Red light therapy: promising applications, mixed evidence, & impact on aging (AMA 65 sneak peek)

[@nichtsistkostenlos6565]

I think you should offer subscriber tiers. $20 a month is a lot for a single subscription to a single podcast for most people. We live in a subscription heavy world and subscription costs add up a lot. $5 a month to at least get to watch the full AMA videos without being able to submit questions and maybe get access to the premium articles would probably get you a lot more subscribers and make you more money overall. Just throwing it out there.

[@daveandjayncox6804]

I would like to add a suggestion that the tiers be based on affinity perhaps. There are likely subscribers who listen/read as an adjunct to their learning as medical professionals. Then there are those of us who wish to join for personal health and learning, we won't likely consume all of the content but only what applies to us and is more easily understood. I don't know how you'd segment the offering(s) but just a suggestion to segment based on the audience.

[@littlevoice_11]

I do feel like the cost model further increases.Health inequalities faced by those who have financial challenges or other social economic issues. Arguably , these individuals are those that need this free information more than anyone else

[@kathyridgeway5235]

I agree

[@yangli6297]

@@littlevoice_11The amount of information that’s free is astounding. I started watching Attia’s KZbin channel 3 months ago, added zone2 and 4x4 to my weekly routine (on top of ~2x/week lifting I’ve been doing), increased protein in my macro… I’m 16 pounds lighter, six-packs become visible and feeling stronger than ever going to my mid-50’s. Mr. Attia’s free and actionable advice can be condensed down to 15 minutes. It’s up to you to implement and execute.

[@esgee3829]

he only wants aspiring c suite and celebs. 100k retainer (precovid) for his concierge medical service. what did you expect?

[@wturber]

I'm very disappointed. 13 minutes to say almost nothing about red light therapy and to then pass on bogus info on penetration depth. 1) Multiple studies show red light therapy penetrates to depths of 4-5mm, not 1-2mm. 2) A simply flashlight test in my bathroom shows that I get penetration all the way through my fingertips with just a standard flashlight. That's 10mm or more. And yes, that's red light. The other colors get blocked and you only see red (and quite clearly) through the fingernails. And if I use a 650nm 5mw laser, I can see that easily penetrating 18mm all the way through my index finger - at the knuckle. The red LED tailight I use on my bicyle (not a laser) also penetrates the 18 mm through my knuckle and shines pretty brightly through my cheek as well. That's a distance of about 12mm and it is clearly seen. You don't even need to be in a darkened room to see the light causing the outside cheek to glow red. And further, I have a darker than average complexion. Do your own search for red light penetration depth. I don't think KZbin allows links to be embedded in comments which is why I add the comments hear. To learn more about red light therapy from non quakery sources, look for MedCram videos on KZbin on the topic. Also, I'm not some crackpot promoting red light therapy devices. Sunlight provides huge amounts or red and IR light. I make it a point to spend time in the sun with my shirt off. I do this especially in the mornings where UV light is at its lowest levels. And keep in mind that IR passes easily through most thin clothing. I hope the complete AMA does a better job than this snippet suggests. This early snippet appears to be introducing a bias from the outset. Or maybe they just made a mistake. I hope it's the latter.

[@blinkyschannel]

Exactly, not to mention the red light that is absorbed being passed along to create systemic effects

[@katepeterson7544]

Thanks for the recommendation to MedCram. I’ll look at it

[@wturber]

@@blinkyschannel I guess that all depends on the mechanism of action and a myriad of possible interactions. I do think that most "remedies" tend to be overhyped based on mechanisms and seemingly logical consequences of such mechanisms. If something shows promise, next thing you know someone is touting it as the cure-all for all sorts of things. But the benefits almost always end up being far less impressive. Nonetheless, if you are going to evaluate red light therapy and spend 13 minutes on KZbin covering the fundamentals of light and how it is absorbed by the human body, you should probably get things like penetration depth correct.

