[REAL ATC] KLM pilot GETS FRUSTRATED with Shannon Controller!

[@VASAviation]

*Safety First* Just as a piece of information, the minimum longitudinal separation within NAT airspace is 10 minutes for aircraft following the same route, flying at the same Flight Level and doing the same speed. In case the leading aircraft is flying at higher speed (as this can be the case. According to our tracking data NAX was only a few knots faster), the separation can be reduced to 5 minutes. These two airplanes - according to Shannon ATC - were to cross SUNOT 3 minutes apart hence violating the minimum separation. Good call, Shannon!

[@phapnui]

And good, clear explanation of the situation, VASA.

[@matthewhall5571]

You made a typo there. The actual rule is Safety Third. Any construction worker can confirm this! 😉

[@forgottenfamily]

So when I saw the title, I thought the KLM pilot was upset because the controller somehow put them into a minimum separation violation but he was upset that the controller was trying to take him out? WTF

[@mikestaublin5895]

Safety Always no need to put a number on it

[@matthewhall5571]

Mike Staublin Yeah I know. I was just giving the VAS guys a hard time to be funny. Of course it should always be at the top of the list!

[@pilotflyingjonas9912]

They’re doing their job. No arguing on the frequency and especially not about separation. The controller has his rules and regulations to follow.

[@ilovecops5499]

not true. he obviosly has nto idea what the KLM is doing. he needed to be fire and was 2 weekes laters.

[@willemlenteren1485]

@@ilovecops5499 exactly its a mess there behind the scenes worser

[@MarkPentler]

Is this true? Is there any further on this?

[@LegionarisRex]

@@ilovecops5499 Nice to see your an expert in the subject, I heard you also are a self proclaimed expert in rocket science, biology, math and have a PhD in talking shit.

[@ilovecops5499]

@@LegionarisRex Hello Mistere Error Vermin. What university has corse sin ROCKERTES SCIENCES. YOUE EDITED YOURESD COMMETN...LOL I AM SMARTER THA YOUE, H, ha, ha ,ha! Erik Vännström Highlighted reply Erik Vännström 5 hours ago (edited) @i Love Cops Nice to see your an expert in the subject, I heard you also are a self proclaimed expert in rocket science, biology, math and have a PhD in talking shit.

[@SergeantSarge]

Quick note speaking as a Shanwick controller. We recently introduced ADS-B coverage over the ocean, which is why we were able to clear the KLM with a 4 minute interval in the first place. We work initially off estimates given by the aircraft, but if they change and loss of separation is predicted - even if it’s at the far end of the ocean - the clearance must change, simple as that. In this case Shannon Control are only relaying to the KLM what they’ve been advised by Shanwick - they’re a superb unit and it’s really interesting to hear what they have to deal with sometimes!

[@SergeantSarge]

Also this is a good reason why oceanic clearance should be requested as far in advance as possible, at the very least 30 mins - so that there’s plenty of time for time restrictions and the like to be communicated and aircraft to adjust their speeds accordingly to meet their estimate

[@VASAviation]

Thanks for your comment! So does the new ADS-B coverage reduce the minimum 5 minutes to 4 in case the leading aircraft is faster than the following aircraft?

[@SergeantSarge]

VASAviation - pretty much - ADS-B separations are in miles rather than minutes, so we convert it into minutes in order to apply entry time restrictions. Subject to the speed difference and routing of the aircraft you could have fewer than 4 minutes in some cases

[@bwacuff169]

So, is "Shan" sort of the Irish equivalent of the Scots "Mac"?

[@SergeantSarge]

BW Acuff do you mean the ‘Shan’ in Shanwick? Shanwick is a portmanteau of Shannon and Prestwick - because the HF radio is done from Ballygirreen (next to Shannon) and control is done from Prestwick

[@valicourt]

Once over Germany I heard how a atc supervisor stepped in on the frequency to give an aircraft a good telling off. She basically told the aircraft that if they didn’t wanted to be separated by atc they would get a vector out of German airspace. The offending aircraft became very quiet after that. Doesn’t happen very often fortunately.

[@valicourt]

Glenn Surborg I guess any scanner with air band can pick that up. It’s not scrambled.

[@Jdinrbfidndifofkdndjoflfndjdk]

Aufnahmen aller Art - Medienproduktion. Tonstudio, Fotografie, Video. Thats lame

[@Brian_tm_88]

@Aufnahmen aller Art - Medienproduktion. Tonstudio, Fotografie, Video. is German ATC under their own rules? As far as I know it is not illegal to monitor any ATC as long as there is no unauthorised transmission on the frequencies.

[@knechtruprecht4794]

@@Brian_tm_88 no, the ATC radio is under the jurisdiction of the Telekommunikationsgesetz (TKG) which states that listening to radio-messages that are not meant for you is illegal (I know, it's a stupid law). Technically even scanners are illegal.

