“Religion is a great play style” | TierZoo on religion and science

[@brycengledhill8799]

I don't fault people for beliefs, I fault organizations for their practices. Drew made that point quite well

[@SliceySlicer]

Everything is determined, so why fault at all?

[@solarpellets]

You can do both, the beliefs of the individual uphold the actions of the organization. Not to mention the fact that a lot of Christian beliefs are outright harmful.

[@rainbowsorceress2082]

​@@SliceySlicer because it is in the better interest of all to create a better society in which there are less bad things happening and less bad people in general. You can only do that by identifying the cause of a problem and fixing it, which is what i assume was meant by "fault organizations for their practices"

[@elilane8627]

I can’t change the mind of a whole organization and I definitely can’t change their practices, but I can try to show people how faith leads to idolization and can systematically shut down your rational thinking, and also point out how many religious organizations are known to protect pedophiles and other types of abusers. If there were no believers there would be no religion

[@brycengledhill8799]

@@solarpellets this is true, I meant that as a general assessment, but in more specific assessments there are quite harmful beliefs and, indeed, believers that play an equal role in perpetuating harm within a religious tradition

[@amalieselsmark644]

"I don't know but I'd love to learn more about it" is such an awesome attitude to have about anything, especially the possibility of religious elephants

[@somersetcace1]

I used to be pretty anti-theist as a teenager especially. However, after many years of discussion, debate and plain ole personal experience with theists, I've softened quite a bit on that. I still believe organized religion is more harmful than helpful in most cases, but individual theists or even small fellowships don't bother me. I believe the meaning of life is to give life meaning. If I then mandate how others should go about doing that, I'd be a hypocrite. In the end, so long as you're not victimizing anyone, whatever gets you out of bed is okay by me.

[@Staladus]

Same here honestly

[@MsMiDC]

Hate the game, not the player.

[@GRAHFXENO]

I was a very, outspoken and vocal anti-theist in high-school in the 90s, but now that I'm in my 40 and I've spent decades learning that 99% of theists are just like me, I've stopped being so darn aggressive about my Atheism. Hell, I've volunteered at Churches and made friends with a local pastor

[@mutawi]

While commendable, it's dangerous to have large quantities of people with terrible epistemology walking around a democratic society. That's the case regardless of what kinda nonsense people cling to for bad reasons. Religion, however, is generally taught to people purposefully. It's targeted and marketed to disengage critical thinking and cognitive flexibility. This does not include all religions, since some are more like philosophies than religion (in my understanding). I'm not a stoic, but I don't consider stoicism dangerous, nor do think their perspective delusional. I'd never consider saving a stoic from stoicism, because I don't think they're being maliciously nor ignorantly deceived from childhood or preyed upon by ruthless scammers.

[@Fountain__]

This is kindness and I respect you so much for this. As a theist, I feel hated and judged harshly by atheists who believe I’m stupid or I support genocide. And when I try to defend my faith, or simply say that’s not what I believe in, they ignore me or double down on insults. I pray for kindness and understanding like this for both sides.

[@MedlifeCrisis]

Awesome to see you two chat! Two creators I really admire. I had a chuckle at the fact that I also asked Patch’s permission to make a tier list video (about organs!) before I made mine, like this mf is gawddamn emperor of tier lists. ALL HAIL PATCH OF S TIER!

[@TierZoo]

If I'd known you were gonna put an organ as worthless as the Thymus in B-tier I might have answered differently

[@MedlifeCrisis]

@@TierZoo you’re gonna hate my next one…

[@jgig1329]

@MedlifeCrisis Finally putting sebaceous glands in S where they belong?

[@astronics]

I see your comment on almost every video I watch and every time I get happier, great work man! ​@@MedlifeCrisis

[@stanleyhyde8529]

I would have been happy to listen to you guys chat for hours. You don't often get to hear people have noncombative conversations about religion like this. People with opposite views giving honest answers to hard questions is criminally rare.

