Religion Harms Society | Peter Atkins | Oxford Union

Peter Atkins argues that religion harms society.
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Peter Atkins opens but mentioning that the one major adverse affect that religion has on society is that it undermines our ability to comprehend. Religiion extinguishes the intellectual thirst of humanity by diminishing our seach for knowledge and asserting the futility of searching for understanding. He highlights that religions tend to pride themselves on analogies especially after the truth has been discovered by scientists. The persuit of a blissful non-existant afterlife inhibits the enjoyment of this one and only life. Peter Atkins concludes by saying that religion undermines the intellect and rationality of people therefore harming society at its core.
Filmed on Thursday 7th November 2013
MOTION: This House Believe That Religion Harms Society.
RESULT: Motion Carried.
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ABOUT PETER ATKINS:
Peter William Atkins FRSC is a British chemist and former Professor of Chemistry at the University of Oxford and a Fellow of Lincoln College. He is a prolific writer of popular chemistry textbooks, including Physical Chemistry, Inorganic Chemistry, and Molecular Quantum Mechanics. Atkins is also the author of a number of popular science books, including Atkins' Molecules, Galileo's Finger: The Ten Great Ideas of Science and On Being.
ABOUT THE OXFORD UNION SOCIETY:
The Union is the world's most prestigious debating society, with an unparalleled reputation for bringing international guests and speakers to Oxford. It has been established for 190 years, aiming to promote debate and discussion not just in Oxford University, but across the globe.

[@WildPhotoShooter]

4:04 "All religions pride themselves in developing analogies normally after the truth has been discovered by scientists". The theists knew he was right , they even applauded him .

[@albertreyes5298]

Even before science discovers, it is already written in the Bible: earth is round - Isaiah 40:22. He stretches the northern skies over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7. fingerprint - Job 37:7. DNA - Psalm 139:13-16. vitamin k - On the 8th day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Luke 2:21. cloning - Genesis 2:22. astronomy - Amos 5:8, Job 38:31, Job 9:9, Job 38:31-32, Psalm 147:4, Isaiah 40:26, Psalm 8:1-9, Isaiah 13:10, Job 38:32, Psalm 8:3, Job 9:1-35, 2 Peter 1:21, Psalm 19:1-14, Job 38:1-41, Revelation 1:1-20, 2Timothy 3:16, 2Timothy 3:1-7,

[@WildPhotoShooter]

@@albertreyes5298 That is wishful thinking. The Bible is not a science book , never was and never will be. You are just imagining things from random words ......the Bible has nothing scientifically specific. "He stretches the northern skies over empty space." that is so naive, what about the southern skies ? The Bible writers probably had not seen the Southern Hemisphere, and didn't know it was there.

[@albertreyes5298]

@@WildPhotoShooter The prophets that wrote the verses of the Bible were possessed by the unerring Holy Spirit. They were told to write it perfectly right no more no less.

[@albertreyes5298]

@@WildPhotoShooter By the way who are you that i must believe in you? An ultracrepidarian! he he he!!! All the presidents of USA believe in the Bible. Only dumb people do not believe in the Bible.

[@albertreyes5298]

@@WildPhotoShooter Job 9:8-11 - God alone stretches out the skies. And He walks on the waves of the sea. It is God who made the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades and the group of stars in the southern sky. More than two thousand years ago, science has not yet been invented by humans. Science was already written in the Bible because God created science. Psalm 111:2 - GREAT ARE THE WORKS OF THE LORD, STUDIED BY ALL WHO DELIGHT IN THEM. It was only in 100 bce that Hipparchus became an astronomer.

[@jackhughman3675]

I read his legendary book on physical chemistry from cover to cover when I was at university. I always wondered who this brilliant author was who could explain the most complex aspects of chemistry like small talk. Now, thanks to a great collection of scientific discoveries and developments, I have the opportunity to see him and hear him talk like he was standing in front of me. How wonderful is that!

[@danlemes1]

is that the "very short introductions" one?

[@truthdefenders4694]

He's an imbecile.

[@justaguy6216]

Whats the title of the book?

