Ranking Deltarune Theories!

Yeah I have a lot on my plate these days... Good thing there's always more chess pieces and small goat children to add to that, that will surely help :)
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[@clublab9955]

Ngl the "theres a third entities" theory feels like people are missing the point. Kris is a kid whos being controlled by an entity that they have no idea what it is. The theory just takes way Kris agency, they stop being a character, theyd be just a vessle but thats not the point of Kris.

[@trondordoesstuff]

"Ralsei doesn't use Kris' pronouns for himself" and "Ralsei isn't a prankster" doesn't necessarily preclude Horned Headband theory - it only precludes the additional assumption that, if Ralsei was the Horned Headband, he would be Kris' ideal or more childlike self.

[@guiltyflygon]

This might be some of my own bias slipping in from an earlier theory I did but the way Darkners manifest seems to be based, at least in part, on the associations with the item they are in the light world. Rouxls is my go to example because he physically resembles the rules card by being ink-colored and white and also resembles it in personality by being overly verbose and kind of useless. Ralsei has the pink horns which people associate with the headband but not anything to do with devils or red in general, unless he is secretly evil lol. Keep in mind that Hometown doesn't have Christianity, so assuming "he's lucifer (prince of darkness, goats, etc.)" might not even be possible. And then additionally there becomes a burden of asking why he looks like and is an anagram for Asriel if the two are really completely unrelated... It makes more sense than some ideas, like Ralsei is the knife or Ralsei is a combination of items, but I still think we're missing a big piece of the puzzle.

[@DemureFindings]

I do agree that Ralsei isn't a reflection of a younger ideal Kris, but I specifically think the basis that that's what the headband would represent that is incorrect. I think darkners generally represent the feelings and notions a lightner has associated with them when they open a dark fountain. A big part of Kris's characterization is the deficit between themselves and Asriel. This is displayed right off the bat through the contrast between Asriel's side of the room and Kris's. Asriel is an overachiever loved by everyone because of his kindness, or, a golden boy (a prince). Kris is the town troublemaker whose only really good at one or two things, someone who struggles with their identify and sense of self. The headband would represent Kris's desire to be someone they're not rather than an idealized version of who they are. Since the headband specifically calls to mind the dreemur families features and since the name 'Ralsei' is an anagram of 'Asriel' I think it's more likely that the headband & Ralsei are meant to represent Kris's desire to be more like their brother who they envy not only on the basis of being a monster but also on the basis of how much easier it is for him to get along with everyone. Kris wants to make friends, and be well liked but there's an inherent dissonance between how they believe that has to happen (By being overly kind to everyone, even if it doesn't seem reasonable, as is reflected by Ralsei's arc in chapter 1) and how it can really happen which is more related to one's ability to be comfortable with their own self regardless of what others think about them (Susie's arc in chapter 1). This fits pretty well into the entire escapism theme in Deltarune and it more specifically touches on the core themes of control, identity, and the struggles that can come with connecting with others when you aren't kind to yourself.

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

Did you know: Ralsie came before Undertale and Undertale was meant to be a test run for Deltarune to see if Toby could make a game like it.

[@redactedthesaurus]

Another connection that Gaster has to the secret bosses, specifically Jevil, is that Seam described their view of the world becoming “darker yet darker” after Jevil relayed the information that the strange person told him. When it comes to Kris being Chara, I think they’re probably meant to parallel them in several ways but i don’t think they’re the same person in the way that , say, Deltarune Asriel is the same person as Undertale Asriel. I say this since they look quite different from Chara physical from their hair color, eye color, and skin tone, all of which align more so with Frisk, whose name is also quite similar to theirs.

[@krisspychissp]

FRISK Remove the F and rearrange RISK K R I S

[@trondordoesstuff]

12:53 - Technically speaking, abc_123 *is* also clearly connected to Gaster, by virtue of fragments of the 7 voices heard throughout it being Gaster's voice blip, heard once again in Entry 17.

[@EpicFailureFive]

To clarify, the actual garbage noise song, and plays during Entry 17, is called "mus_smile", or I guess technically just "smile". abc_123 is the don't spoil the game message as said, and it was changed to laughter in the same robo voices.

[@vgfmak]

Nice to see a fellow "Alvin is the Knight" enjoyer. The theory seems to be building support in niche theory groups from what I've seen but it basically never gets mentioned in KZbin theory videos for whatever reason.

[@guiltyflygon]

I think some people see it as maybe too obvious at this point of theorizing? Like, it's way more interesting to say "Burgerpants is the knight XD" than to say Alvin is lol. Either that or they're really stuck to thinking that him having no talksprite means he can never be important

[@blackbloom8552]

The main problem with Alvin is that there simply isn`t much information about him yet, which make it difficult to grasp what his role in the story might be. He`s one of the most likely candidate for the knight in my mind, but the game will need to put some work to make him worthy of that position in the next few chapters.

[@theconversationalelitist6423]

I feel like Noelle wouldn't be the knight because chapter two was such a deep dive into her character. Most importantly, snowgrave means that we can control Noelle. I don't think that would be a very powerful adversary, someone who we've already overpowered

[@guiltyflygon]

I mostly agree but Undertale's geno route made a lot of the bosses irrelevant to show your power. Perhaps the knight doesn't play as big of a role in the snowgrave route as it's more focused on cutting Kris's "strings" than it is playing Raslei's game.

[@theconversationalelitist6423]

@@guiltyflygon fair enough

[@trondordoesstuff]

5:41 Ralsei doesn't technically say that "3 dark fountains = world end". While the panels do demonstrate 3 Fountains turning into the Titans, this could just be for demonstrative purposes - and the fact that he states Berdly making just *one more* fountain would bring the Roaring could be due to the fact that he would be making a Dark Fountain inside of a Dark World - which, one would expect, would have consequences. The "the fountain = world end" thing though, while very rational speculation, is technically speculation - and even if it were true, the rationalization against it could be something Kris does.

[@guiltyflygon]

If it were to be that creating a dark world in the dark world was the factor for the Roaring you'd think Ralsei would be more specific about that lol. Also you'd think he'd be more fine with leaving dark worlds open. That said, it's Raslei so who knows.

[@rafsandomierz5313]

3 fountains were to illustrate the sign of Deltarune notice that the middle Titan is more roundish his head looks like circle while others look more like wings, which symbolizes their power being equal to an angel because they are powerful beings.

[@lennyfacebutnotreally3198]

A couple of things: I think the "Kris =/= the player" theory means that Kris and The Player are different people and, unlike most games with a silent protagonist, are not a stand-in for your fantasies. In which case it is canon but that could not be what they want to say. I also think the "Ralsei is a girl" is just copium for people that find him cute and maybe attractive but don't wanna admit they are gay. I myself heavily disagree with the "third entity" theory because what's the point? if it is the 3 save files chapter one answers that with the fact that you get a rudimentary matrix-looking menu with an entity confirming your choices. And if it is "Why did Kris open a fountain after Wierd Route?" it could be explained with something in character, my personal favorite is "the only people there are gonna be Toriel (Kris' mom and an adult), Susie (well-known player denier) and either Napstablook or Undine (either of which are police officers and adults) so no matter what you try to do, it won't work". And last but not least, I just had an epiphany and I'm sorry if this ruins your bombshell theory, but could it be that the person that Spamton was talking with is Noelle? After all, they seem able to communicate with one another (or at least one way; Spamton to Noelle) and she did give him attention to the point that Spamton gave her a gift, although that might have been before the benefactor so idk but I had the idea and wanted to share. Anyways, sorry for the wall of text, have a great day.

