RANT - MODELERS MAKE DIFFERENT MUSIC

[@TheOtherJohnBrowne]

I was feeling a little down today but then Henning said "flatiddity" and now I am happy again

[@EytschPi42]

NOICE!

[@nicolaebreaban8154]

​@@EytschPi42you got me at flatulence 😂

[@PooNinja]

😂

[@TheShrike616]

Gave a good proper chuckle idd 😂

[@ZacharyMoonshine]

and Flatulance hahha

[@Dan_Ranger]

If the drummer is bringing a kit, I’m bringing an amp. I get the convenience of modellers, and I’ve used them all over the years at gigs. Just something about guitar, amp and cab interaction. I’ve never been anti modellers, I’m just pro amp. Great video.

[@GallowayJesse]

Modeller into a tube amp 🔥🔥

[@Dan_Ranger]

@@GallowayJesseYep, that’s worked for me. Need those trousers to flap! 🤘🏼🎸

[@kareguritsu]

@@Dan_Ranger even though I've never played through this generation of Modelers (I do have some experience using Guitar Rig, Amplitube and Peavey Revalver but that was around 13 years ago or somewhere around there), and I just ordered a ToneX pedal I agree with every word said by You and Everything said in the Video. it sounds closer than it did years and years ago but there's something Sterile about it. it feels a bit like it's been sterilized and I think that's the right way to put it. that and it doesn't have the Balls like a real amp and cab does is the way it sounds and feels to Me. and even though it's not a full on hefty rig I love My 6505+ 112 combo more than I know I'll ever love the modeler (luckily I only payed $300 on sale Brand New for the Modeler instead of the full $400 dollars which to me made a huge difference in the decision to even get one). I mostly play Metal but I'm all over the place and like to play all different stuff. Rock, Blues, Jazz, etc... anything that makes My ears perk up and really makes Me feel something. no Nu Metal or Grunge (except a little bit of Alice in Chains, and the only country stuff that I dig is a bit of Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson and The Charlie Daniels Band, but Southern Rock is still something I really dig). I think We are blessed with this more "Old School Mentality". $#!T, I'd even say that there are some great solid state amps that You can't completely replicate down to a T. the Roland Jazz Chorus 120 comes to mind as well as a good few others, a lot of pedals (both analog and digital but most especially analog). like all generations there are plenty of things these new generations have and will benefit from. but there's also so much they're gonna miss out on as well. and I certainly share the attitude and mentality with Ya' Dan - "I’ve never been anti modellers, I’m just pro amp." couldn't have said it better Myself.🤘👍

[@Dan_Ranger]

@ Thanks mate, we have similar influences. Metal guy here as well, but grew up on Motown, Tower of Power and Skynyrd, with a load of Black Sabbath thrown in! Love a good tune. At home I’ll use the digital stuff, and I quite like to keep my finger on the pulse of it all and try it. Got to the age where I’m going to play gear I love and not follow the trends. I think I’ve spent a small fortune on chasing that 😂 Cheers mate.

[@zeebaig]

Your point is valid and I agree with it…just to add to this topic I think sequenced drums and softwares are convenient but are equally responsible for losing the power and feel behind the rock music.

[@ChaptermasterPedroKantor-kv5yw]

I think rock declined when after grunge it became backwards looking, obsessed with vintage tones and retro styles, rather then pushing the envelope of trying new things. The general audience has no problem with sequenced drums and software. A DJ playing pre-programmed canned music is now seen as a musician. So that clearly is not the issue. But the DJ sounds more rebellious then the aging rocker. In the 60's rock was the soundtrack of rebellion and it got reflected in 60's movies. In late 90's movies and onwards the rebellious underground vibe comes from EDM.

[@ibanezlaney]

@@ChaptermasterPedroKantor-kv5yw A certain grunge band in the early 90s also made it 'cool' not to be very good at your instrument. Where before that certain band came along people aimed to get better all the time. Things have turned around a bit thankfully in the last few years.

[@ChaptermasterPedroKantor-kv5yw]

@@ibanezlaney Maybe 1 grunge band, but the others were generally very good at what they did. And Dave Grohl was certainly very good at his instrument, the drums, in Nirvana. But what all the technical shredders of the 80's forgot, which most of them forget even today, and which Nirvana did very well, is that you need to write kickass songs. You shredding along perfectly for most of a song is not a song that will appeal to most people. And Nirvana wrote really simple but very good songs that kicked heavy metal from the mainstream back into the underground.

[@ShotGunSky]

I am taken back to the late 70s early 80s our band playing out constantly. I had a Hiwatt Custom 50 the old one with 4 inputs, both channels bridged, into a Marshall 4X12 with only the top 2 celestions wired, an MXR 10 band EQ to push the front end just enough. No Reverb. You are exactly right on the mark. This setup was alive in your hands and inspired you to play each note with thought. The reason being was each note, each tiny movement of your right hand muting the strings was instantly in everyone's head. It makes you a better player in every way, no hiding behind a bunch of reverb and effects. The room was the reverb. Pure Joy!!

[@ibanezlaney]

Spot on Henning. You have hit the nail on the head.

[@Cru2o2]

One aspect I think is overlooked when comparing tube amps vs modelers is the response each has. Different amps have different levels of attack, squish, and bloom from the way it saturates. A modeler, even when replicating the sound to a tee, usually has an immediate response to your playing. It no longer is an instrument itself that you have to account for and play to. That tight, quick, direct response you get from plugging in direct is another reason why players are getting faster, tighter playing more proficiently. They don't have to worry about how the amp will react. It gives them more control and just gives them back the sound right away. The best way to demonstrate this point is to take a nice, responsive acoustic-electric guitar, play it acoustically and then plug in directly into an interface, put headphones on, and just play. At least to me, I play much differently. Different kind of feedback loop I'm getting from each experience. Both are good in their own rights. Same with tube amps and modelers. I use both and love both. You can also see this with Jazz players, usually opting for immediate response in their gear. It's easier to focus on the note and technique itself without things "getting in the way". Hopefully that all makes sense.

