Rape Revenge & Promising Young Woman| Realism vs Catharsis

[@ard4461]

As a survivor of abuse this movie definitely reminded me at the end of the same things the world has shown me over and over; I can’t overpower a man. I can’t expect him to face consequences for the harm he did to me. And if I somehow do succeed and he is held accountable, it will only come at immense cost to myself. It’s realistic but… god. It hurts.

[@aliceinavalon]

This, absolutely this.

[@Fantallana]

It would be great if men actually paid attention to this pain instead of telling us we’re exaggerating and that we don’t live in a patriarchy or rape culture. :)))

[@brendaleelydon]

@@Fantallana My bf grew up with some *very* old-school, old world parents (for context, I'm in my mid-40s, he's in his mid-50s), & it's crazy to me how...unexamined he is in many ways. I was trying to explain something about how women are treated in public spaces, even at a very young age, and without saying it directly, kinda questioned if women weren't exaggerating how much this happens, particularly because *he never saw it when he was out with women* and I was just blown away by the idiocy of that take. I told him, "Of course not - you were there. You're presumed to be romantically involved with the woman you're walking down the street with, and the catcalling men are 'respecting' you. *YOU.* Not being respectful to a woman just because she's a human being, but *ONLY* because she's seen as 'belonging' to another man. It's just yet another way women are treated as OBJECTS - they don't treat me like trash if I'm with *you*, because they don't feel right 'stealing another man's property' - as if his partner is really no different from a car or wallet; he's not gonna try to swipe it if you're around, but will go for 'your stuff' the moment your back is turned, whether it's your wallet or your wife." He hadn't thought about that way before. 🙄 There are a LOT of men I know who have thoughts like this and I just want to shake them all. What kind of clout or w/e do they think we gain from talking about it? *SURELY* they have noticed how crappy society treats women in general, but particularly if we speak up about the injustices thrust upon us. What TF do they think we're gaining? Because the net 'reward' for speaking up is generally death threats, along with calls for us to unalive ourselves and prayers that we (wait for it...) get attacked ourselves & heck, many offer to come attacks us personally! 🤦🏻‍♀️ I think many of us speak up in hopes that maybe, just maybe, if there's enough voices, people will hear and believe us. They just don't want to understand the idea of intersectionality (such as, "yeah I'm a white cishet dude, but things aren't perfect, I'm still struggling in the world!" - yeah, cuz you're also poor), therefore the rest of the people complaining must be exaggerating or straight up lying. Plus just not wanting to look at themselves in case they might see ways they've contributed to or straight perpetrated similar violence. But of course, patriarchy doesn't exist. 🤐

[@meggy0]

Yeah I totally agree. This movie really resonated with me and I felt like the ending was really the only ending. And what’s also depressing is that with good lawyers he’ll probably get off with manslaughter and be out in a couple years. Being arrested doesn’t mean justice and that’s the sad reality.

[@gladis2646]

This and it’s painful to watch… so maybe it’s not the movie I am hating but the sad reality… However, the police enacting revenge is as unrealistic as the rest of the movie was realistic.

[@sennnia]

I understand why people don't like this movie or it's ending. And that's valid. All I can say is that I watched this movie a month or so after my ex boyfriend tried to kill me by strangelation, and I didn't need or want a happy ending at that point in my life. And I still don't, I think. For me, I am not sure if this is a cathartic ending, though it does something to my brain, but I can't explain what it is. There is this kind of satisfaction of... This is my pain and it's on the screen and other people are forced to watch something that I cannot express and almost did not survive. So idk. I understand it's just my subjective relationship with that kind of violence at the particular part of my life. But again, I know why it would be problematic to other people. So. Idk.

[@Princess_Weekes]

And that is totally and absolutely valid. I’m sorry you went though that 🧡

[@SonjaPond]

Thank you for sharing your story

[@Bpaynee]

Although it's for different reasons, I think I might understand. When trying to explain my assault to people who are "innocent" of such experiences (not quite the right word, but maybe you get my meaning), on a weird level, in trying to use my words to explain what happened, I felt responsibility for the situation and how it got where it was, responsibility for the logic of my assailants in just having to explain what happened, because to them (especially people who care about me) it shouldn't have 'had to be' like that so they just wanted to know 'how' and I couldn't really explain it. Other people just don't want to think about the full weight and reality of the experience and would prefer to default to the fantasy. In trying to communicate with people when I've tried to explain, I've definitely found myself suggesting music or movies to people because somehow there being a "thing" to back up my feelings or response or show it sort of objectively made me feel more sure of myself. That may not be what you're talking about, but just know there are people who want to understand you and share that pain with you so you don't feel alone in it. Much love

[@sennnia]

@@Bpaynee actually, I think that's similar.yo what I mean. At least I really relate to it. Thank you

[@mcarlisle3559]

i have the same story and i get it. thank you for sharing, i hope you're well

[@kcazllerraf]

It feels like Promising Young Woman was meant as a message for enablers and apologists more than it was for survivors. I feel like it succeeds in holding up an unflattering mirror to people who want to believe they're good people who do the right thing but it does so instead of providing a true catharsis. It's also a very different kind of film than the rape revenge movie it was marketed as.

[@RachaelTheRed]

That's kind of how I interpreted it as well. I felt less like Cassie was trying to avenge Nina or bring justice for what happened to her and more like what happened to Nina turned Cassie so cynical that it pushed her to almost deconstruct the people around her and in turn show everyone the ugly bits that she saw in them. It's like she was so disillusioned that she had to show society what it had really become and in the process she just happened to become a sort of avenger/vigilante. While it definitely could be interpreted as a revenge story I feel like it's more of an exploration in how grief can isolate us and turn us into the darkest versions or ourselves. I think that isolation is actually really well illustrated in her relationship with Ryan. When she develops that human connection with him, her view of the world brightens. But when she sees the video she not only relives the loss of Nina but she experiences the betrayal, and subsequent loss, of Ryan. It puts her back in that dark, cynical place. Calling the police at the end almost acts as the biggest mirror of all as she shows everyone at the wedding that nothing and no one are as innocent as they seem.

[@AJ-cq5pw]

I agree. It's more about rape culture not really about survivors

[@Raya-xw5ud]

I agree. I realized it wasn't what I thought once it was revealed she wasn't killing them. I think that sort of threw me off enough to reassess it's purpose, message, and my expectations. That and the little "romance" detour in the middle. It's not perfect, and who knows, maybe it could've been better if it were different, but I think I prefer it as is. The only part I really struggle to with is that we're supposed to trust the system to work this time. I can see it as a mirror to the people at the wedding; it's a great strategy to make it a spectacle if she's not going to be around. But I'm not sure what to take from it as an audience member. Hmm, I shall have to ponder it more.

[@lilac.mascara]

I agree it kinda missed the mark on marketing a little bit. On one hand I was pretty disappointed when I watched it for the first time. But upon my second watch I realized my expectations were for it were very wrong.

[@Zaftique]

@@Raya-xw5ud "I realized it wasn't what I thought once it was revealed she wasn't killing them" Based on the hired muscle waiting outside the lawyer's office that she called off, I have a suspicion that if the 'date nights' went a certain way, the men very definitely might have had a bad time of it later on. The different colored tick marks in her notebook may be indicative of something.

[@thebestoflast]

I actually love Promising Young Woman but I knew when it ended that a lot of people would hate it which is valid.

[@eddykagia4212]

This

[@cepahreinholt8710]

I love that movie

[@Mavisdundundunnnmanston]

Yeah. I liked it. The felt like how most of the reality is. You won't get the justice you want, but at least you might get some good.

[@moxxibekk]

I LOVED the ending. It was so, so realistic and left me gutted.

[@bannedmann4469]

It lost me with the lawyer character. So twisted and villainous to write him groveling like that.

[@destine1547]

From interviews I’ve seen from the Director it seems she’s stating that often times the price of justice is utter self destruction. I think this movie was marketed as a rape revenge film but isn’t one and feel that’s where it’s unique. I really liked it but can also see why some weren’t into the ending, but I feel in no way the ending undercuts what the movie sought to do. Which seemed to be to expose how we all can be complicit in rape culture but also how “justice” from systems that support rape culture also function at the expense of victims even when they attempt to convict.

[@kellynmarsh2612]

As a survivor myself, I can’t speak for everyone, but I love how the movie ended, because I think it has more potential to teach people, than it would if she had gotten revenge and survived. I especially think the decision to have the rapist coddled after Cassie’s death, how he was held and told that he “did nothing wrong,” was heavily impactful! I think that scene impacted me more than any scene in the movie, because it feels so real. It really did point out the insanity of how often rapists, particularly young rapists with promising careers, are treated in our society compared to their victims, and I think may have even shed a light for people who haven’t been able to really get that before. I will admit, the people who need to see this most, might not see this, and that sucks, but I am SO grateful that this wasn’t your classic revenge story. I would hate for this movie to lose it’s truth and meaning, because they wanted to please people, because living in a fantasy life where we can have our cake and eat it too doesn’t teach people, it doesn’t serve the purpose I think this movie achieves beautifully. Despite Cassie’s death, I felt catharsis, mainly in the fact that it showed those people who yell “just tell the police” why that doesn’t work. It sucks, but unless someone dies, you’re unlikely to get convictions in your case, and even if you do, it’s hardly an appropriate sentence, even when children are the victims, and most people don’t get that, they don’t know what it’s like, because they don’t have a good representation for that. I’ve heard assumptions that if you don’t get a conviction in your case, you must have been lying, or even if you aren’t, you should respect what the law decided, because it’s a just system. Watching this is a visual representation on how many systems fail victims, and help show naysayers why their assumptions are so wrong. Cassie’s death is what helped convict her friend’s rapist, and yes, it sucks that it had to get to that, but it feels more genuine, and impactful in the sense that it has more potential for change, because it will help more people, who haven’t experienced what it’s like, to understand, and I don’t think we’d get the same results if she had gotten him arrested without her death on his hands. I truly feel there is much less for people to learn if she survives, because the sad truth is, unless there is a body, rape is not taken that seriously in our court systems. People need to learn these things, and I think, seeing it like this, with a character they’ve grown to root for, it’s sadly a lot more impactful to some than if any of us told them how it is. That’s why, even if I hadn’t felt catharsis, I’d still appreciate the ending all the same, because I want more methods of teaching people how to empathize, and understand the intricacies of just how fucked our justice system is, way more than I want a feel good ending.

[@EasterWitch]

Thank you for putting into words how I feel about this movie

[@luciskies]

As a fellow Survivor too, that's how I felt too. At first I was super upset when she was murdered, but it felt realistic. I was also grinning so hard at her timed texts and it felt totally nature for her character to make a plan like that imo. She's super type A and incredibly intelligent. It truly hurts that she had to die to make the rapists accountable, but realistic due to our current Justice System. I also wish the person who hurt me and our mutual friend (who was closer to him...so ex friend of mine) could both watch this film.

[@choosecarefully408]

​@@luciskies Why would you want them to watch this? There are only 2 possible outcomes: 1) they see it your way, 2) they don't. & there are various outcomes regardless. I remember being wronged by plenty of people plenty of times. In many cases, I got to confront the people who did it. Know what happened? In every case, the person didn't even remember the incident. I'm not important enough to them for them to have considered for a second, even after feeling satisfaction over the incident to have been remembered. Now, here's the question: what would have changed *for **_me_* if they _had_ remembered? Or if they had apologized? The incident is the problem. The apology is needed because of that _incident!_ Ergo, the apology isn't even the thing itself. Why seek it? Sorry to say, but a sad aspect of life is that sometimes you're a victim. If you never move on, you're the only person who suffers. Even a True Apology will eventually feel very hollow. The closer the person was to you, the more so. I'm not saying this to be mean or belittle you, I'm speaking from experience. Imagine getting That Acknowledgement of what had been done to you. How would you feel immediately? Some elation. Then after a time, you'll realize it still bothers you. The acknowledgement doesn't _undo_ the incident or how it affected you. Getting past the incident doesn't lie down that path. Which is actually _good_ news. The quicker you get to where you can exorcise the negative effects upon yourself, the better.