[@ZuhongWang]

@@justaguy6216 Literally "Physical Chemistry", currently on its 11th ed

[@albertreyes5298]

Your proud chemistry cannot save your soul and spirit from perdition. Do not waste your mind on that book. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[@polite_as_fuck]

*”All of the religions pride themselves on developing analogies...normally, after the truth has been discovered by scientists.”* Game. Set. Match.

[@almostafa4725]

The first modern scientist was an Iraqi Muslim.

[@Patrick_Bard]

As if scientist could not be religious.

[@TheMindIlluminated]

No. Peter Atkins might be a brilliant chemist, but he really is absolutely clueless on everything else.

[@xerox1959]

At 4:04 his reply to the girl's question Peter Atkins in just one sentence excellent about the madness, corruption and dishonesty of religions :-)

[@6MikeJones9]

he sat that Muslim girl down quick at 4:00. great job! he should have added that its clearly not the word of god if humans constantly need to correct it

[@Nameless-pt6oj]

Well, Satan can interfere. In the desert, he twisted Scripture and used it for evil purposes, thankfully Jesus didn’t fall for it. That’s why people need to correct others.

[@Ergeniz]

@@Nameless-pt6oj If Satan can 'interfere', than god is either complicit or himself subservient to Satan's whims. Its a worthless attempt at rationalizing. For your sake I suggest you stop using it.

[@insidethebrain1975]

The fact is that religious-atheist debates are possible only in non Islamic countries itself shows how bad the religion is.

[@BilalKhan-cq6mn]

Seriously? Imam Abu Hanifa use to have open air debates(not exactly sure in which city) with athiest in the Islamic Caliphates

[@donmak0427]

3:47 Mehrunissa Sajjad: "Within Islam there is a procedure to alter the text according to modern society which relies on logical analogies that are drawn from the real world and the logical process that is followed to reach the conclusion. How then does it block logical interpretations of the world around us?" - Peter Atkins: "All religions pride themselves on developing analogies, normally after the truth has been discovered by scientists." - Sajjad was so pwned that even she had to laugh and clap!

[@banurobymusic]

+Don Saito thank you for clearing that as i didn't understand what she said

[@donmak0427]

KillingTimeIn OpenWorld You're quite welcome.

[@bandisco1621]

Wait, islam talked about some stuff hundreds of years before sciencetist discovered it. Opet the Quran adn you'll see it. poyy

[@roqsteady5290]

@Band No that is just a desperate attempt to reinterpret ambiguous drivel in the light of what we now know. And if you had done that in the past, you'd likely have been decapitated for heresy.

[@Longtack55]

I hope she was enlightened enough to play Devil's Advocate - just for a moment postulating the ridiculousness of religion.

[@kirked007]

What a delightful, calm, rational exposition of the absurdity of faith. Who is a better citizen of the world? This peaceful thoughtful gentleman or a rabid Islamist seeking martyrdom?

[@canwelook]

Or, say, a Northern Ireland Christian bombing people to death for belief in a different flavour of Christianity.

[@MichaelSharpBLACKDRUMMIKE]

evils of religion are real. we need to be brave enough to face it.

[@michaelmarshall9132]

Evils of atheists are just as bad .

[@geniusofmozart]

Christopher Hitchens would have been great on this topic.

[@pimwiersinga8822]

So is mr. Atkins.

[@sosalpha]

the worship of christopher..... His arguments in his books are regurgitated strawmen, and somebody seeking pity because of their childhood *Hitch-22 Memoir*

[@comicsans3845]

Hitchens wasn't an atheist, he was just a degenerate.

[@geniusofmozart]

@@comicsans3845 No: Hitchens was against the degeneracy and depravity of religion.

[@comicsans3845]

@@geniusofmozart He was a drug addict and died of alcoholism.

[@luca920]

Haha, Tariq Ramadan who sits in the front row is now being charged for rape (two times). Imagine my shock.

[@tantiwahopak101]

@MichaelKingsfordGray what? Hahaha

[@truthdefenders4694]

I met that rapist in Ca.. The Lecture organizers attacked me physically because they did not want me asking him question, I did finally get to him but the jihadists had done their work and succeeded in wasting my time so I didn't get a chance to question him.

[@truthdefenders4694]

4 times, two more came forward.

[@canwelook]

In October 2020 he was charged with the rape of a fifth woman.

[@ziqharun]

Christopher Hitchens could have solo'd the whole opposition.