[@bomberBrandon]

the "Ralsei is a girl" theory was made by some guy who used the fact that Susie used gender neutral pronouns to refer to Kris as evidence that they aren't actually human

[@guiltyflygon]

HUH

[@bomberBrandon]

@@guiltyflygon yeah, dude had to be told that Kris is non-binary by the comments on their video about that

[@shellpoptheepicswordmaster755]

Clearly the third entity is Toby fox the narrator who needs the story to go on even if it kris doesn't want to.

[@guiltyflygon]

The Annoying Dog superboss battle at the end of the game is going to be sick 😎

[@tysondennis1016]

I feel like there might be a secret boss who is very easy to battle, and the challenge is trying to figure out how to trigger the encounter.

[@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox]

Maybe if the 'Rouxls will be a secret boss' theory is correct that could be him.

[@djohn_3606]

10:00 I mean it is weird that Papyrus should be the egg man, but due to HalfBreadChaos theory he could be the egg man because he was hiding behind the tree on a Deltarune merch

[@rangedweevil6150]

In regards to the point you mentioned during the segment about third entity theory, about why Kris would seemingly open a Dark Fountain in their own living room, knowing the risks it has on the balance between light and dark and how that could end up triggering the Roaring and the end of the world, especially after a Snowgrave Run, where they would likely NOT want to open a fountain to prevent us from causing more harm to characters like Noelle and Berdly, I think there is an alternative explanation, and it all comes down to Ralsei. There is a clear, established difference between Kris and we, the player, and this difference extends to each party's knowledge of the game world. For example, the player instantly recognizes sans and can greet him like an old friend, despite him being a new character in Hometown and Kris never having met him before, or how we as the player understand the joke about the hospital sinks being from one tall sink that was cut in half being a reference to Papyrus's comically tall sink in Undertale. This also works inversely though; for example, Kris knows how to play piano but the ol6ayer doesn't, so when we try to make Kris play, it sounds terrible, despite it being established that they do in fact know piano by the Nurse NPC and by Noelle's kris_dreemurr_kris blog post, or how Kris knows things about Asriel that they refuse to share with us by closing their eyes when we prompt them to look inside Asriel's room in Queen's Mansion. What Kris knows and what the player knows forms a Venn Diagram, meaning there is bound to be knowledge that Kris knows thst we have no clue about. This is where Ralsei comes in; in both chapters so far, there has been a moment where Ralsei draws the player's focus away from him and Kris and instead onto Susie, first in the dungeon in chapter 1, then again in the mansion in chapter 2. During this time, Kris and Ralsei have some conversation we aren't privy to, only catching the last sentence of each interaction: "...so that's why, OK, Kris?" Ralsei seems to have told Kris something that only he they sre supposed to know, and judging by that last sentence, Ralsei is explaining to Kris why they need to do something. Is it possible that Ralsei is the one who told Kris to open the fountain in the living room when given the chance, possibly as early as chapter 1 (since the player can just refuse to leave Ralsei and Kris alone during a snowgrave route in Chapter 2), and the reason Kris didn't do it at the end of chapter 1 was because they needed to set up for Susie to be in the house at the time? Remember, Ralsei not only knows about the Legend of Delta Rune and the prophecy associated woth it, he knows further details about what happens at "worlds' edge" when he reveals the information about the Roaring in chapter 2. He clearly knows more than he's revealed, but is trying to keep that information confidential for as long as possible, possibly in order to prevent panic because, let's be honest, it sounds a lot better to simplofy the legend down to "oh yeah, things will start to get bad but don't worry, the heroes will stop it and save the world" rather than getting into the nitty gritty of "if you fail, darkness will envelope the whole world and turn the darkners to stone, leaving the lightners helpless and alone forevermore". To this end, I believe that Ralsei is subtly guiding Kris towards the best outcome by enacting a certain set of steps that ensures that future never comes to pass. That's why, even after Snowgrave, Kris still goes ahead and makes the fountain; this is something that *needs* to happen to ensure the world doesn't end. Or I'm just thinking about this way too much

[@guiltyflygon]

This could very well be true and I haven't heard anyone use it as evidence for why Kris opens the fountain at the end of chapter 2, so good thinking! Susie was definitely the outlier between the two nights, but then the question becomes, why did Kris cage us in chapter one and eat the pie if their goal was to make a fountain with Susie there? I guess they maybe could have just second-guessed themselves when they realized they'd be alone inside the fountain, who knows. Given Tea Theory from CH2 we know Kris doesn't really like Ralsei, so I've always felt that Kris opened the fountain in spite of him. It's interesting to think the opposite way then, that they might be still following Ralsei's plans even though that is the case. Maybe their distaste for Ralsei is manufactured to keep us off the scent? Or maybe being forced to do these extracurricular tasks is why Kris doesn't like him much? Hard to say.

[@slysamuel5902]

On a note about the third entity theory, one of the reasons it exists is to explain how there can be 3 save files. But, there’s a huge problem. If we’re going by the logic that it’s one soul per entity/save file. What that means is that the red soul in undertale is Frisk’s and not the player’s, but the opposite is true in deltarune. The reason why is because the player in undertale doesn’t count as having an extra file separate from frisk, but in third entity theory they’d have to. So that would mean that for some reason inside kris’ body there’s just two extra souls. And it kind of just conflicts with how undertale’s player worked, and tbh I already don’t like the third entity theory. It just makes kris’ character more boring by basically swapping a three dimensional character for two less interesting ones, one of which we’d know nothing about.

[@DogDogGodFog]

There is the theory 'Kris is Chara'. But there is also the theory 'Kris is a fusion between Chara and Frisk'. Which in my opinion makes a lot of sense, because Kris has the exact same skin and hair colour as Frisk. Meanwhile, Chara has beige (human-coloured) skin, and visibly lighter hair.

[@partymix1997]

the ralsei = girl theory is a sans = ness theory but 100x worse 0 it's by Treesicle it's really bad (and i'm pretty sure it wasn't for a joke and they actually believed it for a while)

[@LiMe251]

I think papyrus being the egg man is usually combined with papyrus being the knight (there is also more evidence that way)

[@kramkrum3672]

I think Gaster being the most secret of the secret bosses - forcing you to do everything right to even meet him - is a good way to at least reward his fans with something after all these years of speculation. Finally cement his appearance (so we can get merch, PLEASE TOBY), make him the hardest fight in either game (harder than Sans), and finally tell us what kind of person he truly is. Yeah, he might not be that prominent in the story, but I'll be really disappointed if he never even shows up or is elaborated on.