[@leexgx]

Germany has lots of silly privacy laws outside in the open(I thought the USA was bad with some states require 2 party agreement, but at least it doesn't cover private property) , not allowed to use Dashcams legally (not sure how tesla cars gets away with it in Germany)

[@philofthesouth6019]

‘I think I will file a report on this’ ‘I think’ sir you are just looking for a reason to be difficult.

[@ShuRugal]

"no need for you to file it, advise when ready to copy phone number" would be the best response to that attitude.

[@ikbenkubi]

welcome to the dutch social culture

[@Tiger313NL]

@@KZ-SHOP Generalising much?

[@gazzarafalemozzy4766]

@@Tiger313NL generalisations are GENERALLY correct

[@Spiritwonder420]

El Patron Amsterdam if you don’t like it get out of the country we don’t need people like you

[@gggg7574]

I am altering the terms of your clearance. Pray I don’t alter it any further.

[@MarcDufresneosorusrex]

😁👍 xaklee

[@toodle171]

You bet Darth.

[@starwarsrebel2006]

Haha!

[@phapnui]

Unless ATC puts you in a dangerous situation and you must react, any perceived inconvenience to your flight plans should be, as ATC stated, handled at a later time. The airwaves are not the place to debate.

[@kevenguimaraes]

Always obey ATC unless TCAS tells you otherwise. Always, ALWAYS obey TCAS.

[@97TP]

Love the regular uploads 🙏

[@VASAviation]

Love you love'em!

[@cetri777]

no need to tell that you're gonna file a report, just surprise the atc. LOL

[@robd2184]

I do numerous Atlantic crossings each year ( or did, up to March ) and I’ve never heard anyone get their knickers in a twist like the Dutch one here. Can’t always get what you want , need to be agile enough to pick an alternate

[@fredpuntdroad8701]

But did you work for a company where a 1 minute detour equals you getting yelled at by a manager for burning too much fuel, like happens since Air France and the toxic French corporate culture took over KLM? I hope you didn't. But he has to work there.

[@mansnotprot1544]

@@fredpuntdroad8701 he doesnt Have to. He can quit and fly somewhere else no?

[@fredpuntdroad8701]

@@mansnotprot1544 Uh, no. Pilots have to fight to get a job these days.

[@mansnotprot1544]

@@fredpuntdroad8701 in 2019?? Lmao, please.....

[@tatoween1]

I love when pilots argue with ATC over simple things like this. They’re there to help you, not just piss you off. Theres always a reason. Just follow instructions.

[@thinkdifferent6403]

i bet the pilot did this just to be on the safe side with his company, like "i reported it, not my problem"

[@tatoween1]

**〈〈think different〉〉** I agree, the report isn’t the part I’m talking about, just the arguing. Just let them know you’ll file a report and deal with it later.

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

@@tatoween1 Yeah once they make the call... they arent going to change it...even if a complaint is filed. Pilots are a crazy bunch.

[@jasonmoy8639]

00Billy isn’t that what the authority going to determine whether a violation indeed exist

[@johnroscoe2406]

ATC: A-Type personalities Pilots of all kinds: A-Type personalities

[@oldguydoesstuff120]

It sounded like a different voice from the KLM at the end of the clip. I know it would never be available, but it would be interesting to listen to the cockpit voice recording to see what was going on then. Was there a switch to a second crew? Did the captain and first officer switch roles between pilot flying and pilot monitoring? I wonder if the change happened to de-escalate the situation. (KLM flight 671 is from Amsterdam to Montreal and is scheduled to take about 7:15 today. Not sure if that is long enough to require a second crew on board.)

[@davidmichael5573]

A very simple “I got it” goes a long ways. Then discuss amongst yourself in the flight deck. Sometimes it’s easier to do that.

[@RiskyIOM]

To me it just seems as simple as the KLM pilot was initially frustrated by the instructions, had a bit of a moan, but then ultimately settled down and accepted them. No massive drama really such a crew change ffs.

[@mateusmt6194]

@@RiskyIOM It is interesting that every single fuckin video someone posts that, lol - almost like bots, they always think the deescalation is because of a crew change.

[@kbsessions7432]

@Dank Farrik why not 3? Its a long flight

[@kbsessions7432]

@Dank Farrik how much larger is the cabin crew in a very long flight like Amsterdam - Buenos Aires?

[@Forscythe80]

In pilot terms, the KLM is air-raging. This is the air-equivalent of a road-rage where you drive the other person off the road into a fireball, then track that person's family down and butcher them.

[@RainbowManification]

Didn’t know they hired Karens at KLM

[@freerkottema]

Yes, KLM stands for Karen Luchtvaart Maatschappij ;)

[@matthijsvegting3356]

@@freerkottema LoL

[@koningbolo4700]

The KLM Karens keep their customers alive... I will have a Karen pilot any day over a turkish "bought my license at AliExpress" missing a runway or a guiness slugging gargoyle manning the radio and the magic ball...

