Jane Boleyn: The Most Toxic In-Law in History?

Was Jane Boleyn, Lady Rochford really the villainess that some accounts would have us believe?
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Intro / Outro song: Silent Partner, "Greenery" [ • Greenery - Silent Part... ]
Images (from Wikimedia Commons, unless otherwise stated):
Portrait of Mary I by Master John (1544). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait drawing of an unidentified man, possibly George Boleyn, 2nd Viscount Rochford by Hans Holbein (c. 1532-43). Held by the Royal Collection.
Anonymous portrait attributed to Anne Boleyn (late 16th-century copy of a lost original of c. 1533-1536). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Katherine of Aragon by an unknown artist (early 18th century). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Portrait of Jane Seymour by Hans Holbein (circa 1536 -1537). Held by the Kunsthistorisches Museum.
Portrait of Anne of Cleves by Hans Holbein the Younger (c.1539). Held by the Louvre Museum, Paris.
Portrait miniature of a lady, perhaps Katherine Howard, by Hans Holbein the Younger (circa 1540). Held by the Royal Collection.

[@ReadingthePast]

Hello there, I'm seeing a lot of comments about audio issues; I'm not 100% sure why this is happening. I can hear the audio myself. To be safe I have taken advice and bought a new mic - we're going lav mic rather than the one I was using which attached to my DSLR. Hopefully, this will sort things before the next video. Thank you for being so kind and supportive in bringing this to my attention - thank you also, in advance, for your understanding and patience as I sort this issue out 🌟

[@leanie9660]

(I experienced no audio issues) re Jane Boleyn: yes, I have always thought of her as a scheming sociopath because of her depiction in The Tudors and in Tudor novels by Philippa Gregory, however, I was uncomfortable with the notion that she was pure evil yet, at the same time, so foolish. Thank you for a clearer, less skewed portrayal of this complex, scarcely understood, historical figure.

[@janicethompson7350]

Audio was just fine for me.

[@kevinjewell233]

Lady Rochford by all appearances is a schemer, she loves the intrigues of court life and will do anything to be at the center of the action, a confident to multiple Queens, sounds more like a manipulator and amoral woman. Some people are happiest when manipulating others lives and being "in on the secret" with little regard to the implications nor the consequences.

[@menda74]

@@leanie9660 LOVE the Philippa Gregory novels. Ms. Jane does NOT come off well in those tho

[@mellie4174]

Ya i had no audio issues

[@emholmes1]

I wonder if she hedged her bets that Katherine would outlive Henry, and therefore helped Katherine get what she wanted. Katherine was so young, and Henry so ill, that maybe Jane thought Henry would be dead soon enough that they wouldn't get caught. The idea of using Culpepper to create a child that could be passed off as a new Tudor prince or princess is also intriguing. It might make sense that Jane, who knew Henry's history of struggling to produce healthy children, was worried about Katherine's ability to produce an heir. When we're thinking about political choices at Tudor court, I think the first question to ask is how would that action benefit the actor or their interests? I wonder if Jane, who seems to have previously made some bold political moves, thought that Katherine was her chance at stability and wealth. Jane was wealthy, but due to an allowance from her father in law. When your income is dependent on others, life can be very unpredictable, and I could understand Jane wanting to secure something more stable for herself. Maybe she just lost contact with reality after her husband was executed and she survived. Maybe she thought her political abilities were better than they were or maybe not getting caught gave her overconfidence, but I struggle to see her actions as anything other than intentional and calculated. Over the course of history so many people have supported the wrong faction and paid for it. I think this is just another case of picking the 'wrong' person or people to support.

[@angelasmith5174]

Was Jane not a cousin of the King. I think I read that somewhere, that Jane's Father was the King's cousin.

[@AmberGraves80]

I completely agree with you. I think Jane saw an opportunity for the future and bet on the wrong horse. I can clearly see her saying in Katherine Howard's ear that she needed to have a baby by any means necessary. And Henry was so sick, probably impotent, and disgusting to have sex with, pushing her toward Culpepper ( who, if the portrait I saw us accurate, kind of resembles Henry) would make perfect sense.

[@williethomas5116]

@@angelasmith5174 that would make her his cousin once removed. But from my understanding her grandmother Alice St. John was the first cousin of Henry VII. Alice was the daughter of Sir John St John The older half brother of Margaret Beaufort from her mom's first marriage to Sir Oliver St. John. Her father Sir Henry Parker was Alice's son Thus she and Henry VIII should be second cousins once removed. Sharing a great-grandmother/great-great grandmother in Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso. Her father Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso Sir John St. John Alice St. John Sir Henry Parker Jane Parker Viscountess Rochford Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso Margaret Beaufort Countess Richmond Henry VII Henry VIII

[@hermanubis7046]

@@AmberGraves80 but if Henry was impotent, he would have known that Katherine Howard couldn't have been pregnant by him? Would he have been willing to accept a son fathered by somebody else and pass it as his own, only prove to people he was capable of fathering children?

[@zu182]

I think Henry would of been to proud to accept the fact that he was impotent and if Katherine was to have a baby his ego would allow him to believe it was his

[@redalcock4704]

I found this really fascinating. As a woman Jane Boleyn probably got more of the blame than she deserves. I think that Henry wanted to get rid of Anne and he expects people to enable this to happen. Jane was just another pawn in his tyrannical reign

[@Justme0288]

A line many pawns for his happiness that just ends up being his misery.

[@anthonytroisi6682]

Jane Rochford helped Henry get rid of Anne, a woman who supposedly committed adultery. Because she did not immediately report her doubts about Amme's supposed indiscretions, she was not exactly been a commendable guardian of a Queen's virtue. Making Jane one of Katherine Howard's ladies-in-waiting, he was rewarding Jane for her help in incriminating Anne. If Jane Rochford had connived with the Boleyn's in the beginning, why did he trust Jane's suitability to set a good example for Katherine Howard? If she had not been able to, from Henry's viewpoint, keep Anne from betraying her marriage vows, why did Henry think she could prevent chaperone the extremely young and vulnerable Catherine Howard?

[@lynnedelacy2841]

You can imagine her being under pressure being questioned about the men potentially going in and out of Anne’s chambers and her saying ‘no no, just her brother who is a loving support to her’ Something as innocuous as that, which was leapt on and twisted into the incest accusation

[@motorcitymangababe]

Thus is what i think is most likely

[@janvan113]

That is a very insightful interpretation of a very possible scenario. She could have made what she thought was an innocent comment which was then twisted to mean something else.

[@YT4Me57]

Could very much have happened like that.

[@patricianunes3521]

@@janvan113 I agree. Her innocent comments could have been twisted to be used against Anne Boleyn & George

[@annmitchell4663]

I'm sure the threat of torture/death swayed her thinking too.

[@wilmwoodfilms1835]

Thank you for bringing historical figures off the dusty page and presenting them as the complicated, multi-faceted, flesh and blood people they were! 🙌🙌

[@glorialange6446]

I still stand by my former statement, yet having reexamined Jane and the circumstances, and watching this video and others, there is something else which struck me. Could Jane have fallen so easily into a plan for KH to become pregnant by TC not only to insure her own place, but for a deep seated resentment, even hatred of King Henry and REVENGE for her husbands death... maybe she saw a child not from King Henrys loins as a way to get back at him for the lies and murder of her husband and Anne, and having to accept less than what she saw as her due... How many people were honestly unafraid of King Henrys moods, whims and demands? And if Katherine Howard had become pregnant with a son everyone would have benefitted...

