Taking Another Look At Determination In Deltarune (BECAUSE OF THIS DANG BOOK)

[@i010001]

I feel like the "three save slot" thing is just because, like... Okay, when you fight Flowey in Undertale, he pulls all the human souls and has multiple save states. But then when you free the souls, he loses access to them and you win. In Undertale, you yourself (playing as Frisk) has a single save state Then in Deltarune, we seem to begin with one save slot. We don't get the option to choose which slot we use, and have limited opportunities to switch. But then starting at the end of chapter 1, it's all revealed properly and from Chapter 2 onward we have access to all three save slots at once. ...So, if we act under the assumption that we - the player - have the determination to save and load. Then the common denominator here is that we have the same number of save slots as we have characters we control. When we control one, we have one. When we have a party of three, we have three. When Flowey has control of 7, he gets 7 save slots (0 to 6.) Maybe at some point Noelle will join permanently and we'll get Save Slot 4. I don't think the three save files have anything to do with Kris, as such. It has to do with us, right? It's probably us shining on the party and allowing them to save and load in some way

[@guiltyflygon]

That's probably the most sensible explanation I've heard so far!

[@AlphaPizzadog]

Noelle is said to be in a trance within the Snowgrave route. This means she is no longer fully conscious of her current situation, allowing her to be emotionally distant when fighting. This corresponds with the definition of LV in undertale, which is said to be "a way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt. The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others."

[@chucknorris2913]

You're not copying Jaru, no one can the guys insane (in the best way) You're just you.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

Our control over the SOUL is what makes it red. Meaning, that its red because we are watching (like a recording icon)

[@TheSkyGuy77]

It can also mean Gaster is watching everything through the SOUL too...

[@minestar2247]

@@TheSkyGuy77 so gaster is what makes the soul red?

[@TheSkyGuy77]

@@minestar2247 Eh maybe idk

[@SSL_2004]

Chara's SOUL was red so no

[@CalamitasCalliope]

I LOVE that Undyne conspiracy theory. She literally says that she feels everyone's hearts beating as one, oh my God

[@guiltyflygon]

It does paint a crazy picture of how strong Asgore could have been if he was willing to fight too 🫣

[@duckling3615]

@@guiltyflygon I think if Asgore was willing to fight he would trash us way better than Sans did.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

The PLAYER is effectively a god over the worlds we explore (in role play games). The fact we gift our power to a player character kinda means that we might be the DR Angel...

[@technicallygood4620]

Determination has always been a triple-entandre. It is, at its core, the ability to "determine" the terms of the game, it's not just used for loading and saving. You can use it to revert time, sure, but you can also use it to refuse to die, increase the damage you deal, decrease the damage you take, heal, and even alter reality to some extent, like making the ACT button the SAVE button, create dark fountains, and destroy/remake worlds, and most interesting is Undyne the Undying. She can't contain Determination in such quantities, and in the neutral run it kills if she's brought too close to death. If she gets Determined enough, however, she can just go beyond not being able to contain Determination. I think it would be reasonable to theorize that Determination is what turns a monster with 7 human souls into an all-powerful deity. Determination is also of course De-termination, but it's also the face value determination, the emotion seems to be linked to the power on some level. That's part of why I think residual Determination works, it's based not just feeling and undying substance, but the ability to alter reality. Maybe there's only so far Kris can carry that, but if we assume Undyne just got so determined that she could ignore not being able to handle Determination, it's not unreasonable that a very Determined Kris could do the reverse, use their Determination to keep kicking for a minute after being separated from their source of Determination.

[@Fragmentsinfractals488]

In fact, I think this part of the reason they have Our Soul. To leech Determination off of Us and do things in the Night. Things Determination requires.

[@GwainSagaFanChannel]

Do not worry bro I literally watched 6 DT videos about the latest newsletter just to hear different opinions and interpretations lmao

[@CalamitasCalliope]

Queen focusing the most on Noelle also brings up a strange connection since she seems to be the most easily influenced by the player, aside from Kris(sorta since they do successfully resist us). And if it is the influence from the player that drove Queen's selection then it makes me think about why she wasn't thrilled about the Weird Route. Maybe Noelle disobeying us and running away at the last second severed that connection? She can still hear the player after everyone returns to the Light World so the connection can't be completely cut off, but it is strange

[@BalrogQuote]

I mean, I feel an important aspect regarding Kris' own determination is that, before we save over it, Kris had a save of their own. So like, before us, Kris must have had the highest amount of determination among anyone there.

