Reactionary vs. Conservative | with Dave Greene & Joel Berry

Dave Greene (‪@TheDistributist‬) and Joel Berry (‪@TheBabylonBee‬) bring their twitter feud to Calmversations in this scintillating and kindhearted debate between two Christian gadflies.
x.com/JoelWBerry
x.com/GreeneMan6

[@SirSomnolent]

We will be 20% of the population and conservatives will still be muttering about fenceposts

[@ivangrozny496]

There are still white liberals in South Africa (probably some conservatives too), some people will never recognize reality

[@Home4Facts]

Who is “we”?

[@JunkSock]

@@Home4Factswhite skinned humanoids.

[@dankdark974]

Not you, apparently​@@Home4Facts

[@donjuanmckenzie4897]

WHITE PEOPLE ​@@Home4Facts

[@litrogue6328]

"Ruth joined Judaea nearly 5,000 years ago so now you have to accept infinite Somalis."

[@areyoutheregoditsmedave]

the absolute bottom of the pile of human genetics

[@gulanhem9495]

lol that's so funny. Plus highlights how stupid the reasoning of many Christians is, or perhaps demonstrates the danger of Christian universalism (I can't decide). Some of you commentators here are so witty.

[@areyoutheregoditsmedave]

@ "i'm not a Christian but i'm going to use some nominally Christian stance to score a point against you even though i have nothing but contempt for Christianity" you people hate us and we're starting to notice and take it seriously.

[@gulanhem9495]

@ No. I'm an ex Christian but I couldn't stand it anymore because most Christians are so weak and cringe. Both Evangelicals and Catholics embrace civic nationalism and the browning of America.

[@skylinefever]

@@litrogue6328 Honestly, I don't exactly like Christianity, but I hate it less than PC, SJW, and woke.

[@vorynrosethorn903]

Well, I think Dave pretty firmly established why reactionaries are the future and not conservatives with this.

[@vaportrails7943]

Not remotely. He’s regurgitating failed, defeated and destroyed early 20th century intellectual mistakes.

[@Vingul]

@@vaportrails7943 lol

[@Vingul]

@vaportrails7943 Meanwhile the ideas that won out are currently failing, defeating and destroying Western civilisation.

[@krysofylaxxalyfosyrk9148]

​@@vaportrails7943 Meanwhile the ideas that won out are currently failing, defeating and destroying Western civilisation. Congratulations.

[@yoba6037]

@@vaportrails7943 ok Boomer/

[@ChipperClipper1]

Joel heard the windows reboot sound in his head when Dave asked him if the founding fathers were racist.

[@JackSchitt-p9t]

That was embarrassing.

[@chrisc7265]

meanwhile Dave heard the PS2 boot up sound

[@Swagnesium1]

"When your society is nothing but 130 IQ Anglos you can have literally any form of government you want" - Ben Franklyn said to himself out loud in front of everyone.

[@maintaint3003]

It's pretty much "everything was racist" (racism doesn't matter), against "everything was racist" (Oh no everything is destroyed). Yeah, the tool of your opponent is your obstacle, and vice versa.

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@ChipperClipper1 the founding fathers were liberal racists aka progressives

[@chrisnorden7464]

Every position Joel articulates is followed by "The left has taken that and run with it." So basically you're confirming the old saying that conservatives are liberals going the speed limit?

[@brianmeen2158]

Well is that statement pretty accurate? I Mean, what have the conservatives actually conserved?

[@areyoutheregoditsmedave]

@@brianmeen2158doing a good job of conserving homosexuality

[@dvg4104]

@@areyoutheregoditsmedave -- And MLK mythology!

[@codex3048]

45:08 "Lyndon Johnson and the Great Society completely destroyed (black) culture." -- Joel Berry. What a strange paradox. According to this line of thought, black Americans' culture was great under segregation and "Jim Crow" laws. It was then "destroyed" not by their own behavior, but by the Democratic Party instituting laws that virtually every black political and religious leader advocated, and still advocate daily in Congress and everywhere else.

[@JackSchitt-p9t]

I agree with Joel that Blacks need to be ruled as second-class citizens.

[@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756]

I don't think its wrong really. What was going on was a parrelel society based in western culture, but with its own flavor. Many of the changes increased pressure for broken homes and state dependency. Not a shocker leaders would advocate for it though. There is money in it and goes right along with how elites have been trying to push qll non elites towards....dependency and global competition

[@jercreason840]

If they were doing ascendant welfare wouldnt have destroyed them.

[@jercreason840]

Hahaha our families are the super strongest but least able to resist welfare. Doesnt make any ing sense

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@codex3048 same way white identitarians cry about small hats ruining white culture with porn, lgbt, usury when these are all things whites advocate for and even push on other nations.

