REACTING to *1x9 The Last of Us* IS JOEL THE VILLIAN??!! (First Time Watching) TV Shows

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Hayley and Stella are reacting to Ep. 9 (episode 9) of The Last of Us is Joel the villian? Joel and Ellie finally reach the Fireflies outpost and find out more information about the cure! Ellie undergoes life-threatening surgery and Joel comes to her rescue. Enjoy this first time watching TV Shows reaction to the season finale, the ending, of The Last of Us!
#firsttimereaction #thelastofus #joel #ellie #joelandellie #videogames #tvshows #tvshowreaction #firsttimewatching #moviereaction #zombiesurvival #thelastofushbo #hbomax #pedropascal
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[@whitenoisereacts]

Fans of the game, did this show do it justice??

[@nitrokid]

It's good! Better than most, anyway. Usually creators don't give too much shit when it comes to book or video game adaptation, but this one got a lotta heart!

[@sangeethlakshmanan7778]

absolutely...nailed it... beautiful ❤

[@vladimirvanvhorno357]

Yes, the series nailed it. But I don't think that Joel was wrong here. I think Marlene and the Fireflies were the villain here. You guys saw how they treat Joel after all he did for them. The game even goes further by saying that the Fireflies members asked Marlene to kill the smuggler aka Joel. That is why Joel turned to John Wick mode here. Just as Bill's letter said. They were both protectors of the one they love, and Bill said: God help any motherfucker who stands in our way. Hence he killed them all. If Marlene and the Fireflies treated Joel nicely, discussing and giving Joel and Ellie chance to decide on the operation as a civilized people, Ellie will surely choose to sacrifice herself, Joel will surely go against it. But Ellie can ask Joel to accept her decision like Frank did to Bill in episode 3. Another thing is that if Joel can have a warm and peaceful goodbye with Ellie, he will try to accept Ellie's decision with peaceful mind. The Fireflies were also in the wrong because of hurrying to do the brain surgery that will surely kill the only immune person. I think there are so many other ways to try to replicate the chemical messenger, killing the only person immune as fast as they could is a very stupid idea. Try to let Ellie grow mature and let her born a child, see if the child is immune or not, do other stuff first and kill her as the very last resort. Lasly, even if we say that the brain surgery can give them the cure, I am oretty sure that the Fireflies will use that to their own advantage, fulfilling their political agenda, and after I saw how they treated Joel, I believe they are no better than Kathleen's group. Surely they will take down FEDRA just like Kathleen's group. And for the very last thought I'm gonna leave here is try to think if they have the cure for the infection, how many "Davids" will they save? 😅

[@MTTamurex]

10 years ago those who played the game were asking the same questions that people are asking now. About Joel's decision and everything. Excellent game, excellent tv show. One of the best, if not the best adaptation of a game ever made.

[@ShesBats]

I think, yes. Considering that I leave out all the outbreak parts of it that I love, yes, they did a fair job. Did it hit me like the game? No. The game hit me emotionally at 20 out of 10 while the show was a seven. But they, the actors/actresses did such an amazing job. Seeing the game casts in there was a delight and a half, and I am ready for season 2.

[@ladrac198]

Don't forget that Joel and Tommy were together for a long time after the outbreak and Tommy is a combat veteran of Desert Storm. He could very well have taught Joel a thing or two.

[@Randomyoutubecommenter]

Tommy is the combat veteran!?

[@ladrac198]

@@Randomyoutubecommenter yeah, the sticker was on his truck in episode 1 and Joel and Ellie have a whole conversation in the truck driving to Kansas City about how Tommy joined the army right out of high school

[@aesdomain8363]

Yeah.. this is probably why Tommy is my Favorite Most of us know when Joel's ruthlessness rub on Tommy

[@mr.k1611]

Combat veteran does not mean he was a weapon. The fact that he survived and returned home is because he was at the back and neve4 went frontline.

[@IR4TE]

@@mr.k1611 because people from the front can't survive? the fuck?

[@davidreisinger9272]

Marlene and her Fireflies wouldn't accept a no from Ellie, and Joel wouldn't accept a yes.

[@Fangtorn]

Actually, I think if the Fireflies had asked Ellie she would've said yes and Joel would've had to accept it. I don't see him shooting up the hospital if Ellie is consenting to the surgery, that would mean he'd basically have to kidnap her, and part of the reason he lies to her is it isn't enough to save her life he also wants to save their relationship.

[@jonathanpowell7256]

There were originally 10 episodes this season but the producers edited together episodes 1 & 2 to create the pilot.

[@TukaihaHithlec]

If Stella happens to read this, they’re not “voice actors” for the games. They don’t just do the voice, they came up with most of their character development and performed everything, they just aren’t the faces.

[@kaleyrose47]

No one is the villain or the hero-everyone is grey. Love makes everyone so good and terrible things!

[@skeezaworkan]

Marlene should explain the stakes and chances to Ellie and give her the choice, and at least a few days to make a decision. Then Ellie should have the chance to talk to Joel and to explain to him her decision. Marlene did nothing of that, she took the choice from Ellie and she pushed Joel to do the only thing he was programmed to do. And then Joel lied to Ellie, 'cause he had hope to save her the guilt. So, everything that happened was IMO Marlene's fault. She betrayed Elie, she betrayed Anna, she betrayed Joel, and she betrayed humanity, because she was so blinded by her "noble cause" to save the people that she forgot about the humans.

[@skeezaworkan]

@The Terminator the same way how you see forest but you don't see trees.

[@burstbeat]

I think Joel's train of thought is along the lines of: she's a child that can't consent to this huge of a decision. He's just trying to get her to adulthood so she can make an informed decision later. Marlene understood why Ellie shouldn't make this choice either. Both of them can be considered wrong.

[@bcross9109]

fascinates me how much people get hung up on it being a choice for Ellie to make, like the key to human survival is something the Fireflies can leave up to the whims of a 15 year old. Like yeah, it would be nice to do, and she probably would consent, but it literally doesn't matter. If you believe a vaccine is possible, you cannot just let her go, that would be INSANE???

[@skeezaworkan]

@@bcross9109 Well, you assume that they are able to make real cure, that they are able to reproduce it, that they are able to distribute it and that they won't weaponize it to make a social power shift. And all of that with the assumption that the humanity is even worth saving. But you're right. Marlene did what she believed is best and she didn't look back. That's fair point. I just say, she paid for her poor choice.

[@Dave3Dguy]

The Fireflies would never risk Ellie saying "no", so why bother to ask? For them, there was only a yes, consent or not. Fairness to Ellie was never part of their equation.

[@nitrokid]

I mean, if a father (or father figure) is a villain for defending his daughter, I guess I would be a villain too. And I'd do it again. If the Fireflies think it's okay to cut open a child without their consent (for a potentially good reason) then it's okay to kill the Fireflies to save the child. Fair game.

[@ErikaAriza13]

I get your point and I think I might do the same, but let's not forget that Joel knew Ellie would have chosen otherwise. His silence when Marlene called him out made it pretty clear. So the fireflies made a huge mistake by not telling Ellie the whole plan, they had no right to choose for her. Neither did Joel. The plan, at least the way they showed it (girl comes here and, with no previous test goes to surgery) frankly sucked. But Joel killing everyone wasn't good either. And his lies about it killed any trust Ellie had "for?" him. In an ideal world, they could have talked about it, being aware of the options, their consequences, and also how survivor's guilt played a part on how eager Ellie might have been on sacrificing herself for a plan with no structure...