[@CalamitasCalliope]

I know I'm a bit late to this video, but i love discussing DR theories so I'm just gonna go along with each of these theories and give my thoughts on them. Kris is the Knight - A lot of what you said. I think Kris is meant to be a red herring and they are being set up to convince the player that they are evil. A lot of their design and actions are reminiscent of Chara, and that obviously sets off alarm bells in Undertale fans. So yeah, i would be willing to bet some money that Kris isn't the knight. Third Entity Theory: I'm personally not a fan of this one. The three save files can be easily explained by looking at the save menu for chapter one before you beat the game. The UI is clunky and old school, and the narration is scientific and is very obviously the person who speaks to you in the Goner Maker at the beginning of the game(who is probably Gaster but let's not get into that). Whether its a gameplay convenience or an actually important part of the story later, it would seem that these Save Files are being controlled by an outside force. Not to mention that the idea of having one soul per save file brings up a lot of questions like, "Where is Kris' and this third party's Soul? If it can save shouldn't it be inside Kris?" Though i will admit that Kris making a Dark World after Snowgrave is an issue. In my mind i see it as Kris having goals we don't understand that are worth the risk of more death. I've seen people toss around that maybe they are looking for Dess, or maybe looking for a way to get rid of the player, or maybe trying to tip their mom off to the fact that they are possessed. None of those answers are perfect, but i find them more likely than the Third Entity Theory. (Also on the three dark fountains thing, I'm not sure if that was ever explicitly stated. You could interpret Ralsei's speech to mean that, but unless I'm missing something it seemed really vague. Idk) Egg Gaster/Egg Papyrus: yeah i agree that it probably won't matter so i won't dwell on it much. But i will say that the egg room song actually has basically no musical connections to Gaster's theme, which is surprising given his theme is basically everywhere. If i had to make a guess I'd actually say the Egg Man is the Everyman. He seems perfect for a weird easter egg. Gaster is the Knight: yeah pretty much what you said. Gaster is here but i don't think he will be so obviously involved like that. Gaster Drove them insane: hm. Haven't heard that idea before. I'll have to think on that Ralsei is a girl/Asriel - yeahhhh just not big on these. The girl is just odd, but yeah i think the Asriel one doesn't make sense. Horn Headband: okay so i may be a little biased because this theory is like my baby but I'm gonna just lay out my case. I think the differences between Kris and Ralsei under that theory could be chalked up to Ralsei being what Kris thought they should be. Kind and would never be seen as creepy or a cruel prankster. A monster so they don't stick out like a sore thumb, and because they seem to have complicated feelings about their humanity. Ralsei is by definition a people pleaser, and he seems to be having an identity crisis of sorts. That would make sense if the emotions Kris had tied up with that headband revolved around them being better at pleasing those around them. The pronoun difference could even be a way to show dysphoria Kris feels, wishing they could be "normal" for the sake of those around them. That could even be a major plot point if Toby wants to get into that, or it could be left as an implication(which i find more likely if that's how it goes). Either way, Ralsei's arc seems to be heading towards him learning to be his own person and not living to serve Kris and Susie. Adding that layer to his character could really enhance that story. Sans originated from Deltarune - love this theory. Retroactively explains why Sans bleeds when you kill him(since it seems like monsters might bleed in Deltarune), and it enhances his relationship with Toriel in Undertale. I think the biggest issue to solve is Papyrus, since i don't think Papyrus could lie to save his life, and there's no way he could pretend to not be from another universe. He outright says that he doesn't know what the sun is at the end of UT so idk. Plus where are the UT versions of Sans and Papyrus if they jumped universes? Did they never exist? Why? Or was it only Sans to come over, in which case why did he leave his og Papyrus? Idk man thinking about Sans for too long gives me a headache Vessel Knight - I'm not sure on this. Your vessel is saved in the game files, and if you skip Chapter one it creates a default one for you so it will definitely be important. I'm not sure if it'll be the Knight though. I feel like the Knight is going to be an actual character we've already met or will meet soon. But idk, i could see it Chara Knight - Yeah I'm on the same page as you. If Chara does make an appearance i doubt it'll be the knight. There's no way they could be sneaking around Hometown Noelle is the Knight - Noelle is known for repressing traumatic events automatically, so i think if Noelle were to be the Knight she would not be fully aware of it. Maybe she's being possesed in some way too who knows. Also the Queen said the knight left, which is odd. She could have faked all that, but i think if its true there is so much more going on with Noelle than we know. Noelle is the Angel: i saw another commenter go into detail on all the evidence connecting Noelle to the Angel so i won't rehash that, but i will say that i think its possible that the Weird Route might continue and lead to us preparing Noelle to become the Angel. You mentioned all these gods that are more likely to be final bosses, and i agree. If i had to bet on what the final boss will be I'd say the Angel. So maybe in a normal route we fight the Angel, and we aren't strong enough to kill it so no matter how bloodthirsty we are we have to spare it. But maybe on a Weird Route we would have a really strong Noelle who is still wearing a Thorn Ring and still has access to Snowgrave. I could see Noelle's arc in that weird route being her ascending above the Angel, getting strong enough to overcome it. But that is me just spitballing ideas. Noelle is definitely connected to the Angel tho. Human Settlement Susie: i think it'd be cool. Not much else to say. Though i will mention a fun little theory is that Kris and Susie grew up in the same orphanage and the Dreemurr's adopted Kris instead of her which would explain her hostility towards Kris in Noelle's blog, and her knowing Toriel. Could be cool, doesn't matter too much Kris is Chara - i personally like to think Kris is the Deltarune version of Frisk. The biggest reason is that physically, Kris looks nothing like Chara. They have completely different skin tones, and their hair is not colored the same(though that could just be because of age or hair dye). Plus there's the red eyes. Chara is never shown with red eyes. Frisk is, but the only time they open their eyes for us to see is when Chara is possesing them. If we cross reference that with Deltarune, and we see Kris' red eyes 3 times. When they smile at the end of chapter one, when they enter a dark world, and when they open the dark fountain. For two of those three times they aren't possesed(unless third Entity Theory is right), so it seems like Kris' eyes are just red. If that was new then i think someone would've said something. And again i need to stress, Chara has never had red eyes, even when she kills you at the end of the genocide route. I think Kris is designed to make you think about Chara, get you concerned about that, and then your realize that they are really caring and overall harmless to those around them. Or they could be a completely original character. Could go either way Universal Mother Theory - love this theory. No notes Tea Theory - Practically confirmed yeah. I can't wait until other chapters release and i can see what other characters say about the tea. Escapism Metaphore - yeah. It just is. I also like that Castle Town represents being careful with it but not cutting it all out. You can have some escapism, but don't go to far with it Evil Ralsei - a lot of people point to his weird dialogue after Spamton Neo, but i think it is important to remember that ignoring difficult things seems to be his coping mechanism. Multiple times throughout the game when something scary, dangerous, or just daunting is brought up he will say something to the effect of "But let's not think about that now." I think the weird Spamton Neo dialogue was him genuinely trying to help Kris and just doing a bad job of it. And i think that describes what i think Ralsei is doing. Whatever he is up to he truly believes it is what is best for Kris, Susie, and the world. He just might be wrong. Kris Killed Asriel - feels like Omori all over again. Yeah i don't think so. To much wouldn't add up if that were the case. Could Toby write it so that twist would feel satisfying? Yeah i think so. Is he going to? I really doubt it Dess in Code - i like this one a lot. Spamton specifically quotes a piece of this code so it seems too be more important than a cool easter egg, and Dess feels really important. Chess Theory - love this theory. Makes theories about future bosses fun to think about Very fun video! I love hearing people talk about Deltarune

