rejecting men in America: is 4B a good thing?

[@shaaba]

Hey peaches, not that anybody’s disputing or arguing or anything, I just want to clarify that I’m not against the 4B movement, but like with everything, it’s important to think critically 🤎

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

Firstly, there's always going to be a spectrum within movements like this and the most extreme voices will be the ones the algorithm rewards and uplifts. Secondly, I think it's the less extreme end that can and will be the ones to bring men along in this. For some in the 4b sphere no relationships means no friendship either, but others like myself will stay friends with men and in doing so point out their mistakes etc and help them understand. In my opinion there are ways that women who don't want to get divorced or already have children can be part of this too, such as no longer doing for the men in their lives. Eg don't do his laundry, don't cook for him, no s3x or limited to just the things she enjoys in bed. Think like vegetarianism; you can go full vegan but you can also do meatless Mondays and both push the needle forward. We don't all have to be vegan to make a difference, and we don't all have to abandon men but if some of us do it will help.

[@rhymerlegend2717]

Ummm we should 100% be against the 4B movement

[@kamisakura568]

@@aprildawnsunshine4326 Yes, I see 4B as maybe a starting position in negotiating how the 'B's can be done better. How can we make it so that women get a better deal in society? Men can be included if they meet the requirements. There can be a spectrum from hard "no" to "yes" with negotiated conditions.

[@Yurothehotot]

@@rhymerlegend2717 Elaborate.

[@rhymerlegend2717]

@@Yurothehotot this will only make people more miserable, especially if it was something someone wanted before Trump won. Also also: this will just further make the “gender war” worse. And again; not all men voted for Trump. Are you gonna stop talking to liberal men as well?

[@damascus9876]

“Is rejecting men safe?” Men when will find excuses to attack us anyway…I’ve literally been yelled at for “breathing incorrectly.” Got told I have a “seriously bad attitude.” Because some random dude thought I was sighing and it was because I had concentrate on my breathing. I HAVE ASTHMA.

[@animeotaku307]

One a-hole in high school called me a slut even though I dressed modestly and was pretty much a loner who stayed away from everyone. There’s no real logic to their hate.

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

What's the option? Having s3x with men you detest or letting them grape you? Having an unwanted pregnancy that might kill you? There's a lot of dangers but bending to men because if fear will be worse. Your health is too important. You matter too much.

[@elleme-sq6hg]

​@@animeotaku307 I was called a slt before even having my first kiss...so yeah

[@Nakia11798]

Some people.

[@silverink1824]

I personally don't think it's safe to say that you're doing 4B, but just saying I'm focusing on myself is a little bit safer And with things like this, there will always be that risk in my opinion, which is a real sad shame The only thing I'm suggesting is do it it in a way that doesn't antagonize them further because we all know the most common cause of death for women has been a man they knew It's not limited to that but obviously Also, didn't they all have this notion that they wanted women that don't engage those activities and with a movement like this the women aren't so why they mad

[@stolenrelic]

A large part of the 4B movement comes from the knowledge that "swearing off men" is the only way to ensure safety in a country where pregnant people are treated like incubators/ hosts and many men feel free to scream, "Your body, my choice!" as no contraception (apart from abstinence) is 100% effective.

[@b.c.9358]

I feel as if having tubal ligation, a hysterectomy, or any other removal of reproductive organs / sterilization surgery is 100% effective contraception. The narrative that no contraception aside from abstinence is not true, and seems to stem from America's extremely poor sex ed.

[@alexisskelly4073]

This exactly

[@IJustAnimateThatsTheJist]

Yeah it’s a tactic of self preservation. Why have enemies when you have men like ours? Until they learn to treat their fellow human beings with respect and love, there’s no reason to keep them around. They’ll take advantage of your kindness and keep crossing boundaries if we keep acting like they have infinite chances. Women aren’t obligated to “fix” anything. Their main priorities should be themselves and their livelihoods. Sacrifice should only be granted towards those who deserve it!

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

1st, you do realize that the 4B movement is playing right into the conservative's hands? _A,_ No sex outside of marriage is exactly what they want. _B,_ no promiscuity means no need for abortions in the first place. _C,_ Conservative men had no desire to fool around with such women anyway. _D,_ if this keeps up, then conservatives will outbreed the liberals. 2nd, if a woman's life is threatened by her unborn offspring in a place that outlaws abortions, then the situation is declared a miscarriage and the mother's life is prioritized anyway. Whoever claims that abortion laws are necessary to achieve that outcome is either misinformed or lying.

[@GaTraCos]

Not even that's effective, because grape happens.

[@savannah4439]

Me: “heck yeah! I’m 4B-ing the heck out of this thing!” Also me: *has been basically 4B-ing this whole time due to my baseline social reclusiveness*

[@TabbyWithMittens]

Yeah it's funny bc I'm totally on this but then I was like "Wait I literally have no men that are close to me in the first place lol"

[@animeotaku307]

Solidarity!

[@Truffle85]

Same. The only guys I'm close to are my brother and dad. They're cool, though.

[@StylaPet]

Same lol I did 4B before it was cool and didn’t even know it 😅

[@arthurlul]

men literally dont care about barren femcels joining yet another radical feminist circlejerk LMFAOOOOOOO stay seething & don't reproduce (not that youd have a chance to even)

[@Imjustkendall]

Personally I love the 4B movement as long as they say “your body MY choice” Like..ew, fine then. You’re removed from MY life if you think like that.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

1st, you do realize that the 4B movement is playing right into the conservative's hands? _A,_ No sex outside of marriage is exactly what they want. _B,_ no promiscuity means no need for abortions in the first place. _C,_ Conservative men had no desire to fool around with such women anyway. _D,_ if this keeps up, then conservatives will outbreed the liberals. 2nd, sincere question asked in good faith; does _"her body, her choice"_ apply to drugs and s**cide? Both are personal decisions many women wish to make for themselves.

[@Nakia11798]

I'm so glad to be with a liberal man.

[@QWERTY-gp8fd]

woman already removed these men before they had such though. woman are surprised when men try to use force.

[@Sienisota]

​@@QWERTY-gp8fdMost grapes happen by men that the victim knows: Husbands, boyfriends, co-workers. By limiting the first two, even if grape by strangers would triple, women would still be graped less.

[@villagewatercooler4134]

​@@Nakia11798 you sure he's not lying?

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

As a corset fan I have to mention that originally corsets and stays etc were designed to be supportive, like a combo bra and back brace, to facilitate physical labor like farming (aka planned gathering). They were invented by women to give us more freedom and make us healthier for longer. It's when the patriarchy got involved they became part of fashion and the creation of unrealistic body shapes, and even then they were bigger than we're taught today and clothes were used to make the waist look smaller. I have a custom fitted corset and it has massively reduced my back pain but I really only wear it when doing physical activity.

[@iratakeuchi3031]

Not to mention, all the stuff about corsets rearranging organs or whatever people like to mention is about the practice of tight-lacing, which was made out to be much more commonplace than it ever was as a way of making women seem frivolous and vain. They came up with exaggerations from “doctors” about the risks of tight-lacing to make women who did it seem crazy for harming themselves for vanity.

[@vaca_canibal]

Where did you get it? I have scholiosis but it's so mild I'm not treated, but that sounds like it would benefit me sooooo much (of course I will research anyway)

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

@@vaca_canibal I got mine at the Virginia Ren faire in lake Anna but I'm sure you can find someone near you who makes them and you can always make your own as well. The supplies aren't hard to come by ☺️

[@AJansenNL]

​​@@vaca_canibalCheck out Bernadette Banner. She has scoliosis and grew up in a corset. She's also a fashion historian.

[@brookeworley5140]

Came here to say something similar - my sister took some history of fashion classes as part of her theatre arts costuming major, and she has mentioned similar things to me before 💯

[@Soberdragonfly]

I am an American Cis woman, and Ally. I have been hearing more and more about this. I am currently researching it. The project 2025 is horrifying. 😢

[@Imjustkendall]

Project 2025 is terrifying. 4B until we’re human again.

[@rhymerlegend2717]

And it’s not fuckijg happening

[@sf2132]

Same, I(cis-het woman) have been celibate(by my own choice) for over 5 years. Men my age are such jerks that I decided that I'm better off financially and mentally without men!🎉

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

Trump has disavowed project 2025 multiple times already. It's just another conspiracy theory like _russian Collusion_ or the claim that he was planning to sell nuclear codes.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

Don't dispair; Trump has disavowed project 2025 several times over, so maybe your fears won't actually come to pass.

[@xscottishsoulx320]

My partner is a cis white man and I am 100% behind the 4b movement. I have the privilege of being in a safe relationship, and all women deserve the same.

[@sleepyspacegremlin]

Heck yeah! I like men who care.

[@bjoardar]

While I'm happy for you, encouraging others into celibacy because you already have yours, seems ... odd. I really can't support the 4B movement. The reason for that, is that Democratic women, will basically reject Democratic men. Who will then seek out the GOP who *DOESN'T* reject them. It's counter-productive. Not to mention that women's rights will only continue to erode, if only conservatives are having babies.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Same!

[@bjoardar]

I'm glad you have someone to love and care about (and who I hope loves and cares about you in return), so it seems odd to me that you would encourage others into celibacy. After all, women's rights risk eroding ever further if the only one's who want children these days, are conservatives.

[@frohnatur9806]

So you date a man but wish for others not to do so? 4B is destined to fail, because power in numbers doesn't work if you exclude half of humanity, many of which half also want to create a more equal world for all genders and ethnicities. It will only create resentment and drive men frustrated with the world into fatschism (hope I've butchered that enough)

[@crystalstyles411]

As a survivor of both DV and SA, I would be a lesbian if sexuality was a choice. I’m Bi, but even though I’m terrified of most men, I’m still mostly attracted to men; it really doesn’t seem fair.

[@mnorris790]

It ain't.

[@agata-1337]

im a pan girl in brazil, but after similar experiences i stopped dating man as well, fortunately i found an awesome girlfriend but i know not everyone is this lucky.

[@FS-qk5uq]

Look up political lesbianism

[@magnarcreed3801]

I’m same except woman leaning. So I got very lucky.

[@itsgabbybtch5587]

​@@FS-qk5uq Don't actually, this ideology is bad, actual Lesbians don't like it for a reason. One can build community with women without appropriating Sapphic Women.

[@bloodora]

Just touching on the point that there's maybe some room for sensitivity towards men in these conversations - I think the shift towards the 4B movement is about a lot of people feeling helpless - many of us have tried to do the educating, have tried to have the kind conversations, have tried to teach men how to be kinder and more thoughtful, but with the current political landscape in the US, it's just feeling more and more like those efforts are falling on deaf ears. Yes - there are good men out there who care to listen and make the effort to treat women kindly and fairly and equally - but we can't know at a glance what kind of man we're dealing with. If all of our efforts to do things the kind/sensitive way are failing over and over and over again, it's really no wonder that so many women are giving up on men entirely. We only have so much energy to try and be kind and gentle with our messaging. Maybe if being kind and gentle actually worked, the story here would be different, but alas...