[@IBo99608]

They are dutch. A country that thinks they are Gods gift to the world while actually being Europe's most retarded country.

[@RedMasterJV]

@@IBo99608 just out of curiosity, which country are you from?

[@greygoose3936]

Last time KLM was this impatient, they went down a runway at the wrong time and crashed into a Panam passenger jet.

[@juventisa23]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@koningbolo4700]

that was like 50 years ago... But let's see about how many time a goose caused major damage...oh wait... Ask Scully that...

[@atariandre5014]

Which airline still exists of those two ? Also: the Pan Am pilots ignored ATM instructions to take exit number three....instead they were stubborn and aimed to take number 4.

[@neilkurzman4907]

@@koningbolo4700 Why don’t you think every time a plane sucks in a goose they won’t bring up Sully’s name in the future?

[@koningbolo4700]

@@atariandre5014 KLM is still around, though it has merged with Air Fucking France...

[@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock]

DRAMA OVER THE HIGH SEAS

[@wadesaxton6079]

Wonder if he was just fixated on the loaded track because he was too lazy to check the track messages and manually input a new track??

[@wizbang68]

bingo!

[@Zongo117]

Also to input the new fix in the time required/Available would be kind of difficult. These guys have to think about their work load whilst up there. Although the aircraft does fly itself it requires a lot of data input, To change an already inputted flight plan mid flight is time consuming and can cause problems later down the line. One slip up or wrong button press could cause a cascade of issues later in the flight which is an avoidable distraction when they are supposed to be monitoring the condition and performance of the aircraft. This is why the flight plan is set out/input at the start of the day and clearances given at designated times, so they know when they need to change it and have the most time available to think these things through whilst not impacting flight safety.

[@wadesaxton6079]

Phil Macken it’s not that hard. It is an inconvenience but it’s part of the job. We have to do it all the time. His response to a routine part of the job, a clearance change, was juvenile at best

[@PokeMePT]

I think it may have to do with how heavy the aircraft was and climbing to fl390 when initiating the crossing would probably mean quite a higher fuel burn in order to reach the cruise level. Captain probably has to justify the deviation from the planned optimal cruise level

[@RadioNul]

@@PokeMePT ATC told me so is a good enough excuse

[@TesGon]

It’s good that for Private A/C international flight I can set a FL to 430-450 and never worry of NAT tracks whatsoever .

[@jesussk697]

advantages of flying gulfstreams and expensives rockets like those ones hahaha

[@calirambo7896]

KLM 671, Shannon here confirming you are a Delta, India, Charlie, Kilo. Over

[@dublinairportplanes]

It's out not over. Over means your waiting for a response, out means your finished conversation

[@drnogueiras8783]

Interesting... I learned “indigo” as “I” in the phonetic alphabet. I see “India” is more common, wonder why?

[@goqsane]

@@drnogueiras8783 look up NATO spelling alphabet.

[@drnogueiras8783]

Karol C I know the NATO phonetic alphabet, I’m just curious why they teach India and indigo in different professions.

[@drnogueiras8783]

Karol C apparently police, fire fighters, and some military use indigo while other professions and military do not. Just wonder why.

[@topsander]

Hmmm... seems like we're missing quite some audio here to really understand what was going on. I mean... why were these aircraft so close to each other? Why did the KLM captain think that the Norshuttle wasn't at the altitude it was supposed to be? There seems to be a lot of information on the reasons why the KLM captain was so annoyed that cannot be heard in this video.

[@AirspotterUK]

The Norshuttle was at the the correct altitude just when the flights converged on the entry points the planned time between them of 5 minutes with the lead aircraft being faster and therefore the gap increasing didn't happen as planned, this could be any number of reasons. The trouble is with the KLM is that i thinks because the NAX said he would be there at :22 and that should be good enough and the controller should accept that. The controller didn't accept that and decided to use his info from the radar which was he would be there until :23. So the controller wanted him to either dog leg to increase the distance slightly or change tracks. The controller needs to assure separation which his system shows was going to below the minimum separation. I assume just reducing speed by a little bit for 5 minutes wasn't a good option.

[@SergeantSarge]

@@AirspotterUK You'd be quite surprised by how little difference a Mach change makes to a crossing time. A rule of thumb I learned was .01M equates to approx 6 knots at cruise level

[@john03063]

I bet KLM never filed anything. Don't think he'd want his chief pilot to hear the tape....

[@stevenshillinger775]

I'm no pilot so I don't undersrand why the KLM Captain is getting so irritated with Shannon Control. It's a seperation saftey concern. Why does it have to be an argument to climb or decend to a safe seperation altitude? I get that it deviates from their cleared flight plan but geez dude, take the stick outta yer butt and do what's safe for you and your passengers.