[@nitrokid]

@@ErikaAriza13 Yeah. Ellie seems like already had an inkling of what is required of her. Not sure if Marlene implied such a thing on their first meeting or if Ellie figured out by herself, but she's not stupid. I don't remember the part that Joel knew Ellie would choose sacrifice, but I guess for the sake of argument, he would, because he knows how Ellie is. The whole story will be different if Ellie is an adult (say, in her 20s or aomething) and actually volunteered for the procedure. But then again, this is the point of the story. How far would you go to save your loved ones? Most people would go Joel's route, and the others would go the other route. Nothing wrong with that. It's post-apocalypse. The world is already broken anyway 😂

[@OlmanWillo]

@Erika Ariza we don't know what Elle would have chosen. Remember she assumed she'd survive the production of the cure. Thought they'd be taking blood or something. So it's still ambiguous as to whether she'd choose to die for a potential cure. Remember the cure isn't a sure thing, and they only have 1 sample so they'd have to get it right the first time. Chances of that are fairly low. So if they gave her all the info would she really choose to die on the chance they get it right in shitty facilities?

[@MarkusR144]

Ellie said in this episode that she is gonna go with Joel after they were finished. She also talked about what they are gonna do after they are done with the Fireflies in E06. Joel can either go by what he thinks Ellie could maybe want, or he can go by the actual words she said to him and everything she said indicated that she thought she was gonna make it through this alive. Besides, even if Joel is 100% sure that Ellie would want to die: You still ask! If you don't, that's murder and you shouldn't be surprised if you're killed instead.

[@OlmanWillo]

@Markus R he knows she thinks she'll survive it yes... he doesn't know what she'd decide with the new information. No one gave her the chance to make that choice. But in saving her the choice was already made since the surgeon and staff were dead.... he just shouldn't have lied about it

[@phoenixrising8231]

Joel wasn't in the military. Tommy was. As far as Ellie's consent. She's a minor. Plus shes traumatized from her torture by David & what she had to do to escape. Compounded by a heavy dose of survivors guilt and savior complex. Joel did the right thing. And the clues are in the show. Ellie's mom lied about Ellie being infected. By saying she cut the umbilical cord before the attack. When she clearly cut it after being bitten. Also she left a mark on her throat when she held the knife there. Somehow Joel had a wound to his neck. Standing with Ellie on the mountain top. In the game, Ellie's mom writes a letter to Ellie. Telling her to find a purpose in her life. Joel basically tells her the same thing. As a famous philosopher once wrote: if you kill a child to save humanity. Humanity isn't worth saving. Having a cure won't cure the broken world & people of this world. It's like when the world fell into the Dark Ages after the fall of the Roman Empire. The good will have to overcome the evil through time and persistence.

[@anime_girly7340]

💯

[@Rob_Infinity3]

Before the show began in January. I was sceptical about Pedro and Bella being cast in the lead roles. Mainly because I was unfamiliar with them as actors and had my own ideas in mind for the roles. But Pedro and Bella have more than won me over with their portrayals of Joel and Ellie. Troy Baker's voice in episode 8 is very different to his voice as Joel in the game and to his regular, real life voice. 10:33 - Marlene probably took a more direct root to Salt Lake City. Whereas Joel & Ellie went to SLC via Kansas City and Jackson, Wyoming. Joel lost his daughter in the beginning of the outbreak. He then spent 20 years keeping everyone he knew at arm's length. Then along came Ellie who he gradually developed a bond with her through their experiences on their travels (they spent about a year travelling from Boston to SLC) and let her in past his walls. So she became like a daughter to him and he couldn't face losing another daughter. When I played the game, I was 100% with Joel in his choice to stop the surgery and save Ellie any way he had to. But when watching this episode. I was and still am so conflicted about it.😢

[@rockzhard2009]

trust me ladies if and when you have kids, you'll probably find all the moral philosophy of your college coarses goes right out the window. you will do whatever you have to do to protect your child. it will always be the good of the one outweighs the good of the many. because the absolute hardest thing for a parent to do is outlive their offspring.

[@kstewfan93]

They both took away Ellie’s right to choose

[@daykon6843]

Joel didn’t take anything, how was Ellie suppose to make a choice when the fireflies didn’t let her have one, it’s not like Joel could reason with the fireflies to let them give her a choice. Joel was in the right. When choice is not given life is the only option.

[@Wanderersea]

The fireflies put Joel through Hell just to deliver Ellie to them when at first, he was apprehensive and did not want to have anything to do with Ellie. Along the way, he found a daughter in the journey and he swore to protect her at all cost. How is that making Joel the Villain?. Marlene was the villain. She wanted to find a cure and in order to get that cure, she was willing to sacrifice Ellie. Ellie never had a choice. She thought she had the cure but she never thought that they would kill her in the process. Joel and Ellie had a conversation before going to the hospital that after everything was all said and done, she will follow him anywhere. That right there shows you that Ellie thought she was going to live. Marlene is pure evil.

[@bicranium7198]

@@daykon6843 Joel took Ellie's choice away when he decided to kill everyone and lie about it. Killing the people he did to get to Ellie was one thing. That was basically just him taking Ellie's choice back from the Fireflies. But then he took her choice away for himself when he killed the doctor and Marlene then proceeded to lie to Ellie about it all. Really the only person who didn't do something wrong in the end was Ellie because she was unconscious.

[@MrSoBitchy]

she was 14, kids like that can't make these choices

[@houseofaction]

@@bicranium7198 said doctor wasn't even a doctor. jerry has a Bachelor of Science in Biology. so no doctorate in anything so not a doctor and people with a Bachelor of Science in Biology are not vaccinoligists or surgeons he wouldn't have suceeded in creating anything from her as it wouldn't work as she isn't actually immune. per actual vaccinologists statements in real life

[@SplinteredX]

im assuming a lot of joels marksmanship/combat skills came from tommy who was a veteran and in the military so i assume he was taught a lot of that by him plus just experience dealing with living 20 years in the apocalypse

[@CutieYoli]

I just don’t think it’s ok to ask a depressed 14 year old girl suffering from survivors guilt to die for the sake of the world. Don’t sit right with me. But I wish Joel didn’t lie

[@PlasticPariah]

I absolutely loved the show. The experience rescuing Ellie in the game hit me really hard. I just remember feeling heartbroken that I wouldn't get to say goodbye to her or even see her again. The fight leading to the operating room takes a WHILE and I just remember thinking this is taking too long, I'll never see her again. It was tough. The only choice you get is to take the scalpel from the surgeon and stab him in the neck with it or shoot him (or torch him with a flamethrower if you want). You can't spare him. You also get a choice to kill the nurses or just ignore them. Joel chooses to spare them in the show

[@TheKiza02]

11:44 This was why Marlene was so wary of Joel, this whole scene was why he has such a reputation, because when he switches it off, he's a fucking reaper

[@e.c.1975]

I did not play the game, but from what it looks like the writers really respected the fans/gamers who loved it. They tried to be as accurate as they could. Joel’s relationship with Ellie was beautiful to watch. I can’t wait to watch the next season. Great reaction ladies 🤍

[@dannybob42]

There is no right answer to the Trolley Problem, objectively sacrificing Ellie feels like for the greater good, but there was no guarantee that it'd work, they were desperate enough to cut a child's brain out on a theoretical gambit, and it just wasn't enough for Joel. Ellie was his child, months spent with her, fighting with her, keeping her alive, finding a new reason to live because of her, he wasn't going to let her go especially since the Fireflies never told her what they were going to do. To Joel, the world is already fucked up, a 'cure' doesn't fix the world it just makes there be less infected: FEDRA still exists, Raiders still exist, Cannibals still exist, those systems don't just end because there's no Cordyceps, and seeing Tommy thrive in a community shows that there is survival in this world Sacrifice one for the world is one thing, but sacrifice your daughter so that a fucked up world may have a cure is a different story In the game you don't get given a choice no, there is only one ending and it's this one. Would've loved to see them do a choice ending though, just to see how it would've panned out.