[@yoba6037]

"Dave you've been misinformed about the founding of our nation" LMAO these people are about to eat so much shit, they have no idea

[@mattyice852]

Baby's first Thomas Sowell video

[@wavell14]

@@yoba6037 the only difference between Christianity and communism was an astounding statement

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

The founders were actually way more identitarian on race than in Europe

[@JasonSmith-eo2hu]

@@TheThreatenedSwan Yeah. That was the strangest part to me. Like, an average European in the 18th century would see race as an oddity or novelty. They weren’t really among other diverse races so their consciousness about it was fairly tame. Maybe a Turk, Moor, or Tartar would have been something they would know of in the far edges of Europe. But Americans were surrounded by race. Not just from diverse European groups, but Africans and Native Americans in their every day lives through out the colonies. They were much more conscious of it and had developed much more thought about it. And the thought they developed was very…racist

[@DoubleBob]

Dave talks about how to stop the decline of his people and how to improve their lot. Joel obsesses about being called racist and how to improve another group's position at the cost of his group's wealth - as if we were in a good spot. If you want your kids' wealth to be spend on other men's kids, go for Joel. If you want your kids to prosper, go for Dave.

[@JunkSock]

And yet the irony of Joel fielding an army of white children from his breeches while Dave has one child. I agree strongly with Dave throughout this calmversation btw

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

​@@JunkSock That's just bad for us. If Berry gets everything he wants, none of his grandchildren will be European

[@Pow_FIsh]

Joel hates white people and should be treated like the racist he is.

[@kingnull2697]

@@JunkSock Women are socially attuned creatures. Highly heterodox thought like this was social anathema for years.

[@QuaZamp]

By their fruit 😂

[@vorynrosethorn903]

The enlightenment got us here, it's not going to get us out.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

You missed out the "..." around "The Englightenment"; the fart huffing IDW of their day.

[@skylinefever]

The enlighten may have gotten us here, but I don't know that the genie can be put back in the bottle.

[@klolwut]

Every hypothetical supposition of the Conservative side is immediately proven wrong by reality

[@vaportrails7943]

Every hypothetical supposition of white supremacists was proved wrong by WWII.

[@dvg4104]

This guy Joel bears no resemblance to Pat Buchanan, Russell Kirk, Joseph Sobran, Charley Reese, Paul Gottfried, i.e. authentic conservatives.

[@mranonymous6006]

Im only 20 minutes in and this discussion has scratched more itches than I thought I had. They are truly going to every corner in the room that is the current anti-progressive body of thought. I really love this episode, grateful for this get together

[@mranonymous6006]

55:06 that second felt like a minute. Again, cant stress how great this conversation is.

[@gulanhem9495]

Absolutely phenomenal epiosode, partly because in discussion form you get these two sides to contrast with each other better, than if you listen to both sides separately. Plus Dave (and Auron MacIntyre and others) becomes better at articulating the Dissident right position for each year that passes by.

[@brianmeen2158]

@@gulanhem9495who is the best thinker of the dissident right? Is Jared Taylor considered to be part of the dissident right?

[@gulanhem9495]

@ Dave is the godfather and best thinker, while Auron MacIntyre the best communicator. Do you agree? To our knoledge J Taylor is not DR since he really doesn't focus much on particular politics, only on white advocacy.

[@rodionraskolnikov3853]

The problem is Joel holds the enlightenment and constitution as equivalent to the word of God.

[@goyonman9655]

And that is sad

[@Btn1136]

Protestantism… many such cases.

[@goyonman9655]

@Btn1136 That lliterally the opposite of "The BIBLE alone is infalliable" Dont embarass yourself in public

[@BenjaminABoyce]

I think Btn has a point

[@goyonman9655]

@@BenjaminABoyce How does he have a point whhen a core feeature of protestantism us that only the Bible isinflliable

[@DeadmanRed]

The “random Nigerian” question posed by Dave to Joel is the highlight of this debate. Joel had absolutely no answer to this. The fact that the disparities between blacks and whites persist even outside the US blows Joel’s entire premise out of the water and he has no answer for these real issues.

[@WhiteWolf126]

Exactly. He has no answer because he's a liberal who believes in the blank state of man. This is obviously a false preconception about humanity and the core liberal principle that has led us to our own destruction. No matter the policies disparities will remain because we are simply not the same.

[@brianmeen2158]

But are those disparities as large as they are in America? I recently read that in certain parts of Europe there aren’t much in the way of disparities between blacks and whites

[@WhiteWolf126]

@@brianmeen2158 lol...?

[@gulanhem9495]

@@brianmeen2158 lol u must be kidding. The performance gap between Black folx and the rest is just as large in every European country as it is in the States.

[@flak1939]

Joel is just happy living in 2008 and his arguments are just embarrassingly naive for 2025.

[@gulanhem9495]

Yes, I bet he shed tears when Barack was sworn into office.

[@Pow_FIsh]

its not naivety it's subversion

[@chaosmos24]

Joel beleives the achievement gap will disappear in one or two generations if we take away the assistance we currently give the black community. That is...quite a take.

[@dvg4104]

Which is completely delusional. The psychological effect of propping-up Blex artificially and giving out titles is that some people came to believe that "equality" is possible. "After all, look at all these 'scholars,' police chiefs, mayors, professors, astronauts, etc..."

[@PinkyIvan12]

Barry has an interesting double standard. USA is not racist because it was the least racist country at the time, but it's also the most religious, despite being decidedly the most secular country at the time.

[@darthkillhoon]

This is why Conservatives are dying out because just like any heresy it is incoherent.