[@guiltyflygon]

That's true. It's either that or you get a file at birth and can't load it unless you gain powers lol.

[@vikas_room]

@@guiltyflygon this seems like it's more likely, as kris's file seems to have never been used (its time is set to zero)

[@vikas_room]

i think all the points brought up for alternate determination theory are valid, but can also be transposed to determination not being a soul thing because, as toby puts it, "[Deltarune]'s a different world that might even have different rules." this'll wind up being me preaching aspects of wandydoodles' oblivion theory because i have one personality trait, but there seems to be a distinction between determination (something lightners have) and "light" or "power". deltarune's SAVE points don't bring up determintation but instead "light", Queen seems to observe that all lightners have determination, and while we never see it come to fruition, berdly DOES come fairly close to making a dark fountain, and honestly i think the only reason he isn't displayed among the other lightners is because of the rule of three :P anyways, by the logic deltarune is building up, determination and the red soul could easily be separate concepts without compromising the player's thematic connection to the game, because the idea distinguishing the player from the average lightner is "light", a new idea different from the world and logic of deltarune. it feels presumptuous to use evidence from undertale to justify or nullify theories for deltarune is what i'm trying to say. also, about something you brought up near the end of the video that just sounded strange: i don't think we can encounter someone with "equal" determination because, well, wouldn't that mean interacting with... another person? like, in real life? undertale (and presumably deltarune, if you subscribe to oblivion theory :V) acknowledge that the player is the highest entity involved with the game, because players of games ARE the most powerful. they have the most agency, aren't bound by code (mostly?), and are only superseded in "power" by the person making the game. while it'd be incredibly meta for the final boss to be toby or something, it's also impossible to actually carry out, because *there's nobody on the other end of a single-player game*. unless toby and the team pull something really strange off, the closest we get to interacting with him is that dog... a "shadow" of his influence. what was i saying? oh well

[@guiltyflygon]

I would argue that the devs of the game would have more power than the player simply because they are the ones that limit our freedom to choose within the game world, the person to be so is Gaster given that he seems to be the one that brought us to this world. In my mind that makes him on... at least a nearly comparable level to us. Though I think the part of the video you're talking about is the part where I was suggesting that if residual DT is true then we could end up fighting against a Kris that has a similar level of DT as us, which I think is a little less convoluted to understand. I don't really like using Undertale as a reference for Deltarune that much either, but unfortunately it's the only source of comparison to draw from when it comes to DT at this stage. When it comes to "light" I do think it's possible. I mean, the save points are clearly different. However, it's also possible that the "light inside your soul" ends up being DT anyways given that when it's used there's usually some flash of light accompanying it. The only exception is reloading a save but you have to "reach out to a light only you can see" to do that too. It's really all up in the air at this point of the story, we're all "taking stabs into the dark" so to speak lol, so I think anything is possible. These videos are just my thoughts on this very specific situation of Kris making a fountain without the soul.

[@CalamitasCalliope]

I wouldn't worry about anyone saying you're ripping off Jaru. More people talking about stuff is always good, and i personally like your style more than his(nothing wrong with him, just personal tastes) I'm liking Alternate DT more and more now.

[@superboyok_]

Good job on the Homestuck series, takes some persisentance to read the whole thing

[@CalamitasCalliope]

