Razer Kitsune vs. Custom Leverless - 100 Hour Review

[@momo.ru-kun]

You should raise your palm off the controller. The reason why piano players can play all 82 keys without mistakes is that they move their hands from side to side, this is the same practice with typing. People who type at 200wpm, you will always see their hands not resting on the palm rest. You can also see pros like Daigo always raise their palms off the controller. It is faster and precise. The vewlix layout is not working for you because you are resting your palms. When you are resting your palms in order to reach keys, you are twisting your wrist diagonally which caused injuries to most arcade players.

[@11zencade11]

Hey! Yeah you're right, that's definitely the "correct" way of doing it. My wife who grew up playing piano is coaching me into trying this. But it's not going well unfortunately. I mentioned this at 10:50: I find it VERY uncomfortable to raise my palm off the controller. It's probably from playing racket sports because I barely have this problem on my left hand (non-racket hand). Let's see how it goes! Have you ever had to make this adjustment? I'd appreciate any tips lol!

[@momo.ru-kun]

@@11zencade11 I was also a piano player, and never listened to my teacher. I played in the arcades with my palms resting on the board. I actually lost my sense of touch on my ring and pinky fingers for 6 months, but it was reversible since I was still young. When I got back, I applied what I learned from playing the piano and learned that I could hit every combo with my hands raised and never felt any discomfort since I am using the weight of my hands to press on the buttons without overworking my finger muscles. Whenever I see anybody resting their palms when playing, typing, etc. I always tell them to raise their hands cause it might cause long-term nerve damage.

[@11zencade11]

That helps mate. Let’s see whether I can do it too. Hopefully it goes better than the last couple of weeks have gone LOL!

[@julienb.5783]

Thank you for the review, decided to order it after watching. I like the layout, need something I can bring up to tournaments with, and a solid feeling I know I can always rebuy easily if I ever have an issue with it. and I like the next gen aspect of it in preparation for project L.

[@11zencade11]

That sounds awesome mate, you're welcome! I can't wait for Project L too! But first, Tekken 8 😍😄

[@nomaschalupas2453]

Your wife is the only one positioning her right hand correctly. You aren’t suppose to play with your fingers extended fully. There is no need to have a finger on every button for speed once you know all your moves by heart. That includes the layout, like you said you still get lost when you move your hand around. It’s just that you have not had enough time on it. Just think how long it takes someone brand new to typing to be able to do it without looking. This has less buttons, but the combinations, timing and variations of situations are limitless because each fight is different unlike typing, you know what comes next before you press it.

[@11zencade11]

I understand what you're trying to say, mate. But the whole point of the video is that if you have individual needs/playing preferences then a layout like this may not meet them. My goal was to get folks who are looking to purchase their first even leverless/fightpad to get to think about this before committing some serious 💰 There is no one "correct" way to position your hands. At the end of the day each positioning style has its pros and cons, and these pros and cons may differ from person to person given their unique ergonomics and preferences. The "correct" positioning is the one that you feel the most comfortable with and makes playing fighting games a sustainable hobby for you. That's literally what I try and demonstrate by using custom keyboards as an analogy. I have been playing on the Kitsune since it came out and I have more than 600 hours on it by now. I still play this way. I find it to be the most comfortable for me and whenever I have tried experimenting with other positions/styles (sometimes for months at a time) I've never liked it.

[@ry__]

This is the first time I've heard someone describe fighting games as "good for mental wellbeing" 😄

[@11zencade11]

LOL but it is! I've always found playing sports to be a (stress) release of sorts. And e-sports definitely count! It's one of the reasons I love and play racket sports. Smacking balls is such a satisfying feeling. If I'm having a bad day I can always rely on a friendly hit or match up to set me right. If not that then I can always rely on a solo hit on a squash court or a tennis wall, or practice some mix-ups and combos.

[@ry__]

@@11zencade11 I like the cut of your jib sir 🫡

[@jenkins464]

Excellent review. I have experienced discomfort when typing on a keyboard lately, which made me very conscious of the ergonomics of the peripherals I use on a daily basis. A preoccupation that made me prioritise the purchase of a split layout keyboard, for which I'm currently considering the new Voyager model from ZSA, and reconsider my enthusiasm for the Kitsune. As much as I would love to have a slim and portable controller to finally get serious about fighting games, wrist and hand pain would totally defeat that purpose, especially if the possibility of an uncomfortable experience comes with a hefty price tag. This state of affairs is disappointing because, as you mentioned, buying from Razer has the advantage of buying from established company that offers fast shipping and proper warranty, along with officially console licensing, all of which provides more peace of mind, compared to purchasing a niche product from a small company that operates entirely from overseas. Hopefully new products with less orthodox, but more practical layout choices will come to the market at some point. This video was definitely encouraging. Once again I appreciate your talent as a reviewer, hopefully you'll get more ideas for new videos in the future 👍