[@chadh6855]

Oh it can go a whole lot deeper than 5mm. You start using (low-level "cold") lasers in the 810nm to 1070nm wavelengths and there's nothing in the body you can't reach. Take a look at the Neuradiant 1070 helmet or some of the stuff that neurologists are using in the clinical setting. It has a lot to do with wavelength and intensity. Your average panel you get off the internet says it's 300W but it really gives off about as much light as a 150W incandescent bulb and draws about 80W of power from the wall, so don't expect a whole lot more than a few mm penetration. A professional bed at a gym or salon will use something like 10,000W.

[@JennyMoyle]

It would be professional to share at the start of the session that it’s not the whole thing. I am unsubscribing from the emails etc.

[@daphnehoge9575]

Red light panel done consistently has proven excellent results for me, a skin cancer patient. Additionally, when I pulled a leg ligament this summer, in addition to stretching and strengthening exercises, I was able to within 3 weeks go hiking successfully for a week in mountains. I did bandage my Anke for support, but I cannot recommend the red light/ near infrared light more, from experience. My eye dr is concerned about eye damage, so I make sure to use good goggles plus spf. Buy good products, not cheap stuff, my opinion only…it’s a cellular light, won’t take out tumors, but skin at 70 looks amazingly better….

[@michaelgrayman7614]

What kind of lamp is good but won’t break the bank?

[@BoulderFaster]

It's pretty frustrating when, as a member, I try to hear the complete AMA and it's not yet dropped on the member site. I first heard about RLT when my dog had an ACL sprain and I discovered that trainers use RLT to repair racehorse tendons. Those are pretty pricey beasts! At the time, I did not trust the quality of Amazon's RLT device offerings so I did not purchase. For the past 7 years I have gone to a "recovery spa" (for lack of a better term) where several D1 college athletes frequent (one is up for the Heisman) for RLT, cryo and compression. Dr. A - tell your wife the collagen stimulating results on my 62 year old skin are amazing (along with the advise from one of your earliest podcast guests, a dermatologist, to use retinoid cream on face and hands. Thank you for sharing your knowledge! The show notes to your podcasts are worth the price of a subscription - thank you.

[@Mary-st3vt]

Click bait $$$

[@paulrandolph8469]

For those who don't know, ATP (adenosine triphosphate) has high energy bonds that float around in the cellular soup, and these bonds get spent where they are needed. More ATP means more energy for cells.

[@aaronburns7477]

Gotta say as a premium member I wish I was able to listen to the entire thing after getting this teaser. Should be the other way around post it to subscribers then post the teaser to everyone else.

[@HusamSimaan]

Stop whining.

[@aaronburns7477]

@ As a business owner I would prefer to hear constructive feedback from my customers. I wasn’t being a dick about it just giving feedback.

[@ChristineRose-i8q]

Peter I want to thank you for your preventative approach to health. Your book is excellent and I've used various tests and ways to improve. I am in better health now than I've been in a long time. I do have a comment concerning red light therapy. About 6 years ago, I read a book about red light and then purchased a red light from Canada with the red light and infra red light power you spoke about. I started with a small one particularly for a hip issue. I did not want to take medicine for the pain, so I used it mainly at night for 15 to 20 minutes and the pain would go away. With the results I had, I investigated more into red light and bought a larger one that covered more of my body. I do understand that there are now many devices on the market and we have to be careful what we're using. I also understand that many people are looking for EASY and don't want to do something they have to work at and may give a lot better results. But based on my experience the last 6 years using red light correctly along with those other things (like diet and exercise) I don't think was a waste of time. I think it's helped my health improvements.

[@ecospider5]

I have Mitocondrial dysfunction which has caused pain across my whole body ever since 2005. In 2009 I figured out that infrared reduced my pain levels. I started sleeping under a 20 watt infrared blanket that was 2’x3’ so it covered half my body. If I used 2 blankets I was too hot. When I had this on my legs for a week my chest and arms hurt way more than my legs. So I would switch it to my upper body. Reducing my chest and arm pain. And my legs would start to hurt more. I started rapamycin 3mg daily (a slightly dangerous dose) and my pain has reduced enough the red light blanket is not needed as much. But I still use it.