[@guiltyflygon]

You brought up some good stuff! Just a couple things to add on: Yeah, someone else brought up that the Ralsei speech is quiet vague when it comes to the Roaring's trigger, I just assumed it had to be three fountains because he responded so harshly to Berdly attempting to create a third and the three depicted in the cutscene. That said, someone pointed out that perhaps it is the act of creating a dark fountain within a dark fountain that Ralsei thinks will cause the Roaring (which does kind of line up with the line "the darkners will be crushed by the darkness") and of course that feeds into the classic Gaster "darker yet darker." I do think it has to be one of the two because Ralsei definitely implies that Berdly creating that fountain would have caused the Roaring. An arc about Kris's identity driven by Ralsei coming into his own could be really cool, and I do think it's more likely than we may think because Kris is clearly more than just a self-insert like Frisk. If Sans does come from Deltarune then Papyrus either has amnesia, (as Sans is explicitly stated to be the only one who remembers "alternate timelines" in Undertale. It's meant for reloading your save but could apply here too) or he's just Undertale Papyrus with Deltarune Sans. I agree Papyrus could never keep that big of a secret lol. I never thought about Noelle potentially being the knight without even knowing it. That's very interesting. I always assumed that the red eyes were a result of having the red soul... Though I guess that really has no evidence to it lol. I agree that Kris looks more like Frisk but what I was trying to imply is that Kris is taking the place of Chara. Like, being a part of the Dreemurr family, being siblings with Asriel, etc. They dress like Chara because Toriel and Asgore raised Kris the same as Chara. Basically, I'm just trying to say that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Chara to be in this world because we have Kris, if they did show up they would be a totally different person! Yeah, Ralsei definitely feels like a repressive character who struggles when things are difficult. I also definitely don't think he's evil. Either he's trying to get Kris to quiet down to placate the player or he's just not very good at this like you said lol. I do think that fits because Susie is very much of the opposite of that and the two are positioned as foils a lot.

[@rafsandomierz5313]

Gaster was scattered across time and space, so him sending note after performing the experiment that made him godlike to a point where directly speaking to him or through phone could lead to insanity, (Gaster is more associated with phones) wouldn't make sense, what has more sense in my opinion is that the note was made before the final experiment was conducted and when Gaster became godlike entity the note became corrupted for some reason. Noelle is more connected to Angel than the Knight, there is more connections to that in Snowgrave route by Spamton when he gives us a thorn ring while in the dumpster and her attire in the Dark world and also spells that are kind of snow like. And you know she is the only one who floats in Air with light glowing eyes while spell casting snowgrave.

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

If Chapter 3 boss is Toriel's TV and Toriel is a teacher, she could have brought it in for her students to watch a movie and then when she was done she left in the old classroom making King, Queen, and Chapter 3 boss related.

[@krisspychissp]

5:22 I personally believe that Kris simply can’t survive without a soul for very long, but can survive a bit, because we have strong evidence you can survive without a soul for a while as seen with asriel at the end of true pacifist, but are soon going to die. I think this is why kris acts like a zombie when the soul is removed. So in the normal route kris slashes the tires so toriel will call the police and then makes the dark fountain to 1. Alert police 2. Connect more with susie. But in snowgrave kris wants there to be a cop or adult incase we try any funny buisness. They believe that we will try and that there will be no one there we can influence like noelle. They want us to be caught in snowgrave. And they put the soul back in because they can’t live without it. Plus, Ralsei never said how many fountains end up causing the roaring, and I can see Kris doing this because they seem like a rash type of kid.

[@mochalavender9398]

16:50 Idea; what if Gerson Boom accidentally created his first dark fountain when, as he was falling asleep while writing, his pen slipped from his hand, landing in such a way so to create a dark fountain. He returns to the light world somehow, and sees that he must've been asleep, believing everything to be a dream. Crackpot? Probably, I thought of it in the span of 5 seconds.

[@marsgreekgod]

what I thought opening a dark fountian in a dark fountain was sure roaring, and the amount open in the world was higher

[@GodChaos333]

This was pretty enjoyable. My top 3 would be 1. Jaru's because I love suffering (I find them fun) 2. Dess is in the code and we can save her by doing glitchy stuff, and 3. Chess theory sounds like a neat concept. I seen the full definitive version of his video and the scenario sounds so interesting. As for the one you went over I actively hate. Is the 3 entities. Here is a long list of why it's bad on a story telling level. It's sloppy introducing so many entities in one person. It massively hurts Kris as a character. People have flaws and as a child sorta outcast. It is believable he can be a trouble maker. With a third entity it blurs everything we knew about Kris and gives a excuse for anything bad he ever done. What is Kris actions? What is the other entity actions? When did it take over? Has Kris acted himself at all? It makes Kris feel less important and its all about the third entity now, be it chara or whoever. Lastly it hurts the theme of control with the player. It feel more personal having Kris and us fight for control. This theme of player and Kris being nor the same hits so hard. But introducing a third makes all of this weaker.

[@mosesgurule5145]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Noelle could make a dark fountain with a pencil. It seems from the way Queen describes it that you can't just touch the floor with a blade and make a Dark Fountain. You have to stab the earth, or rather the floor. A magical Halbert could probably easily stab the concrete Berdly was standing on at the time. Kris' knife probably can pierce the rug and wooden floor of his house, but if Noelle tried it with a pencil, it would just snap the pencil in half and wouldn't actually pierce the floor. She would need to use an actual blade, and even then, based on how Berdly and Kris do it, you have to aggressively stab the floor. It's not enough to just kinda lightly pierce the floor, and I feel like Berdly would've noticed if Noelle got up and plunged a blade into the floor as hard as she could. If not that, he definitely would've noticed the smoke that comes from making one of them. In total, I heavily doubt it would be Noelle, but I also feel like either of the Holidays not named Rudy or Noelle are options. Yes, I think Dess is an option. Especially I'd we find that she is in the Void or something and can just pop in wherever she wants. It's neshe, but it's an option in my belief.

[@guiltyflygon]

That's fair. I suppose there's the chance that Berdly was actually asleep when she got there but he'd probably still say something about that... Maybe? I always saw the stabbing the floor as piercing the other dimension using determination rather than actually requiring physical stabbing of the ground in addition to the former, though I suppose we don't really know, Not like we've seen any marks lol.