[@izek01]

I used digital gear through solid state guitar amps for 16 years ish before i found the benefits of analog pedals over digital… fast forward a couple years and i purchased my first tube amp and discovered more playability through touch and feel in regards to my relationship between guitar and amp… i learned that guitar speaker choice also plays a huge role in this symbiotic relationship with sound. I feel music much better with real gear over digital software base equipment using monitors

[@ESP77769]

Thank you again, Henning!! Music is loosing it's human/organic pulse. It's still the same thing, the tone is in you head/heart and hands, going through your instrument, amplified out into the air, always will be...

[@Obigrobi666]

You are 100% right. I went fully digital with in ear for rehearsals. I miss the "in the room" feeling. The digital stuff is just conveniant. You should know both worlds and then decide. Most younger people only know the digital way. Digital is also much cheaper getting a good sound. Analog gives you the option to really make it YOUR sound.

[@victorvaldenegro4001]

I bought the Avid Eleven Rack when it first hit the market over 15 years ago. I powered it with a Marshall 9200 tube power amp. It was for my Rush tribute at that time. It sounded fantastic and I’m a tube amp guy. But I needed tons of flexibility. The Eleven Rack is considered a dinosaur now, even though the patches can still be used with the Headrush platform. The tube power amp is the key to giving the sound dimensionality. Thank you Henning!

[@WillCMAG]

I used to have a half-stack with a Peavey Valve King head. Some days when my parents were out I'd turn it all the way up and jam out on the front porch. It's definitely a different from of immersion. You're not playing the note you are experiencing the note. That's something that you have to experience for yourself. Through the whole video I kept thinking about my acoustic guitar playing. That too is a different kind of immersion where one tends to play each note and chord intently.

[@Amber57499]

Oh, it's Fossile yells at Lens on Sunday again, my favorite series! I like listening to your take. Sometimes I disagree, sometimes you change my mind. It's actually become my favorite thing on this channel

[@briancoyne6700]

I agree 100%. I have been saying this for years: all the great Rock 'n' Roll songs we know and love would not exist if it weren't for REAL tube amps in the room. That experience is what drove those artists to make those great songs. Real amps and real drums is the heart and soul of ROCK. Anything less is regurgitation.

[@glencross7499]

I love modelling now as it suits my bedroom playing. I used to be in a gigging metal band 20 years ago and I miss that Marshall 1959 100w head through a 4x12 so much. That first super distorted and loud open strum in the rehearsal room was therapeutic.

[@sinfirma23]

I simply believe that the improvement in modelers in recent years has arrived just at the most digital moment of humanity, in addition, we must add the fact that now they do sound as they should sound, that is, like a microphoned amplifier. Amplifiers sound more 3D in the room, fuller, etc...but if that guy who went to your studio and was amazed by the sound of a real amplifier, comes back to his apartment and realizes that that amplifier can't even be turned on to do not disturb neighbors or family...in the end you will continue with the modeling, or when you have to catch a plane, where will you keep such a wall? The amplifier simply sounds better ONLY IN THE ROOM, but people don´t play only in the room with good soundproof or in the middle of the forest. A product has appeared on the market that performs the same function for a professional guitarist but in an incredibly more comfortable way. It's just what we wanted in the '80s and '90s but now it becomes true. Modelers are the result of the natural evolution of human beings towards the acquisition of products that make their lives easier, more comfortable and efficient.

[@NickGranville]

I play loud as heck with my modeller and frfr (Fender Fr10) I don’t hold back. And hardly ever use IEM’s as I hate them. And I play all kinds of styles from Jazz to Funk, Blues & pop (and more) as a professional guitar player (session guy). I have very nice amps too (2x Victoria etc). I think music has moved on, that’s the difference not the gear. I think people think too much about this stuff and get it in their head the things are different via a modeller when it really isn’t and convince themselves the gear is the issue …. Remember it’s YOU playing the music, not the amplifier or other gear!

[@JonathanKillstring]

I mean, I feel like we can say all the same things about Yngwie? And the general Shred movement the first time around. "All notes, no feeling." Grunge was pushback against that. Which was also loud AF, haha. There's definitely something to be said for physical feedback from an instrument: it's part of why pianos and acoustic guitars are so timeless - they provide physical feedback to the player. I will say that this can go the other direction, where it becomes very self-indulgent about an experience that the musician - and no one else - is having. The audience isn't feeling that. They might be feeling something similar, based on the PA setup, but it's about the person on stage. Nothing wrong with that! Where I've seen issues in myself as a musician and with others as an audio engineer, is this: we get lost in the sauce. We think that something's awesome, perfect, when it's not necessarily. For every note-per-second champion without feeling, there's a cranked amp blues lawyer who thinks their shit doesn't stink. You can have problems in either direction.

[@michaelgallegos8811]

Excellent video i live in a very old house 1875ish,very thick adobe walls the sound with what ever head i use with a 4x12 cab is ridiculously amazing the amp in the room is n a class by itself..

[@budgetgearguru4211]

You’re right man. There’s nothing like a 5150 on a 4x12 in the room. Nothing. You feel like a freakin wizard

[@gtmuse329A]

Great (and valid) thoughts. Along with that, the amount of tones available on modelers has meant a loss of individual guitar tone that made the early guitar heroes so recognizable, partly due to the lack of choice in equipment…they used what was available, which was limited and created their own sound because of it. 🎸

[@MrAngryTwinkie]

My playing experience *feels* different as we get closer to and above 100 dB. There is a combination of psychological and physiological reactions when the air is moving and sound pressure levels rise. Musicians to instruments to air -- a very complex system. Amp modeling + vocal pitch corrections + gridded sampled drums = no longer a captured and idealized version of the thing; it's now an idealized FACSIMILE of the thing.