[@Prayingfrog]

Yes and racism is bad, but also American Blacks were also much better off when everyone was openly very racist toward them.

[@emojicaptain7285]

How is that a double standard the us may have been founded as a secular state but yet is the most religious western nation today

[@brianmeen2158]

@@Prayingfrog that is strange though, isn’t it? Blacks did seem much better off in many ways when the country was much more openly racist towards them .. I’ll always say that victimhood is completely paralyzing and liberals injected tons of victimhood juice into black communities since the 70s - now it’s pretty much baked into their DNA . Not good

[@skylinefever]

@@darthkillhoon It makes me think of conservative takes that happenned 10 to 20 years ago. Red China is communist! Red China is the most capitalist! Make a decision!

[@Jilktube]

The idea that masses of people will suddenly become Christian if they think hard enough is both naïve, ahistorical, and insulting to the ancient martyrs who died for the faith.

[@joshuamichael2463]

Dave simply lays out the truth, Joel doesn’t disagree much, then runs right to twitter and doubles down lol

[@jimoconnor4766]

Joel very much reflects myself of a decade ago. I understand how I now look to the me of then, so I understand his dismay.

[@pjotrnumenev3809]

Same. Many such cases.

[@chrisc7265]

"If you get rid of affirmative action the achievement gap disappears in one to two generations" This was *exactly* the rhetoric used to push affirmative action in the first place! Is it or isn't it!

[@brianmeen2158]

How would getting rid of affirmative action erase the achievement gap ..? I don’t understand the logic there.

[@ThomistReview1950]

Dave killed it. Joel made some interesting points but on the whole Dave seemed more in tune with the reality on the ground while Joel sounds like a Protestant pastor who when pressed on anything enters into a mini sermon of basic Protestant sayings that fail to reach the fullness of truth necessary to chart out real solutions

[@goyonman9655]

Protestantism seems to live rent free in your head That you see it everywhere

[@mranonymous6006]

My take is that Joel isn't comforable admitting that in order for charity to be applied to people that ARENT of our nation/religion, we must have in group preference, as we need to get our house (nation) in order (controlled, lawful, safe, etc) before we can introduce new elements (implying that they don't inherently improve us but instead are a burden, even if over time they assimilate.) A master class in discussion, but Dave certainly takes the crown.

[@goyonman9655]

Rent free much You seem to see protestantism everywhere

[@goyonman9655]

​@@mranonymous6006 Yup You cant be charitable as a group if you are not a group

[@mranonymous6006]

@@goyonman9655 and especially if your house is literally being invaded by squatters and youre not permitted to remove them.

[@Truttle]

Joel appears to have a fundamentally progressive outlook with a shifting metric for what's "racist." He also assumes (and I wish Dave hadn't implicitly granted this) that the Constitution hasn't already been destroyed, but that's exactly the point of contention with the "post-Constitution" debate.

[@jesse123185]

Anyone not willing to admit that we're post-constitution isn't being honest about history or isn't reading an honest history.

[@PuntedKitten]

Have you heard of Curt Doolittle and the Natural Law Institute? They're trying to reform the Constitution.

[@nicodemussmith]

@@PuntedKitten Dave put that crap to bed years ago

[@ivangrozny496]

​@@nicodemussmithwhere did he do this? I've heard of curt doolittle, he has some interesting ideas

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@Truttle you guys have a fundamentally progressive outlook too. Christianity was a progressive force, so was the founding of America and it's constitution. White nationalism is liberal progressive

[@chaosmos24]

Thinking you can read Chesterton and dispense with the entire canon of Western philosophy is a wild thing to say.

[@rraguso]

he was joking, surely

[@gh274]

You think it's clear he was joking because it's absurd but he gave zero nonverbal indication he wasn't joking so he probably just believes something absurd.

[@klemperal]

​@@gh274If you are autistic, what you said makes sense.

[@RedLetterRedux]

@@rraguso He admitted later on Twitter that he’s intentionally not well-read.

[@xenophon5354]

@@RedLetterReduxHe didn’t need to confirm it.

[@Vingul]

1:05:43 REALLY, Berry? The English banned it several decades before you did, and most of us Europeans hadn't practiced it for many centuries. Come on, guy.

[@AbsoluteTruthers]

American states banned slavery decades before Britain, starting in 1777

[@MaximusOverhead]

Ya I’m super confused at that segment, his modern Christian lens is and was blocking a massive amount of concrete historical reality on what was going on in the past.

[@ke4755]

@@MaximusOverhead No, Joel was basically right. Early American were first to dismantle a huge slavery apparatus. This was a moral first, rightly, unwokedly appraised.

[@wavell14]

@@ke4755 he was completely wrong

[@wavell14]

@@MaximusOverhead his lens is jewish not Christian

[@Jilktube]

“The only difference between America and communism is God” is quite the take to have.

[@TheHangedMan]

I appreciate the need for open, honest debate. Makes it even more clear that Joel is totally clueless and has no real answers to any problems.

[@seaslob2820]

Dave with the far better argument. I was nodding to almost every one of his points. While disagreeing with almost everything Joel said.