[@stanleyhyde8529]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 So. He did that in the name of a religion that gives instructions on the people you're allowed to take on as slaves. And endorses the total destruction of your enemies. Men, women and children. Except the girls, you can keep them for yourselves. 🖕 Hard pass

[@delongjohnsilver7235]

The main issue I have with bringing religion to hard times is that it can be exploitative if the belief holder is not careful. It’s in a similar vein to upselling a coffin to a grieving family, or asking someone out when they’re at a low point, and I don’t think that’s something discussed enough in religious community outreach programs from my experience. If it’s not centering the person’s needs first, but instead preaching first, then you’re getting into morally dubious territory.

[@Forever_Muffin]

That's a big issue i have with religion in general. I understand people have different coping mechanisms, and each one chooses what to believe in, what gives them purpose in life, and so on. But i get worried when people say religion is the only thing that keeps them from breaking down or doing morally wrong things, because i feel there's someone behind profiting from that. It's easy to manipulate people when they are low, and if they hold onto whatever rope you're offering them when they are at their worst, they'll be terrified of letting go, no matter how harmful that rope is for them or others. And it's something that applies to anything, really, not just religion, but gambling, substance abuse, pagan beliefs, whatever is that people will hold on to instead of facing a problem they may have. And that's how you get other people profiting from it, from people selling cigarettes, drugs and alcohol, to people selling crystals, promoting MLMs, and so on. It's can be devastating to see someone you love fall for any of these, claiming it's their only way to live life, when you just know that's not going to help them at all, and you know they only think that because the wrong person found them at the rigth time to profit from them. It's awful.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

Yeah, this bothers me. In order to get meals or shelter in my city homeless people are forced to attend a sermon. What is “outreach” to some, strikes me as exploiting people when they are at their psychologically most fragile, and Quid pro quo, conditional love.

[@8114梦见]

I feel similarly. My great aunt died this past Christmas, and I recently went to her funeral. It was a good time to celebrate her life and the wonderful lady she was, but the pastor at the ceremony really miffed me. He pivoted halfway through his speech to evangelize and tell all in attendance that the only way they can get through this time of grief is with Jesus. He went on like this for more than half the time he spoke. It really left a sour taste in my mouth. People grieve and heal differently and turning a tragic event into your evangelizing playground is just sick to me.

[@haukenot3345]

I'm a pastor, and one of the most important lessons I learned about pastoral care was to prioritize listening. The story of Job is commonly cited as an example: The first thing Jobs friends do isn't lecturing him, but sitting down quietly and sharing his pain. There is a lot of scholarly discussion in that book, but the first impulse isn't to talk, but to listen. All the issues you raised are routinely adressed in pastoral training, at least in my (fairly liberal) European context. Of course, what people actually end up doing may sometimes differ from what they are taught.

[@delongjohnsilver7235]

@@haukenot3345 I feel that. It may be a cultural/denominational difference, but in my neck of the woods (deep south of the US) outreach is framed as a mission statement because of Jesus’ command instead of helping someone because they need help. It often results in a combination of putting Jesus ahead of the neighbor and/or a form of soft moral supremacy. Not exactly this, but it often has a feeling of “you’re in this situation because you are bad and thus be grateful I, the Christian, am here to help you. To repay this debt, you must pay with your time in service.” Its the root of it is an us and them, where the person being aided feels like the them, so therefore we must make them the us.

[@Saezimmerman]

Appreciate the intro conversation about the assumptions that Drew originally made as well as TierZoo remarking that he held back his snarky “toast” comment. The internet can bring people together, but the interactions we have with each other over text/comment (especially early on) don’t have the benefit of reading non-verbal cues. It’s easy to misread each other.

[@thomasfplm]

True, that was a very interesting thing to know what passed through people's minds and things like that.