[@Nettedtangible]

Exactly. The conversation always gets reframed to be about men- alienating them or extending them grace or pushing them further in the incel direction, and all of that is so frustrating bc it’s just not aboutttt them. It’s about trying to take them out of the equation all together. If they wanna do the work and actually be a decent person, people will see that. It’s not “all men are trash” it’s “enough men are trash that I don’t wanna give them the benefit of the doubt and I want them to prove to me they’re not trash before I trust them” which imo makes perfect sense and isn’t attacking men at all. Alllll of the onus always gets put on women. This is just shifting the onus back to men. And if that upsets them, too f-ing bad

[@e.l98]

100% agree. Like, what do you think we have been doing this whole time! It is clear that men have never and will never listen to women when we speak about how the patriarchy needs to be dismantled. That conversation needs to happen between men for them to actually care

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

But it's not just a male thing. The majority of the pro-life movement consists of women, mostly mothers who formed a deep maternal bond with their unborn children during pregnancy.

[@kesar8942]

​@@Antidragon-nl7by I don't think it's just the prolife movement that we are talking about.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@kesar8942 I'm aware, but the point was that the push back against abortion is more than just men trying to control women's bodies; vast swaths of the population feel that it's a deeply moral issue as well, and are personally defensive of the unborn. Agree with it or not, being dismissive of this viewpoint is partially why the pro-abortion issue fell flat in the last election; the Left failed to adress or acknowledge the ethical hang-ups many people have with abortion and smeared them as women-haters instead (even though many were women themselves). I'm not saying I agree with them, but you need to understand an issue before you can fix/win it.

[@alexisskelly4073]

I’m in support of the 4B Movement. If men can’t protect our rights, they don’t deserve to have access to us.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

You do realize that the 4B movement is playing right into the conservative's hands? _A,_ No "fooling around" outside of marriage is exactly what they want. _B,_ no promiscuity means no need for abortions in the first place. _C,_ Conservative men had no desire to date with such women anyway. _D,_ if this keeps up, then conservatives will outbreed the liberals.

[@a.r.h9919]

A small group of women that wants to fight conservatives by being more.... conservative..... I don't I've seen such a cognitive dissonance this strong since "Queers for Palestine" Edit: also are you forgetting that a giant bulk of women voted for him right ?

[@artemis_justiceaizawa5978]

I think for a lot of men it's less "can't" and more "won't" because they don't WANT you to have rights, when you do it it makes you equal to them and human- therefore deserving of respect.

[@anfearaerach]

Trans men don't benefit from this either, I'd hoped that in a comment section from someone who's married to a trans man would be a little more inclusive

[@notlikely4468]

So...men should "protect" you? I don't think that's how equality works

[@18puppies91]

Dang, I never realized I've been participating in this movement my whole life!

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

lmaooooooooo same

[@KennedyWoodruff]

Fr!

[@whitneylee4923]

I’m a lesbian in America, but I’m still finding ways I can participate in 4B. For example, I’m thinking about how I can stop giving men disproportionate emotional labor. I can resolve to end friendships with men who don’t support women’s rights. There’s ways everyone can join the 4B movement no matter your sexuality or relationship status.

[@jelatinosa]

Exactly!

[@thekameru6058]

I've just decided Im dont with het men, unless they have showed me why I should give them a pass. I've felt far more cherished and supported since I walked away from the lot of them and replaced them with lgbtq+ people.

[@RedBone-q2v]

😆😅🤣😂

[@villagewatercooler4134]

​@@RedBone-q2v it's okay you don't have friends anyway 😂 chuds ☕️

[@millerd420]

Very cult like behavior

[@sleepyspacegremlin]

Decentering men in my life is the natural consequence of how they have treated me & other women in my life. When the men decide to finally listen to us, we'll be there waiting. But I'm not holding my breath.

[@jelatinosa]

Exactly!

[@arthurlul]

men literally dont care about barren femcels joining yet another radical feminist circlejerk LMFAOOOOOOO stay seething & don't reproduce (not that youd have a chance to even)

[@tealkerberus748]

I'm actually not waiting. I have my life to live.

[@Javiera_Random]

Search about political lesbianism 😊

[@carlpanzram7081]

It's crazy how much the 4B movement agrees withs conservative men. They celebrate abstinence, celibacy and modesty. Woman have basically convinced themselves to do exactly what conservative men want, in an attempt to hurt conservative men 😂

[@ashleyd2145]

I'm fortunate enough to have a partner who is both a cis het white dude and an ally and supporter of all human rights. I send all of my deepest support to those partaking in 4B. we will take back our autonomy one way or another.

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

Are there maybe lighter ways you can join the movement besides supporting other women? For instance not doing for the men in your life for free (laundry, cooking etc) and not just with your partner but all the men in your life? Just a thought 😊

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@@ashleyd2145 _"...supporter of all human rights."_ The crux of the issue is that millions believe, in good faith, that "human rights" apply to the unborn as well. I'm not saying I agree with them, but you need to understand an issue before you can fix/win it.

[@itsgabbybtch5587]

​@@Antidragon-nl7by Okay, literally nobody here is talking about abortion, it's giving misogyny.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@@itsgabbybtch5587 Sorry for the misconception; "Misogyny" and "abortion" have been joined at the hip in the U.S. ever since the election went into full swing. My main point still stands though; _"all human rights"_ is a misnomer since many are mutually exclusive. I can give more examples if you'd like.

[@micol7490]

​@@Antidragon-nl7byrepeat after me: a non-sentient blubber of cells is not a person, a grown human been forced to partake in a pregnancy who doesn't want is a person who is suf fering such an ab use that's, taking it softly, akin to a human rig hts violation...

[@lizzyolsen9326]

As an Ace and aro woman, 4b is just how I exist unless I try not to. How people have talked about men my whole life has definitely scared me. After I came to terms with how I don't understand sexal and romantic attraction, I have been glad that I don't have to be with a man like that. I'm curious if the 4b movement would stand with the Ace community or try to seperate from us.

[@jelatinosa]

I for one stand for both! Though, I am in a safe relationship with a cishet male, and I do consider myself gray ace or demisexual.

[@simransimran9339]

Aroace myself. Have been 4b all my life. I think rather than standing with or not is not the question. I think in today's society we can set an example that being without partner (het or not) is not a tragedy of epic proportions. Saying no thanks, to marriage, is a viable and valuable option. It's about you can thrive even if you don't have a romantic partner. That choosing to be alone doesn't make you object of pity or shame. This means acknowledging that sometimes you get lonely but we can find community to deal with that.

[@Nakia11798]

I would hope they'd be allies! Also, as an ace biro woman, men can be scary, but most aren't.

[@markwolfe947]

Same here I never understood the need for physical love, and how people couldn't be without it. I have been in an attempt but the experience was not one I want to ever repeat, the effort was more work than pleasure and I walked away.

[@Iquey]

4b should stand with ace folks. Since ace women are usually strictly business with men, and not reliant on men for pleasure, or sexual satisfaction. I would say as someone ace myself that you can still do 4B by being mindful of any people pleasing or over-giving you have done towards men in your life.

[@erinnadia0409]

Men think it’s about punish them but really it’s about keeping safe since health care is being taken away, even if I wanted a baby I wouldn’t risk it if a miscarriage that needed surgery got denied and I died a painful death

[@rogersepeda]

There’s a lot of fear mongering going on. There are exceptions especially if it’s the life of the mother. With modern medicine it’s rare for it to happen as long as it’s handled appropriately. Me personally, I support the 4B movement. This means abortion rates are low and std rate drops too. I don’t think abstaining from sex is punishment ( unless you’re married) .

[@sindelscat9336]

Almost none of us think it's about to punish us, all we're doing is laughing at you, because guess what 58% of women voted for Trump, we don't want you guys we now know women actually want us, and because of that we're seeking out them, we'll just have babies with them, and they'll be less left-leaning people in America.

[@travisprice1325]

​@@rogersepeda You're talking out of hour rear.

[@rogersepeda]

@@travisprice1325 hour rear ?

[@moncorp1]

Whatever the reason, thanks for finally embracing a conservative lifestyle. And one more thing, YOU may think its not anti-men, but most of the other loonies embracing the 4B movement think its going to teach men a lesson. Regardless, good luck. I don't think most of the 4Bers had to worry anyway.

[@soundlessbee]

I'm sort of living the 4B lifestyle anyhow, so this doesn't really apply to me, but pregnancy is dangerous and even more dangerous, when proper healthcare is made illegal. If I lived in the US, I would be terrified to be in that position, so wouldn't take any chances even with a good man right now. I don't think it's any woman's task to associate with men just so they can have better knowledge of women. It doesn't really seem they want it anyhow or that it teaches them anything. I have always thought that the culture where bad men are tolerated and "not all men" and whatever, hurts good men as well as women, so this isn't even surprising development. Stay safe ❤

[@catA-h6m]

Not only will it be dangerous, but these types of men will not even listen to us. They only view us as objects to be used as they see fit.

[@e.l98]

Absolutely. We have been trying to educate men literally forever, and look where we are. It's clear that it is not women that are going to be able to dismantle the patriarchy, the only way men will listen and learn is by hearing it from other men

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@@soundlessbee If it's any consolation, no woman in the U.S. is being denied life saving care; any time the unborn offspring threatens the life of the mother, the situation is declared a _miscarriage_ and the mother's life is prioritized whether the state has abortion laws or not.

[@jelatinosa]

​@@Antidragon-nl7bytell that to the women who have been dying, to the increase in maternal deaths, to the women who survived being denied life saving care until they were on the brink of death and are now sharing their stories. There are dozens! And as for the deaths, the ones reported were after 2 years, imagine how many recent deaths have not even been reported yet!

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@@jelatinosa Please send the links. Since more than half a dozen such stories _(such as Candi Miller and Amber Thurman)_ have already been debunked, you'll forgive me for taking the time to verify your claims.

[@CorwinFound]

The reality is that good men will find partners, including ones who initially adhere to 4B. Ideally the "free market" of the dating pool will lead to men who are deserving of partners getting them, and the misogynists loosing out. Which means the next generation has a better chance to be raised in an environment of gender equality. I've seen men saying things like, "How will men get better without the help of women," or, "Without women, men become emotionally isolated because they can't interact in honest emotional ways with other men." My answer (as a trans guy) is yes. Those are exactly the issues. It is not women's job to fix men and be their sole emotional outlet. That at least is part of the source of misogyny, the idea that women exist to serve the needs of men, including their emotional needs. Men need to figure this out. And if that includes learning to interact with other men the way they've relied on women... Then man up and start acting like women!

[@brizzx32]

Well said

[@bjoardar]

As a man, I have never heard another man say something like that. In all my time on the internet, I have never seen a comment from someone identifying as a man, say something like that. If you identify as a man, today would be my first time seeing that, but it would make a lot more sense to me if you aren't. Men do in fact interact in "honest emotional ways" with other men. You just might just not have experienced it.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

I'm a man, women say all the time men aren't entitled to a partner so I don't expect one, don't rely on a woman ever. I can be a feminist and an ally but don't tell lies like "good men will find partners". You don't understand how it is for men these days and even a lot of women. There's a loneliness epidemic. But that's better than being stuck with a good partner. Do good men have a better chance of finding partners? Sure. Good partners? Usually unless they've been conditioned to be a doormat. As a man this is my experience, not universal, it is my opinion. I will be a good person no matter what I have to sacrifice regarding my own happiness.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

@bjoardar AMEN agreed. I have seen many men be open. There are also men that are toxic but yeah there are also good men. I don't show emotion typically because most of the time it is seen as attention-seeking. This isn't a male exclusive thing. Womeb do it too. Because noone cares. You gotta keep stuff close to the chest. But I don't rely on women either. Some women really care more but I have to remind myself never to get too close or they'll say I'm using them as an emotional sponge but it's easy enough to keep distance. It's hard to balance caring about friends and going above and beyond and respecting their boundaries, the latter is usually the better.