[@omnimesh4096]

What blanket did you use?

[@ecospider5]

Venture heat Is the brand I have been using. I like the fact that the energy going through the blanket is DC not AC. Like I said I sleep under this every night. So their output is not super high but that doesn’t matter if you are under it for 8 hours. It is not rated to be underneath you unless you are awake. I use the 24”x36”. I purchased 2 in 2016 one in 2018 and one in 2022. They have a 12 month warranty which I have used twice. The new one seems to be built much better. It has lasted longer than the others. I also use the 12”x18” one on a 12v battery pack for my hands during the day sometimes.

[@ElizabethM824]

I just subscribed as a member on your website, but I don't see this AMA yet. When will it be published. I was planning on buying a red light panel during the upcoming sales, so was wondering what is the timeline for publishing this AMA. I have done as much research as I can on red light therapy and was using a face mask where I saw a big improvement in the appearance of my skin. I have arthritis so I was hoping to use a red light panel for inflammation and pain relief, in conjunction with the physical therapy and exercises I do to. Thanks!

[@drsaintdc]

I would guess tomorrow. But I’m not sure.

[@cindysmallwood2695]

Alex Fergus is a good source and mentions BF sales

[@ElizabethM824]

@@cindysmallwood2695 Yes I do follow Alex. Thanks.

[@paulb2022]

My mother in law Dr Roberta Chow PhD is likely the world's leading doctor using red light therapy for MSK pain management. Published in The Lancet in 2009. This modality is the real deal but just like anything in medicine, it doesn't work for all people all the time. Its a non-invasive, non-drug treatment. There is no downside to using it for any number of indications. You should interview her Peter

[@Model_Student]

0:13 “Thanks for having me back.” “Well you’re my boss, so…. anytime.”

[@ecospider5]

I got a 45 watt infrared light and put it in a desk lamp. I have extreme head muscle tension do to mitochondrial issues. 1 hour under the red light greatly reduces my head tension and pain. Not as much as the Botox treatments I get but it is extremely helpful to break a new pain cycle

[@BlueSkies360]

I just bought the red/infrared lights and became discouraged. The info booklet says not to use on any benign tumors. As we age I presume we all have something benign inside of us. It seems that the light makes us grow, like plants.

[@littlevoice_11]

Oh I wish this episode was free to listen to in full 😢

[@wturber]

You may find some Medrcram videos on the topic worthwhile. Medcram is very much research and science oriented.

[@c3h4organic97]

Just a teaser, as usual.

[@nicolatout1595]

I've had Eczema on the palms of my hands for over 6 months, steroids and continued moisturing helped very little and nothing was healing it or taking out the red inflammation, so last Wednesday I decided to try my LED light, blue light and infra red light and next day it started to heal.. my hands are almost naxk to normal..whether that's just coincidence or not I don't know but it's the only thing I've done different..I totally believe it's the LED light

[@ellenatkins3409]

The product I am planning to buy is red AND Blue light and infra red . Is that the same as what you are addressing. And yes when will episode drop? Thank you.

[@95mmRenegade]

Biomax?

[@ayy2193]

I dont think the whole red light only penetrating a few mm idea is accurate , if you shine red light directly on your fingers you can see it go right through to the other side

[@ayy2193]

People are basing that off studies using mathematical models which clearly are not effective , when you can see the light for yourself going through fingers even if the light source isn't pressed against them Studies on cadavers even show it going a few centimeters in shined on the skull

[@ayy2193]

If you shine it on your palm where its thicker you see some come through still if the source is good enough But for thicker places it won't so optimally might be using it on one side of the body then the other side after

[@wturber]

Correct. I can easily see 18mm of red light penetration on my index finger. So presumably near infrared penetrates even deeper. Furthermore, the studies I've shown typically talk about depths on the order of 4-5mm for red light. That seems short to me given my direct observations. So maybe they really mean penetration at some particular level of attenuation. But if that's the case and especially if that level is below the level easily perceived by the human eye, they really should say so. Failing to do so seem counter-scientific to me.

