Was Tyrannosaurus as smart as a baboon?

There was a new paper about the number of neurons in dinosaurs. And it got a lot of press attention. But what was actually in the paper? And how smart might T. rex have been? We look at the paper and try to start answering some of these questions.
Read the paper here! onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/e...
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[@leoornstein3963]

The idea of a Tyrannosaur smacking an unsuspecting Hadrosaur with a big stick that it held with its mouth instead of bitting is comical.

[@parakeetbudgie]

yes animals getting beat to death is comical

[@parakeetbudgie]

jk

[@leoornstein3963]

@@parakeetbudgie lemme remove the death part real quick

[@parakeetbudgie]

@@leoornstein3963 i didn’t expect to change the comment

[@tobiasedwards2643]

Please someone draw this

[@raditz2737]

Even if you took the lower estimate, a Tyrannosaurus Rex with the mental capacity of a large dog sounds terrifying lol

[@o0_VanYsH_0o]

Considering how well you can train a German Shepard, suddenly Owen Grady from Jurassic World doesn't seem all that far off now. Forget training Raptors, he's about to get a hold of a Rex, lmfao.

[@raditz2737]

@@o0_VanYsH_0o of course its all hypothetical but its super funny to think about lol

[@bkjeong4302]

To be honest, crocodilians are already around that level (yes, you can teach crocodiles to follow simple commands), so theropods in general were probably about as smart as dogs.

[@ivanbarreras9445]

Varanid lizards also share around dog level intelligence. So it wouldn't be wild if assume that dinosaurs would be similar

[@MysteryKar]

think about that next time you get a dog and wanna call it Rex

[@douglasphillips5870]

Primate like intelligence is one thing, but did any dinosaurs have arms that could throw poop?

[@granolapancake]

Truly the benchmark of intellectual fortitude.

[@jamesasimmons]

Kunpengopterus had opposable thumbs so maybe.

[@MadameCorgi]

Asking the big questions here

[@grumpyaustralian6631]

This sent me down a rabbit hole that ended with reading a study on birds aiming their poop bombs intentionally at people, I think given the air speed and flight speed of the bird, the aim required for an aerial poop assault must be atleast as complex as throwing. Then I remembered that someone once found a massive coprolite crater with a small crushed theropod in it, so we may have anecdotal evidence of sauropods aiming their poops too 😂/S

[@mhdfrb9971]

They're. Just look at Deinocheirus

[@fredbloggs8072]

Neurons in birds are tightly packed, making them far smarter than they should be for their brain sizes compared to other extant animals (especially corvids & psittacines). I do wonder though if this feature evolved to save weight in an animal that needs to be able to fly efficiently. In which case tightly-packed Neurons may well have not evolved in non-avian dinosaurs.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yeah, that's one of the biggest questions. Even if it wasn't just birds with those densities then that would make the adaptation at least 160 million years old. Which is just about impossible to test for

[@hobosorcerer]

Large dinosaurs had plenty of features to help mitigate weight, like their bone structures & air sacks, so I wouldn't be surprised if that extended to the brain.

[@zZWolfyZz]

I imagine that managing flight takes a fair bit of processing power so yeah having a compact powerful brain might be unique to avians or at least animals with the ability to fly as I understand bats are extremely intelligent I think on par with dolphins so it may be that flight was the catalyst for their brain development

[@ferociousrazordino3581]

Well, the study gets high values for endothermic and lower for ectothermic

[@ferociousrazordino3581]

Dinosaurs had many adaptations to save weight, so dense neurons may have helped with that. I'm speculating, though

[@laurachapple6795]

Somebody: "T rex could use tools!" T Rex: *wiggles tiny arms*

[@rodrigopinto6676]

“Tiny arms” but VERY STRONG.

[@OscarReyes-zh8ub]

… how about tiny arms ended on one or more skilled tentacles (which by their very nature do not fossilize well?…)

[@mhdfrb9971]

Cringe

[@regorthejoe7953]

Tiny arms but... COULD LIFT 400 KG

[@llewelynshingler2173]

@@OscarReyes-zh8ub Occam's razor.

[@kathyl9222]

I think at the very least this paper will get people re-evaluating the idea that dinosaurs were stupid based on encephalization quotient and maybe even consider if EQ has a mammal bias.

[@Scipionyxsam]

I'm not sure how many of those comments are serious or just in jest, but in case some of them are based on a real misunderstanding: Tool use doesn't necessarily include an incredibly complex motion limited to the forelimbs. Just like in the case of crocs it could also pertain preparing a sort of cover from materials. Or it could mean dropping something heavy, or grabbing a stick with the jaw and use it for additional reach.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yeah, that's part of why I brought up the crocodylians using tool, it doesn't mean using arms.

