Recovering the Signs Gospel

[@patricianoel7782]

I love your lectures. I’ve listened to 4 just this morning! Your efforts are great appreciated as I am in a “ faith crisis “ from a life long cult religion. I’m enjoying finding my Christian roots. Thanks again, sir.

[@vhawk1951kl]

What is a "faith crisis"?

[@jonathanfarrell2378]

Outstanding presentation! I wish more people had access to this quality of teaching. Very thorough, inclusive and helpful in understanding the complexity of not only Christianity but ancient religion overall. Much appreciated! Enjoy the lecture/presentation very much.

[@wwiels]

Once again, I'm an outspoken atheist but holy moly, John is such a fantastic lecturer! Kudos to you!

[@wwiels]

The lady should learn to wait untill the end though :-)

[@ncarmstron]

John Hamer is far and away my favorite lecturer-on any topic he chooses to tackle. He’s got an amazing grasp of detail on lots of subjects and a smooth and appealing delivery. The graphics are great. I try to watch all John’s lectures. However, I must quibble with one assertion in this presentation. The extraordinarily large fish catch shouldn’t be considered one of the the “seven signs”. (1) It’s not really all that impossible, (2) it’s done, not by the earthly Jesus, but by the risen Christ, and, most importantly, (3) it’s in the Epilogue-not in the Book of Signs at all, so probably by a different author. Instead, walking on water (in a storm!) should be considered the seventh sign. No need to slip it in with the Feeding of the 5000 to keep the number of signs at seven. Another good book recommendation: The Fourth Gospel: Tales of a Jewish Mystic by John S. Spong. It’s wonderful.

[@richardglady3009]

I love your lectures. The graphics and listing of sources are extremely useful. Thank you.

[@marlobardo4274]

John Hamer is the Theology/Studies in Religion Lecturer I always dreamt of having but never actually had...maybe because no dusty dark ivory tower of a traditional University can confine such a being, - a being with soul whose intellect matched by the cultivation of his heart.

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

Spot on, John and his guest speakers are truly amazing! I wish I lived closer to Toronto so I could attend in person and thank them personally.

[@thomasrhodes5013]

@@AwakeAtTheWheel ...I wish I could have been content with a brow nose. Thinking is just so much effort.

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

@@thomasrhodes5013 Lol! Not sure I’m understanding you. Did you mean brown nose?

[@normative]

There are plenty of lecturers like John with university chairs... hunt down some KZbins of Yale's Dale Martin or UNC's Bart Ehrman. (And I don't know where you went to school, but I don't recall my college classrooms being particularly dark or dusty.)

[@thomasrhodes5013]

@@AwakeAtTheWheel Yes, that had been my intention. I am asleep at the wheel?

[@36cmbr]

Now, this is truly a fascinating lecture. Indeed the series is entirely informative. Props.

[@VSP4591]

Very good and precise presentation. Congratulations

[@dantallman5345]

Thanks for a very clear, informative and enjoyable lecture. The slide images were really well chosen.

Oh my god, that is a wonderful lecture... it took me three nights (I am seeing your contant and making notes along the way) after my work... but good, such a wonderful contenct.

[@diverguy3556]

At 19:46 you said "cleansing leopards" 😁 Fascinating lecture as well!

[@garymensurati1631]

Thank you John. Excellent 👍

[@Rannsack]

I like these videos. Can you do the Koran next?

[@cliftonfuson2891]

I like this guy ,it's difficult I suppose to make this stuff interesting ,but at least he doesn't put in his own opinions ,just history .

[@liabeachy]

Just found this and its great 👍 clears up a lot of cognitive dissonance

[@SamD-th5tg]

Interesting talk. Who is the presenter?

[@Matira269]

Click the down arrow under the player on the right side and read the description. The speaker is John Hamer of Toronto Center Place, a lot of details given.

[@SamD-th5tg]

@@Matira269 thanks

[@Arcticstar69]

My mind hurts over the situation we experience.