[@pimwiersinga8822]

Brilliant -- and so true, mr. Atkins!

[@havenbastion]

Interpretation IS the heart of religious belief and precisely the central religious problem; not in how it is interpreted but in that it Must be interpreted. Religion is always contingent on human frailty. Moreover, the common technology of all religions is dogma, which requires faith, which is unjustified belief, which inevitably produces results which are arbitrarily swayed by public opinion.

[@jujumen]

@4:05 what a sweet pull over counter punch by Atkins!

[@Aeterus]

Maybe I'm a bit biased but I like it ,no arrogance very diplomatic and made good points.

[@PhilipMcAdam]

This is another very talented speaker and was very able to put down a direct challenge very quick and skilfully. Wonderful content very direct and very down to earth.

[@PhilipMcAdam]

What a superbly presented argument. And in middle of the presentation shot down a challenge with such eloquence.

[@nivekrevilo9968]

These conversations are what we should be more focused on on as a society. more questions need to be property investigated. We have been lied to our whole life about EVERYTHING even the smallest things that one would think would not matter. So to hear these arguments does not surprise me at all. power corrupts power .... absolutely

[@ladipupooyeleye9268]

I vote for the motion I want a society based on rational thinking, not conflicting religious fanaticism

[@Katalyzt]

Perfectly said/done Peter Atkins. ᵔᴥᵔ ★★★★★ P.S. Yet, another debate won by Atheists, and/or the non-religious. I see a trend budding at Oxford Union. ;O) Katalyzt

[@beerababasaheb1258]

Can one find a transcript of this?

[@MrAlexbreak]

Brilliant

[@FinaleGoofups]

Brilliant? It's just a litany of unevidenced claims perpetually spread by mass control of electronic media. I love the homage to the "priests" of atheism in this thread.

[@MrAlexbreak]

FinaleGoofups Its sad, how people lose identity and individuality with dogma of other man and think its their own:( I feel sorry for you

[@FinaleGoofups]

MrAlexbreak I'm an atheist. I think this guy failed to prove his point with evidence and, rather, catered to the bias of the crowd. One person defending religion at this "debate" actually brought a scientific study indicating that religion produced psychologically healthier societies.

[@rabsputin]

FinaleGoofups you're an apologist, and it's a debate, meaning there's no need to present evidence but instead a convincing argument, which he did. "One person defending religion at this "debate" actually brought a scientific study indicating that religion produced psychologically healthier societies." name the study, its author and who paid for it to be carried out and we'll determine whether it was impartial.

[@kayem3824]

He speaks in the weird way of that cult place too.

[@1toniah]

Agree 100%

[@ishikawa1338]

It did nothing but ruin my life , I was out of it for 15 yrs then family drive it back into me and it harmed me thinking I was bad yet no I wasn’t

[@johntindell9591]

He is a grandmaster

[@Rico-Suave_]

Watched all of it

[@havenbastion]

5 is called opportunity cost, and is typically under-represented in arguments.

[@mtbiker4life918]

Since I stopped going to church, and really let go of religion whenever I hear a sermon now online it's scary the claims they make are legal and people buy into them. Its like they put people in this feel good trance.

[@jiminyougotnojams6865]

People speaking against religion: The comment section: this is brilliant

[@darrowgreen6367]

You say that as if its a bad thing

[@toddr3644]

@@darrowgreen6367 It is.

[@darrowgreen6367]

@@toddr3644 how so?

[@mannysilver211]

@@toddr3644 No, no it is not, and you cannot prove otherwise because you would’ve done so by now.

[@Detector1977]

in other news 1+1=2....

[@hyunchulshim3195]

If religion had been in its full power, the question made in the middle would not have been possible at all.

[@spencergee6948]

A brilliant argument. I wonder who or what he continually looked up at to his right.

[@cnault3244]

I think it was the timer for his 6 minutes.

[@spencergee6948]

@@cnault3244 Thank you. That makes sense (but he was looking from the start). In the great scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.

[@TiltedWatcher]

@@spencergee6948 He might have been checking if the timer already started

[@hybridhazza]

God

[@christopherhamilton3621]

@@hybridhazzaMore likely the time to see when the pub would be opening…🤪

[@user-pw6ei2mn7x]

Wonder man. Thank you

[@mvidale1]

Dear god. That Muslim woman got wrecked. The shear brilliance from Atkins is awesome.