[@warlord5295]

There are even certain species of birds that use tools to crack open large eggs but in the case of trex let's say it's having trouble opening up a turtle shell it could drop a rock a few times to open it or it can remember where prey animals go to give birth for an easy meal along with amazing eyesight it could have used the night to its advantage or the capability to hunt in packs to kill larger prey like triceratops or edmontosaurus or to separate young from their parents.

[@bkjeong4302]

@@RaptorChatter It also shows that the ideas about non-coelurosaurian theropods running on instinct because they have croc-like brains are badly out of date, since if crocs themselves are much smarter than traditionally assumed, it also means that most archosaurs with basal croc-like brains would, by extension, also have been much smarter than previously assumed.

[@victory8928]

Yeah just because the creature can’t use tools in the way people do doesn’t mean they are less intelligent when it comes to using what they have. Corvids are a great example. Same with parrots

[@napalmholocaust9093]

Never considered any of the reptiles I've kept as smart except for the Nile monitor. It hunted in the house methodically. If there was was something to find (never was) it was gonna find it. Had the harness for it outside, if you set it down on a super rotten log it would tear it apart like it was it's job. It relentlessly harassed my chick at the time and eyed me with suspicion unless I was feeding it.

[@RaptorChatter]

My lab supervisor swears the snakes in the lab play. I think many animals have more complex behaviors than we give credit, and that's something that needs to be reanalyzed in animal behavior sciences

[@danballard7405]

@@RaptorChatterThis. This and this again.

[@frostbitetheannunakiiceind6574]

@@RaptorChatter yeah

[@jeffthompson9622]

I kept one Nile, then shifted to salvator monitors which seemed to socialize better. It's pretty satisfying to have a lizard seek out human company and very carefully take food from the hand after visually examining and tongue flicking to be sure where one ends and the other begins.

[@sampagano205]

Monitors are a cut above intellectually for sure.

[@hunterG60k]

I've been saying for a long time that animal behaviourists should get together with palaeontologists, especially after watching some of the older cgi documentaries about dinosaurs. T.rex definitely did not confront and roar at its prey before attacking lol

[@dondragmer2412]

Sometimes they might, as they started the chase in an ambush, to startle their prey so as to help it identify the weakest and slowest. I've seen a few videos in which tigers, at least, do this. Maybe lions do not because they hunt cooperatively in prides.

[@johnbuck2578]

Kudos to you! It has always driven me insane how every Rex in every show ever made ROARS before attacking. There's not a predator on the planet that exhibits that behavior.... at least not a successful one!🙄

[@melvinrembet7438]

​@@johnbuck2578 prehistoric planet did pretty well. The rexes in season 2 ambushed an edmontosaurus and they didn't make a single sound

[@danielmcandrew979]

Thanks so much for commenting on this. I couldn’t find anything talking about what as assumed and if the approach taken was actually viable or a case of someone assuming they knew all they needed to know even though they come from another discipline

[@RaptorChatter]

It definitely could be better, but the author mostly works on primates, and those are mostly the same size (even give or take a few hundred pounds). So the scaling isnt quite the same

[@nelsonparsifalcantebury5083]

Tyrannosaurus continues to be the most overpowered thing that ever existed.

[@garywebster3585]

Any predator that successfully targets a lawyer taking a dump has a high level of intelligence.

[@llewelynshingler2173]

Could be the frog DNA

[@electricpiggy301]

I would be inclined to assume many therapods are smarter than we give them credit for...Buuut with that said humans have kinda tainted the way we view intelligence since we compare everything to us and if it doesn't operate in the same or a similar way our first reaction is to just assume it's not to smart. I would imagine that tool use probably wasn't super prolific in dinosaurs just due to how specialized alot of them are there probably wouldn't be a need for that tool use. Instead i would imagine just general problem-solving skills and hunting tactics would be the primary ways for it to manifest in therapod dinosaurs along with perhaps some more complex social behavior. That said i have a hard time thinking that of all things one of the largest predatory dinosaurs in the form of T-rex would form any sort of "society" just due to the logistics of it all, how are you going to feed a troop of two dozen rexes? Even if they are constantly migrating nomadic creatures they are going to be hunting areas dry in a matter of a month with that many huge stomachs to feed.

[@ShellyTheSeal]

I don't think it's too unrealistic for Tyrannosaurs to form social groups seeing as quite a few large modern predators do the same. A social structure similar to a lion pride would probably be the most likely.

[@PackHunter117]

That’s why I think it’s possible like some modern animals the babies would hunt with the parents and then leave about the time of maturity and form their own families to repeat the process. So essentially 2 adults and however many babies that didn’t die off

[@gandalfthewhite.5245]

Since this theory is therapods in general, does that put the allosaurus packs theory back on the table?