[@wompwomp1015]

This. This comment.

[@evdokiaCHARALAMBOUS]

I absolutely needed this comment

[@animeotaku307]

A bit of an interesting fact: the director of “I Spit on Your Grave” based the story off of an experience where he and a friend encountered and helped a woman who had been raped and beaten in Central Park. They took her to the police and saw how callously the cops treated her (including putting off taking her to a hospital until the director insisted on it). So while the director didn’t go through it himself, he got an audience seat to it.

[@banxeescreems3337]

I remember reading about that. Felt a pit in my stomach, his account was truly genuine in his disgust with how she was treated.

[@moonlily1]

I call bullshit. I Spit On Your Grave is rape fetish porn disguised as rape revenge so people don't have to feel bad about enjoying a 25 minute gang rape scene. The rape is a third of the movie's run time, the revenge is almost and after thought, and her suffering and her violence are equally eroticized. Jennifer is a hollow character with no development and little personality who exists only to be tormented, and then turn into a cold killing machine. And her assailants aren't regular guys, they're a bunch of inbred goons and miscreants that live up to the people's stereotype of a "rapist" as psychos hiding in the bushes, they couldn't be guys you know, guys you go to school with. That film has no redeeming features. What comes across isn't a sense of "disgust" for how victims are treated but pure shameless sensationalism without insight or sensitivity. Whatever he took from this experience...he didn't put out anything helpful in response to it. All he did was engage in more exploitation.

[@Thepriestessdeath]

@@moonlily1 thank you! I feel like a lot of male directors are like that unfortunately and I hate often they choose to depict a very intense trauma they haven’t personally been effected by and don’t really understand …it is often sexualized and sensationalize, theres a lot of voyeurism and it’s very porny and degrading…there are absolutely a lot of people in denial about their fetishes/dark fantasies and it’s gross how they try to frame it in a way where they’re this heroic nice guy… when what they’re doing is what you pointed out exploitation 👏👏👏💯….and yea it’s super convenient for them to distance themselves by portraying the attackers as strangers and in this cartoony villainous way…I’m really tired of male directors doing what you described, there’s really no need to show it and im sure those scenes require several shots and that’s messed up to make anyone act that out…it’s gross that he’s getting any kind of praise for that! as a survivor I don’t like how theyve created this sort of ‘redemption’ arc for US by having the survivor kill the guy or guys which is so messed up on a multitude of levels…the tone is very disrespectful overall…

[@moonlily1]

@@Thepriestessdeath Nearly all rape revenge films have been written by men, and it reflects the mentality of a male trying to put themselves in the woman's shoes: What would I do? Well I guess I'd want to go kill them. Alright, and what does that get you? Contrast 'I Spit On Your Grave', written by a man, with 'The Nightengale' an equally violent film written and directed by a woman: Claire goes on a quest of bloody revenge, but Claire is still very much perfectly human, and finds that violence is unbearably ugly and brings her no pleasure, much less does it bring a relief to her trauma.

[@animeotaku307]

@@banxeescreems3337 Yeah. I could feel that anger and disgust while watching it.

[@JessieGender1]

Great video. I agree with your points, I left the movie so frustrated. But for me, probubly the biggest reason why was that the film seemed to wish to try to have both; to have it's realistic ending as well as it's moment of carthasis. Honestly, I would have been... fine is the wrong word, but understood if the film had just ended with her dying and the guys getting away with what they had done. It would have deconstructed the revenge fantasy film in a way that was like... yeah... this is the way the world is right now. Women can't get that cartharsis often, sometimes we just end up victims no matter how tough we are or how hard we fight. Or it could have had, as you said, cartharsis, allowing us to truly feel that FUCK YOU moment. But to try to do both I feel undercuts both feelings, and leaves you as the viewer with no clear sense of what the film was trying to leave you with.

[@ElectroSocketBlues]

I completely agree; I think there's artistic integrity in a film choosing to spotlight a bleak reality unflinchingly that's undercut by trying to tack on catharsis (especially catharsis via carceral justice 😬) to the end. A nihlistic film about grief and sexual violence definitely wouldn't be for everyone, but I take issue with "I don't want to see a realistically hopeless ending in a film when I could just watch the news" presented as a judgement of inherent quality vs subjective taste.

[@JSO-ts9du]

good point!!!!!

[@someblaqguy]

When I read your comment the idiom that comes to mind is *"If You Chase Two Rabbits, You Will Not Catch Either One"* Essentially "Focus on One Goal at a Time." I've yet to watch the movie, but I assume it probably felt as if the writers were confused about what kind of movie they wanted to make and couldn't settle on one thing.

[@someblaqguy]

@@ElectroSocketBlues good point about watching the news. Often times people consume fiction with the goal of escaping reality and I suppose that ending didn't quite meet that goal.

[@knowdaqueen177]

I think this is my favorite read on the film and very accurately explains why it felt off in the end. I didn’t get that off feeling until the police arrived at the wedding and her text messages started coming through. I agree it would’ve been “better” if they got away with it. His friend helping him cover it up and having his happy wedding day would’ve all been hard to watch but the sad realities we see far too often. And ultimately I have to wonder if Nina would’ve wanted this ending. Would she have felt some type of catharsis from her assailant being convicted of her best friends murder?

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I love your perspective here! I ended up with different feelings on PYW. I was okay with the avenging angel story where our lead is willing to destroy herself in her mission. It’s tragic and not what a lot of people are going to be looking for, but something about seeing this back at Sundance with the dead silence cutting through the crowd was just really chilling and stayed with me. The last 15 minutes completely being absent of Cassie was wild. It’s tragic that she let this event completely overtake her life but to me it was interesting to see it play out in a way I wasn’t necessarily expecting. That said there’s a definite conversation to be had, there is a lack of catharsis in its conclusion, but eventually that somehow settled on me as something I ended up liking? Lots to think about here. Also, I May Destroy You deserved more. Only upside is that it being snubbed consistently in awards circuits, put it on more people’s radar when we all yelled But yeah, I would also like to see the murder version.

[@Sogood869]

Honestly i hated watching the end but, it immediately made sense because all the stuff she was doing would get you killed in real life. I was surprised she wasn't harmed after the car window smashing scene.

[@caiolucas8257]

I didn't mind her dying in the end, but her motivation IMO was not that well fleshed out because at no point in the movie we get the vibe like she's depressed, she's on the verge of murdering herself. The more comedic elements IMO hurt the movie because a lot of time was wasted(the overlong Paris Hilton musial scene) in that instead of fully fleshing out our main character and why she would go on this suicidal mission. I could not help, but think about her parents, how would they feel if she died, her relationship with her parents is simply not well fleshed out for us to understand why she would do that.

[@muvaofpearl]

Yeah, I disagree wiith her prespective here. For those reasons. It wasn't supposed to be catharsis. You're supposed to be dumbfounded by the waste. It's *NOT* a rape revenge movie.

[@nachgeben]

@@muvaofpearl If you weren't supposed to get some sort of catharsis, it wouldn't have ended with her 'last act' postmortem. It would've ended without that.

[@probablyalive.2665]

Hey Amanda the Jedi! I think you should watch the video on this movie by "The Take", titled "Promising Young Woman, Explained - Look In The Mirror". It is an AMAZING analysis of this movie. Link for the video (just in case): kzbin.info/www/bejne/joK0lWNqaNqsjJo P.S. - I love your videos and podcast. Can't wait for your Degrassi and other planned videos :)

[@lizabee484]

“Because how often do we truly allow survivors to be viciously angry?” Yes. YES. Thank you. From a survivor who has so often felt that kind of vicious anger and so rarely felt that anger was valid or even been able to express it at all… it’s… to try and use a clumsy, probably trite and wholly inaccurate simile, it’s like I was being stifled and you gave me a f*cking megaphone and told me to go ahead and scream. I hope that conveys some fraction of the catharsis that sentence and your video gave me, even if these films/shows might not have the same, or at least not in the same way (although I do find I May Destroy You absolutely incredible). So… uh… thanks. You rock. ❤️

[@Starkweather133]

You might "enjoy" violation. It's a much better portrayal of anger stemming form that kind of incident

[@Man2Goblin]

It's only natural to express the way you feel and you shouldn't ever feel as if your emotion are invalidated because of an external entity. Wish you the best.

[@eileensnow6153]

As a fellow survivor, I know that a lot of well-meaning people will _tell_ you that you’re allowed to be angry, but when you actually express it they fall back into comforting platitudes (“it was a long time ago”, “you’re safe now”, dwelling on it will only make you feel worse”, etc.) because they don’t know how to handle it. They don’t realize that _we don’t know how to handle it either,_ but it’s still there and needs to be let out. I still need to find my outlet. That rage has to go somewhere.

[@osmanyousif7849]

For me I blame our mental institutions for not helping those who suffer trauma, find way to address such pain and anger. As many who have grow up believing that being fueled and possibly seeking revenge will help with that, when in truth, that will only exacerbated such pain and prevented the individual from coming to terms with their past. Trauma cannot be resolved externally. You cannot hide from your pain and you cannot dispel it by choosing vengeance. The only way you can move on from your anger, pain, and trauma is by addressing it, by looking in the mirror and facing your past. It will be hard, it will be painful, but it is the only way to move on. Failure to do so will only lead you to ruin.

[@dusty-pan]

I saw another commenter talk about how effective the sudden buddy comedy switch at the end was, and just wanted to quickly build on this, as it's the main reason that I personally loved the ending. Having grown up in a very male household where those kind of "dead/assaulted girl as the punchline" movies were a common staple of movie nights, having that 'comedy' be recontexualised from the perspective of the woman really hit home for me. Watching PYW with my brother was a really cathartic and validating experience for me, as it did a lot to expose how messed up a lot of the movies we watched as kids were, and provided an avenue for us to talk about that. I do recognise though that it falls short in a lot of ways, such as the weird flip to "police good," and I completely understand why so many people were/are frustrated by it.

[@rhiisamirrorball]

I don't think it is a flip to police are good. There was no justice for Nina and her assault in the beginning which obviously is a huge fault in the system. In the end the only way it seemed for any justice to be had legally was for there to be a murder. Cassie's murder. That's not saying police are good. That's just saying that police don't really take rape serious so another worse crime had to occurr. They are forced into action because of what happens to Cassie. It is likely that Nina's assault will never get justice, Cassie just wanted to take down her target the only way she could. The police aren't the heros of the story. Cassie is. In a very tragic way.

[@dusty-pan]

@@rhiisamirrorball That's a good point!

[@Man2Goblin]

I don't think it's normal for a guy (being one myself) to enjoy a movie where the punchline would be sexual assault or assault of a woman in general. I think most empathetic people would revolt at the idea. Maybe there are just a lot of bad eggs in your family.

[@HexagonSun990]

​@@Man2Goblin I know that when I was a kid, I was easily influenced by family members to believe horrible things that I wouldn't otherwise, like at a REALLY young age. And I think a lot of men are raised to believe certain things about women that they wouldn't otherwise. I think it's really weird to just suggest that their are "just some bad eggs" in their family.

[@remytherat2929]

What movies are using that as a punchline?? (Genuinely asking because I don’t watch a lot of comedy movies and this is a jarring statement to me, but still believable unfortunately)

[@Princess_Weekes]

Chapters 0:00 Intro 4:06 Skillshare Ad 5:27 Chapter One R*pe Revenge 10:24 Chapter Two I Spit on Your Grave 16:31 Chapter Three I May Destroy You 21:26 Chapter Four Promising Young Woman

[@obandsoller]

Is part of chapter Three missing? The Chapter 4 title card flashes in and seems to cut you off mid-sentence.

[@pennypixie]

@@obandsoller I noticed the same thing.

