Rediscovering Aikido Basics: Forgotten Kokyu Nage (only O-sensei could do it)

[@chosenAudio]

Thanks for all your work and the ten videos you have released so far. Very thorough analysis that will be very valuable for anyone willing to open their mind to it. I'm sure I am not the only person who are now looking forward to your next video on the other versions of kokyu dosa from Budo. Cheers, Craig.

[@VenturaIT]

8:00 the lost secret is aki-age, aki-saki from Daito Ryu that is not taught in Aikido. A true master never reveals his secrets, O-Sensei was no different, he kept all his secrets. This is an important video.

[@mraffabilityGB]

Who told you that? Why would a true master not reveal his "secrets"?

[@MARIUSVL]

@@mraffabilityGB I have to agree with you on that! More corectly to say is that Master never reveals secrets just to anybody!

[@VenturaIT]

@@mraffabilityGB It's common knowledge... I meant more in the days of Takeda Sokaku Sensei... if you divulge all of your techniques then your student could kill you or train an entire army to kill you and sack your town. The old way of teaching was to just demonstrate the technique then allow your students to "steal" what they could and it was all up to them... this is why some of Takeda Sokaku Sensei's students came up with ways to draw the techniques and ask questions to be able to write them down, because he would just show, but not tell. Modern Aikido is not like this, but Modern Aikido is also known as being an ineffective martial art as well, for other reasons.

[@ray7892-d6i]

Thanks for researching, analysing, recreating and demonstrating this. it's not an easy task and I think it's valuable so that others can understand and 'see' it in a clearer way. Regards from Iwama Ryu Australia.

[@WatchFlares]

It's Daito-ryu - Aiki age, Aiki sage.

[@Fernandoariel-lr2ex]

Great video series.What is your opinion of manseikan aikido? I think Sunadomari sensei was one of the best specialists in kokyu.

[@MARIUSVL]

My knowledge of manseikan aikido is not that deep. As you may know, i mentioned Sunadomari sensei as one of the greats of aikido in one of my videos. I also enjoyed and benefited from Sunadomari senseis book “Enlightenment through aikido”. I think sensei and his family contributed a lot in serving O sensei, art of aikido overall. It seems that Sunadomari sensei really stressed kokyu a lot in his teachings, though i am not sure what was his actual skill level. His demonstrations look odd and unusual; he interpreted O senseis teachings in his own way.

[@JustMe-vz3wd]

@@MARIUSVL There is an excellent online interview "interview with aikido shihan kanshu sunadomari." he also talks about KOKYU in it.

[@MARIUSVL]

I will definitely check that interview👍

[@Eternaprimavera73]

WH you say SODEN, you refer to the techniques from Ueshiba archived in Takumakai Daito Ryu, where they received the instructions from both Takeda and Ueshiba?

[@MARIUSVL]

You are right. I am talking about Takumakai Soden.

[@mraffabilityGB]

I think many of these things can be performed on the move, robotic movement is not the natural movement advocated by O Sensei.

[@MARIUSVL]

Sure! You are right! Also please understand that there are levels of doing techniques. The way i demonstrated it is Kotai level way, from static grab, stoping at the key moments. Normally it would be faster and flowing.

[@mraffabilityGB]

@@MARIUSVL ​ I know, but some organisations seem to get lost in Kotai and their practitioners seem to be held back. I quite understand that in simple terms one is building an Aikido body and way of moving which should become infinitely adaptable to the point of not even considering what to do. I wish students would remember to breathe; this to me is a fundamental.

[@AikidoEducation]