[@XWierdThingsHappenX]

Therapods where definitely smart. Most predators need some intelligence to be able to chase down prey.

[@Envy_May]

maybe younger/smaller tyrannosaurs were more social and older/bigger tyrannosaurs were more solitary ?

[@buggyboy2849]

To quote Darwin: "The brain of an ant is one of the most marvelous atoms of matter in the world, perhaps more so than the brain of a man." It's not about the size or mass but how well you use it.

[@squirlis1189]

Yeah. Although honeybees have been shown to be smarter, an ant's hive mind and collective intelligence is astounding as they are one of the only few non human animals to have teacher pupil relationships, show problem solving skills via usage of tools, can recognise themselves in the mirror, farm and wage wars just to name a few things.

[@turkeyman100]

Maybe an interesting of T. rex tool use, or at least problem solving, would be maybe collecting nest materials during some hadrosaur or Triceratops nesting season, setting up an ambush spot nearby, and attacking whatever comes too close. Like the crocodiles

[@christosvoskresye]

Oh, if only there were a peer review process to make suggestions to authors of scientific papers!

[@RaptorChatter]

There is, but I imagine at least some of the reviewers were neurologists, not paleontologists. There was one reviewer who is a paleontologist, but I'm not familiar with his work, so can't say if he's done much paleoneurology work.

[@deadknight1402]

Moral of the story: nothing is conclusive, and scientists of different fields need to cooperate closely.

[@patreekotime4578]

Never knew about crocs using tools. That puts a nice bracket around dinos and opens up some interesting thought experiments. If a croc can use tools with its croc brain that also begs the question of how we can even qualify intelligence at all. Its swiftly becoming an almost useless metric for determining behavior IMO.

[@Pssybart]

From the start it was obvious that this paper wouldn't make any hard revelation on dinosaur intelligence. But it does provide us with a good thought experiment. Historically dinosaurs were just dismissed as a clade of dim-witted oversized lizards. And that's because they had a quote: "walnut-sized brain" and small brains equal stupid. But there is a lot more to intelligence than just measuring sizes. As we've seen, even crocodilians have shown a lot more complex behaviour in past studies.

[@pickles_8472]

Imagine, you're just standing there with a Tyrannosaurus in front of you, with it's eyes shining with intelligence as it watches you. Absolutely terrifying.

[@Dejawolfs]

IMO, it would require some brains and teamwork to hunt the T-rex main prey, the triceratops. it's quite a challenging meal...

[@Katarn84]

Now I just can't unsee a T-Rex poking a log with his mouth inside of a prey lair just to make it get out while the rest of the pack watches.

[@daffierpython7755]

All I can imagine is a rex sharpening a stick or rock to sheer bits of meat off bones to eat or to feed their babies with

[@jeffthompson9622]

I had wondered if the intelligence of therapod dinosaurs might be underestimated since I read that their surviving corvid cousins have brains more densely packed with neurons than those of mammals.

[@starwarfan8342]

I hope so. But I've noticed that people place too much important on who your relatives are. It may not matter if your distant family member was smart, you could still be dumb. Besides, the dinosaurs are just as closely related to pigeons and dodos as they are to corvids and parrots. Octopuses and snails are both mullusca and no one is talking about snail intelligence.

[@Dynotop1a]

I think there’s a decent argument that some dinosaurs probably constructed large structures, at least for nests and mating rituals. However, there definitely weren’t tyrannical robber barons around in the Cretaceous, so unfortunately no Maastrichtian Industrial Revolution or prehistoric Gilded Age. The K-pg explosion saw an increase in the distribution of Earth’s crust throughout the atmosphere and the deposition of an iridium rich clay layer, rather than any significant economic growth.

[@johnmanno2052]

YOU!!! You're AWESOME, dude! Whoever you are, wherever you are, thank you for your level headed, no nonsense, straight up good sense! Ugh!!! It's very very very difficult to REALLY know something, if we can even really know anything at all. I'm glad people like you are on KZbin reminding everyone that just because there's an idea out there, doesn't mean it's accurate, even if it's very cool

[@murderyoutubeworkersandceos]

Heard bout it yesterday and was sceptical. Good to have neutrality and NOT jumping to conclusions. Like i said: evolution favours those, who can hold a gun. How has tyrannosaurus made and used tools? With its hands, or the fantastically dextrous lips?

[@mattialonghin_mr.l857]

The idea of a trex using tools seems a bit strange for his physiology. But maybe they were developing what can be called "social skill". Maybe complex groups or something similar

[@angeldelgado7120]

Reminds me of whales. They are super intelligent, but don't have the body to create tools.