[@ChiDraconis]

Generally; We tend to see professional pilots utilizing what is called Flight Deck HRM◘ This is something I loathe and detest; Controllers responsibility is to *«maintain separation»* then if doing so gets antagonized response from Pilot then it will be immediately apparent at the hearing ~ commercial pilots are over-pressurized to trim fractional-costs to below the minimum of what it takes to get 120 Paying riders from Gate 40 at Gatwick to Gate 11 at Tim Buck 2 International Air Resort; They do not care if pilot loses a few gray hairs to get them there; It shows on the pilot sometimes

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

@@ChiDraconis My buddy has an ATPL and he got his commercial hours flying skydivers. Up down 15+ a day and relative freedom to fly where he wants and lots of interaction with Toronto ATC. Its wasnt ever boring. Then he started flying cargo and then passengers. He was bored stiff. Flight after flight was dark outside the windscreen.

[@ChiDraconis]

I am on retirement and cannot expect to achieve ATP / Commercial so I study IFR Commercial to pick-up what I now see is how I should have approached the interest in flying; I would take a light military trainer and reason to attempt studies for me to be doing edge of envelope ~myself I would choose regional cargo though I realize I might get like you say way too fast; Currently I would like to have ideas for advanced weather text for pilots if you have anything;

[@bravia67]

The first plane needs to listen to the gas gas gas meme on the internet

[@UTube4Junky]

I think this was the first time I understood a Shanwick controller on the first attempt.. 😮

[@Antonio_4]

Judging the flightaware data (for what it's worth) you can see how KL671 slowed down about 10 knots at that moment. They went from 470-ish knots to 461. Most probably to try and avoid the violation? Meanwhile the flying tampon was hauling ass at 515 knots. I can understand the annoyance of the KLM crew a little, but no need to be snippy. Safety first.

[@sionehefa3458]

And now I have to scroll all the way back up to see the "flying tampon". I'm gonna file a report on this :) Nice description.

[@FactsMatter]

You sir, get a like for "flying tampon". Actually caused a tear from the laughter.

[@personthatexists07]

Oceanic routes, flight information regions, and HF radio procedures are confusing, but I'm learning :D

[@qatariexpat6406]

Capt Mierenneuker at the controls I hear

[@ms-jl6dl]

That'll be captain "hairsplitter" in english

[@thijszeilman8810]

I think the KLM pilot wasn’t upset, but more confused because as a pilot it is very annoying when you made a plan before the flight and then he get the call that he needs to change altitude, so it was more confusion then madness I think

[@jangguttok7437]

a plan BEFORE the flight.. while in flight, other out of control factor make things go a different way.. weather, wind to name a few.. who in the world can forecast weather at 💯 % accuracy wud be a genius..

[@eatdriveplay]

janggut tok that’s the job of a pilot. If everything goes like automated with no deviations, u won’t need a pilot anymore.

[@jangguttok7437]

Melvin Chen hence my comment.. the KLM pilot shud not be bitchy becoz things deviated from his flight plan.. just listen to ATC, (tho ATC too has been known to make mistakes) overall they are there to help

[@GhostSheep96]

The pilot-version of a Karen

[@fredpuntdroad8701]

Not by choice, I imagine. This is caused because the pilot knows he'll have a toxic French manager screaming at him for burning too much fuel because of the detour. Everyone I hear from inside KLM says things have become super commercial and toxic since the French government took over.

[@aerodaan]

There was no need to discuss this over the radio. Shanwick control offered a couple of solutions and it is up to the pilots to chose which one suits them better. This way you are not only collaborative but also maintain mutual respect.

[@zhjiang1988]

what does "balance remains unchanged" mean?

[@Thehoeh]

Idk why i love these so much lol

[@Cream1968]

Austin Powers…..And the DUTCH! 😂😂

[@marneus]

Last time a KLM didn't follow ATC instructions, hundreds of people died.

[@Razwer]

Were you already born then?

[@johnhallford2099]

Trying to figure out what I am missing here, or was this arial hissy fit really nothing more than an instruction to climb 2,000 feet to FL390 to avoid a high flying fender bender?

[@luisfernandomurillo3631]

History shows when KLM pilots get impatient bad things happen....

[@faggymcfegit6509]

:o

[@mantyla1]

That’s a stupid thing to say

[@willemlenteren1485]

exactly think of Tenerife time as well isiots

[@willemlenteren1485]

is a dangerous airline hear in holland have it a bad reputation.

[@demi3115]

@@willemlenteren1485 Bullshit

[@murraystewartj]

KLM pilot sounds like a big baby who thinks he owns the skies. Would love to know if any complaint was filed and, if so, what the result was.