[@jzoobs]

@@obandsoller bump, "all of this, much like Cole...." 20:50

[@criticalmaz1609]

The amount of times I've heard the sentiment "Oh, those poor rapists, they got beaten by a girl!" I think it comes from a place of extreme entitlement, like anger and violence is just something that men get to do while we're supposed to sit quietly in the corner.

[@lilac.mascara]

Imo it stems from whole perfect victim mentality. Like if you do anything other than sit idly by and cry then move on you don't deserve justice and those poor men, they have the right to due process. Like if a victim is also a person with flaws or any nuance it discredits her. That's also why I like the book My Dark Vanessa so much.

[@VDOTU5]

I do not understand feeling sorry for rapists characters. Like... how?! Oh my, imagine if people start caring about the reality of males who are raped by women, we get more stories on screen that shows women rapists getting tortured. Those "poor rapists"-people would go overboard!

[@animeotaku307]

@@VDOTU5 I honestly don’t think it would. People generally seem to thibk that a woman raping a man is either good for the guy (“looks like someone is getting some action!”) or the guy is ridiculed because he should have been able to fend her off. Heck, it’s used for comedy like The Wedding Crashers.

[@sandraelliott4435]

@@animeotaku307 sexual of assault of women has been played for laughs in films too many times to keep Count

[@animeotaku307]

@@sandraelliott4435 True. But it’s still treated seriously more often than when a man is raped.

[@BroeyDeschanel]

This video is incredible - and I'm so glad you talked about I May Destroy You! I haven't stopped thinking about it since I watched it.

[@angeles7155]

I think this movie accomplishes its goal: show the ugly and disheartening reallity. That is why Nina is dead physically and in the memories of almost everyone. She is just a nuisance, a mistake in the life of a man with a bright future, the world around her needs her voiceless. Nina doesn't talk, but her silence means something. As to the ending, the thing that I took from it is that a woman has to be dead to be taken seriously. Watching this made me realize how weird it is that the catharsis part is left to the police, and how unrealistic is that. And why society can clearly identify and feel disgusted by women commiting violence, but not the violence of abuse

[@LolaSebastian]

God. Fantastic video. I'm a survivor of sexual violence and writing a novel adjacent to the rape-revenge genre and whew........ "telling stories is how we fix things" indeed. I'm one of those survivors who finds the violence depicted in these films usually extremely cathartic. I love Pam Grier's canon, The Virgin Spring, Last House on the Left, I Spit on Your Grave, and other rape-revenge films you mentioned. I also want to see this genre continuously rejuvenated and modernized in the future... but I'm frustrated with this kind of Lucretia trend in 2010s media in which women and gay protagonists "allows themselves" to be murdered or commit suicide as a final act of "revenge". To me, this feels even more regressive than straightforward rape-revenge media. It reinforces the status quo, which dictates that survivors have no form of protest except self-harm. It is, as you said, conservative. Brutal. This hit home.

[@Marie-hj6wg]

THANK YOU! I agree with your prespective. I survived childhood sexual abuse so I find the violent taking back of agency in rape-revenge films to be cathartic. I agree that just having the victim die at the end is more regressive than people think, because people forget that rapists usually have multiple victims. It never stops with just one person, there's a cycle of pain that starts with the rapist. Even more than that, we find it acceptable to have violent revenge movies about any other scenario (Taken, Count of Monte Cristo, etc.) but when it comes to women killing their rapists(an act that is extemely traumatic and robs the persons of agency)that's where a lot of people draw the line for some reason. I think it ties into the idea that people believe that all women grieve the same, and these films tends to focus on the mental growth after a traumatic event. I find that regressive because your life DOES NOT end after you're assaulted. It's changed and a part of you is never the same, but it doesn't have to rob you of yourself. I feel like many of these films don't realize that's the message their subtly spreading.

[@fightscrimewhilesleeping4024]

I think you're right in saying PYW feels conservative, because I think its intended audience is somewhat "conservative". It's a film made less to make make survivors of sexual violence feel "good" (catharsis) and more I think made to make everyone else feel "bad", so to speak. I think Cassie never kills anyone because, as you pointed out, the violence against rapists in other "rape revenge" films was something many critics and "conservative" members of the audience found alienating. It might be used as a way to dismiss the film, or make the protagonist "less sympathetic" and thus more easy to dismiss HER point of view, for those that were inclined to do so. The film seems designed to avoid that. I also think that was the intention in a lot of the casting people talk about: casting "likeable" actors that the presumed audience might identify with or see themselves in--your "Nice Guys" your "Aunt Beckies", your "Friendly Sorority Sisters" and other "Upstanding Citizens"--with the intention of sparking self reflection, changes in behavior, and a "are we the baddies?" moment, for this presumed audience made up of people possibly contributing in big or small ways to rape culture. Whether the film was SUCCESSFUL in that--or ANY film or work CAN be successful in that--is, I think, very up for debate. But, for better or worse, for what was gained and for what was lost, that seems to me to be mainly what the film was doing. Still, regardless of what it was maybe trying to do and how "well" it was made in many ways, I think it's undeniable that, on some level, this is yet another example of a movie ABOUT rape that is not really FOR survivors of rape. Does every story about rape need to have survivors as their intended audience? Not necessarily, but it's still worth acknowledging and thinking about why a story like that is made and asking what those stories are doing exactly with the subject, which I think is maybe part of some of the feelings you were touching on in this video.

[@rhiisamirrorball]

I think in a way it is both for survivors and everyone else. This movie validates survivor experiences in which they were victim blamed, not taken seriously, and their lives being destroyed by the court system, especially lawyers. We see Cassie go up against the friend who should have had Nina's back but instead took the side of her rapist. The Dean who chose to protect Nina's rapist over the one who should have been protected, Nina. The lawyer who ruined Nina's reputation and credibility to get his rich client off. We see her go up against the man Cassie started to fall for and who had the dark secret that he participated or just watched as Nina was assaulted and never did anything to help her. Lastly she goes after the rapist himself. While it does that it also; as it does the men in the beginning, forces society to do some self reflection on how it treats the r word and the survivors of these terrible acts. Some people don't realize how ingrained rape culture is in them and to change we have to acknowledge our own biases against victims. I think that Cassie is who stands up for survivors of rape. She is avenging her friend Nina but it feels like she is doing so for any victim as well. Her death in the end is as a martyr for the cause. While rape cases get thrown out and rapists get off, murder is the only thing that the man who raped Nina will actually be put away for. That's the fault of the system that Cassie exploits for her own gain. To me that was a smart ending. While Nina may not get justice for her assault at least her rapist will face some kind of punishment for his actions.

[@RickyDog1989]

I love that you can tackle such a sensitive topic with nuance, without indulging in a long disclaimer introduction that would risk feeling artificial and maybe unauthentic. Even if technically it may not be based on rape, I feel like Kill Bill is part of this genre. When I was a teenager I was obsessed with it, but it is only recently that I observed how it kinda exploits the themes of the rape revenge genre... with great action scenes, but awful representation of the survivor's point of view (among other things).

[@someblaqguy]

So true. I'm not sure why I never saw those parallels until now. 🤔

[@qsm2978]

*whispers* i still think o-ren deserves her own movie

[@someblaqguy]

@@qsm2978 facts

[@natinat1307]

I actually think Promising Young Woman references Kill Bill as much as it does the rape revenge genre (the list, the chapters...). And yeah, I know Kill Bill is problematic in a lot of ways, but it also has its potential. It's always made me feel empowered as a woman, and I tried to research on it a bit for uni and to try and grasp why--the thing is, even if Tarantino's brought many problematic things w him to the film, I think it is powerful enough for us to reclaim it, does it make sense? Anyway, one of the things I read and that FASCINATED me was how often women in rape revenge movies or action in general usually fight with weapons that could be seen as male coded--as in: a katana, a gun... In Kill Bill, actually, I think the katana is repeatedly and explicitly a signifier of the "fallus" (see literally the very first scene in which Bill is presented). And some feminist critics have argued that having a woman being empowered by fallic figures undermines the empowerment somehow because it means they need to become a man to actually be empowered. The thing is, although the final battle scene between the Bride and Bill has some katana action to it, she actually kills him with her own body. What's more, significantly enough it's the most feminine-coded she's been in the whole movie (the clothes and the palette). To me, that's a way to express that she doesn't need to become a man to kill a man--a woman is powerful enough. Actually, she's mastered both styles and she could've killed Bill any other way too, but she chooses to do it in the more feminine way possible, cause if she's taking his abusive misogynistic ass down she's going to do it as a woman. Idk, I'm not saying Tarantino wanted all this, but it's still there and I think that makes the movie complex and fascinating (also, she's killing him with the technique that his master NEVER showed him, a misogynistic master, mind you! And the only person that master has ever found worthy enough to teach them the technique is her, a woman. To me, she's humiliated him in any way possible with that death, and he even has to ask for her permission to die... "how do I look?", it's her now that has the gaze, you know?) Hope this made some sense at least because I did write in a frenzy haha

[@BTDubbz]

As much as I love Promising Young Woman, both from an artistic/symbolic standpoint and because it raises a lot of great ideas when it comes to holding up a mirror to sexually predatory people and showing them just how bad their actions are, I really hate the idea that r*pe ruins your life. Saying that anything ruins your life completely rids you of the possibility to heal. I understand, as a victim myself, saying or feeling that your life has been ruined by this trauma from time to time, but… God damnit! That doesn’t mean you can’t heal! That doesn’t mean that you should throw away the rest of your life! In a way, Cassie let Nina’s r*pist and all the people who helped him off the hook for her r*pe. None of them are punished because of Nina. They’re punished because of Cassie’s murder. Nina never even sees vengeance, justice or catharsis, and that sucks. Honestly, I think Cassie should have released the video online, doxxed all of Nina’s rapists, and then walked away. Let them be publicly shamed. Let them lose their jobs and turn into pariahs, and then heal. Also, more needs to be done for victims BEFORE they kts. The fact that this movie begins after Nina khs and ultimately ends with Cassie effectively khs, both of them turning into these Madonna-esque super women, means that this film ultimately fails both of our heroes, and doesn’t even include one of them except nominally. Nina deserved more than to be the footnote in her best friend’s murder trial. Tl;dr: R*pe doesn’t ruin your life. You always have the chance to heal. Do not throw away your life. You are an amazing person who deserves contentment and health.

[@Flameclaw123]

I understand why some people enjoyed PYW, ending included, but it did leave me feeling disappointed when I watched it. In college I took a class where we watched the film Padmaavat, which culminates in (suicide mention tw) an entire city's worth of women burning themselves alive to avoid being captured and assaulted by an invading army. In the film, it's depicted as a heroic act of defiance and portrayed as feminist in a way, but I remember my professor asking us: why can women only achieve victory in death? Is it really so empowering to show that the strongest thing women can do is to kill themselves? When I watched PYW, I remembered asking myself the same thing. Again, I see why its ending was fine for some or just feels more realistic even if it's less enjoyable. But for me, the idea that women can only win through their deaths/sacrifice just isn't cathartic or empowering. Also, touching on the quote at 23:12 from the interview "What happens after the catharsis? [...] Your life's still ruined" - I get the sentiment behind this statement, and do think it's true in the sense that the trauma doesn't leave just because you got revenge. But it subtly enforces the idea that it's better to die after a traumatic event than to keep living, and that your life is over afterwards, when I think that can be a very dangerous sentiment for assault survivors. The trauma doesn't go away, but that doesn't mean you can't still find things worth living for.

[@auldthymer]

You remind me of a column by Katha Pollitt, "Virginity or Death." She observes the way conservatives prize virginity even at the cost of the living -- abstinence-only education, opposition to birth control and the prevention of STDs. "Faced with a choice between sex and death, they choose death every time."