[@bjoardar]

@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259 There are some men, who when given even the slightest chance to open up, just starts trauma-dumping on the other person, male or female. There are also men, who's problems are kept so close to their heart that you couldn't pry them open with a crowbar. It has always been my belief to find a healthy balance, and just be open with people you feel safe around. Professional or not.

[@rebeccawiens4224]

I'm asexual and Canadian, so please take my opinion on this largely South Korean and American movement with a healthy dose of skepticism . Because of my sexuality and life plans, I am essentially living the 4B life without necessarily subscribing to the movement itself. Even though I would not consider myself a radical feminist (and certainly not a trans exclusionary one!), living a full adult life without the inherent presence or influence of men is seen by most to be quite radical. One aspect that makes the US 4B movement quite unique is the loss or imminent loss of many types of reproductive healthcare. Because women and people who can become pregnant are losing the right to lifesaving medical care when they are pregnant (being vague on purpose so that this comment stays up), for some people, refusing to have sex with people who could get them pregnant is their only option for self-preservation. While the chances of losing your life due to not being able to end a pregnancy are relatively low, they are rising. That number will never be zero, of course, but even people who are wanting to have children are (understandably) less willing to risk their own lives to do so. When your options are theoretically live without men or die carrying a man's baby that you may or may not have wanted in the first place, the decision might not seem quite as radical as it once did. Even people who are not giving up relations with men are already making plans for surviving the presidency such as getting IUDs, surgical sterilization, or other forms of permanent or long-acting contraceptives. They are genuinely considering whether birth control pills and condoms will be available at the end of the 4 years or if they are available if they will be severely restricted, in low supply, extremely expensive, or all three. So yes, I agree with you that there are some issues with the movement. However I think it's hard for non-Americans like myself to understand the visceral fear that is gripping many Americans who are at risk of becoming pregnant. (Edited for grammar and formatting)

[@andromedaspark2241]

With the things some of them have been saying, even if you're celebate but of child-bearing capacity in the US, get as permanent a fix as you can. We all know not all women are able to choose any of it because they're assaulted. Leave nothing to fate with basic birth control like the pill under attack by y'all queda. They think it's abortion, too. It's insane.

[@wafflesthearttoad6916]

I hope they don’t get rid of condoms because they have more purposes than just “not getting pregnant”. It allows people who may or do have STD’s to safely interact with their partners while keeping themselves or their partner safe. Not that the government is smart enough to understand that 😅

[@wafflesthearttoad6916]

@@andromedaspark2241 I’ve wanted to get surgery since forever, but I’m still too young and have no money so I can’t… I’ve resorted to appearing as masc as possible and as constantly pissed off as possible. I’m hoping that increases my chances of staying safe. I usually don’t like conforming to presenting as one gender, but I do enjoy wearing skirts because they’re so fun to wear. So kinda sad I’ll have to dress less fem even if it is a dress fem kinda day. :(

[@jospinner1183]

@@wafflesthearttoad6916 Condoms are in no danger because they are for men. Conservative beliefs value the choices that men make, so condoms will remain easily available. It's birth control for women that's in danger.

[@Iquey]

​@@wafflesthearttoad6916you can dress fem with a group of women friends you feel safe with, but I can concur that dressing androgynous and looking pissed off usually keeps men away! 😂

[@orionspero560]

Whether or not the actual movement is doing good things.Given the treatment of women by men in much of the world and especially south korea, it is entirely justified

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

yea in south korea women are treated horribly and mothers are treated literally like parasites. then they wonder why their birth rates are dropping. its ridiculous.

[@meredithsch.8173]

Thinking through your second point about not fully excluding men, I'm unfamiliar with how this is playing out in South Korea, but not having s*x or romance with men is not the same as not associating with them per se, but perhaps that's implied and I am not informed. That said, I do dislike the take that women are responsible for associating with and thereby fixing men's loneliness and isolation. One, I don't think it will work? Or at least it hasn't seemed to work yet? Two, I would rather place that responsibility on the shoulders of men who are not in as much danger from other men. The other points about excluding LGTBQ+ people and women who make other choices are much more concerning to me. Thank you for raising them.

[@AstronomicalJelly]

sure, it isn't the responsibility of women to "fix" men, but i also don't think isolating men and creating an echo-chamber where they can share and spread their misogynistic ideals with nothing to combat them will do any good either. i will always advocate for educating people instead seen as the ones with the privilege are those who can actually help

[@lrfcowper]

I mean, it's not like we're talking about all women everywhere gathering into their own cities and towns with "No boys allowed" signs at the city limits. Women and men mingle socially, at work, at places of business, at places of worship. Women have dads and brothers and cousins and uncles and grandfathers. Just because members of the 4B movement aren't dating, marrying, or schtupping men doesn't mean there aren't plenty of interactions for men to learn to treat women with respect. Not to mention if women in the 4B movement have children that they raise by themselves, then their sons will grow up in less patriarchal homes. This is just another version of Lysistrata modernized and focusing on a larger issue than a single war.

[@CatarinaStone]

because you know if you do engage with these men but then tell them you're not interested in more than friendship they'll accuse you of friendzoning them. Like, are we pretending that most of these men are actually open to having friendships with women? How about they learn to have actual meaningful friendships with other men first?

[@e.l98]

@@AstronomicalJelly I think that's the issue though, us women aren't the ones that can help. Misogynistic men are never going to listen and learn from us, they will only listen to other men, so trying to educate them is a waste of time

[@venusluv-i1v]

The birth rate crisis in Korea is a great reflection that it's working. This isn't necessarily about men, though. It's moreso about legislation that puts women at risk.

[@erycnelson329]

4B in Korea is pretty different than 4B in America. Especially because S Korea is WAY smaller than the US both physically and population wise. Those were my first thoughts. I barely considered the trans/homophobia in these movements, and I'm trans! I also worry that 4B will backfire in the US because of the incel/manospere types who already view women just living as withholding sex.

[@nebulan]

Just like those mgtow/red pill/incel men paint all women as maniacs, this will feed their argument. I think the Me Too movement was a really good one. It's about respect, not rejecting men who could be true good allies

[@18puppies91]

I also worry it could backfire. You know those videos of women shaving their heads and saying they won't date men have so many men commenting "well nobody would ever want to date you anyway". But I like to think it could cause some good.

[@beardpapa12]

But the current status isn't really working. If we don't do something, we might stumble into the Republic of Gilead. A lot of men will hate women whether or NOT they get sex.

[@TheGamer2001]

It does not matter whether it backfires or not, because males don't view women as humans, thus, they don't deserve to be treated as humans either.

[@urisevenson973]

I saw some videos telling men how to trick girls into thinking they didn't vote for Trump. So I think the dating scene is closed indefinitely (for now)

[@marieugorek5917]

really unfair to corsets. For most of history (yes, even the eras of Pirates of the Carribbean and Bridgerton), corsets were supportive foundation garment which were not tight-laced (could not be, before metal grommets), and which achieved the fashionable sillouette basically by supporting the bust and back and creating a convenient place to put padding. Like, I get the imagery, but as someone who wears corsets because bras hurt my back and shoulders and irritate my skin, I really wish people would choose an image they know something about.

[@sternenblumen]

Thamks, just came here to see if someone has commented about this. As someone very interested in historical garmentry, I find it very disappointing to constantly see the image of corsets as horrible contraptions designed to make women suffer for men's pleasure.

[@hannahnohlgren989]

I made a comment about this as well - Karolina Żebrowska and Bernadette Banner made videos about the myths and misunderstandings about corsets in modern day. I agree with you, I hope Shaaba also looks into it before giving it such a bad rep. Also modern day corsets can be made properly and comfortably. And there are medical corsets made today for people whom need them too. They're not bad if you make them right and wear them right.😥

[@Rosie333Sophia]

Corsets are also seen as empowering to women since they choose to wear it. I like the aesthetic, I love wearing a corset with a blouse and it’s very sad how corsets can be viewed

[@izzilarkins3949]

it's not that I think you're wrong here bestie but I do feel you may have slightly missed the entire point of the video? like sure, history has done corsets dirty and that's worthy of correcting but idk, something about watching a twenty minute video discussing something which is quite existentially important to the lives and wellbeing of minority communities and then leaving a multiple paragraph comment, nit-picking like thirty seconds of said video without any recognition of the broader context or discussion just feels a little dismissive or ignorant

[@marieugorek5917]

nah, I didn't miss the point of the video, I just typed the response I had time to type. Far too much to be addressed regarding the 4B movement from far too many angles.

[@johmayo7042]

4B is a wonderful feminist movement, in my view. I say this as a married woman with a child. I also am a feminist and ally of the LGBTQ+ community. 4B does NOT need ALL feminists to participate in order to be successful. It just doesn't need transphobes, and also doesn't need a centering of men and worrying what will happen to men and if they'll become even lonelier or even less socialized, etc. They aren't wolves. But if they act like predators, the Law still applies to them regardless of the level of interaction women choose to allow with them in their lives.

[@bobbyschannel349]

If men are predators, you don't have to live in their society. as the late great Kevin Sameul said, " if women don't like men, but still live his man-made civilization, " go build Amazonia" you don't have to be around men... leave our cities!

[@carlpanzram7081]

This movement will lead to less lonely men. The reason men have stopped trying to build families is exactly because of promiscuitive norms and rejection of modesty. Now woman voluntarily adapt traditional values and basically become nuns. That is exactly what men want. It's crazy to me how little woman in general understand how men work. They genuinely have zero ability to mind read the other gender. "if I become celibate, surely that will hurt men" 😂

[@noobnoob5789]

Ok nutcase

[@moncorp1]

You're all delusionally paranoid. Pyschotics who think a bunch of fat broads who couldn't get dates anyway, adopting a conservative lifestyle tenant of not having casual sex is going to teach anyone a lesson. You're all on the wrong side of history. It isn't 2017 anymore. Snap out of it. Bwahaha

[@jtl-en4yx]

It is a wonderful movement because it removes feminists from the ge ne pool and from men's lives!

[@amys0482]

absolutely reject anyone who voted against your civil rights, or is in any way manipulative or an abuser. I don't think women rejecting good men who support women is productive, though.

[@bradiedean7466]

Alright my aros and aces, time to start proselytizing about the wonders of Queer Platonic Partnerships to all the girlies. You don't necessarily have to be in a romantic or sexual relationship with someone to have a happy and fulfilling life partnership with them.

[@thekameru6058]

YES

[@kstar1489]

I want this.

[@tealkerberus748]

My two ace-aro adult children have got this figured out. The best friend you can trust several times over never to try to turn a life partnership into something sexual or even romantic .. is a sibling who also happens to be ace and aro.

[@Javiera_Random]

Look for political lesbianism

[@kamii_kaizen]

as an asexual FACTS I WANT A QPR SO BAD but I've never in my life met another asexual/aroace person irl...

[@WillowT442]

I am 3 B. I was married and had my 2 children. I decided after my divorce I did not want to take the chance of having a partner again who does not see me as equal to him. I became tired of doing all of the labor around the house and do not want to take care of a man ever again. I have a son and I am not against men. I am against patriarchy.

[@augusthoglund6053]

I respect that. I have a feminist mom who's given me plenty of unconditional love as her son.