[@houseofaction]

there is in fact a guarantee that it wouldn't work, according to actual vaccinoligsts a vaccine from ellie would be impossible

[@joits]

Marlene wanted to save the world... but so did Joel. The difference is, Ellie and Tommy are Joel's world so in his mind, he did save the world. He just doesn't give a shit about anyone else. Can't fault him for that because the game and tv show set up his character to be this way. I just wish he was honest with Ellie. Either he was trying to "protect her" or was afraid of what Ellie might think of his choices, he just made things so much worse. They had just had that amazing moment where, without directly saying it, Ellie and Joel admitted to the other that they loved each other... and for Ellie to realize that Joel was not being truthful, even after asking him to swear on it, it kinda broke her a bit. You can see it in her face and she's not sure how to process the fact that Joel isn't being truthful with her but she obviously wants to believe him because what is the alternative. She doesn't want to be alone and Joel clearly loves her which is why we get that "okay" even though its really not.

[@gregwillett2710]

If marleen was as certain as she claimed that she knew Ellie would sacrifice herself - then it should have been no problem letting Ellie keep her autonomy in the matter SHES THE "CONTRACTORS" DAUGHTER FOR KRISTS SAKE !!

[@BubbleBunny514]

They honestly should have allowed Joel and Ellie a chance to find out what it all entailed, and allowed Ellie to make a real and informed choice. She was the only one who would have been able to get Joel to accept it, if she chose to sacrifice herself for 'the greater good'... They didn't even know if it would work. There was zero reason for them to rush it, the cordyceps infection had been around for decades, what is one more day, or even a week more? Joel is a deeply traumatised person, who finally, after 20 years, found something and someone to live for. She gave him hope, she gave him family, and she gave him purpose. After the months of travel and hardships they had been through, they didn't even give them a chance to say goodbye. I'm not saying he made the right choice, because Ellie should always have been the one in control of deciding her own fate, but they certainly bought their own destruction on themselves by the cruel and clinical way they handled it. The Fireflies are no better than FEDRA or Kathleen's group.

[@daven4297]

Marlene not only taught the voice of Marlene herself in the game, but also took part in motion capture shots, and lent her image to the game version of Marlene. Marlene is 100% Marlene. It was similar with Ashley Johson, who plays Elie's mother, she played Elie herself in the game TLoU. (motion capture scene) and provided the voice of Elie, but without using her image.

[@davidpeebles5448]

20:00 to him he didn't sacrifice the world, to him he saved his world, he would have to sacrifice his world to save those around him, morality is such a huge premise in the game I feel.

[@notsureaboutme]

The final 2 minutes were exacly the same as the end of the game, it was brilliant. In the game, you as a player do not have the choice to either let go or save Ellie, you only help Joel do what he wants and that's it, the first time i played the game i didn't think much of the end other than the thought of ''this will definetly come back to him'', i was mostly glad that they were both alive but also very sad that Joel lied to Ellie like that... betraying they're whole relationship and at the same time i also understood his actions of going rampage to save her (fun fact you can use a flamethower to kill the doctor in that scene). In the second game we get to see how every action has a rection, which changed my mind about the first game as well... i must say that the second season will be much sadded and brutal, even if they adapt it differently, the history itself is way much more 'miserable' than the the first part, tears will happen on a regular basis lol

[@kay-jay1581]

Oh how I remember this ending divided people for a while. To be fair pretty much all of the humanity left in the world was really awful. Like many other people theorize and shares their thoughts. Most of the humans left around the Inited States where completely awful. I honestly thought that they really weren’t worth Ellie’s life for a “cure”. Plus Marlene really should have just talked to Ellie. She purposely send her to the operation because she knew there was a chance that Ellie would refuse.

[@jhornacek]

"To be fair pretty much all of the humanity left in the world was really awful." Most of the people living in quarantine zones aren't awful. They're just normal people trying to live their lives. Bill and Frank weren't awful. That couple Joel met before he got to Tommy's. Everyone in Tommy's commune. There are a lot of good people left in this world.

[@d3l3tes00n]

And who do they think is going to control this "cure/vaccine," right? You know the folks in need the most aren't going to get it.

[@Ghostfriend7100]

Not to mention, everyone keeps acting like the cure would be for everyone. The Fireflies would have kept the cure, assuming they could even make one, and used it for their gain (take down Fedra/put up their version of the government they want). They would have only helped their people. Fedra would do the same if they got their hands on it. I honestly don't think they could come up with the cure as they probably have no more specialists and what ones they do "have" wouldn't have practical knowledge. My guess is that they are relying on ex med students and medical books. All they have are mad scientists at this point and their immediate action is to kill Ellie and dissect her versus running labs, tests, etc before the more invasive, one time only approach. On another reaction channel, someone pointed out that the surgeon in the show, assuming his approximate age being around Joel's, would have still either been in medical school or just finished (not had time to then start the 5+ years of training in their specialty) when the world ended.

[@madmonkey545]

I think that everyone left in the world might not all have access to a cure maybe just the QZ’s in the US. I dont think it would ever stop raiders and save the world in that way, it would just make people immune to the bite/virus not being torn apart. Another thing is, everyone has their own civilizations going. No one would ever come together again. So her dying for a cure that might not work…idk if it’s worth it. I wish Ellie had a choice at least, but everyone took it away from her.

[@scotter23]

You don’t get a choice in the game. You save Ellie every time and it forces you

[@mzcescapie]

Marlene was so set on the idea of saving "all of humanity" that she ignored Ellie's humanity. That was always my biggest issue with the Fireflies. I think if Ellie had made the choice to die (which has it's own issues but I digress) then I would be okay with her sacrifice, but intentionally killing someone to save others has always been a huge moral issue for me. The end of the game/show is basically a large scale trolley problem, and I have always considered inaction resulting in the deaths of more people to be more morally sound than direct action resulting in the deaths of less people. People dying/getting infected is a truth about this world; while it is very sad, those deaths are not moral failures, simply acts of nature. I will say though, while I have issues with the Fireflies killing someone to save others, the same argument could be made against Joel: Ellie was going to die and he decides to kill other people to save her. But the circumstances are different for Joel I believe. While people getting infected/dying via infected is sad, like I said it is not a moral failure, so while I think it is morally important to TRY and stop the infection, failing to do so is not immoral (especially if that failure is because you refuse to sacrifice someone). But Joel sees (as I do) that killing Ellie (aka not her sacrificing herself but the fireflies deciding to sacrifice her) IS a moral failure, and he has an obligation to stop it. Whether or not Joel still would have killed all of those Fireflies if Ellie had actually been given a choice, we will never know. I think he still might have, and would have been in the wrong there, but in this current circumstance he has more of a moral high ground than the Fireflies do. But also! My perspective is very academic, and doesn't include her age, or interpersonal relationships, or the state of the world outside the infection (rapers/raiders/etc.), so there is an ever greater discussion to be had, which is why this story is so great! :)

[@TerryYelmene]

Of the dozens and dozens of reacts I have seen, this is some of the best, most nuanced 'Joel's trolley dilemma' commentaries given here. Truly a GREAT react!