[@Flameclaw123]

@@auldthymer Thanks for the rec, I'd never read that column before, but I checked it out and wholeheartedly agree

[@ingenuity2217]

Padmaavat also has the added critique of showcasing the purity of the Hindu woman choosing to sacrifice herself instead of being captured by the salacious Muslim invader..(owing to the political significance of Islamophobia in India)

[@Flameclaw123]

@@ingenuity2217 Yeah absolutely, that film is REALLY entrenched in Islamophobia unfortunately

[@morganleanderblake678]

I really hate "well that's just realistic" about the ending. Because what's MORE realistic is that Cassie would have been horribly assaulted within the first five guys she went home with, if not killed outright for making someone feel small. I don't buy "realistic" if she gets to just walk out of dozens of guys' homes but then one dude in cuffs HAS to take her down for the sake of the story?

[@125loopy]

I completely agree! None of this is realistic

[@mcwyman7928]

I think there was a scene (or maybe it was a deleted scene) where she walks into her room with bruises and puts a red tally in her journal, implying that the red tally marks are from encounters that did not go well for her.....

[@morganleanderblake678]

@@mcwyman7928 I did see that too, but like.. I dunno, I find it unrealistic a guy in handcuffs killed her when a literal dozen non cuffed guys didn't.

[@ustupid3934]

@@morganleanderblake678 So? You could have a streak of good luck but that doesn’t mean you’re invincible, all it takes is one fuck up to ruin everything. You’re supposed to have a level of suspension of disbelief in order for a story to work, It’s fiction anyway! it’s not supposed to be realistic. What’s next? Are you going to complain about Batman? Because it’s not realistic for a multimillionaire to be running around in a bat suit arresting criminals? We might as well dig up Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s grave for making up Sherlock Holmes because it’ll be unrealistic for a British man to have arrested that many criminals and not killed by a hit man.

[@ustupid3934]

@@125loopy it’s fiction it isn’t supposed to be realistic...

[@lostlifevids]

Hello, I’m also a survivor and this movie hit me hard. It’s been 12 years since I got away and I’ve seen all the films you mentions but not the show, I was a film student who loved horror horror films. When I first saw the end I was crushed emotionally. But as the ending played out I understood what the movie was doing, at least for me and where I’m at in my healing. I’ve been where Cassie has, I’m sure most survivors have or will. Filled with hate and pain to the point where u lose more than what what u thought u lost. U loose time, years go by within that ball of pain that you can’t get back. I should know, I lost 10. The next step in this self destruction would be that ur lifestyle eventually ruins ur life completely, u do something illegal that gets u arrested, or u end up shortening ur life span because of everything uve been through if not dying an early death. To me, this film is doing what other rape revenge film can’t, even though they’re cathartic. This film is showing you where that pain leads you and puts u in the position to root for Cassie to go another way. If ur also a survivor, u may feel a type of way when u wonder why u can’t root for urself the way u rooted for Cassie. In the end it shows survivors what happens when u dedicate ur life to hate and pain and don’t start the healing process. I know that sounds bad because it sounds like it’s saying stay in our lane, we can’t win. But I think it’s more like go to therapy before u likely loose more than uve already have In this film they choose the death route, probably because it’s the most impactful but the screen writer is right if she had done this and got arrested, that wouldn’t have felt any better for me personally. The film allows people on the outside of this experience to experience what it’s like to lose when Cassie dies. And survivors hopefully can look at themselves and realize their lives are too precious to be spent locked in rooms filled with traumas. This film isn’t saying u need to forgive, forget or anything like that. But moving towards healing and others, I think this film is doing that for sure. But that’s just me. It’s nice to hear a survivor put out a video on this.

[@Otter34]

"This film is showing you where that pain leads you and puts u in the position to root for Cassie to go another way" This read is complicated a little by how often those guys are repeat offenders in the real world, and how "you have to move on" will inevitably be translated to inaction and indifference towards victims. If it's believed that anything happened at all. Everybody knows that killing dozens of people is morally wrong and socially-maladjusted, but revenge stories where guys do that never once work under the illusion that they ought to be PSAs about the unsatisfying and unproductive nature of violence. That only applies to women, for whom acquiring and exercising power through violence is somehow especially wrong.

[@lostlifevids]

@@Otter34 I acknowledge that and I don’t think your wrong because this is true in every part in life. Just look at the woman who kill abusive men and get punished for doing so despite they themselves being the victim. I wrote this comment kind of late so yeah I know it reads a bit off, unfortunately. But due to my own personal journey of being filled with hate and convinced that only justice or revenge could ever make things right; I saw this film as a message to survivors to not let ur experience kill u or whatever is left of u. Which could look like entering therapy and becoming an activist, which many do. Not allowing the event(s) to end ur life, whether that’s literally or in its quality should be the goal for any survivor of anything not just rape. That doesn’t mean u have to just accept it as right or not fight for ur justice or the justice of others. I respect the videos opinions on why she felt it didn’t work. I feel that may be valid for many survivors but for me 12 years after the fact and 2 years into recovery, I didn’t need fantasy, I needed reality. To show me that I can’t keep destroying myself and my relationships not because I have to get over it. But, because I deserve better. Nothings going to stop my abuser living his life unless I wanna take it in my own hands and effectively end my life. He’s not worth my life and it took me a long time to see that. In the end different survivors are all valid in their response. We are all on different healing journeys and in different parts of it. This film may have been more conservative compared to other films, but I do think the conversations had in this film vs many other rape revenge films I’ve seen far surpasses those. Because while those films rely on visceral depictions of rape to get the message across, this film decides to have conversations instead. Which I feel is way more impactful and is less likely to get lost in translation or within its own subjectivity. I wanna point to Jessica Jones the Netflix show, people don’t see it as rape revenge but it sort of ends up being so given our superhero was a victim and spoilers…. If u haven’t watch it u can just ignore this part of my comment. She ends up taking her abusers life at the end. For me that moment was empty as soon as it was over and it was in the way the actresses played it. This didn’t help her feel better, it’s only an extension of the victimization the abuser already put on her. Many would call the ending not so satisfying because of this. But I also liked this ending because it showed that this was an ongoing battle towards recovery for Jessica. Something that tv and movies often fail to acknowledge. Just because u won, or ended ur very special episode doesn’t mean the effects of assault aren’t still ongoing. I do think this show does the realistic ending emotionally and gives us the superhero ending physically and it leaves the right tone.

[@emclaire7027]

@@lostlifevids I love your point about Jessica Jones. I think it’s really overlooked as a depiction of post-abuse trauma.

[@lostlifevids]

@@emclaire7027 yes in my opinion it’s one of the best and it’s critical acclaim is when we started seeing a trend of people at least trying to be accurate about what it’s really like to survive sexual trauma, how horrible it is and that it’s everyday, not just a few days after the event. To me that was only made stronger by the fact that she killed killgrave and yet she can’t even see her self as a hero or even a good person. She is still struggling to get to the woman she used to be pre killgrave and it’s interesting because she must do so with all of who she is now. Same as how we often struggle with pre assault vs, post assault selves. Jessica Jones was definitely one of the few times I saw myself so strongly in a main character.

[@t3tsuyaguy1]

I can say this about being a man who has found catharsis from rape revenge films. My mother was raped while I slept in the other room. I didn't know about it for years. My mother did get justice. The cops did their job and investigated. He was charged and convicted. Somehow that justice felt incomplete. I very much felt a sense that something brutal and horrible should have happened to him for what he did. I have examined this in therapy and had the chance to talk with my mother about it, because she watched a specific rape revenge movie with me and had a lot to say about it. For her, she found it cathartic, but she also said that in real life she found that thoughts of vengeance just tormented her, if she dwelled on them. Part of it was simply not believing that she would ever actually be able to exact physical revenge on her rapist, due to his size and strength. Part of it was not wanting to leave me without a parent when she was inevitably punished. But part of it was feeling like the rage and anger was part of the violation itself. She said she felt like buying into it and nurturing it just maintained his power over her. Ultimately, she forgave him. This experience of hers factors heavily in my understanding of forgiveness and who it is for. She would never have agreed to socialize with him in any way, and she would never regret for a minute the sentencing he received. None of that is the point. Forgiving him didn't say it was ok. In fact, she said it's just the opposite. To forgive him, she first had to see clearly that what happened was completely his fault and responsibility. To forgive him, she had to truly internalize that she was not in any way responsible for what happened to her. It was he and he alone who bore the blame for what he did. Doing that allowed her fear to shift to pity, and most importantly let her move forward. She got to truly leave him behind so that he had no power over her. Needless to say, this is one of the most powerful memories I have of my mother. In that conversation she also talked to me about how I experienced the film. For me it was cathartic as well, because I very much had been nurturing my rage. I very much fantasized about one day making him pay, to the extent I believed he deserved. Some of this was about me and believing that I somehow should have been able to stop it. I was there after all. I was also 10. There is truly nothing I could have done. Part of it was something else though. Some part of me wanted what I did to him to be so brutal and so public that it would send a message to all would be rapists. There is this delusion inside of my rage that I could somehow do something so 'scorched earth' to this man that no one ever dare to rape anyone ever again. I have come to believe that this is part of the messaging we receive as men, that we are responsible to stamp out the actions of 'bad men'. We are taught to measure our goodness by how violent we are willing to be, in the service of stamping out badness. I think what's missing in all those feelings is a sincere concern and understanding for the victim. There is a disinterest in those emotions, regarding why any ever rapes, and what effect it really has. There is just the simple headed notion that violence creates fear and fear creates inaction, so If I can be violent ENOUGH, then rape won't happen anymore. Somehow, that will make up for me not being able to stop what happened to my mother.

[@LadyScaper]

I know this is years later, but thank you so much for this comment.

[@t3tsuyaguy1]

@@LadyScaper 😊

[@LarrySonOfMilton]

this changed me. thank you.

[@t3tsuyaguy1]

@@LarrySonOfMilton 😊

[@musical-chick-134]

Ugh, okay, I know I already left a long-ass comment, but the phrase "What happens after the catharsis; your life's still ruined" absolutely ENRAGES me. Like...I know what she's TRYING to say, but...the idea that after trauma your life will just be completely broken forever and there is NOTHING that will make it significantly better sits VERY badly with me. I'm sure she probably meant something along the lines of "There isn't One Action you can take that will magically make your grief or trauma go away, healing is a process" but the way she worded it was. *Bad.*

[@banxeescreems3337]

That! Exactly! How is that a feminist take? Wtf? May as well say rape survivors are incapable of healing. That was such a thoughtlessly shitty and callous thing to say.

[@TheVolginator]

I read it as after the revenge your life doesn’t improve because of it? Maybe? Lol. I mean if you commit a murder in the name of revenge, you’re probably looking at life in prison, and that’d probably ruin my life

[@kmorris2918]

Can't help but feel like the meta view is, it's another murdered woman onscreen, bonus cuz she kilt dewds, double bonus she literally did it to herself. and I'm not sure how any intention can redeem it from that surface read. just seems like quantum "woman centered" fridging, and like the whole point was to turn what looked like a rape revenge film into a surprise cautionary tale against women who don't move on in an acceptable manner.

[@irkallan]

I had the same exact thought. If life couldn't be salvaged, lived, and enjoyed after assault, we...probably wouldn't have society.

[@mophead_xu]

kinda just want ... a rape-revenge story where in the end the protag achieved everything like the rapist(s) is dead and all, and maybe have a brief second of a "now what" moment-just to drive the point home even more-before going and just resume their lives. continue the interest/career/what have you that was momentarily put off due to this big fucking thing happening. just let them go on and live their lives. the revenge was fulfilled; it was a success; no longer a victim nor a vigilante-just a person picking up bike salvaging/building and stitching, lol.

[@PaperMario64]

I’m a survivor of sa. I loved the film and ending. It was realistic. Even in my early teens, I knew that I would be labeled negatively as a black female and my attacker would be protected because he’s a black male. I think 20s me would’ve wanted more revenge. But this version of me is jaded and sees the bigger, crappier picture.