[@nisman9558]

There's kinda evidence for Nanuqsaurus and Albertosaurus hunting in packs, not like the raptor predator trap, but more of a family group chilling

[@mattialonghin_mr.l857]

@@nisman9558 clever beasts

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

@@angeldelgado7120 much like whales, we also have evidence that trex could communicate with eachother over extremely long distances using very low frequency noise. At the very least, this was used as a territorial warning to other rexes, as well as calling for a mate, but with a higher intelligence it could definitely be easily used for coordinating

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

Smart means its decision making processes, not mechanical capabilities. A Trex being as smart as a baboon does not mean that it does what a baboon does, it means it can make decisions on the same level as a baboon. It won't engage in tool use beyond maybe nest construction if they made nests, but it WILL be able to rationalize a LOT better than yoir general animal. This will help in everything in life, as intelligence is the most OP stat in the game of life. Hunting, maybe they set traps, maybe they could calculate good ambush routes and pinpoint the best risk/reward target within a herd. Communication between different Trexs was probably very complex, like crows (Trexs could also communicate with eachother over extremely long distances with low-frequency noise). There are so many uses for intelligence beyond picking up sticks and swinging them around. 65 million years is the max possible time it took for us humans to get as intelligent as we are, it's not so far-fetched to assume that the hundreds of millions of years of dinosaur evolution produced at least some highly intelligent creatures. And further incidental evidence is that pretty much every single apex predator (and apex animal in general) has a higher intelligence than a lot of the animals below it.

[@20firebird]

THANK you, those headlines have been driving me batty too. god bless restrained science education

[@itzelpretzel]

I really hope the next revolution in paleontology is expanding our knowledge of dinosaur behavior. There could data out there that jus TVrequires cross disciplinary work and different approaches to be found.

[@azurearcade342]

I think that we don't really need to look too far back in order to figure out the behaviors of dinos. I think that present-day animals who have grown into certain niches can answer a lot of questions we have about ancient life. I always equated t-rex to having a behavior closely resembling that of a Kodiak bear. Smart enough to be the apex for its environment. I feel like suggesting that it was as smart as a baboon is a little overreaching. I'm probably wrong, though. I'm no nuero scientist.

[@denizen9998]

Yes and the T rex used those two finger hands like tweezers!😱

[@beastvg123]

Funny enough, if dinosaurs had produced a sapient species that achieved civilization, we might never know. Geologic time might be enough to scatter even civilizations of our size to the wind in a handful of millions of years. The Silurian Hypothesis makes for a fun thought experiment; though I personally don't believe other technological civilizations have existed on this planet before us.

[@PAPPADASH]

T-Rex's built the temple of Giza

[@sneeringimperialist6667]

A chicken can fly and run around for a few seconds after its head has been cut completely off. A lot of brain mass in birds is in the torso, not the head. If theropods are similar in that regard, this study is leaving out a lot of brain mass by concentrating only on the skull...

[@deleted5794]

If I become a Paleontologist, which I want to, and I'm only 14, but I'd love to figure how these prehistoric creatures actually sounded like. And how they acted around their family, and possibly friends.

[@louis8252]

Thank you for explaining this!!!

[@ArawnsFire]

So . . . Tyrannosaurs couldn’t be that intelligent because they’re more “ Primitive “ than modern birds. MEANWHILE, cephalopods, the humble mollusks use tools, solve complex problems, engage in play, show self awareness, and even perspective taking. So perhaps neither side should be quick to generalize.

[@RaptorChatter]

I mean primitive isn't the way to describe it. It was still evolving for the same amount of time as birds that lived at the same time. And their brains did evolve separately. But we still know how croc brains function to at least some degree, and there's more similarities between their brains and T. rex's than birds and T. rex's. So it's just that they were probably more croc like behaviorally.

[@ArawnsFire]

@@RaptorChatter ; Just having a bit of sport. The natural world has a way of confounding science and our own understanding . Just when we think we’ve figured it out along comes something that switches the paradigm.

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

W thumbnail,I don't know what else to say. I just love this channel

[@abdulazizrex]

What kind tools could a T-rex possibly use?

[@DjeauxSheaux]

I really don't think we can make many honest inferences about the intelligence of T-rex with the information we have. Frankly I think we're bad enough at evaluating the intelligence of extant animals, let alone animals so vastly different from even their closest living relatives

[@DjeauxSheaux]

Rather at looking at the brain shape and size as a guide, I'd try to think about what we knew the animal did based on evidence in the fossil record, and what it necessarily needed to do to sustain it's life. We know T.Rex ate animals that were likely faster than it, so it was smart enough to successfully ambush those animals often enough to survive. That probably wasn't easy to do when you're one of the largest terrestrial predators. It also fed on a variety of different, large, well armed animals, which would have required different hunting techniques.