[@KittyHatProductions]

Stella, to answer your question, in the game, when you're playing as Joel, trying to fight your way back to Ellie, it has to be hands down one of the most emotionally investing moments in a video game. My experience was this: the moment I got into the surgery room, I literally did not hesitate to kill the doctor because I was that invested in making sure that Ellie lived. I was also worried the game might give me a choice to give up or keep fighting as one last little "surprise". But it was only after I beat the game and finally watched spoiler reviews and listened to people who also played that I found out you didn't have ANY option but to kill the surgeon. And I was like: Wow. What a feat. That's how intense it was playing the game when it came out. When you're that deep into it, you KNOW that what you're doing is wrong in the grand scheme of saving the world, but literally nothing else matters to you at that point. Hands. Down. It was one of most powerful moments I ever had playing a game.

[@abhijeetashtikar]

If anyone is to be blamed now or later in season2 is Marlene & not Joel. If that doesn't happen whatever showrunners present is a simply a stupidity. Here's why - Joel's actions are direct result of Marlene's decision to hurry up things. Firstly did he have that opportunity to give Ellie a choice? They are saying that Joel didn't give her a choice & took away the chance to save humanity. Which is logically & factually wrong. Joel gets to give Ellie a choice only in one scenario - If Marlene told Ellie about the killing surgery, Ellie said yes to die willingly & is allowed to meet Joel. Then & only then he can allow or deny Ellie's wish. So Marlene didn't allow any of that. So as a parent Joel is left with only one thing to do & he did that thing. If Ellie says Yes & even then Joel kills everyone then & only then he is to be blamed.. Would Ellie say Yes to die? Maybe yes. But Marlene doesn't give that chance to Elli, therefore we don't actually know what Ellie might have said 'before' the surgery (Whatever she may say afterwards is her afterthought considering whatever happened). So before the surgery whatever Joel does is a direct consequence of Marlene's actions.. Never in the series Ellie was expecting to 'die'. She was hoping to get it done (maybe blood samples, tests etc.) & then go away to live with Joel happily. Why so much hurry from Marlene's part? They waited for 20 years, what's another couple of months? If someone just tells me that my child is being 'murdered' without their knowledge, I can't even see them & I was supposed to walk away from the premises; then no matter what the greater purpose of that murder is.. I would do the exact thing as Joel did! If HBO ignores this simple fact in next season & decides to blame Joel instead of Marlene then they will have very angry reactions from the parents. Protecting the children from the 'predator' is a primal animal instinct. The only thing I don't like on Joel's part is that he lied to her. IMO he should have been upfront about why he did it. Ellie might have disagreed with his actions but she definitely would have understood his motives (selfless/selfish love for his daughter) better. Was he afraid that killing of these many people will just feed her survivor's guilt? Or he is afraid that he will have to justify his actions? Or under her current PTSD influence will she see Joel as a bad person & end the relationship, or even worse take her own life?

[@jhornacek]

Marlene thinks Joel is the same man she knew back in Boston - the smuggler who doesn't care about anyone. She thinks she will tell Joel about their plans for Ellie and he'll say "Whatever, where's my payment?" She has no idea that Joel has bonded with Ellie. And Ellie really has no choice here. If Marlene had offered her the choice and she said "no" do you really think the Fireflies would accept that and let her leave? They would go ahead with the procedure no matter what. So whether Marlene told Ellie the truth or not, they were going to go through with the surgery.

[@ArethaVGuedes]

I don't remember if in the game is given a choice, but I think everyone would save her. The connection is bigger, u r Joel and sometimes u r Ellie too. Besides, kill her is not for sure that the vaccine will be made. We dont know not even if the doctor would discover how she got immune. And in a world like this, there is no villian, just hard decisions,

[@jhornacek]

In the game it is presented as a certainty why Ellie is immune and that they can create a vaccine from the growth in her brain.

[@yanksrgreat]

how is stella always this gorgeous

[@catindigo9907]

Would you sacrifice someone you love based on the chance that her death might save others, even knowing they don't have the ability to get the cure to everyone.? Their is no worldwide distribution any more. It's not an ethical question you can base on normal standards.

[@ITACA841]

Amazing reaction and conversation ❤❤❤

[@frances3064]

Yes Ellie’s mom is the elite voice from game which is cool

[@tengenforger4944]

Joel did the right thing

[@iRival20]

Since Joel being 56, raised in Texas (so probably learning guns I'd guess) Brother that was a veteran and plus surviving 20yrs in the outbreak being a raider and then smuggler is why his skills are honed and he's capable

[@lc8155]

Super fun thanks!

[@RMBittner]

In case it hasn’t already been said, the game offers no choice at the end, beyond whether you just kill the doctor or also kill all of the nurses. (You might have heard talk about the game “Life Is Strange,” which does give you the choice at the end to save a town or just save the one you love.)

[@Damiana_Dimock]

I feel that the only thing Joel did wrong was lie to Ellie at the end, (in the 3rd act, after carrying her out of the “O.R.”.) The fact that you can so easily go, “the trolley problem!,” indicates the problem it’s been applied to is oversimplified. For instance, this abandoned hospital is not a fully functional CDC, à la The Walking Dead, it’s a single doctor and two nurses surrounded by a group of paramilitarized reactionaries. A question I keep bringing up when people are like, “he killed a doctor!,” as if that’s a line not to cross, “how do we know he wasn’t a Doctor Josef Mengele (or Sidney Gottlieb or General Shiro Ishii,) of the post-apocalypse?” *I add those other guys because people are quick yo suggest Mengele was an anomaly. Point is, we know absolutely nothing about the procedure or the production and distribution of this so-called cure. We don’t even know who is higher up in the Firefly chain of command than Marlene, because remember she’s not like the president of the Fireflies, she’s just the leader of the Boston faction. We have what is pretty much an assurance from Marlene that Ellie will die: Step One, kill Ellie; Step Two, ???; Step Three, save the world. Yes, the Fireflies left Ellie no choice. A lot of people had suggested Joel makes them wake her up as have them ask her what she wants, and while I am sympathetic to that suggestion (1) Joel was able to do what he did because he moved methodically through the building killing one-by-one, the second it becomes a hostage situation, well just watch any film with a hostage situation-not good for the person taking hostages, who would have been Joel, (Joel Q, is that something?) (2) We have to have a conversation about consent, (a concept foreshadowed by ep.8,) can Ellie as a 14-year-old give consent to go through with the procedure? Are you asking her to k*ll h*rs*lf for a possibility of creating a cure, (see the book I Am Legend and every adaptation except for that god-awful trash-fire made in 2007 starring Will Smith-It fully missed the point of the story.) “Although we have no evidence aside from a hypothesis, and you’re the only person we can test it on-so even scientifically it’s not very sound because you cannot repeat the test-and we hope that if we’re correct the powers that be in this world and the structures of power will come together and allow us to mass produce and distribute the very possible cure we might be able to create from your sacrifice, the same cure that will enable those power structures to crumble as we return to the ‘before times.’ So, what do you say, are you ready to be the sacrificial lamb we really hope will finally please God? Pretty please?” I also fear that not only has Ellie had the proverbial weight of the world put upon her but she is also dragging around a lot of baggage and survivor’s guilt. If a therapist were to sit with her and ask, (like one is supposed to before a trial in many cases,) and work through the whole situation to determine if she fully grasps where she is mentally and how that may affect her understanding of the consequences of her choices, were she to be presented with a “choice,” could she really clear that hurdle? How much consent does Ellie actually have to give?