[@canwelook]

@DC Publishing. When you copy and paste the exact same words into multiple threads like this, it makes you look incapable of original thought, and perhaps a bot.

[@PhilipMcAdam]

Listen to this most eloquent intelligent by a very powerful orator. Watch the challenge being rebuffed so eloquently.

[@tedwalker1370]

Religion excludes non believers unless you except their beliefs. This is why the world cannot live together with out conflict.

[@samuelmachale9598]

this guy looks like the pope, or the high sparrow from game of thrones

[@Ragd0ll1337]

Samuel Machale ironically espousing the opposite view to the High Sparrow's you might add

[@ms.arzani8789]

3:45

[@jlinus7251]

He sounds like the person in a flight that tells you how to put your seat belt on. It's kind of funny. On another note good argument. Love it

[@lrvogt1257]

Believing things that aren't true leads to bad decisions.

[@johnbrown6189]

The girl that stands up at 3:47 with a point of information with a confronting anger that is a reaction typical when you question a persons religious beliefs. There is no need to defend facts in this way. Facts can stand intense scrutiny religious belief can't.

[@cinderbeserk]

I always laugh when a believer tells me that a god cannot be perceived by humanity, and then proceeds to tell me all kinds of ways that suppose god works and does things.

[@toni4729]

I think the thumbs up have it.

[@jerrygarciaisgod4409]

Every theist must ask themselves why their religions promise eternal bliss or torment but only in the afterlife! Would not, could not, should not an omniscient ominpotent creator be able to do much more???

[@johnellis7614]

Ninth Commandment reads: "Do not be deceitful to a neighbor, your witness that of a liar." Plato and Socrates wrote: "A lie is permissible, if it is beneficial."

[@spanishkey2002]

All religions are deceitful because they feed lies on the existence of GOD without evidence.

[@blossomx1804]

Why can't ppl with coughs simply leave?

[@logic52]

What religions (superstitions/fairytales) serve for? Absolutely for nothing! And how many problems religions cause? Absolutely infinites!

[@aspetm3846]

Great to have a people like Peter Atkins,I hope some day human is living in peaceful society without religion. As Molana (RUMI) great Persian intellect and poet said,every new religion come with bloodshed and that is fact in history of religion!

[@michaelmarshall9132]

@@GetZapped-Helsinki1974 I bet he's wishing he'd believed in Jesus now

[@michaelmarshall9132]

@@GetZapped-Helsinki1974 that's your opinion and you're entitled to it as I am mine . I'd sooner have my belief than yours .

[@johnthijm5113]

6 minutes is short to protect an argument and he waisted one minute of it.

[@tedgrant2]

I had a nice motion this morning.

[@sharkamov]

*'Religion' was invented the day the first conman met the first fool. Fact.*

[@anikettripathi7991]

Religions doesn't harm any one. It's our clever narratives based interpretation harms. Religion tells life is struggle we cleverly manipulated struggle means fighting and killing. Religion said give sacrifice we cleverly interpreted as take sacrifice of life from poor animal and enjoy the feasting. So it's intrests/orientation of societies .without religion also we have inclinations to harm and destroy own species.

[@LexingtonWells]

That girl in the purple dress wouldn't shut up huh?

[@christianvennemann9008]

I think she interrupted David Silverman as well. I love Atkins's simple yet brutal response. He totally rekt her!

[@LexingtonWells]

C. Venom Yes he did!

[@mrloop1530]

I actually like, that she just smiles and applauds at his brushing off of her religious stupidity.

[@tajulislam0172]

Phone

[@MichaelSharpBLACKDRUMMIKE]

religion undervalues life by saying life last forever.....even if u die!!???

[@god8020]

Yes

[@riasasselman4528]

Yup, their argument is sometimes: without faith, how is there meaning to life?

[@georgegordner7795]

.

[@alanmirell7448]

We are like any other life on this planet.

[@toddr3644]

No, we aren't.

[@kokosnotenXD]

to become a toad, or worse, a woman....sjw be like: TTTTRIIIGGGEEEREREEEED

[@blueromeo1974]

The Doctor yeah best coment 😂

[@stevehoy9282]

He gave a lot of opinion without any examples to reference his statements. Not a thorough academic approach at all.