[@louiscypher4186]

@@DjeauxSheaux Highly unlikely that they would use different hunting technique's. Tyrannosaurs show a constant evolution towards not only larger size with a massive jaw and the shortening of the forelimbs, this suggests that they were evolving towards a specialisation rather then a generalist animal.

[@DjeauxSheaux]

@@louiscypher4186 I see your point, but body shape doesn't tell you everything about behavior. I'd imagine you'd need different approaches for something like a giant hadrosaur VS triceratops. Still, you may be right.

[@mikerude5073]

I'm not convinced they were primate level of intelligent, that is really high for any animal, but I could believe as smart as a Crow. They were smart enough to survive as a species around 2 million years, that's a pretty good run.

[@hitogami5827]

Also , the one thing that is rarely discussed when we talk about dinosaurs and "other" civilizations is ... How large are the time gaps between even the lives of animals which fossils we find. Because, lets be real here - we find only scraps, few lucky exceptions as fossils - there were thousands and thousands of species, remains of Which we will never find - because there is none. And now, consider this - our species exists for a very limited time. The time gaps between some of the dino fossils is so vast, that even if there were great artificial buildings like the whole New York city, it would be completely erased at the time the creature-holder of next fossil would walk the land it was build on. And even if there were some primitive civilizations at that time, it would take few thousand years to completely destroy all their tools and buildings.

[@ikennachukwu521]

Ayy thats my professor!

[@Valdagast]

Another thing we don't know is the number of glial cells. One of the things you notice in mammals as you move to smarter animals is that the number of astrocytes per neuron goes way, way up. Maybe the number of neurons isn't as critical as we think it is.

[@LuisAldamiz]

Birds have more compact (smaller but similarly efficient) neurones than mammals and even primates (which are intermediate in size). That explains the high intelligence of some birds like parrots or corvids. But the question remains: how were the neurones of non-avian dinosaurs?

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

Depends on whether the non-avian evolved from an avian or not. Raptors, for example, almost definitelt evolved from early avians, or at the very least semi-avians. If therapods also evolved from avians like that, there's a decent chance that they kept the neuron structure needed for that kind of intelligence

[@LuisAldamiz]

@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly - Isn't like the other way around? Aves (and their precursor clades, Euornythes and Avialae) are a specific subset of Theropoda.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

@@LuisAldamiz we have evidence that the primal form of raptors was basically avian. triassic fossils and whatnot. Obviously not BIRD birds, but avian

[@Koraxus]

@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly Still, non-avians would not evolve from avians themselves. It's the other way around.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

@@Koraxus My guy, evolution can work in literally any "direction" it wants. If it works out, it works out. Clearly raptor/therapod builds work, so it doesn't really matter what they evolved from, what matters is that it worked. Also just so you're aware, a lot of our modern-day flightless birds ALSO evolved from avians, so idk what you're on about.

[@aceundead4750]

What i got from this is in the future the show Swamp People could see alligators using camouflage to hunt the humans who are in turn hunting the alligators.

[@jurassicmatt2796]

Well I never expected to hear of a T Rex using tools.

[@seanmckelvey6618]

I imagine many dinosaurs were probably smarter than we give them credit for, but my first thought when I saw the clickbaity articles going around about this was "how could you possibly ascertain that?". It's foolish to try and make claims about how intelligent an extinct animal was based purely on a brain to body size ratio. I would guess that Tyrannosaurus probably had crocodilian levels of intelligence, which are hardly stupid animals, but they aren't exactly primate level either.

[@LeoTheYuty]

Great video

[@gigaslayer1058]

T rex being somewhat intelligent is an interesting idea. This could mean that T rex could form some social bonds, uses branches to scratch its body, and probably planned out hunts/traps. However, I wouldn't believe it to be as intelligent as primates. Maybe more discussion on this matter will highlights how smart T rex and other dinosaurs were.

[@rodrigopinto6676]

T. rex was the ultimate predator

[@tozarkt9805]

I mean the author of the paper said the lower estimate for the study they used for T-Rex was a neuron capacity similar to a large dog. That I find way more believable, although I wouldn’t be surprised if it was more intelligent than that

[@gigaslayer1058]

@@tozarkt9805 God now I think of all the arts of T rex acting like a dog now sounds reasonable xD

[@ferociousrazordino3581]

@@tozarkt9805 but would not size of the animal be a factor?

[@andrewstripay5987]

this just in: 'head line' and 'head lice' are 7/8's the same! journalists declare they are same

[@alioramus1637]

I suspected for a long time that non-avian theropods were just as cognitive advanced as avian theropods. This study also found some ornithischians scored well too which is awesome. sauropods were fairly low though as i suspected. This study was bombarded with criticism on the net but it will open the door for more questions and more studies to be made on the paleoneurology of non-avian dinosaurs.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yeah I'm optimistic about the future of paleoneurology, but frustrated with the conclusions getting so much free reign for the general public who don't pay that much attention to dinosaurs.