[@EJH-jn6mo]

You’ve captured the essence of the argument between amps and modelers. I use both but I’m only choosing a modeler out of convenience and even then I use a power amp and cabs instead of my monitors.

[@TheMixClub]

An amp, a room, hitting you in the gut = extension of my emotion. All of a sudden my slop also feels real. I think slop is also apart of vibe. I was just talking about this at all places after my moms wake Friday when some friends came to help me deal with the loss. My sons friend goes lets fire up the tubes and I was being lazy and go no.. then we started talking and i go. Imagine listing to fortunate son lined to the grid and Fogerty going through a sim. I think it would suck. We are castrating music. thanks for posting this. I needed it..

[@BrianCope-ff4yq]

100% agree.It’s that three dimensional sound that you get from a nice valve amp and cab.

[@richardkaderabek353]

I perceive two crucial aspects of contemporary guitar production: recording in a control room with a tube amplifier in a live room, which doesn't capture any interaction between the live room sound and the guitar at all, and the use of in-ear monitors during live performances. In the latter case, physical interaction may still occur (if a cabinet is present on stage), but the sound is perceived in headphones through a microphone and preamp, and the brain processes it with a slight delay of several milliseconds. Add the demand for silent stages and we get a legitimate reason to use a modeler. Let’s set aside virtuosos who use cabinets offstage emitting sound in the opposite direction to the guitarist himself or intentionally isolated setups...

[@CarstenGoeke]

Mal eben in 25 Minuten die letzten Jahrzehnte der Tonentwicklung erklärt. Mega Video. Danke und saludos vom Amp-in-the-room-Fanboy ✌🏻

[@angelorasmijn7306]

As a drumming sound-engineer owing a small practice-room for my band I agree fully about playing through a tube amp. I tested this with the guitar player of my band as we switch to playing with IEM. After a lot of listening and testing i bought an Engl E658 Steve Morse Signature 20. With IEM we use the tube preamp, tube power amp and the build-in cab-sim and it sounds great and is convenient (e.g. no sound in the room). For recording we also use a real cab with mics. Then it’s just the 2 of us and things can be loud. 😊

[@kennybmedia2357]

I totally agree. Much of what I've heard in live performance and youtube reviews does lack the thump and unpredictability of a live amp. Like you mentioned, the balls are missing. Its flat and not 3D. Modelers are definitely useful in the studio but the magic is lost in live performance. Its boring to watch as well. Everything is too perfect. Silent stages sound like karaoke sometimes. Live vocals over canned guitar. Yuck.

[@peterbatten596]

For me, I found my perfect in-between. The flat 4x12 oversized mesa has always gave me the best sound for anything I write, whether it’s standard tuning or I’m playing a 9 string. So within my budget, I kept the Mesa 4x12 and use a power amp with the tonex one with having all 3 amp-pedals from Revv (green blue red) because they never fail to actually sound the closest to an actual tube amp and always have a sweet spot with any amp I use on the tonex one. My riffs and best playing comes out of that setup, compared to just software and monitors. Great rant and there’s a lot of truth there.

[@basspartout]

Very good points here. We're living in an emulated world on our computers where we just emulate reality.

[@Teletex82]

This is one area where I feel Universal Audio's amp pedals excel. They do a great job of retaining that 3D sort of singing thing that you get with a tube amp, that harmonic content that, as you were saying, makes you want to let notes ring out and enjoy the space in between each time you hit the strings.

[@neileynonmusic]

There is a different skill set to play a loud amplifier than a modeler. Keeping it under control under stage volumes takes practice in itself. Which I think is your point. As others have said the issue is the places you can play an amp like that is diminishing.

[@Patrick_theshuttercanvas]

As a musician coming from an all analog background, who transitioned to digital for all the previously stated conveniences in this video, I could not agree with you more. This perspective is exactly why I am currently saving up to get a real tube amp again. It’s good to know that there are many others who understand why. Thanks!

[@BlackChromeJamTracks]

I use both. A helix for recording and practice at home. A 20 watt tube amp and 2x12 cab with the band/live. I love them both, but for vastly different reasons. Yes, the big open A chord while striking a Jimmy Page pose is def an amp only thing. Also I never noticed until you said it, I play noticeably slower through the amp than I do the modeller. Great rant, all excellent points! More Noodle kisses 😊

[@leonordmann]

I never thought it would be possible and I've always been drawn to Strat style guitars because I really like how they sound. However, I just got a LP style guitar now and I can't believe how much the sustain of that guitar influences my playing. This combined with a nice peavey classic is just magic. I tried a few mic positions now, playing through the fitting cab (V30 and GT75) and the tone is incredible, just how I wanted it to be. This just makes me happy and I can't really think of going back to a strat now.

[@schlep4730]

GREAT insight here regarding modelers vs real. I use both for different reasons. Agree whole heartedly with your insight. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Many miss these points.

[@zac8331]

Industry vs artistry doesn’t allowed new tools to be used correctly, just started to come out of a period of “perfectly shaped” over produced stuff, AI is the perfection we’re looking for, the perfect playing, pitch and sound, now we reminisce the “raw human” feel, just use the tools you need for the stuff you want to make, tech is here to support what we want to make, as a gen z I prefer vibe over loudness but my millennial bro is the opposite, we just can focus on what we want to get and get stuff accordingly

[@JesterDyne]

You are totally right i think. I've build in my Home Studio a Setup to compensate this a bit. My Tube Amps go into a Torpedo and from that i have a 20W Joyo Amp (FX Loop return) into a 1x12 Cab. I turn it on for big Chords and if i want some feedback on the recording. Because the Feedback is then on the DI Track it also works for reamping. I love Feedback for the End of Songs or if a Solo rings into the next part.