[@canwelook]

And you provided no counter-examples.

[@sosalpha]

Atkins is closed minded. Before I get attacked by dense people. It was Atkins whom recently said on the podcast Unbelievable that even if physics written in the OT or NT could be factually tested, he would still be closed minded. I prefer to be open minded and listen to all sides. Science is the beginning and we have a long ways to go.

[@sosalpha]

Cowardly fake name? What part of sosalpha (special operation squad life) is in any form, cowardly or fake? I am not snobbish, I don't make petty attacks, nor contempt, as you blatantly demonstrated. You must have went to an Ivy League school. Thanks for the English tips. No real counter argument and none of my points were addressed.... You've created 2 points of Nothing and demonstrated 0.

[@canwelook]

I get it. If people dare to 'attack' what you say, they are by definition 'dense people'. How open minded of you.

[@electricdreamer]

who is he talking to? someone upstairs?

[@yuriluskov]

Lol

[@darrowgreen6367]

Y..yes there is an upstairs

[@SoCuriousOfIt]

And religion.

[@tajulislam0172]

Phone lagda

[@michaelmarshall9132]

Religion does . Jesus Christ doesn't.

[@PURPLE_SHADE_SMOOTHIE]

Like 596. Bernie-Ojeda 2020

[@jayd4ever]

I think it depends on the religion but I think most religions help make better a society

[@god8020]

Why

[@canwelook]

Evidence?

[@toddr3644]

Funny, my experience shows the exact opposite. Nothing transforms man so profoundly and brings about such growth as a personal relationship with Christ. Nothing.

[@JanetStarChild]

Are you referring to how it takes religion to turn an otherwise good person into a monster? That _is_ quite the transformation.

[@canwelook]

Every 5 year old knows the power of a personal relationship with an imaginary friend. Then they grow up.

[@FinaleGoofups]

I vote against the motion.

[@rosbell5113]

Don't get religion, that is man made, mixed up with Christianity, which is from God, they are poles apart.

[@christiandekker219]

WELL, THEN I GUESS YOU WON'T MIND SPENDING THE NEXT TRILLION YEARS BEING IN TERRIFYING TORMENT IN HELL, WHICH WILL HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU DON'T LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST, OUR GREAT GOD & SAVIOR FROM HELL AND THE CREATOR OF THE INFINITE UNIVERSE AND US, HIS EARTHLY CREATURES IN PERFECT HAPPINESS FOR ALL ETERNITY, IMMORTALS AND HEAVENLY SONS AND DAUGHTERS

[@canwelook]

You do realise how clueless it makes you look when you get caps lock stuck on?

[@arunshukla7322]

He is right if he is referring to Abrahmic religions. If he means all religions including Eastern religions, he is a damn fool because he knows and understands nothing about other religions.

[@clementgavi7290]

'Religions have one hugely important adverse effect on society. They undermine respect of one feature that distinguish from other animals, our ability to comprehend' Peter Atkins I will say religions does not undermine that ability to comprehend. Religions remind the mind that comprehend that it only and always comprehend what it is offer to his comprehension. In other words, from the fact that it has the capacity to comprehend it doesn't follows it creates the objects of his comprehension. Religions remind the human mind that there is a Mystery the ability of the mind cannot by its own totally fathom. Religions remind the mind that there is a sphere beyond the sphere of rationality. Religions does not harm society. The exploitation, the misuse of the religions harm society. For instance if you give a cup of wine to a child in cradle instead of a cup of milk, the problem isn't the wine per se, the problem is the use of wine. Religions make society whole, they complete society. The feeling at Church, the ambiance indicate to the mind religions are good for society. The preaches of Priests, Pastors inculcate goodness. God is good and religions are about God. Religions doesn't harm society, human beings in exploiting religions, harm society. In other words, when religions are used not for the glory of God but for the glory and domination of human beings over other human beings, human beings then defile what is sacred.

[@SoCuriousOfIt]

I also meant to infer.that both science and are bad and good to society

[@jf_sebastian8387]

How is the search for knowledge and understanding every harmful to society?Also, what can religion contribute to society that can't be done by non-religion?