[@lukasz.szyper]

better that, than to do a vanZanten

[@murraystewartj]

@@lukasz.szyper - yeah, that was my thought too, but I kinda self-censored.

[@ooo_Kim_Chi_ooo]

@@lukasz.szyper "We're going!"

[@benmcquaid8018]

F. A. Dutch people aren’t nazis bro. You’re probably mistaking them for the Germans and event then, you can’t blame a whole country for something like that.

[@willemlenteren1485]

@F. A. yes its still arrogant mentality a 777 in hongkong was also they ignore a tower

[@teytreet7358]

Im assuming it meant to say the KLM is slightly faster than NAX?

[@Jayfive276]

Correct title: "KLM pilot gets mildly irritated with Shannon Controller. who is doing their job correctly" Ixnay on the lickbaitcay please. You don't need to trick people into watching your videos.

[@VASAviation]

Thanks!

[@oktal3700]

I don't usually like to watch videos of people getting angry on frequency, so in my case VAS almost tricked me into NOT watching it! ;) Glad I did. Good judgement from both pilot and controller.

[@MarkMcLT]

Wait, why would someone _not_ watch a VASAviation video? It can't be clickbait if we're going to click anyhow! Still, he sure sounded 'very angry' to me. Original title was completely fine.

[@vanessaruiz4705]

? where is the clickbait? You think someone talks about filing a report not being angry? It's ok if you have another interpretation but don't talk for everybody. Seriously.

[@junkman713]

Sorry folks but a mildly irritated pilot doesn't threaten to file or argue with the controller. He was at a minimum frustrated bordering on pissed. So VAS correctly titled the video.

[@Grimjar]

I don't know how I ended up here. But as I can understand is that you shouldn't argue with traffic control? Just nod and move along right?

[@DodgyD101]

I thought in the interest of safety first, the pilots would follow the ATC instructions. They're there to help keep aircraft safely apart.

[@markcardwell]

Yeah ATC well done. KLM almost had it right was it not for the report filing moaning.

[@hoerenjong100]

All eyes on the KLM aircraft. But thats not fair. This situation is caused by the Norwegian a/c, who indicated they would be overhead SUNOT @ 15:22 Shanwick sees on their own system (by groundspeed) that Norwegian wont make that time. Despite the estimate they’ve given. KLM then has to change routing or level, while they are not causing the situation. To keep it fair, Norwegian should be rerouted because they can’t adhere to their clearance. Understandably KLM objects. The long discussion doesn’t show good R/T discipline however.

[@foxtrot889]

Yikes... Argumentative much? Only watched a few of these videos so far and ATC usually seems to be at fault, but MAN was that pilot grouchy for no reason. ATC gentleman was very professional about it despite being poked and prodded. Props to him.

[@victoroos]

Instead of bashing the KLM, it is better to first understand why they had problems with it? I would like to know that.

What he was told to do means he'll use more fuel, and probably get yelled at by his boss later. And if the rumours on KLM are correct, they're being slowly taken over by agressive authoritarian French management they were not used to. Since they were not experiencing vortex and were slower than the preceeding aircraft, you put a pilot in a situation where it's "This is evidently not dangerous, and slowly improving untill we meet the rule, and if other option is I get yelled at" while the ATC is just enforcing a paper rule without any regard for context. That's how you get different opinions.

[@7667neko]

There could be a coordination issue between Shanwick Clearance and Shanwick Radio... How come KLM got cleared to a track on certain altitude with less than minimum required separation? As a pilot, I'd be confused as I already have a clearance to fly through selected NAT on altitude and speed negotiated with Shanwick Clearance. Clearance means "track with these parameters is yours". I don't know if filing a safety report is a proper measure for the issue, but letting NATS know something about that should work. I don't need heads to roll on ground, though... As an oceanic controller, it could feel weird to see a cleared aircraft losing separation on track. Busy day or something? I'd do the same - negotiate changes with aircraft, then reclear. After that I'll call to Ballygirreen for explanation or ask supervisor what was going on.

[@toppensnoppen]

NAX going to slow maybe for fuel reasons? And if not.... headwind change that will affect KLM later aswell and increase the separation.

[@l.d.t.6327]

Safety first my a.. It is clear that KLM was cleared for a certain route, and it can well be that alternative routes offered are unfavourable in terms of e.g. weather / wind, resulting in more fuel consumption... It just increases the chance of problems and they know it, but they don't care: ATC only cares about it until waypoint SUNOT and they don't care about everything that follows... I would be pi.. off as well.

[@jaysmith1408]

If i’m not mistaken, the KLM is an A330, an unusually slow aircraft for long haul. Given it’s following a 787, which is a smidge faster, wouldn’t the separation just sort itself out?

[@VASAviation]

I said the 787 was slightly faster

[@jaysmith1408]

VASAviation - exactly, given the leading aircraft was outrunning the A330, although you did say the separation was smaller in such a case, wouldn’t it eventually sort itself out anyways, regardless of ATC slowing KLM?