[@mosesgurule5145]

@guiltyflygon There's the possibility that sealing the fountain seals the whole in the ground. I suppose it is far-fetched, though. But we can test this come Chapter 3, since we see Kris stab the earth. If we get out of the dark world and see a hole in Toriel's rug, then no, stabbing the earth isn't required. But if there's no hole, then yes, sealing the dark fountain seals the whole in the ground, which probably excludes Noelle from being the knight...probably...

[@Watcher-pt6uq]

A theory I have is that later soul modes for the secret bosses is going to match with the reverse order of souls in the Flowey fight. Red came first with Jevel, then it was yellow with Spamtom, so the third should be green for whoever is in chapter 3.

[@doommustard8818]

Chess theorists: we have two data points, if we connect them with this specific curve. Everyone else: wait why that curve and not a line Chess theorist: shhhhhh! I'm writing fan fict--- I mean a well thought out theory. Connect them with this curve and extend it, we get incoherent nonsense. Everyone else: wouldn't a coherent story be better? Chess theorists: you don't understand true art.

[@cyborgboy3070]

"Monsters can't use magic in the light world" The kris' search history room in chapter 2 when the fun gang is captured by Queen confirms they can as kris searched up "How to use fire magic" or something along those lines which very clearly states that monsters can use magic. Besides that Kris DOESN'T have magic at all even in the dark world, YET Susie DOES confirming that the dark world does show the strengths of one's who CAN use magic relative to those who CAN'T this is why Kris' mega attack in snowgrave is just him attacking twice instead of say a HUGE slice or something.

[@guiltyflygon]

Kris's search term was just "how to do magic" not fire magic specifically, which is important because the result in Queen's room for them was a book of magic tricks... Not a tutorial on how to actually do magic. If magic was a thing that existed then why would Queen choose to represent that search that way? We know Kris is a trickster, the idea of them idly searching up how to do magic tricks isn't really odd, especially when their other search terms are so mundane. (piano tutorial, college summer break, etc.) Also, Noelle mentions in the hospital wishing she knew magic in real life while playing Dragon Blazers with her dad, implying that magic isn't something she could learn to help him. After all, it's Noelle, if she could help her dad survive by studying magic I'm pretty sure she would. There's also some other circumstantial evidence that monster's don't do magic in the light world such as Toriel having to use her stove in this universe whereas she never did in Undertale, and the concept of a hospital even being a thing for monsters. If they have healing magic then why even have a hospital with machinery? It seems the dark world is able to bring out the strengths of everyone in it. Inanimate objects become animate darkners, Monsters can do magic, and humans seem to be able to save/use whatever Kris's soul shine powers are to power up their allies. None of those people can do those things in the light world as far as we are aware at the moment. Of course, it's possible that monsters can use magic in the light world still and it's just a forgotten area of study in the modern day... But again, there's no evidence of it.

[@blackbloom8552]

Since you appeared a bit confused about how chess theory apply to the knight, here how i would say the piece quirks apply to the in-game character *The knight is the only piece that leap over the pawns, and therefore the only piece that can move before them at the start of the game. *The knight has an unusual movement pattern that makes it particularly difficult to predict and pin down. *the knight is the only piece which movements cannot be copied by the queen, and queen in deltarune specifically wanted to make noelle into a knight. overall through i agree that chapter 3 is going to be where we can learn for sure wether that theory was accurate or just a few lucky coincidences.

[@themar.i.per3374]

maybe nowell and berdly did walk into the dark world like kris and susie did and them sleeping in the desk could just be a little plothole. the body hiding could also imply that kris wants to hide berdly's corpse. or both the vessel and kris could be the knight. we dont need to have a single knight.

[@themar.i.per3374]

berdly was just stupid and he maybe thought that the lights are out

[@user-of6lz2fi5g]

The “kris killed asriel” is just the plot of omori if you want that just play omori I hope it doesn’t go in that direction

[@bauschaum2158]

One thing people mention about chess theory is the fact that there are 2 bishops, rooks and knights in chess meaning there will be 2 of each. While I find that already hard to believe, this would also mean, that there will be 8 Bosses in chapter 6 as there are 8 pawns in chess which sounds weird... Also, if the white pawns are the lightners and the black pawns the secret bosses and maybe some other darkners, then who are the white pieces, then being the adults of the town sounds plausible but not if you look at the order which they are introduced. What I'm saying is, in the end chess theory depends a lot on how much of chess actually is in Deltarune.

[@guiltyflygon]

I'm pretty sure that within chess theory the black pawns are the secret bosses and the white pawns are the students/playable characters (we don't know how many of the students are going to be playable yet obviously but there's 9 students... Minus Temmie for being a reference character and you get 8) as they are the ones who seems to be able to "make decisions" aka "promote." Fighting a pawn in chapter 6 is why a lot of people think we'll be fighting the vessel or something. Maybe a "pawn" that "promoted." We do obviously have a King and a Queen in the light world in Asgore and Toriel, Undyne is kind of a Knight, Alvin is definitely a Bishop... Depending on how Mike/Tenna acts in chapter 3 we should be able to better understand what being a "rook" means. Maybe being stable, or being stuck in your rigid ways. Could make Alphys a Rook... It's quite hard to say. Chapter 3 is probably going to be the make or break for chess theory though either way.

[@bauschaum2158]

@@guiltyflygon that makes more sense, the way I heard it was that, since Monster Kid and that other Bird whose name i dont know, dont have portraits they are not pawns either, instead it would be ralsei and the vessel which also dosent make sense since ralsei is a darkner. I like chess theory, I just think it can get confusing if you look into it too much. Like for example: if Asgore is the white King, why did get introduced after Toriel who is obviously the Queen. Also if Alvin is a bishop, that means he isnt the knight unless you can be 2 pieces at once. Technically, if you did differenciate between white and black pieces, that would mean, that the knight is a darkner, which is see as highly unlikely.

[@bauschaum2158]

Assuming Noelle is the knight, she was not the one who corrupted Jevil, but could have been the one on the phone with Spamton. I remember some KZbin comment on another theory saying, that 90s Internet was based on phone lines so the "person on the phone" might not have actually talked to Spamton on a phone, it's just seems that way from Spamtons perspective. Technically she could have corrupted Jevil as well, but that happened before the dark fountain in the abandoned classroom was a thing, seeing as the three kings locked Spamton away. Actually, as I'm writing this, Noelle seems more and more plausible, as she might use the fountains to look for Dess, kind of like in the Miss Holiday knight theory. She also has the connection with the occult as we know from Catti.

[@bauschaum2158]

In addition, which I just realised, "banishing the Angel's heaven" could just refer to stopping(banishing) the depths/roaring. Thus we could assume that Noelle is the angel seeing as she has all that angel symbolism.

[@guiltyflygon]

I never thought about that connection with old internet lines and phones. That's very interesting! I think Noelle seems likely at the moment mostly because she's the character we know the most about lol. But it's still very plausible.