[@SoCuriousOfIt]

Well, if the search for knowledge means are capitalism is unsustainable and will cause our demise a bit sooner then yes. You have to remember even in a democracy, it is govern by a bunch of people. If they are poorly regulated, which they are then they will block knowledge and use religion. This is our society. Well western atleast. Before we judge the negative effects of religion and ignore the current unity and stability it can give we should fix our society by facing the double standars and hypocrits cause right now there are too many muslism, christian and non religious who get spoon fed what they are thought to think about their culture and religion. You know why? Because religion in its honest form is mendable and adaptable to an acceptable degree. The current mainstream ones in the uk, usa not so much. Constant judging and seeking approval rather than taking their religion or culture andthink about it. Cause honestly this so called western isnt that much better off anyway. But well. This me mostly rambling. My main point is tackle the biggest and most responsible issue first before getting off topic and discussing opion like this guy is doing. Have a nice day.

[@SoCuriousOfIt]

The biggest issue i meant was classicm

[@iraqiman1854]

astrology::"لا الشمس ينبغي لها ان تدرك القمر و لا الليل سابق النهار و كل في فلك يسبحون"this verses in "Holy Quran " mentions that the earth and the sun rotate in orbits and they will never catch each others.. how could Mohammad knows that before 1400 years ago??????

[@iraqiman1854]

ShockOfGayness you are nothing to be mentioned !! you are not even counted as a human been!! loser are always jealous of big men, Mohammad is great man!! Mohammad is like the sun that turn the darkness away. Mohammad is been sent to make all people equal no matter what race or color or gender they are, but anyway you are nothing but pervert, and everybody know gays are rejected and are disgusting, and I am totally sure if Mohammad is alive now, he will unfortunately forgive you, because he is a mercy to all human been. honestly you are so pathetic, get yourself changed as long as there is time, before you die and you get buried as a gay, shame on you even to participate, you do not belong to this place, no one respect your opinion

[@mrloop1530]

+Iraqi Man Who the hell cares what some random guy thought of homosexuality 1400 years ago? Try to follow the developments in morality instead of living by the overwhelmingly lacking morals of the Iron Ages. Get your act together man, you will feel so much better. I promise you, because I was brought up with sky-heros as well, and only just got rid of the virus a few years ago.

[@ShockOfGayness]

AntiReligious you are far greater than I. All I can do is ad hominem attacks.

[@mvidale1]

ShockOfGayness I do not fucking blame you man (or woman). They swear that their books are scientific which pisses me off so much. Science (even though it stemmed from these religions- only game in town at the time) along with rational people have changed things for the better and still the want their fucked up Middle Eastern Doctrines to take credit for it. The stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

[@kokosnotenXD]

do you wanna know how? 300 ad was the golden period for the middle east, the center of intelligence so to speak, was in baghdad. did you know that two thirds of all the stars with names have arabic names? the numerals we use in a day to day life are called arabic numerals. they were leading the frontier in science . so sure they knew that the earth and sun "rotate" in orbit because of science.

[@MikeJRe2ipi]

I wonder what to make of this really as some atheists make science/atheism a religion in itself. Richard Dawkins a case in point...

[@cbrusharmy]

Read more Dawkins

[@god8020]

Re-read the definition of relligion

[@canwelook]

Religion = belief in a god. Atheism = lack of belief in a god. i.e. The EXACT opposite of religion.

[@bkbland1626]

Religion, as a concept, is just dumb. Keep your magic zombie.

[@TheMediamj]

“Washi woshi “language of the Bible. That’s the expression you have used at the conversation with Hugh Ross. Or you never red the Bible or you are the most primitive human being living on the earth, which simply is so stubborn to admit divine things, exactly as the evil spirit described in the Scriptures. No really intelligent man should ever Tabake you seriously.

[@Sgman1991]

Interestingly, the single most important thing for humanity, namely, purpose and meaning, is untouchable by science. To say that science is the only way to find truth is to say that meaning and purpose doesn't exist.