[@kathleenem9207]

Interesting theory and just as plausible as any other.

[@superhetoric]

adore this idea!

[@Roz-y2d]

Yes, I believe this could be true. It’s something I’d consider in the same circumstances. But Henry’s line ended anyway. Elizabeth I knew what she was doing, and avenged her mother in the only way she could.... remain unmarried and childless. Then she handed the throne to the Scots. Priceless.🤣

[@futuremrsleeminho1922]

@@Roz-y2dElizabeth I even on her last breath refused to outright name a successor even though she knew it would probably be to King James.

[@foxenandfamily5060]

How wonderful that you had the opportunity to portray Lady Rochford! One summer recently, while I was portraying a shopkeeper at our local Renaissance faire (I'm told this is mainly an American thing, not terribly historically accurate but an absolute blast nonetheless), I ran into a patron who did a pretty good portrayal of Anne Boleyn, right down to the B necklace. I sat down next to her and we talked a bit, and as I was making my farewells I said, "Mind your neck, madam, remember that t'is only a little one."

[@Mairiain]

Your voice was very quiet for me for some reason, so when I got to the music part of the introduction, I jumped out of my seat because I had turned it way up :) I'm awake! I'm awake! Thanks for this video. Very interesting!

[@TheTam0613]

I'm glad it's not just me. I can't really hear her voice. And this is such a fascinating topic!

[@kkfox7822]

@@TheTam0613 Same! I ended up stopping the video. :(

[@cindyrobinson3077]

Me too

[@cathiematthews1359]

haha that was me too. Dr Kat was just trying to make sure everyone was awake!

[@galadriel3134]

I use a HP Mini when listening w my phone and with my tablet I use a slightly larger external loudspeaker (bluetooth) that makes almost all vids much easier to hear

[@kirstena4001]

Just saw this pop up, and thought 'yes, what a way to start the weekend!!!'

[@nataliegreco7439]

Lol same here!!!!

[@pmugglestone]

I think one thing that is definitely known is that Tudor Court was a dangerous place. I think a woman such a Jane could have been easily manipulated and coerced by powerful men to undertake things not necessarily in her best interests. Everyone knew the fate of the Queen’s who did not produce a male heir; perhaps it’s possible that Jane was trying to save Catherine’s life by any means to produce that “heir.” I think the true story is probably very complex when considering all the players in a game of survival. Love this channel and all the videos-it makes my week when a new one is uploaded. I too tell everyone I know to check you out! Bravo on 30,000 subscribers!

[@hogwashmcturnip8930]

The cuckoo heir theory is a good one, but it depends on Henry and Catherine actually sleeping together. It seems (imo) quite likely that by the time of their marriage the 'impotence' hinted at in the Boleyn trial may have become ingrained. Remember he claimed he could not consummate his marriage with Ann of Cleves because he 'liked her not' and she 'smelled' (Pretty rich coming from an obese bloke with a stinky ulcer) What if the real reason was because he could not get it up? In which case it is a very dangerous game to be playing. We know Henry called her his 'Rose without a Thorn' but I don't think even he was so blinded by infatuation as to believe she was capable of an Immaculate Conception!

[@iloveyourunclebob]

@@hogwashmcturnip8930 I do have to assume that they at least slept together a few times. I doubt they had a wild sex life, but Howard wasn't AS silly as she's often portrayed. I'm not saying she was Anne Boleyn or Catherine of Aragon smart, but I do believe she does deserve some credit. Seeing as though, besides Parr, Howard was the only one with KNOWN sexual experience before marrying, I think it's safe to say she was at least smart enough to know what would happen to her if she got pregnant without having sex with Henry in a reasonable amount of time. Plus, if you factor how Henry and Catherine's relationship went before it really went downhill, it does kind of fit with something behind the scenes. He would get into moods where he didn't want anything to do with her AND was thinking of divorcing her. If it was just the former, it could easily be applied to his health, but also divorcing too? From what we know of Henry, especially post Jane, this does kind of fit with him not being able to preform and blaming the woman. Of course it's not actual evidence because a lot can happen over months. Just knowing what we know about Henry, there are really good odds that whatever she did to upset him during those times was really all him. With no actual evidence of Jane being the woman she's often portrayed as, there are few reasons that make any sense for her to get involved with Howard and Culpepper.

[@ReadingthePast]

I agree, the only way that my planned fake prince theory could work was if H & K were having the occasional semblance of a sex life.

[@jenniferschillig3768]

@@ReadingthePast That's the theory put forth in Philippa Gregory's The Boleyn Inheritance (very good) and the YA novel The King's Rose (good, but not great).

[@fleetskipper1810]

I agree with you. Henry’s court had to have been a very complex and treacherous place to be, abounding with all kinds of unwritten rules that may not have come down to us in full detail through historical accounts. Those social norms encouraged deceitful behavior that functioned as a survival mechanism. The nobles included in the highest Royal circles moved in a sequestered, hyper-vigilant atmosphere. Most of them didn’t have wide experience with other classes. Women, in particular, were valued as breeding stock, one step above chattel. It may be that Lady Rochford made the most of the tools she had to work with. She survived longer than many. She almost outlived Henry. Lady Rochford lasted through quite a number of twists and turns. This indicates that she was either more duplicitous than her peers or just luckier. Henry was a raging narcissist to begin with and, as he got older, sicker, and more desperate to bend the world to his will, he must’ve been like living with a volcano that could irrupt it anytime. Not a life I would have liked to have had.

[@syeco1986]

Absolutely loving your videos. Your channel is my favourite lockdown discovery. Thank you for doing them.

[@dalehoward3704]

ME TOO👍👌♥️❤️

[@yvettejones5323]

I believe it's completely possible that Jane's mental breakdown was real.

[@conquesotador]

I can’t wrap my head around how someone, especially like Jane, could stay at court after witnessing the irrational wrath of Henry VIII. Talk about a loose end.

[@alysencameron361]

Women of that day, as far as I've read, did not have much in the way of choice. One was told they were to serve in a specific position for specific people, as the males negotiated. It is possible Lady Rochford was not as politcally savvy as Dr Kat presents, thus being easily ensnared in the wranglings of power plays. It was a volatile court full of superstitions requiring , and as a testament in Elizabeth 1, intelligence to be a successful participant.

[@conquesotador]

Alysen Cameron that is so true, it is appalling how little say women had in their own affairs in those days. It may well have been the case for Jane. However, like Dr Kat mentioned, it is unusual that Henry VIII would have allowed her to stay at court after the downfall of the family she was married into. Unless she helped him by testifying, or maybe Jane Seymour asked for her specifically? Then again, Howard stayed at the court after both Anne and Catherine, so who knows. Such a mystery, le sigh.

[@conquesotador]

I just don’t understand why she would stay there if she had a choice, but you’re probably right Alysen, she more than likely didn’t have a choice either way. Sorry my last comment went rambling lol.

[@jaymesguy239]

The court was where the gravy was doled out. Everyone wanted to be there in a position they could use for their own ends and to advance the family firm.

[@conquesotador]

Jaymes Guy scary stuff, huh? What a strange time in history. Tudor social media.