[@glenn-younger]

Hey, can someone give me an indication of where I can find more solid info on this Q document that he speaks about? Thank you in advance of a response.

[@VSP4591]

There are on the internet a lot of materials. As well there are books (Barnes&Noble).

[@glenn-younger]

@@VSP4591 Hey, thanks for popping in. I appreciate it. Is there a good title you can recommend that I can look for on Amazon? I'm in Italy so the Barnes&Noble experience isn't available.

[@VSP4591]

@@glenn-younger Could be: The Lost Gospel Q: The Original Sayings of Jesus by (author): Marcus J. Borg

[@glenn-younger]

@@VSP4591 Thank you! I’m headed over to Amazon right now.

[@HistoryandReviews]

Q is fake

[@buck4490]

Someone called him Pastor? Is this true? He has such a balanced view.

[@stevenv6463]

Yeah a lot of modern liberal Christian groups will follow history and disect texts this way. I think his congregation is a liberal Mormon group.

[@VSP4591]

Yes, he is a pastor. Hard to belive.

[@JoshSteed]

You never explained anything about the Signs Gospel .. like who thinks it existed, or why, or how it can be reconstructed. Or did I fall asleep in that bit ?

[@gregorybezanson]

Muhammad is given credit for the Koron but his followers compiled his teaching. The New Testament books were first written on individual scrolls. The canon of scripture was based on the scrolls used and accepted by the Churches because they recognized the books which represented the original message of Christ. And they were very careful about this. The Christians acknowledged that the fathers of the Church wrote fine letters and commentary on the messages of Christ but Never called them scripture.

[@robertruggiero9999]

Muhammad of the standard Islamic narrative was a fictional character. There is absolutely no historical evidence that this Muhammad existed.

[@vhawk1951kl]

What is/was "he messages of Christ? Have you yourself seen and read "the New Testament books that were first written on individual scrolls and seen the " scrolls" which were made of what?

[@thomasrhodes5013]

The Miracle at Cana is interesting in-so-much as it raises a question as to the class status of Jesus and Mary. A guest would NEVER assume to take this action. At the very least Mary and Jesus were extremely close relations of the groom. As the groom, or his family, owned property - then Mary and Jesus were NOT paupers. The simple fact coming out of the testimony is that the servant reported to Mary that the provisions were running low. Who would take it upon herself to augment the wedding arrangements? I am sure the bride would have serious considerations in that case.

[@Ken_Scaletta]

Jesus' first miracle was giving more alcohol to people that were already trashed at a party. The miracles went downhill after that..

[@omarmirza9957]

That's pretty funny.

[@Ken_Scaletta]

@Me is eye Mettler Serious question. Have you ever been told you have schizophrenia or any sort of schizoid disorder?

[@HistoryandReviews]

Ripoff of Dionysus. Also Mark records the first miracle. Not a wedding

[@Ken_Scaletta]

@@HistoryandReviews The wedding is the first miracle in John and by tradition is Jesus' first miracle.

[@HistoryandReviews]

@@Ken_Scaletta John is the last gospel written not the first. Mark, Matthew, and Luke record the first miracle. NOT John

[@Ken_Scaletta]

What is meant by saying the Pericope Adulterae is "not invalid." What is meant by "valid" in the first place? The pericope was not originally part of the Gospel of John and is not history. It's later interpolation into the text. By the way, that's not literary criticism, it's textual criticism. Who is this presenter? Sometimes the pericope is even found in Luke. it's not "valid" as part of the Gospel of John, nor is it "valid" as history, so in what sense IS it valid? It's a nice story?

[@metsiebestie]

It depends how you interpret the evidence. Early manuscripts have a section left blank, indicating where the story ought to go. I happen to think it became too risque to include it at some point, but that it is part of the original gospel.

[@Ken_Scaletta]

@@metsiebestie Other manuscripts do not have a "blank" for it. That's not true.

