Recovering the Sacred - part 1 w/Jordan Hall - Voices with Vervaeke

Jordan and I enter into dialogos in order to try and recover as deeply as possible both the concept and the sense of the sacred that could be viable for people today.

[@guycomments]

Amazing trilogy. I've been studying your work John for 9 months straight now, and it's incredible that I find this specific set of conversations at a time when going through grief is so necessary for me given personal life events. Thank you Jordan, thank you John. Deeply helpful.

[@_ARCATEC_]

"Creative Continuity of Contact". Digging it man!

[@benjaminlife3674]

I’ve been devising a blueprint for a trans-paradigmatic civic culture, largely based on the emergent genius of this particular dialogos. Thank you.

[@brettlarson3801]

Love it brother ♥️ let me know if you ever come to Costa Rica, it’s happening here

[@leedufour]

Thanks Jordan and John.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@matfar100]

Jordan’s articulation of the triple threat that disconnects us from reality at 41:00 1) increased capacity to imagine 2) increased avoidance of beneficial discomfort 3) the continued profaning of the lived environment.

[@paulwintermute1495]

One of my favorite conversations ever!

[@timberfinn3131]

Thank you both for this conversation! I recently finished watching awakening from the meaning crisis with my father and that experience had a profound impact on me. I just want to say thanks for the dialogos that you have created and I hope to contribute to this cultural project with my artistic/musical work that I have been developing. I’m particularly fascinated by the pursuit of new symbols to help facilitate peoples connection to sacredness as you have defined it and how that relates to the cultivation of healthy relationships with each other and the environment. Looking forward to your future lecture series if that is still in the works. Thank you very much and take care. 🙏

[@joshbowe-artwork5489]

Thoroughly enjoyed this conversation John. There is so much I feel is relatable in this conversation, in terms of how i think when I paint. The aspects of the imaginal, and imaginary, and Jordan's practical necessity is discerning the difference in the two was clarity on something i suspect i have been doing since i was a child, and first picked up a pencil to draw. I can imagine any number of disparate images, but i tend to use what could be conceived as my imaginal to formatise, almost like reverse engineering the disparate. Thank you both, insightful and practical as always

[@johnvervaeke]

Great to hear from you Josh!

[@joshbowe-artwork5489]

@@johnvervaeke Hi John, good to hear from you too, especially in this video, listened to it again today. I've been having some similar conversations about natural/super-natural. Seeing you guys talk it through really helped me clarify my thinking about it, than you John, and Jordan. Hope you are well?

[@lauriethompson740]

This is just great, and it effectively answers the question it posses at the end, how do you make this 'dia-logos' process global? By exactly this! We see it unfolding in near real time on YT, and we also 'chip in' with our comments, then take what is resonant into our conversations, both local and online. I now know several people online better than some I know in real life, so this really spans the globe in a really positive way!

[@_ARCATEC_]

The river flows and the river returns, something about returning is sacred to me.

[@JiminiCrikkit]

Wow. Thank you so much for this. So much there. The word luminous comes to my mind, I hope that can be taken in the right way. So much rich, fluid opening and movement between you two. Truly inspiring.

[@lindadunn8787]

Wow. Thank you.

[@MrJDMontoya]

Wonderful exploration here. I have that the categories of imaginal vs imaginary are incredibly helpful in my work as a therapist working with folx who have experienced spiritual abuse.

[@freedommascot]

For decades I’ve felt that the child/mother relationship should be literally the most central institution of society, with all other socio/economic/political functions extending from it. I don’t mean that males would be precluded-actually, the institution would be a sacred organization of caregivers regardless of gender.

[@digglerdsrecordings9680]

There are important reasons to see this relationship as central for all humans. At minute 30 and 46 again John was talking about dialogue and the need to be aware of how the other person is thinking. Mothers are the ones who open it close this possibility in the child's mind. They also lay the foundation for it through preverbal reciprocal interactions and later by teaching them to dialog.