[@roslynholcomb]

Jane Boleyn and her possible motivations have fascinated me for years. I’ve never believed she made that statement about George and Anne because that would be a really stupid move and especially after a decade in that family and having been at court for so long she would certainly know better. Destroying the Boleyn’s would ultimately lead to her own downfall. As for her motivation for helping Katherine Howard I teeter back and forth between revenge and some type of mental break. The king had literally destroyed her whole family yet, she was forced to remain at court in service to subsequent queens. I could certainly see her finally drifting away from reality as Henry grew steadily more brutal and horrifying. It was probably a combination of both.

[@indiciaobscure]

I could see her growing close to Katherine because she didn't seem to have any close ties or recorded friendships. That didn't mean there WEREN'T any, but I just read her biography and though people helped her, it seems to be tit for tat and she seems very isolated figure. She had no children or romantic interests, so perhaps she developed a maternal/aunt bond with a girl who was very important and also attached to her. That doesn't mean she should be helping her endanger herself, but deep attachment when we have no one else can be very powerful.

[@debraa.murray1231]

I'm a retired nurse from the USA with an interest in medicine and English history. I love your presentations. Please do one on diseases of medieval times...what was sweating sickness?

[@YT4Me57]

Wow, are you the storyteller! You had me spellbound from beginning to end. What a horrible end for Katherine and Jane. I can't imagine witnessing my friend being dispatched in such a manner knowing I'm next; and yet bravely giving testimony to her faith in God. She was very foolish to involve herself in such clandestine subterfuge. Here experience with Anne and her husband George should have been enough. Thank you for sharing this bit of history. What a bloody era. All of England must have breathed a sign of relief when Henry died.

[@kirstena4001]

I'm shivering! I definitely thought of Jane Boleyn as a nasty piece of work, due, as you say, to her portrayal in historical fiction, but you have given me interesting food for thought.

[@charlotrisch5138]

I still think Jane was a nasty piece of work

[@leanie5234]

I love that you explore a different version of Jane. I always had trouble believing that she was so nasty/evil/one dimensional. I'm sure she did what everyone did at Henry's court; try to stay on the king's good side. If Henry knew that the "evidence" against Anne was fictitious, he may well have opted to "forgive" those who had gone along with his narrative. He certainly continued to support the Duke of Norfolk, and he did not impoverish Thomas Boleyne. I'm sure that Henry just wanted to put it all behind him.

[@kateh2007]

I so love these uploads Dr. Kat. I appreciate that you don't go for the obvious characters from our history. I value your empathy towards them and how you show us that people in the past were three dimensional, just as we are today, despite their rank, marriages, intrigues, trappings of wealth and privilege. You bring them back to us absolutely, along with their hopes, dreams, jealousies, loves, fears etc. I've always thought it strange that Jane stayed on at court and didn't lose her properties, title or character which would be highly unusual for the wife of an executed traitor. Tbh I've always thought of her as a "bit" player in the wrong place at the wrong time or an innocent bystander, until now. I begin to understand that she was far more. She must have been highly intelligent, astute, stronger and more "canny" than she's given credit for. Whatever her motives and actions she must have had to walk an extremely fine line given the machinations, not least from some frighteningly powerful characters such as Thomas Cromwell, and the hotbed of dangerous gossip within the Royal court surrounding her. The flashbacks to her family's downfall and the horror of the fate she knew would inevitably await her would I'm sure bring on some type of nervous breakdown. To me she's all the more impressive as she was a then unmarried woman alone, from a "fallen" family. Of course I'm sure that she was grateful at times for her uncle!! I now see her in a decidedly different light and am curious about her motives. Btw you looked amazing in the photograph as Jane. I hope that you and Jaime are both safe and well. PS. Thanks again for your previous book recommendations, I've devoured each one with relish ❤

[@daylightstars3476]

Enjoyed this one. I enjoyed her presence in The Tudors TV series.

[@kristenkallstrom9018]

I would be most interested to hear you talk about Catherine Howard, herself. She seems to me have had a very sad, neglected childhood that led her to look for love in all the wrong places, until she was forced to become a pawn in a lethal game that she had little control over. I think she might actually be the most tragic of Henry’s wives...but what do you think? 😉

[@tsuritsa3105]

To me "looking for love" even is a stretch. She strikes me as a child that was groomed by adult men to satisfy their sexual desires and then forced into marriage with the King, for which she was entirely unprepared and unsuited, by ruthless family members and a monarch who would not be denied something he wanted.

[@ryanborder189]

I think yours is a really childish comment

[@superhetoric]

​@@ryanborder189 do elaborate.

[@ryanborder189]

@@superhetoric You are judging people from 500 years ago by the values of today-they simply would not have thought about life in the same way we did. She was delighted to become Queen because of the lavish lifestyle she would have enjoyed. Her immaturity did not let her realise she was playing with fire.

[@Grace-tc1lq]

@@ryanborder189Several assumptions here so you are judging as well, someone you did not know. None of us have any idea, we can guess but it is only a guess.

[@Thepourdeuxchanson]

Well you've done it again - made me wonder if what I thought I knew about Lady Rochford was quite accurate. I had got my notion of her from Hilary Mantel, who based her fictionalized accounts upon and from close research. So I had a picture of a bitter and clever woman who hated her womanizing husband to whom she had been contracted with no say of her own, for all that it was commonplace at the time. But your analysis and research gives a different notion. Now I have to go away and think. I know you like to make people think. Thank you again - I so enjoy your presentations.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

I truly think figuring out what was happening in the hearts of those involved here is terribly difficult. The two really strange things that stand out are (1) Her survival when the rest of the Boleyn faction fell, and (2) Her taking part in treasonous activity on behalf of Catherine Howards. As far as #1 goes, one can understand the likely source of her survival, even full return to court--namely, that she provided something of value, proving her loyalty was to the King. Given the alternative, I can well believe she broke and told a lie. This of course does not make her a villain but rather someone terrified. This makes #2 a likely case of some complex emotional motivations, as well as perhaps attempting to simply back the wrong horse. Either way, there is precious little clarity about her heart, her mind, her emotional state. We are left to imagine what scenario makes the most sense to us as individuals.

[@elizabethlinehan2576]

Love you and Claire. Both of you have such an unbiased grasp of the Tudors.

[@flanamom]

Love your channel, you've quickly become one of my most watched for very good reason - subject matter, presentation, many reasons! Is anybody else having trouble with the sound on this particular video, or just me? The intro music came in loud and clear, but I had to crank the volume way up for the speaking part. I don't want to miss a single word of Dr. Kat's always-fascinating talks!

[@janvan113]

Thank you Dr. Kat for bringing to light so many details that are not usually heard. Your ability to bring out the layers in historical figures is absolutely fascinating. After learning of her writing a letter of support to George as he was in the tower, I have a more favorable opinion of Lady Jane Rochford than I previously did. That fact alone seems to point in a different direction than her being the one to cast blame for incest. And as you also pointed out, it seems unlikely that she would purposely jeopardize her own position by having her husband accused of treason. I hadn't thought about that before. I was very interested to see this new video, with a chance to learn more about her, and hear your interpretation of events. Loved it!