[@11zencade11]

Thanks for the kind words mate! I hear ya about the discomfort during typing; the Voyager looks like a superb choice. I have the Moonlander myself and I have to say the software is probably the best part about getting any keyboard from ZSA. I'm comfortable and confident in my coding skills so I have gone pretty deep with QMK but I honestly have to draw up every bit of will power in reserve to make adjustments to my setup. With ZSA it's all visual and I can make adjustments easily and quickly and move on with my tasks. One thing I should mention is that if you have discomfort typing then it doesn't necessarily mean that you will have discomfort with the Kitsune as well. The buttons on a fightpad are much bigger and far fewer than on a regular keyboard so hitting them is much easier. My best advice to you would be to go to a local if there is one near you and see if you can try a few leverless fightpads. I did that too and that was a big factor in my purchase decision. If PS4/PS5 compatibility is not that important to you then check out Mavercade's KeebBrawler-04; it looks super interesting with some interesting ergonomic choices that I approve of! There are things I would change about it but I would love to try it out to make a definitive judgement. If I ever get my hands on it then I'll put up a review of it on this channel. It's around $260 CAD (~$200 USD) but it's sold out 😭 I had some ideas for future videos: the first one touching on why I loved Tekken 4 so much, the second following up on my current fightpad prototype and the third about designing a custom console controller that I've been mulling over after getting a Victrix Pro BFG. Hopefully I can make those happen sooner rather than later 🤞🏽

[@jenkins464]

@@11zencade11 Nice, thanks for the suggestions 👍

[@MetalFacedGamer]

I just ordered one because I didn't know what other direction to go in and I know it would work One thing that I would apply to for you to add to this video are suggestions to look at online brands that are considered solid that way someone like me was at ground zero nose. I can just go by this and it will work potentially have other options to look into. This is the best video I've seen on this gamepad

[@11zencade11]

Thanks my guy! 🙏 I have other more in depth reviews coming up, including an update on my own controller and the Victrix Pro BFG. Stay tuned! With your earlier comment you mean that I should look at and mention other brands that folks should look at if they're looking to buy a Kitsune, correct? If that's the case then yes, I definitely should. At the time I made the video I was a noob in this space so I wasn't aware of many. But if you read the comments down below a lot of folks have suggested other online brands for me to look at (which I will be doing so in future videos). Glad my video helped you make your Kitsune purchase decision! 👍

[@MetalFacedGamer]

@@11zencade11 I don't even know how you understood what I wrote without punctuations. 🤣🤣 I just read back what I wrote and I'm like what the f*** am I talking about 🤣🤣🤣 I did it voice to text while driving and just assumed it came out right. The fact that you can decipher that makes you a legend good sir 🍻

[@such-ej]

Fully agree on traditional layout chapter. I switched (from keyboard!) to leverless controller few days ago and it feels super awkward. Left hand places nice, the same way like on a keyboard (asd + space), no problem here. But I don't know how to place my right hand correctly. Every position feels unnatural. I wish they rotate all right buttons block anticlockwise 15-20 degrees. Keep in mind that my controller has small 25mm buttons (+ extra buttons for thumbs) but even it doesn't help too much.

[@11zencade11]

Yeah, I've pretty much decided that I'll never play with a controller with small buttons. When I was at EVO this year I saw lots like that, and I'm sure this suits lots of folks, but I personally was surprised to see no one at the very least copy the Kitsune other than the Haute controllers. Those are my fav. so far as an alternative to the Kitsune, followed very closely by a Canadian maker called Mavercade.

[@HunnitAcreWoods]

I Got My Kitsune Recently And Experienced Hand Strain... To Eliminate This I Looked Up How To Use A Hitbox And Found Intro Videos The Creators Made 12 Years Ago... They Give The "Right Way" To Position And Move The Fingers Across The Leverless Layout And This Definitely Eliminated The Hand Strain, Now I Can Confidently Build The Hand Strength Without Hurting Myself...

[@11zencade11]

Hey, I found the videos you're talking about after reading your comment; it's a great resource! There's definitely some takeaways for me (and others) there. Thanks for pointing me in that direction 😄👍🏽

[@HunnitAcreWoods]

@@11zencade11 Salute! 💪🏾

[@danny_lee1337]

Damn nice review. About the licensing and not being worried about your custom controller being supported on a ps5. I myself am worried about the price of brook boards and converters having issues or introducing input lag (no matter what they claim, a converter will always bring additional latency and a youtuber "frame counting" made a video specifically about the brook converter). After some digging online I stumbled upon a new Hori Fight Stick Mini for PS5 and it costs just 60$. I was thinking about either modding it (to a wasd style layout for directional inputs) or like in your case I think it's board could fit great in a custom built controller (there are some videos online and reddit posts of people modding and dissasembling the old gen versions of those). Hope this will help with the board situation for your custom controller. I really want the Kitsune but it's damn expensive. Modding the uppermentioned Hori Fight Stick Mini would costs like 2-3 times less.