[@KERRYPIKE]

Excellent episode that was very good.

[@Jaywifh]

The show did it justice for the most part. Absolutely. It was brilliant. There was no choice to save Ellie. The story was linear. However, what's powerful is feeling forced into that uncomfortable decision. To face people who are trying to cure the world, kill them.. to save her. You are going through them but.. very uncomfortably. And... Very few experiences in life can match that type of... scene. It's... impressive as hell. And it's even more intense in Part 2

[@dmcg7949]

According to 1 of the Writer's, The last of us is the story of the horrible things we will do for love. That's kind of my favorite way to look at it.

[@TheDaringPastry1313]

First episode had a bumper sticker on Joel's truck that said special forces or something. (someone corrected me and it was Tommy's truck, but later Joel gets confirmed he was military in an episode). The fact that Ashley Johnson, the original performance capture actor that played Ellie in the game, literally gave birth to Ellie in the show is crazy poetic. They already said season 2 will be 2 seasons. Another actor that is in this episode that was in the game is Laura Bailey. She played one of the OR nurses in the game and she was near Ellie's head by the bed in the OR on the show. She also had another roll in The Last of Us 2, but I can't go into that. Even if they could magically figure out a cure by sacrificing Ellie, there is no way they could distribute it to the world. Also, they would probably use it to become an even more powerful organization. Loved Bella's Ellie in the HBO series, but man Ashley Johnson's voice and delivery was so good. Example in this final episode when Joel was talking to Ellie at the end. Bella's performance felt rushed and less inflection on words whereas Ashley's was delivered slower and stressed syllables more. Y'all should find a video looking at comparisons from the game and TV show and react to it. Like the 10-15 min opening scene of the series and the end scene with Ellie waking up in the truck until the end.

[@kageyama1083]

The truck was Tommy’s, and Joel confirmed Tommy was the combat vet in episode 6

[@TheDaringPastry1313]

@@kageyama1083 Ahh my bad, but that still makes sense. Didn't realize the truck was Tommy's

[@sailordoll1221]

I completely agree about the line delivery

[@scotter23]

Yes there was a zoo in the game

[@jhornacek]

Outside the building where you see the giraffes, there is a bus shelter with an advertisement for the local zoo saying that giraffes have just arrived.

[@lincolnhawk5650]

Joel did the right thing. Screw the Fireflies.

[@Phelddagrif1998]

I didn't see any comment about this so I am going to mention it. But the giraffe in the giraffe feeding scene, is a real giraffe that was allowed to be used to the show from a local zoo in the area that episode was being filmed. When I watched it I for sure thought that was cgi but after reading some info about that scene I learned that they were able to rent it from the zoo under very specific circumstances. I thought that was just really cool. Also I learned that the acting in that scene was basically improvised because they only had the giraffe for a few hours and they shot that scene only a couple of times. Bella laughing while the giraffe stuck its tongue out for more leaves and Pedro smiling is all genuine reactions. They were filming but from what I read Neil and Craig didn't give them specific direction on what to say or do. It just happened. Anyway I just wanted to share that. ❤ If you are lost in the darkness, find the light. 🔥🪰

[@kaleyrose47]

Rewatching these reactions because I’m missing the show! I think Joel lies to Ellie for 2 reasons. 1.) Selfishly, he can’t lose again. He probably knows Marlene is right-had Ellie been told the ramifications of surgery, she would have probably consented to dying. And he can’t bear to lose the girl who has finally brought him a sense of healing after 20 years. 2.) He lies to her to protect her from herself. He senses she’s traumatized and showing signs of depression, and probably tells her his story of attempting as a way to say, “I’ve felt that way before too, and it’ll be okay and get better.” He’s probably worried that if he tells her the truth, given Ellie’s mental state, she may become suicidal and try to hurt/harm herself. He carries that burden for her.

[@emanymton713]

Is it villainous to save a life from a 100% fatal procedure that isn’t 100% guaranteed to help anyone? If yes, then Joel is a villain. If no… Joel can still be a villain. Villains can still do good things for the wrong reasons… nothing is *ever* black and white.

[@mauricemoyes402]

Except for when people put pineapple on their pizzas. That's the blackest of the black.

[@pepe-silvia]

Joel is not a villain, but his actions will have consequences, no matter what his motivation was.

[@jhornacek]

Joel killed a bunch of people that were trying to create a cure/vaccine to save the world. You can agree with his choice to save Ellie but he is definitely a villain here.

[@gregwillett2710]

15:18 - Joel is indeed a combat veteran

[@PopQuizHotShot23]

The cure had more value in the game because of the spores giving another way of getting infected so I agree with Joel's decision even more in the show. The cure isn't going to make that much difference to this world.

[@chandlermorgan708]

What's worst? Lying or taking away people's choices?

[@emanymton713]

Lying is always worse. All he needed to do is say to Ellie the procedure would 100% kill you and we can’t guarantee that it will help anyone else.

[@jadendupreez8864]

Taking away choices is worse

[@delmarethehybrid9307]

In my oppinion, absolutely taking away someone's choice; at least sometimes lying can be used to protect people, but it wouldn't take away their choice - they choose how to respond to that information :)

[@jeaneb]

sadly, joel did both 😢. but in all honesty, if i were in his shoes, apart from the not confessing at the end (cuz that shit comes back), i probably woulda done the same thing for someone i love.

[@tylerhackner9731]

Yesss

[@ks5526]

The fireflies made the decision to commit murder. They chose to murder a child and it was based off of a maybe. Joel did the right thing. Yes Joel killed people that had surrendered or were incapacitated to some extent. Taking prisoners in that scenario just isn’t an option and wastes valuable time that Ellie does not have. Remember those people made a choice. As for Joel’s skills one does not need to have a background in military or law enforcement to develop combat skills. They can absolutely be learned and the world you see in this show creates students out of everyone. Take a look at Lucas Botkin from T-Rex arms. He has zero military or law enforcement background but he dedicated himself to the craft. Now military and law enforcement seek him out for training. I am a Combat Infantryman with multiple deployments and can tell you first hand that around 98% of the military don’t know tactics and are terrible with firearms but most civilians I know with firearms are far more capable and train regularly. I’d have done the same thing but I wouldn’t have let those nurses in the operating room go. They made a choice and get to enjoy the consequences. Letting them go interferes with operational security and therefore endangers Ellie. That’s just reality as far as this fictitious story is concerned.

[@Allexstrasza]

17:40 you're thinking about Life Is Strange. *spoiler* In the end of that game you have the choice between saving the town (and possibly the world) or saving Chloe's life.

[@agent7971]

He's not a villain, he's fucking badass

[@jnne4048]

recommending "hoodwinked", "racing stripes", "flushed away", "the boxtrolls", "the dark crystal" (reboot series and film), "mowgli: legend of the jungle", "watership down" (reboot series), "the book of life" and "a monster in paris"

[@jhornacek]

Regarding Ellie not really having a choice here, in the game in the hospital when you're trying to save Ellie, you can find recordings that Marlene made where she describes how she was asked to authorize the surgery on Ellie, but that it was just a formality - the Fireflies were not going to let Marlene say "No, this is my best friend's daughter, we're not going to kill her." If she had said that the Fireflies would have gone ahead with the surgery anyway, and they probably would have replaced Marlene as their leader.