[@emclaire7027]

I saw you talk about this on Twitter and have been waiting for it! Excellent, nuanced video. I personally have grown to love PYW, but I did go into it expecting a more classic rape revenge film and was honestly crushed by the ending the first time. I thought about it for weeks, that awful moment when I realized Cassie wasn’t going to wake up. But the second time I watched it when I knew what I was going into, I found more satisfaction in it because I understood it more. In my opinion, Promising Young Woman is not a film for survivors, it’s a film for a more general audience to make them confront the ways they are complicit in rape culture. And I think that’s really where it’s place is. I also personally liked the choice to not show Nina at all because to me, that made her feel like she could be someone you know in your life. I understand the problems with that, but as a woman who has not experienced sexual assault but knows many other women who are very dear to me who have, Nina felt like the stand-in for them. That’s part of the point of the scene with the Dean, it’s not personal until it happens to someone you love. I related deeply to Cassie’s rage and grief that a person she loved had been taken from her, and had been subjected to such a horrible act. I also could feel how her pain ultimately destroyed her, and while it was devastating, I personally found it kind of cathartic in its own way that there’s this huge grief that she just cannot get over, and it consuming her really legitimized that it is such a huge deal. There’s a sort of comfort in seeing it acknowledged that sometimes pain is so great it does destroy you. I love a lot of things about the film and I think that it did do a lot of things right when it came to depicting rape culture and the systems in place that perpetuate it, but I hadn’t thought about your point about how that in the end is kind of negated by leaving justice up to the police, and I think that’s a really good point. Ultimately I do love the movie for what it is, but I can absolutely understand why for a lot of people, especially survivors, it’s not what they wanted. I hope that it’s acclaim and success will maybe inspire another sort of version of the movie, keeping aspects like centering the female voice, but with more catharsis (preferably violently cause that is uniquely satisfying). Thank you for the video, it’s given me lots to think about 💙

[@stevenvo1999]

Jennifer Kent's The Nightingale (2018/2019) is an interesting film that should be discussed in this complicated topic. For all the non-Australian viewers, you might need a brief lesson on the British colonialism of Australia before watching. I loved Promising Young Woman, but the nuanced criticisms on the ending, and the harshness of the women's punishments compared to the men, are absolutely valid and understandable. I do think switching Alfred Molina and Connie Britton's roles is a potential solution, but I don't know.

[@komal146]

That movie depicts the violence and rapes so gracefully. Shows the animalistic and gross nature of rape and the rapist while not tantalizing it or taking the focus away from the survivor.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

Yeah, as far as I remember that film delt with assault respectfully, its failings came with the native aspect

[@TheVolginator]

Talking about bad endings, The Nightingale is way up there

[@ilanag6096]

I'm so glad you made a video about this. This movie it HAUNTS me. The ending isn't cathartic, it just means the tragedy of Nina's rape stole Cassie's life too. The smothering scene was so brutal. I feel you on every one of these points. Ironically I wanted catharsis after watching this devastating movie, and your unpacking gave that

[@tatihc]

The title "I May Destroy You" is a warning about the show, it wrecks you so much. But it's SO PERFECT, and as a survivor, I thought it was the most cathartic example.

[@ronjajonasson3691]

Honestly, imo that scene with the lawyer who had been crushed by guilt for years and completely repented was way more unrealistic than her killing the men would have been. I have never seen any equivalent to that character in real life. If you're in so deep that you cover up shady sex crimes, you're not just going to have a sudden change of heart and become nice due to some unspecified reason. The movies trust in institutions really put me off it, and while I do appreciate the perspectives in the comments on how this movie might highlight the unfairness of sexual assault for people who aren't aware, I still think it could have done a better job at that if it didn't have that blind loyalty to the system. Granted, I say this as someone who has only been subjected to minor sexual assault, so there might be perspectives I'm missing.

[@rhiisamirrorball]

I don't think there is any loyalty to the system at all though. The movie actually puts the system through the ringer like it deserves. It's not unrealistic that the lawyer could have been so wrapped up in doing his job that he lost himself and his empathy. This movie likes to humanize the people who are considered monsters. That's because no matter how good a person someone may seem they could have a dark side. That dark side isn't always very easy to spot. I know I have considered the actions of some lawyers monstrous. In reality though lawyers are still people. When you lose that motivation you once had to win any case however you can, you can start to self reflect on all the wrongs you did. You can lose yourself in your work and stop looking at people as human beings. The lawyer states that he started to have nightmares of all the victims he victimized again on the stand. It wasn't a quick thing. It took him years to realize the damage his actions as a lawyer caused to young women like Nina. He was the last person we expected to have any guilt but that actually makes sense. The school system and its rape culture is pointed out and ridiculed so that system is not pointed in a good light. Even the judicial system besides the lawyer is not painted in a good light. It isn't till Cassie is murdered that there is any real justice. Even then we can assume that Nina's assault will never have justice. The only reason the cops are involved at the end is because they are forced to take action. Police didn`t do anything when Nina was raped and probably would claim that it happened to long ago to make any charges, even with the video. The only way for Nina's rapist to have legal punishment was for him to be convicted of murder. In this case Cassie's. There is no loyalty to the system. The movie criticizes every part of it that contributes to rape culture and the injustice rape victums and survivors face.

[@SingingSealRiana]

people change, he was not ment to be the rule, but the exception n 2 ways at the same time. It is not that unusual to later regret stuff you formerly excused. It is not as much unrealistic, as chosing the one person who actualy does what she wants of them, show true remorse and remember nina, where it would be the most impactful and least expected.

[@Ladyknightthebrave]

Fuck yeah it's up! I can't wait to watch it💜

[@mandalevelsup]

I love PYW because I found catharsis in people being pushed to acknowledge their predation and systemic failure. And I also think there's something to the fact that the end catharsis is not for assault victims but for people who are genuinely ashamed to have failed them (us). That said... It's perfectly understandable if this ending was Not It for you. It's also perfectly understandable if you don't want that catharsis offered to people who harmed or failed you.

[@thevirtualtraveler]

I sobbed at the ending, which shocked the hell out of me because I had watched several critiques before hand and the ending had been thoroughly spoiled. But it wasn't cathartic crying, rather it was sadness that this WAS such a wish fulfillment fantasy. I was suddenly overwhelmed with all the REAL women who have suffered at the hand of brutal men and never receive any justice whatsoever.

[@CheesecakeMilitia]

I immediately read the ending of Promising Young Woman as a dream: a too-good-too-be-true poetic justice fantasy along similar lines as Parasite's ending sequence. I May Destroy You also employs a dreamlike ending, but I'm not sure it's any more cathartic than PYW. They both have this unresolved grief that shows some amount of powerlessness to the status quo. There's no changing the white af framing of the film though - even if you cut the police from the ending.

[@ElectroSocketBlues]

I think there's a key difference though: the ending fantasy of Parasite is explicitly non-diagetic, where the ending of Promising Young Woman *is* diagetic. If the text explicitly showed the post-mortem note and the role of the police as a fantasy *of the character* I think it would be a lot more defensible as horror.

[@rachelbruno3098]

You hit the nail on the head with it coming from a place of privilege. It kind of gives "change my profile picture to a black square." Or the same type of vibe as 13 Reasons Why. It definitely feels slightly sanitized. I couldn't articulate it before I watched this video but I totally agree with your points.

[@AustinPSmith96]

I May Destroy You was the most understood I ever felt as a survivor by a piece of media. I'm not embellishing when I say that I felt lighter after the finale. It helped me sort out my own complex relationship to what happened to me. I felt like I could connect and forgive parts of myself that I'd been avoiding, and truly internalize that what happened to me wasn't a result of some flaw on my part.

[@SoWhosGae]

While watching it I started feeling uncomfortable because when the threesome lie thing and the condom guy stories came up I recognized something familiar in their premise, something that happened to me not long ago and I started crying because omg it was really abuse, abuse of trust so that he could abuse my body, like ... I had never thought of it that way. I always thought that I had given consent like Arabella and her friend did, then why did I feel abused? It's all so unclear to me to this day tbh, I cannot even express it with words because I haven't even analized it with myself. Can you really give consent when someone deceives you even if no physical or psychological violence was used?

[@AustinPSmith96]

@@SoWhosGae Maybe our exploration of what happened, why we felt the way we did, and then the choices we make regarding how we define it for ourselves or explain it to others if we choose, maybe those are the little ways we get some of the control back. I don't know, but I personally found a lot of power in being able to name things for what they were, and also choosing what to name them instead of having others tell me what did or didn't happen to ME. All that said, I'm very sorry that this was also relatable to you, and I'm wishing you healing.

[@choosecarefully408]

@@SoWhosGae It's hard to find healing in our 'blame the victim' society. Additionally, your internal confusion comes from so many directions. This may help you sort some of it out, but it's only an attempt. I can only speak in general terms. When a 4-year-old child's parents are being unreasonable, what can the child do? So children that age eventually accept it & forget it. This reaction is _subconscious._ It *is 100% a **_reaction._* The child doesn't _plan to_ acquiesce. It does so without conscious thought. The part of our brains that seeks to reconcile What Is Happening is subconscious (SC). It is _trying to reconcile_ the experience in a way that doesn't cause it feel the trauma. & sometimes, there is no way to _do_ so. So you feel constant impulses of it trying this over & over. These impulses come from inside yourself. The SC is doesn't think. It only reacts. I imagine mine like the most obnoxious character on any sitcom that you wish would just shut up as nothing they say is ever useful. If you can locate where inside you that voice is coming from, you _CAN_ shut it up at least for short periods of time. & *then* you can sort out all the conflicting impulses. It's the _SC_ that's trying to tell you you consented because the _SC_ is MORE uncomfortable with the reality of the assault. That isn't convincing, but you also haven't accepted anything _else_ in place of what it doesn't want to acknowledge. So this internal confusion _is_ internal, & you *can learn* to recognize it, perhaps 'locate' where it's coming from, & shut it our for periods of time through conscious effort. & _that_ can leave you free to experience this without the attached trauma & hopefully figure out just _what_ *you feel* about it all without going into panic each time. This is hard to put into words, but hopefully it helps.

[@janine7384]

One of my biggest problems with PYW is in the end the punishment of the men is more important than Cassie's or Nina's lives. The triumphant music at the end scene is meant to make us feel like Cassie won, but it left me feeling like I wish she had decided her healing was more important than getting vengeance against them. It's a tragedy that tries to play pop music to trick you into thinking it's triumphant and that deeply bothered me.

[@SillyNep]

Wow, I somehow overlooked the fact that in the end the trust was put on the police aka an institution. I kinda just saw it as her biting back post mortem or something. I guess I was so used to police action being a given in media and stuff I overlooked that somehow, probably also my own privelage of not really being in contact with police negatively or positively irl. (Doesn't make much sense either cause the film itself was critiquing the institutions before hand yet it still slipped my mind?) This is why I love watching these videos, they make me see things I overlooked or didn't know about! Greatly made.

[@kkok9666]

She did intend to punish Al herself though. Her initial plan, as far as we see, was to carve Nina's name into him; we don't know whether she would have gone to the police as well, had she survived. So maybe she would not have included them unless as a last resort, as she did, and without making absolutely sure Al would end up in jail. Also, when Al is taken away, it's by a female officer, and the camera stays on her long enough to indicate it's important that it's her who's taking him away, so maybe the movie's telling us that this time round a woman's gonna make sure another dead woman gets justice? (It's also a woman who finds Cassie's burned body.) Not disagreeing or anything, just wanted to point this out as a possible way of interpreting things.

[@myahill7475]

The lawyer helped too… remember

[@SillyNep]

@@myahill7475 Lawyer is part of the institutions isnt he tho? he was the one who originally made it so the case didnt go further if I recall. (idk if im wording it correctly, but there was a reason he was feeling all depressed and guilty in the movie and why she came to him)

[@myahill7475]

@@SillyNep yeah, I was saying the lawyer helped bring down the rapist and killer.