[@allthelittleworms]

personally I expected sauropods to be at least a little above average but I guess it makes sense if they're more like tortoises or something like that

[@FeralSheWolf]

Grouping owls (one of the dumbest birds) with parrots (the smartest) is an interesting choice

[@RaptorChatter]

That part is just a broader phylogeny, so more relationships than intelligence comparisons.

[@evilcow666]

Owls are dumb? That's funny

[@tozarkt9805]

Yeah, brains literally the size of a pea

[@KyuuDesperation]

I'm insulted by this, and I'm the Wolf.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yep, the eyes are so big that they take up a lot of the skull and force the brain to be smaller

[@shmee123ful]

i know you likely didnt mean for the this image to pup in my brain when you mentioned that some crocdilians pile sticks ontop of themselves to atract birds but i got the mental image of a t rex doing the same just this massice creature hidinf under this hill sized piled of sticks got a chuckly out of me

[@dennismason3740]

I am nearly bursting at the seams holding back on the data you wouldn't believe. Instead of dribbling clues I simply recommend the Distant Origin episode of Voyager. Star Trek got so many things right. That episode doesn't reflect my version of dino evolution but it opens a lot of doors. Season 3, episode 23.

[@Cat_Woods]

T. Rex must have been smart; one of them is wearing glasses in the thumbnail! 😊

[@jthomas8263]

Callaghan, 2023 Paleontology is here, Chilean Dinos and Titanosaur Eggs in India.

[@satyamashutoshchaudhary6043]

now that's a gentleman

[@shadowdeslaar]

I had a Great Pyrnees. VERY smart dog. Imagine a Trex that can communicate With a different Species, Acknowledge when your helping, or simply. Bark

[@fmac6441]

The author of the study made a video explaining a point of the work: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpaknXWja7d2l9E

[@grahamstrouse1165]

Crocodilians also have high-neuron density, so…🤷‍♂️

[@snicklesnockle7263]

croc brain confirmed

[@Dragasm]

Who was the artist of the Dilophosaurus behind you? It's beautiful. Also, great video!

[@batbat4043]

Its one of those design sketches of jurassic Park i think

[@predragpetrovic1012]

The problem is that today you can publish anything in open access journals without proper peer review. So now serious paleontologists will have to spend 20 years in convincing public that "clever girl" wasn't actually that clever

[@RaptorChatter]

Yeah, and that is frustrating. I also am not looking forward to explaining this more in the future, but figured I should at least be moderately optimistic while I still could be.

[@JurassicReptile]

even if it did have a crocodile brain, crocodiles are pretty smart all things considered. Not society-building but pretty good

[@fmac6441]

I saw someone arguing in another video that one of the problems with the study is that in its conclusion it claimed that the sexual maturity of the T.Rex would be at 5/6 years (10 years earlier that is the current consensus) and the maximum age of 40/50 years, also higher than currently speculated. Does anyone have any comments on these points?

[@carnoraptor79]

Yah IDK if that is legit because the fossil records show that T.rex's maximum life expectancy is around 30 years.

[@Nadiki]

@@carnoraptor79 true but a lot of our maximum life expectancy estimates come from things in captivity where they can get medicine and proper diets and stuff. The wilderness is harsh and animals reaching their maximum life expectancy is pretty rare. If wild Rexes could live up to 30 years, it’s possible they could theoretically live another 10-20 years with proper nutrition and care

[@carnoraptor79]

@@Nadiki But real life animals almost never experience that luxury. Let alone ones that were here way before human civilization and are now extinct, unless that Rex was able to live such a chill and relaxed life with an abundant supply of food, water and shelter. Plus most of the adult Rex specimens we have already described were around 18-20 ish before they died and are already fully matured individuals as evidenced by their bone maturity which led Paleontologists to state how T.rexes live fast and die young.

[@fmac6441]

@@carnoraptor79 sure, but the point makes sense, at least as a defense of the study. If the fossil record says 30, thinking that the upper limit is 40+ is within reason. Sexual maturity I think not so much.

[@carnoraptor79]

@@fmac6441 Well it is technically not out of the question, but paleontologists don't necessarily say an immediate "yes" when you ask them if a T.rex can reach 40-50 years old because it is still very unlikely as we pretty much have no evidence of any T.rex fossil having a bone maturity that's pass 30.

