Range forgiveness Heavy Arrow vs light arrow: Archery Education Video 5

We are back again this time looking at how heavy vs light arrows perform when you miss judge or shoot for the wrong range. Follow along as we discuss and learn about all things archery. Thank you for you question and comments feel free to reach out on instagram @L.E.A.P._Outdoors for more personal question.
Video 5 archery education;
Ballistics calculator
mimkr.bplaced.n...
Future videos:
Animal drop heavy vs light arrows;
Broadhead design
Arrow geometry and fletching effects on drag and energy,
Bow tuning effects on energy loss
Bow tuning effect on penetration
Arrow impact angle effects
Arrow momentum
Target/animal forces opposing penetration
and more as the questions come in.
Archery Testing
Archery Gear:
Prime Revex 4
spot Hogg fast Eddie XL tripple stack
Hamskea rest
tight spot quiver
stan solex release
victory rip 250 spine shafts TOA 530 fletched speed 273fps
Mathews VXR 28
black gold pro sight
day six hd 250 spine
hamskea rest
tight spot quiver
Camera gear:
Sony A7c
deity d4 duo mic
tamron 28-200mm
tamron 20-40mm
Sirui tripod
Iphone 13 pro max
Gear review and testing videos coming as well
#archery #education #outdoors #physics #bow #arrow #arrows #penetration #foc

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Hey everyone thanks for watching! I have a lot of videos planned that we will get to in time. What are you hoping to discuss first? Bow tuning, broad heads, arrow builds, other? List it below. Thanks again, Lucas

[@jonswiney6345]

Your content is outstanding! It’s far more meaningful/educational than most archery content online. Your efforts are greatly appreciated!

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Wow, thank you! That’s a major compliment.

[@philiptweet5970]

Finally someone did the work and put it on paper. Everyone on KZbin is just haters of all but light and fast…. Just shoot what you comfortable with.

[@Australian_Made]

✌

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

I agree there is advantage to each! Thanks for watching!

[@TheBladeSled]

Broadheads and arrow builds are preferred topics. Keep it scientific.

[@randyferreira5265]

Great work and video.I like the middle of the road arrow weight around 450 to 460 arrow weight with around 16% foc .It gives me a good trajectory out to 50 yards and still has plenty of energy.The main thing is a well tuned bow and perfect arrow flight!

[@mansalaija]

Like your videos 👍 One thing to keep in mind when shooting heavier arrows is the parabolic curve it will have when hunting in the timber, don’t hit that branch! I always go for the middle spectrum of things (not too light and not too heavy) while trying to maintain as flat of a trajectory I can possible get.

[@deanbrantley]

Im on the arrow build struggle bad. I love the way a big heavy arrow calms my bow down but love the way a super light arrow hits. More than likely headed to super light with a fixed blade for everything. I’m more in the mindset, it’smore about the broadhead choice than ever before.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Absolutely agree about broadheads! I went heavy on arrow because it made my old bow much more quiet and less vibration…. My new bow doesn’t care it’s the same whether it’s 386 grains or 705 feels exactly the same, still deciding, I’m going to build some really light sub 400 grain shafts with shaft stiffeners to test how they perform. Thanks for watching.

[@pensnut08]

Love your videos!!! I'd like bowtuning.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

I'll work it in thanks for the comment.

[@rustinpeace7466]

I feel like every proponent of lighter arrows mentions trajectory. Can't say I've run this stuff through a BC before but that's good to know it doesn't change much.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

Depends on what your consider to be "much". As a percentage of accuracy lost - the difference between the 450 and 600 was 1.8-2.2" in vertical error. That's equal to hitting an entire huge 2" broadhead high or low. An loss in 29% of absolute accuracy. You increased odds of hitting too high or low (where bone is) by 29%.

[@rustinpeace7466]

@@TheArrowBuilder that's fair, I should qualify that it's not as much as I would think and not that it isn't significant in certain situations. A whitetail from top to bottom is about 12" - 16" tall so that error could easily end up being too much. I don't know the height of an elk but it has to be close to double that, so a shot closer to the shoulders has a bit more wiggle room.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

@@rustinpeace7466 Yeah that's my only point. These numbers are easy to have your eyes gloss over - I like examples like that to put things in perspective. If you're shooting 60 yds with a 600 grain arrow per his specs, that's the same as a range error of the 450 grain at 75 yds. A whole 15 yards further.