[@tomhato5523]

Common Dave W Common conservative inc L

[@JM16714]

Rip anyone who debates Dave

[@holographicfrog1503]

funny thing is he doesn't do prep anymore

[@Sevaria]

@@holographicfrog1503 yeah that was a great stream, “I don’t even bother to prep for debates, I can just show up, ask 2-3 basic questions, and they collapse.”

[@bramdoe3303]

@@Sevaria it sounds basic, but it isn’t. It’s questioning what have become basic assumptions about a valid political perspective and interrogating how people justify it. If the assumptions are so basic, they should be easily justified. Instead, we see circular arguments and idealistic concepts that beg the question, “Why is this concept so important?”

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@JM16714 Dave can't debate.

[@raskolnikov6443]

@@ManuelGiorgislol

[@xenophon5354]

Loyalty to abstract political principles over the flesh and blood people for whom those principles were originally constituted is insanity. These ideas, and the constitution, are tools. When they don’t function for the job at hand, you get new tools.

[@kinghenry100]

Culture comes from race, it cannot be separated. Extended phenotype.

[@skylinefever]

I often make that point when people think they can make kids sing opera and get high culture out of them. I also make the point when people fall for the idea that people can be made to take up certain religions and get the upsides. As if there are never naturally existing impossible skeptics, marginal believers, and other such things. Some people argued such people did not exist pre enlightenment. I ask why St Thomas Aquinas needed to write the 5 ways of knowing the existence of God way back then.

[@LoneyOctopus]

Joel literally said the founding fathers were the most Progressive and Radical of their time in regards to race. If that is the case then the Progressives, Modern Liberals and Democrats are fulfilling the spirit of the constitution and founding fathers not the Conservatives.

[@jercreason840]

He was all for radical change, just not any Dave wants.

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@LoneyOctopus that's fallacious

[@raskolnikov6443]

@@ManuelGiorgison Joel’s part

[@cgetter2927]

Two things can be true, they were, but they were still racist. The last 200 years have been leftists pointing out the hypocrisy of liberals because of the clear contradictions in modern liberal society between supposed principles of equality and the lack of truly applying them. (All men are created equal, except for blacks, women etc..). This has created the situation where the founding ideas of the country have led us to where we are but no founding father would have supported the outcome. Marx was right that contradictions will naturally work themselves out, it just won't create the utopia many imagine.

[@AA-ki6zn]

Joel is correct in this claim. I don't like to say that, but it's true. Denying the egalitarian nature of the Founders is either misinformed or dishonest. I'm sorry.

[@CloverPickingHarp]

Joel is COMPLETELY gone

[@imissnickplur4964]

yeah, it was very frustrating to listen to him, he was wrong on nearly every point he tried to make. some of it was just flat out stupid.

[@D3r3k2323]

That was much better than the conversations with Wokal

[@januarysson5633]

I’d still like to see another debate between James Lindsay and Dave on their own. Wokal should come on alone. He is not a good debate bro. He’s a much better reply guy.

[@bulletbill5977]

A low bar, indeed.

[@Vingul]

@@januarysson5633 Wokal isn't a good anything.

[@chrisc7265]

@@januarysson5633 this would be amazing, I wonder if Benjamin can make it happen

[@minutemilitia6498]

Marriage is actually what has radicalized me more than anything else. I was already one of these radicals Dave is speaking about, but as I formed a family I realized the importance of everything I believed in a new way.

[@chrisc7265]

I used to be a "liberal but I only want to develop the ideas until year x then we arbitrarily stop" guy so I shouldn't talk but how can you be one of those guys in 2025 it's just so blatant now

[@vaportrails7943]

Because classical liberalism is not the problem. It’s atheism and globalism, which is modern imperialism.

[@Sevaria]

@@vaportrails7943 Incorrect Boomer, “Classical Liberalism” leads directly to globalism and secular rot; the only reason you dont see that is the 1000+ years of Christian Civilization as momentum prior to the mind virus of The Enlightenment being unleashed. Monarchy is objectively the best political system.

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@vaportrails7943 no liberalism is the problem

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@chrisc7265 that's literally you guys too. White nationalism is progressivism that stops in the 1900s

[@wavell14]

@@vaportrails7943 boomers like you are the problem

[@NovemXI]

Joel is a man with big convictions and little knowledge. His brand of evangelical conservatism has no answers, no solutions, just vague platitudes.

[@Paul-A01]

Joel is like a guy who knows how to do regular maintenance on his car, but when the engine block cracks he doesn't understand why you get upset with him when he tells you to change the oil regularly.

[@aaronfire359]

My short answer for the topic of the whole first hour, culture and genetics: cultures and peoples have an ethnogenesis. Cultures are created over time by specific people groups and civilizations or subset of a civilization, they are a particularist thing, and they have a definite genetic and ethnic origin to them because only those specific peoples maintain those certain cultural traditions and practices. Can other people adopt those practices? Yes, but that doesn’t change their origins, and like a tree that bears good fruits, if the root people of that culture is not maintained then no one will be around to remember it, be interested in it, or pass it on. Being born into something is not the same as adopting something, you choose adoption, you cannot choose your birthright.