If you want to understand what O Sensei was demonstrating in Budo you should read what the translator John Stevens said about the collection of photos. These were not action shots caught with a modern camera. They were posed. Showing stages techniques. And every photo would not have necessarily developed or been included. The two photos are not different techniques. They are photos staged and taken at different angles and the second one closer. It should also be acknowledged that O Sensei continued to develop the art in directions he was moving towards. Fetishizing the earlier and evolving pre-war techniques misses the idea of techniques. Also to keep in mind that O Sensei repeatedly said that technique is spontaneously created. A given technique in a given photo even in the prewar period was only on iteration of a category. You mention Kokyu repeatedly but this section on page 51 of the Stevens translation discusses Training in Aiki. Not training in throws as in the previous section or in Kokyu. They are related but not the same things. I believe you have missed the point of what is being shown here. This not a technique at all. It is a demonstration of Aiki connection. But if it is a technique it is Ikyo. You have not tested it well. Based on your statements and your video of attempting what you take to be a technique. It is not just a forward and down motion. Look at the foot of Uke in the first photo. The energy is going back initially like an Ikyo that works the shoulder. O Sensei did things like this on video later on that were easier to see. To understand the particular technique/relationship demonstrated in the photos you have discussed in this video you should look to direct students of O Sensei as well. That particular relationship is found in the techniques of Yamaguchi and Saotome in particular. In the second photo as well you can see that Uke is falling at an angle towards his right shoulder. Not the shoulder of the grabbing hand. It's not so much a technique as a demonstration of connection. But if it is a technique is is Ikyo. The first video of Saito shows the same thing. Ikyo but towards the shoulder in a circle. It is not simply forward as you state. When you attempted to do that you bent the elbow forward. You are missing the point entirely. There is a connection and the energy moves the shoulder in a backward arc before then setting on unbalancing lower parts of Uke's body. Of course it is easy for me to see this because I was taught it by Saotome Sensei. If you want to understand Budo you need to look more broadly. But even when looking at the photos by themselves I don't understand why you did not notice the hints of where the energy was going given how Uke was unbalanced.

[@MARIUSVL]

First of all, thank you for taking your time and writing a long commentary. I do not know where to start.. There is so much said in it, but i find that there are so many false assumptions and conclusions of yours. Lets try this. I will briefly comment on your remarks and opinions. It doesn't seem that you have watched all my videos and carefully listened to what i have to say, otherwise you should have known that i have already explained briefly how Budo manual was photographed using old photography, staging the shots etc., Mr. AikidoEducation(sorry, I don't know your name), these two shots are 100% from different techniques! The first shot is taken on the edge of the 6th tatami, counting from the shomen, and to the right side of it- the second shot is taken on 4th tatami from shomen, right about in the middle from it. Inspect on your own as much as you need. It is a technique! Did you know that in the old days aiki and kokyu were used interchangeably? Originally, kokyu nage techniques were called aiki nage!It is still the case in Daito ryu. So, the chapter named Training in Aiki simply means training in Kokyu nage techniques. It is simply an old way of naming it. All shots in budo manual are demonstrations of techniques. It is simple as that. It would not be possible to shoot some vague aiki connection training examples with primitive photography. That's something that is hard to teach even one on one, not to mention some staged start-stop old photography. It is a technique! And i clearly demonstrated its origin as it is preserved by iwama ryu lineage. I don't know why would you state otherwise. So i am looking "broadly", are you? It is not ikkyo, by any means..Ikkyo is Ikkyo, kokyu nage, kokyu pins are different things. Just because there was unbalancing, an extension towards uke shoulder, that doesn't make it into ikkyo automatically. By this logic, half of the techniques should be called ikkyo..i do not know what more to add. Surely, O sensei has been developing his art through the years, and he has introduced changes here and there in the curriculum, however, basic techniques training, kata training, have remained the same, with hardly any change. Because it is a step, a stage in training only, training in principles and techniques to reach higher levels. Natural laws of physics, human body anatomy, human psyche has not changed - and therefore, basic martial principles and techniques as well. The goal is to reach a stage where there are no techniques or unlimited techniques. That's Takemusu Aiki level. But correct progression is through hard training in basic principles and techniques. That is why O sensei published manuals like Budo, Maki no Ichi, because he saw value to this, people after many years can study the manuals and learn authentic principles and techniques. That is one stage. Higher levels, the highest levels of the practice , however, cannot be transmitted through books alone. I can understand where you are coming from, and why you are saying things that you are saying. Just because my work and conclusions are not in tune with your teachers and style - that does not mean i am automatically incorrect and my information is false. I have spent many years studying Budo manual, other sources, and i am confident in my work. Also, I am being realistic, there still can be a mistake or mistakes somewhere that i am not aware of just yet. But, up until i see somebody providing more convincing, probable interpretations of these techniques - i will stick with mine. If you feel you know it better, and have worked more on it, why would you not post your versions of techniques of what is actually portrayed in the manual, and let everybody see and judge. That would be interesting. Then we could have an interesting discussion about it. How about that? Once again, Thank you for your time commenting, respectfully, Marius V.