[@supme7558]

Sound like non verb cues are very often wrong and over observed by some

[@feedingravens]

TierZoo seems to be a rather "european" christian, one who sees religion as a means for social interaction, a part of the culture, and as a means to shape your OWN thinking, a guide to make you a better person, to give you a gut feeling of hope, a positive attitude - and not as an excuse for judging others, to declare youself as supreme. Here in Germany a catholic theologian can chat with an asttrophysicist (our "Neil deGrasse Tyson) on TV and freely accept Big Bang and Evolution and that the Bible mainly consists of myths of other cultures - and is NOT excommunicated.

[@Vael221]

Honestly though, it's things like these that make it hard for me to buy the idea that religion is all that helpful in general (or at least, in the "special" way it is so often described). Like, I believe Community is valuable and helpful to people and that religion is an easy an convenient way to foster that, but it always seems like the more religion is used as as the excuse and then gets out of the way, the better off everyone is. It always seems like the communities that put too much focus on the religion that end up toxic and harmful both to members and outsiders.

[@electricpizza5774]

None of those views contradict Catholic theology. The Big Bang and Evolution are taught in Catholic schools. The Catholic Church also doesn't claim that everything in the bible literally happened. Besides, these days excommunication is rare and is usually reserved for really extreme cases.

[@LPVince94]

​@@electricpizza5774 How long did it take for the catholic church to rehabilitate Galileo again? 1992? I would say that they tend to seem a little behind the times when it comes to accepting scientific discoveries which contradict their dogma. 😂 I am also not sure if the current pope still thinks that condoms are of the devil or if he's cool with those as of right now.

[@HenrythePaleoGuy]

Definitely. It can easily be substituted for a lot of other, more productive things.@@Vael221

[@urphakeandgey6308]

I think the average American Christian is a lot more moderate than you're giving them credit for. The media just sells you a more extreme image because it's sensationalist. The average American Christian would probably be more or less exactly like what you described. Especially if we're including self-proclaimed cultural Christians that don't truly follow the faith, which I'd argue most Christians in the USA are nowadays. I knew a guy that used to always profess how he was Christian. I asked him "do you accept Jesus as your lord and Savior?" He just gave me a confused look and said "idk, I just believe in God so I'm Christian." So a ton of so-called "Christians" in the USA are basically just LARPing.

[@buggytheprophet1017]

I never thought that my first time seeing Tierzoo’s face would be in this channel, but Im not complaining this is amazing!

[@Arkouchie]

My first time seeing his face was in a magic: the gathering gameplay on Tolarian Community College

[@emmanuel1337]

Very nice and wholesome conversation. I honestly prefer these types of exchanges over debates and things of such nature -- of course, debates don't need to be really heated and can be done with a lot of respect and poise, but an amicable conversation that is less structured just seems to put everybody more at ease and to instigate more intellectual honesty by its very format (unless you're dealing with a dishonest person -- those will just take advantage of everything and rules being put in place are the ideal).

[@mainecoonmami]

I always have empathy for Christians not only because childhood indoctrination is real and I used to be one, but that human beings find love in different places. If they don’t oppress or vote to oppress other people, I don’t mind. That’s more political than religious.

[@SliceySlicer]

Having empathy for Christians and discouraging their silly beliefs aren't mutually exclusive.

[@bluetoad2668]

​@@SliceySlicersilly is not so bad but often those beliefs are dangerous or spread ignorance and bigotry.

[@SliceySlicer]

I agree. What's your point? @@bluetoad2668

[@brianh9358]

I left the Southern Baptist church in the early 2000s. I disagree with most of my family members on both religious and political issues. I would say that I have empathy for them, but it has been sorely tested. It has been made much more difficult by their joining the cult of MAGA. The toxic mix of religion, Christian nationalism, bigotry, and hatred has made it very difficult indeed to feel empathy. As individuals on their own I find most of them tolerable to an extent, but when that cult mentality takes over they are simply dangerous. They deny reality in just about every way possible.