[@lindahedley9049]

I’ve just found your page today, I have stood in the kitchen doing my Christmas baking and just listened to you talking. 4 hours later I am hooked, thank you so much and Best wishes for Christmas and New Year x

[@jacquelinek5036]

Dr. Kat acknowledged her potential bias at the beginning of the video and by doing so invited us to examine our own biases. Just as it is nearly impossible for westerners to understand the almost sacred responsibility of host for guest in Middle Eastern cultures, it is very difficult for the 21st century woman to imagine the pressure felt by a lady in the Tudor court. Now, I don't think I could walk to work past my husband's head on a pike unless I really hated him. (Figure of speech... no commutes past spikes were necessary.) But what options did Jane have? It's not as though she could freshen up her resume and start networking. "Experienced lady-in-waiting seeks new position with potential for growth. Will work for food and silk fabric. Available immediately."

[@rikki1960]

I think that she was really just a nasty piece of work who got well over her head but always got lucky and found a way out to save herself, and because she was a manipulative, stirring trouble sort of person it made her easy prey to also be manipulated by much more intelligent and powerful people. We sometimes in life come across people not dissimilar to this type of person and they always get their comeuppance in the end. I think she was a "fake friend" type and probably has a well deserved reputation as a villainess.

[@indiciaobscure]

I'm just wondering what you are basing this on.

[@joshuaowensjr8694]

@@indiciaobscure nothing nothing at all just his interpretation

[@cass9229]

Just found out she’s my 17th great grand aunt thank you this was so informational

[@RogieVixen]

I’m so glad you are speaking up for Jane. I first saw you speak about her on the documentary headed by Tracy Borman. For a few years now I’ve thought of Jane as innocent concerning Anne and George. For centuries everyone just assumes Jane’s guilt as fact, the same they assume as fact Jane and Anne hated each other and that Jane and George’s marriage was miserable, and that needs to stop. Thank God for people like you, Julia Fox, Adrienne Dillard, and Charlie Fenton. As for the Katheryn Howard mess … can you say no to your queen when they instruct you to follow their orders? She was certainly thrown under the bus for it … and now here we are all these centuries later, with Jane still being the one to blame for it all.

[@robertwescott8894]

i think her bad reputation was enhanced by Shelia Burrell's excellent but rather sinister performance in 1970's The Six Wives of Henry VIII.

[@indiciaobscure]

I rented those videos when I was 16 and the name 'Lady Rochfort' still has a sinister ring to me because of that series.

[@ladylucia917]

The dress you wear in that picture is amazing! It suits you really well ❤

[@sixeses]

Thank you for the informative and balanced video. Jane Boleyn( Berlin in the closed captioning) is a difficult case. I would almost always give the woman the benefit of the doubt, but since this happened twice, it looks pretty bad. The third Duke of Norfolk was probably using her, but it still makes little sense. I read somewhere years ago that the 4th Duke of Norfolk went quite mad in 1572 after repeated warrants for his execution were withdrawn by the Queen, only to be executed on the fourth warrant.

[@moonshayde]

Stafford is one of my maternal line of ancestors so I love discovering about the history of those times.

[@karenbaird8795]

I didn’t know a thing about Jane Boleyn, thank you so much for these captivating lessons🤓

[@ladymofsquarefield3317]

Great video 👍. I know that I have harbored an unfair bias against Jane, due mostly to the way she is portrayed in historical fiction and how historians have treated her in the past. I never really thought about how truly terrifying those experiences must have been for her or how much trauma she probably carried with her. Awesome work!

[@ports10r]

I found your videos and found them amazing. A fresh but realistic look at history..THANK YOU!

[@mary-sueruiter6671]

The ad is still playing. I’m so excited to see where you will take us with this one! I tell EVERYONE about you lol. Thanks for this. Thank to Jamie too. Feel like your family

[@zanthinegirliest2455]

To answer your question: this video did indeed temper my opinion of Lady Rochford. Granted it could only have gone up; my opinion coming into this video was about as bad as it could be!I suspect I've read too much historical fiction. This video was fascinating and very thought provoking. Thanks so much for the food for thought!

[@carolthomas6476]

Thank you for your thorough and thought provoking presentation on Lady Rochford. It seems to me regarding her involvement with Queen Catherine's trysts with Culpepper that she was unable to control her natural tendencies toward mischief. She obviously enjoyed being the go-between the two and maybe even encouraged it thinking she might never be caught.

[@Sabrinajaine]

I don't see the motivation for Jane to take down Anne and George, when it would mean dire financial and social consequences. She's a scapegoat for history and interestingly no one ever talks about Elizabeth Browne, a supposed friend of Anne, who spread rumours about Anne and testified against her

[@harrietlyall1991]

Yes definitely, the hypothesis that they were desperately trying to get Katherine Howard pregnant sounds plausible. By that time, Henry was likely impotent, yet they needed to produce an heir at all costs. It makes sense that they would risk everything to accomplish that outcome. To think of those two lovely young women being accused without trial, imprisoned and finally hacked to death on the executioner’s block, is gut-wrenching. It is consoling, however, that the accounts of their exemplary dignity at the end, and the charitable verdict of history, have redeemed their memory.

[@amyrat151]

Henry was able to have sex with Howard, so he wasn't impotent. Infertile, is likely though. People tend to put the blame on Katherine for not conceiving a baby, but them seem to forget Henry was 49 when he married her and had a fair few health problems.

[@annmitchell4663]

@@amyrat151 He was a corpulant, diseased, old man..it's likely he could not produce any more children,but as usual the women got the blame for being unable to produce a child.

[@Elizabeth-nt7uq]

I think she should have learned from her first go round with His Magesty, to Not play him! I don't know if I wouldn't have run away at first mention of my involvement in treasonous infidelity; with my fingers in my ears, yelling na na na na I can't hear you!

[@suzyqc7607able]

Brilliant. I agree entirely. But, perhaps it has already been perfectly summed up as this.. "One Must walk in a man's shoes Before He has the right or privilege to make a remark upon His plight."

[@ReadingthePast]

Beautifully put! But, do you not think that the investiging history requires people to do the opposite?

[@TanyaRando]

Very interesting, gave me a better understanding of Jane Boleyn - the woman caught up in an awkward and perilous court and trying to survive! Thankyou Dr Kat.

[@silversweet9211]

For a long time I thought Jane Boleyn was the lynch pin that brought George and Anne down. Yet the more evidence that comes out and the more we learn as the years go by, I have to feel at least in the case of Anne and George Jane was innocent.

[@MsJubjubbird]

I think that was Cromwell. If Jane hadn't said anything they would have found someone else who would. I think she said something, given she was saved, but not necessarily out of spite

[@santi7616]

Lady Rochford is my favorite historical personality of the Tudor era, she saw a lot, she was there, 5 queens she attended, there should be more novels with her as the protagonist of the book 😉 thank you for the video and all your others, they're so awesome thank you 🥇😉

[@hermanubis7046]

All we know of these people is what others have written about them; if they liked them or had something to gain by portraying them in a positive or negative light (to please the king and to keep their heads), they would have done so without thinking twice about it.

[@bmhd6598]

I don't know that I had a negative view of her. I did not see her as evil, but I did wonder why people of court gave her their confidences. Your explanation seems to make that make sense.