[@JustMe-vz3wd]

I have followed, and enjoyed this thread. First of all, these interesting discussions only can take place because people like Marius put so much effort in actually studying these old techniques and sharing it with other people on social media. I will keep it short. You mentioned that the photo's are not Kokyu techniques but an Aiki connection. That seems to make sense because the text on the page is about AIKI. That also makes it less likely that photos are misplaced and the editor did a shoddy job. Marius responds by claiming that in the old days Aiki and Kokyu were kind of interchangeable and .... kind of the same? I do find that a bit odd statement for an Aikido researcher such as Marius. The two things are indeed interconnected with each other, but not interchangeable. For the rest, I do applaud people studying Aikido and stuff, but its awkward if people claim that they know better and claim things like that the editor of BUDO did a shoddy job and kind of messed up and misplaced photos etc.

[@AikidoEducation]

In your latest response you have now accused me of being dishonest. The two photos you are investigating clearly show that Uke is unbalanced in an arc going back and two the side. I have stated this repeatedly and you have repeatedly ignored this observation. In the first photo in particular Uke is clearly unbalanced to the side and back. You can see this by the way he is on his toes. You can see this by the way his left hip is moving backwards. You can see this by his right shoulder being moved forward and by the right hand being so much lower. Ignoring all of this invalidates your experiments and claims about what the photos depict. As I have stated repeatedly, similar movement/technique is found in the world of Aikido. I told you where to look. I provided an example. People who studied with O Sensei took what they learned from him and expressed it in their own flavor. I am telling you in no uncertain terms when Saotome Sensei sees this photo he says Ikyo. But what you call a technique is not important. The fact is that the energy goes back and to the side in an arc. The elbow never bends as it does in your experiment. You admit you can't do the technique you think is being shown here. Perhaps you could consider that it is not what you thought it was. Well, clearly you can't, but your audience will. You make so many claims and state them as facts. You do not know why different angels were taken. You do not know how many cameras were present. You do not know the extent that O Sensei was involved in the layout of the Japanese language version of the book or in approving it. You do not know for a certainty that these two photos show two different techniques. Your claims that the photos are out of sequence in the book also is not what I see with my own eyes. If you don't want to have your ideas tested don't put them on the internet.

[@MARIUSVL]

AikidoEducation I have stated my position clearly in videos and the comments. You have as well. There is no point in discussing further, it seems, respectfully. Obviously, you wont change your views no matter what evidence or arguments are presented. That's fine with me though. I am not forcing anybody to believe in me by any means. Everybody chooses their path. Look, i want my ideas tested, very much so, but not with mere opinions, but with solid evidence and reasoning, and then demonstrations. I don't know 100% of anything, but you don't know either. The difference, though, is that i did my homework, did my research, did my testing, did demonstrations,did my videos and then, you are right, it is up to the audience to decide what to believe in. At least this information is published for everybody to see and decide. Once again, it was a pleasure to exchange views and ideas. Not many people come and challenge my content. I wish you enjoyable aikido practice on your chosen path.

[@AikidoEducation]

Again with the insults. You have no idea what research I have done. It's a simple challenge to your assumptions. Account of the fact that Uke is off balanced to the side and back in the photos in Budo. If you can't address this contradiction then nothing else you say will matter to anyone. @@MARIUSVL

[@MARIUSVL]

@@AikidoEducation you are way too easily got insulted. So rather than commenting, please share your research with everybody to see. I addresed this contradiction, but you do not seem to notice it, or care.

[@AikidoEducation]

You have called me dishonest. I think anyone would be insulted. You have repeatedly insisted as in your videos that your conclusions are beyond question and yet they clearly have significant problems based on holes in your reasoning, logic, and evidence. You have not specifically addressed the fact that the two photos show Uke unbalanced towards the back and side. While you insist these are Kokyu with the energy going forward. And now you claim that you have addressed this concern while you have not. It's maddening. It's a simple question. How do you explain the fact that Uke was on his toes and his balance taken to the side and back? When your video attempted to move him to the front.