[@brizzx32]

Sounds like you were unequally yoked. Just find the right one you were meant to be with and God will provide the peace that you need.

[@empressmarowynn]

I took myself out of the dating pool a decade ago when my (at the time) boyfriend assaulted me. At first I needed time to heal but then I realized how nice it was to not have to worry about a partner's fragile ego all the time and doing insane amounts of emotional labor just to keep things afloat. Also seeing the prospects available right now even a hook up sounds terrifying.

[@brizzx32]

The 4B movement is a Korean thing, Im assuming that Culture there is a lot different there than over here. That it is mainly male dominent.

[@carlpanzram7081]

It took some serious mental gnastics for you to finally listen to male conservatives advice. Don't hook up, it's dangerous, protect yourself. That is literally what men have been saying for the past few decades. 😂

[@CWazBroadwayBandGeek]

As a Bisexual who prefers women, and has many misogynistic family members in my life, to answer your question: Yes. Yes it’s a good thing.

[@faithpearlgenied-a5517]

100%

[@whatismylifeanymore]

Idk if just 1-2 people saying yes it's a good thing..makes it a good thing-

[@zacharybosley1935]

How much does adopting the 4B movement dramatically change the way you live? It seems pretty easy to say "this movement is good," when it requires nothing of you to contribute. With full recognition of my personal stakes here, I think there's a reason to be mindful about movements that let you feel satisfaction without expecting anything of you.

[@NoxAeterna-wf4iv]

@@whatismylifeanymore then, why are you crying?

[@TheMasterBountakun]

@@whatismylifeanymore I'd need to see a reason why this would be a bad thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced American can stick to any boycott of any kind at this point but I don't see how actually moving forward with it would be negative.

[@heather9130]

I never heard of 4B, but I get it. In 25 years of too-constant dating, I found one unselfish man who gives rather than always taking. I have told my husband that if we split then I'm likely done with men. It's not misandry, it's just that having to sift through so much garbage doesn't appeal to me as a middle aged bi mom. Would dating women be better, kinder, more balanced? I have no idea. If 4B is misandry, I don't think it's the answer. If it's about putting your needs first by staying single, then I'm here for it. Only if it's inclusive of trans women, gay/bi/ace women, poly women, non-binary people if they want to join, etc. Safe spaces for women are still clearly needed. "Your body, my choice" makes me throw up in my mouth a little whenever I hear it.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

But it's not just a male thing. The majority of the pro-life movement consists of women, mostly mothers who formed a deep maternal bond with their unborn children during pregnancy.

[@CJBailey372]

@@Antidragon-nl7by Why do you keep bringing up the pro-life movement? The 4B movement is more about abstaining from romantic relationships with men (which is generally a prerequisite to getting pregnant). In other words, you keep bringing up a topic that isn't really relevant to the video. Besides, I don't know many women who would fit the overlap of Pro-life (which let's be real, is code for forced birth) movement and the 4B movement (who are much more likely to be Pro-Choice).

[@JewelGemstones]

​@@Antidragon-nl7byChill your tits dude. You won't save anyone by crying "notallmen, actually waman tooo!" because women's main predators who can destroy and take their lives are literally men. Not other women.

[@heather9130]

@@Antidragon-nl7by "Your body, my choice" was just an example. I don't think that guy actually cares about fetuses. He's pro dominating women, and statements like that show his true colors. Lots of men with ideals like that feel allowed to speak with Trump in charge. I think 4B is stemming from that. I agree pro life is more women than men. I've argued with the women in my family a lot about it. They just see pregnancy as this magical butterfly transformation. It drives me crazy. It's definitely body horror that should always be a choice.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@@heather9130 That actually got a _like_ from me. I'm afraid we are going to "agree to disagree" on the value of pregnancy and the sanctity of the unborn, but you're not at all wrong about the burden of childbirth. My sister is an ER doctor at Froedtert hospital WI who has delivered her fair share of babies, and she's given some pretty graphic descriptions. In any case, good luck and have a nice day.

[@reignofbliss]

I definitely want to see more of your commentary on ongoing events and political issues! I'm always working on cultivating and practicing empathy (something I think social media tends to dissuade us from). I always find your perspective reflects that kind approach.

[@skunkpelz]

I'm incredibly wary of the 4B movement because of the way it's treated trans women. Trans women and anyone allied with them gets pushed away from the central movement and it's really frustrating. They've even had TERFs speak as part of the movement. But this isn't just 4B, most modern feminist movements put at most the bare minimum into supporting trans women. Trans women could be such an integral part of the fight for women's rights, yet the feminist and trans rights movement have become depressingly split from each other.

[@Milkymommy09]

Many trans women have lived as and been socialized as men. They have benefited from male privilege and most likely have harmed other women when they were still closeted and trying to conform/perform toxic masculinity. It's hard to tell women hey this person was oppressing you and benefiting from male privilege, but now they're living their truth and are oppressed too, so slumber party time! 🎀 Not to mention, if a trans woman still has their fertility intact, they can impregnate other women, and in this country (in many states), that can be a death sentence. It's more nuanced than "we need to welcome AMAB people into the 4B movement."

[@josephinedykstra3383]

I was thinking the same thing- it sounds so much like the political lesbian/separatist lesbian/2nd wave radical feminist movement, which both had good points and just... a terrible track record with the queer community and iirc intersectionality in general. I'll shout Lysistrata time! and wave my labrys with the best of them, but... the biological essentialism and gender binarism just doesn't sit well with me

[@manen2391]

I’ll play devil’s advocate here to explain why. You have to keep in mind 4B and feminism are very much self joining movements and each interpret differently personally and regionally, theoretically 4B could be interpreted as an Aro Ace person’s lifestyle, or abstinence. But in this the reason trans women might get swept to the side is that one of the main or core principles of 4b is bichulsan or no giving birth, and the fact there are Trans women that can get cis women pregnant is also a reason why they might be grouped together. These movements are also very much social media spread, meaning the vocal minority i.e TERFs are more likely to speak on said topic because they are reactionary radicals , where as the silent majority at least in western culture is more likely just add it to their personal lifestyle. The core principles and how most westerners probably interpret them aren’t transphobic, the interpretation some have of them is. It also isn’t inheritently lesbian as that would suggest the heterosexual women participating can suddenly become not het, or what have you, it’s a strike against the men who’ve decided ‘lower’ taxes were more important than treating women like people , taking away their perceived rights to women’s bodies by refusing to interact with men in the ways men want.

[@tealkerberus748]

Trans women who have previously "passed" as men are critically important to feminism's future. They're the ones who really know how differently women are treated to men, because they've experienced being treated as a man - not occasionally, not just on websites where nobody can see their face or hear their voice, but continuously, in their lived experience. When we talk about anything from how we're treated while walking down the street to how we're treated when negotiating a pay rise, they're the sisters who know how we should be treated in those situations, if we had true equality with men. They are the spies who successfully infiltrated the enemy camp and survived to come back and tell us the truth. I don't believe we can ever achieve true equality with men without listening very closely to what these particular trans women have to tell us. Any feminist movement that pushes them away is doomed to fail.

[@ertlchr]

Let's not forget that these political lesbians were not just also homophobic, but specifically towards actual lesbians.

[@firbolg]

I'm a cishet man but can't really blame women for wanting to get away for us. Especially in most conservative countries like South Korea or the US. We've been dicks towards women for centuries, but I agree with you. More communication and exchange not less.. And I like the makeup trend, since in my humble opinion, most women look equally as beautiful with and without makeup.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

But it's not just a male thing. The majority of the pro-life movement consists of women, mostly mothers who formed a deep maternal bond with their unborn children during pregnancy.

[@wombat4583]

@@Antidragon-nl7by You realize gender issues extend beyond the prolife movement right? Even children related issues extend beyond the pro life movement.

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

@@wombat4583 I was just using that as an example. The point was that many issues women are facing are not the fault of men; Plenty of conflicts (including abortion) are against social norms established and imposed _by other women._ Not everything progressive women are struggling with can be blamed on a nebulous patriarchy.

[@wombat4583]

@@Antidragon-nl7by The thing about patriarchy is that it's enforced socially by both genders. It's the normalcy, the integration of society, the subtext of dominance to keep people in their place. It's not like some 2-D villain. Patriarchy, as a name, has more to do with gender dominance and the relational hierarchy (edit: relational in various facets, whether between people or institutes/governments).

[@Antidragon-nl7by]

​@@wombat4583 While that was a far more nuanced and insightful reply than I would have expected, the _normalcy, integration,_ and _subtext_ you mentioned is not inherently masculine in origin. Said "normalcy" was established by strict necessity, not by male whim. It's easy to take the comforts of a post industrial world for granted, but the brutal conditions before then demanded a rigid meritocracy, where both genders were forced to maximize their strengths. Even then, women enjoyed privileges that men did not. They were exempt from the back-breaking labor of in the fields (which put most men in an early grave) were exempt from war (before the Geneva convention, and where hundreds would suffer even if victorious), and would often be the first to teach (indoctrinate) the children in whichever way they saw fit. Yes, 1% of the men held all the political power, but 99% of men were downtrodden serfs. Women didn't suffer under men so much as men and women suffered together and in different ways. TLDR: the norms of society were geared for _survival,_ and _functionality,_ not for something as petty as male whim, and women played a far greater part in shaping it than you'd think.

[@julecaesara482]

You know, when a part of the population is so fed up they supress desire, something that a huuuge chunk of the population is in accord about how unsurpressable it is, you know it had gotten serious

[@hannahnohlgren989]

Shaaba, I suggest you also think critically about corsets- The modern image of them is grossly misunderstood. A *PROPER* corset is comfortable and you can work out and do everything you need to do in it on a daily basis. Women wouldn't, including working farm women, wear a corset if they couldn't breathe or bend over in it. 😅 Bernadette Banner and Karolina Żebrowska are two of many historical KZbinrs that explain the myths and misunderstandings about corsets from modern day actors having cheap and fake corsets/wrong size/not properly put on and whatnot causing this bad vibe about them. ☺ Stay safe everyone.

[@Itri_Vega]

They're popular in the goth community too and before I transitioned I wore them a bunch. Our rule of thumb was that it should never be tied tighter than a firm, yet pleasant hug.

[@aprildawnsunshine4326]

Basically wrote this same comment just a minute ago 😆 I have one that's custom fitted and it's a huge help with my back pain!

[@Rayslasagne]

I came here looking for this comment. I love corsetry, I've made and worn them myself and I feel like I'm constantly having to explain that they're actually misunderstood to people. And half the time those people don't actually listen to me anyway. With all the information we have out here, and even popular creators on youtube making multiple videos on the topic to explain away the misinformation, it's really disappointing to see content creators like Shaaba further pushing the myths about them. Especially when many of the myths were made by men, who were trying to use them as yet another way to say that women were less than them. If a corset is uncomfortable, and genuinely impacting your ability to breath, it is too tight for you and does not fit.

[@k-jm3gl]

Dude.. this isn't what the video is about. She's talking about a serious problem and you come here like "um actually 🤓"

[@elizabethcox8692]

book recommendation: bell hooks "the will to change" - a fabulous book about understanding how men and women can interact in a patriarchal world. I think her thoughts could add a lot of necessary nuance and perspective to this conversation. I so appreciate your thoughts on this! I do think that this movement can be powerful in the short term and very helpful for women who feel unsafe. But I totally agree swearing off relationships of any kind and looking down on those who do not leaves an icky taste in my mouth. I think the most important thing we can all do is protect our safety (which can include not sleeping or interacting with certain people), and build strong, loving relationships with people who will support us during stressful and difficult times.

