Reference Recordings: Bach's B-Minor Mass

[@sleepjar7013]

I’ve owned and loved the Gardiner since its initial release and guessed correctly here. Thank for doing what you do Dave!

[@michaelmyers7416]

I love this series. I have distinct memories of this piece. I heard it with if memory serves me correctly, Shaw and a pick up orchestral like RCA, but William Vacchiano of the New York Philharmonic played first trumpet. I heard it in our public library back when they had photographs and record collections. This performance has great personal and historic interest to me. Then, I heard Richter do it at Princeton with a few imported people like Edward Tarr as for trumpet. But they brought the rest of their people, including their amazing first horn, whose name escapes me, because I am older than you. The performance was stunning. In the reference recording those brilliant trumpets were led by Adolf Scherbaum who at that time was just it for high trumpet. Maurice Andre was just beginning to emerge. So the Princeton performance must’ve been around the early 70s. I also heard Richter perform on the organ live in Copenhagen, Denmark. His conducting was better. Then I heard a very scaled Down version with the original instrument name of the minute guy, whose name again escapes me. at Carnegie Hall in the 70s. It was fine but I was sitting in the second row. It was only an interesting experiment. Then I played it with the Princeton collegium music him in New Brunswick not on period instruments, but informed by Baroque performance practice. Westminster choir College for the chorus I believe. Everyone knew it and we only had one or two rehearsals to put it together but it was fine. Playing all the notes with commitment and the peace has a tremendous emotional impact live even for the performers. So I put this up just as a matter of history, and I have heard a lot of recorded performances, but my experience.spans the the progressive adoption of baroque performance practices anthe emergence of original instruments both geeky and good.If I have blathered to much delete with impunity.

[@jegog.]

I think of Richter as the father of HIP. He didn't use original instruments, but his approach and feeling for the music was lighter than the romantic approach of most conductors before him, and anticipated what was about to happen. I think he inspired musicians to think about Bach in a different way, and that led to more harpsichord, smaller forces and faster tempos. You can hear that lightness, humor and feeling in his continuo improvisations in his cantata recordings. If he had the singers and musicians around today who have mastered the historical instruments and performance practices, I suspect those performances would fit right in.

[@TOONACEDRELA]

Agree with Richter as the father of HIP. There was a conscious effort to look back.

[@JamesTailor7]

These two may be the references, but they're my absolute personal favorites as well! Richter and Gardiner convince me each time that I'm listening to the most beautiful music of all time. Also really like Klemperer (unlike his St. Matthew!), Brüggen and Herreweghe.

[@markmiller3713]

Richter is one of my musical heroes!

[@JamesTailor7]

By the way, I was talking about Gardiners 2015 effort, I haven't even heard his first!

[@alyzaabal33]

I appreciate that you're able to set aside your personal preference in these discussions. Your expansive knowledge, sense of humor and grounded humility are reasons I constantly come back here.

[@patrickhackett7881]

Well, I am far from the most avid collector and yet often know what the reference is. Unlike Dave, I don't know HOW they became the reference, but they're typically the ones most mentioned in internet forums. For the B minor mass, I wasn't sure if it was Richter's or Klemperer's but knew it was one of those. (However, I didn't expect that there was a reference for HIP performances.)

[@hoifcheu7533]

You are a great critic because you give reasons and evidence that exceed your preferences.

[@geertdecoster5301]

Hear, hear!

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

Excellent choices. I like having the old and new exemplars…

[@abrahampayne7767]

I got to be honest no one on this planet could perform the first kyrie of the b minor mass like klemperer. I know we should look at a recording at it's entirety when we want to judge it but god damn that first kyrie performed by klemperer is a separate mass on it's own

[@samuelstephens6163]

Klemp makes the music move mountains. It's like Bruckner and Mahler. Titanic and thrilling.

[@abrahampayne7767]

@@samuelstephens6163 totally agree

[@Michael-nt5rp]

Agreed completely.

[@mahnighorashi5684]

Dead on

[@alipitogen]

Klemperer's was the first B Minor I bought and I agree that the opening Kyrie chorus is the most astounding among all I've heard since.The choral entries seem to build up layers of tension and the moments you think it has reached apotheosis, further layers are revealed by entry after entry. I would actually also single out a movement from Karajan's recording which I view similarly, His Sanctus also maintains tension and glory like none I've heard since.The closest I think was , somewhat surprisingly due to the scaled down forces, Andrew Parrott's Sanctus with the Taverner consort.