[@LiMe251]

My opinion on Kris's thought process: The world was fine with the cyber city and the card kingdom, so Kris's house dark world shouldn't put the world at stake

[@Saiiryn]

The player is one the entities, I would consider it canon as it literally says in the snow grave route (Kris screams for Noelle) it then says (YOU whisper Noelle's name) durning the spamton fight

[@guiltyflygon]

I tend to agree but if the player is taking on the role of this other entity in a similar sense to Chara in Undertale things get complicated again lol.

[@michaelvanmeter6984]

I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks chess theory is flawed.

[@thefartingtwunk]

when does ralsei mention three dark fountains being what causes the roaring? I thought there was some implication that a dark fountain opening within a dark world is what did that.

[@guiltyflygon]

I went back and looked at the cutscene and yeah, it's far more implication that three fountains is the tipping point then I remembered (there's three fountains in the visual and Berdly's fountain would be the third given Queen's and Ralsei's were still open) but there isn't anything to suggest that a dark fountain being made inside a dark fountain would cause the Roaring, at least not in the cutscene. I think that idea comes from applying "darker yet darker" to the Roaring? I think I may have watched a theory video about that once lol

[@chihuahuarocks9664]

Oh my god, someone else who doesn't believe Toriel's an alcoholic?! Yes!!! I never understood why people thought this when she clearly isn't dealing with the typical consequences of someone who is an alcoholic (i.e. struggling to maintain a job, is constantly drunk or hungover, etc.), and it's obvious that she just uses drinking as an (unhealthy) coping mechanism while doing her best to take care of Kris and move on with her life. I doubt Kris would have thought to bring Toriel into a dark world if they felt like she wasn't someone responsible, y'know?

[@guiltyflygon]

I wouldn't say that it's always possible to visually know when someone is struggling with addiction, (there is such a thing as high functioning alcoholics after all) but that also goes the other way with people diagnosing Toriel based almost entirely on second-hand accounts from distant former acquaintances. I think it's mostly a case of people taking a joke too seriously. Like, Toriel being a well-mannered, kind of uptight, mother with a past of wild partying is a classic trope. It's not too weird in the context of what Rudy said. The alarm clock dialogue is even more fraught as evidence considering it never actually released and it refers the the Undertale timeline where Toriel has a way more intense burden to deal with. Toriel coping with her feelings poorly is kind of a given, especially in Undertale, but I don't think she's an alcoholic and I definitely don't think she's being abusive or neglectful of Kris. Their relationship right now feels more grafted onto classic teenage identity issues/the desire to get out from under one's parents rather than anything more serious.

[@chihuahuarocks9664]

@@guiltyflygon Oh geeze, I should clarify I am NOT a hardcore fan of DT or UT since I like watching stuff surrounding it from a distance (though I've watched playthroughs and theories to kill time). But also, you are very right! There are many ways that addiction can manifest in people! Some people are VERY visibly struggling, while others show very subtle signs or none at all. I guess what I mean by visible symptoms too is how Toriel is presented in DT and how others regard her. The story of DT doesn't really provide hints or clues to Toriel being an alcoholic through character dialogue or object prompts, etc. Like, people can theorize this, but it doesn't seem like Toby intended for it to be a thing. Does that make any sense? Either way, I wholeheartedly agree with you here! Toriel has her priorities and even if she and Kris have a somewhat shaky relationship, she very much loves her child and Kris obviously loves her too. Although, I have unfortunately seen people take these kinds of theories (including the Toriel is homophobic theory) to criticize her character and even treat it as a canonical read on her character. That's why I was happy to see a video that defended her LOL. Thanks for the reply!

[@krisspychissp]

Is gaster wasn’t directly involved in the story in *some way* that’d be such a missed opportunity and I for one would be very disappointed that toby would’ve missed the chance to have years build up for one of the most climatic antagonists ever

[@guiltyflygon]

I mean, he could still be a big side boss/a payoff to the secret bosses story while not being the big bad/involved in the main story. Still, I think it's pretty obvious he'll be involved in some way, big or small, at this point it's just hard to discern how.

[@krisspychissp]

@@guiltyflygon fair, yeah, I just feel there’s all this buildup to gaster and would be pretty disappointed if it didn’t get some sorta payoff

[@SSL_2004]

I disagree with the Gaster driving Jevil and Spamton insane part, I think it's fairly evident that that's what happened. Your theory with Gerson is interesting and I definitely think that Gerson, being a writer, and with his books being inspired by these "dreams", might have something to do with the dark worlds. However I seriously fail to see how any of that connects to Jevil or Spamton. I think it will serve as an underlying plot point for Alvin, who I'm 75% sure is the Knight, but your argument about the one the secret bosses talked to is already flimsy in my opinion, because it's based on the speculation that the noise involves breaching worlds, which while a reasonable idea, is still entirely speculation. All we REALLY know about that sound is that it's somehow connected to Gaster. Whether it's something he emits, something involving potential Dark World experiments that he was doing, or anything else, we don't know, we just know it's correlated with him somehow. Not to mention that you didn't really explain why Gerson would do any of that. Character personalities remain fairly intact between Deltarune and Undertale. I guess if you stretch it you can say that he was a shopkeeper in UT, and therefore that's how he knew how to get Spamton business, but in terms of personality he was a little kooky but well-meaning. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would break the minds of people. Assuming it was some sort of breach of worlds noise, and Spamton was talking to a Lightner, how would he even communicate with them on the phone in the first place if anytime you try to call outside of Dark World, you can't, and just get that noise. I think that the text, correlating with the entry 17 noise, was very deliberately placed there TO make you connect it with Gaster. Not to mention you completely neglected to touch on Jevil. Jevil's connection to Gaster is just as clear, with Seam saying that ever since he spoke to that "strange someone" and started saying things that didn't completely make sense, but didn't completely not make sense, and that Seam's view of the world ever sense has gotten "Darker, Yet Darker." It really doesn't get much more explicit than that. But beyond that, if it was a Lightner, well then there's not much mystery, so what "broke their minds". Literally everyone in the Dark Worlds knows what Lightners are. All of them know their purpose. They all know that they were created to serve them, and seemingly, at least some of them, are even aware of their pseudo fictional nature. With both Ralsei and Queen directly calling out the real world equivalents of their Dark Worlds. The person who spoke to Jevil (and Spamton), can't have just been telling the darkners that their world is a game. They know that. It had to have been a level of knowledge transcending even the Light and Dark. A meta revelation about their own reality.