[@iratakeuchi3031]

Completely agree with your take on the 4B movement. However, just one tiny little thing that is a pet peeve of mine since I learned about corsets: I’m a little disappointed that you view corsets as a symbol for oppressive patriarchy…. Tightlacing is what isn’t good for your body, but corsets and stays were commonplace, and comfortable. More than making yourself smaller, the idea for stays and other such undergarments shaped the clothes to fit a fashionable silhouette on many different body shapes. There was much more adding around hips and shoulders to create a smaller LOOKING waist. Tightlacing was actually not common at all, but MISOGYNISTIC MEN actually spread the idea that tightlacing was a huge fad that all women were doing and that it was dumb and girly and vain… kind of similar to how sexist men today criticize women for “lying” because they wear too much makeup. The idea that tight-lacing was super common has effectively lead to modern women thinking that all corsets were tightlaced and therefore an oppressive beauty standard, when it was literally just an undergarment. A lot of actors wear them incorrectly, and with the wrong type of outer clothes, which makes it uncomfortable. Corsets are almost always worn on bare skin in films like Pirate’s, but irl, they never were. You’re supposed to wear an undershirt in a soft thin fabric underneath. TLDR: the very notion that corsets are a symbol for the patriarchy comes directly from misogynistic men of the past spreading misinformation to make women look bad. So imo, corsets are a feminist symbol. Lol. (Not really, they’re just neutral, like any other piece of clothing)

[@venusluv-i1v]

Ironically though, most men wanted women with small waists and wide hips, so the corset was indeed used to attract men as well. I don't think we can remove this part of history just because corsets did some good, even if men made fun of us for it. Men have made fun of all of our attempts to be attractive just as much as our attempt to be expressive.

[@meg5323]

I've inadvertently been a part of 4B since 2021. My ex wasn't even a bad guy, but we still had problems, and as we both wanted different things out of life, it was clear that we had no future together. We were together for four years, but when we broke up, I just felt like a massive weight was lifted off my shoulders. I just felt so free, and like I could finally slow down and take a breath. And then it made me realise that being in a relationship doesn't add anything to my life. I prefer my own company (though I'm an autistic, anxious introvert so, go figure), I find dates intimidating and awkward so I just don't go on them, and I've always been childfree by choice anyway. A life without dating, relationships, pregnancy or childbirth honestly sounds so good to me. In the last few years, I've been told to "get on those dating apps", and try to get out there and meet people, and that I'm approaching 30 so I really "need" to settle down. But none of it's hitting me. Maybe one day I'll find someone who's perfect for me and who I feel truly comfortable around. But I'm not gonna go looking for them. If they come around, they come around. If they don't, they don't. I'm content as I am. I'm all for 4B, as long as women are doing it for themselves and their own happiness, rather than just trying to prove a point. If it takes the choice away from other women, it's defeating the purpose, and I hope I don't ever see women pressuring others to break up with their boyfriends or divorce their husbands when they don't want to. It would be impossible to get the whole of the country on board with the 4B movement, but it shouldn't be about how many people do it. It should be about the individual, and putting themselves first.

[@millerd420]

Sounds depressing.

[@meg5323]

​@@millerd420Yeah, well, you would say that, wouldn't you? But I'm actually very happy 😊

[@tealkerberus748]

Settling down doesn't need to involve another person - and if you decide another person in your home would make it easier to pay the bills, you can choose another introverted autistic person who is comfortable sharing a home without expecting a romantic or sexual relationship. Enjoy your life the way it works for you.

[@meg5323]

​@@tealkerberus748 That's very true! Thank you 🩷

[@thewingedcheetahwolf2615]

I am lucky enough to have a super sweet and respectful bf but I of course support the 4B movement and respect anyone abstaining from men

[@jtl-en4yx]

Do you respect men who elect to do the same with wo men?

[@biblioholic7139]

I think movement might be a bit of a misnomer, at least in the US. It seems more of a shorthand for women making the individual choice to tell men to literally go eff themselves. Women are realizing that the increased risk being in a romantic relationship with a man brings is not worth the "reward".

[@LilChuunosuke]

I've been 4B for a few years now. Nearly every time a man has made romantic advances towards me, I inevitably would begin to feel unsafe at one point or another. I have had MULTIPLE men attempt to kiss me within MINUTES of me telling them that I need to move relationships slow because I was SAed as a child. 4B isn't just a protest. It's self defense. I didn't start 4B to protest men. I started 4B because American male culture is so toxic that I legitimately feel unsafe around the vast majority of men. I feel like it's also worth discussing the cause of the 4B movement in SK a LOT more, though I understand that SK was not the main topic of this video. The "men's rights movement" in SK is legitimately horrifying. Men are publicly harassing pregnant women in public and taking their accomodations (such as taking accessible seating for pregnant women) then mocking pregnant women for expecting "special treatment," thowing pizza parties in front of protestors on hunger strike, celebrities are getting fired from their labels for stating vaguely pro-feminism statements (such as implying women don't exist to serve a future husband), etc. The leader of the SK men's rights movement literally went to jail for SAing a woman in public. The movement started because a lot of SK men thought his criminal charges were UNJUST! When society justifies and allows violence against women, 4B is nothing more than an act of self defense.

[@TheJoelef]

Nope it a bigoted anti male group that should be a the hate group list. I’m starting a group to get 4b labeled as a hate group

[@rainbowtropolis]

As a trans man, after walking through my town and having women now making barfing noises at me, I can see where this is an issue. Being AFAB but not wanting to out myself, I just kept walking and not saying anything because I can understand where they're coming from. I've had a hysto & top surgery, growing out my huge beard to pass as male: I never wanted kids to begin with because of horrible genetics. I still say I can agree with 4B in many aspects, but not wanting to be chastised in public is something I'd rather not deal with being I used to be in their shoes so to speak. Everyone has their right to body autonomy I agree, but being shamed from my "original posse" is a bit weird and quite a bit of and adjustment lately.

[@popejaimie]

I'm sorry, women are barfing at you? I don't think it's because you're a man, I don't know why they're doing it, but making barfing noises at men is not a thing women are doing, generally. This seems like more of a specific situation kind of thing.

[@rainbowtropolis]

@@popejaimie Not where I live. It's weird up here. People screaming at their lunches while walking down the middle of the road, people on bikes falling over in front of the drivers to see if they can convince them they've been hit, the other day a guy threw a gal out of a 5th story window. Drugs are involved quite a bit because the employment sucks in a small town.

[@popejaimie]

@@rainbowtropolis you should move to literally anywhere else on earth. The specific situation here is that you apparently live in an open air asylum

[@tealkerberus748]

Have you considered moving? That just sounds like a really toxic environment you live in, and you really do deserve better. Agreed, you don't deserve to be targeted like that. Firstly, trans men just aren't a danger to cis women in terms of causing a pregnancy that could turn life-threatening, and secondly, there is no statistically significant record of trans men abusing or murdering their girlfriends or wives the way so many cis men do. You are the safe option for heterosexual women who don't want to go celibate, and I'm sorry that not being out (and not dealing with all the drama that comes with being out) puts you in a situation of being treated the same as a cis man.

[@rainbowtropolis]

@@tealkerberus748 I've been considering moving for years now. Nothing is available for my kind of housing within an 80 mile radius except Duluth, and that's got a 4 year waiting list. And Duluth isn't much better tbh. Just trading one problem for another. I definitely would love to get out of this place specifically though if there were a safer place with good medical care (I have crappy genetics so I've got a lovely list of disabilities that tick me off!) I have a VERY small friend circle for sure, and I'm becoming so antisocial that I sleep all day and wait for night time to even come out of my apartment. I wish there were more safe havens or whatever they could be called. And yes, I'm being treated like a cis predator walking around when I am out during the day (Hence my first post about the whole situation) In my town we have something called " ___ offender avenue" because the city puts all the offenders who need to be public on that street for the most part, but my town is kind of a dumping ground for those kind of people. I can't really say I blame the ladies who make the noises at me, the men around here are notorious for being terrible.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

I’ve heard about this topic so much and I’m so happy to see it discussed.

[@ctfddftba]

There’s a stereotype in S.Korea that you are nicer if you are petty because people have treated you better in your life, and if you are “ugly” you are automatically mean because you’ve been treated bad due to your looks

[@jtl-en4yx]

That is the truth!

[@Tacom4ster]

I'm on my antinatalist arc, it's unethical to raise children under fascism

[@7avdes]

bro same

[@TheJoelef]

Good more conservative children. Keep up the 4b liberal ladies. I support you 100%

[@Tacom4ster]

@TheJoelef I'm not a liberal, liberals allowed fascists to take over Germany in WW2

[@Tacom4ster]

@@TheJoelef I'm not a liberal

[@raven3moon]

​@@Tacom4sterI doubt this person knows that the left has a while spectrum of beliefs, with "liberals" occupying the space from center right to (barely) center left, but no further.

[@tyghe_bright]

As a gay trans man, I'm choosing to focus my attention, companionship, and spending on women, non-binary people, and trans folks as much as I'm able. Cis men, including bi and gay men, have a higher bar to meet to be worth my time and resources. (Like, my sister's husband is cool.) This also includes educating cis men. It's mostly been an energy drain. And in general, I think there's a lot to be gained from people focusing on smaller communities and lifting up the people who need it.

[@tyghe_bright]

Also, 4B and similar movements are never something we hold other people accountable to. It's always a boundary for ourselves.

[@TheJoelef]

Your a anti male bigot

[@FrankLee-f7y]

A new age of segregation has begun. We all see how well that did the first time...

[@evgraph_polycarpovich]

7:51 one karolina żebrowska is crying somewhere right now

[@FandomFrenzy]

My Ace and Lesbian self joining the 4-B movement like I wasn’t already doing that my whole life 💀

[@kamii_kaizen]

Real 😭

[@angelalycos2.076]

🤣You're awesome!

[@FandomFrenzy]

@@angelalycos2.076 aw thx

[@TriforceLiz]

Yes, I miss these video essay brain-farty type videos from you Shaaba! Thank you for bringing up the issues with 4B being potentially trans-exclusionary and having issues for the queer community- it's an aspect I haven't seen discussed yet!

[@jelatinosa]

The thing is, I have been seeing a lot of content and reading a lot about this movement and people's experiences with this movement, and not once have I seen any transphobic or exclusionary language. I have seen people say that anybody who can get pregnant should abstain from having physical relations with anyone who can potentially get them pregnant, not because of discrimination of trans women who can still do so, but because pregnancy in much of the US is increasingly dangerous for women and those who can get pregnant. It's obviously every individuals choice, but when participating in this particular movement in the US, part of it is just avoiding pregnancy, especially in areas where it is more risky, but also understanding that it can become risky everywhere is magas manage to enforce a federal ban.

[@TriforceLiz]

@@jelatinosa good to know. I've watched a few video essayists discuss this and they have not brought up transphobic/exclusionary issues, but given the current rhetoric toward trans people, it doesn't seem like a stretch. I'll have to do my own research, as I'm largely in support of the movement.