[@metsiebestie]

Pastor outright says it at 40:35

[@HistoryandReviews]

None of the New Testament is historical lol

[@vhawk1951kl]

Valid etymology:ate 16th century: from French valide or Latin validus ‘strong’, from valere ‘be strong’, iyself from PIE root *wal- "to be strong") not all tongues or people can do the V sound invalid” .. See also valiant. Valid is one of those words that people often use without having any clear idea what they seek to convey by it. As often as not it is used as a cognate of true or legitimate.. The root word(wal or val) appears in the words "in*val*_id"(sick person) *val*_iant brave, strong heroic. As often as not when a person cannot think of a word which will convey want he wants to convey(get across or communicate in his*own* tongue or language he will pick a word from another language which he supposes or hopes will do the job. I'm glad you asked that; I had just *assumed*I knew what valid and or invalid meant If in doubt about the meaning a of a word , it can often help to look up its etymology. It had never occurred to me that valid is just another word for strong, but without you/your question, I would never have questioned my hidden or tacit assumption. Philosophy - love of wisdom, philology love of language. Language , what the tongue does. Here we are speaking/writing English which is a sub-language of Aryan, so words have flown all round the world from north central Asia or from wherever the mysterious Aryans came, to England western Europe and wherever English is the lingua franca, but it is not fashionable(modern) to speak of Indo-Aryan languages so it is safer to use PIE(proto-Indo-European(PIE)

[@nosuchthing8]

I'm hoping hes joking, there's no actual test for the audience right?

[@revcrussell]

There is no Q document, Luke is just re-written Matthew.

[@HistoryandReviews]

Or maybe Luke came first and Matthew rewrote and expanded

[@revcrussell]

@@HistoryandReviews Maybe, but unlikely. The author of Luke also wrote Acts, which means Matthew would have rewrote Acts. Plus Luke fixed a bunch of errors in Matthew, it would be unlikely Matthew would have introduced errors on purpose.

[@michaelsintef7337]

Certainly a more Occam's razor approach. What I learned in university was that the prevailing scholarly belief was that Luke and Matthew writings occured too close to each other that Luke would not have had the opportunity to see Matthews text. Therefore a common Q source made sense. Maybe scholarship has progressed.

[@420JRMan]

Monica, I heard your name, I placed you as Nancy k.; you'll be forgotten, like the breeze.

[@ArnaGSmith]

Nobody asks what Jesus was writing! Through prior knowledge of maybe what he knows is going around the community, I read some place else that he starts to write the sins known to hime of the people standing around him. Like if somebody was a thiev, h would write that. THe person put down his stone and walked away This continued until ther was nobody left to accuse the woman. THen there's the terrible joked in which when right after he says "you who are without sin" Mary drop a huge rock on the woman to which Jesus replies, "Mother pease I would rather do it myself!

[@davidfrisken1617]

No one seems to have any knowledge of what a Jesus message was. The disciples in Mark are confused and Jesus hints at gnostic like secrets. In the gospels there is very little actually said by Jesus about his message apart from strictly following the Jewish law, and what is said is very cryptic(most is irrelevant or parables). It is not until the mid second century that Marcion "discovers" the first know letter of Paul, Galatians, and Justin Martyr mentions the Memoirs of the Apostles being read for fun if there was time. It all takes off from there and orthodoxy doesnt start to establish until the end of the third century.

[@HistoryandReviews]

He didnt write anything grow up

[@TheZinmo]

It seems to me that the motive for suggesting a signs gospel is to bolster John. Let there be an older, more direct gospel at its source, that makes ist more true. But John's Gospel is the most theological motivated gospel, and is written as a clear response and refutations of the canonical gospels. It does not care about history. Why has there to be an older source with the improbable timeline? (As bad as the synoptic one is, Johns is way worse, almost impossible)

[@HistoryandReviews]

There actually is a lost work that describes a miracle by the river. It reads exactly like a “sign” from GoJ

[@mediocrates3416]

The oral gospel of Judas (Judas and Thomas are the same person) is Q. Judas had a meditative experience that lasted a week ("secret sayings") and was shanghaied to India where he started the Mar Thoma Church. "Shall not taste death" is a promise of victory to a military mind so, it inspired rebellion and gave Saul a job. While stranded together on an island, Paul told Josephus about the gospel of Judas and inspired Josephus to rebellion. Having lost, Josephus went to work for Vespasian and pacified the people with Barabbian christianity. There was no historical Christ, there was a historical Jesus called Barabbas; Christ is known by communion in truth, the way to life. My experience was about after conquest; science is a trojan horse.