[@keithwhite513]

Also need to mention the fact that this was for zeroing at 60. This helps over/under at this particular distance but you will also be missing by more at close distance.

[@IanMainBliss]

I really like the idea of looking at how being 5 yards off changes the point of impact. In terms of hunting, I think it would be really nice to be within like.. what.. 5 inches even if you're off by 5 yards? The further out you get the harder it is to guess too. So doing that I get an effective yardage of about 30 yards with a 600 grain arrow @ 260fps and about 38 yards with a 400 grain arrow @330fps.

[@TheBladeSled]

Great videos. 430 to 450gr for me. I have good empirical data for my setup on whitetail. It tells me I have about 50gr more than the minimum needed to have a broadhead pass through a mature Missouri whitetail standing broadside at 20 yds. I shoot 27.5” at 60lb. Years ago, using 370gr total weight and a fresh Slick Trick Standard i barely got a pass through on a 20 yd broadside shot through the vital V on a big 5 year old buck. The broadhead was barely poking through the far side. So I went up to 430gr with brass inserts and Swhacker #207 2” cut. The next several broadside shots on mature whitetail stuck 6” in the dirt. I then tried 3” cut with 511gr tw but it was 50/50 to get a pass through into dirt or hanging out the back side on big does. I gave those to friend shooting 70# and 31” DL. And I went back to the 430gr arrow and added nokturnal lighted nocks for 444gr total weight. Much better ballistics than the 511gr arrows. The last mature buck was slightly quartering away at 18yds and my arrow passed through both lungs and the far leg(not bone). It was down in 30yds. Arrow was broken after pass through but did its job. 440gr is my ideal weight.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Thanks! Glad you enjoy the videos more to come!

[@Fleck10290]

Always wanted to find videos about the science of arrows. Think I've found the channel for it

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Welcome aboard! I’m here to educate myself and help others along the way.

[@landonharger2041]

Lucas your channel is great man! Love the data and information. I ponder this all the time with only pulling back 55lbs and shooting a 28 inch draw I wonder if the results would be a lot different than yours with the same test? Also a cool video would be a 4 fletched arrow vs 3 fletched arrow with multiple different fixed blade broadheads for accuracy and consistency?

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

@@landonharger2041 thanks for the feedback and support! Yes you will have a little larger drop but not a crazy amount remember one of these arrows is 700 grain flying at 242fps. You should absolutely do the test yourself or if you want to explore multiple options I have built an app to tell you all this information you can find it on iOS as archery ballistics/pro archery ballistics. Thanks for the suggestion on a video. I haven’t made a video in a couple months, hunting season got in the way, but I have a lot more planed! If you use android I need beta testers for the app send me an email at [e-mail] Take care, Lucas

[@ericlloyd8258]

Love your educational videos! Your examples and charts makes it real easy to understand. I do think that there is a much bigger difference than you think when it comes to the drop if you misjudge distance, mostly because I am usually not off by 5 yards. I honestly am horrible at judging distance and often times I am off by more like 10 yards, which can make a huge distance. Or sometimes you range an animal and they move a lot farther than you may initially think in that stressful moment.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Great point! I am terrible as well, and you are right the more miss judge you have the more you miss. Unfortunately I don’t think any arrow could make up for a miss judge of 10 yards. However I do plan on doing an updated test that will include more arrow weights and more shooters.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Thanks for the comment!

[@ericlloyd8258]

@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery More shooters is definitely a good idea. I have a 27 in draw so not long at all but my wife has a 24 inch draw and is only pulling about 45 pounds so her speed is substantially slower. I also shared your channel with Tim Connor because him and MFJJ have talked about a lot of this topic in the past but you break it down so well I am hoping they will touch on your content and help your channel grow so all bow hunters can get more educated.