[@SillyNep]

@@myahill7475 yeah and so did the police in this situation? Didn't they?

[@Cannotbetamed1]

The marketing of this movie was so misleading. My problem with the ending is… why choose to be realistic right at the end?She’s entrapped dozens of men in order to show them that they’re not actually good guys and has never been hurt or endangered in the process… we’re already in fantasyland here. Just let us see her cut up some dudes.

[@bannedmann4469]

Good point. My guess is that she wanted to subvert expectations. As is the popular thing to do amongst people of a certain political persuasion.

[@Frugustin]

But after the murder the movie switches back to fantasy revenge. The dude bros, one of whome already skipped rape charges, decide, that despite them clearly having ability to frame it as they want it to police, it would be better if they commit another straight up felony to further incriminate themselves. And turns out she also planned for such outcome too, as she gleefully sends dms to Bo's phone with point precision accuracy because somehow she knew that this is exactly what they would do and laywer would not skip a beat. It's really contrived and rushed. Trying to have the cake and eat it too.

[@proudbibliophile]

The minute she added actual violence to her revenge is when it changed. It is realistic that in a violent situation, she would lose and be killed.

[@myahill7475]

Well, if it was done that way the movie would not have won the Oscar. The movie won because of the unexpected and clever writing.

[@sanna9062]

I'm pretty sure the marketing was misleading on a purpose

[@mariedit9935]

I was okay with the ending of Promising Young Woman but I don't blame you for disliking it, it does make me angry

[@thasthar]

Same for me

[@ForeignManinaForeignLand]

This movie left me so frustrated 😮‍💨 and I could never explain it so I’m glad you did for me

[@andrecross7998]

Hahaha, my first patreon squad comment! The braids are everything, its giving vampire babysitter! Love as always

[@Princess_Weekes]

Yay! Thank you!

[@AJ-cq5pw]

Interesting I felt the reason why we never see Nina was meant to represent how everyone else from the college they went to had also forgotten about her and only cared about her rapist. Everyone remembered him and admired him and even the guidance counselor didn't even remember Nina. So that aspect didn't bother me personally. I also felt it was an interesting diversion from most rape-revenge stories because it showed how a tragedy like that also affects the people around you and that they too can be just as outraged. Like I really liked that Cassie was so enraged and upset about what happened to her friend that she just couldn't let it go, like it's sad but I really related to that. And also, this is just a theory, but I think the reason why Cassie goes so hard against the women in the film was probably a choice made by the director to not be seen as just attacking men. I mean male critics already felt the director was a man hater for even daring to write a film like this. That part always felt like a "women are complicit too" kind of thing, which on some level is true but also felt like it was pandering to the "not all men" audience. As far as the ending goes, I have extremely mixed feelings about it. I also don't think it's fully the directors fault, the film was meant to end with her dying, not with the police coming in and saving the day.

[@fairy5668]

This video is great but the ending with the police made sense to me because it showed that law enforcement would only care about a woman when she's dead. The point was that the police would have failed if Nina or Carrie had tried to press charges for rape, so it took a woman being murdered for the police to actually do something. That was the main thing I thought about after I watched the film and the murder scene is supposed to hurt you. I actually would have liked Fennell's original ending where the texts weren't sent out and the film ends with her corpse being burnt because it would have been more jarring and realistic, but the producers didn't like that ending because it was too sad or smth

[@tinymxnticore]

My Dad loved the Promising Young Woman trailer, especially the quote where she asks "Can you guess what every woman's worst nightmare is?" He loved the premise and was excited to see Carey Mulligan kill some dudes. When I told him she doesn't murder anyone he asked, "What's the point?"

[@lunalalua1593]

Your dad seems to know how to write a r*pe-revenge story. I agree with him!

[@stewartsmalls2024]

Law & Order Special Victims Unit should be discussed when looking at the police and the institution in the rape/revenge genre. The series has been running for 23 seasons and is still on the air as of 2021. The, arguably, main character Detective Olivia Benson was a victim of rape and is now a police officer investigating and helping prosecute rapists, pedophiles, etc. The series follows the cops not only thru the investigation but also into the court itself. Some episodes leave on a cliffhanger with no verdict, no catharsis as to whether or not the system worked. Others have clear successes and failures. Sometimes victims have exacted their own revenge. Later in the series stories run across several episodes. During one of these runs the character, Detective Benson, goes thru a rape/revenge scenario where she herself is victimized and must try to escape and decide if revenge is possible thru the system or if she has to kill her attacker.

[@andrewcapra7153]

SVU also wrote an episode where the team intentionally sends a trans woman to be gangraped and murdered in an all-men prison, and when the prosecutor briefly is like "Maybe doing that was a bad thing?" Benson reassures her that it was the right thing to do and that she did her job well and they never mention or feel guilty about it again.

[@stewartsmalls2024]

@@andrewcapra7153 Exactly my point. Art imitates life and its imperfections. Trans hate inside of prison is a different story. There may be a rape/revenge fantasy from that story. But SVU has a vast library to look at. Edited because I was misremembering an episode of Blue Bloods not L&O, SVU.

[@choosecarefully408]

I think that among other oxymorons, we need to rid ourselves of the notion of a "Justice _SYSTEM."_ There are no moving parts, no pulleys levers or cogs in wheels to blame when 'the system' fails. It's run by people. But when we enter into any court proceeding, we go in with expectations of a _system._ There *ain't* no "system." Just people.

[@CommanderLexaa]

@@stewartsmalls2024 as a r*pe victim I fucking hate that show. It has a few good episodes, but most of it is shocking for the sake of shock and "realism" instead of actually educating. I can't stand it and I've watched it cus of my mom since it came out.

[@bnhalemon7098]

SVU, Blue Bloods, and all other cop shows are just pure pro cop propaganda, and I have never hated the rape revenge tale more than when one of those shows does it

[@Tthomasia1]

What really irked me about this film was the idea that she could just walk away from potential rapists just by calling out their intentions and revealing she was sober. It suggested that there is only an unbalanced power dynamic if the victim is drunk and that if you simply tell the rapist off you’ll be free and safe to walk away. Ridiculous. Also her actions did nothing to prevent those men from just going out and attacking someone else, so what was her objective?? What was the point?

[@bucharestangst3745]

I agree also the director said that she plans very well but her friend's rapist is in town and it's a complete surprise. Where was all that planning?

[@dejajade6726]

Her objective was to make these supposed nice guys see that they aren't the actual good people they think they are. Actually, that's what she does with everyone in the movie. They're not pure evil villains scheming in dark corners waiting to pounce on unsuspecting women, they are "regular" people who are (sometimes) unaware how they vastly contribute to or are complicit in rape culture. And yes, while her actions may not stop them from committing further sexual assault or suddenly gaining a conscious and no longer standing by while it happens, she does hold a mirror up to them and shows them the ugly truth that they can't deny.

[@dejajade6726]

@@bucharestangst3745 She knew Al was in Europe but not that he came back. It's not like she was following his every move. While she has been obsessing over the incident for years, it was more of a personal, internal thing with a destructive outlet, rather than some serial killer type planning years in the making.

[@bucharestangst3745]

@@dejajade6726 the fact that you have to read into it says it all about bad directing. ;) I'm saying this from the perspective of a film school graduate from Europe where everybody incorporates symbolism and hidden meanings in their film :D. Its just bad planning nobody has to justify it.

[@dejajade6726]

@@bucharestangst3745 Read into it? That's a plain fact of the movie. She genuinely didn't know he came back. She hadn't been keeping track of any of the people involved in the incident until Ryan mentioned Al and THEN she starts planning to take all of them down. This not a point of contention I've ever heard anyone mention. And good for you for being a film graduate from Europe. I also say this from the perspective of a film student who just discussed this movie with my professor yesterday in extreme detail. So... what's up bestie?

[@sweetchocolatesecret]

I like PYW but I think me viewing it from a non survivor's perspective made me not truly see the flaws in the ending. Thank you so much for your perspective!

[@candyDREAMER]

I love how timely this is. I was introduced to I Spit On Your Grave from a man I was dating from a developing country, who during his childhood his oldest sister was raped and murdered by the authorities. I knew what the film was about but had successfully avoided it up to this point. By the end of the film I was left empty and he was adamant on how satisfactory her revenge was...I challenged back, "that's not even the same woman." She still has to live with her trauma, her attackers got off easy comparatively. Gone was the innocent, naive woman who felt an isolated cabin retreat in the middle of nowhere would be therapeutic. But I don't see how you come back from that going to that dark place to get her revenge...and maybe that's the point to: you don't truly come back from the violation of rape. 💔 Yes I'm for all things that empower women-- The Descent will forever be a film that proves every woman has a hidden Buffy, warrior goddess in her 💪🏾. But, when it comes to rape revenge, yes catharsis is NECESSARY, and so subjective, that I doubt one film will be the model for all survivors. TY.

[@TheSaltyLibrarian]

"Murder is more serious when a white woman is involved" y'know if the movie had been cognizant of that and actually interrogated how the white patriarchy acts to uphold itself in the name of "protecting women" THAT would have been truly shocking and provocative

[@camdenhunt7565]

well a white woman did write it so i feel like we’re reaching for the stars there but but yes it would have been so much better if idk even Nina had been brown to really drive the point home?🤷🏾‍♀️

[@bannedmann4469]

Nah, good old fashioned pussy pass.

[@RGBEAT]

We’ll it might have been better

[@RED-my9hl]

@@camdenhunt7565 it wouldnt have been better lmao cuz this isnt about race

[@StinkyDinky_]

i thought the end was more a rug pull than anything to make a statement. it said to me "there will be no catharsis, you will always feel this sick, until something changes" but maybe im just making my own meaning.

[@hnh45467]

i read it as that as well. I thought it was suppose to represent how the system damages all women in relation.

[@Bpaynee]

I had a very different response to the movie, which I felt I could relate to very strongly in comparison to the revenge fantasy which I honestly dislike quite a bit. Maybe it's because being a kind, pacifistic and diplomatic person has always been a huge part of my identity, but I hated that I actually often felt like people assumed that if I didn't want to go on a revenge rampage that my experience either wasn't that bad or that I wasn't having the response a 'strong woman' should have. In my mind, my assailants already took away enough from me, I will not let them take away the person I am. To me, this movie was in part a warning against the danger of centering your identity around a traumatic experience outside of your control. Don't get me wrong, it goes without saying that an experience like that has a huge impact and it has taken a lot of time for me to incorporate that experience into my life and it's an ongoing process. But at least where I'm at right now, I see the idea that this one night in my life should overshadow everything else in my life, as an extension of only valuing me and other women for our sexuality (I'll address everyone and not just women in a minute). Before Nina was reduced to the idea of a victim in this movie, she was a "Promising Young Woman" with a whole life. Although Cassie hadn't been able to integrate the experience into her whole life (hiding what she was doing from her parents, or how it had affected her from Laverne Cox's character, probably because of fear of their reactions, or maybe I'm just projecting, haha), I think Cassie was initially having a sort of constructive reaction by entrapping would-be predators and making them confront their actions which they certainly were justifying to themselves, and hopefully slowly changing the culture. I think she lost hope in society though when the truth of Bo Burnham's character came out and she realized she'd never be able to do enough and opted for destruction instead and had what, at least for me as a smaller person, would have been a very likely outcome of turning to physical conflict, which is becoming a victim of it herself. I understood the involvement of police a bit differently as well. One of the things I've learned since my experience is that some things may be illegal on paper, or we say society disapproves of something, but what is more important is 'what' is enforced and against 'who.' Is sexual assault really illegal? I can think of plenty of examples that make me question that. And although I'm sure the audience here isn't the victim blaming type and generally believes someone who speaks up, many people would much prefer to explain away assault because 'boys' or 'alcohol' or 'guys can't get raped' until the only kind that everyone recognizes is a woman getting raped in an alley by a stranger (preferably by someone who makes a convenient monster). I understood the police only getting involved at the very end after two people had died as a condemnation of how far things have to go before the system actually does anything (and she even delivered all their evidence) or the people around her take what happened to Nina seriously. I guess long story short is I never felt I got a ton out of the 'fantasy' response because it doesn't help me work through what to do to go forward, and in a way can actually buy into the violent framing of achieving what you want that my assailants had. I understand the response isn't for everything, but I do think Promising Young Woman works as 'a' conversation in movie form that survivors should have amongst ourselves about how you to continue with your life in the real world after an experience like that. That said, the complexity of the experiences and responses portrayed in I May Destroy You are a whole nother level.