[@13lmcp]

Thank you, I think you explained what I see as a great list in Christianity. When Jesus became a super-natural being, God as man instead of a man fully incorporating the god, it disallowed his followers the ability to see that as an option for themselves, and as generations passed this inability caused the daily irrelevance of the faith. Maybe even the rise in magic is related, because with magic as in prayer the individual is attempting to gain control of the supernatural, and if they seem successful gain greater attention/importance/ power in their community.

[@socraticsceptic8047]

Nice conversation .. obv you both coming from different perspectives on the Sacred however were quick to dismiss Desouza "Sacred is that what cannot be questioned"... because surely what is meant by that is our axioms are sacred to us! Hence consciousness is sacred as it cannot be questioned - and since the official line is that animals aren't conscious (in the pure awareness sense) then they aren't sacred. Of course though we treat our pets as sacred in so far as we trust in their 'spirituality'... mathematics is sacred i.e the circle can't itself be questioned although it invites questioning about its further properties and relations.. Of course the dao and oneness and goodness cant be questioned once we resolve our initial understanding of these as they are the foundations for all else in your life... so in a practical sense they cant be questioned or you couldnt live a life...

[@socraticsceptic8047]

...so if i am right here John would find evolution by natural selection sacred as it is an axiom and foundation of participatory knowing, relevance realisation and his whole system hence not itself questioned?

[@andyk2181]

The secret of the universe is... oh I've got to go lol Great explanation of the imaginal, I hadn't really grasped it before and now it makes total sense.

[@bp8827]

Among other similar quotes from Gk Chesterton, “The whole object of travel is not to set foot on foreign land; it is at last to set foot on one’s own country as a foreign land.” /// also please read Fr Stephen Freeman’s short profound book “everywhere present”. He talks about a one story universe, which is what I believe you both are hinting at

[@bp8827]

To add from GK: Take away the supernatural and what remains is the unnatural. - Orthodox Christianity properly understood would not make the distinction of the supernatural. /// fr Stephen says of miracles that the whole world is miracle. See his article ‘when miracles ceased’///Gk says we are more intrigued by earth quakes than the earth. We should be more startled by the sun and not the eclipse.

[@patrickhollywood93]

🎯🎯🎯

[@_ARCATEC_]

Affordance ~ A Forward Dance .

[@ctucker1129]

Jordan: That splitting of supernatural from natural is to be reversed, but it was not an error. John: The sacred is not to be decoupled from the supernatural. Instead, as individuals, we are to identify with the supernatural and return to the nihilistic natural. You are resisting de-identifying with the natural, which is why you are opposed to ideas of the hero. That move from natural to supernatural is the move into the Messianic Male or the hero. The price for that move is death, which is why there is resistance.

[@jgarciajr82]

🙏 🙏 🙏

[@judithgervais2566]

Sebastian Moore on Christology and Bernard Lonergan on cognitional theory, consciousness, and mediated meaning.

[@_ARCATEC_]

Hi Jordan and John 👋 Found+Font=Fount ?⛲

[@digglerdsrecordings9680]

Since you are interested in how 'the system' works and how it was built, could you bring in some more points relating to childhood cognitive development? Jordan made two such connections when he spoke about the sacred connection with his daughter as well as trust being more foundational than truth. For most of axial age history, I think people led lives that were morally and spiritually inferior to the stories in their holy books. But in the present time we can only teach the stories to children because most adults are already more morally developed than the teachings of their book. What is the process that happens in the brain that at one point in time we can readily feel reverence and a sacred connection but later in life we develop a filter that reduces those kind of experiences?

[@_ARCATEC_]

🤯

[@JeremyNathanielAkers]

20:00 The sacred calls the stable(profane) into question

[@JeremyNathanielAkers]

One reason for that error of calling it unquestionable, and points out the way forward, is that it arises from a lived experience that is undeniable

[@karl6525]

Game A is teleologically finite Game B would be teleologically infinite (?)

[@_ARCATEC_]

38:33

[@_ARCATEC_]

54:33

[@_ARCATEC_]

*Kapacitance

[@judithgervais2566]

My understanding is that Christ's brokenness on the cross represents love triumph over perfection. Perfectionism is related to Buddhism, not Christianity. Jordan Peterson also seems to have embraced this link between perfectionism and belief in 'God.' The notion of a 'transcendent' reality asks for humility but not perfection.