[@timbow50]

Cool video. Knowing this video was just for some “ ballistic?” information it’s important hunters especially NEED to know their particular arrows trajectory. I remember when I was killing deer with a fast bow at 230-235 fps. And yes the shots were max at like 30 yards. It’s about arrow placement. So it really doesn’t matter what weight the arrow is as much as how well your sights are set to match the trajectory and the archers skill level. Knowing the drop like on a fixed pin set up is vitally crucial.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Absolutely knowing your trajectory for any arrow light or fast is critical.

[@andysmith8295]

Another point to make in this debate. I believe that the majority of hunters shooting a 500+ grain arrows or the shorter draw length guys are probably not going to launch an arrow 60 yards at a deer anyways, and they know that. Where in contrast- the sub 500 grain hunters with higher speeds are going for the shot. You could break this up into probably 4-5 categories and come up with a some more realistic arrow generalties of where a particular hunter would fit into depending on the game they are hunting. Let's face it, it seems most all the internet influencers are 30" draw length.. that is not me or my two hunting buddies at all. They blow thru everything with ease because they generate more than the average hunter..When you have limited power and you give up 1 1/2"-2" draw length the % is huge.

[@swamibr0]

Nice video.. things really open up past 60 b/t heavy and light setups. I say (at least out west) shoot the heaviest arrow with the trajectory you like. For me that’s 490.

[@edcopeland9373]

arrow flight is parabolic that 's why FOC matters

[@ArchersAnonymous-nb4ym]

What about the same test with time to target? I think the difference would be small there as well too, but would make for a interesting discussion.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

@@ArchersAnonymous-nb4ym I have a video idea with this exact comparison coming up! Thank you for the suggestion!!

[@daemonescarnifex]

Im more concerned about the max ordinate of the arrow. The difference in drop at a specific yardage isnt the issue. Its the size of the arc and how far from centerline the arrow deviates. A trajectory with a larger max ordinate is more likely to encounter obstacles in its vertical path.

[@Australian_Made]

Cool 👍👍

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Thanks

[@Everettsnumber1fan]

This is great! I’d be interested to see how the 350 vs 450 would compare in drops from 20-40? Basically how much flatter from a hunting setup.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

I could illustrate that for a variety of arrows. Stay tuned! Thanks for the suggestion.

[@joshdownard2983]

I would say don’t worry about the drop so much but the extra time it takes the arrow to get there, especially on a jumpy animal! I’m more worried about the animal jumping the string than the arrow hitting low or high

[@andysmith8295]

great job. I think you should run the same test with fixed 3 blade broad heads and see what you get.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Thank you, I will do that give me a few month of practice my groups are atrocious right now. Haha

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

Arrow builds is the big thing I do this time of year. In a couple of weeks I will have 2 sets of new arrows built & all will be nock tuned. Just in time to setup several spots for the 2024 season. I usual finish by early April. Then I'm working the farm doing some arborist work & shooting as much as I can. If u want to do something about broadheads could u combine it with arrows? I shoot the Valkyrie Centerpin system since I shoot Blackeagle X-Impact arrows which r the design for the whole thing. A few years ago many were interested in Ethics outserts & inserts . I've tried them & I have seen some failures. The same weak spot that occurs but they r straight & built very well with great tolerances. The Valkyrie Centerpin system is on a different level. They break bone like a sharp single bevel but their ability to keep going with a better bloodtrail than a single bevel. Plus the threads are on the opposite end of the component so the Centerpin goes well past the outsert buried deeper into the shaft. The field points r even the same length as the broadheads & as tough as it gets. Glad to see content that opens people's minds. I've watched too much of the arrow hitting the yardage of the rangefinder. Very little about what happens upon impact. Thanks so much.

[@ikerapt6702]

I'm suprised alot of people say this isnt a big difference. If you're deer hunting, there is a huge difference between being 5 inches high/low and 8 inches. just one inch can make the difference between a dead animal and a lost animal. I have always had great results shooting a 400 grain arrow around 300 fps. Perfect for deer

[@paolo5701]

Which is the maximum distance you shoot when you go hunting? I think he took 60y to amplify the effect, I'd you shoot at like 30y the gap will be less than half.