[@jensguldalrasmussen6446]

Interestingly Karl Richter himself considered Klemperer's B-minor Mass a reference... Karl Richter in a conversation with the Danish-German music critic Hans Georg Lenz suddenly asked, what he thought about his recording of this work that had just been released. Lenz, who found himself in a bit of a pickle because of the question, squirmed in his seat and mumbled a few non-commital platitudes, Richter just gazed at Lenz, and asked with a slightly frosty tone in his voice: "What is it, you don't like about it?". Lenz took courage and refered to the sostenuto in the opening of Klemperer's performance. "Yes!" Richter enthusiastcally exclaimed, "that sostenuto-pull! How in the world does he do it?!". Richter, who was famously rather sensitive to critic from others, then admitted, that he, himself, wasn't content with his own result in respect to this. And he then went on to praise other aspects of what he felicitously heard realized in Klemperer's recording.

[@vilebrequin6923]

Interesting and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing this.

[@jensguldalrasmussen6446]

@@vilebrequin6923 Thank you for your kind words! Glad you liked the episode depicted!

[@renansilva5418]

Made me even more fan of him

[@AntPDC]

That so many guessed correctly is testament to Sir John Eliot Gardiner's huge talent - personality flaws aside. We all have them. Heck General Patton, for example, was another hard taskmaster. People like these aren't looking to be loved.

[@Michael-nt5rp]

Klemperer is the one for me. Listen to the Crucifixus, where the oboe/flute comes in slowly like tear drops, and then the chorus comes in in hushed and reverent tones, then a sense of awe with the female chorus soaring above in the background. Other conductors fail to make the oboe meaningful and fail to create an atmosphere of sadness and reverence, mostly because they don’t understand it at all. Klemperer here really stands tall above the other conductors. The complaints about his slow tempos are completely misplaced. Slow tempo is absolutely necessary in order to make the oboe sound like tear drops, and to create the sad and reverent atmosphere. The Agnus Dei is simply pure and sincere and deeply felt. The Gloria in Excelsisz and Resurrexit are full throated and weighty and awesome. Just a few examples to make the point. The overall performance is a powerful, weighty, and sensitive tribute to the glory of faith.

[@muzluv33]

I agree, The Richter '62, Klemperer and Marriner are my favorite modern instrument recordings of the Bach-B Minor. I liked Gardiner but now find the performance technically awesome but interpretively soulless. My favorite period accounts are the first Harnoncourt and the last Herreweghe.

[@waynesmith3767]

Like both reference recordings, prefer others; I have heard the B minor mass live with both large and small forces and agree that, when it comes to the B minor less is less.

[@TOONACEDRELA]

Grew up with the Richter and still love it but as Dave says "Bach is bigger than anybody"...never a truer word said. If you want to go to the other end of the scale, the "teeny, tiny" HIP version, I would suggest John Butt and the Dunedin Consort...beautifully performed and recorded...crystal clear with intimate, chamber detail such as you would hear in a small county church. In between is the excellent Veldhoven/Netherlands Bach Society.

[@neilford99]

The Gardiner was my introduction to the B minor mass during my first (and only) year at Durham Uni. I played it so many times, had it virtually memorised and the poor LPs are shredded. I am not a great fan of the rest of Gardiner's output. His remake seems almost identical to me except with some even quicker tempi. My personal fave of the moment is with Jonathan Cohen and Archangelo.

[@davidaiken1061]

No question about it. These are the reference recordings. I'm of the generation that "grew up with" the first Richter recording. It thrilled me then, and it thrills me now. I'm also of the generation that waited patiently for the "period instrument" version that would approximate, or even match, Richter's achievement. And so when Gardiner's recording came out it was something like an apocalyptic moment. The Dawn of a New Day when the Historically Informed approach would finally come into its own. That assurance was only confirmed by Gardiner's subsequent ventures into the "big" Bach sacred works and Hanel Oratorios. For me, the luster of Gardiner has faded, in light of a host of better HIP versions, while that of the Richter remains undimmed. I agree that Jochum/EMI is one of the few that approaches Richter's achievement. I'd also like to call any reader's attention to a recording that almost matches those two achievements--namely Robert Shaw''s RCA recording of the vintage as Richter's. The choral discipline and solo singing for Shaw are as impressive as Richter's, and Shaw goes further toward anticipating later HIP developments.