[@Herrierecordsinc]

I do use a tube preamp + amp in the rehearsal studio and live (a ENGL Tube Rackhead 860 into a ENGL standard cab with V60's). I do use a ENGL cabloader to be able to get the signal directly to FOH. Another setup we use is a Mooer Preamp Live through a ENGL 930 60 poweramp. Also with a XLR out to FOH. In my studio I use a variety of tube preamps through 2 ENGL Cabloaders, and I can divert the sound to a tube poweramp and cabinet. I use plug ins just for sketching songs. They lack the feeling I get with using real tube preamps.

[@Fergieguitar]

Spot on , on tour with Avantasia, the UA Lion is the core of the guitar tone BUT even though in ears are used by everyone, there's a non IR feed from the Lion going to a Boss Waza Tube expander that has the IR to front of house and sends a non IR 100w class A-B feed to a Blackstar 2x12 cab sitting pointing at the guitar players face for that "guitar -amp interaction" It just fills in that "thing" that feeling. I made a 1x12 monitor with a Celestion V30 just for that very thing. It's modeller to the audience but rock n roll for the guitarist

[@ZacharyMoonshine]

I have always played modelers into a power amp and real cab in the room. The only time i ever played with the headphones on was when recording. Great video though btw! Totally makes sense.

[@PeterUrbanPhoto]

Love this very smart and insightful analysis of what’s really going on in player dynamic when using amp vs modeller. My problem is that I feel like I’m ruining my hearing when I play an amp in the room at a level that is enjoyable / sounds good. So my solution is a hybrid system with a modeller front end and two backends, one for everyday practice and playing at healthy levels through studio monitors and a tube power amp / cab to switch on when I want it really lean into the feel. At least in my studio this works brilliantly for me.

[@davidclark7973]

You have put this concept across very well. Having played my Hayden Mofo live for 15 years I have just recently added a Boss GX 10 into the effects return with great results. You have to study how to use a modeller to get decent results and keeping a valve amp and cab on stage retains the thump. Great tone shaping and flexibility from a modeller which can aid in live performance. A very helpful video for those exploring the modelling rabbit hole.

[@HansNederland]

Yes, I think that you are right. Although I don't have a tube amp, I use 2 class-D combo's with some sort of stereo creator. What stereo creator? One of the following: 1: BOSS chorus with wet and dry outputs 2: Phaser based vibrato (Uni-Vibe style) in one channel. Or both channels for extreme effect, my favorite. 3: different overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedal in both channels 4: I forgot (didn't do for a while) All these give a great feeling of sound in the room. I play indeed old rock music and letting the notes sing is one of my main likes of playing guitar. Doesn't have to go real loud for this impression. Watch That Pedal Show from Dan and Mick, they play with 2 amps all the time (since years).

[@flame4928]

i can agree, while i love playing my helix for practical reasons (having to travel for band practise), nothing beats the way i feel while playing my tube amp once in a while, usually i writte on my tube amp too

[@eisbaellsche175]

I think youre exactly right, Henning. But dont forget, playin' guitar in a band situation (on stage) is differently to sitting alone in your room. You can impress people (and yourself) with less notes. This is fun already. No need for a million notes...😂

[@seahuntersammy]

I really like your take on this matter. Technology wise, there is no quality of sound to be had or lost from digital vs tube amps, but you can affect the player. The player is the only piece of the chain that has emotions to express, if the tone in the room moves the player, makes him feel a certain kind of way, the music is GONNA be better.

[@bilhorinek7406]

100% agree. I have plugins for home use. But in my rehearsal space with a 6505+ and a Marshall 4x12 and and Triamp mk1 with a 4x12 and a very loud drummer there is no comparison. You play freely you play (at least I do) with love. That sound just envelopes you. I find it difficult to write at the computer but riffs just flow with the amps

[@sodoffski5642]

All valid points. I never felt reality from Kempers, even through return sockets of 2 Marshalls. Great channel Henning. You are also better than you imagine on guitar (the bends are always tuneful)

[@SpinGoldmusic]

I've done both, and I just have a hybrid setup now. I use the quad cortex and the 100 watt tube power amp (Synergy 50/50). At the end of the day though you can write amazing songs either way. I don't think tube amps are more "rock and roll", because a good song comes from the artist having the right tools they need to get the job done.

[@justinsheppard84]

Explaining this to people can be very challenging. Most say i just don't understand the difference. My main message is feel. Your explanation today is pure Rock'n'Roll

[@chrisgoodchild2204]

I think it depends a lot on what your first experience of playing live was; the one that was satisfying and gave you that buzz. For many people, that was probably an amp and I have found it difficult to get the same vibe from modelling, despite the obvious convenience and choices available. However, for a lot of younger players, it’s more likely they are going straight to modelling because they’re approaching this in a time where volume constraints are way more prevalent. It’s great to not have the problem. I wouldn’t even say that using a modeller is a compromise for me, it’s just not THAT experience I had that made me love playing. I have used modelling on recording projects, gone direct to console, it all works great, I just want the amp more when playing with other people. Different gear absolutely makes you play differently, whether that’s a problem is another thing. An audience never cares unless they can tell you’re not into it.