[@SimpleFluorescence]

13:10 Joel: "America is the most Christian country in the world" 🇵🇱 : "Am I a joke to you?"

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@SimpleFluorescence Poland isn't that Christian. Barely anyone really practices. The most Christian nations are in the third world

[@wavell14]

​@@ManuelGiorgiswrong

[@bobbob5541]

Poland is more religious than the US and most of the west, but far from the most religious country in the world.

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@wavell14 you're wrong. Less than 5% of poles go to church regularly, abortions, homosexuality and all other forms of perversion are normalized, most of the youth is atheist. Even America is more Christian than Poland

[@Enricopalazzo69]

​@bobbob5541 some middle eastern country I'm sure holds that crown

[@bigbonker9864]

Good and crucial talk. Thank you for hosting it, Benjamin. I think Dave pretty clearly had the more comprehensive and realistic worldview. People like Joel will come around eventually.

[@Bolaniullen]

32:49 Critique of civ nationalism presented. Did you know that you are white Western man ? what's the first thing out of Joel mouth in response ? Exodus.. the jewish founding myth, love the stranger etc It's like a etched groove in your brain. Almost like someone put a spell on you or something

[@gulanhem9495]

Yes, but it's not got so much to do with that he loves Jews (which he does), but more that he's so high on Jesus. US evangelicals, who often belong to the most dedicated believers, sadly also suffer from this "Don't worry, God will fix everything in the end" mentality, which is such a losers mentality in our current time.

[@Pow_FIsh]

I bet if we dug around his ancestry we'd find more than one Herschel

[@skylinefever]

@@gulanhem9495 I was stuck with that crowd, and they were some of the biggest Israel shills. Foreign aid bad, unless Israel. Socialism bad, unless Israel. Do things because JEEEESUS. The kind of Christian joked about in Footloose or Detroit Rock city may be rare. However, they certainly do exist.

[@kiwikewl]

Oh man, Joel Berry seems to be incredibly unprepared.

[@Eric-le8on]

Joel is perfectly ok with people that hate him to rule over him.

[@gulanhem9495]

Yes, and he doesn't mind the browning of America.

[@karlhetzke691]

Seems like both Reactionaries and Conservatives (who are Christians) agree that a return to Christianity is necessary. Conservatives believe that means a return to 1776 because the American founding is among, if not the single most Christian experiments with creating a government. Reactionaries, on the other hand, see the founders as leftists who laid the groundwork for the inevitable dechristianisation of the country. My personal take: the Reactionaries are more correct than the conservatives in this regard. I think Liberals, Leftists, and Conservatives all get American history wrong in the same way...each group sees past Americans as fundamentally conservative symbols. Only Reactionaries (and a few unorthodox lefties like Thaddeus Russel) seem able to acknowledge the extreme progressivism in the founders (and puritans).

[@CasaBonita1018]

Pretty sure Britain ended slavery before the US. Joel is deluding himself on Boomer-ist American Exceptionalism

[@doodguytheblank2403]

I think if I saw this a few years ago when I was still a normiecon I probably would of completely radicalized. “Difference between us and communists is God” His entire worldview as a conservative isn’t about preserving any actual history, religious practices, or culture, but instead being pious progressive anti-racists with vague Christian platitudes.

[@Lascts25]

Are there examples of biblical assimilation of foreign men into Israel? Or is it just the women Ruth, etc.

[@AA-ki6zn]

heh

[@enlighteneddespot9359]

It's amazing how many incredibly intelligent people don't realize that metaphysical universalism doesn't mean there must be physical universalism. These are completely different. The fact you believe in one God. one truth, has nothing to do with the particularity of life in the fallen world. My goodness, God is One and Many. Get it. It's a hint

[@Ogata123]

Dave still going out of his way to talk with leftists

[@MrDhollaballa]

Joel is the classic conservative who is scared of winning. I think a fundamental view of conservatives is fear of responsibility which is why they want to maintain and go back to old ways. That way they can go say but it worked before if it goes wrong. Conservatives need to have to confidence and courage to actually change the world and then face the consequences.

[@lightdampsweetenough2065]

Well the mindset is probably been with us for a long long time. Most people are socially conservative, at least around their own family and friends. In most of human history, being careful with doing things in "a new way" would in many cases be deadly. The problem today is that change is much less dangerous on a individual level, but probably never been more dangerous on a societal level. The types of changes you are talking about, and which might be needed, will unleash suffering, death and destruction most people would do almost anything to avoid.

[@AA-ki6zn]

Funny, I didn't read it that way at all. Joel would obv deny this, but the truth is his premise has been the default of the establishment for decades if not longer. J worship under the guise of Christianity, etc. The whole bit. The problem is his ideology sucks and it didn't produce the outcomes that he hoped it would, and so he has to play make-believe by inventing a reality where True Conservatism hasn't been tried. It has, in earnest. And it brought us here. This will offend a lot of people, but leftism/progressivism did not bring us to where we are. Conservatism did.

[@mememagician97]

1:07:10 "The problem with communists is that they tried to do communism without God" as opposed to us or like, Jim Jones who will totally create society like communism because we read the bible every once in a while? This Joel Berry dude is nuts.