[@elperrotrepapinos]

Great video! It is important to say that yes, elephants have many more neurons than we do (about 3 times as many), but the difference is not simply due to synapses, but to where those neurons are located. 97% of elephant neurons are in the cerebellum, not the cortex (they have about 1/4 of our number of neurons there). I'm pretty sure the Herculano-Houzel paper can be improved (e.g. by using a more recent data source), but there's a big misunderstanding among palaeontologists (and many comparative cognition experts) about the importance of having more neurons in the pallium. Herculano-Huzel has great articles on this. Both fields can learn a lot from each other.

[@WinterroSP]

Next thing we know Someone discovers t-rex Atlantis

[@RaptorChatter]

It's buried beneath Chixulub

[@robertemerson1087]

T-Rex arms actually make more sense now that we know they were pretty smart.

[@jimmyquigley7561]

Most birds build things, nests. Some are big, some are quite sophisticated. We have needed tools for at least 5M years. A group of humans carrying pointy sticks could defend themselves. No stick they're bipedal cat-food.

[@chrisamon4551]

@Raptor Chatter I agree with many of the points you’re making about tyrannosaur brains looking more like croc brains and the paper’s author scaling up bird brains. However, we have a growing amount of evidence of social behavior in tyrannosaurs. There are several mass tyrannosaur burial sites with young and old animals, all killed in the same flood. There are also tyrannosaur walkways with multiple tyrannosaurs moving together. The evidence is there for Albertasaurus, Gorgosaurus, and Daspletasaurus to have hunted in packs. Probably it was an adaptation to their prey: various Centrosaurs and Ceratopsians and Hadrosaurs moving in vast herds at this time.

[@RaptorChatter]

Oh, absolutely. But this paper definitely needed a bit of work before coming to those conclusions.

[@ThunderKnightSilver2]

Thanks for this vid, already seeing videos with click-baitey thumbnails going around citing this paper

[@RaptorChatter]

It's exhausting seeing those, but it drives views, one of the problems with science education.

[@loganfalvo7349]

I could see a Trex leaving some of a carcass to eat any scavengers.

[@catherinehubbard1167]

There’s no reason to assume dinosaurs had the small-sized, highly connected brain neurons seen in some more intelligent modern birds. As you point out, their brains were not the same shape as birds’ brains either. Overall, this sounds like someone who jumped into a different field assuming their own expertise would solve problems. In fact, the subject of brain size and function and relative metabolic levels in dinosaurs have already been intensively studied for many years, with many different types of data analyzed. Judging by relative brain size and morphology, tyrannosaurs were not the brightest dinosaurs. Some of the dromeosaurs, for example were probably cleverer and were certainly more agile hunters. But media pieces about T rexes maybe using tools and possibly being as smart as baboons certainly will get a lot of attention.

[@Dr.IanPlect]

This is the second YT vid I've seen regarding this new paper; as is all too frequent, the findings are overblown, misinterpreted and grossly misapplied and generalised Well, a word of caution. This is highly speculative, inference-based investigation still at an early stage. It's far from persuasive, let alone conclusive. Nonetheless, as was the case with that T. rex collagen protein paper that ultimately lead to the press ridiculously reporting chickens are the closest living T. rex descendants. This will end up in mainstream press as 'dinosaurs are just as smart as us' in a few weeks.

[@chrisrandom1404]

I doubt animals like T. Rex had primate like intelligence. But I believe it could problem solve. Same with other large therapods. They had to hunt to survive so I would think that would be part of it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they had found some T. Rex specimens grouped together. (I could be wrong here.) If that's the case perhaps they may have developed small social groups? It's not hard to imagine really.

[@martontoth2063]

Well, you only need a small correction. There are quite a few Tyrannosaurid genera/species who's members was found in "groups" (namely Gorgosaurus, Albertosaurus, Daspletosaurus, and recently Teratophoneus), and also there are some trace fossils (track ways in this case) of tyrannosaurs presumably walking together, so they might have exhibited some level of gregariousness (though to what extent is unknown). But as for _T. rex_ specifically, they have not been found in groups (yet?). So based on its close relatives (and assuming that the interpretations of these bone beds are correct), T. rex might have been gregarious as well. Though there are some caveats, like gregariousness can vary widely even within a genus (see Panthera), let alone a whole Family (see Canidae). And also that T. rex was a much larger animal than most other tyrannosaurids, so it needed much more resources and larger territory, which might have led it to be more solitary.

[@chrisrandom1404]

@@martontoth2063 I figured if they did form "groups" it would probably be only a few individuals at best. Perhaps just enough to aid in hunting and monitoring territory.

[@mhdfrb9971]

If that's the case, then Troodontids are as smart as a human.