[@officerfoxtrot3633]

5 yards is about the most you can misjudge with any setup and have a chance for a vital hit. 60 is my max comfort range in game because of the variables that can happen that distance, but I can shoot much further accurately. This result shows that the theory light arrows will save you from misjudged yardage more than heavy isnt right. Most shots are taken well within 60 yards. If at 60 there isn’t much difference that an average shooter could notice, even closer distances will have even less effect and you’ll still be in the average vitals for deer/elk sized game

[@ikerapt6702]

​@@paolo5701 My max is actually about 60. I also just noticed his setup is insanely fast. even faster than mine so the average person will not be able to shoot a 700 grain arrow at 250 fps. also i think his speeds were calculated not chronographed.

[@lstownley]

Good testing Lucas. Keep up the exploration! Using the online Shooters Calculator, I got the following ballistics with your three arrows and listed specs: 350gr, 330fps, +5.5"@55, -6.2"@65, delta of 11.7" 450gr, 290fps, +7.2"@55, -8.0"@65, delta of 15.2" 600gr, 250fps, +9.6"@55, -10.8"@65, delta of 20.4" => roughly a 9" difference between 55yds and 65yds with your 350gr @ 330fps and your 600gr @ 250fps. Still not terribly bad with 250gr weight difference and 80fps speed difference. Were those chronographed or estimated speeds?

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

The 705 and 530 have been chronographed, I have also chronograph a 386 grain. For my bow specifically the KE at launch has been nearly constant so any weight that I don’t actually have I assume the KE is constant to find the launch velocity.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Can you drop me a link to the shooters calculator always like more information to compare. Thanks!

[@bcompton53]

We can look at it, but I would have liked to see an additional comparison, at least singled out on the calculator, for 40-45 yards. The average whitetail bowhunter should not be shooting a whitetail at 60 yards. It's just asking for trouble.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

I’ll do a short updated video later on with more distances different shooters and arrow weights. Thanks for the input.

[@paulheberling2750]

🤘

[@sierraridgereaper]

I noticed on each of the test data that was on the calculator it showed the arrows at 20" in length so those numbers would be way skewed for the average archer using 28 to 32" (avg 30") arrows so have to assume the high and low would be quite different in respect with a 10" difference in length..

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Yes and no. Yes I should have changes those values. However no because shaft length does not affect drag very much. The biggest driving factors of arrow drag are the shaft coming out square, what tip/point is on the arrow, shaft bending or paradox coming out of the bow and fletchings. The values in the video will be pretty close to real life as evidenced by the two different weight arrows I shot. I used that calculator as it produced a nice graph to look at. However, most of my calculations were done personally and not using this particular calculator. Here is a link to that calculator; mimkr.bplaced.net/bc/ Play with the values yourself and see what you get compared to in the field test. Thanks for watching, Lucas

[@SparkleDonkey]

So, if there isn't much difference in arrow drop at 60, is it correct to extrapolate that there would be even less of a difference at typical hunting distances - say 10 to 30 yards. The main difference is the speed and kinetic energy possessed by the arrow at a given distance, lighter arrows being faster but having less kinetic energy. For me, getting to a target faster is still a major benefit though because critters can move a lot in the fractions of a second they have before the arrow arrives - i.e., jumping the string. Anyway, great video, I'll need to do my own testing.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Yes! At shorter distances the difference will be less. I strongly suggest your own testing as well. Thanks for watching!

[@MrHunter2784]

Would love to see the differences between heavy arrow two blade head vs a lighter arrow four blade or use the same arrow and which one transfers more energy into the animal. I think people are so focused on penetration with weight and single bevel heads that they don’t cause the shockwave or damage internally that they think. My experience with large four blade heads seems to literally nock the wind out of them (elk) they’ll jump take a few steps and collapse, (broadside in the lungs) and the biggest difference in my arrows were the the large four blade heads 1 1/4- 1 1/2, I would think going heavy with a two blade head contradicts the purpose of the heavy arrow.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Thanks for the thought, that is something I am curious about as well. Using a heavy arrow allows the use of a very big cutting diameter multi blade. Do you have any suggestions? I’m currently ordering a number of heads for testing.