[@SergeantSarge]

@@jaysmith1408 The answer is no - because the separation required at SUNOT takes into account the fact the lead aircraft is faster. In broad terms, the faster they are moving apart, the less time difference you need on entry. But you still need that time on entry otherwise separation is lost as soon as the second one reports in.

[@bettigio]

I understand the frustration...but write a report? We barely write safety reports...we’re too lazy to file a bullshit report after 10hrs flight😬🙈👍

[@EinkOLED]

Airline pilots get a lot of stick from the bosses if the route is changed or delayed and there's an increase in fuel burn. Pilots try to fly the route whilst minimising costs.

[@Aquavidify]

So safety is not number one.

[@hkr667]

@@Aquavidify Safety *is* number one, but flying safe is seen as normal and the managers only look at the fuel use/time delays. If you consequently use 5% more fuel than your colleagues your boss will call you out on it. They never look at what was needed to fly safe. Until a plane crashes of course. Hindsight.

[@brianhaygood183]

Yeah, lots of people het snippy at work once in a while. Most aren't being recorded and being snippy by refusing to maintain safe distance to prevent a farkin midair collision.

[@432Point]

I can see perhaps KLM running on thin margins and maybe keeping the fuel at thin margins too. 4-5 hrs crossing at 1000’ difference maybe throws them into reserves...idk. Maybe the box is telling them it wont work. 🤔 There’s the flip side to this. KLM should be getting the guys more gas and trying to push on time. But maybe wx delays down the line caused the blockage at the door. Modern times call for modern solutions lol.

[@leszekandhisrandomstuff.9228]

In general, flying at a higher altitude reduces fuel flow so that extra 2k feet ought to save gas. Even if not, the fuel requirements for IFR flights is to get to your destination, then to your alternate, and then cruse for 45 mins.(If memory serves, I was never IFR rated.) I don't know about requirements for airline planes and crossing oceans but it is going to be at least that. You have to expect delays, weather diversions and other contingencies such as other traffic. What if the headwind is faster then forecast? What if the storms build earlier and you have to go around? If this particular change dipped into their reserves in any meaningful way then the flight was probably not legal in the first place. Nope, if we are generous that pilot just isn't having a good day and took it out on the controller.

[@DosAussieThai]

Can't KLM slow down just a little bit to make the separation wider instead of arguing with the controller?

[@SergeantSarge]

Dos AussieThai if they’re that close to the boundary then no. That ‘little bit’ is probably more than the margin they have above stall speed. Which is why the controller said a dog leg would be required.

[@Zongo117]

Could also cause a domino effect for the aircraft that might be following the KLM they may be at minimum sep too.

[@gypsykingg]

@@SergeantSarge - They are no where near stall speed. Stop talking about things you don't know anything about.

[@willemlenteren1485]

they arument always

[@beeble2003]

@@gypsykingg They need to delay by at least a minute before SUNOT. How slowly would they have to fly to do that? What is the stall speed of a large aircraft at 37000ft?

[@12Burton24]

Well discussing is not the way in aviation nor everywhere else safety first reports can be made later.

[@Chasebmf23]

Buddy was hurting for a spinning

[@rrrohan2288]

such exciting material

[@markfosseth8047]

That KLM pilot’s wife cheated too many times

[@StephenRoseDuo]

Could someone explain why the KLM didn't want to climb for separation? It's clear he does not want to change anything by why?

[@toppensnoppen]

Higher fuel flow, less speedmargin (coffin corner), different winds, tropopause with more radiation, turbulence... many many reasons.

[@jlight1965]

That Dutchman was seriously in need of a pancake. Either that or he had inadvertantly sat down on the control column and had the proverbial stick up his ....

[@erikg.2666]

Introduce the pilot to your friend Don Derop!

[@rinleez]

I thought a pilot would be happy to climb to a higher altitutde.

[@sanantonio855]

Not necessarily if the tailwind is reported to be much slower then

[@mango7862]

Have a smoke you Dutch Smokey boy

[@thomasmuc1339]

IIRC, this is not the first video with KLM complaining on freq in Ireland...why?

[@willemlenteren1485]

they complaint always

[@fredpuntdroad8701]

It's a bit of a rumour in the sense that I heard this from (ex-)employees but they claim the workplace has become rather toxic. You detour slightly, arrive 10 minutes later, and a toxic French manager is going to come scream at you why you dumb 'Ollander decided to burn too much of his precious fuel and whether you can't cut some corners in safety for the bottom line. If even half of that is true, the French government / Air France taking over KLM was a massive mistake.

[@gnsgml11]

What did they mean when they said FL390 on track Charlie and FL370 and FL380 on track Delta. What are these tracks?