[@randomschoko1323]

Glad that the video also adresses the problematic aspects of 4B. I think it's difficult to implement the 4B movement in a country like the US not just because things like "political lesbianism" already were a thing in the women's movements in the West in second wave feminism and the ideas behind 4B are therefore not really a new thing. But also women in South Korea are in a very different position e.g. concerning their human rights and safety issues. A lot of these issues are not in the public consciousness (far from it actually). The word "feminist" for example is regarded as a slur in Korea and female stars have literally been publicly harassed for "seeming feminist", reading a feminist book or just for having short hair and not wearing makeup so it's a very different game to be part of the 4B movement in Korea or even being a feminist as a woman. (And as far as I know 4B is a fringe movement in South Korea.)

[@therat1117]

Not only is it fringe, but transphobic! People talk about 4B as if it is the forefront of South Korean feminism, rather than a splinter group of TERF/SWERFs that has essentially rejected mainstream feminist goals in the ROK.

[@purplecherub]

Political lesbianism is a bullshit term. Do I need someone's permission to call myself a lesbian now? Why assume most women are straight?

[@purplecherub]

The argument that only Korea needs 4B and not the rest of the world is bs

[@botanicalitus4194]

4B is hardly the same as politicaIIesbianism, for one its primarily personal choice and not a call to action. Secondly, it doesnt aim to change society, just to makewomen feel comfortable and supported if they choose to swear off of ever forming these types of relationships withmen. Third, it promotes being single, not cosplaying as being part of the Igbtq community when youare not

[@tinap8227]

I am fully supportive of the concept. If I was in the US, in a position to get pregnant and the majority of men were voting against my healthcare I wouldn't date them either. Just like I think gay and trans people shouldn't date any MAGA either. Voting is no longer about economics and minor policies, it's becoming about removing peoples rights and freedoms.

[@AsunaYuukiSAO3]

I wish women would date short men and not have hypergamous dating requirements, and we all know height matters in dating. And I do want women to have certain rights and freedoms, but what rights do you think you don't have?

[@AsunaYuukiSAO3]

What about when short guys want to date women? but they get rejected because their short I don't see women wanting other women to lower their standards and not use a man solely for his money like many women in modern dating. A manlet is a man of short height. In over 90% of relationships, the man is taller than the woman, which is a greater percentage than what would happen upon random pairing up of people. More women than men care about height preferences/requirements, with a little over half of men caring, but there being at least 94% of women who outright refuse to date a man shorter than themselves.[1] This is due to sexual selection; women want to pass on the 'fittest' genes to their offspring. Females are the selectors (outside of rape), by carefully selecting which men they mate with, they guard which genes get passed on to the next generation, and which don't. For every inch that a man becomes shorter, his dating pool becomes exponentially smaller. An extremely short man has an extremely small dating pool. An extremely short woman has more options, because short girls are considered feminine and cute, and men are generally much less selective in their choice of sexual partners.

[@tinap8227]

@@AsunaYuukiSAO3 I wasn't talking about myself, I live in a country where I mostly have equal rights, although how long that lasts I do not know. But MAGA's intent is to remove rights from women and minorities. I don't see how anyone could in good conscious date someone actively supporting the removal of your rights and freedoms. This isn't about preferences.

[@littlebird8515]

Thanks for talking about this. I had no idea what 4B was and was far to afraid to ask questions.

[@TheKewlPerson]

It feels like no one is really talking about the terf origins of the movement. I kinda feel uncomfortable about it as a trans woman who felt super distanced and pushed away by women I just wanted to be friends with pre transition, and it always felt exhausting and dysphoric at times.

[@kstar1489]

4B does not have to be TERFy, my take away is to at least not do the 4Bs with people that don’t care and respect your human rights. I’m sorry you were pushed away by some women, but that’s their right and you’ve got to understand why women would not want to be friends with people presenting and identifying as men (most often specifically those living as cis-men)

[@tealkerberus748]

I hope you can find better friends soon. Trans women and cis women are all *women* and you belong in our communities and safe spaces.

[@therat1117]

@@kstar1489 4B is inherently TERFy. Its principle is that men are irredeemable savages to the point that women must completely distance themselves from them, rather than trying to build a better society for both women and men by dismantling the patriarchy. It is a fundamentally bioessentialist and radical feminist position, as well as defeatist, because it envisions that there can be no peace between women and men save the extinction of humanity. I have met as many if not more good and understanding men in my life than good and understanding women. I do not trust anyone who tries to convince me that men are the enemy, because they are trying to split me from my allies in the cause of defeating patriarchy in my society.

[@someonewithazeldaprofilephoto]

​@@kstar1489you are the women she is talking about. You are pushing her away. You are literally saying she should accept other women pushing her, a woman, away, because she 'appears to be' a man?? We can sure as hell hold women accountable for their transphobia. Also NO ONE is calling 4B terfy, just saying it has transphobic roots. You denying that and your overall tone is absolutely disgusting. Do better. Be a trans ally.

[@ieshadover]

Remember 4 years ago in Afgan women could go to collage, hold jobs as doctors, lawyers and heads of state. They didnt withdraw from men but look how they are treated now and they dont have options.

[@levelup4504]

4B doesn’t take away other choices for women.

[@aryaastark9201]

Exactly. Just because a person chooses to participate in the 4B movement doesn't mean she wants everyone to do it. Nobody is being forced to do anything.

[@watching7721]

I would be surprised if it could

[@thiacari]

I want to keep the relationships I have with great men. We should find and get more great men onboard, leave the angry violent guys in the dust!

[@faith-by-faith]

I'm worried this is going to turn into another lesbian separatism. It's fine if it's a personal choice made for yourself, but it has so much potential to become something that separates women from each other, and to separate people from each other in general. I don't think this is the movement's fault, I think it's the tendency of western culture to suck the nuance out of everything--the whole "if you love pancakes you must hate waffles" mentality to give a silly example.

[@therat1117]

I mean, it basically already is lesbian separatism.

[@RandyAdamNeu]

Dudes have had more than enough time to learn about the experiences of women. Many simply refuse to. Male isolation is a male problem, and we need to address it ourselves. 4B isn't going to lead to further isolation and misunderstanding, as we are doing just fine misinformating and isolating ourselves. I encourage men to start holding each other accountable for this behavior. No amount of "think of the men" (as it was cheekily referred to in the video) will help.

[@carlpanzram7081]

This will not lead to more isolation, the modest tenants of the 4b movement is exactly what men have been wishing for. Men will celebrate modest woman. Adhering to 4b standards will make conservative men respect you more.

[@MohammedAli-hl4mr]

@@carlpanzram7081 4b isn't about staying as chaste and being a virgin to wait for marriage its about avoidng men especially conservative men so it won't benefir conservative men

[@My-handle-is-here]

​ It seems like you didn't get the point of the 4B movement.

[@wtfdidijustwatch1017]

@@MohammedAli-hl4mr It unfortunately will inadvertently benefit them

[@MohammedAli-hl4mr]

@@wtfdidijustwatch1017 not really because those women are closed of to bigoted men so there will be way more incels and mgtow types more demand but less supply

[@TheCatLady65]

I'm sooo glad I live in a democracy in Africa where women's rights are entrenched in our constitution! Misogyny is literally a crime here punishable by up to *seven* years in prison!

[@straumboney1903]

What about Misandry?

[@roachewy]

@@straumboney1903 Nobody cares about misandry

[@kolaoshun6298]

@@straumboney1903no such thing.

[@watching7721]

Rwanda. Though it should be noted to be more precise that it's not holding misogynistic views that are illegal, but acts. What they are referring to is that inciting violence or discrimination based on gender is criminalized, which gets a maximum sentence of 7 years. Most of it is not unlike laws in a lot of Western nations, but some of them have stricter penalties

[@AsunaYuukiSAO3]

Misandry (/mɪsˈændri/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against men or boys.[1][2] Men's rights activists (MRAs) and other masculinist groups have characterized modern laws concerning divorce, domestic violence, conscription, circumcision (known as male genital mutilation by opponents), and treatment of male rape victims as examples of institutional misandry. However, in virtually all societies, misandry lacks institutional and systemic support comparable to misogyny, the hatred of women.[3][4][5]

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

absolutely support the 4B movement. I might not be into women but I started "shit testing" the cishet guys around me that I associate my self with to see their views. it only made my support for the 4B stronger. I have no lost touch with people I considered to be my friends, but I genuinely cannot associate with them anymore.

[@jtl-en4yx]

So you started being antagonistic to men, and they didn't like it, so you are the victim?! This right here is why men just need to walk away!

[@AsunaYuukiSAO3]

@@jtl-en4yx A shit test, or confidence test, is a term used among PUAs to designate when, during courtship, a femoid sneakily tests a man to find out whether he is an alpha Chad or beta wimp, or to test his aptitude in any skill. Men engaging in banter or light-hearted insults toward each other is also commonly claimed to be a form of shit-testing. Thus, shit-tests are argued to represent an integral component of how neurotypical people jockey for status in the dominance hierarchy. The general idea is that a woman that is sexually interested in a man will tend to test his confidence, positive self-image and "frame control" by intentionally behaving in a hostile or provocative manner towards him to see how he will react to this "test." Proponents of shit-test theory will argue that if a man acts in a way that displays "high value," generally dismissively or contemptuously, he will "pass" this test. Proponents also argue that the woman will consequently be more attracted to him. Some PUAs argue that "negging", or backhanded compliments directed at a woman in an attempt to lower her self-esteem and thus her self-perceived social value relative to the PUA, ergo making her more attracted to him, represent a form of shit test that a man can deploy during courtship to shift the odds in his favor. Critics of PUA techniques, such as advocates of the blackpill, tend to argue that whether a woman is attracted to a man or not depends more on his objective sexual market value than how he responds to a woman's provocative behavior, and that women will tend to be submissive and polite, and not rude or destabilizing, towards men they are truly attracted to. Research does tend to suggest that teasing a man is a surprisingly common way a woman displays sexual interest[1] though as banter is a common component of social interaction it can be hard to tell whether how a man reacts to this "testing" is a major determinate of further attaction to him. It does seem that, in social interactions in general, verbal insults play a large role in negotiating peer status. These kinds of insults or "tests" are also not necessarily malicious in intent, with such repartee being commonly associated with greater social inclusion and cohesion, depending on context.[2]

[@AsunaYuukiSAO3]

@@jtl-en4yx Kinds of -tests Some have attempted to divide -tests into multiple categories. These include: Dominance tests. Shit-tests where one party in a social interaction attempts to probe how mentally resilient the other one is. Typically, they insult the other's masculinity (if they are a man) or toughness, i.e. calling someone a . One supposedly generally passes this test by convicingly displaying toughness and high self-regard. Compliance tests. Shit-tests where someone attempts to test how agreeable and submissive a person is, generally in the view of seeing if they are someone they can walk over and manipulate. A good example would be when women request men run errands for them or perform menial tasks. One supposedly generally passes this test by refusing dismissively. A fitness test is said to generally take the form of banter, so light-hearted insults or teasing intended to ascertain one's level of social awareness and general social skills. To "succeed" at this shit-test one needs to endure this verbal aggression and retaliate in a manner that puts the testers ego in check and diffuses the situation, preventing it from escalating into a shouting match or an open display of violence.[3]

[@hollowednight5290]

As a trans woman who’s seen as much as I can on both perspectives of the gender spectrum, I can’t help but think this will only worsen the divide between men and women. There’s already a massive loneliness epidemic and while I 100% support women’s choice, I’m not exactly sure if restricting oneself this much is the answer. I believe that there are more ways to approach the situation. For instance, if we raised our children to be more respectful and kind (like my parents did) we would see less of this. Essentially tackling the problem at its root, at least as much as we can. Similarly, we could put better services in places like schools or in one’s community that help not just men, but everyone else with their issues and teach them proper manners and respect. I went through something similar while I had an IEP (because I have autism). I was essentially taught how to be a good functional person by a group of people who cared for me. This kind of support system could be monumental for everyone. Regardless, I hope everyone stays safe and has a phenomenal weekend. Much love.