[@Melissa-tw2gp]

Really enjoyed this video. Helped clarify my thoughts about this movie which definitely left me feeling conflicted when I first saw it. Also, nice Jason Todd art! Would love a video from you about Jason, the Robins, or Batfam in general.

[@gothiccfurby]

These were my exact thoughts about the “realism” of her death, yes it’s more realistic for a woman overcome with grief and outnumbered by men to not get out of that situation. But I didn’t watch the movie for realism, the news is full of real stories of women being brutalized by men and our patriarchal society. I watched the movie for catharsis, for the fantasy of revenge that I can’t experience in real life. I don’t see why men get to direct bloody rape-revenge films that glorify the acts they claim to condemn, but women have to be ✨realistic✨It’s just frustrating.

[@musical-chick-134]

THIS. I've been struggling to put my sour feelings toward her in-movie death into words, and this is exactly it!

[@animeotaku307]

If you want a female-directed film that goes the gory revenge route, check out Revenge.

[@katszulga1888]

As soon as you said "rape revenge" story, and especially when you said she dies at the end I was thinking about Tess D'Urbervilles. That was my first r-r story, and while I found the end really unsatisfying and frankly, gross (seriously, f*** Angel, and what was that about giving him your sister?! Don't do that to your poor sister!!) at least Tess gets to fully murder Alec. The pool of blood seeping through the floor and dripping from the ceiling below was such a great image. There are definitely problems with Tess (the director of the most famous film adaptation just compounding them) but I thought Thomas Hardy did a really good job of capturing a woman with earthy, working class practicality wedded with a dreamy, idealistic, hoping, romantic aspirations. I love that both pulls on her character cause her to just do the most unexpected things, going back to Alec because of the first trait, then straight up murdering him because of her irrepressible hopes. I first read it as a teenager, and it's still got such a soft place in my heart, and I will forever be wishing Tess Durbeyfield and her little baby Sorrow that island paradise where they could just live without all the expectations of a hypocritical society.

[@lolly9804]

I get Greek tragedy vibes from the movie. Like it almost felt like destiny intervening when she learned about the video. And that there is an imaginary ending where in she finds some happyness with her secretly kinda shitty boyfriend. But of course like a tragedy of old, there wasn't going to be a happy ending. Since even if she took revenge, she would have been taken to jail in the end credits instead.

[@jonathanneal1319]

CW: Suicidal Ideation I think the movie is more about grief than is a rape-revenge fantasy. Cassie flirts often with self-harm throughout the film, going into houses of men who could really harm her. This want only exponentiates when Ryan is proven to be harmful as well. She is so stricken by Nina's death that she wanted harm to come to her. I agree with all the points about Cassie knowing about her own potential demise at the bachelor party. She knew the probability of her surviving was low, which is why she did throw away the license plate and scheduled those texts, as was said. Things could gave gone differently. But, she was prepared to be harmed and really wanted to, a form of suicidal ideation. The "diameter of the bomb" of grief goes beyond just the victim. Even the movie establishes retribution truly comes only through the lense of patriarchy; Cassie can only receive absolution through the justice system that failed Nina before, through a male lawyer (which truly doesn't matter since the justice system skews towards men anyway). And it does so at the expense of two women, both Cassie and Nina, which strikes me as a "the testimonies of two women are equal that of one man" kind of way. I agree, the victim should be centralized more often (and yes, "I May Destroy You" excels in that category), but I appreciate what this film does present.

[@littlelila7396]

You do make a lot of great points. Personally, i cant speak from a survivers perspective. For me and the friend i watched it with it was certainly no catharsis, but a deliberate sort of ripping open of a wound we didnt deal with like this before. It forces you to rethink your position in this world, about power dynamics even between priviliged white women. I did think it was good to show other women upholding the system enforced on us, and it made sense in the context of the film why cassie went as hard on them as she did. I also believe leaving Nina, the actual victim unseen, was an interesting choice. We see how her absence haunts cassies every waking moment, sort of like her absence leaves us as the audience feeling strangely disconnected. Its not a movie about the victim, but the system around Nina that continues without her and the effects on the people she left behind that still deal with this reality. The fact that they never show the actual asault happening is also really well done in my opinion, as those scenes are what often transforms rape revenge into a sort of torture porn in my opinion. Again, some victims might feel different, but i cant imagine what someone with trauma might feel seeing these violent scenes just to hopefully get a catharsis through violence against the attacker in the end of a film. Maybe the problem with the movie is moreso that it doesnt actually qualify as a rape revenge film, but a film dealing with the grief caused by sexual violence and injustice. Cassie is trying to fight a system larger than life all by herself in the only way she can think of, consumed by her anger and resentment of the people who hurt Nina in different ways. Her whole life is meaningless without Nina or her anger, so even though the ending was a shock for sure, it did make sense why it happened the way it did. Cassie had no purpose left, nothing to return to or strive towards after her revenge. Going about it through criminal law enforcement might not be as successful as cassie or the audience are hoping to believe, but i dont think her goal was necessarily imprisonment of the abuser and moreso ruining his life at the present moment, mainly his wedding and career. All in all i do agree that we didnt get catharsis, but a wake up call. There are still women who have been fortunate to not suffer under rape culture and the patriarchy directly and live in a sort of ignorant bliss (in my personal experience), actively contributing to victim blaming and the likes. I do think this mindset could be at least questioned by a movie like this. Also i know a number of men i would really like to show this movie to, the kind of men that really do mean well but remain ignorant to the world around them because "they would never do stuff like that, so others surely wont either". I think seeing the grim reality for themselves would really help here. So yes, i agree its not a great rape revenge catharsis film, but rather an eye opener for people fortunate enough to not have fallen victim themselves or come into contact with the horror of sexual asault in their social circle. I do wonder if this movie would have been less controversial regarding its ending if the marketing would have been different. I hope i was able to articulate my thoughts properly, it is 4 in the morning where i live and i should really sleep, and english is not my first language, so i hope you can excuse if my mess of thoughts doesnt end up making the most sense. Thank you for this different view point and your discussion of the history of the genre, im grateful i could educate myself in this regard. I hope you have a lovely day ❣️

[@ten410]

I can see people's complaints and your's about the ending but I can buy it. Fennell's vision of Cassie being overcome with grief and not being able to go forward since Nina's death solely focused on her revenge scheme that once everything was finished she didn't want to go on further in life. Her severely tormenting the women without the same vitality as the men is an issue I'm in total accord with. The most frightening scene beside Cassie's death was her in the dean's office, which sticks with me every time I think of this film. It would've been lovely for her to show the attempting rapists how it felt to have no control and all power stripped away from much like the dean and her form classmate instead of finger-wanging them. You did an excellent video essay.

[@Legba85]

When I watch your video, I always consider these to be either informative; educational, meant to be discussed and subject matter to be taken cautiously. I enjoy them a lot.

[@marlenajackaman736]

I won't ever stop being angry about my assaults. I'm so done with the whole 'anger isn't productive' company line you get told. So long as women aren't getting justice, I will be pissed off.

[@MoxieMcMurder]

I May Destroy You was one of the best series I watched that year. Wish more people would talk about it. I'm not a fan of rape revenge movies but I personally really liked Promising Young Woman.

[@subotnai1]

been waiting for another vid.. thank you for feeding my serotonin and dopamine centers... nom nom nom.. Observation: when they said: "she is as violent as those men" since there is no other way to obtain catharsis, one could say, she was obligated to do what she did. She cannot have been "AS violent as" those men, since she is not the originator . And as such, the origin of the violence comes from them. She is the escalator of the conflict by way of righteous retribution. This now posits the very interesting question: how far should someone have been raped take the retribution? In the war of blood for blood.. the one who strikes first, must be weary of the one who survives. It's fun how those very men will defend the status quo which promotes an innumerable amount of movies that promote arguably violently defensive means, where the men are the heroes. Double standard.

[@fisheyenomiko]

"...where the men are the heroes" Yeah. Like, I I thought "John Wick" was great, and I get his dog was more than "a dog", but... The dude murdered numerous people for killing his dog. And people *love* John Wick (and, again, I do too). But you make a movie in which a woman is raped and goes specifically, and only, after the men who raped her and... that's bad? That is some BU~ULLLLLSHIT.

[@rubiperez9797]

I recently watched the Dirty Harry movie Sudden Impact and it was more of a rape revenge movie than I expected from a super conservative 1980s cop drama. As problematic as that movie was, it had more catharsis than expected. Great video!

[@muddlewait8844]

The thing about ISOYG is that, none of what the woman does to the men seems anywhere near as shocking or cruel as those first 20 or 30 or however many minutes that seem to go on for hours.Decades later, I still can’t think about it without becoming angry and a little ill. A few buddies of mine and I rented it for a lark in college just based on the grindhouse box art and we were so disturbed by its first part that we seriously talked - like, had an actual hushed-tones philosophical conversation - about destroying the copy we’d rented. We ended up just driving it immediately back to the video store because even though we decided not to smash it to bits, none of us wanted to be anywhere near the physical tape afterwards. I cannot imagine anyone who’d seen it ever wanting to see it again. Maybe for some academic reason.

[@merybethancourt65]

yes it's just not enough, i still feel angry and sad and disgusted by the end

[@rosestewart4543]

Amazing video, had me clapping along the whole time! I feel like another movie some of these points apply to is Jennifer's Body. It lends itself to a reading of being a supernatural twist on the rape revenge storyline, and the framing around Jennifer being sacrificed feels very deliberately structured to parallel her being assaulted. I remember a lot of the initial reviews seeming almost disturbed by the fact that the promotional material just promised another sexy Megan Fox movie, only for her to brutally disembowel multiple men onscreen. Even the sapphic subplot wound up being largely disregarded because it couldn't be framed in a way that appealed to male viewers. I'm happy the movie is being re-appraised now, but it's very frustrating to think about how a woman-written and directed film like this got thrown under the bus because Hollywood didn't find the actual plot marketable.

[@nataliep856]

Thank you for taking the time to discuss something that a lot of people have very black-and-white opinions on. The era of nuance is going strong, babey!

[@MyssBlewm]

The only way you can get me to watch "Promising Young Woman" is when they release a sequel "Promising Young Woman 2: Nina's Revenge" where we meet Nina, back from the dead like Jason Voorhees and we spend the whole movie watching her kill rapists and the cops can't stop her

[@auldthymer]

Where is this playing? I need to get in line now!

[@larissac9598]

Abso-goddamn-lutely!

[@Rreinholdt]

Heavy but beautiful, thank you! Made me reflect on some of the darkest moments in some of brightest life's I've been around and how i handled that within the pattern of violence handed down to me by other men. Thank you for always inviting me to think and be better, especially when it hurts. love

[@juliemuncy1764]

It seems like it's such a profound failure of imagination that the creator cannot imagine any future for a character like that except death. "Her life is already ruined." That sends a... questionable message to actual survivors, I feel like. It's discomfiting to me.

[@SoWhosGae]

Except she wasn't a survivor herself tbh. She was the one who was impacted so much by it she never recovered and it consumed her life metaphorically and literally. Maybe if Nina was alive things would've been different.