[@AikidoEducation]

In your response to my comments below you ignore the observation that in both photos Uke is unbalanced both the the back and to the side. Not forward in front of Uke's body as in the video you made. In the first photo Uke is on his toes given this unbalancing. Everyone can see this in the photos whether they are two different techniques or not. The video you made is simply quite different. The first video by Saito you posted is quite similar. It's Ikyo. To the extent that it is a technique per se. If you want to recreate these then recreate them with the energy and direction of unbalancing which are clearly evident in the photos. But trying to do so in this regimented way misses the point. If O Sensei showed the same thing 50 times it would be different each time. It's Katachi not kata. The fact that two photos are on different parts of the same mat, in no way proves that they are different techniques. That is an illogical conclusion based on no evidence. It's likely that multiple photos were taken at different angles all over the mat of each technique that O Sensei was showing. Not all were included. Even your claim of the tatami involved is not evident from the photos. But it's also irrelevant. It is very reasonable to assume it is more likely, given the similarities of these two photos, that these were stages in the same thing. That would be consistent with how all the other photos in the book are presented. Stages in a technique or movement. Moreover, a given technique, whatever the technique, can easily cause the position of Uke and Nage to move one or two tatami. If you won't look seriously at counter evidence then there is no reason to accept your claims. As I mentioned, other Uchi Deshi have transmitted similar movements and they report what O Sensei told them about the techniques. For Yamaguchi and Saotome this is musubi and aiki demonstration. To the extent it's a technique it most closely resembles Ikyo. Ikyo is not always done in the way it is stereotypically understood these days. There is amble video evidence of this including first Doshu doing Ikyo in all kinds of ways and angles. Look at around the 30 marker in this video for example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5SqcoVrbcqJlbM When Stevens was doing the translation of Budo there was a committee of direct students of O Sensei including Doshu who were involved. They chose the way they organized and named things carefully. When they chose the heading Aiki and the explanation that came after it they did so deliberately. Whatever Daito Ryu called something in the past had little bearing on what O Sensei was trying to create based only in part on his study of Daito Ryu. Obviously Aiki, musubi, and kokyu are related. But I do not believe that your argument is supported here given how the rest of the book is organized. Because you assume it's kokyu you approach it as a breath throw or kokyu style technique like the version of the ones you are familiar with. Therefore you try to do the technique to the front of the body. But it is not. It's to the back and side in an arc as evidenced in the very photos you are looking at. We have eyes.

[@MARIUSVL]

It seems we are really on different page so to speak. You keep clinging to the opinion that these two shots are from the same sequence, just because the editor of the book placed them together, and the technique is from katate dori.. I have already clearly demonstrated in like 10 other videos, that organization of sequences Cannot be trusted! Instructions of the techniques - cannot be trusted! The book has been poorly organized. It was not O sensei who actually edited the book, this is so evident when you look at it from a broader perspective.. The same is true with Budo renshu and Maki no Ichi manuals. You keep persisting that i did it somehow differently and did not unbalance my uke to the back and to the side, and did not set him on his toes- this is all not true! I locked my uke exactly as in the provided shot, just because my uke did not react exactly the same way by turning his head and torso a bit more to the back preparing for his upcoming throw, like Shioda sensei, that doesn't mean i did it somehow differently. It is true, that at least some of the techniques were shot not once, but from two different positions in the dojo. But this had a clear purpose. It was not for the sake of wasting time and film, but for the sake of taking a technique from a different angle, perspective, while maintaining the chosen background behind(in most cases it was shomen). This was an artistic decision by the photography crew, obviously, because otherwise there would be no problem moving around The Founder, and taking the shots from any angle they pleased, there would be no need to waste time reposing the same technique again, the second time, for any other reason. So, my point is, these two shots of aiki nage(a.k.a Kokyu nage) were shot parallel to the shomen but in different places on the mats, therefore further proving that these has to be from different sequences. And if we cannot even agree with the obvious fact that these are shot in different locations in the dojo - any other discussion has little meaning. You are not being honest here. It discourages me from further discussions. Again, shots from the manual were not still shots taken from the movie demonstrating some Jyu waza, Oyo waza, Aiki connection training - it was staged start-stop photography, by carefully posing for selected basic standart kata techniques. So your argument about "If O sensei showed the same thing 50 times it would be different each time" doesn't make sense in the context of the manual. To summarize what I can say, it is OK if you are skeptical and do not want to be convinced. That's fine with me. It is not possible to convince everybody, nor is it my purpose. In the end, each of us chooses whom to believe in. All i did was to provide recreation of techniques honestly and to the best of my ability, based on my long research, and then offering it to the aikido community. Again, if you feel you know it better, please don't simply comment only, but do a demonstration of these techniques, debunk and correct my other techniques. I really would like to see your takes. Maybe i will have to agree, and apologize for my mistakes. Trust me, i am open-minded enough to acknowledge that i was wrong, if only I would see better, more plausible explanations based on solid evidence.