[@marciamayfield9601]

I absolutely love your videos your voice is amazing it's calming and I have severe mental disabilities I could listen to you all day long but the music you put with your videos makes it almost impossible baby

[@petunijadu]

I have to confess that I've been under the influence of literature and movies, thinking for a very long time, that Jane was jealous wife, who participated in the murder of her husband and sister in law. It was Claire Ridgway who first changed my mind. I'm always happy to find balanced report on the basis of the evidence. I think that Jane had a good relationship with her husband and sister in law. I think it is possible, that she saw a daughter in Catherine Howard, trying to help her, but failed and then she had enough - all of her people gone, she went and died almost gladly. It is not fair she is portrayed as a villain. Thank you for this video. Maybe, if someday you are in search for the theme of the video - I've always been intrigued by Stanley family , but not know much about them. But I think the influenced the history much more than people are aware.

[@frightbat208]

petunijadu same. It wasn’t until after watching Claire’s videos that I realised I was a victim of Philippa Gregory fiction. I love her books but I can’t read them ever again. ☺️ I’m glad I read them first though.

[@kristencotty4439]

@@frightbat208 she really seems to hate the Tudors, as much as she writes them, they aren't very happy

[@bubbles9287]

I had an entirely different opinion going into this video. You’ve given such great detail that I’ve come to see her in a new light. I just found your channel and I’m in love! This is my favorite period of history and I can’t thank you enough for sharing your knowledge. ❤️

[@laurac8659]

You’re amazing! Thank you for your views, so interesting!

[@jamesblair18]

I believe the truth about the Boleyn family may never be known in entirety. They lost and history, they say, is written by the victors. From one dyslexic scholar to another.

[@JenniferA.Minnear-Salaza-jb4qf]

Claire Ridgeway, reported of someone reporting that King Henry VIII , on his death bed, saying he regretted what he did, to the Boelyns. {First set of executions seem an over action, about report of his impotence. Queen Anne did disloyally let it become known.}.

[@rosemarienin9823]

James Blair lost? Let’s not forget that the greatest queen of England was, after all, a Boleyn!

[@namelia4439]

Rose Marie Nin - not just the greatest queen of England...one of their greatest monarchs of all time!!

[@JenniferA.Minnear-Salaza-jb4qf]

@@namelia4439 , speaking of 'greatest' - I just grew-up speaking 'US English', so IDK. But people have compared Queen Elizabeth to King Henry VIII, (saying he was a better king ) they implied she was not as good a monarch as him: but I disagree - they were biased against her for female: she did not have the interpersonal problems he had ( Like to deliberately kill more than one 'legal' wife! ). She did not go into battle, but as Queen, she could make sure the ones doing those parts were the best available, unlike if the King was not best, at top general. The people in her time were very sexist, and customs excluded women: even the famous Shakespeare plays had males playing females when acted out in that time-period.

[@hannyhawkins7804]

Jennifer A. Minnear - Salazar I’m surprised. I’ve never heard anyone argue that Henry was a better monarch. He was a spendthrift, leaving his kingdom’s finances in a parlours state. He let his ego and moods affect foreign policy and crucial alliances; he was of course a ruthless and bloody tyrant, sending long serving loyal courtiers to the block s well as several wives; he cruelty and carnage of his dissolution of the monasteries and his harrying of the north after its rebellion were reigns of terror. Is there a single aspect anyone can offer, where Henry governed better than Elizabeth? I can’t think of one.

[@staceyeskelin6859]

FASCINATING. I love, love, love your thoughtful analyses (I've watched three so far and intend to watch all.) Here are some thoughts. Jane was first and foremost a creature of the court. From a very early age, she'd learned to navigate that rabbit's warren of intrigue and treachery. To be deprived of her milieu, which is what happened after she failed in her commission by Queen Anne to remove Madge Shelton from court, must have stung. It would have been human nature for her to ask her husband and sister-in-law to use their influence to effect her reinstatement. I suspect her opinion was they didn't try hard enough, ergo her decision to agitate on behalf of the Lady Mary (in defiance of all of Queen Anne's interests). I think she was enraged. However much we may empathize with Anne Boleyn (well, I do, at least), our partiality cannot blind us to the fact that Anne was only sporadically capable of kindness. She was high-strung, temperamental--not an easy woman to work for. I'm not sure she and Jane were anything more than friends of convenience. And if Jane did at one point love her husband, a charming if somewhat feckless young man, wouldn't she have been somewhat resentful at his natural simpatico with his sister? Yet Jane was still made of human parts. In Cromwell's terrifying hands she may have been biddable, but her conscience must have smote her. For me, the waters get a lot more opaque once we reach the Kathryn Howard days. Like you, I wonder if Kathryn and Jane conspired to have Kathryn conceive an heir by any means possible. What closure or satisfaction did Jane receive by facilitating these dangerous rendezvous between Kathryn and Culpeper? And what did the king hope to gain by showering Jane with the best medical care during her convalescence? Great stuff. Consider me a huge fan of your vlog. I'll be watching many more in the future.

[@nckoes]

Wow! Congrats on passing 31k subscribers! I enjoy your presentations so much. Every time I think- Oh, she forgot about that detail- you come through with the goods!

[@LindaLinda80Linda]

It’s natural you would have a bias as any good actor finds ways to justify their character’s actions and motives. That Thomas Howard was pulling the strings makes perfect sense. However, Jane seems to have always wanted to be where the celebrity and power was. She seems envious of the center roles others had, trying to insert herself as much as possible. It excited her to be in with the in-crowd. I think she was silly and lacked good judgement. Not evil, just easily corrupted.

[@andrewogus8049]

I can't help thinking Jane Rochford enjoyed intrigue for its own sake. She was too ambitious to leave the court - after all, she served five out of six of Henry's Queens. And she was certainly in a position to blackmail Thomas Boleyn into increasing her allowance. Despite Dr. Kat, I still regard Jane Rochford as a conniver who ended up destroying herself as well as others.

[@indiciaobscure]

I mean it wasn't blackmail. Her father had given her 1,000 pounds for her widow's portion on her marriage, and Henry VIII had added an extra 1,000. Thomas Boleyn ignored what Henry had contributed and only gave her half of what she was due. I agree she destroyed herself, but there's no proof she destroyed others. In fact there is far more proof that Thomas Boleyn himself participated in and enjoyed intrigue.

[@andrewogus8049]

I believe there is proof she testified against her own husband, and she confessed to helping Katherine Howard meet Culpepper. Jane Boleyn must have known what would happen if/when Henry found out, but she did it despite the risks. Ah, adrenaline, it's a wonderful thing..

[@ninap451]

A bit late to the party but I've only just discovered your channel. I love the way that you explain history - it's interesting and compelling without being sensationalised. Thank you :)

[@Elvertaw]

I’ve recently discovered your videos and they are fantastic! I’m an Anglophile and have watches everything about British Royalty since the 1970’s PBS version of Henry VIII. Jane Bolin, the lady Rochford has always been portrayed as an evil person. Listening to your video though it gives me pause. She may not have been completely evil, she may not have been completely good. But a woman of her time trying to navigate a political situation that had volatile elements that were not completely under her control. So she did not have the complete picture, what was exactly going on in Henry’s mind,and was working from an incomplete picture. She was not as clever as she thought. But then, that’s how a lot of people ended up on the block.

