwordTune]

More like "I tested my interpretation of these techniques through hundreds of hours of training and competition with independent fencers around the world."

[@SpiceofLifevariety]

"there is nothing new under the sun", my guy with the Ecclesiastes quote.

[@harliiquinnstarlight]

I can trace my liniage in 4 steps to Helio. Gracie. My instructor learns from Ryron and Rener, and well the rest is farther and grandfather

[@jamestaylor5995]

1. It depends on the rule set. IBJJF vs BJJ with striking. 2. What does an old school Black Belt know that a modern day purple belt doesn't know?

[@Hugh_Jurrection]

With all martial arts, the fundamentals are the same but the style will change. Boxing for example, the basics are all the same (jab, hook, right cross etc) but the style changes, Philly shell, Southpaw, Orthadox etc. Now the important thing is to know all the fundamentals to a high level and then develop your style. If you look at the Gracie's, they all know the basics to the Nth degree, but the style has developed over the years as the sport has evolved. For example there are Gi and Non Gi disciplines. The basics are still the same, but the style is different. So if we travelled back in time, who would win? It's all about the context of the fight.

[@kwstarasgr8408]

Hey ramsey can you do a video on how to do correctly lunges squats and deadlifts i know people who have been working out for years and because of these exercises they have earned a herniated disc or worse. We need to be shown exactly how those exercises should be done. (I know it's offtopic but i dont have ur mail)

[@RamseyDewey]

Check out Juggernaut Training Systems, they have a series of five part videos “the five pillars of good deadlifting technique”, “squatting technique”, etc. There are many videos on that topic on KZbin, but those ones are EXCELLENT. I might make my own, because martial artists tend not to watch strength training channels for some reason.

[@pihee]

Where can we find the clips from old judo demonstrations?

[@maxzhao8331]

very interesting!

[@kdog3427]

In 35 seconds in, and I am gong to say no. Black Belts 25 years ago were more focused on actual fighting and not a grappling competition, but I'll continue watching. That is my first reaction.

[@ninedragonblade5653]

I kind of thinck that basic means in this contexts simple right ? Like trying “basic” in early ufc like having good basics it’s hella hard and to apply them to a MMA it’s way harder

[@gilkennedy7638]

This argument is the same in all other sport, and the response as well, we would need a time machine to know who's right or wrong anything in the mean time is just talking, but too Ramsey point its fun to talk so we can learn.

[@cahallo5964]

I'd love to fight on a Vale Tudo match but everything is closed here and I am rather sure it's illegal to organise a private one over here, this sets a question, you've talked a lot of times about being a pro fighter and a referee, so this makes me ask you if you have any idea about promoting? have you ever promoted someone or organise a tournament or something? what's the process for that?

[@alannorman4097]

Can anyone enlighten me on whether Budo JJ is worth doing for self defence.

[@Cavouku]

As a rule of thumb, the best things to train for self-defense are situational awareness, conflict de-escalation, and cardio. More-or-less in that order. If it comes to blows and there isn't an escape option, or you're buying time for a dependent to escape, or some other probably-unlikely scenario, it's considered by most to be less-than-ideal to go to the ground. Especially if there are multiple assailants, especially if they have weapons (or at least, if you can't be sure they *don't* have weapons). Probably good to know and understand wrestling and grappling, but not for the reason you're thinking - you'll want to learn how to escape grabs, holds, pins, etc., because the more escape options you have from more scenarios, the better. Knowing how to escape these things will almost assuredly mean knowing how to apply them, but that will probably not be your focus in a self-defense scenario.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

Yes and no. In the street, you may need to avoid take down and kicking for the risk of getting your legs catched or the friends of the guy you just brought down to the ground decided to intervene. On the other hand, BJJ open you to the option of safely controlling a drunken guy where you can accidentally kill him if you opted for the boxing diplomacy. I think the best example is when Ryan Hall safely controlled a drunken guy in a bar. Imagine if that was the Diaz brother, guy would be dead just from the right hook. Then again, Nate is a black belt BJJ too so he may choose the submission route.

[@zealandsword9557]

Capitalize on your strengths, know how to fight all around, there’s something to learn from everything, however know how to strike pre dominantly. People think that grappling might be the sole answer, but here are the factual stats. Since UFC 31, there have been a total of 546 fights inside the octagon. Of these, 225 have ended by knockout, 138 by submission, 141 by unanimous decision, 31 by split decision, three by majority decision, and three by disqualification. There have also been three draws and two no-contests. (Interestingly, the knockout to submission ratio translates similarly into street altercations) On average, the top 5 “greatest” UFC fighters won more fights due to knockouts in comparison to submission. In the UFC, the two primary practiced martial arts that account for most title bearing fighters are Wrestling and BJJ. With that being said, a knockout is still the simplest and most effective way to win on average, even with expertise in grappling. Stats also demonstrate that it takes shorter time to knock someone out on average. These rules apply and adhere in a street altercation as well. These are not necessarily strictly black and white statements, You’re only your best if you capitalize on your strengths, however, these are the numbers.