[@stijnvandamme76]

parallel air lanes over which to cross the ocean

[@egm1843]

Why are KLM pilots always in a hurry? It's not like they'll get promoted for arriving 1 minute earlier

[@tidlywinks]

THE FAT CONTROLLER HAS SPOKEN!

[@gavinsingh4450]

KLM again with their pushy bullshit attitude. Tenerife m'fers, Tenerife!!!

[@jemand8462]

Couldn't the KLM just fly a little bit slower?

[@parris50]

It's possible that they were already doing that. But there are safety margins above stall speeds that must be kept. At high altitude, margin between indicated airspeed and stall speed is not all that large.

[@beeble2003]

They would need to delay their arrival at the SUNOT waypoint by at least a minute. Probably they can't safely fly slowly enough to lose that much time over a relatively short distance.

[@BeCoShooter]

How did you hear about this in the first place? Liked.

[@Lefteris74]

No way the ATC will change their mind, even if they're wrong OR you suggesting something different...

[@timaahhh]

If i understand all he had to do was increase his altitude by 2000 feet. Is that a big deal?

[@TheDaar97]

Increase of fuel burn to climb the extra 2000ft which dosen't seem much but the higher you are, more difficult it is to climb further. = More fuel burn = trouble for some airlines :)

[@parris50]

@@TheDaar97 Also if they are climbing into a stronger head wind, fuel burn will be higher.

[@Xanthopteryx]

Very professional from controller. Very unprofessional from pilot. I wonder why? Did he have a bad morning? Separation from his wife? Or something else? Very often there is something behind this kind of reaction.

[@danlevesque5437]

I was waiting for them to give up and contact slower plane for a alternative route or altitude change option

[@frostyrobot7689]

That's you telt, KLM....

[@roarmalt8765]

Was that a airplane from Norwegian?

[@VASAviation]

Affirm.

[@38911bytefree]

@@VASAviation roger

[@aljack1979]

Probably smoother up there at FL 390.

[@ghstark]

Actually I think everybody handled it well, ATC stood their ground as they had to because this was a safety requirement, and the pilot complied after only a little bit of discussion.

[@wizbang68]

But it shouldn't have needed discussion because the ATC had already warned the pilot about separation and if it wasn't maintained they would have to take a dogleg to maintain it separation, KLM acknowledged, yet didn't slow down to increase separation so the controller did the only thing they could.

[@iamtheAtomicPenguin]

@@wizbang68 What does it mean "to take a dogleg" in this context?

[@Genthar]

@@iamtheAtomicPenguin I think it means that they'll divert them out off the track then back onto the track. Essentially putting a kink in their route. That will make them cover more distance (and time) vs the straight line route, giving them the separation distance they need between the planes.

[@alanwolf5632]

Yeah because discussing an obvious and logical instruction/clearance, and even trying to use threats to get you way (report) equals handling it well. If most pilots were like this we in the ATC would have maybe half the capacity and therefore many more delays would be happening. Don’t block the frequency with your opinions. If you think you are right, write an occurrence - but dont be suprised if you get the stick end

[@dldc9]

@@Genthar Thanks for the explanation. I did not know what it meant either.

[@nombrerandomxd6983]

Joder que cabezota el tío, si te mandan subir de nivel de vuelo para mantener la separación mínima pues lo haces, a menos que quieras que te visite un F-18

[@felixsierra2807]

In 1998 after KLIA opened I flew KLM to Holland/Milan. We had animals on board, we were in business class and we inquired whether our animals were OK/on board after mix ups that occurred with loading and gate changes. A very angry and flustered Captain came out saying in English we were wasting his time and barked at us that they were on board. My fellow passengers were stunned. I have never flown KLM since then and it looks as if the rudeness and lack of anger management are still part of the culture. Shannon was professional and did the right thing. KLM get your standards up.

[@VeniVidiAjax]

So salty over a thing happened 22 fucking years ago. You’d be surprised how friendly the KLM staff is. Honest friendliness, not forced by the company.

[@felixsierra2807]

@@VeniVidiAjax You are probably right. Only problem is that it is not only been my experience. However I am prepared to forget the insult from a salty KLM captain as a business class paying passenger. I do not deny you are correct to point this out.

Yeah, one person did a thing 22 years ago so they're all like that.

[@demi3115]

@@felixsierra2807 Where is the salty captain in this video?

[@reltney20]

Why does the other plane look like a used tampon?

[@DontUputThatEvilOnMe]

Not too familiar with separation in Europe. But when a controller tells you to do something to maintain separation minima you do it. You don’t argue about it. Even if it’s different from what you’ve seen in the past. SOPs change procedures get updated etc.

[@alanhill4334]

You do not conduct debates on frequency. Discussions should take place on the ground.