[@fmac6441]

I was disappointed that the study did not include Troodon in the comparison chart with other animals, as it was included in the list of evaluated dinosaurs. If I am not wrong, they had 1/5 of the neurons/I don't remember the pattern she uses, from the T.Rex, with a much smaller size

[@ar5611]

Aren’t troodon not a valid genus anymore

[@fmac6441]

apparently I got the conclusion incorrect: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpaknXWja7d2l9E

[@oriontheraptor8119]

I thought troodon and some raptor species where the ones that were developing intelligence. Not once would I of ever expected Trex to be the smart one.

[@squirlis1189]

Ive heard that by modern day animal standards even those dinosaurs were pretty stupid. Troodons were only as smart as some modern birds.

[@DireFox7]

T Rex had an estimated EQ of 2.0 to 2.4. Chimps have an EQ of 1.9. Dolphins have an EQ of 2.3. Humans have an EQ of 7.0.

[@TravisMcInroy]

The author of the study never claimed that T. rex was smarter than a baboon. She simply presented her data, which indicated that T. rex possibly had more neurons in its brain than baboons. This video even states that elephant brains contain more neurons than human brains. If anything, it's clickbait headlines like the one used for this video that confuse the general public on what the science actually says.

[@ngantnier]

Pretty sure my parrots are as smart as a baboon. Love those guys. Nacho and Honey.

[@maavet2351]

I wanted to write something about this theory being wild but then got overwhelmed by the subjectivity of inteligence and existance

[@Rune_Scholar]

Did you just suggest that the people who made the pyramids are traingle shaped?

[@Thaumh]

I can, off the top of my head, think of one "most probable" thing that T-Rexes would be using tools for; nest building.

[@windhelmguard5295]

my idea was that, when you're as big as a T-Rex, you can step over a fallen tree, when your prey animals may not. when you're as big as a T-Rex you're probably also strong enough to tear down a tree in order to intentionally place such obstacles in a desirable location, you may perhaps even drag a tree across the ground for a bit to accomplish this.

[@bustavonnutz]

Without knowing the actual gyrification index of the Tyrannosaur it's intelligence could range from that of a Cassowary to that of a Brown Bear. This paper is all guesswork.

[@rodrigopinto6676]

T. rex was the ultimate predator

[@Kid-A2]

*Sad media T-rex noises*

[@TacticalHyena]

small arm BIG SPEAR

[@zombiedad]

Lol. T-Rex trying to use any tool with it’s tiny arms. Lol. I know that is not the point but such a lovely image. Is nest building tool use?

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

The T Rex pyramids are in Agartha, we must immediately send an expedition to Antarctica to find the passage to the land of our people.

[@HollowDog5899]

Couldn't we just travel far away with slipspace when we learn it than watch dinosaurs with a super telescope due to going farther than when light from before their extinction, light time lag? cause if we have slipspace we definitely have that.

[@WildBillCox13]

Principal to the conversation, evolution doesn't care. It does not "move in a direction". It is merely doctrinal conviction related to survival of species after global or local disaster. When folks write as if evolution has purpose I get angry. Check the comments to see what I mean.

[@mario97br]

What about almost Lamarckian like epigenetic influences on gene activity and passing? And there is clearly non-random sexual selection. The concept of evolution only has no "direction" if one disconsiders clear influences that go further than random mutations and somehow formed survival of the fittest. The direction, in direct partner mating animals at least often, is usually towards "seems likely to be capable to well survive based on evolutionary determined physical or behavioral markers". To select for individuals that are bigger and stronger and thus better in ritualized combats, which translates to being likely to fend off enemies better, is a clear "direction" for example. This does not translate to every class of being of course, but usually there are selection mechanisms that would try to inherently create bigger organisms. And sometimes there are pressures, that lead to being small in favor, of course. But if small, then many usually, so life found a way to create a lot of biomass. It's complex, but not truly random.

[@OscarReyes-zh8ub]

Perhaps, but evolution also has a way to sneak in the blind spot of armchair evolutionists

[@mhdfrb9971]

Cry about it

[@Thronnos]

Professor Tyrannosaur. New manga LOL

[@IAkaksjdjtjeidi]

OMG SOMEONE WRITE THIS DOWN

[@dondragmer2412]

I can't see T. rex using a hatchet or stone ax with those arms. Why, when your jaws are that powerful?

[@SniperRed0092]

👍

[@ImNotGhostfacee]

even if the Trex was smart enough to use tools it had no reason to improve themselves when they were already set as the apex predator

[@Nadiki]

I dunno about it being as smart as a primate or using tools, that seems a little bit extreme. Forming small groups like a lion pride or a wolf pack and hunting large prey together would make more sense

[@bobkane432]

You could have just summed it up with a yes or no

[@ITzKidKoz]

Pyramids aren't human shaped either but I get the joke lol

[@emperorxander666]

Trex as smart as a Corvus is scary