[@yohei72]

Nothing gets the nutcases babbling like religious history.

[@garyfrancis6193]

I follow STOP signs religiously.

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

Its why Orginal kjv preservation and goto core for English bibles is so very important for all apologist and core Theology and doctrine source. Having it criss referenced with all of the most ancient text with unlimited funds and a purity truth unbiased focus on accuracy is critical. Don't mean just reading or studying in other books is bad just that kjv ends all debates. Goto source for English language. Unlike catholic or ortho that only criss reference a small byzantine line kjv is backed and highly graded by all scholars from all ages. Oddly its about 75% septuegent 25%

[@Ken_Scaletta]

The KJV is a mediocre translation based on late and corrupted source manuscripts. It is NOT "highly graded by scholars." The RSV is standard in college. The KJV is shit, don't use it. You have been grossly misinformed.

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

@@Ken_Scaletta Thats a crock of shit lol Its the most cross referenced Bible. All scholara scales agree intentionally. It accents hebrew and Aramaic rhabia ..it understand mamanoids context if a words.. Thy thou arts and all that and a bag of chips , on and on accents the closest translated actions possible into English. Its not written in your common everyday supper table English of the 1600s . Referenced under the 5400 Latin and Greek text Crossed referenced with the 870 ish coptic and syaratic Aramaic 540 some odd hebrew and coptic ancient text. With the might and finding of a king with perfection and accuracy as a goal the kjv got it right and dead sea scrolls confirmed it was. Ironically though with so many scholars wanting to make a name for themselves in the kjv they all agreed on most of William timescales prior translations because they where perfect and truly inspired by God. The teams couldn't agree on much but they all agreed on tinsdales abilty to express the write contextual words in most cases.

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

@@Ken_Scaletta if you understand what diretical mark is in arabiac many Greek scribes mistook these dots or " pauses " as just a scribal mishap. They didn't it was to be a "but " or pause in speeches. So the septugent only lines loose a lot of context. It was no such thing as they them we he she etc etc etc . To capture all this in English the rhabia is very important to getting it right . Its just hi and low dots to break up sentences. Kjv captures it. No Greeks in 300 bc understood the jawist or elohem , elohaust had no knowledge of the 5 different contextual uses of the different names of God or the words abilty to reference all his attributes or essence. The singular and plural uses threw them off. Especially the coptics like Arians line .

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

@@Ken_Scaletta for English kjv mirrors the Hebrew in being able to read out the cover story that publicly accepted or what you teach children and what rulers will accept while also telling the real account underneath the verses. The advanced study and account is preserved just as it is in Hebrew .

[@Ken_Scaletta]

@@dadsonworldwide3238 There is no "real account under the verses." The manuscript sources for the KJV - the so called "Textus Receptus" or "revealed text" was compiled from mansucript copies which we now know were late and interpolated. In the case of revelation, there was no Greek text available and it was simply back-translated by Ersamus into Greek from the Latin Vulgate. I studied the bible in college. The KJV is NOT the accepted acadamic English translation of the Bible. This "cover story/real story" stuff is completely in your imagination. It's just a translation and not the best one.

[@klightlightmusic]

August-teen (pronunciation). Augustine. Also... sigh-nod. Synod

[@HistoryandReviews]

Tomato Tomato, same thing

[@dioklezian3128]

You spell terribly carthage (Karthago) like carnage. Luckily you didn't say the word vulgate, the word for the latin bible vulgata "vool-gat-a".

[@cliftonfuson2891]

You have a very boring life apparently

[@vhawk1951kl]

Spelling Nazi alert! One of the bastards has escaped, and may seek shelter with known grammar and punctuation Nazis.