[@seinfeld11123]

why so mad hes going to have higher ground speed and better performance and fuel burn. cry me a river mate jeez

[@aardvark8127]

The only time when complaining to ATC is acceptable is when you have had a 17 hour flight and you are running low on fuel, the rest of the time suck it up and do what you are asked.

[@arnoldsherrill6305]

Sounds like he needs a Xanax and some Netflix, he definitely needs to chill out. there is nothing worse than air rage in a pilot all he managed to do is make himself look like an idiot.!! He let the stress of the situation get to him that is not the way you talk to a controller.

[@topsander]

"idiot", "stress"? What are you talking about. This pilot was just annoyed about a situation he hadn't expected, said that he was going to file a report about it and tried to convince the controller that the given levell changes were not necessary. If he had started screaming you could have had a point, but now... this is just a very small argument that so many people have when they're at work and get a little annoyed about something.

[@huseyinozdemir5078]

@@topsander which is more important, regulations or a pilot trying to convince the controller there will be no problem? In this case he can't report anything, but once he enters the NAT airspace without ATC providing him the minimum separations then he can report it as '' there was a loss of separation ''.

[@xEchoMike]

I don’t understand this time separation, can someone explain ?

[@beeble2003]

They're about to fly over the Atlantic Ocean, where there's no radar coverage. They fly fixed routes ("tracks") with a time separation between the planes at entry to the track.

[@asteward5586]

And how many crossing does this KLM pilot have??

[@roblaa3198]

come on klm 671 you know the score. must be having a bad day tbf but keep it off the chat

[@marcuscrassuss]

A pilot shouldnt concern about routing or clerance, because its totally under atcs discration unless pilot declares a panpan or mayday. So unprofessional.

[@giggergigger1]

good edit on the title VAS!!!! pilot was wrong and was an asshole to threaten the ATC with filing a report. if it was me id say ''go ahead buddy knock yourself out, write me up for keep ing you safe.''

[@willemlenteren1485]

and there is a other negative klm so sick of that airlinerhe have to wait like whatssupossed happent on tenerife

[@willemlenteren1485]

Yes sir its not a good thing on this moment there

[@dopepopeurban6129]

God bless Ireland

[@SuperEdge67]

KLM pilots have a history of impatience. It cost more than 500 lives in the Tenerife disaster in the 70s.

[@johnvanstelten9363]

That impatient KLM attitude killed how many people in Tenerife?

[@willemlenteren1485]

i know its a dangerous airliner

[@bahenbihen]

Hey, I really like your videos and have been watching you since forever, but I would appreciate if the titles werent as misleading as this one just as others have pointed out. "VERY ANGRY" isnt exactly the case here. Thanks and keep up the good work!

[@VASAviation]

Got it

[@vanessaruiz4705]

that's your own interpretation and many people don't agree. The pilot was obviously very angry, even threatening to file a report, but in a calm, normal voice tone. I can't understand some of you writing these comments that dont seem to match the kind of viewers of this channel.

[@bahenbihen]

@@vanessaruiz4705 I dont personally think it's just my interpretation. Looking objectively, when one sees a title written in capital letters saying "VERY ANGRY" it's expected that there would be at least raised voices on frequency. I don't think it's too big of a problem or a clickbait, but I dont want this channel to turn that way. Fortunately VAS listens to his subs;)

[@RafaelSmx]

What is ''dogleg'' ?

[@MKAnjos]

It's a vector(direction change) that you can give an aircraft to make deviate slightly and lose time so it crosses a waypoint at a later time so it will have separation.

[@classicalroach]

The pilot is wasting the controllers time with his butthurt whining.

[@MonkPetite]

Lol this is happening... and so klm 3 something is not the only one. But obviously the klm pilot is an arrogant type. A bit of an alpha male version. These A ..characters are scattered al over the airline transport branch. Some hide their mistakes (even small ones) by bullying and blaming the others. Some are even narcissistic and will convince everyone they where not to blame. Stupid as they are and yes they have to work for it. A remarkable ATC works it out al fine .. well done

[@shawnsoul4ver]

Too harsh to the pilot, I think both professionally worked out and solved the issue. I see a bit of respect on either side.. Thats just my 2$

[@willemlenteren1485]

very arrogant they have a bad reputation herer i never fly them cabin crew are also very unfriendly

[@emilianocarra525]

There s always an arrogant dutch pilot around

[@Lunibruniful]

DuDe HoW cOmE YoU pUt mE sO clOsE tO tHaT PlaNe??!? Oh sorry about that, let's try and fix this. Option A or Option B? LOLNO I JUST WANNA KNOW WHY IM SO CLOSE TO THAT PLANE

[@chenwong1036]

Just curious, Why couldn't the KLM flight fly the same track with one or two miles offset of the original track? The entire NAT would stay the same for both the flight in front and the KLM flight. If the KLM would be faster it could overtake the flight in front via the offset track.

[@VASAviation]

That's not the exact way this works