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

well the problem is that they see majority of men to be this way, and I honestly doubt if they are even wrong. and I dont think we can blame upbringing, in the end adults are responsible for their own behavior "you are everything that is wrong with you." so they should make conscious effort to not be a total pos. but they arent willing to do that. so these women going 4B have gotten tired of putting up with the bs and i cant blame them.

[@tealkerberus748]

Mothers have been trying to raise sons to be "better than that" for generations. But against the pressure of cis het men's culture, that's very much an up hill battle. An effective teaching system that would teach all kids to be decent human beings would be amazing. But not only do we currently not have that for most kids, the culture that boys are exposed to in school and in extracurricular activities is mostly extremely toxic. Then when they get to adulthood, they don't have any incentive to change that attitude, and many fathers compound the problem by passing the toxicity on to their sons. You stay safe out there too.

[@SanjuktaSahoo-cm6uh]

As a man I fully support the 4B movement more and more women should do this.

[@bobbyschannel349]

SIMP

[@tealkerberus748]

Thank you. We appreciate your support.

[@TheJoelef]

Simp

[@Kaydok001]

​@@bobbyschannel349Brother that makes no sense. Advocating women to not be with men is somehow gonna make women wanna be with him... a man?

[@bobbyschannel349]

@Kaydok001 oh no. That's not what I'm saying... if that's what you're insinuating.. I'm saying. Men don't need women. Women need men

[@DjurslandsEfterskole]

Highly encourage everyone attracted to men (especially compulsory heterosexual women) to read about relationship anarchy, amatonormativity and queer platonic relationships ❤️ There's nothing wrong with being with men. However, having the choice is nice. And the idea that the only way to find true companionship and happiness is through a singular romantic relationship with the sex you're attracted to is everywhere. There are SO many types of relationships! Sexual, romantic, platonic, life partners, house mates, co-parents. These can be many, different, healthy relationships existing along side each other. All those roles do not have to be delegated to one (1) person. All those roles are not necessarily depend on attraction. You do not have to co-parent etc with people you are attracted to. Rainbow families exist in many, beautiful forms. Additionally - when it comes to sex, there are so many more ways to be intimate and get pleasure than what's in the heteronormative script. And there are ways to get your rocks of and be close, connected, kinky without risking pregnancy. As a queer trans guy - believe me. And I've only just begun

[@vivvy_0]

Well great, you say there are many ways but then don't elaborate on what and where

[@someonewithazeldaprofilephoto]

As an aromantic trans guy it pains me (not really of course) how many comments are blatantly copying the points we have made for years. Please listen to us we have some interesting take on relationships and stuff /lighthearted /hj

[@mnorris790]

I wonder to what extent the 4b movement is inspired by the Icelandic women's strike. The context is very different obviously, right down to the level of geography. Iceland is an island after all.

[@therat1117]

I would say not at all. The Icelandic women's strike was foremost a labour strike where women walked out of their jobs, inside and outside of the house, and let the men flounder without them. It also had distinct political goals, namely the passing of a law to institutionalise gender equality in pay and hiring practices. This 'movement' is more akin to a lifestyle choice being sold as something 'radical' or 'progressive'.

[@mnorris790]

@@therat1117 Nevertheless even if it isn't in your estimation a real movement, it must have been inspired by something. I think to the extent that your argument appears to be that you like the Icelandic strikers but don't like the 4b I have to wonder if it's relevant.

[@therat1117]

@@mnorris790 I am thoroughly indifferent to the Icelandic strike because it isn't relevant to modern politics. I am also indifferent to 4B, but I dislike the amount of orientalism white people are applying to it about Korean women, and find its premise to be self-defeating, reactionary, and somewhat homophobic and transphobic.

[@cedarsays]

Thank you for the thoughtful analysis. I decided not to date again after my divorce because he was the worst offender in a group of men who all made my life harder and more painful, no net positive to any of those relationships…except my sons. I am grateful for the chance to raise them to be emotionally intelligent. The thing I noticed over and over in dating men is that they really struggle to name and process their emotions, opting instead to tear me down and make me responsible for THEIR mental health.

[@TheJoelef]

Or you could stop being an anti male bigot .

[@carly6107]

Totally for people making whatever choice is best for them, including abstaining from relationships, etc. but as a broader movement, I think it may end up doing more harm than good. I think that focusing on excluding based on identity rather than excluding based on behavior is dangerous. I think it’s better to have firm boundaries over what behavior you’ll tolerate, and if that happens to exclude all men that you know, so be it. they’re not being excluded because of their identity, they’re being excluded because they chose to vote for trump, or own a gun, or associate with people who are shitty, or refused to take accountability, etc. This centers specific problems instead of blacklisting identities. I also think it’s a more useful framework for women in shitty relationships. Instead of asking women to reject their partners for being male, which I do think is dumb, it asks them to reject their partners for the hurtful choices their partners may have made. Men are not inherently shitty-they have autonomy and many use that autonomy to do horrific things, which is worse, and worth identifying explicitly.

[@bookishdaydreams4993]

This!

[@e.l98]

The issue is obviously we don't know how these men act until we get to know them. We won't know if that man will hurt us, until he hurts us if you get me? Therefore, a full ban on all men is a safer choice.

[@kesar8942]

But if we see that many men understand that women don't want to be associated with people like them and often hide under the guise of being in the middle or not engaging in political conversations or straight up lying . It sounds great to say learn about their political thoughts but it's difficult when they know that this is wrong but they still belive in it .

[@wombat4583]

I would argue that everyone is inherently shitty to a degree and everyone is raised with beliefs that become unconscious that many don't even recognize or consider certain actions and words they commit to are harmful. (They scale also exists for benevolence but it's not an either or thing and the two aren't even on a scale together as opposing forces). Everyone is on a scale and most people are probably higher up that scale then they want to believe. Ironically, people always try to pass the blame for people to protect themselves better but when they decide on hard lines of what to do there's always backlash or new ways to prod and complain anyway.

[@tabathaalshalhoub1653]

👏👏👏

[@JustinWO-31]

I've been trying to limit my exposure to news as well and write a book. I've actually been more picky about even other gay men I date because a lot of them in my state voted for trump. I would just say we could be more discerning about who we get in relationships with.

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

yeah that is def what I dont understand. why would they vote a madman who is willing to take away their basic human rights.

[@JustinWO-31]

@KossolaxtheForesworn because they don't care about trans people and they believe the bs about the economy being better under trump and they don't believe women's health is in danger. Basically, they have misplaced faith that trump doesn't have anything to do with project 2025. And don't believe it's even a real thing.

[@tealkerberus748]

That's truly scary. Did none of them hear the people who took down Roe talking about how they wanted to take down same sex marriage next? Cis gay men may be a lower priority for them than pregnant people and transgender folk, but you can't ignore that you're on the list!

[@Radhaun]

I don't necessarily think the 4B movement would segregate the genders that much since it's not about locking men out platonically. So like, any of my femme friends who are participating in 4B are still going to talk to me, they'll still be my friend, they just won't have any sexual or romantic male partners. I think it might be good for more cismen to learn what friendship looks like. If they're aware a lot of women are practicing 4B, just maybe they'll stop going into relationships expecting sex and be more likely to learn how to be proper friends across gender lines. I'm not sure how likely it is, but I can certainly hope!

[@tealkerberus748]

Cis het men going into friendships with attractive single women and *not* expecting the friendship to lead to sex would be a godsend.

[@Autistic_Goblin]

13:21 to be fair, men shouldn't need to be dating, boinking, married to, it having kids with women in order to learn how to be a better person. There's nothing that says we as women can't even interact with men. In fact, part of the 4B movement SHOULD be educating. As a happily married mom, I will use my privilege to spread the word and educate from my safe position. And it's on us matriarchs to protect our 4B sisters. ❤

[@TheDopekitty]

No more corset defamation

[@Sleepylevi]

How about the 4b movement should be that u should avoid toxic men. Or at least toxic people in general. Instead of just men in general

[@raven3moon]

How does one avoid toxic men when said toxic men will lie about themselves for literal years, only to change one they feel the woman is invested or baby-trapped? It happens a lot, and the red-pilled rhetoric of "choose better," which is what your argument sounds like, doesn't work irl.

[@straumboney1903]

​@@raven3moonWhat do you consider toxic?

[@sleepyspacegremlin]

I consume media very mindfully now. I still fall for rage-bait, but I realize what I'm doing and change my behavior. It takes practice but it's much better.

[@theaureliasys6362]

the big problem with the 4B movement is that they usually do not do any feminist analysis what so ever, which kinda leads to a "look left, take a sharp right turn" phenomenon. such as them often ending up being weird proto terfs.

[@tabithaesaacson9039]

I think the 4B movement is less about "You can't love men" and more about "these men don't deserve a place in my life". I know many women who have noticed problematic behaviors in their boyfriend (If you got pregnant you would keep the baby, Why don't you go cook in the kitchen with my mom, I know I made a promise to spend time with you this weekend but my buddies want to go out for beers), but have excused them because they are "so in love". Their boyfriend/husband may respect ONE woman, but he does not respect ALL women. The thought being if a certain type of man isn't getting any adult fun time that maybe he will finally pull his head out of his a$$.

[@jtl-en4yx]

This is why we need to bring back legal brothels so that you all can't hold that over our heads anymore! Also a lot of men have been shut out of this already, so how is this going to threaten them?

[@joanfregapane8683]

I am sort of 4-B also, but that’s not quite fair as I already had two children (grown up long ago), with a grandchild, am a widow, and never intend to date again. But the landscape here in the U.S. is currently dangerous for too many women in too many states, so I don’t blame any woman who wants to go 4-B for the time being at least. When eventually we get back full reproductive rights again, perhaps women can reevaluate if they wish.

[@bobbyschannel349]

you have reproductive rights. you can choose to have kids or not

[@venusluv-i1v]

@@bobbyschannel349 In some states, no they don't. Brittany Watts got arrested for having a miscarriage while she was sitting on a toilet. As usual, this is why we need to avoid men who don't know anything about women's bodies.

[@caaaaaammmmmmmmm]

Yea if I’m participating in the 4B movement at all (as a trans woman) it’s just to avoid guys that voted for trump for his hateful policies. But either way imma be avoiding people from any group that did that so 4B doesn’t matter all that much to me outside of the message of dumping the patriarchy.

[@someonewithazeldaprofilephoto]

For real. As a trans guy I dont fully understand why youd only cut out guys, cut out all the toxic people in your live regardless of identity.

[@silverghostcat1924]

I'm tired of having to worry/think about men's feelings when the problem is one they created for themselves. The objectifying of women and girls, as being nothing more than vessels of their pleasure with no thought about their feelings is repulsive. Too many men have "main character syndrome", contrary to their beliefs the world doesn't revolve around them. The Andrew Tates of the world are the ones that have made it harder for men and women to have meaningful relationships.

[@bobbyschannel349]

you don't have to live in our man-made society... you can leave, women have been mooching off of men for 25,000 years. acting like victims when men have been giving you everything.... for free. the late great Kevin Sameul said... if you don't like men leave and go build Amazonia!!