When i think about crazy theories and stuff, my mind always likes to imagine how it would work from a gameplay perspective. So I'm really thinking about how a theoretical Kris bossfight would work, and I've got an idea that would be pretty cool i think. For the sake of this, let's assume Residiual DT is true. Alternate DT could also work, but the details would be a bit off so ehhh, but we'll just go with Residual In this case, Kris would have the ability to Save and Load just like us. Let's say the fight triggers after we save(let's say we're waiting to go to what we think is the final boss. There's a savepoint, and Ralsei blocks the way forward and just says that we should save before moving on). As soon as the menu for saving closes, it goes into a cutscene where Kris rips us out and Ralsei helps them do something to make it so we can't get back in. This could be what the two of them were talking about and planning whenever we can't see. From there, we possess someone else. Maybe Gaster drops the vessel in as a literally God in the Machine, maybe Susie or Noelle is there and we possess one of them. Either way, the fight starts and Kris immediately saves using the residual DT they have from us. If we die in this fight, we load back to our forced save, and the fight immediately picks back up so we're completely trapped. For the fight mechanics, i think that Kris will use up some of their DT with each load they attempt, making this a sort of fight of attritution. Whenever they get knocked down, they automatically load the beginning of the fight to start a new phase. Each time they get knocked down and reset they lose some of their leftover DT and after a long enough fight they pass out. Digging into the details of the mechanics, i think that we would be fighting Ralsei and Kris together. Ralsei would focus on healing Kris to keep them from going down, and i think it would be cool if when we got booted from Kris we lost access to our inventory of healing items and they could use them instead. Or maybe not since that would be a bit brutal. I think our team could be a bit variable. If we do somehow get the vessel, it would be pretty easy to make a mimicked version of the Fun Gang. If Noelle is there I'm sure she could be pulled to our side, and i do think by the end of the game Susie would choose to side with Noelle if she had to pick between Kris and her. Though if we possess Noelle instead of using the vessel, i can see Susie turn on us instead to make it three on one. This would make a good fan game at least

[@GameJam230]

There's one interesting idea I have that could also allow multi-soul theory to make sense. What if we aren't always the one performing the saves? We already know that we aren't the only entity aware of this world at a meta level, thanks to the goner maker intro, so perhaps this person has access to some level of control over one of them. Also, we already know for a FACT that we aren't the only person who has saved in Deltarune. Kris had a file before we showed up too. Perhaps Kris is holding multiple souls that are fighting for control of their body, which is what we may be seeing at the ends of each chapter. This falls in line with the Omega Flowey fight where Flowey was able to access 6 save states at once, but by reaching out to the souls you were able to convince them to rebel. They are all separate conscious entities that can work with or against whatever they are contained in. As for why each of these souls are seemingly in alternate realities (thanks to the differences of objects in Asriel's junk drawer for some reason), who knows. I also think we may need to utilize our ability to copy save files at some point to access certain secrets. For example, what if there were 3 items, each of which could ONLY be obtained on one of these files? You'd have to get the first one, save, copy the save to the next slot, load the copy, get the next item, and so on for the third file. I think there's a lot of potential that Toby has opened up with this...

[@guiltyflygon]

The save file shenanigans are definitely a point of interest for the future yeah. There's almost no doubt there's going to be something that happens because of it. I think this explains the mechanics of how another being could be in control of Kris well, but I'm not sure it explains the three save files exactly. If we're one person and the goner entity is another, let's say Kris themselves is the third, then why can we access all three files? If we're outside of that equation and can access all the files then there needs to be three entities asides from us, creating the four entities issue I was talking about in the video. There is a possibility I thought of when reading your thoughts on the multiple alternate realities though. Maybe there is only one extra entity, "Goner Guy", and there's a different Goner Guy in each file's universe? Goner Guy for file A will be different from Goner Guy from file B, etc. That way it's just us, a Goner Guy, and Kris fighting for control, though that's still a bit convoluted for my tastes lol.

[@GameJam230]

@@guiltyflygon It could also be very well possible that saving in Deltarune is not directly a feature of the Determination at all. We know that prior to Chapter 1's completion, the file selection menu has the same theming and entity (likely Gaster) speaking to us as was from the goner maker. Given that this person seemingly set up a "connection" between their world and the player, it may be that the saving is rather a feature provided by the machine that forms that connection, not by the soul. After all, Undertale only ever specifies that the being with the most determination *in the underground* can save and load, but what about on the surface? What about an alternate universe with related but separate laws of physics? Then the question returns to exactly what "Determination" is and does in Deltarune. I think there may be an answer to this question that relies on some of the subtleties of translation, however. See, we all know that Determination is a pun for De-terminating youself as well as being able to determine your fate, but it's that latter one that seems more plausible when considering that the English pun really doesn't make as much sense in Japanese, and the particular version of Determination the translation commonly uses is the one that can also roughly translate to "decision". "Your choices don't matter", after all. But maybe possessing Determination is exactly what ALLOWS you to make choices in this world, and the save/load system should be regarded as a wholly separate thing in this game? This would imply that our introduction into the world of Deltarune may be intended to have us change the direction of the prophecy, which otherwise might be unavoidable by the people trapped within it.