[@ayy2193]

Yeah I looked it up and they are based on mathematical models, not accurate, in other studies tested on cadaver heads they show it penetrating centimeters And also only 1-4 minutes is needed for the effect at least at 40mw/cm2 intensity and maybe less, the ATP boost is a delayed effect (so longer isnt better just need the activation) I'm gonna try it one side of body then turning around , couple minutes each side a morning

[@lucindanewcomb8769]

Oh, wow. After flying to Missouri to be evaluated in person by Dr. Shealy, I used one of his inventions a Gamma P.E.M.F (Pulsed Electromagnetic Field) every day up to 12 hours a day often sleeping with it around my neck for 4 1/2 years.

[@cindysmallwood2695]

that's cool but not red light.

[@lucindanewcomb8769]

@@cindysmallwood2695Obviously. Did you not hear him mention Gamma waves?

[@whatthefunction9140]

PA is looking young

[@mbmurphy777]

It doesn’t make any sense to me why columnated red light would penetrate more deeply than non-collimated light for the same wavelength. depth of penetration should be dependent only on wavelength if I remember correctly

[@mauriciolguin]

It is only dependent on the wavelength. Maybe what he refers is that low energy wavelengths can be added into a single focal point, producing a higher energy like in multi photon microscopy.

[@joryiansmith]

As discussed, red light has mixed evidence and I suspect that's because the biggest impact is not using red light, but a reduction in blue light. Blue light affects humans quite broadly and uniformly. Removing blue light is, in my experience, more important than using red light. Avoiding blue light from screens throughout the entire day (changing screen color by activating night light settings 100% of the time) has reduced my headaches quite substantially. That solution is probably pretty odd for most people, but I use screens far more than 8 hours a day, and bad headaches are a certainty if I don't adjust color settings to remove blue light.

[@sheepdog03]

Interesting

[@ayy2193]

Blue light has a damaging effect on mitochondria apparently , where red light can have a protecting effect (I guess there's a limit and only short bursts needed)

[@wturber]

That's unlikely the case. Yes, blue light has an affect on sleep patterns and certain hormone release and that's why it can have negative effects especially at night. But this effect is cause by blue light getting to the eyes. Red light therapy does not reduce blue light to the eyes. It merely adds more red light. Also, for therapies that rely on deeper penetration, blue light just doesn't go nearly as deep as does red light and near infrared light.

[@mark-c802]

and the critical cytochrome c oxidase enzyme requires ceruloplasmin with its bio available copper...when was the last time you supported its production or tested for it?...🌀

[@joycelynnebills1787]

This is way over my head!

[@liam3067]

coincidently looking into infrared sauna today, mainly FIR.

[@cindysmallwood2695]

heat, not light.

[@liam3067]

@ Far infrared is on the light therapy spectrum along with MIR and NIR

[@cindysmallwood2695]

@@liam3067 But unless saunas are now coming out with red light built in, the light emitted in a far infrared sauna is not the same thing as the panels being so for light therapy. I have both.

[@ellafurnea]

Oh Peter, let your Mrs buy stuff.... There is some good data already on red light benefits. I vote Mrs Attia needs her redlight gadgets, girls power 😂💪😉

[@georgeelgin3903]

he's glossing over terms like coherent and by columnisati think he meant polarization

[@okoiful]

Interview DR JACK KRUSE

[@cljamming]

Exactly what I was thinking. Would love that.

[@okoiful]

@ he’s afraid of him.

[@arendtiana6604]

you showed nothing you are liar

[@buzzman4860]

Who sells a real redlight? There's so many Chinese lights that look sus.

[@wturber]

Well, if it looks red, then it is a red light. Do you mean near infra-red?

[@leibowitzn]

Buy lume box dr vib sells it. Omg my warts are all gone ❤❤❤