[@guiltyflygon]

What "broke their minds" is learning that their world is just a game. This much is made clear by Jevil. Jevil used this knowledge to free himself from the consequences of his actions, while Spamton used it to "game the system" and get rich quick. However, we don't know how meta that knowledge gets. Did this strange someone tell them that they are characters in a game called Deltarune? Or just that the Dark Worlds aren't real? Spamton's lines about it still being dark after getting the Neo body seem to imply the latter, that Spamton knew there was something more than the dark worlds, but after attaining a shadow crystal and seeing into the "light" he can see that the next world up is nothing more than another fascimile of reality. Gerson is completely capable of doing that in a well meaning way, yet still driving them mad. At the same time, just because Jevil's view is described as getting "darker, yet darker" doesn't mean that the person who interacted with him was 100% Gaster. It could instead be an allusion to how Gaster too realized his world was just a game, thus both of their viewpoints reached the same dark conclusion. The reason I picked Gerson of all people is that there's a bench in the graveyard with a quote from him about dreaming saying some of his best ideas came to him in dreams. While this could just be a nice platitude, it could also imply he once explored Dark Worlds (which are repeatedly likened to dreams) without realizing what they were. This would also explain why he didn't consider the consequences of telling Jevil or Spamton about their place in the world, and why the Dark Worlds seem to have some kind of connected history. It would also inform why Alvin, a character we both are leaning towards probably being the Knight, would know how to make Dark Fountains in the first place. Is the person who influenced Jevil and Spamton Gaster? Yeah, probably. But I think it's fun to point out that there's still more to consider and the leading theories aren't totally set in stone yet.

[@SSL_2004]

@@guiltyflygon Very good points here, but In regards to the tier list itself, I think the Gaster theory more so deserves to be in "reasonable enough" than "makes sense but with flaws", because they're really aren't any flaws with the Gaster interpretation, there are just other potential interpretations that could make sense too. That's pedantic though. In regards to the knowledge Spamton and Jevil received, I still don't really think it can just be that the Dark Worlds are "fake," because as I already mentioned, Darkners seemed to be quite aware of the nature of their reality. At the _very_ least higher profile ones like the monarchs And Ralsei, who _aren't_ insane. Queen straight up knows how dark fountains are created, and the very fact that hers is contained to the library in the Light World. Ralsei also specifically tells Kris to pick up all the stuff in the abandoned classroom, not only showcasing knowledge of the layout of a Light World building, but the fact that the Darkners are objects in the Light World. With that in mind I feel like whatever they were told had to be bigger than that. Something that upset their perception about both the Dark and the Light World. Because even if they didn't know about the nature of Dark Fountains "giving life" to objects prior, I don't see how that would drive them mad when Queen handles that knowledge fine. Not to mention that, and this is EXTREMELY pedantic I'm aware, but Jevil doesn't seem to believe that we are "free" like him. If the "freedom" that he received was due to a Lightner informing him about the nature of his reality being a creation born of a Lightner's will, why would he then see two Lightners as trapped, when they're residents of the higher reality that he received his freedom from. He must know something that we don't, that results in him viewing himself as more free. The freedom he's talking about must go beyond simply the Light World. As for Gerson, I'm not _100%_ convinced he has anything to do with the Dark Worlds, but I do think there's some very strong evidence for it. It's very possible that he created Dark Worlds either intentionally, or subconsciously in order to get inspiration for his books. If it was the former then that would explain where Alvin got the information about the Dark Worlds. In general I think Gerson being the inspiration for Alvin to become the Knight has a lot of the same perks as Oberon Smog Knight, WITHOUT the baggage of being entirely centered around a made-up fanfiction character 💀, but I digress. It's just that well Gerson has strong potential ties to the Dark World, that does not necessarily give him ties to Spamton and Jevil, and I still think Gaster has a more solid foundation. It's a very interesting concept though.

[@sergame567]

5:42 did i missed something or when did ralsei said that? I replayed game around 4-5 times and i never heard that, was this in spamton sweepstakes or something like that?

[@guiltyflygon]

It's more of an implication. Ralsei talks about the Roaring after Berdly is about to create a 3rd dark fountain and the visuals during his explanation show three Titans who are stated to be "born from the fountains." I totally thought this was the common interpretation but many people have commented their own ideas so I was wrong on that. We'll have to see how it shakes out.

[@sergame567]

@@guiltyflygon that makes sense but maybe ralsei was just warning them that creating more fountains without sealing them at some point will cause roaring but he doesnt certainly knows how many fountains roaring requires. i dont think he would be so chill when 2 out of 3 fountains already created and panic only when 3rd is about to be created

[@UnkownUnkown01]

This doesn't have a lot to do with the video, but I wanted to know something, has anyone ever thought what Gaster's experiment might be? Well, I've got a theory about that, I might sound foolish but I'm pretty sure that Gaster's experiment was Deltarune, like just the whole thing. Toby fox says Deltarune is an alternate universe, right? Well, this was created by Gaster. It's been a while since I've been on the Deltarune fandom so I don't remember a lot of stuff since I've thought a lot about this before and I swear it made sense back then and I had a lot more proof to support this. But basically, if I'm right, we will see the true Gaster in Deltarune, why? Well, he fell in his creation, which is Deltarune, so at some point we'll see him if I'm right about this. But I'll try to look further in this. Please y'all let me know if this has been thought of before.

[@tobysinbad]

Papyrus is the Knight, Gerson and Alvin are very important, Toriel’s going to be homophobic bc of her religious anti sex stuff Asriel and Dess were going to run away together before her disappearance

[@lucyread]

Wow, a eltarune!!

[@randomtree7295]

I don't like the third entity theory because it relies on a character we don't know and overcomplicates things I much prefer the "ralsie and Kris got a plan" theory cause, while yes Kris doesn't seem to like ralsie, the idea one: there is something big enough, bad enough, that would get Kris to not only cooperate with ralsie in their few moments of freedom but also make them make a dark fountain even in a snowgrave route I just think it has a lot of potential as a story plot point

[@gianni50725]

Overcomplicates things compared to an unknown 4D chess plan by Kris that somehow justifies opening a dark world? I'd say it's about equally likely that there's an unknown third entity. To me if there was a third entity it makes sense as a stand-in for the "your choices don't matter" theming of the game. That's the one aspect of the game that we don't have any control over regardless of what we pick while the soul is inside of Kris. It could be a meta representation of "canon events" that need to happen in order for the story to progress, or the strings that are controlling the fate of Kris, Ralsei, Noelle, and Susie. I find that more interesting than the idea that Kris hates the player rather than merely being confused or annoyed or frightened (snowgrave) by their presence. It would also explain why Snowgrave as a route even exists (as a potential route of freedom for Kris and ourselves -- in this context it makes way more sense why we would go out of our way to try and subvert fate with the little freedom we have and why Spamton thinks _Kris_ is doing all this to free themselves).

[@gaminganimators7000]

I genuinely hate the third entity theory, it just doesn't make any sense storywise.

[@krisspychissp]

22:04 I think the whole idea is like that since kris thought they were a monster not a human at this time the idea is that the headband represented what kris wanted to be like basically their ideal self image which probably would have been a lot like their great older brother that everyone in town loved- asriel. The headband was discarded after kris realized they weren’t a monster but instead a human

[@krisspychissp]

Okay but we can agree that Noelle being the angel as like a villain character at the emd would be sick, right?