[@cable_g0re]

I actually really like the theory that undyne is getting the determination in the geno route from the deceased monsters, its very anime of her. Im stealing it :]

[@reolives]

I broke my phone's screen about a week ago and have been pretty annoyed about it, so seeing the cracks in the thumbnail on my computer's screen made me sweat for a second. 😂

[@hades_head_empty]

7:35 honestly, i've always thought that the rusty bird cage is from regularly taking out their soul before the game. they might even have been building up their tolerance for a while. so, maybe, we're able to take control of their soul in the first place is because they disconnect it from their body so often. but then the question is, why have they been subjecting themself to this? the most obvious reason to me is that they don't want to be human, and their soul is a constant reminder of that. thematically, one can draw connections to neurodivergence and unmasking, or to gender dysphoria. they temporarily remove something that makes them feel different, a part of themself that they viscerally are uncomfortable with having inside them. i'm a little biased when it comes to looking at media through a queer and/or neurodivergent lens, but still. they're also literally nonbinary, so there's some merit to a queer reading, but i think the worlds (at least in terms of monsters) in undertale and deltarune might just have a different idea of normal than our society does. idk. that's probably not in the translation book lol

[@hades_head_empty]

also i think the three save files are just alternate timelines, especially bc they're mostly a quality of life addition for players who want to do multiple routes. and our soul is just moving to which timeline we want to control when we load a save. just my two cents

[@valenmaita537]

As a nonbinary person who would prefer not to have a body I can relate to this being a metaphor or something for Kris rejecting themselves and wanting to be something else, I also believe the part of them wanting to be monster and not human could be a trans allegory

[@hades_head_empty]

@@valenmaita537 exactly!!

[@V.B.T.G]

Hey Flygon, not sure if this was already answered or not. But what about when Chara was living in the underground. Doesn't Chara have a red soul aswell? Atleast it might have been implied? So does that mean they were also controlled by a player and had borrowed DT from the player at that time, or how did that all work. Just something I thought up about when seeing these Determination videos.

[@metal42]

Chara's coffin has red soul on it

[@V.B.T.G]

@@metal42 yeah that was the implication. So now I really wonder if they were controlled

[@guiltyflygon]

Chara is a weird case of a character who is kind of outside the game world like Gaster. Like, they have a history and plenty of references to them, but until we delete the world they can't make their presence known, and there's still some debate about whether or not the "demon" at the end of geno really is them at all. That said, the idea of Chara, and the twist to it, is that Chara takes on YOUR name. (or at least whatever you tried to name Frisk) So, in a way, Chara is a representation of the player. There's a bit of fandom mythology about Chara to dig through that makes it hard to assess when Chara is a character in the story (mostly flashbacks) VS when Chara is being a stand-in for our decisions as the player (mostly gameplay) but I think that connection to us could well explain their red soul. Good observation!

[@V.B.T.G]

@@guiltyflygon that makes alot of sense, thanks!

[@hi-ougidemonfang]

9:22 I’m so full of souls! Yum! ~ Kris probably

[@SSL_2004]