[@Tinkejohnson-f3f]

Good point

[@Juiceb0xable]

Bro conservatives have completely lost the debate. There are no answers from them anymore.

[@Tinkejohnson-f3f]

I don’t think they ever had it

[@tcb8248]

This is some of the best stuff I’ve seen from Dave! He’s on fire here.

[@paulwinters6024]

Joel Berry’s Evangelical/Baptist tendencies explains everything about his politics and it’s a huge reason why our politics are degrading.

[@TwoHighways]

Joel needs to read the Bell Curve

[@wavell14]

Joel needs to read

[@skylinefever]

I discuss making equality exist by encouraging the good end to have kids and encourage childfree among the shit end.

[@codex3048]

"Communism is fine as long as it acknowledges God."

[@vaportrails7943]

Communism is a mockery of Christianity that steals some of its clothes for completely opposite purposes.

[@kingnull2697]

Communism is a rejection of reality, & God, at the foundational level - it denies Original Sin. Joel's right . . . technically. If Communists really acknowledged God, they wouldn't be Communists for very long.

[@jimoconnor4766]

Joel is making an argument that at the MARGINS you can incorporate people that are different. But when you plunk down Christianity in central Africa you don’t get 19th century Englishmen. These my be brothers in Christ but they may also be really inappropriate neighbors.

[@skylinefever]

I argued that Christpill the 3rd world to get the first world is just another blank slate fallacy.

[@Chickidydow]

Every time Joel can't deal with a point, he deflects with a corny joke.

[@Tinkejohnson-f3f]

Hey at least he’ll have a future in Branson MO if he is corny. The classical liberal thing is played out

[@thistagworked]

How come we're supposed to tolerate and have patience with the third world? I'm tired of people talking about changes that happen over many generations and expect us to care. I don't care that generations later a group assimilates, what is that group doing now! I'm supposed to be fine with chaos in the present day because 200yrs from now it'll be different?

[@AA-ki6zn]

Political version "I'll get sober tomorrow." "...but sir you have stage 3 liver disease."

[@dvg4104]

Oh, you mean the "developing" world? 🙂

[@witherfinger]

Dave, you gotta have more kids man.

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

Each named after famous and important literary figures from Europe; Dante? Check. Next; an English author. Then a French one. After that, maybe a Spanish one.

[@JunkSock]

Would certainly increase the appeal to authority.

[@buddyillian3377]

Sounds like Joel completely agrees with what Dave says, but emotionally he doesn't want to say it. It's an emotional argument

[@gulanhem9495]

We've all made that journey, we on the Dissident right.

[@PatrickTrent]

He can't ever believe that he likes or accepts racists so he has to meaningless and oftentimes asinine qualifications so that he can't feel better about being a nationalist.

[@albus6130]

I have sympathy for him many of us have been there. I think he’s a good man clinging to a world that no longer exists.

[@brianmeen2158]

@@gulanhem9495give me some creators on KZbin that are on the dissident right? Btw where is Richard Spencer? I always liked the way he presented his viewpoints

[@skylinefever]

Debates may need a certain amount of facts and logic. However, zero emotional appeal isn't going to work. I suggested that Donald Trump had emotional appeal with his debates. He'd swear in front of everybody and they would cheer.

[@CosmicMystery7]

"We were the first country to end slavery." Is Joel historically illiterate or dishonest?

[@RickDelmonico]

England ended slavery in 1833.

[@AbsoluteTruthers]

American states started ending slavery in 1777.

[@nacetroy]

Maybe a third of the way in, Benjamin this is one of your better debates that includes Dave and a "classical liberal" - I have to give Benjamin respect for legitimately trying to have these discussions in good faith.

[@Q_Cooper]

This is the first one I've seen, are there any others in particular you'd recommend?

[@gulanhem9495]

@@Q_Cooper There haven't been many, perhaps a couple more on Ben's channel, with Dave, Vocal, Lindsay and possibly Auron MacIntyre.

[@James-WM]

It's obvious that Joel hasn't thought many of his positions through. He's stuck on theory, and changed his position on several topics from governance to education throughout the show.

[@reactionaryreadinglaw8021]

My ancestors ended Slavery in England in the 11th century.

[@readwriter]

This guy’s an intellectual Dinosaur - and by that I mean Joel Berry.

[@williamholden7644]

The founders question BROKE Joel lol

[@mam-o3x]

Joel stated he wants immigrants to be like Cubans, which is virtually impossible. 1) Cubans immigrants are *truly* refugees. Most that immigrated in the 60s were either middle & upper class and literally lost EVERYTHING. There was never any hope of going back, the life you knew was destroyed, a hard reset. No vacation, no visiting, no future hope. American proved to be that reset, and so Cubans very gladly became Americans and assimilated far more successfully than any other Latin group. It was as close to savior as a country can be. 2) prior to Castro, Cuba was virtually a vassal state of the US and was highly influence by American politics and culture. Cuba could have easily become a territory like PR after the Spanish-American War. Much more than that, but there’s no country or situation that really fits that bill anymore. The only place I could foresee this happening is South Africa if it really goes full throttle on their re appropriation.