[@toniusheidemann5771]

You mentioned a lot of aspects I’ve been thinking about recently. One thing is, that the limitations of the analog stuff actually spark a lot of creativity. When I started playing guitar a couple of years ago, I only had a crappy H&K transistor amp and my trusty Epipone Les Paul. In order to find the tone I was looking for, I couldn’t just flip a switch or two and that’s it, but I really had to put an effort in to make the best of what I had. And guess what, it worked, even in my cover band, in which I really needed to be rather versatile when it came to guitar tones. Nowadays, I’m really happy to have my Boss IR-200 on stage, because it makes life very easy. But if I play blues / rock gigs, I’d never be using that one, despite it being so convenient. Another thing is, that there‘s a tendency in music to have something happening all the time. There are fewer instrumental parts in the songs and if so, they tend to be rushed and packed with notes. If you listen to the beginning of Pink Floyd’s Time for example, the band leaves space for the music and every single note to unfold. It creates atmosphere, suspense and finally relief when the drums kick in.

[@stubrakon9683]

I took my ac15c1 apart and reboxed the amp in a plywood box. I then buried the speaker in the combo frame under the stairs with a mic. This was so I could turn the amp up and not get evicted. I listened to the mic through my model 12 and headphones. Sounded like a really good pedal. The experience of playing the amp was destroyed. It wasn't worth the hassle. Put the amp back in the combo. Broke a tube doing this. Brought new EH tubes. Amp sounds even better!! Conclusion, the guitar and the amp in the same room cannot be experienced any other way. The amp is part of the instrument. 😃👍😎🤘

[@raulbrandibur7770]

Hello Henning! I see this as a part 2 of the last week RANT somehow 😋. I understand what you say and also I grasp the difficulty in expressing it. My short take on this is that you remove a part of the human emotional element when playing an instrument. This is more pronounced when you write the music, in my opinion. Another example is playing together with a drummer. I'm guilty of using programmed drums 😒 but I also rehearsed and composed with a full band, and drums in rehearsal room are savage! The whole equation of writing a song changes when you are faced with the brutality or lack of it in that environment. You might end up changing passages that are not loud/aggressive/smooth enough or too much so for a certain part of the song. To come back to your idea, yes, you would play differently not to mention writing with an amp in the room. I attribute that to the 'inflicted' physicality of the sound on the instrument player.

[@male3083]

Yes, playing along with and syncing with a real drummer is way more fun and fruitful.

[@budgetguitarist]

I own tube amps and an HX Stomp (and Helix Native.) I like them both. But to me, one of the biggest differences is hearing damage. I'm OLD (59) and I've protected my ears so I'm fine, but I know a lot of guys who have partial hearing loss due to cranked up loud amps. At the end of the day, it's the player that really matters. I almost always use my HX Stomp these days, but no, I'm not selling my tube amps.

[@KeenanCrow]

Yeah I totally feel this. I play differently with a live amp than a modeler. Even with in ears.

[@RealAmpsAreDead]

I absolutely agree! I always need like 20min to addapt when I play a loud amp again after 10 days using Amplitube at home. It just feels different. Its more difficult to tame, harder to shred but way more exciting! We need more bands using the best out of both worlds - modeler and a tube power amp. Loud stages sound better - no idea why - but thats how it is!

[@andjelo555]

I started playing tube amps at 17, because it was too expensive for me to buy a tube amp, I played classical guitar and a ST copy through small transistor amp. 17 years later, I still play tube amps, I did use modelers to record, and sometimes live as a backup when backline amp died mid show, I did have a modeler ready to plug my guitar cable in and continue. And although I had at that time 3 tube amps - one halfstack 50W, one 2x12" 50W combo, and one 12W head with 1x12" box, switched to modeler. But it wasn't the same. So I bought a FRFR active speaker and cranked it up. But after a while, I still wasn't happy enough. Sold my modeler, kept the FRFR 1200W active speaker, and now I use this speaker as a speaker for loud backing tracks from the computer, and I play over it on my tube amps.

[@JRP3music]

I use mic splitter. I use either a tube head with reactive load or now an AX8. I tap the reactive load dry signal to my stereo fx blocks then return into a snall board with external reverbs and 2 Two Notes Torpedo Cab Ms. Send xlrs to PA and non cab sound to stereo power amp and cabs. I control my volume in my in ears or monitors. Amp sound is behind me. When I use the AX8 I leave the cab off and send the stereo outs to the small board with the Two Notes Torpedo Cab Ms. Instead of patching my pedal board. I leave the stereo fx loop open if I want to use it. Just switch a few cables. I like having consistent sound.

[@kimblez]

I am glad you did this video ...... more youtubers are micing amps again thankfully .......2 years ago a lot more people were depending on IRs and yes the sounds were more flat sounds more same sounding

[@dylanthomas389]

I wasn’t expecting much from this video because there’s a whole lot of videos about this subject. However you really nailed it with your detailed description. I use an HX Stomp through a Fryette power station. I’ve tried FRFR, and straight into the board. I hated it. TUBE power amp is the only way for me. I wish Fryette (or anyone really) would make a small tube power amp.

[@joseluisliberatore5590]

It's all about vibrations. When u feel the vibrations, it becomes emotionaly, when u have both , then crativity comes along. keep on rockin, folks

[@alangreenway6695]

I primarily home write and record. I own a Marshall for Humbucker distorted stuff, and a Vox AC15 for the chimey Gretsch, Fender, and Rickenbacker guitars. Having an amp in the room makes you react in time to sound coming out of the speaker. I am not going to be replacing my unpredictable lead guitar tones. But I got a BOSS IR2 recently, and I had great results finding sounds for rhythm guitars, bass, and even keyboards that allows me to dial in (and back) a sound that can fit in the space that compliments the lead guitar. I think it made my last project a bit less sludge-y. It’s also really good to test out ideas when writing so you don’t bother anyone.