I think that Determination (the substance) is created by both humans and Monsters through feeling Determination (the emotion). The more determined you are the more determination you produce and the less likely you are to die. Humans just produce much more of it than monsters on average, and in turn can handle much more of it because of their physical bodies. Undyne however, was so incredibly determined in genocide, that she produced an excess amount more than any monster could ever handle. Not enough to literally overwrite yours, but enough to stave off death for just a little longer and get a massive second wind. I think it's very very evident that saving is not tied to Kris or the player. It's clear that it's controlled by Gaster which means attempting to tie into determination in any form is fruitless. DT not being tied to SOULs, or Residual DT make by far the most sense. Particularly residual DT, because if you argue it's not a SOUL thing you need to invent a reason for why other Lightners have it too. If it's SOULS, then their SOULS are giving them Determination, and we as the player, represented as the Red SOUL, are giving ours to Kris Kris can "survive" without the SOUL for a bit, but they're CLEARLY dying (as one does when they rip out a vital organ). If they were able to act completely independently with no consequence they wouldn't put it back in. It could be that their determination is being derived from their ego rather than their SOUL, i.e. their actual consciousness, or alternatively and more likely in my opinion, it is coming from the SOUL, but it's just taking a bit of time to "bleed out." Asriel was able to retain his monster form and empathy for absolute ages after true pacifist, showing the determination can "stick" for a while, even when all of its source has been removed. Kris can't do it nearly as long because it's just one human SOUL as opposed to the equivalent of over 7, and that they're an actual human who needs a SOUL to survive as opposed to a flower that doesn't. Not to mention that these kinds of plot convenient ticking timers and grace periods are very common in fiction (and honestly more realistic). It's just kind of obvious. If you rip out your literal heart, you don't just instantly lose all of your blood that was already flowing through your veins, it takes a while for it to bleed out. If a human SOUL has enough determination to persist after death, why wouldn't it have enough determination to leave residual traces when it's removed. I think it's very unlikely that Kris has a separate soul, because then their strained movement and choosing to return the SOUL would be awkward to explain, as by that logic they would be able to survive perfectly fine without it. Regardless, the simplest, and cleanest answer is that Kris has one SOUL. Either ours put into them, or their own that we've taken control of (probably the latter because it has less variables). While it's in their body we can control them ALMOST entirely, but they are capable of tearing it out. When they do, due to literally ripping out their SOUL, they begin quickly deteriorating and can only walk at a slow limp while they go about their agenda, requiring them to immediately put it back in, whether they like it or not, as SOON as they're done. The entire symbolism between Spamton and Kris points to this pretty on the nose with the fact that Spamton (KRIS) hates his strings (SOUL) but is unable to function without them. I can't really see how this symbolism points to anything other than Kris dying when their SOUL is out. Occam's Razor suggests that you should generally prioritize the answer with the least amount of variables. Everything else requires you to invent several plot points. Residual DT is composed of the most common sense interpretations of what's happening on screen. That said DT being tied to ego is about as likely.

[@ibdora05]

Interesting video. :)

[@jebbrown9981]

I’m not sure the player really has to exist. It might be that the player is just Kris’s soul and that’s the “character” we play as. Chris might have just figured out how to separate from their soul for a time by holding onto some residual DT or something. Not sure it’s likely but I think it’s possible

[@TheSkyGuy77]

What if Gaster isn't this mad scientist everyone seems to think he is? What if he's the town doctor? And he's trying to figure out how to eject the player from Deltarune's world, so it can be made safe again? 😮😮

[@vjcoconutsluv26]

You sound just like my chemistry teacher omg

[@guiltyflygon]

What if I told you... Nah, I'm just kidding.

[@truemori6700]

4:36 this is complex, and i don't think that's actually what's going on. chara is the one you play as up until the end of the genocide route, in which chara confronts you, the player. it's not your determination, but chara's (since the name you put for your character is what chara's is, and since they say that all of the stats you've gained up until that point are actually theirs, it can be presumed that you actually are playing as chara). you save in chara's name. chara's determination is what allows you to save, not your own. but, oddly enough, chara still asks for your soul. so who's soul are you playing as? it's not your determination, it's charas. but from what i can gather, it seems like chara doesn't have a soul of their own? but if that's the case, why is it that we're saving in their name and playing as them? another question, why doesn't frisk have a soul? did they die? because if so, the body of frisk could have been taken over by the soul of chara. chara's soul could have lasted through death, which would be the only reason why we could play as them. but then why do we play as them in the first place? what's our role in all of this? why does chara want our soul? or maybe, in that moment, we actually played as frisk. idk. probably not, but that's my take although i havent watched the videos. so maybe i should do that before i say anything

[@guiltyflygon]