[@lostpompeylad]

1st episode, it showed you that Joel was a desert storm veteran on his truck bumper.... if the fireflies had shown Joel Ellie making a decision it might have ended differently... also in the game there was no definite cure... from Ellie... also if the fireflies made a cure would they have given it to everyone? They are a terrorist group or would they have used it to control people.....

[@houseofaction]

no he wasn't tommy was

[@TheDoctorIWho]

Technically the only lie Joel told was, that there were other immune people. (And maybe even this is true). The doctor stop looking fore a cure is true (because he died), Raiders attacked the hospital (Joel) and the fireflies couldn't make it work due to death.

[@KlassyKat45]

Great reaction video, girls. I'm betting that Marlene didn't tell Ellie at all what the plan and the risks were, thus Ellie had no say in it. They probably just sedated her enough to keep her calm and then put her on the table. She probably wouldn't have made it and Joel knew that. Also, it would take years to test their theory and it may not have worked. I don't see how 1 person can save the world. I'm glad, Joel got her out of there. Unfortunately, he had to kill anyone in his path (save for the 2 nurses) to do it. Hate that he lied to her. I didn't play the game either and have no desire to -- I suck at video games. I did watch some clips on youtube but prefer to watch live actors play the roles as opposed to CG characters. Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson are fine but I don't feel the connection with them as I do with Pedro and Bella. Some prefer the game to the show and that's cool. One person on another channel said the show was too much like a soap opera. (He's clearly never seen one) Not even close. I agree that complaining that Bella doesn't look like the CG version is ridiculous. You're right, it has no effect on how she plays the character. Apparently, she doesn't let negative comments bother her so... Hard to say when they will get to the 2nd season. Pedro has to work on The Mandalorian as well. Busy man.

[@strawberryshortcake3043]

Can you guys see each other while you are reacting to shows/movies, or can you only hear one another ? Heheh

[@pazz]

The game doesn't give you a choice. It's more like... Joel is going to murder every single person in this hospital, and you (the player) have to do it. And then afterwards, the debate is whether what he did was justified or not.

[@pazz]

It was (in my opinion) kind of revolutionary. Most games try to make you feel like the character you're playing as. This was one of the first games I played that was kind of like... "you are not Joel, Joel is not you, he's his own person that's gonna do some stuff that may be disagreeable to you, and you have to reckon with how that makes you feel." The game makes efforts to make you understand his POV obviously, but it's pretty consciously seperating the player and the character.

[@ItsMeGreg101]

Late to the party here, BUT… the main thing in the game, and in many games, is you kill people. As Joel you go and kill inflected at first and then start killing people because, like many things, people start being the “enemy”. Joel has one idea in mind, one motive and that is to protect something he lost last time. In the game when you are finding Elie to rescue her there are people in the way, you kill them in game fashion. The game doesn’t necessarily gloss over the mass killings Joel has done because there are people who are aware of a berserk man going around killing “innocent” people. BUT… What the show does very well is it shows the heaviness of that killing. It doesn’t glorify it, and it kinda makes Joel the villain. He has one thing on his mind at that point. And in the show that comes across as ruthless. But, how far would you go to save someone you love? For Joel, there is nowhere he wouldn’t go. The game is a different experience (for obvious reasons, it’s a game) but the story beats are there and the drama of “how far would you go” is there. I think I lost my train of thought somewhere… the bottom line is. We are all complicated. We all would go to the ends of the earth for those we care deeply about. Does that make us bad? …

[@MrPicklerwoof]

I actually think the show version justifies Joel's actions a lot more than in the game. In the show we know Ellie only believes they need to draw her blood and we know Ellie is explicit about wanting a future with Joel afterwards. They also make a point of showing Joel talking to Ellie about his suicide attempt, because he can see Ellie heading down a dark path after her experience with David and wants to reassure her. So those are Joel's references in the show and it changes everything. He has to save her, because he knows she wants a future afterwards and neither of them ever thought she would need to die for the cure. Which is very different to the game. And he has to lie to her afterwards, because he knows she's a potential suicide risk and telling her the truth could tip her over the edge. I think if you treat the show and the game as two entirely different entities and forget the other exists, show-Joel comes across a lot better in his decision making based on the information the show writers presented the viewers with.

[@Baker_Lyn]

While not intended as part of the save/sacrifice Ellie dilemma, you also have to wonder if the “cure” would really work, if the Fireflies would give the cure to everyone for free, or how many people would trust it enough to take it.

[@jhornacek]

The show runners have said that the second game will take up season 2 and 3 of the show.

[@TheMarine316]

No the villains were the shady group that wanted to kill a child

[@BaronVonChickenpants]

There’s no “right” answer…..it’s all about perspective. That’s what makes the game and the show so great. That being said, even if the Fireflies did successfully make a vaccine, it’s too late to save the world because there’s no global infrastructure anymore. The only people that would get the vaccine would be other Fireflies or they’d use it to get people to join them. They would never give it to FEDRA members or any citizens in the QZ who supported them. The vaccine would just be another tool to help them win their war.

[@jhornacek]

Once the Fireflies make a vaccine they would vaccinate all of their members, then let word get out - "We have a vaccine - you want it, join the Fireflies." You'd see a lot of people leaving the military, quarantine zones, Hunter groups, etc to join the Fireflies and get vaccinated. The Fireflies would soon become the biggest power in the country.

[@hermionesings]

21:50

[@toms169]

From a story perspective I love this "save the world or save the girl" moral dilemma that Marlene and Joel have to face. I only wish they had found a more scientifically sound rationale for having to kill her to develop a cure. I mean, why not just do a biopsy of her brain? Brain cells can be multiplied in a lab outside the body, so a tiny sample of her brain would have been enough to do all the tests they want. Or was 2003-level medical technology not yet able to do that?

[@petersonchan9250]

I've never played the games, waay too spoiled over the years, but I'm guessing the details are vague enough to have generated THIS amount of discussion from back then right until now Lol. Right in the opening credits (here, and ALL adaptations be it book or game) it states, "BASED ON.....", not carbon copy of. Jussayin' Lol. If everyone asked Ellie, and she chose to sacrifice herself, can we morally accept her decision based on a) knowing she is still considered a minor b) her decision is based on having suffered a major traumatic experience. Can we say that Ellie is in the "right" state of mind to make such a decision? On the other hand, we don't know the extent of the conversation that Marlene and Ellie had back in that Boston hq. Did Marlene explain the possibility that Ellie may not live through it? If so, was Ellie prepared? Perhaps it was not only ep.8's events that were weighing heavy on Ellie's mind. "I'll follow you wherever you go..." (in spirit perhaps?)....🤔

[@brandonflorida1092]

"Technically Joel is in the wrong, like he shouldn't have killed all those people...." I don't agree at all. Joel is in the right. No one gets to volunteer someone else for death, and child murderers don't deserve much consideration. People who would murder a child deserve to die and, further, had Joel left a core of them alive, they would have probably tried to kill Ellie again in the future. Frankly, people who would murder an innocent adult don't deserve much consideration. Joel has exactly two priorities - to keep Ellie alive and to make her happy.