[@11zencade11]

Thanks mate! That's actually not a bad suggestion. I may give it a try later in Q2. I plan on making a follow-up video about my controller sometime this year, and this is a good little bit to add even more color to it (it's going to be another long vid lol). It's still a lot of work though; I think my point about the value proposition in the video still stands that not everyone wants to do the work required to get their ideal controller. The Kitsune represents the "good enough for most" category and its price is the cost of that convenience (and lack of suitable mass-market competition in the leverless controller space). I do feel ya mate; so many I've talked with want the Kitsune but as you said: it's damn expensive.

[@ItchyDek]

Great video dude. I want a keyboard JUST like yours for my mac ecosystem omg...and the base youre trying to build that holds an ipad mini GIMME GIMME. Lol that being said I'm a Plat Rank Juri and I love my Razer Kitsune and agree with most of your points. Good Job.

[@11zencade11]

Thanks mate!! 🙏🏽 I wasn’t too sure how folks were going to respond since I’m not too well-versed with the controller space to begin with. I’m just a nerd who likes things to work for me rather than the other way around. Glad to hear you feel the same way about most of the points I made! If you’re interested, I can put up the SVG files up on my GitHub once I’m done prototyping the base. Happy to answer any other questions you might have 🙂 I’m a platinum myself (Chun-Li)! 😁

[@JoeMurray5]

Thanks I’m really unsure between this or furin arcade / hit box. Kitsune looks so clean all black but wish you could change the caps

[@11zencade11]

I've had my eye on Furin Arcade's FRS for a while now! I don't have any experience playing with them but just based off their website and other reviews I've watched online I think it's a solid choice that is superior and/or matches the Kitsune in every way but two: official PS5 licensing and slim profile/portability. Those are a big deal for me so I would always prefer the Kitsune but honestly lots of folks in the FGC seem to do just fine without without PS5 licensing and you may not care about the ergonomics as much as I do (I know I wouldn't if I was younger). I wish I could change the caps too, but more importantly I wish I Razer offered spare switches and keycaps. Ultimately I decided that I'm not looking at the Kitsune most of the time anyways so the sleek and discreet all black look was a plus in my books. Hope this helps, all the best with your purchase decision mate! 👍🏽

[@SCORP1ONF1RE]

you have a 3 button cluster on the left and an 8 button cluster on the right. if you had 8 on each side, you could play pc shooters, classic platformers, and fighters, (lefty or righty) as well. ps: i love the palm buttons, that's a great idea! and i agree. i hate pinky buttons!

[@11zencade11]

That's an interesting idea, especially regarding playing fighters lefty or righty. I definitely think the industry doesn't do enough to accommodate lefty preferences! About the palm buttons: thanks mate! I haven't seen these anywhere else either.

[@xXHardRushXx]

fyi, i fightpad is not a leverless controller. a pad is anything that looks like a generic controller.

[@11zencade11]

…. You’re right!!! 🤦🏽‍♂️ Can’t believe this is the first comment saying this. Although, perhaps it’s obvious to folks what I actually mean even though I used the wrong term. I changed the title of the video though, thanks! 🙏🏽

[@Wast1980VG]

Great review! Maybe I'm an alien when it comes to 8 button viewlix/noir layouts, I never use the L1/L2 buttons (most of the time they are in my way when I want to rest my pinky...), I'm used to slam button combinations (LP+LK, MP+MK and so on) with my straight index and middle finger overlapping each other , or in MK there is a three button combination for (x ray moves). Doing it this way the buttons on my hitbox are too close together...

[@11zencade11]

Thanks mate! Yeah that’s a point I’ve heard a lot from folks since MK1 came out. I feel ya: I played Tekken mostly growing up so I’m used to 4 button layouts and 8 buttons are foreign to me too, perhaps they’ll always be lol! I haven’t played MK yet but I plan on getting it at Xmas.

[@dansolo6417]

due to changes to capcoms rules in tournaments they changed pretty much most of the advantages of leverless controllers. I found that really hard to adjust to using this controller on street fighter so probably use it when Tekken 8 comes out and stick to the cross up for sf6

[@11zencade11]

Yeah, I read up on that after your comment. I wasn’t aware so it was an interesting read 🙏🏽👍🏽 How do you like the cross up? Any notable advantages over a pure leverless controller?