[@skylinefever]

I argued that what happenned is that the USA got the elite of Cuba. Now immigration is mostly the shit end of the bell curve.

[@XN_Pulse]

Joel’s biggest problem with communists is that “they did it without God”….let that sink in

[@biruk316]

Joel fears the "far right" threat. The argument always goes "We shouldn't go too far even if we agree because bad things might happen" Why? is it because he's never had an honest conversation about race?

[@Lascts25]

Colorblind meritocracy ended when we became a multicultural nation. Every culture is going to vote in its own interest. It should be obvious by now. Without a European identity, you cannot form an interest group to defend basic rights

[@Rasenganplanet]

Joel Berry is basically a peasant who believes in his societies mythos. Even after the King has been deposed, he believes the King had magic.

[@xenophon5354]

Hey Joel, would you kindly apply the logic you’ve used on the school systems (scrapping them and building new ones) to other aspects of government?

[@gh274]

Whether you believe in them or not, eugenic principles exist, and would be ubiquitous in any meritocratic system. The applications of the theory people typically reject are known as "negative eugenics," which are effectively synonymous with totalitarianism. However, positive eugenics are in practice all over the world. We just don't call it what it is.

[@skylinefever]

I often make the point, too. Too bad normies can only see the forcible stuff of the 1930s and 1940s. I would love to hand out vasectomies to the Idiocracy.

[@dvg4104]

Our welfare system is definitely dysgenic.

[@southernbedouin3891]

There were many states that had official state churches and you had to be a Christian to take office in the early days of America. This should have been discussed. Dave with a big W though

[@Erika-ye5rv]

Incredible! Joel is so illumined and liberated from from the dark, dank wisdom of thousands of years of Orthodox tradition. He exudes self-assured pious ness as he writes himself into the pages of scripture and writes out the men who assembled those pages. He is his own Pope. He is his own council. He alone interprets, guided by what he will insist is the “holy spirit” who somehow gives each one like him a slightly different interpretation. A self-soothed man. Hail Joel’s self-guided tour of reality!

[@gulanhem9495]

Very funny. While evangelicals have done lots of silly stuff by going rogue, the Catholic church is corrupt too. It's completely disgusting with the Blessed Mother of God dogma, the infallible socialist pope, all the twisting of words and gaslighting about Church history.

[@vorynrosethorn903]

The Quaker joke was that if you listen to them conveying the word of God through themselves you find out that God reads an awful lot of the Manchester Guardian.

[@johnswain4992]

I enjoyed that. Have a like

[@Juiceb0xable]

There definitely have been less racist tribes in the past. But they would've all died out against racist tribes. Obviously racism won for thousands of years.

[@skylinefever]

How dare anyone suggest things exist out of human instinct?!

[@Juiceb0xable]

@@skylinefever human existence is competitive. If racist tribes beat egalitarian tribes, than it doesn't really matter how "enlightened" egalitarian tribes are, they will eventually be killed or enslaved by racist tribes.

[@skylinefever]

@ I make that kind of point by suggesting tribalism exists by human instinct, and modern society is about people trying to bullshit their instinct.

[@ericmcmanus5179]

Why is the Babylon Bee being controlled by DW?

[@jimoconnor4766]

All of Joel’s proposed solutions require unconstitutional actions.

[@Zidana123]

So we amend the Constitution.

[@Zathien]

It's a catch 22, you need to do the unconstitutional actions to get to the point that those kind of amendments would pass

[@bulletbill5977]

​@@Zidana123If the constitution can just have totally antithetical amendments grafted onto it to justify the political actions we were already going to take, then what defense could such a flimsy and easily altered set of principles possibly serve?

[@TheUltimegaMan]

@@bulletbill5977You’ve hit the nail on the head, in ways you may not have already guessed. The Constitution is not a magical piece of paper, and conservatives need to stop treating it as such. It’s important, but ultimately it’s a political treatise for a moral people to govern themselves, where the document itself has undermined that morality.

[@chadingle6322]

Obviously Berry is beholden to Israel, which is why he starts his arguments from the edges

[@stevendouglas3781]

What a bizarre fence post metaphor. Sounds lime horse shoe theory nonsense. The person who cares most, or “too much” about the fence post isn’t going to let it decay. The sole issue is that caring about the fence post was systematically made problematic. Socially, legally, and politically.

[@gulanhem9495]

Yeah. The metaphor in its origin probably is great, but Berry used it badly here. As if wildly removing fence posts without thinking why they were put there in the first place, is something people on the rightwing tend to do.

[@averyAnCap]

Thanks for putting this conversation together Benjamin

[@gh274]

For the record, culture is the aggregate character of a population's heritable personality traits.

[@chaosmos24]

1:07:00 Joel is conservative, but he believes in Woke Jesus.

[@bigbonker9864]

The dissident right is the only group that is willing to honestly deal with the black achievement gap. Woke thinks it's caused by institutional racism but can't point to anything that's actually racist in the structuring of institutions. Joel here thinks is affirmative action and welfare, but he completely ignores that this gap persists if you control for those variables. Dave is the only one addressing it head on.