[@stevie9361]

No man. The first "con" that comes to mind is the arrow's trajectory. Plain and simple, the heavier an arrow is, the slower an arrow is. This isn’t something that necessarily decreases lethality by any means. Slower-moving heavy arrows are as lethal as they come. The downside of a slow arrow that drops quicker through the air is that it is less forgiving to misjudgments in the shot distance. Kinetic energy gets all the press, but kinetic energy is only measuring how hard an arrow is hitting something. Once an arrow makes impact on an animal, it is momentum that continues the job.A super light arrow has the speed, but looses momentum.

[@o.n.e.wayhunting]

Actually, arrows of equal momentum but differing KE, the higher KE arrow will out penetrate the lesser KE arrow build. Conversely, arrows of equal KE but differing momentum, the arrows will penetrate equally. KE is the more important factor in penetration. Momentum will help keep an arrow from deflecting, as it drives an arrow in a singular direction, but does not factor as greatly into how much an arrow penetrates as Kinetic Energy. This is why arrow speed is of vital importance. It is the greater multiplier in mathematical equations for figuring KE and Momentum. It is irreplaceable. Joel Maxfield has multiple studies on this and also goes into this topic on his sit down interview with Dudley on Duds youtube channel.

[@lawrencefranck9417]

A lot of the argument light vs heavy is the flight trajectory which translates into larger pin gaps and interference in the flight path. Match your arrow to the situation…

[@AdlerMow]

Comparing arrows from the plains vs the jungles. The plains' arrows would be only as heavy at it need to be for a certain game, but the jungles' arrows would be as heavy as practically possible (almost the size and weight of a heavy atlatl dart). At 10 yards in the jungle, it would penetrate a fist deep in a hardwood tree, go through a bison or a crocodile, etc, with a draw weight as little as 50-60lbs. With higher poundage bow and good aim, it would kill an elefant. No joke, with a warbow and a long stiff arrow, you could kill a dinosaur.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Sounds like you have more background/experience on primitive weapons and such I'd love to hear more. In cultures where they had to use what worked best for the tools they had in order to survive, its always very interesting to me why they choose what they did. Do you have any suggestions on books, literature, studies to examine these tools, I'd love to learn more. Thanks, Lucas

[@AdlerMow]

I'm fascinated with archery and have watched hundred of videos on it, specially from primitive archery pov, here on youtube, as well as dozens of pages online. I didn't read many books, but I recommend "the crossbow" by sir ralph payne gallwey, "the bowyer's bible", and "The Book Of Archery" by George Agar Hansard. Also, read what you can on primitive archery online, by people experimenting with it on forums. If you have some specific question, ask me, I will do my best.

[@AdlerMow]

Consider this: a longer arrow at the same weight and foc ballance have a lower drop than a shorter one because it have a higher drag vertically, like a closed vs an open parachute, or the longer glider wing compared to a plane. You can get away with heavy stiff arrows if they are longer. Why don't you build a 4-5 feet long stiff arrow and compare with a 3 feet long one? Many primitive cultures used the longest arrows they could, up to 5 feet long I believe.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

I understand what you're saying. However, my question is do you think there is a big enough difference between the standard range of arrows, for vertical bows, where the arrow length would be in the range of 25-32 inches? The surface area difference of each arrow relative to the density of the arrow would be quite minimal. The other issue is that increasing arrow length also increases horizontal drag slowing the arrow at a slightly faster rate. Regardless it would be something interesting to test however I would test in the realm of modern arrows used rather than a 5 foot arrow. Thanks for the question, something more to think about.