[@dansolo6417]

@@11zencade11 directions on leverless is a nightmare for me I usually have to think before jumping which may make you lose a match so for me at least the only real advantage is not having to retrain the way you press directions (i found using jump button and a direction so awkward) during combos while having some of the hitbox advantages (although sf6 stopped most of these) the cross up also allows custom profiles that let you map drive impact and parry buttons closer to your more dominant fingers! Mostly just more used to stick rather than i think its better.

[@11zencade11]

Trueeeee…. I didn’t think about being able to map DI and DP buttons closer to your main digits. That’s a great point tbh. It’s got me interested in a cross up now! Maybe I will try it out if I can get one and follow up with a review 👍🏽

[@dansolo6417]

@@11zencade11 recommend it, u be able to react to di with di easier and parry(or dr) will also be easier

[@netskater4454]

Review was awesome 👏

[@11zencade11]

Thanks so much! I'm working on some other videos on controllers (and other things) that you should enjoy if you liked this! Stay tuned! 🙏😄

[@NneonNTJ]

No offense but I feel like you're placing your hands completely wrong, don't use your thumb to press the X but tilt your hand slightly, this way you can press X with index finger, square with middle finger, triangle with ring finger, slide middle finger down to hit circle. It's the best layout I've ever layed my hands on, it's perfect to the mm. Of course that's very subjective.

[@11zencade11]

Hey mate, yeah most people don't place their hands the way I do. As you point out, what's comfortable is subjective and unique to you. But that's exactly what I argue in the video, that if you have individual needs then this layout may/may not cater to them. I made the video so that others who may be in that camp could think a bit more critically if they were thinking of making a purchase. Having said that, I've been trying to experiment with different ways of positioning my hands, including in the same way you describe. Not sure if I can say that it is for me but I've definitely gotten to a place now where all I see is a list of pros and cons as opposed to 'the right/wrong way'. Personally, I love it when people tell me about the unique ways they position their hands. I really like getting a different point of view because it's really hard for me (or anyone really) to get a sense of someone else's pain points/comfort because my body and ergonomics are all I get to live with. It's awesome to hear that it's the best layout for you mate! Hopefully you can keep playing on it for years to come! 👍🏽 For me, my custom layout that I talked about seems to suit me the best. I've played around with the positioning a bit since the video but it's not drastically different. I'll make a follow-up video sometime soon.

[@Anklegator]

Super cool

[@11zencade11]

Thanks! 🙏🏽

[@Aries0098]

Man, if only these things were cheaper. I understand that since it's a niche market, they can charge a lot for these... but these are just a couple of keyboard switches they have with a different layout and doesn't feel like it justifies the price (same with other hitboxes/mixboxes at the same price point). Maybe if these things go down to a third of a price, then I might buy it. I'll stick with a keyboard still.

[@11zencade11]

Yeah mate, I whole-heartedly agree. I used a keyboard for a long time too until I decided that I wanted to play competitively (not for money and fame, just because I find it the easiest way to get better at whatever I want to get better at). Stick with the keyboard if you find that does it for ya. I don't see these going down in price anytime soon, even if there is more competition. Lots of people are willing to pay up for these things amongst pretty high demand so there's no logic in anyone else coming in with a competing product and offer it for less until this high demand subsides.

[@ninetendopesaitama2107]

The kitsune has many flaws. Get something cheaper and better. Something with hot swappable standard keyboard switches and smaller buttons. A raspi zero inside which can be updated and much more. Usb c cable. ☮️

[@Aries0098]

@@ninetendopesaitama2107I found an $80 one with Cherry MX Blacks. Really good. "FightBox" is the name.

[@ninetendopesaitama2107]

Kitsune is overpriced and has many flaws. Not interested. Proprietary switches. Hard to replace parts. Awful design from a big company for 300€/$. Get something cheaper and better. ☮️

[@11zencade11]

I get where you're coming from, mate. I've talked to lots who feel the same way. Totally legit point of view. But as I said in the video, value proposition is pretty dependent on individual circumstances. For me, the Kitsune made sense and I haven't looked back. What are you playing with these days? Any recommendations (a few people have suggested some cool alternatives in the comments)?

[@ninetendopesaitama2107]

@@11zencade11 sehawei haute 42 g16 and t16. Both hitboxes are cheaper and better than the kitsune. I have a collection of controllers and arcade sticks. Also they have raspi zeros inside and are compatible to everything. Razer could learn a thing or two. The kitsune is outdated compared. Imo. ☮️

[@11zencade11]

Wow, I had no idea about these! Fantastic option! Thanks mate, I'm really glad I'm came across this. I think I'll be getting one! I really like the button layout here (although I still prefer the layout on my custom controller I highlighted in the video the most, I haven't seen that anywhere else)