"Your power awakened me from death. My "human soul." My "determination." They were not mine, but YOURS." ~Chara Undertale It's definitely very elusive. Like, Chara is simultaneously a character in their own right and also a representation of the player, so it's hard to tell when they're filling which role. Regardless though it seems that the DT invloved is always ours, whether we're pouring it into Frisk or Chara's soul, or if it's somehow our soul. My own personal interpretation is that Chara remains in the same way Asriel did, with their body buried under the flowers Frisk falls on in the Ruins at the start. In that case their "essence" can be invoked by us when we name our save file what is coincidentally always Chara's name. (After all, they say they're "The demon that comes when people call its name.") Their essence is then imprimted in Frisk in the same way Asriel's was on the golden flower, our DT allowing them to exist beyond death. It's only in the geno route when we make Frisk so powerful that they are able to reassert themself in the narrative, much like when Flowey gains the power from the human souls and can re-form his body as Asriel. Overall it doesn't matter too much for this particular video though, suffice it to say the DT is ours regardless.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

i honestly feel like the whoal deltarune community is to obsessed about DETERMINATION for the good of theororising. what good is it to understand Determination other than who might be the Knight from what queen says. we should really talk about why Kris is choosing to keep us around if they hate us so much and rip us out. is it tied to determination? is it a 3rd entity that takes control and have that power? do Kris need us for something?. not that understanding Determination in DR is important but DR is more it's own thing from UT and people try it use UT logic there it's not there in DR

[@guiltyflygon]

I understand your frustration, but at the same time, if Toby didn't want us to think about Determination he probably wouldn't have introduced it again so soon. After all, most people were already speculating that the save points used a different power than determination. It's definitely intentional, that said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily important. We're show how Queen can be wrong directly after she exposits about DT, and chapter 1 also baited us with something from Undertale (Chara) before seemingly subverting it. Even in that case though examining how DT used to work in Undertale can still be useful, because it can inform the angle Toby might be shooting from. Examining Chara as a character and their life with the Dreemurr's can tell us something about how Kris may be feeling, but it also shows us how they're different. While Chara was willing to sacrifice anything to get their goals Kris seems to be a mostly normal kid that's lonely. Chara used Asriel while Kris seems to really care about him. It's by comparing and contrasting with Undertale that we can view Kris this way. There's also that the topic of why Kris is keeping us around is interesting, but I also think most would struggle to make a whole video out of it due to how little we can concretely say about it lol. That's KZbin for you. If it's DT then the answer's simple, they need us to survive. There's plenty you can talk about and form a long video around. If it's something else then... what is it? I dunno. I could make a wild guess and say it has something to do with Ralsei trying to appease us but I don't really have evidence other than vibes and that'd be like a 4 minute video haha.

[@maxicheese4609]

I know a french guy who has doing a pretty good theory about deltarune but I don't know if you will understand it.

[@guiltyflygon]

I took French in high school but uh... That was a while ago so I probably wouldn't no. I'd be interested to see the video anyways though, just in case I could maybe get some from it with some help from Google translate.

[@maxicheese4609]

@@guiltyflygon kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGTbg4Rvg5ugsJIsi=au9KjFRtITnetyWH for you, and he has also doing a undertale series.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

You don't rip off Jaru, you provide better evidence than he does with his fanfiction-styled theories.

[@guiltyflygon]

I do like Jaru's theories a lot actually haha. After hearing people saying the same thing over and over it's refreshing that his theories are almost always something new. I do think he uses evidence, it's just that his dramatic presentation sometimes obfuscates that whereas my presentation is so stripped down it's hard to miss. That said, other than the time loop theory to an extent, I don't usually find myself agreeing with his theories all that often lol. But thank you for the compliment.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

@@guiltyflygon I didn't mean that his theories are bad, just that they're more about what's very very interesting rather than what might be true.

[@scientificallyaccuratespino]

That’s so true. His stories go in a whole different narrative arc.

[@PocketwithFrog]

His attitude in all his videos is such a huge turn off, too. I'm sure some people enjoy the pompous and flowery narrative storytelling but that's just not what I want in a theory video.

[@scientificallyaccuratespino]

@@PocketwithFrog I agree!

[@King_crimson12]

First