[@panneddead-centre6844]

In the course of any classical collector's career, there comes at least one work that we obsess over, buying every single rendition we can get our hands on, and eventually petering out because we bought them all and rarely listen to the vast majority of them, and in time we even stop paying attention the new releases. The B minor Mass was mine. In terms of how many there are, no, not quite 'hundreds of them.' A truly obsessive collector will find it hard to get much past 100. At least that's where I got (probably around 110, I haven't counted in some years), though there are some old ones that I'm aware of that I've never gotten my hands on. I agree on the Richter, and, unlike you, I would cite it as my favourite overall, though there are some close contenders. (Maazel's is underrated, as are Marriner and Shaw's 1960 RCA.) While not period instruments, Richter really was proto-HIP, scaling back the forces and allowing for faster tempi. Incidentally, he left us with four recordings of the work (one on video). One of the unfortunate findings of the period instrument group is a comment by Bach's son (CPE, I think) that Bach preferred faster tempi, which triggered a 'Hey, we need to take everything faster!' reaction, and the opening movement quickly stablised as 'nine minutes and some seconds' in nearly every recording. Some recordings from before this exceeded 20 minutes. That may be a bit extreme, but I prefer it slower. I'm not a huge fan of Gardener's, but as a reference recording, as opposed to a best, I can see it, and it was the one I predicted you would say. If I picked a favourite period instrument, it would be Herreweghe's. His (there are three now) are not the most exciting to be sure, but he succeeds in making the work sound liturgical, which has some legitimacy as an interpretive choice. Otherwise, for period instruments, Erickson and Jacobs are underrated.

[@fredcasden]

Back when we were in college, Karl Richter came to town and played four concerts at Carnegie Hall (If I remember correctly; it's a long time back to 1960 or so) of this piece, both Passions, and the Christmas Oratorio. I can still remember. Of course, I bought the recordings, at least of this piece and the St. Matthew.

[@davidhowe6905]

When my school music teacher retired (Mr Merlyn Smith, c. 1967; sorry I never really thanked you for introducing me to classical music) we gave him a record voucher; he said he'd use it to buy this work; which I'd never even heard of, and still don't know - something I now intend to correct.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Take your time with it--it's amazing and incredibly rich.

[@donaldjones5386]

Klemperer, Jochum, Richter, Gardiner, Suzuki, etc. They're all terrific. Just get to know this fabulous, mind-blowing music! @@DavesClassicalGuide

[@donaldjones5386]

That was meant as a reply to Mr. Howe!

[@davidhowe6905]

Thanks!@@donaldjones5386

[@HassoBenSoba]

I recently put on the Gloria of Gardiner's version right after listening to Robert Shaw's wonderful 1960 recording, and immediately said to myself: "It's mechanical...almost soulless" (or, as you put it "steely and cool")....certainly compared to the joyous, "humane" reading by Shaw. But I wouldn't want to be without the Gardiner, since it is such a marvelous, almost revelatory performance, for all the reasons you cite. I only hope he didn't have to slap around his artists too much to get such great results. LR

[@Claude_van]

Maybe it’s the digital sound, too. Old analog recording sound much better even there’s a hiss.

[@muzluv33]

In an interview back on the 80's Gardiner admitted that eh broke several batons in Lyon where he was the director of that city's orchestra and opera for quite a few years.

[@dennischiapello7243]

The opening eight bars of the Kyrie took my breath away when I first heard them many decades ago. Scherchen's was my imprint recording for the B Minor Mass--and for Bach generally, in a way. Because of the muddy sound and inconsistent soloists, I was always open to other performances, and today it's Gardiner's. I do somewhat pine for Scherchen's very slow tempo for the Kyrie, however.

[@curseofmillhaven1057]

Gardiner's version was how I got to grips with the B Minor Mass. I think it's an amazing performance - grand, spirited but also full of intense beauty. An emotionally draining, spare Crucifixus and an supremely poignant Agnus Dei, where for once, I really absolutely adored the use of a countertenor voice (Michael Chance).

[@Erik-e7v]

Great review I was looking up the B minor Mass and I wanted to know what you thought. I will check out both of them. How do you feel about Karajans B minor?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yech.

[@muzluv33]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Not one of K's best I agree. The chorus is clearly having a hard time, the tempi are often too slow. A shame because the soloists are excellent. Even Karajan himself disowned this recording after it came out and hoped to do a remake which never happened. Karajan did however make a recording of the Bach B Minor for EMI in the 50's which IMHO is far superior - that is worth seeking out.

[@jonbaum]

The whole "one to a part" thing is an entirely bogus concept. First of all, on the first page of the score there's a list of the forces required, and it says "soloists and choir". Also, whereas the arias are accompanied by one instrument (violin, flute or oboe) and continuo, the choruses are accompanied by the whole orchestra and it really doesn't make sense to have just 4 or 5 people singing.

[@fulltongrace7899]

Wasn’t the original purpose for clarity of line? I listen to both for the contrast.

[@jonbaum]

@@fulltongrace7899 I've sung the B Minor Mass numerous times and can say that if a choir director can't achieve clarity of line then he/she isn't very good

[@Claude_van]

As a learner it’s much easier to hear and study every single note when everything is smaller and leaner. I like that approach very much.