[@frances3064]

The trolly problem become much easier when it’s your child vs 5 strangers. This season of the show is game 1 and I’m not sure they can do game 2 and have the show be successful. It’s got a huge issue to the current formula

[@mikaelaeriksson8189]

There isnt a right or wrong choice in the end. Both Joel and Marlene came from different perspectives in the end that was equally valid. How do Joel choose to save the world maybe if they can make a cure when Ellie is his whole world? Joel wasnt ready to lose another daughter, if he could save her he would. Marlene wanted to save humanity and didnt have any emotional connection to Ellie, she left her at a orphanage and never looked back until Ellie is 14 and ready to sacrifice her for the planet. Ellie on the other hand has always wanted to matter and Ellie should have had the right to be in control over her life no matter what. Thats the only thing that kept her going, that she wouldt end up alone being immune and everyone else would die around her. Ellie is the only one who could have made the right choice for her. It makes me think about what Tommys wife said to Ellie "The only one who can betray us is the one we trust" and Ashley Johson who plays Ellie in the game said that Ellies okay in the end means that she felt in that moment betrayaled by Joel and know that he lied, and basically i love you but it ends here. Season 2 is gonna be very rough to watch. Btw great reaction as usual love ur reaction videos ❤❤❤

[@houseofaction]

he actually made the correct choice because a cure wouldn't be possible Vaccinologist Christine Rollier also said in a 2016 video about the video game for Wellcome Trust that if the infection were real, it would take 20 years of research to find a cure. she also later said that there's "not a chance" that tissue from Ellie could be used to make a vaccine."that's not how a vaccine or the immune system works," and said that its not like Ellie's immune system fought the infection off, its that she's "not susceptible" to the fungas, which is not the same as being protected. in other words Ellie is not actually immune to the infection, its just that the cordycepts do not the same way within her, and there is no possible way you could give that unsceptability to others

[@anthonydefazio1518]

I can’t wait for season 2 of the last of us

[@FrogwomanOrgReloaded]

I hate that I had to play him like that in the ending of the game. The love for Ellie turned him into a crazy psycho who just murders so many good people in the hospital. The choice to save her instead of having a potential vaccine for world.... is SO WRONG. However I do love both games and the TV show.

[@Wanderersea]

Marlene is pure evil. Joel did the right thing. Marlene was selfish. She could at least bring Joel to see her and then tell Ellie that she may not live through the surgery. Or, Marlene already knew that Ellie would not survive the surgery. And that was why she sent Joel packing.

[@TukaihaHithlec]

The leader of a group trying to save humanity being called “pure evil” is just… something else. You’re allowed to prefer what Joel did without delusional excuses.

[@marykatemccann9006]

Just to add to this (spoilers for part II in case you haven't played it) because the main point of the Last of Us franchise is to make it clear that none of the main characters are EVER pure evil ... except Daniel ... seriously, eff that guy ... but that they're meant to be grey: In the second game we get more context for what Marlene was feeling and going through when the doctor told her he would have to do this 100% fatal surgery on Ellie. When she first learned about it her reaction was much similar to that of Joel's. She didn't want it to happen. And she was still pissed and upset about it as she was telling Joel what was going on when he woke up. You get to see her spitting verbatim what the doctor told her to Joel. That's why she keeps it so short and to the point, and why she sounds very curt like she's reciting a drilling manual. Also, in other recordings that she is leaving around the hospital, she has one sided conversations with Ellie's (dead) mom, asking her what she should do in this situation, because how could she not protect her best friend's child? The main reason she doesn't do anything though is because while she may have been the leader of the fireflies group in Boston, she's not the leader of the entire organization, and the fireflies in Salt Lake City wouldn't let her do anything. THEY were the ones that wouldn't give Ellie a choice, and Marlene chose to believe that what they were doing was "the right thing for humanity" instead of choosing the hard path and fighting everyone there. She was outnumbered. I'm pretty sure her words in her journal log/voice recorder were something like "they would kill me before I could do anything". So, rather than fight it, she just asked if Ellie's mom could ever forgive her for what she was doing for the sake of the world. And another quick thought. As far as Marlene knew, Joel's relationship with Ellie was still that of a smuggler. He had a job to finish and she was cargo. Also Joel said that the reason they made it there was because Ellie wanted to be there, and Marlene could have latched on to that phrase and use it as a justification for her sacrifice. "It's what she would want." She doesn't know about Joel losing his daughter and didn't get to see the same journey across the country that we did. Much like Hayley and Stella said, if we hadn't watched the previous episodes leading up to this, we wouldn't have necessarily felt the same about Joel's decisions or tried to justify them. Because we wouldn't have had the same context and/or understanding of their relationship and what it means.

[@jhornacek]

Marlene and the Fireflies spent the last ~20 years trying to find a cure to save humanity. So LOL at you saying she is "pure evil" and "selfish" Even if Marlene had told Ellie the truth and let Joel talk to her, no one was going to convince Joel to let this happen. Even Ellie.

[@Dnll88]

The Last of us PART 2 is AMAZING!

[@mr.k1611]

YOU don't get a choice to save the world or Ellie. It is Joel's choice. Hence, the immersion of the game

[@martinbraun1211]

🖖

[@SidPhoenix2211]

The biggest mistake people make while discussing this finale is turning this incredibly morally complex situation into a simple one. This is essentially the trolley problem. And the Trolley Problem is called that because it IS a problem. There are no right or easy answers. I can 110% understand where everyone in this situation is coming from. I can understand why Joel & Marlene made the decisions they made, even if they are all morally dubious. There can be an argument that states why Joel was 100% correct in doing what he did (trying to save Ellie), and an argument to be made as to why Marlene was 100% right in doing what she did (trying to protect the world). One can absolutely have a preference for whichever side they fall on... but to pretend like both sides aren't at the very least understandable wrt what they're doing... You're deluding yourself. Just sucks that no one took Ellie's wishes into consideration. It sucks that she wasn't asked or informed, and it sucks that she was lied to. The lie is the more interesting thing, anyway. I do not like it when people boil this thing down to black & white morality and heroes & villains. I personally side with Joel, but i have no delusions regarding the awfulness of his actions. And I fully get Marlene's side, and I also recognize the dubiousness of her decisions. The creators aren't trying to particularly villainize anyone either, contrary to the belief that some folks who irrationaly HATE part 2 have. They're just presenting the situation and the decisions as is. It's just that the situation isn't clear cut or have any simple answers, and some people HATE that. They can't handle the uncomfortableness of ambiguity. So they begin reading into right & wrong and heroes & villains and made this side into heroes & villanized the other side etc etc.

[@swish007]

the game is wild because toward the end joel starts making these decisions in cutscenes and then it dumps you in to play as him. so it's like "i guess i'm murdering all these fireflies now" the people we've been trying to get to for the whole game. and yeah ultimately it forces you to the same ending as the show.. but the part when the doctor says "i won't let you take her," the game lets you choose basically how you want to kill him. if you try not to kill him and grab ellie, joel will automatically kill the doctor. my first playthrough i was like man, i really don't want to kill the doctor.. so i used my weakest pistol and shot him right in the top of the foot.. not even the leg.. and the game made him die anyway. then the other nurses were like "you're a monster!" and i was like that shouldn't have killed him dammit! lol

[@anime_girly7340]

Team Joel

[@marykatemccann9006]