[@ButterflyEars60]

I think you are spot on! I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You always bring a fresh look at your subjects. You are incredibly insightful! Thanks so very much for all the work and time you put into these efforts!😄❤

[@SunflowerSpotlight]

Your videos are always so interesting and enlightening, even on topics I'm relatively well versed on. I don't read or watch nonfiction as part of my Sabbath observances, and I've begun really looking forward to delving into your videos on those days. Your empathy towards this divisive historical person is really honorable, and I think it bears keeping in mind; we hear only the echoes of history and it's important to keep that in mind when judging figures harshly. Keep up the wonderful work; we're so here for it!

[@leticiagarcia9025]

I knew she wrote a letter to George when he was in the Tower of London. I read the Downfall of Anne Boleyn and the George Boleyn history novels from Claire Ridgeway. Before I read them I thought she was spiteful and vindictive. I couldn’t be more wrong. As for her remaining in court, I believe she had no choice. Your video and your interpretation of Lady Rochford was amazing. I love your videos.

[@frightbat208]

Leticia Garcia Claire is awesome. Have you subscribed to her channel?

[@lexomil1414]

@@frightbat208 I agree, My pleasure is to watch both Dr Kat and Claire Ridgeway videos because they always give documents from primary sources. It gives new light to events we heard of, read about or watched in series or movies. I love historical fiction like Philippa Gregory's but I always check after what is real from what she made up as a novelist.

[@leticiagarcia9025]

Fright Bat Yes I have.

[@leticiagarcia9025]

Elvira de Bord I agree. I look forward to see their videos. I also like Philippa Gregory’s novels. I’m looking forward for season 2 of the Spanish Princess.

[@annebowman5954]

@@lexomil1414 Me too..

[@marpop4056]

I love the fact that you always give a balanced view of historical figures who have, in many cases, been reviled for centuries. I'm wondering how ladies were chosen to be part of the court, and especially to be ladies in waiting. Were they put forward by male relatives? Would they have been allowed to decline? I would also like to request that you do a program on Katherine de Roet Swynford, who married John of Gaunt. The various family connections to Geoffrey Chaucer and the Beaufort lineage are so interesting.

[@ReadingthePast]

Great question, for the most part places at court (for men and women) were a recognition of the prominence of the family coupled with the favour of the monarch. If they did not shine in that place as a credit to their family, it is highly possible they would be allowed to become insignificant by that family, particularly if they had another "better" candidate primed to take the place. Katherine and John of Gaunt are on my list for the future.

[@erikamoore6164]

This was fascinating! I've wondered about Jane Boleyn ever since that BBC mini series about Henry VIII in the 70s, with Keith Michell. Both that series and Phillippa Gregory's novels implied that, although she was not a very nice woman, she did not deliberately betray George and Anne Boleyn. She was given a confession written by someone else (the cardinal?) and told to sign this or die.

[@jacquelinekirkpatrick8028]

I've got my volume up (and keyboard up) to 100% so the sound is fairly OK. The music is very loud, but then Dr Kat's volume goes down again after that to fairly OK. After watching two Dr Kat videos I've subscribed. I hardly ever do that. This woman is a historical gem!

[@cambriavictory]

This is my favorite video yet. I love knowing more intimate details about historical figures lives. We can imagine the dread Lady Rochford must have felt. The mental breakdown that assuredly she must have been experienced. I just can't imagine why Lady Rochford would be so brazen as to assist the young queen in an affair. I think you are right, in that there was family pressure to do so. Sadly, it cost her everything. I loved this video Dr. Kat. I have come away with deep thoughts and empathy for not just Lady Rochford, but for most women that have lived Richard's Tudor Court. So much drama, so much pressure to fulfill a prince for the king, when he obviously had medical problems that affected his ability to... well, you know. Sadly, he when he finally was born a prince, he lost another Queen. This Queen he seemed to have genuinely loved, or at least to have had affection for. His court had it all; Schemings, Trauma, Lies and deceit, Tragedy, Death and Birth. The most amazing thing to come out of this Patriarchal court was the birth of 2 strong women that would go on to rule a matriarchal court. One for a short time and was given a rather unfair bloody moniker. The other, to rule for her adult life, as she ushered in the new Elizabethan Britain.

[@МарияИвликова]

Interesting theory about the reason behind Jane's help for Katherine's love life. But still, Henry has a heir at the time, Edward. Most likely someone asked Jane to help the Queen, but was it Katherine herself, or someone who was Queen's foe and wanted next woman on a throne? May be Jane was told that she should help Queen and Culpeper, then just make a statements in trial, like it was in Boleyn's case, and they promised set her free. When Jane finally realised in what danger she got herself, she has a mental breakdown(((

[@Myke_OBrien]

An excellent presentation as always. I could listen to you all day. To chat about this period over a pot of tea, and a nice sponge, would be a dream come true. I must admit you’ve softened my opinion of Jane Boleyn: I’d always thought of her as the sister-in-law from hell, who finally got her just desserts.

[@hellsbelles6387]

it always worries me when we read of the downfall of historic people, especially in the Tudor times. There was so much propaganda and he said, she said it makes it difficult to know what to believe. personally i'm with you on this Dr Kat, in a time when women were pawns in mens games i dont think Jane would have had any choice in her actions and would have done what she was told to survive.

[@Kathleenkelly70]

I just love your videos, Dr. Kat. You are very knowledgeable - that along with your very pleasant manner make a great combination! Thank you!

[@makeittrue]

I loved that your lecture was on Jane Parker, Lady Rochford. You explained away my confusion immediately why she had both titles. I had heard her only called as "Lady Rochford" and then the more I surfed the Internet and watched other videos she was called "Jane Parker". I also really like villains and she certainly has been portrayed in my lifetime as the villainess against Anne & George and her jealousy toward their "too close relationship". I did not know until surfing here and there that she was brought back to court by Jane Seymour & I never could understand why on earth she would help out Catherine Howard. You explained each of those topics so well. By no means have I watched each of your videos, but I have enjoyed this one on my favorite "villainess" or not so much "villainess" Lady Rochford the most. I look forward to your upcoming videos.

[@hrhthedukeofnordcumberland2114]

i love your channel. always so informative. Thank you so much. Greetings from Germany.🐞🍀😊

[@janeybellecohenviolet7322]

This is the best KZbin channel ever! I love your thorough insight ♥️♥️

[@giddygrub7176]

I totally agree, I think Norfolk will have played a hand for sure. As for motive, who knows? Maybe Lady Jane witnessed how disposable KoA and AB were on not producing an heir and she acted (under instruction/threat?) to try and help her mistress and relation Katherine as Henry couldn't do the deed. These were dangerous times for everyone and women, especially, didn't have much or any control over their lives.

[@jennifereusterman]

I just don't get why she ever helped Catherine fool around. It makes no sense! Knowing what could happen to her! And then a mental break down?! She knew what was coming! This time in history is just so interesting and fascinating to me. I am enjoying your videos so much! Thank you!

[@vilwarin5635]

Maybe she was trying to save her life? After all, Anne Boleyn was executed because she didn´t had the protection of a male heir, and C Howard didn´t had powerful family members as Anne of Cleves to protect her in case of not bearing children. Even KOA, aunt of the Emperor Charles was mistreated, which hope would orphan C Howard have?

[@DelphineCingal]

I loved the fact that you felt this personal connection with Jane Boleyn. It gives a different perspective.