[@muzluv33]

@@fulltongrace7899 Richter achieves great transparency and clarity of line with his large chorus so size itself is not always a factor. But yes, I do not agree with the OVPP concept. It is Bach in miniature which Bach's monumental music is not intended to be. Even some conductors who perform OVPP (Parrott for example) enlarge the number of choir members in the large choruses.

[@PoulEriksson-bx4hd]

I think you should wear a wig when you discuss the b-minor. I think it would be a good fit for both you and the music. That said these were my initial introductions years apart, and I still enjoy them.

[@NN-df7hl]

Dave, I've always meant to ask: what are your thoughts on Harnoncourt's period-style '68 Mass in b minor and as opposed to his later '86 version? Sorry, if this has already been covered elsewhere. Thnx!

[@muzluv33]

If you want my opinion, I think his '68 recording is far better. The instruments are in tune at A'440 and sound fine, the Vienna Boys' Choir sing beautifully and the tempi and articulation are just right without being overdone. His '86 IMHO is much slower and labored and just sits still like a lead balloon. The orchestra plays at A;415 with noticeable lapses of intonation esp. the brass. The soloists are so-so but even the Arnold Schoenberg Choir which always sounds splendid cannot save this performance. If you want Harnoncourt in this work go for the '68. Trust me.

[@alipitogen]

I'm itching to ask John Eliot Gardiner if he has ever encountered a 'Zippelfagottist'.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Only in the bathroom.

[@paullewis2413]

“Huge is right in this instance”. Couldn’t agree more. Too romantic? Certainly for Norrington fans. 😂

[@michaelzimmerman7166]

Maybe this is common knowledge, but Gardiner actually made at least 2 recordings with English Baroque Soloists, Monteverdi Choir et al. However the soloists were different. The "reference" version featured Nancy Argenta, Lynne Dawson, Steven Barcoe and a whole bunch of others. The newer version (2015 if I'm not mistaken) has Hannah Morrison, David Shipley, Esther Brazil, and Alex Ashworth and other "newbies. I found this out when listening to the 2015 and thinking that this was not the Gardiner B Minor that I grew up with. For some reason in this newer version Gardiner insisted on making every note in the vocal lines of the second Kyrie (and probably elsewhere, but at that point I stopped listening) staccato. Maybe this is some new HIP idea, but it is toxic to Bach's exquisite contrapuntal lines.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for clarifying. They were also on two different labels, which is why I wasn't worried about anyone confusing the two when I listed the correct one in the video description.

[@annamcancarini6953]

Karl Richter Bach Hohe Messe is celestial, he knew how to bring out magnificence and majesty in music. The tension and relax between the mystical pianissimo of 'passus et sepultus est' and the 'et resurrexit', the same we find in the Confiteor 'et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum', is unbelievable. I do not like Gardiner, his tempi are rather odd. Anyway I think the HIP issue is obsolete, even Harnoncourt dismissed it saying that 'the goal of authenticity and historical correctess is absolutely impossible and not a real message' He is even scornful towards the ancient music movement: ' I do not want to be connected with it!' ( NYT interview Nov., 10, 1996). Let's say the truth: the antiquarian taste for original instruments interpretations, is today completely outdated.

[@lukesargent8350]

Richter’s has a little too bashful of trumpet playing, even for my taste as a trumpet player… for modern performance I prefer Munchinger’s with Maurice Andre playing the first trumpet parts. On period instruments, I really like Japan Bach collegium’s recording- one of the few I have heard where they make an effort to do the second “Osanna” differently than the first with ornamentation at the end. In a live Richter video recording up on KZbin, they just copy and pasted the same Osanna!

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

If I have to listen to the B-Minor, I want fairly brisk tempi. Otherwise, it just bores me. I like Gardiner and also Herreweghe. The fact that they are on period instruments is irrelevant to me. They keep the music moving and it keeps my interest. I feel the same about St Matthew Passion.

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

For teeny-tiny-one-person-to-a-part, you have to resort to Rifkin. No thanks.

[@jonbaum]

The B Minor Madrigal as even Gardiner calls it

[@Claude_van]

Why not. It’s good for studying.

[@DominicKelleher]

Oh Dave, The Jochum was recorded the year before (1961) the Richter recording. 😹

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not the EMI digital version, which is the one I mentioned (Bavarian Radio).

[@mlvy]

The Richter came out in '62 but was recorded in Feb and Apr '61

[@vilebrequin6923]

Jochum recorded it twice, the earlier was on Philips, the later digital recording from the 1980s was on EMI. Both featured the Bavarian RSO. Both are excellent 😊

[@MrDvdelft]

Frans Brûggen's HIP is far better and far more interesting than Gardiner and the choir doesn't fall apart in the Hosanna...