[@Firedgoose69]

No I love Noelle

[@riflezen6049]

A few theories I believe in: -The Knight is its own entity, and is not any pre-existing Lightner or Darkner (no, I'm not an Oberon Smog believer. Or a fan of JaruJaruJ in general). -Kris will gradually become more and more accepting of the Player, and begin to co-operate with them... On the Main Route, anyway. A battle against Kris doesn't appeal to me very much. -Kris will also become less and less scared of encountering the Secret Bosses as time goes on, and may even begin to relate to some of them because of their desires to be "free". -Ralsei is trying specifically to appease the Player, and is prioritizing our enjoyment of the adventure over Kris's. He might even have a crush on us, which would be REALLY concerning.

[@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox]

Kris isn't scared of any of the secret bosses, what are you talking about? They go along with Spamtons nonsense in the main route, even going so far as to honor his request for privacy. They go down into the basement alone twice despite knowing the danger. The only thing I can sort of see as evidence towards that is how Kris yells 'no' if you let them which may denote fear? But I've always interpreted that as them realizing that Spamton died once he cut his strings and Kris is scared that's going to happen to them too, not that we was scared of Spamton himself, which in a way means Kris already related to him. And Kris doesn't seem scared or even mildly put off by Jevil in the slightest. Also I don't think Kris will ever 'like' or 'accept' people puppeteering their body like a twisted marionette. At best the Weird Route might be foreshadowing for what the SOUL will ultimately do to Kris, completely supersede their original personality and turn them into a submissive shell of what they once were, at least on the Weird Route. Maybe on the Main Route Kris will come to realize that without us (the SOUL) they'd probably have died a long time ago so they might reluctantly go along with it? But I highly doubt they'd ever stop rebelling entirely. Personally however I only see Kris rebelling more and more as time goes on, perhaps eventually kicking out the SOUL temporarily so we control someone else in the interim, maybe Noelle, maybe the Vessel, I don't know but I personally think the protagonist rejecting the call to action in the most direct way possible by snuffing the players influence entirely could make for some compelling drama. Especially if in the process of rebelling Kris (or maybe the player) has a falling out with the other party members.

[@riflezen6049]

@@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox My issue with Player vs. Kris on the Mormal Route is that... What message is it supposed to convey narratively? UnderTale, through the RESET and SPARE mechanics, said "be a good person, because you won't be able to escape the consequences if you aren't." What would be the message here? "Don’t puppeteer someone else's body?" "Don’t play video games because you're stealing the protagonist's autonomy?" I would much prefer to see Kris and the Player teaming up on some level. Yes, Kris has every right to hate the Player at the moment, but the Player has also done wonderful things for them. They've made countless new friends, they've survived terrifying situations, and they've gone on a wonderful adventure, all thanks to the Player. ...What would even happen after the Player and Kris fight? There's still the Roaring and the Knight to worry about. Also, you're right about the "Kris being scared of the Secret Bosses" thing. But to be fair, wouldn't YOU be freaked out if you saw a puppet crawl out of a dumpster and ask if you're [All Alone On A Late Night?]

[@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox]

@@riflezen6049 would I be freaked out? Sure, but I am not Kris. Kris has clearly seen some shit if their history with the bunker is anything to go off and already fought with a psychotic clown trying to stab them with a knife and tyranical spade thing who nearly killed Kris. I don't think an over enthusiastic salesmen would phase them much. As for what the point of what Kris vs the Player would 'teach' on the normal route.. we don't know what's going to happen in future chapters so we really don't have enough information. But were I to hazard a guess it isn't a lesson for us, since we already know that the player and Kris are seperate entities and can act as such. But rather a lesson for the casual player who hasn't picked up on that yet and makes Kris do some very out of character things that'd make Kris very uncomfortable (like repeatedly hug Ralsei.) If there wasn't going to be an eventual conflict between Kris and the Player then these options would simply not be presented to us. Toby is clearly building up to a Kris vs Player conflict (maybe to soften the blow it'll be revealed that we're not directly controlling Kris but rather controlling the entity controlling Kris) and maybe they have a falling out for a while before eventually agreeing that they have bigger fish to fry and team up. But I don't think Kris will ever like having their life influenced like that, like sure we made them some friends they seem to legitimately enjoy (like Susie) but also are forcing them to interact and be close to Ralsei who Kris, really doesn't like if Tea theory is anything to go off of and force them to risk their life in all these dark worlds repeatedly (although with the ending of chapter 2 who really knows.) I personally think Player vs Kris will be a corner stone of both routes. For the weird route it'll be the player trying to get Kris to obey, and for the main route it'll be trying to convince them to begrudgingly work with you, but that isn't the same thing as acceptance.

[@riflezen6049]

@@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox Ralsei Tea heals Kris for 60, Noelle Tea heals Kris for 70. The idea that Kris hates being around Ralsei is HIGHLY unlikely, unless you want to say Kris also hates Noelle. And, I didn't say that befriending Kris would be easy. In UnderTale, Undyne has every right to want to kill Frisk- Her people are trapped in a crapped home that is slowly growing more and more overpopulated, and here comes a human who's turned her best friend (Papyrus) against her, and if they die, then everyone can finally go free and take revenge on those who wronged them. Yet, Frisk befriends her anyway, by some miracle. If we can somehow do that, I think there's at least a chance we can buddy up with Kris on *some* level.

[@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox]

@@riflezen6049 since when did: "Kris doesn't like him very much" become equivalent to "Kris hates Ralsei with their entire heart" Noelle Tea heals Ralsei for 50, so that means that 50 is more the likely absolute neutrality so 60 is only slightly above average. Think about it like this: Kris and Noelle are two estranged childhood friends who drifted apart after their families stopped associating with eachother. The most likely event that spurred the falling out between the Holidays and Dreamurrs was the disappearance of Dess who we know thanks to the spelling bee and the silhouette casted by Noelle in the December room was a long time ago, probably in elementary. And now Kris and Noelle are more than likely in early high school, late middle school at the latest. And even after all that time Kris still likes Noelle more Ralsei. Kris doesn't like Ralsei, no two ways about it. Kris cares more about Ralsei than a stranger, but given that Kris already seems to consider Susie (someone who threatened to kill them the previous day) a close friend, and Ralsei sits at half that paints a very bleak picture for their relationship as things stand.

[@shring727]

I don't think that it's possible for kris being chara just because of the time line issues, how can alphys and chara be in the same time?

[@guiltyflygon]

It sort of depends whether Deltarune is a mishmash of the Undertale timeline or not. For example, Gerson is dead in Deltarune but very alive in Undertale and Monster Kid has become Monster Teen. So, ok, were in the future but it still lines up with the Undertale timeline, right? Well, no. Asriel is only in college when, if he was born at the same time as in the Undertale timeline, he should be much much older. Similarly, Toriel and Asgore were locked in time when Asriel died and no longer aged in Undertale, so they should be really old. After all, Asgore and Gerson both fought in the monster and human war, so they should be within 20 years of each other or so at least if Gerson was somewhat spry when fighting in the war. So yeah, it seems like there's plenty of wiggle-room for Chara to possibly be inserted into this time frame like it seems the rest of the Dreemurrs have been... But I'm not sure I'm convinced either way haha.

[@shring727]

right thanks for clarifying it is interesting to think about @@guiltyflygon

[@dorukbozdag2716]

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