[@alannorman4097]

Wow! Very thought through answers and I thank you all for your time and expertise.

[@someguynamedgod2342]

This reminds of something I was thinking of the other day about how bjj went from vale tudo to ibjjf rules in competition. It’s just that different rules mean a different outcome. The old school guys would do better than most ibjjf in mma or vale tudo but the new age does better in ibjjf.

[@digdawg299]

I learned the same technique from a shoot wrestling seminar. I didn't have a name for it either and this is the first time I seen that armlock in at least 11 years.

[@gbruceg5138]

Good history lesson 👏

[@joesphruggiero3707]

Depends basics is good in real fights! Your right on jits 100%vale tudo fights

[@MrMagnaniman]

You touched on it, but the individuals in question are a HUGE part of "who would win in a fight?" Technique is part of that, but nowhere near the full story. A better question might be whether the old-school fighters could beat themselves if they had received modern training instead.

[@simoneriksson8329]

I think that the statement "a purplebelt of today knows more tecniques than a blackbelt 25 years ago" could very well be true but as you point out the older blackbelt would be better at appliyng his tecniques in something like a vale tudo fight. When we talk about who or what is "better" its often important to be very specific with what its better for/at.

[@johnm249]

Actually old school Judo was Badass. Leg locks, Neck cranks, spine locks.

[@6amsensei945]

The more I learn, the less I use. To use less, I have to learn more - JJ Machado

[@bluntbeagle797]

yeah ramsey. looking fine as always

[@XciccibonziX]

Ramsey, can I suggest you to put some background music in videos like this? Even LoFi stuff. I think it would make the experience better

[@makaiev]

People have been fighting for houndreds of thousands of years... As society evolves combat sports becomes more thoroughly regulated, better equipped etcetera so by extension more civil and accessible. The human body still the same, so the tools fighters have and the people they where fighting are just like us technically. But took a lot of work, a lot of trial and error to get where we are and with all those long processes its easy to loose sight of things like there are only so many directions and vectors the human body moves and therefore the ways to brake it have been the same. Sure you can go about learning it in more fancier and comfortable ways than in the 1700's, but still twists, cranks, levers and hard blows. Jack Johnson was basically as much of a treat to your jaw as Ngannu is, the sport just changed...

[@allenjenkins06]

I think another important consideration in comparing eras is the quality of modern training for elite athletes. In gridiron football, basketball, baseball, probably boxing, etc., I would hypothesize that the modern athletes are on the whole stronger, faster, and better conditioned (I'm not perfectly pleased with that last word because it's a bit vague). The difference between eras regarding skill, toughness and mental grit is a different, tougher question, but also very important to consider. Ted Williams is probably the best hitter ever, but you put Albert Pujols in a time machine, and that's going to be rough on the fellas in the past.

[@mmaacademyonline2250]

Today’s Jiu Jitsu is a large part based on sport unless your training for an MMA fight. The Gracie Challenge & the Gracie mindset was about being a superior system for self- defense. When you throw strikes and don’t wear gloves Jiu Jitsu is different. Rules and straight grappling also make Jiu Jitsu Different. I agree everything has probably been done before somewhere in Time. I really think your environment is a big part of how your Jiu Jitsu is played. So if you live in a 3rd world country and life is hard then your gonna scrap a lot and your Jiu Jitsu or martial arts in general may have a different meaning. Very hard to say this set of people are better then this set if you can’t account for their culture environment.

[@d2rpnoy909]

The Berimbolo and Heel Hooks changed the game in the last 10 years. If a modern day Berimbolo specialist purple belt competed in a tournament today against an old school Black Belt with no knowledge of how to defend , the black belt would get his back taken and lose by points or get choked out 100%. Same goes with heel hooks in a no-gi tournament, a Heel Hook purple belt specialist vs old school black belt. The Heel Hook specialist would catch and submit an old school black belt right away with a good leg entry. You probably already know some good examples of great specialist who have black belt level blue belts/purple belts are DDS guys for Heel Hooks and ATOS/AOJ guys for The Berimbolo.

[@dr.floridamanphd]

If you have no knowledge of how to defend yourself then you have no business being a black belt.

[@harliiquinnstarlight]

Ken Shamrock was a catch wrestler and specialized in heel Hooks and he didn't beat Royce Gracie

[@harliiquinnstarlight]

Also no black belt would get their back taken because that is one of the first things you learn is how not to get your back taken

[@m5a1stuart83]

Under what? IBJJF? or Street fight? Street Fight for Old School is better, they have good throwing and some top tier BJJ Blackbelt even fought in Judo Tournaments.

[@vincechanhealthy6373]

actually a pretty cool video.