(spoilers for part II in case you haven't played it) Wanted to give some context from Marlene's perspective (from what I can remember) Also, this is not to say that she made the correct choice in this scenario. There really is no correct choice here, only what is correct for each character. In the second game we get more context for what Marlene was feeling and going through when the doctor told her he would have to do this 100% fatal surgery on Ellie. When she first learned about it her reaction was much similar to that of Joel's. She didn't want it to happen. And she was still pissed and upset about it as she was telling Joel what was going on when he woke up. You get to see her spitting verbatim what the doctor told her to Joel. That's why she keeps it so short and to the point, and why she sounds very curt like she's reciting a drilling manual. Also, in other recordings that she is leaving around the hospital, she has one sided conversations with Ellie's (dead) mom, asking her what she should do in this situation, because how could she not protect her best friend's child? The main reason she doesn't do anything though is because while she may have been the leader of the fireflies group in Boston, she's not the leader of the entire organization, and the fireflies in Salt Lake City wouldn't let her do anything. THEY were the ones that wouldn't give Ellie a choice, and Marlene chose to believe that what they were doing was "the right thing for humanity" instead of choosing the hard path and fighting everyone there. She was outnumbered. I'm pretty sure her words in her journal log/voice recorder were something like "they would kill me before I could do anything". So, rather than fight it, she just asked if Ellie's mom could ever forgive her for what she was doing for the sake of the world. And another quick thought. As far as Marlene knew, Joel's relationship with Ellie was still that of a smuggler. He had a job to finish and she was cargo. Also Joel said that the reason they made it there was because Ellie wanted to be there, and Marlene could have latched on to that phrase and use it as a justification for her sacrifice. "It's what she would want." She doesn't know about Joel losing his daughter and didn't get to see the same journey across the country that we did. Much like Hayley and Stella said, if we hadn't watched the previous episodes leading up to this, we wouldn't have necessarily felt the same about Joel's decisions or tried to justify them. Because we wouldn't have had the same context and/or understanding of their relationship and what it means.

[@ShesBats]

I wasn't complaining appearance wise, I was unhappy with the creators telling them not to play the game or watch playthrough content. Because sometimes when they play the characters as they like it is so stupid it's painful. I think the writers made Ellie swear a bit too much, but other than that it was fantastic. The emotions were there and my fears were put in a grave. I'm a Resident Evil and Silent Hill fanatic... What they did and continue to do to those franchises just knots my stomach when people are on to the next must live-action. But despite the lack of action this to me was very good 👍 👏

[@daykon6843]

Honestly Joel is in the right and was always in the right apart from him lying to Ellie which was his only mistake, but everything else was absolutely in the right. If they do make part 2 they need to rewrite the majority of the plot because part 2 is just a terribly written story.

[@penoyer79]

dad mode activated

[@shep4life]

Let the debates begin😂

[@ImTheBaconator1]

The game isn’t choice based but even if they had given a choice to not save Ellie I would do it all over again.

[@jhornacek]

Forget about physical differences between the game characters and the actors playing Joel and Ellie. My biggest complaint is that Ellie not being able to swim never mattered in the show! They included her telling Joel and Tess that she couldn't swim, and then it was never mentioned or came up again for the rest of the show. In the game you constantly have to get Ellie across water. They couldn't have had 1 scene where Joel had to put Ellie on a wooden pallet to get her across a lake? Come on! 😄

[@nataliazart]

Joel isn't the villain.

[@jhornacek]

Joel kills the only people trying to find a cure for this disease. You can agree with his decision to save Ellie, but he literally dooms humanity here. He definitely becomes the villain.

[@nataliazart]

@@jhornacek they we'ren't good people, they were terrorist. And a cure isn''t possible and even then the vaccine would change nothing.

[@neutralchaoticedits9694]

Both Marlene and Joel took away Ellie's choice in the end. I remember when the game first came out and there was debate over wanting to let Ellie die to be the cure versus saving Ellie and leaving the world to eventually end. Eille's choice would have been to sacrifice herself to be the cure (be it a potential cure or a for sure cure) and in the game it's definitely clear that Ellie going to the Fireflies wants to be the cure by any means necessary. Marlene, I really liked her and understood where she was coming from, same with Joel, but 20 years into an apocalypse even the good ones would risk it all for a potential end to being infected. In TLOU there are three ways to die: 1) Being infected 2) Being ripped apart by infected 3) Being killed by another person (raiders, cannibals, FEDRA, etc. vis a bat, bullet, or knife) Ellie's immunity marks off one potential way to die in that world, which was Marlene's and even Tess's point.

[@abhijeetashtikar]

Joel didn't take anything away from Ellie. This is logically & factually wrong. Joel gets to give Ellie a choice only in one scenario - If Marlene told Ellie about the killing surgery, Ellie said yes to die willingly & is allowed to meet Joel. Then & only then he can allow or deny Ellie's wish. Marlene didn't allow any of that. So as a parent Joel is left with only one thing to do & he did that thing. If Ellie says Yes & even then Joel kills everyone then & only then he is to be blamed. Joel's actions are direct result of Marlene's decision to hurry up things & not give Ellie a choice. If showrunners try to advance any logic just to blame Joel in Season2, then they will have angry reactions from parents. Protecting the children from the 'predator' is a primal animal instinct.

[@neutralchaoticedits9694]

@@abhijeetashtikar agree to disagree

[@SeeMore-ki7mq]

2nd game?....Hate it

[@kaze7781]

In the game from what I remember there is no trace of Marlene knew Ellies mother. And I really hope they don't make season two. Believe me...the second game was one of the worst games (just story wise) in the history of gaming

[@jhornacek]

In the game Marlene and Anna (Ellie's mother) were best friends. Marlene put Ellie in the FEDRA school because she wanted to keep her safe.

[@Phelddagrif1998]

@@jhornacek In the game it is not told to us specifically that they were best friends from a young age. All they give us it that Marlene promised Ellie's mother that she would look after Ellie. So they knew each other pretty well. What the extent of their friendship was we don't get that from the game. Only Neil Druckmann knows that and he expanded that in the show. In the game Marlene never reveals anything about her putting Ellie in FEDRA school. To my knowledge Marlene's involvement in Ellie in FEDRA school is new info. But I could be wrong on that. I played the Left Behind DLC many years ago. So that info is clouded

[@jhornacek]

@@Phelddagrif1998 In the game we are told that Ellie and Marlene were already best friends when Ellie was born - you find a letter in Ellie's backpack that Anna wrote to Ellie when she was born. Anna writes it knowing she is going to die (she doesn't say why she's dying) and says that Marlene will take care of her. We are also told that Ellie ended up in Fedra school ("an orphanage" Ellie calls it) and Marlene put her there.

[@PaulJohnson-zv3hl]

The first game was divisive but most were happy with the outcome. The second one really used the lack of autonomy to create empathy and it was very hard for most even those that did love the story.

[@whitneyfeldmeier745]

Joel was in the military first them Timmy followed looking to be a heroe or find purpose. Joel talked about it in the early episodes...maybe episode 4 or 5?

[@TukaihaHithlec]

Joel was never in the military.

[@ivankawnartist]

Choice aside, Joel would likely act upon selfish intention no matter what. His choice was wrong.

[@mandelorian3689]

Honestly the show was good and it was emotional. And I loved every second of it. Although its shows that everyone isn't perfect and it show the character growth among others. Which is why the last of us is very different from other games. I hate to say this but I love Joel when he got ruthless in the end. It just shows he has something to fight for. One goal. Like every last of us fan say, "Even tho joel wasn't a good man. But he was a good father." Pedro pascal and Bella Ramsey and everyone killed their roles into to this show!❤🥰

[@analmf1210]

Operate on someone without talking to that person about risks first, I don’t know how ethical would be.. In the game is different I don’t buy Joel I don’t buy th doctor who has more of a private dialogue. I despise him they asking at least twice would you do that if she was your daughter, he never answered. And for me, Joel and Ellie are not as close , yes and no, but not like here. That’s what I think.