[@WitchofSeacroft]

It's nice to hear a balanced, if not sympathetic, assessment of Jane. So many women of this period are typecast in one way or another both by men of the time and by extension historians today we lose sight of who they were. Thanks for giving Jane another voice.

[@jennaolbermann7663]

I think Jane Boleyn is a complex figure in this story for several reasons. The Tudor Court was a competitive place and women were pawns. We may never know the whole story or her motives, or any one else’s either.

[@elizabethhumphries6835]

Is there support for the possible scheme to have Thomas Culpeper father a Tudor prince? That would make for a fascinating historial novel.

[@Patrick3183]

Do u think they would’ve been at all able to pull that off?

[@ReadingthePast]

I suggest the potential because it is a way for me to make sense of Jane's involvement. If the correct correlation of circumstances occurred then, theoretically it could have worked - would those involve have felt the gamble to be worth it?

[@hannyhawkins7804]

Reading the Past It’s always made the most sense to me. Looked at another way, once Catherine discovered Henry was totally or largely impotent, what were her options? Can you imagine her dawning horror on learning this? On realising its implications for her? Would any sane woman have just remained childless and accepted her fate? Does anyone believe that Henry would have tolerated childlessness in his nubile teenaged new Queen? It’s always seemed to me that Catherine was in a parlous position either way and anyone with ambition and political instincts (whether young Catherine herself, or her ambitious family) would have sought an urgent solution.

[@EverTheTwain]

@@hannyhawkins7804 I agree. Did you dictate your comment?

[@Shan_Dalamani]

It's one of the plots of Philippa Gregory's novel _The Boleyn Inheritance_ (covers Jane Rochford's time serving Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard). In this novel Jane is assigned to do whatever it would take to at least make Henry think that any child Katherine bore was his. When it turned out that Thomas Culpepper was infatuated enough with Katherine to risk an illicit relationship with the young Queen, Jane manipulated both of them in hopes that a baby would be the result. Of course it's only a historical novel and Gregory is known to take liberties for the sake of a story, so who knows.

[@trtaylor29]

I have always thought Jane Boleyn was a very physically beautiful woman. She has been the wallpaper on my phone for decades. I'm guilty of judging her based on how she is portrayed in media and found your perspective refreshing. Thank you for that! You did her justice ❤

[@opinionsfromouterspace6740]

I just adore your interpretation and take on history. Thank you for these lovely videos.

[@foxtrotoscar67]

In playing Jane Boleyn you chose a difficult subject. It is much easier to play Anne as all you have to do is amble in! 😀 Loved the video and learned a lot. Thank you Dr. Kat 🌷

[@ReadingthePast]

😂"amble in"... love it!

[@TeaBarful]

To be honest, my opinion of Jane Boleyn was greatly influenced by the way she was portait in the Tudors show... And also by the interpretation of her apology for "many sins". And later I found out that there is no temporary account of her actually admitting her guilt. It's so very hard to decipher her nowadays - it is so very suspicious that she stayed so long at court, after going through such a dramatic event. As you pointed out she was considered a wife of a traitor, and yet she reappeared so quickly as a lady of queen Jane. The question is wheather it was her choice to come back - was she manipulated or rather she was the manipulator. I guess it is one of the questions that shall never be truly answered. Great video! As always! :D

[@diannelavoie5385]

Since she was now a widow, she would have had to find a means of support, assuming that her husband's assets were taken by the crown. Position with the new queen would have helped her financially and also in the respectability department.

[@indiciaobscure]

Almost every execution speech of the time mentions they are a great sinner. They also say positive things about the king, but that doesn't mean they liked him or wanted good things for him. It was believed at that time that every person deserved to die because of original sin and they were only saved through Christ's mercy. By sticking to the traditional execution speech format they affirmed their faith in God, preserved some dignity, and kept their families safe.

[@indiciaobscure]

@@diannelavoie5385 She managed to gain a suitable estate and a sizable widow's portion (Thomas Boleyn had tried to deny her half of her inheritance, but Cromwell intervened helped her.) She could have comfortably retired in the country. There is a possibility that Cromwell wanted her services in recompense as his eyes and ears in Anne of Cleve's chambers (many courtiers held similar roles so it wasn't as sleazy as it sounds). But after Cromwell was gone, she certainly could have left. But she had no children, and I would imagine life in the country would be very boring without a family. She could have remarried, but any woman marrying was taking a risk as her husband would be in charge. She probably enjoyed the social life and influence she enjoyed at court, and having as close to a 'career' as a woman of her position could have.

[@kristenthornton9266]

Well done. Very thought provoking and interesting!

[@jonathandnicholson]

Thanks for the video. An interesting take on Lady Rochford.

[@csmith63]

The main issue I would take with how you interpret this Lady Jane is in not exploring that she could well have been supportive of her husband (lovingly or not) AND also the source of testimony against him; the two are not entirely antithetical. I also find it a bit odd that you never mention the similarities of her situation in not having children and that very same quandary being the driver of the dramatic events explored. After all, the purpose of a noble marriage wasn't to establish an equal partnership to increase the family fortune; while that was desirable when it did develop and helped many couples achieve greater success than they otherwise would have, the bottom line was that marriage was for breeding the HEIRS to inherit and further increase the family's legacy and fortune. Lady Rochford was raised and lived in a world where you married who your father chose and then just got on with the thing, a relationship that mirrored how the king/father of the nation decided what he wanted and then generally got, with everyone else then left to fall in with the plans and make the best of it. Failing at providing heirs was thus a high-stress situation for all involved, even if Lady Rochford found ways to be valuable and contribute politically at court. The happiness of a marriage was almost irrelevant, and your fate as a married woman was tied to that of the husband in a serious for better or worse way! With all the pressures on Lady Rochford, George Boleyn, and the whole Boleyn family in this extraordinary situation, I think whether Jane loved or hated her husband and vice versa just isn't the issue. Lady Rochford found herself in the midst of a court where the king had leveled up even from the usual standard of overwhelming power, having removed the one check that had previously existed--that of the Catholic Church/pope, but even a king couldn't get away with having THREE living wives in the Christian culture of the times. I've always seen the fates of Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn as tied for that reason, with the death of one leading swiftly to the death of the other. Henry was mentally primed to see failure as God's judgment he still had not found a "true" wife/queen (that having become the religious argument selected for helping him resolve his "great matter" but NOT the big issue on his mind when he chose Anne Boleyn at the beginning of the affair). However, he was also in a tougher spot on how to get around marital matters to dispose of Anne and acquire a truly fresh start. He just wasn't going to be able to move on legitimately to a third wife with the second one surviving, and having a legitimate marriage produce a legitimate heir was the point of all this maneuvering, after all. Once Catherine was out of the way and people couldn't be pointing to a need to reconcile with wife 1 if 2 wasn't the real match, the one sure way out of all his old marital knots was to cut them--literally, with a grand executioner from France acquired for just that purpose. What Lady Rochford knew and understood at the time of her husband's shocking arrest and in a highly dangerous and fluid situation is impossible to track, but loving or hating her husband didn't have to figure into matters at all when she knew her and her husband's tied fates put her in mortal peril along with him from the start. I can buy that she probably wasn't pulling a she-wolf move to rid herself of an inconvenient husband and bet she was downright terrified as the crisis erupted around her; yet even if she was so desperately attached to George Boleyn that she swooned every time he entered the room, keeping one's own head on one's neck is a pretty powerful motive for embracing betrayal! I do read the increase in her fortunes as payment for services rendered in establishing some of the foundation Henry needed for a legitimate break with Anne and execution, though--making it legitimate in his own mind, in his relationship with God, and in the eyes of the people who did have a role to play in accepting the legitimacy of Henry's heirs and dynasty, too. Whatever her reasons and exact role, it seems that Lady Rochford had certainly done something that was considered worth rewarding by those with the power to arrange payment. You're right that doesn't mean it was a favor she did with that calculation in mind, the case I think you make best, but I think chasing down the question of love is a bit of a red herring that could be replaced with more research into and analysis of how needs for legitimate heirs put Lady Rochford and Anne Boleyn in the terrible fates they shared. Anne was the one we KNOW was loved, and look how well that worked out!