[@timeconsumer325]

You're very much on to something, and I've been thinking about similar things a lot. I think about the band I spent >10 years playing in with my buddies. We played tiny little rooms, plenty of small outdoor festivals, good sized clubs in our town, etc etc. In so many of those situations, bringing a modeler and having some perfect deluxe reverb amp sound with pristine delay and then switching to an AC30 for the next song and then switching to a marshall 4x12 sound for the next song, etc, would've been SO weird and inappropriate. The options become inauthentic in a way. The logical argument to that is, "well, why not just create a single deluxe reverb preset with a couple pedals in it and use that the whole gig?". A good argument, but then why wouldn't I just bring my real 74 DR? ESPECIALLY if you're in a rock band and need to keep up with a drummer with ANY kind of stage volume. Then you get into modelers into power amps into cabs, etc etc etc. At some point an amp still kills. To be clear, I have had an HX stomp for years and years and it's one of the best pieces of gear I've ever bought for all kinds of reasons, but I still bring amps to gigs.

[@frjhracing]

When you were talking about "amp in the room" and running a modeler through a tube power amp vs a solid state amp - the main difference that gives you the response you were describing is all in the negative feedback circuit (presence / depth/ resonance). In a tube amp its proportional to the output volume and cabinet impedance. There are SOME guitar solid state amps that incorporated a negative feedback to their circuit. Namely some peavy and randall SS's. Even with those, the method at which it interacts is still not like a tube amps neg feedback. With tubes, the NF is decoupled because of the output transformer. Where as a SS will respond pretty much linearly with the amplification. So all the things like sag, impedance response, etc has to to be explicitly modelled or profiled. Also, when doing the modellers through a tube amp FX return - some NFs are routed into a preamp stage, and some are routed to the before the PI. Then you get into master volume amps too. What ends up happening is you are stacking the modelled negative feedback + the real negative feedback. Sometimes that works out and sometimes that doesn't - but at the end of the day its not avoidable on guitar tube amps My setup has a 200W peavy standard solid state amp through either V30 or Eminence Private jack cab. With a high power SS amp - you dont have any issues with the SS running out of headroom when pushing the volume. This results in keeping what would normally be lost in lower power SS power amps. Even that SD powerstage can run out of steam when at performance volumes. When it comes to monitoring, to still get amp in the room from models/plugins/IR's because I have an older analog/non digital surround sound with large bookshelf speakers. No latency and was "Very good" fidelity when new. That mixed with 200W as well means amp in the room surround sound and no latency. You cannot do that with anything relatively new because of all the digital surround processing.

[@nothing55rk]

I just got the Laney 4x12 FRFR Cab, it's really fantastic! Now I have the easy and freedom of the Kemper with any CAB IR AND pushing air feeling.. I agree with the Rant , AND I don't have the $$$ to have a room full of amps to play through. Lastly, after owning real amps for years and having a ton of issues with repairs and the $$$ that goes in... It's just not something I want to do anymore..

[@chriskohh]

I feel like in the studio environment a modeler vs a good tube amp mic'd properly it matters less which one is being used. However live it always makes a difference to my ears what's being used. Any show I've been to where the band is just playing thru modelers without a tube power amp, it always sounds flat. When they are those modelers are being pushed thru a tube power amp it always sounds much better. But nothing feels better than a real tube amp being played on stage for the player and the audience. You're right, players play differently whether they realize it or not depending on what their playing thru

[@strumminronin]

Yup. "Flatiddity" ❤️‍🔥🕊️🤘🏻 There's something "more fun" when I am using the amp, Vs playing through the Ampero original. The Ampero is insanely convenient, but I honestly feel disconnected from it. Whereas with the amp, it's like the amp "watches" my every move, but the Ampero has to be "watched", or checked upon. If that makes any sense at all.

[@kevinkemper8360]

Very insightful - thank you. Definitely ideas I've had but not have been able to articulate so well.

[@EmilioConesa]

Loud electric guitar tube amps will someday be lost in history. I have intense childhood memories of standing in the front row feeling the power of Duane Allman and Dicky Betts, Roy Buchanan (omg), Albert King, SRV, Jimmy Page… list goes on. Growing up in San Francisco going to the Fillmore West every week was my school of music. It can’t be captured. Live is the only way to experience it. Like seeing the Grand Canyon in person vs a video. The problem today is if I try playing that loud I’d be fired in a second.

[@fento9]

I couldn’t agree with you more!!!! There is NOTHING like playing through an actual tube amp live in the room. Leaning back on that cushion of sound.

[@rowbags3017]

I get the most satisfaction playing through my Laney Cub Super 12 - there's just a different experience from using a valve amp in the room - but I have to admit that the best sound I've ever had on stage was using my Tonefox Elcaster with a modeller into the PA at a local festival earlier this year. Ironically, though, I find I do a lot of my practising and writing on electric guitar with it unplugged.

[@robertbrown1778]

I think you've expressed this really well, the best I've heard in fact. And I'm someone who's being trying to justify buying a Fractal. Interesting point though: Mahavishnu were Biblically loud and McLaughlin played a few notes. But then they were really visceral too.

[@pedalscapes]

I'm yet to fully invest in modelling... My go to is the whole tube amp sound through Two notes or similar... But agreed, there is something magical about the whole guitar amp cab interaction in the room...

[@jimshomestudio]

I think modelers allow guitarists to practice their scales more. I wish I had one for that purpose. I use amps and speakers at home and the speakers are out back in a lightweight enclosure and ISO foam walled and carpeted booth. 87dB escapes the booth and the neighbors can hear. I don’t really practice, ever. Been playing a long time so I don’t feel it’s necessary to do acrobatics often. But I do enjoy the sound of amps and speakers, the way notes bloom and sometimes sustain with feedback. I crank my monitors, almost loud enough for the neighbors to hear the drums and song, the guitar is listening too. Pickups hear this, adding to the sustain and creating the feedback. I watched many years of Warren Huart, various interviews with engineers of our favorite records. All 70s and 80s inspired. Studied theory in school, played a lot of classical guitar in my younger days.