[@Saddamuel]

Joel also thinks the black/white achievement gap is due to institutional racism. For the progressive, a lack of sufficient affirmative action and welfare is racist. For Joel, too much affirmative action and welfare is racist. Racism is the devil's end boss for both the progressive and conservative. As you explained, the real problem is race exists and we aren't allowed to acknowledge that.

[@skylinefever]

I may frequently not get along with dissident right. However, I love seeing them give answers to questions that people are not permitted to ask. I suggest that if people want dissident right gone, they can either come up with PC answers that actually work, or they can forget it.

[@dvg4104]

As a group, perhaps. However, race-realist individuals come from many various political persuasions.

[@T_Kelso]

Why should we care about the 'black achievement gap'?

[@bigbonker9864]

@ You don't need to care about it, but you do need to understand its effects on societal cohesion.

[@YOSUP315]

Self-awareness is important, but it's a poor excuse for bad thinking. It's like saying, "yeah I know if we leave all the jail doors unlocked, they'll escape and oppress the general populace, but we just need to hold them accountable on their honor, that they won't walk out of their cells anymore!"

[@OneMansOdyssey]

24:00 - Dave trying not to insult his debating partner by framing it as a second Protestant reformation, which of course lead to the incoherent race to the bottom we have now.

[@Jigsaw0097]

We need a restoration of a Christian Byzantine society, more Protestantism will not get us out of this godless mess. God bless Dave for these crazy conversations. They are [mostly] a waste of time as AA has said, but I enjoy them regardless. Liberalism has completely run its course at this stage.

[@gulanhem9495]

Fabulous episode. And Auron MacIntyre is up next, which means Ben Boyce has the best channel on KZbin right now.

[@jeopardyfan122]

What's the difference between Joel and your average post-war conservative? Who's he fooling. Doing the same thing over and over again is the definition of lunacy!

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

Chesterton in his wisdom wrote 'gate or fence', gates can be opened & closed, whilst fences have to be destroyed to be passed.

[@natsynmonbowl7205]

Great conversation, much better than the previous ones with Wokal or Neil. I think the unaddressed issue in these debates though, is using Christianity to oppose the politics of reactionaries begs the question, whose Christianity? Historically the greatest Christian theologians of all traditions (Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, John Chrysostom) had no problem with using state power to silence heretics and enforce their view of orthodoxy, for example. Can conservative evangelicals really condemn the use of state power in this way as un-Christian? These are men who dedicated their entire life to studying the faith, quoting a few bible verses is not going to be enough to dismiss them. And I think that’s the crux of the problem, in many ways the reactionary positions being condemned are in line with historic Christianity. I don’t believe that in a theological debate on the issues of Christian governance the conservative evangelicals will show reactionary positions to be un-Christian. Which leaves them unable to use Christianity as a catch-all in these political debates.

[@tylerbrown4082]

Exactly. Dave thinks he's debating Liberalism or the postwar consensus or something, but he's actually debating the presuppositions of protestantism.

[@BasedGauncho]

"These ideas go back 2000 years to christianity they go back even further with judaism." Oh boy, do we know about that.

[@JohnBaran-kw5jf]

Did Jesus blindly accept all people? Not at all: ------- *The Faith of the Canaanite Woman* Jesus withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon." But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said. But Jesus replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and *_toss it to the dogs.”_* “Yes, Lord” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” “Woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. ----- Yes, he gave the foreigner a miracle; but only because she admitted that she (and her entire race) were animals. Now, I can see people quoting all sorts of other versus to contradict this. But I see no definitive evidence in the Bible that Jesus supported multi-racial societies; especially societies where all the races live together, marry each other and blend together. Racial differences are real and are a product of evolution. Different races have different IQs, different cultures and different skill sets. Some races are good at sports, some are good at math and some are good at inventiveness. I don't think Jesus would have denied any of this.

[@Zathien]

28:44 He's talking about Murdoch Murdoch, it was a really big show around 2014ish with some episodes breaking 1 million before it was banned off the site. It still has some good episodes but it's mostly stuck in that time period.

[@JohnJourdan88]

This ‘Muh welfare’ meme needs to be retired. It was desegregation that ruined them

[@jercreason840]

It was whites not forcing the standard anymore

[@t.d.5590]

Correction: Huntington was not Paleoconservative. He was a Classical Liberal.

[@neilfrick5385]

I understand Dave's reticence to say it's all or almost all genetics vs culture, but you can simply look at adoption studies for this.

[@ManuelGiorgis]

@@neilfrick5385 adoption studies dont prove shit. Genetics is not why white culture is now all about porn, lgbt, feminism gender confusion etc....

[@WhiteWolf126]

@@ManuelGiorgis White? Or jewish?

[@hre2044]

culture is baked into ecology which is part of biology. it's all biological, you can't separate black culture away from blacks/blackness. they're intertwined.

[@gulanhem9495]

But to be fair, while adoption studies prove without the shadow of a doubt that differences between individuals are largely genetic, they don't tell much about differences between populations.

[@gulanhem9495]

@@CivilizedWasteland He means that Dave beated around the bush instead of just outright say it (that ethnic groups differ based on genetics).