[@bnhalemon7098]

@@SoWhosGae either way, it sends a bad message, just in this case, it’s not to survivors, but to the people who love them (and maybe have lost them too)

[@adrianmora6199]

when you brought up the point about how in rape revenge movies, critics will say "oh, but the woman is resorting to the same level of horrific violence as her rapist!" it reminded me of something in the amazon prime show hunters, specifically in the first season. if you don't know the plot, it is set in the 70s and about a group of mostly jewish badasses coming together to track down and take revenge on nazis. there's one character in it, a neo nazi named travis (i think lol its been a while since i watched it) who murders a bunch of people, including our protagonist jonah's best friend, who is not jewish, but when travis went looking for jonah to kill him because he's an antisemitic asshole, the friend claimed he was jonah in order to protect him, and paid for it with his life. there comes a moment where jonah has the opportunity to kill travis, and he's told by another character that if he does kill travis, it will make jonah just as bad as him. (and i get why, in the grand scheme of things, they decided to not have jonah kill him because they go on to put travis in prison and show how prisons can be a breeding ground for white supremacists and the way which in the system ends up producing more monsters with the existence of jails rather than rehabilitating or providing justice yadda yadda yadda, anyways, i'm getting off topic.) i remember watching that and being so frustrated, because how is taking revenge on your oppressor (who in this case is a serial killer nazi) not justified? how, by taking justice into your own hands, does that make you on the same moral level as a serial killer nazi? travis killed people for two horrible reasons: his bigotry and for the fun of it. if jonah had killed travis, it would've been as a way to avenge his friend, and for that matter, bring justice for all the people travis killed, AND make the world the tiniest bit better cause there would be one less nazi in it! i just find narratives around the way marginalized people are "supposed" to take the high ground and be the better person in the face of hate-fueled violence a sign of the extreme double standard between marginalized communities and non marginalized communities and it disgusts me. anyway if you read through the entirety of this long ass rambly comment i deeply appreciate you & am sending my love

[@toyosibee.mp3]

I was hoping that when she was doing her Entrapment Schemes, that she was at LEAST giving them some kind of mark or brand so they leave the interaction even somewhat scathed. Even if it was only left as implied (so there's that "the weapon is only revealed in the end" aspect), I think that could've made the movie feel more like it was actually /going/ there, y'know?

[@Salami1001]

“PYW lacks a real bite to it, and allowing Survivors to really reach an ultimate moment of fuck you. The film wants to say fuck you, it morally says piss off.”

[@EyeofZai]

i’m not quite in the right headspace to watch this but from what i have seen i’m looking forward to seeing this!! it looks great 💜 edit: holy shit this is amazing. this is absolutely beautiful and as a survivor so validating

[@m.laurifolia4263]

your videos are always so well constructed and thoughtful! i really enjoy how they challenge me in a lot of ways, and this was no exception. i have often not been able to watch movies in this genre bc i genuinely cannot make it thru the setup to get to the revenge part, and so i never really stopped to consider how other survivors would relate to these stories as cathartic, but it makes total sense now that i think about it. i'm not someone who has ever advocated for censorship or anything like that, i just barely engage with that content at all, so i haven't really taken the time to consider how the people that do engage with it work thru it. i still need to process this a bit more, but i feel like this concept is hopefully going to make me into a more thoughtful person, so thank you for that! on another note, i think your video really shines a light on how the way you tell a story will shape its meaning. having the conclusion of a story about the failure of authorities to be 'no but rely on authorities' is just... baffling is the kindest word i can come up with. i believe that the director had good intentions, making sort of a cautionary tale against vigilante justice, but that honestly makes no sense to me lol. i have never met a survivor who felt anything but powerless, regardless of how many revenge stories they consume, and i don't really see much value in taking away what little escapism these stories provide for the sake of 'realism'. i'm quite aware that going on a vengeance spree would likely get me killed, thanks. this movie was very frustrating to me, tbh! the story feels sanitized in a way that's meant to appeal to mainstream audiences, and it ends up leaving me feeling like i'm talking to someone who's sympathetic, but ultimately unwilling to consider my problems in any meaningful way. i'm not sure if i'm being very coherent, sorry. english is not my first language and this subject tends to leave me agitated lol thank you once again for this video, i'll definitely need to rewatch it a couple times!

[@briefisbest]

I am so glad this video exists. Thank you for the book recs as well!

[@Sparkle__Punk]

To me, the weird passive aggressive tone of the text (at the end of PYW) really solidifies the frustratingly toothless, passive aggressive nature of the main character. In the vast majority of media, women aren't allowed to be violent and bloodthirsty. In our society, we are trained to be passive aggressive, relentlessly "cute" in our anger.... And the protagonist in PYW just plays into that (despite the trailer promising otherwise). We deserve stories that show us as directly aggressive and violent creatures, especially in response to trauma and ab*se. The fact that we have so few stories like that and PYW promised that to audiences but didn't deliver just pours more salt on the wound...

[@scaredbi]

Thank you so much. I have dedicated a lot of my creative time to nonfiction pieces about rape revenge after I Spit on Your Grave spoke to me so much about my traumatic experience. I was also heavily disappointed by PYW due to its lack of catharsis for a victim in any way. I feel that rape revenge is also a genre that has the potential to allow for the utmost catharsis for victims and I appreciate your nuance in this subject unlike some other critics

[@kLA747]

This movie spoke to my experience of PTSD that I got from DV. The drive for control, the inability to achieve it through risky behaviors, and the utter helplessness that it leaves you with. The ending was deeply unsatisfying, but in a way that feels accurate. Like, victims are meant to be J.Lo in Enough, but that doesn't work. This ending feels like the emptiness of that societal expectation, of what that actually works out to be. You get your "gotcha" moment, but you're still dead. Is that a satisfying resolution for someone who related to the protagonist? No, but I think it illustrates what a farce it is.

[@Arowrath]

Thank you so much for making this video! I hated this movie from a narrative perspective for all the reasons you stated and my friends berated me for it, like it was morally wrong for me to dislike this movie because the ending was unsatisfying. Plus, the rest of the movie felt toothless as she just berated the date rapists. Also, the fact that Cassie inflicts sexual trauma on a former friend 100% turned me off.

[@janine7384]

I LOVE YOU MELINA. I have been internally raging about this movie for months.

[@allisonbayley3224]

I kind of read it as Cassie and Nina being the same person. I totally agree with you about this being a divisive movie and the lens we view it in is that of a privileged woman. So many feelings about the film! I'll always show up for a mention of women and chainsaws and the monstrous feminine! Love your vid essays, hope this engagement pleases the KZbin antichrist.

[@noecogu]

the only thing i liked about the ending is the conversation the men have when the guy tells the other guy he ki//ed a woman and the other guy tells him he didnt do anything wrong. it really shows that men only care about other men.

[@PogieJoe]

I think I May Destroy You was one of the best TV shows of the last few years. So glad you brought it into the conversation.

[@surgeland9084]

I'd also like to bring up Blackmail from 1929 where a man tries to rape a woman and she defends herself. She does feel guilty throughout the remainder of the runtime, but the action itself is portrayed as a woman defending herself from an attacker. And (spoilers), she is not punished for defending herself which is more than you can say for the treatment of women fighting back in real life today.

[@AlwaysAmTired]

Had to wait until I was in the right head space to watch. It was worth the wait. Great video

[@chaoscryptid4092]

Thank you so much for your thoughts, this video was healing for me. I’m a SA survivor and I was excited for Promising Young Woman for a host of reasons but left the experience incredibly triggered and angry due to many of the points you brought up. Hearing it dissected from a more critical lens with your comparisons helped give me new and greatly needed perspective.

[@ariellavender4553]

I need to stop halfway through to take a break but thank you so much for talking about this!

[@surgeland9084]

I watched this in a theatre with two other guys. It was when they were just opening up so we were masked the whole time and talking about the movie... yeah. I kind of wanted something other than what we got. It's realistic, but we have real life for that. Something a little more cathartic would have been nice.

[@xTenshiko]

Fantastic and deeply insightful video, as always. Really enjoyed hearing this perspective, as honestly I feel like people only ever talk about this film either with effusive praise or like it's garbage from start to finish, and I've never heard it discussed in terms of the Rape Revenge genre (except to say that genre is trash and thus so is this). A lot to think about.

[@AG-cg8nu]

As a survivor of r*pe and csa, I May Destroy You was very healing to watch. Absolutely gut wrenching in parts, and a very difficult watch - particularly the last episodes. But I loved how Coel explores the aftermath of SA in all its complexity, especially in her challenging the idea of the 'perfect victim' which ofc does not exist. The episode where she imagines how to deal with her abuser, wow. I've felt and thought about all of those scenarios and felt shame for thinking of each of them, it was so validating to have another person grapple with those same thoughts. I feel very grateful to Coel that she was able to make this series, it helped me a lot.

[@alanishamblin3976]

I just finished watching “I May Destroy You” yesterday, and one of the things that struck me about it is that the police in that show were at best ineffective and at worst endangering to survivors. They were mostly kind to Arabella, but couldn’t arrest her rapist due to evidence standards. When Kwame went to the police, they were homophobic and negligent to the point of putting him in danger (leaving the door open).

[@jewelswhite5366]

I'm frankly disgusted by the message to survivors that it is more cathartic to die and be a victim forever as opposed to the hopeful idea that people can come back from traumatic experiences and, while not fully heal, survive.

[@Vexxa_]

i will say, in defense(?) of "spit", the director had the idea for the film after he helped a young woman who had been beaten and raped and the police (in 70s new york!) were *profoundly* unhelpful. my question is, like, why dont rape revenge films also involve revenge on the police - the system - that failed her so thoroughly?

[@animeotaku307]

Because (in the US at least) we live in a pretty pro-cop country where doing violence like that against police who “didn’t do anything wrong” would be a hard sell. Audiences and critics were harsh on films where the heroine unleashes brutal revenge on her rapists; imagine the blowback if she did the same to some cops who’s crime was not delivering justice.

[@Vexxa_]

@@animeotaku307 even then, i figure someone wouldve come up with "revenge against the singular bad cop on the whole force" because that pro-cop attitude still admits to 'bad apples'.

[@freeingmichele3295]

I have been sexually assaulted by a family member and a former partner. "Promising Young Woman" and "I May Destroy You" really made me look at how I judge women and those who are survivors of sexual assault. I had thought that I was a much better person and would not blame someone's life choices for being raped or their general life circumstances. "I May Destroy You" forced me to grow exponentially. I empathized with Arabella. I learned from her. I cried, celebrated, and hated with her. I am so thankful to Michaela Coel, BBC One, and HBO for this phenomenal series. Thank you for this excellent video.

[@XloH911]

One of my favourite horror movies when I was teen was the Thai horror movie, Shutter. Spoilers below. Go see the movie if you haven’t. I remember that ending reveal where the ghost was entirely justified for her revenge. You watch the whole movie thinking all these men are just innocent, especially her sweet bambi ex boyfriend. Then when it’s revealed what happened and how her ex did the ultimate betrayal, it’s a fuck you guys moment, ghost side forever. Also, beautiful how when his gf finds out, she just leaves him alone in the room while he’s crying. And then, the reveal of how the ghost has been sitting on his neck the entire time!!!

[@auldthymer]

that movie was awesome

[@danieladamico5485]

Yes! That movie is great

[@ben96lim]

Really enjoyed this video! Think half of your last sentence cut off on the the end of Part 3 though.

[@hinasakukimi]

when it comes to this subject, i highly recommend the film mysterious skin. it's about two male survivors coming to terms with what happened to them when they were children and it is *harrowing*. there's a perfect lack of catharsis in the end, if that makes sense. i won't spoil it but yeah, it's rough.

[@fyarae3750]

I've been dealing with some remnants of my own trauma recently and hearing you speak about it has really helped me just kind of sit with it. I really can't explain how grateful I am to have your voice in this space. Your eloquence and sensitivity is a treasure and I just wanted to really let you know that ❤️

[@randomkeir]

Holy Sh-! You mentioned Lipstick! Watching the first ten minutes of this video, Lipstick came to mind. I haven’t thought of this film in years!