[@AdlerMow]

Tradicional arrows have a much bigger diameter than modern ones, so the have a larger surface area too. This doesn't influence much on drag, but have big influence on lift. Ancient javelins, darts and arrows are barreled, meaning they where thicker forward of center, thinner at the nock and at the point. Before metallurgy, it was hard to make a heavy head, so they adjusted arrow ballance by scrapping and thinning parts of the arrow. That created extra lift that doesn't exist on modern arrows. When the arrow is made that way, it flexes less and hit harder. With a long arrow, the thicker part of the arrow is past the bow, so it's gets thinner towards the nock, greatly reducing friction and archer's paradox as it passes the bow. They also practice Khatra, pushing the bow to the side on release to reduce even further friction and paradox. Primitive archery is more developed than current archery, machining and materials aside. You should read Saracen Archery, by Latham and Paterson, it explains in great detail all that. Still, I recommend you trying the longest arrow you can make, with the a harder corrected spine and similar foc, with the smallest one. But be certain, barreled, larger diameter arrows make a difference in this.

[@Bbbb4life]

I think the results may be more drastically different if you zero the sight at 20 yards. This is how bow sights have to be set up. I believe it would make the drop steeper

[@TheArrowBuilder]

His point is that if you think the animal is 60 - and actually is at 65. How much more range error did you get?

[@royhoglund1322]

Interesting. I thought there would have been a bigger difference.

[@darwinswarey5076]

Isn't the test flawed if you're using a faster bow for the heavy arrow and a slower bow for that light arrow?

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

It’s all of 5 ish feet per second fast. So technically it’s not the same however each bow was tuned and sighted in for each arrow rather than shooting an arrow from a bow which is not tuned for that arrow or sighted in for that arrow. It was a compromise. Both bows are 70lb 29.5 in draw. The premise really is from the math point of view apply it to your specific bow. The effective change in drop is minimal compared to what people assume including myself. Thank you for your question. 👍

[@TheArrowBuilder]

Fantastic video again - You're talking my language! I will say - we downplayed the error by saying it's small or not significant. Keep in mind that the 450 grain arrow already hit 7" high or low. 1) The difference in range error at 60 yds between the 450 grain arrow and the 600 grain arrow is 1.8-2.2". An entire 2" G5 Megameat broadhead high or low in terms of vitals you're hitting. I'd say that's something. As a percentage - the 600 grain arrow is 29% less accurate (hitting where you thought) than the 450. 1a) That's 2" higher or lower than the already 7" high or low the 450 gr hit. This is where bone is at in the Vital V. So did you really penetrate more when you increased the odds of hitting bone? 2) The difference between the the 450 grain and the 530 grain is .7-.8" and isn't as substantial but is still a Magnus Stinger Killer Bee high or low when you're already 7 inches high/low with the 450 grain. An 11% loss in absolute accuracy. 3) If you shot the 450 gr arrow at 75 yards the 5 yd range error is nearly the same as the 60 yds with the 650 yds. To say that it's too small to be significant would be to say that a 75 yd shot with the 450 gr arrow is acceptable in terms of range error alone. Which I don't think is a good idea. Range error is too large in my book.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Being honest with ourselves about effective range is really important as you mentioned, I know I need more practice that's for sure! As I said in the video shoot what you want! make sure its tuned, make sure you have a good broadhead and have fun. I'm working on a wind tunnel for vane testing and have an idea for broadhead testing as well that hasn't been discussed. The bigger test that I want to do require more money and building jigs they will take time haha. Still working on animal movement but it's nearly impossible to quantify.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery for sure! I'd like to see some more on this subject with these points I made as a devils advocate position.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery Also - I'd take a look at your 705 grain arrow speed. Doesn't look right compared to your 600 grains.

[@YoureSoVane]

I don't like the calculator. It doesn't seem to match the real world without fudging the numbers. It's a good visual but it needs to be checked against something else.

[@Lucas_Palmer_Archery]

Interesting I have compared this particular calculator to chronographed speeds as well as a personal calculator I am developing and have found it to be within 5fps or so. What are you seeing? I'm not sure what numbers could be fudged?

[@YoureSoVane]

@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery A lot of arrows I've tested (mine and others') lose 30+ fps to 80 yards, but this calculator showed 20fps with similar specs. Had to increase fletching length, increase shaft diameter, and switch to feathers to get within reason. My main arrows lose about 28fps to 80 yards.