[@kenny_dc3]

I've heard Dave Friedman say on Tone-Talk many many times that guitarists need to be alone in a room with a single channel tube amp cranked and one guitar and just play. Get different tones without fiddling the amp mid-play, feel the pulse of the amp and learn how to control the feedback. And I largely agree with that, and am glad that my first non-practice amp was the Spider-Valve which did had Line 6's modeling capabilities, but had the oomph-ness of Bogner's tube amp design. After I sold it, I have been hell-bent in keeping everything analog as much as possible

[@Hiline1970]

Perfect examples and explanations! This should be mandatory viewing before buying a modeling amp or a tube amp. Thank you for putting this on the Tube. Just think you might sway some young person into to buying a Marshall and possibly saving Rock music. 🤘🏻🎸

[@Hiline1970]

Oh……I forgot! “It’s only Rock n Roll but, I like it”

[@stratman01]

Brilliant! Spot on. I like the way you think, Sir, and not just on this video.

[@mjbraunmiller]

Absolutely agree. However I think the biggest problem younger people face nowadays, is that loud volumes are just impossible to achieve. I and many others live in rented apartments, where you would immediately get in trouble if you'd crank an amp. My rehearsal space is a 45min drive away, so that's also not something I can do in everyday life easily. On stage we use inears and most sound engineers don't like loud amps either, especially in small venues. In addition to that, money is also not unlimited. So I have to make the choice - around 1-1.5k on a high end modeler which I can play at home any time I like, which I can play on stage, in rehearsals with out getting in trouble. Or 1-2k for an amp and cab, that I actually could just play loud once a week and it would just be a fun but impractical solution. Unfortunately the decision then becomes very easy. I'd love to be able to go downstairs into my basement, crank a Marshall with a 4x12 and play guitar like its supposed to be played. In reality, I simply can't. Therefore I am immensely happy for my Kemper or my Fractal, because I can play guitar when I have some spare time in the evening, I can record guitar easily etc. I would change for a big amp and cab in a heartbeat, but for most of us younger players, that is unfortunately just not an option.

[@mark.guitar]

I once had the opportunity (Waaay back in the day. Yes I'm an old fart) to play a 100w Marshall into a 4x12 linked with a Fender bassman into two 4x10's on stage at a festival. It was visceral. I have never experienced anything like that feeling when using a modeller. I love modellers because they are far more versatile but IMHO they can never recreate that.

[@Smurfman256]

I recently got reminded of this after being basically forced to play silently for the better part of a decade because a family member in a position of authority had a zero tolerance policy on hearing musical mistakes. Before I moved out, I decided to try playing my Twin Reverb with the speakers actually plugged in. Had it set to 3 on the volume knob, stepped on my Fuzz Face, and the whole rig just came to life and the sound pressure legit felt like a cushion I could lean against.

[@justice100forwin2]

So true a Marshall stack blowing your balls off , feeling the air being pushed....the sound is alive and the overtones just make you want to hear where that chord or note is going , because it won't be the same every time with valves. Also it's hard to argue that the musicians from the 60's to the 90's weren't more musically inspired. The more digital that has come into music the worse the music has got , sadly the guitar , pedals and valve amps are becoming things we enjoy as a hobby like somebody would building classic cars....but those cars won't be racing ever again.

[@TheAdjacents-ABQ]

The closest digital is the BOSS WAZA headphone system. It still feels digital, but it really does a great job of making me feel like it is real. Otherwise, digital always feels thin. You described it best, there is no "thump".

[@eoinjennings519]

I practice mostly on that but look forward to turning my amps on

[@daka4711]

As I am still a beginner in playing electric guitar, I must admit, that I unfortunately cannot completely comment on what you was saying about the tone and the notes themselves. But: as I was starting to learn playing guitar about a year ago, I was using plugins on my laptop. After some months that made me mad to always use the laptop. And so I bought a 25W tube amp (with power soak down to 1 W) and a 1x12 cab. And even as bloody beginner, this changed my world. I loved the feeling of playing. I cannot explain, what it exactly was. Unfortunately, even on 1 Watt resp. with low volume, it was too loud for the other family members in our house due to the 1x12 cab. Especially the older ones. 😉 So I had to sell the amp and the cab again and used the money to by a stand alone modeller (a really good one - you mentioned the brand) and two monitor speakers. According to volume, it is no longer a problem. The sounds are really great. But it is really a different feeling than on the tube amp. I am pretty sure, I will by this amp once again in the far future. But meanwhile I will use my modeller and have fun with it. I think, it all depends on the needs and the environment. Thanks Henning!

[@celestialode]

So so true. Nothing matches a 4x12 cab and a tube amp (no matter which one). For the sake of comfort and carrying around less weight we opted in towards a more sterile sound. My Driftwood Minightmare and my Fortin Sigil beg for me to play them. While a plugin simply does the job

[@saarangnarayan123]

Btw, re. "in-the-room", I agree that tube vs. SS Class D makes a big difference. But FRFR vs. Guitar Speaker-cab is a MUCH bigger difference. Another factor is SPL; tube amps throw out a MASSIVE amount of dBs, and we often forget that when dialling in modellers.

[@pepeowen]

Whether they make different music or not is not the point. They sound good enough on their own terms, that's amazing. In 2024, into 2025, we have these options and we are blessed. And they can coexist with traditional tube amps. However, one point that is often missed is that in most recordings, in a mix, few people will actually be able to tell them apart. I am not talking about solo guitar recordings, which are tricky as well, but in a mix a good modeller will sound great, and so will an amp. There is no such thing as an "amp in a room" once that amp in a room is recorded through a microphone. (Edit: I forgot to mention you actually do cover this point, and that is quite refreshing).