[@VideosForYou90]

This comment >>>

[@bobbyschannel349]

@@silverghostcat1924 no...... and you take only been around for a couple of years...no...... and you take only been around for a couple of years... the hardships between men and women come from feminism. When they change, the dynamic between male and female changed.

[@silverghostcat1924]

@bobbyschannel349 it needed to change. I'm tired of the patriarchy running things. As far as I'm concerned the world is in the shape it's in because of men's never ending desire for power and conquest at any cost. Women are for the most part seen as things to be dominated and ruled with no say. Whose only use is for sex, having and taking care of progeny and being servants. No thank you.

[@silverghostcat1924]

@bobbyschannel349 🤣🤣🤣

[@Jordyb33123]

This was a new concept to me! Given the end of my last relationship with a man ended with the police arresting him, I’ve been really put off starting to date again for 6 months now, this concept really appeals to me! I’m not saying I’m off dating women but everything happening in the world is putting me more and more off men. I get it

[@tealkerberus748]

Cats are amazing. And you don't need to be in a romantic relationship with someone to share a home and split your bills.

[@Javiera_Random]

Search about political lesbianism 😊

[@themetalgamer9864]

Reject men you know or suspect to be Conservative, and let them know that's the reason. Reward progressive men.

[@sm4sher45]

Every progressive men i know have their wife cheated on them by hunky dude while they watch 😂

[@YourQueerGreatAuntie]

Hey @shaaba, thanks so much for doing this "brain fart video essay"! Really valuable and really interesting. I also appreciate it in the light of the short you uploaded the other day. I think you're a great voice for intersectional and international feminism. So thanks!

[@GaleForceKaif]

The idea that women not having relationships with men will make them understand them less is quite a reach, imo. Men literally have all the opportunities and resources in the world to try to understand women. Women write and speak constantly about their experiences, women constantly reach out to men to try to make them understand. The problem is that men simply don't care enough about women to listen to them. So the idea that women shouldn't swear men off just because it will make men understand or care about them less when men have proven time and again that they already don't care is... kind of silly, to put it nicely.

[@wtfdidijustwatch1017]

She’s saying it could make the situation worse by spreading hate

[@raven3moon]

​​@@wtfdidijustwatch1017Can you give alternatives that don't include extra emotional labor, but that also keeps women/AFAB people safe from further violence and stripping of rights? For American women and AFABs, this is not a philosophical exercise, this is an immediate existential crisis. What practicable solutions would you propose?

[@GaleForceKaif]

@@wtfdidijustwatch1017 Yes, I know what she is saying. I'm just saying that I disagree, and why.

[@wtfdidijustwatch1017]

@@raven3moon Ask the person who made the video. I was just saying what she was saying

[@wtfdidijustwatch1017]

@@GaleForceKaif Why disagree when she’s right?

[@salemalvord8812]

Burned Haystack Dating Method is a less radical but also super important feminist movement that I think is going to be very important going forward. It's all about recognizing red flags, dog wistles, and avoiding toxic men in general.

[@jamiethebookworm]

I think that choosing not to interact with (cis) men as that makes gender minorities feel safe isn't neccassirily wrong. It is ok to not want to be around people. I also think that platonic friendship is perfectly fine and can be incredibly healthy. I think our society values romance far too much to the point where it's considered "more than friendship", I believe it is not more or less but merely different.

[@rawrx666]

I'm holding my breath on 4B. As someone familiar with queer and feminist history, this is giving me some big flashbacks to the lesbian-feminist movement of the 70's. While it did good and had good basic principles, it always had sex negative attitudes to begin with and was focused on separation and exclusivity. It also paved the way for our modern TERF movement. I definitely feel that 4B will lead to a lot of that same sex negativity. I also have a hard time believing this is some great radical movement as a lesbian. I basically already live 4B. Also concerned with how white the movement currently is. It doesn't sit right with me that white American women are claiming this movement.

[@jeanettecarnell8933]

Given that pregnancy may be a death sentence now ,then a rapist should be charged with attempted murder,and if heaven forbid she gets pregnant and has complicates and dues,they should be charged with murder,

[@ruthbarr3159]

I've have friends who are absolutely obsessed with "the dream",.They want the kids, the car, the fog and and man. It has ruined their lives, they don't appreciate their lives because they don't have the perfect life. These women aren't religious, just traditional. I really wish these women would look at the alternative because they chase men who bring nothing but drama.

[@youtubefarley776]

I'm glad someone else is a little critical. It could be such a powerful movement, but there's a serious chance it could cause more division. And not just against men, lgbtqia or conservative women, but the women of 4B gatekeeping each other and becoming super toxic and opinionated. I think a different approach is required.

[@ianstrong7140]

I looked up this 4b movement, because I wasn’t sure if it was real 😂. I love this idea, it weeds out the crazies!

[@XCaptianXChaosX]

I can't follow all of 4B, but I'm not married (ironically becaause i believe the origins of marriage is misogynistic) though i do have a partner who supports woman's rights. I have a bio kid and two step kids. I do not plan to have anymore. I will not be buying pink taxed items. I will not be buying items soley targeted at sexualizing women. I will not go to venues and on apps where women are a commodity used to attract men.

[@maggiemacha5552]

Thank you Shaaba for taking on this topic! I have been hearing about it and I was definitely curious about it! I do prefer when you do these types of videos, so yes, more please! I think your experiences make you exactly the person whose perspective I want to hear! Much love ♥️

[@montom9]

For me the 4B movement coming to America while starting on a similar sentiment as the original will be inherently different due to the social and political climate of the US. I view it as more of a decentering on men from my life. I’m BIPOC and queer and it’s about not allowing men to access my body or pollute my peace. It’s a time to cultivate friendships and connections. Men don’t need to be in a relationship with women it empathize with them, and if they can’t learn basic empathy it is not my job to take the burden up to teach them. I will still have male friends but I refuse to male partners currently. And this may sound callous but I honestly do not care about the women the looked at the fire, walked into said fire, and are now wondering why they are burning. They made an informed choice, the wrong one, and now must live with the impact and consequences of that choice. Will I feel bad they are getting harmed by their choice? Perhaps, but ultimately it’s that one they made. It’s not victim blaming. You are not the victim they think they are when they know the convicted felon, rapist, and known creep is morally bankrupt. Everyone told them. They do not get to DARVO us into feeling bad. Ultimately it is their choice. If they decide a man makes them safe and loved good for them. I’m happy they found a partner. I’m not saying I will hate any woman w a man. I personally am choosing not to center them romantically.

[@gcv432hertz]

I believe that those in this 4B movement have found a way to capitalize on men already given up on most of them and now's the perfect time to rush through this open door of oppertunity so they no longer have to be in multiple videos admitting and crying in regret facing the harsh reality of being devastatingly lonely due to pushing all the men out our thier lives in so called independence.

[@venusluv-i1v]

I been 4b for over 10 years. I have no regrets. Now I had a hysterectomy due to issues with my uterus. I don't encourage everyone to go that far, but if push comes to shove get your tubes tied, especially if you don't want children. You can always store eggs for later. It's just a lot safer.

[@tealkerberus748]

Unfertilised eggs don't store well, and fertilised eggs run into legal issues with the person who helped fertilise them .. but if someone gets their tubes tied in their twenties and decides to have a baby in their thirties, their ovaries will still be producing healthy eggs at that age. They just need a medical technician to extract an egg, fertilise it, and place it in their uterus for implantation, because with their tubes tied the egg can't get from ovary to uterus without help. They only need stored or donated eggs if they want a baby in their late forties, and even there, there's great work being done now on in vitro gametogenesis. Once that tech is fully established, we won't have to worry about how age damages both eggs and sperm, because we'll be able to make brand new of both on demand.

[@venusluv-i1v]

@@tealkerberus748 This is good information! Thank you!

[@briannaobrien4419]

Notes on 4B from an internet auntie: 1. Its NOT an all or nothing thing. You do not have to leave a good partner to participate. If s/he/they voted against your life, s/he's/they're not a good partner. 2. Its okay to reconnect with people you previously cut out if through their ACTIONS they've show they've changed. We're all capable of it and its okay to hope someone will, but we can't let that hope blind us to how they are NOW. 3. Its definitely okay to still want to date, but the focus should be on you. By that I mean don't let finding a date become your whole world. Keep focusing on yourself and developing/maintaining/growing/nurturing the relationships you have now. Be very protective of your time and your body, romantic relationships are NOT worth more than other relationships. They're just a different type. 4. 4B is a group/community thing. Don't focus too much on individualization, really hard to do in the west. We're not really raised that way so don't be worried if it takes work. We got a lot to unlearn. 5. DIVEST FROM WHITENESS. We all, but most especially other white women, gotta stop putting whiteness above our humanity. I recommend "Against White Feminism" as a good place to start.

[@ctfddftba]

The S.Korean birth rate was above 1% until the mid-late 2010’s and the 4B movement may have helped drop it below 1%

[@Dave102693]

There’s probably more 4B women in S Korea than even they know, because they have to hide their 4B-ness to avoid harm.

[@terryparker9237]

As a person who is AFAB and Transgender non-binary, I think it is more important to be yourself in times like this. I am accidentally participating as I don't wear makeup and I have had a buzz cut for years. I won't deny that I live in a city that is quite liberal. So far I am safe enough to make bold choices. The Republicans have already been trying to turn people against each other. Maybe we should just hold the problematic people responsible, and not boycott all men. In the end I hope to see people come together, and care more about each other more. I do know that the worst hasn't likely happened yet. It's only the beginning.

[@zgrime4]

One thing I never see people bring up is the prevalence of transmisoginy within the Korean 4B movement. Much like 4Bs sister, political lesbianism, the movements hinge off of bioessentalism which easily leads way to transphobia and more specifically trans misogynistic TERF rhetoric. I'm really happy Shaaba mentioned this in the video, it's refreshing to see someone do research and think before saying it's undoubatedly based and good.

[@sorceress_eye]

Thank you shaaba for your views and opinion on this topic it's very much appreciated 👍🏾

[@myrandarose2883]

Something to think about. Corsetry does not have to be remotely uncomfortable and stifling (not counting 'tight lacing' ). The media movement to talk about corsets as bad was... because misogyny. Women made corsets for women - they were fitted, they offer core and back support. Women were making money by selling corsets and fitting them (couldn't have that, now could we). There are even places to this day that can make corsets that support people with certain back problems like scoliosis which help women rather than act as a method of supression Early fast fashion led to off the peg unfitted mass produced corsets which are often uncomfortable obviously (large garment factories owned by men). There are some great youtube videos detailing the truth about corsets by some very talented content creators. The actresses in films and TV aren't lying per se when they say they were uncomfortable while filming they are wearing off the peg pieces that will often go back to the costumer for another film so can't be fully fitted. Tight lacing these days is much more a fetish scene than the norm, and even then the tight lacing community will be among the first to point out that it's something you work up to over time and if done safely and sensibly is WAAAAAY safer than victorians wanting to discredit corsets wanted to portray. Certain patterns and designs are far more "fashion" than supportive so there are some that can be awkward to sit in, but a well fitted sensible corset should not be maligned as an item of suppression. Check out creators like Abby Cox especially her video: Reacting to the "History of the Corset" || Busting (very weird) corset myths, or Karolina Żebrowska: How Victorian Men Taught Us to Hate Corsets: The Biggest Lie in Fashion History