[@seto749]

Having played Sister Mary Ignatius, I well understand the impulse to put a finger on the scale, which must be even stronger with real people. Facts are always useful. I've generally considered Lady R to have been not up to villain standard, but to have had a bit of a nasty streak - very useful for those times. The most admirable character of the period may be the Duchess of Milan, who was in the running to be Wife #4.

[@EmoBearRights]

I'm glad she wasn't she was far too good for Henry as was Catherine Parr. I like Catherine Parr a lot and Catherine of Aragon and I admire Anne Boleyn's intelligence but in the end Elizabeth won for her - her intelligence and cunning proving her to be her mother's daughter as well being free to not have a man have demonion over her - Dr Kat is right describing her as a chess player. I feel sorry for Katherine H - a young woman who was groomed by her music teacher at 14 at then used by men her whole life. I agree the Duke of Norfolk was a bastard never liked him. I dunno about Jane - I think George may well have been homo or bi sexual - he confessed to some sort of deviancy which wasn't invest and non hetronormative attractive would certainly have been seen as that by society and possibly him and Mark Smeaten had some very nice clothes he probably couldn't afford maybe it wasn't Anne who gave them to him but George but that doesn't mean she hated him there are couples in marriages of conveniences that overlook things their husbands do and sometimes agreements are made. I think Jane was a pragmatic intruiger but I think she may have had some sympathy for Katherine H and possibly Anne of Cleeves. I think though that if Cramner a man who was raised by the Boleyns and who obviously had a lot of respect for them could sell them out to save his own skin as could the family patriarch maybe we shouldn't judge Jane too harshly.

[@sneakyboo79]

I could listen to Dr. Kat all day long. I love history but you add a whole new life to it.

[@jenniferhosmer9180]

Thank you! I enjoyed this video very much. I am so excited that I found you!!!

[@j.a.m5083]

This has probably been discussed and discarded for other information I do not know. But maybe she just hated Henry? Like he murdered her husband, her friend and sister. Maybe she was just like “screw him”. She watched Anne Boleyn be miserable and lose her youth and life to this king. Maybe she wanted to help Catherine, and Anne of Cleves because she simple felt bad for these women having been forced into marriages to a violent obese dictator figure who has been responsible for so much suffering in her country and in her home? Idk maybe that’s stupid but it’s the first thing that came to mind.

[@j4eyes1]

I definitely had been influenced by the portrayal of Jane Boleyn in fiction. Your presentation and obvious greater (much greater) knowledge of history has given me food for thought. When England returns to normal following the coronavirus epidemic, and likelihood of a second wave I will endeavour to rectify my gaps in knowledge. I loved history at school but had to make a hard choice. I came from a lower working class family, went to a secondary modern school. I was not allowed to do a GSE in history, despite being top of the year in the subject. But my long term goal was to be a nurse,. My dad wanted me to work in a shoe factory. I made sure that did not happen. I did become a nurse, I also studied for and achieved a BA , a post compulsory teaching qualification and an MA. watching your presentations, and other history material I am pondering on doing another degree, in history. The cost is the only thing that would stop me, well and poor health! I

[@heathersmith8549]

Love your videos. Just found them. I’d love to hear more about the Woodville’s. The foundation of the Woodville clan, their rise and fall. What did Elizabeth Woodville really think about her Uncle Richard, the princes in the Tower and then having to marry the usurper Henry Tudor. And did she believe in the validity of the “Imposter Edward “.

[@birgitresky2879]

I just recently discovered your you tube channel...and I love it. The way how you present history almost like you are telling a story, a secret... questioning...inviting us to dive into the past ...your great and deep knowledge about the Tudors and aristocrats, relationships, events, politics, plots, cloths...everything around the court.....is fascinating.

[@JessStone-hl8ed]

I always enjoy your videos & learn a good bit. Your personal history is also interesting. Thank you for sharing your perspectives & insights.

[@JadeAndersonactor]

Dr. Kat, your videos are A GODSEND!! Your research is clearly impeccable. I can't thank you enough for the work that you have put in to making these video essays. I especially respond to your tone and delivery and I love your accent, you're a delight to hear! You present your information in such a way that I can completely understand your point of view and yet can still find myself drawing my own conclusions and formulating my own thoughts when all is said and done. As far as Jane Boleyn goes, I have always found her such a fascinating character study but it's difficult to fully wrap your head around her story because of the slander that she has endured, especially since her unfortunate portrayal on The Tudors. I am also of the belief that she was close to and highly regarded by the Boleyn family, including her husband. Until I heard your perspective though, I wasn't really sure why she would do something so seemly stupid as acting as a go-between to assist Katherine Howard in her illicit affair with Culpeper. Now, I do think there is something to what you say about Norfolk possibly persuading her to oversee and keep the rendezvous secret by promising her rewards and protection of some sort. It's certainly the kind of thing Norfolk would do! Thank you again for your incredible channel and for all that you do. It is very much appreciated!

[@dragonclaws9367]

Jane had to have been pressed into it. What those two did after what had gone before is madness.

[@lucretciaseven4873]

I think one possible explanation for Jane Boleyn's rapid and somewhat amazing return to grace is that the entire incest and adultery case against Anne Boleyn was a frame up and a railroad job to facilitate Henry to be rid of her quickly. This may have been a way of saying thank you for helping me lose this problem. I don't think Henry ever entertained the slightest notion of dealing with Anne in any other way as a second divorce so close on the heels of the first could never be seriously considered as he would have seen it as making him look inconstant and flighty thus making him a laughingstock among his peers. Anne's death was never a question in his mind. the only question was how to get it done quickly while making him a somewhat sympathetic figure who had no choice,. This is illustrated by the outrageous level of the accusations, way over the top, talk about overkill. If you look at Henry's reaction to Anne's charges of adultery next to how he reacted to Catherine Howard's then you get get the sense of this being a ramrodding of Anne even more and it could not have been done as smoothly as it was without the evidence given by Jane Boleyn. I also think no matter how much Jane revolved in the orbit of the King's grace afterwards she had left a bad taste in his mouth for two reasons: 1) If her allegations were indeed fabricated there was always the possibility she would recant them at some later date out of a pang of conscience or use for leverage.2).Even villains usually detest those who betray for any reason no matter how useful they are. Therefore when it came time for Catherine Howard to die Henry was glad to see Jane go with her.

[@elainenewth5375]

I have just found your channel and have been binge watching .Thank you so much for your podcasts they are so interesting as I love history