[@Worlds_Worst_Guitarist]

Das ist absolut richtig! Ich vermisse noch heute den "Druck" eines echten Amps und die Interaktion in jedem Modeller. Mein Ton wird nicht mehr getragen. Ich versuche dies mit einer gewissen Kopfhörerlautstärke auszugleichen, ich kann in der Mietwohnung nur noch mit Kopfhörer spielen. Auch da kann man gewisses Feedback bekommen, ist aber nicht mehr unbedingt gesund für die Ohren aufgrund der Lautstärke direkt am Ohr. Ich versuche dies zu kompensieren durch gute, teure, Kopfhörer da ich der Meinung bin, das diese per se weniger Eigenverzerrung haben und damit unschädlicher für das Gehör da die sonst ständigen hochfrequenten teils unhörbaren Verzerrungen nicht mehr das Ohr belasten. Aktuell ein Beyerdynamic DT1770 Pro MKII, den kann ich nur allen Gitarristen empfehlen. Bei selbst noch moderater Lautstärke ein Mörderpfund, Dynamik und "Live"-Feeling, bin begeistert.

[@ryanhalliwell6671]

I use a Kemper through a Kemper cab , it has speaker imprints similar to the line 6 power cab the speaker modeling makes a huge difference vs. FRFR. The other guitarist i was playing with had. A 2x12 5150 and I had no issues whatsoever. In fact got a lot of good feedback and interest on my set up. It also felt great to me And this was when I first switched from decades of tube amp setups, it really was surprising how I didn’t feel any real difference.

[@k.edwards6746]

Hey Henning here's the counterpoint you are really right, yet more people live in apartments and more people are using home recording devices now days! Simply put you can't play a loud amp or record in apartments. The average person doesn't have true professional sound studio as just a room in their house! You are right todays players are technically amazing, but they don't play with soul, feel, or bluesy anymore...its just fast or loud or played super aggressive now. These days very few bands are writing really great classic bluesy, rock tunes now!

[@MusicTherapyLaz]

I say let the Artist have dynamic control of their TONE. Why? Well, at a recent gig, for example, the FOH guy said I should get in ears... for a small bar gig... I just rolled my eyes and said F that! At the end of the show, he complemented me on how I used my volume knob control on both keyboards and guitars to get the right blend with he rest of the group... it was a great night. Not bragging just saying that I got the biggest applause out of the crowd when band members were announced for a reason... I care more about how I and the band sounds than most, if not all, FOH guys. Though... I do have to agree, modelers, etc. definitely have their place, especially for touring bands on the meager budgets they're allowed these days! Musicians have to fight for their right to sound good, for themselves and the crowd... and they appreciate it when you make them feel like you do up there on the stage... like a Rock God you're playing for that moment! 😎🎸🤘🎹🎶🎵

[@sunnibird]

Great, now I miss my Marshall half stack. But that's been gone since the late 90s. I was just having this debate with myself trying to decide if I want to get an amp or a modeller. Amp shopping it is.

[@frankfionn]

I totally agree with you. In my favourite album of the year the sounds are so imperfect, but it makes the music so spontaneous and alive. I don't think you can get this with modelers, at least not on the fly.

[@BrianAlexSinger]

“The next note you’re going to play is going to be sooner than if you were playing with an amp in the room.” Brilliant and important observation to share. Awesome.

[@bergsofcanada2757]

Part of what you describing here only applies if you were standing in a room with the amplifier and it is very loud and you're standing close enough do it for the feedback reaction to happen. There are many professional Studio situations where people do not even try to make this happen. Like an amp down the hall in an isolation chamber with mics on it and you were standing in the control room. Minimal effect.

[@constantinosmavroyannis9409]

i believe the unpredictability you mention comes with higher levels and it's not so much we dont take the modeler sounds in the room because of a lack of "unpredictability" but the other way around and we have lost that unpredictability BECAUSE we dont take the sound in the room with a guitar cab and the high levels of moving air that causes this effect because we have been spoiled by the convenience of having a modeler bring a 100watt master-at-10 marshall through a full stack sound in our ears through headphones. i believe if you isolate and mic a real amp and only play it like that, this unpredictability will be missing as well. or at least it will be much diminished and be at the same level that a carefully modeled digital solution like axe fx (with its 1000 knobs just for the "feel" of the amp) offers. thats my view at least

[@horizonxx_1]

This all makes a lot of sense. Also the thing about software or modellers is that for them to sound good depends on your computer, monitors and room acoustics. Latency kills the feel.

[@melomane01]

We live in the golden age of gear for guitarists. The offering, quality and value is exceptional. Modellers and tube amps are not in opposition, they are simply part of the continuum of tools available to the modern player. It’s a question of use case and preferences : (1) In October 2012, I saw Rush third row from the stage. Alex Lifeson was not using any cabinets. He used amp heads and Fractal Axe Effect. The sound was great and the show amazing. (2) In March 2019, I saw Joe Bonamassa, second row from the stage. He used a bunch of miked amps. (These Fender Twins were LOUD…) The sound was great and the show amazing. I’ll conclude by quoting my favourite lyricist (Neil Peart) : «…All this machinery making modern music, Can still be open-hearted, Not so coldly charted, it's really just a question of your honesty, Yeah, your honesty…»

[@patrickpierson6079]

I played many years with acvamp2 and many people do not like it. I always played it throuhg the return of a tube amp ... And that made him live.. 🎸👍🤘

[@ovivan79]

I’m modelling all the way and I love it. But then I plugged into a Suhr Badger 18 hooked up to an Orange 2x12 cab at Session Music, and I was shocked how responsive the amp felt and how connected I felt to the sound I created. I wasn’t looking for that experience because all I wanted was just check out a guitar, not an amp. 😂

[@olek36]

Totally agree, same with high output pickups, just kills dynamics in playing. But. Very big BUT. We've been there, and we'll never be again. Just new times with new sounds and new way of playing.