[@Sgman1991]

Rolf Leseratz You say I have an imaginary friend, and I say you have an imaginary purpose. Note what purpose actually means. It's the reason that something exists, and is an inherent quality of an object. The purpose of a watch might include telling time, looking fashionable, or any combination of things. Those purposes are inherent within the object and are given by the maker of the object. You might use the watch as a paper weight, but in doing so you are using it for something different than it's intended purpose. An object without a creator has no purpose. It simply exists, nothing more and nothing less. To say that you have more purpose than a rock is nothing more than yourself imagining some sort of self-importance that simply doesn't exist. To say that you give yourself purpose is nonsensical.

[@Sgman1991]

Sgman1991 Everything I've said even assumes a non-deterministic universe. If you believe in a completely deterministic universe, which I assume you do, than the entire idea of free will makes no sense in itself, therefore making the idea of "giving" yourself purpose make even less sense. Who can do the "giving" if you, as a person, don't even exist?

[@Sgman1991]

Rolf Leseratz We'll have to agree to disagree on what gives purpose. You seem to say that using an object gives it purpose, and I say that creating an objective gives it purpose. There is one point we seem to agree on though: that intentionality and sentience are necessary for purpose to exist. This point fits directly into my third comment. You seem to agree that things don't have purpose inherently (a rock has no purpose within itself), but that things are given purpose by a sentient being who uses them, but there's an issue with that. If the universe is deterministic, then intentionality is illusory. It isn't real. You don't decide the purpose of an object any more than a hill decide's that a rock's purpose is to roll down it. Both you and hill are acting on unguided physical processes. You may be more complex, but complexity in no way necessarily leads to intentionality. You are propping yourself up as something special, something non-deterministic. I see no basis for such a human-centric view within a deterministic universe.

[@Sgman1991]

Rolf Leseratz Your response leads me to believe that you don't know what deterministic means. You being biological is irrelevant to whether you are deterministic. "Biology" is just a term of human classification for a certain type of physical interaction. It depends on the same laws of physics as the rock rolling down a hill. Trying to mock me only displays your own willful ignorance. By disagreeing with the idea of a deterministic universe you're going against people like Stephen Hawking.

[@Sgman1991]

Rolf Leseratz I'll let any other reader that happens to come across this discussion decide from this point on. I think I've made my point clear enough for any thinking person. Have a good night. :) Just so you know, I have a degree in electrical engineering. Based on this discussion I'm sure I've had more scientific education than you have, as if it mattered in the first place.

[@johnbarrett3674]

Grandstanding at its best. Speaking big words and definitions don't hold fact. I've never heard someone say so much, say so little. I love a good debater. But this guy ain't it

[@god8020]

@@Floridacoastwriter Cute

[@devinptacek9122]

Religion brings stability and unification

[@hybridhazza]

Examples please

[@canwelook]

Evidence?

[@tajulislam0172]

Phone

[@joel230182]

I vote against the motion.

[@Abradacamera]

I vote for it. What's your further point?

[@joel230182]

Abradacamera The idea that religion itself harms society doesn't even make sense. The real harm is to be found in specific ideologies, not in the general concept of religion. In the same way, for example, atheism itself is not harmful to society, but certain atheistic ideologies are indeed harmful. -Religiosity is harmful, religion is not. -Bigotry is harmful, religion is not. -Dogma is harmful, religion is not. -Forced indoctrination is harmful, religion is not. The simple believe in a creator entity, the believe in objective morality: humbleness, compassion, honesty, forgiveness , etc. , the practice of worship was symbol of the gratitude of our existence, all of that, isn't harmful at all. Au contraire, I think religion can be very helpful.

[@Shangori]

Joel Rivera Mind telling me what your definition for religion is?

[@luciusseneca4380]

Joel Rivera You seem to be an ignorant prick....Bigotry is the idea of being better then anyone else.. and religion people are like that. so a Christian thinks to be better then Jews and Muslims, Islam is worst as it teaches to be bigots or burn in hell...Forced indoctrination is harmful and ALL Religion do it.;.. other wise religious parents would give there children a choice to be a member of there religion ...

[@joel230182]

Shangori religion is a hard concept to define. If you're referring to the kinds of practices found in organized religions, then, ok, I agree with you. The problem is that I consider myself a religious person and I don't hold any dogmas or closed minded doctrines, neither I condemn homosexuality. I believe in God and I believe in worship and objective morals/purpose ...I have a religion that doesn't fit the common definition of religion of atheists/anti-theists/anti-religion people. Religion is not so easily definable. What's next?