[@joemungus6063]

@@brianh9358 cope liberal

[@sidcollinsiv]

TierZoo's down to earth understanding of his faith and it's role in the world is perhaps the most effective piece of apologetics I have ever seen.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

I tend to agree! My Christian friends irl are like this too and it’s great

[@TierZoo]

Thank you!

[@raya.p.l5919]

​@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic Jesus power evidence ❤ Here yr proof. Warning it last 7 days an 7 hours.

[@NA-vz9ko]

Tbh, anything not riddled with dishonesty, stupidity, and callousness is better than most Christian apologetics.

[@bigatomicsloth3369]

@@TierZoo You keep telling yourself that your faith is real, you're ridiculous.

[@ashurean]

I was raised in a particularly religious household, went to this really insulated Baptist church that stoked my father's ego and exacerbated my mother's mental issues, resulting in an incredibly hostile home life for me. I moved away from the church in my early teens because I just never felt any connection, and away from religion entirely when I was 15. I've spent the past almost decade deconverting myself, unlearning problematic ways of thinking and healing from the reflexive fear response that had been drilled into me. During this period of time, I think it would be fair to say I was anti-religion. It's only recently that I've been able to start untangling my thoughts and feelings and have reached the point where I no longer feel the need to define myself in opposition to religion, instead focusing solely on developing in alignment with the things I do care about. While I'm no longer anti-religion, and feel comfortable engaging with religious subjects on an academic level, I would say that I am more focused on contesting the idolatry aspect now. And this reaches beyond organized religion, it's the same kind of thinking that leads people to keep investing in crypto even after they've been scammed repeatedly, or lets them continue supporting a celebrity, billionaire, or politician even when they do something that directly harms them. It's a complicated subject that I only really have the wherewithal to identify and engage with now that I have some distance from being subject to that kind of thought process myself. But what I do know is that I despise how it's viewed as acceptable for these powerful people to encourage this, despite how vulnerable it makes people.

[@mediocreMorpheus7795]

I pretty much had the same experience almost down to the T. I wasn't able to leave my home till my late 20's but I certainly made up for it by deprogramming myself with the help of many supportive friends and therapy, I've come to the same conclusion that's although I don't feel I need religious dogma in my life, I certainly am able to engage with people who do, and talk about it on academic levels, and I've certainly noticed the parallels between all the fanbases you mentioned as ''substitute religions". Being able to identify what are genuinely my own thoughts and perspectives on matter instead of ''thinking what I've told to believe" is probably the greatest achievement I've made and as an adult aside from becoming a father. I think there is a good amount of people out there that have experienced what you and I have, and its almost like a commonplace experience. I believe a lot of our parents suffered from a lack of self worth and purpose and they filled it with religion and it's the only things they saw that gave them stability because Christianity especially is such a strong bedrock, that from their perspective, "How could it not work if it's been around for so long''. I've rambled on too long, I really just wanted to say that I totally agree and share your experience.

[@pedrovargas1380]

That was also my childhood to a T except my dad is an orthodox Christian convert. I grew out of that by going to community college and joining the army and went through a period of deprogramming after the army and to this day I too am skeptical of government and religion.

[@scorpiovenator_4736]

Thats rough buddy

[@TrueShepardN7]

I am a christian and subscriber of Tier zoo and i love this collab with my favorite skeptic youtuber. Drew you are such a great man and in many ways you are act more like a christian then many christians i have seen. I am 100% behind you in your efforts to fight religious extremism.

[@zerog5551]

This was a fun one! On the subject of being asked "do you believe in free will", I think a good way to get somewhere is to ask the questioner "do you think free will is different than agency and if so how"? That way you can see what specific flavor of "free will" you're really getting at, or is it really just about the ability to make decisions.

[@andrewharrison8436]

I think the words of the question make it impossible to answer. Do you have agency? - yes - that seems a better question. Sometimes the question could be: Do you have moral responsibility? Hence the different legal treatment of children and those with diminished responsibility.

[@archangelarielle262]

Free will is incoherent under any defintion. Thoughts are either determined by prior causes (principle of sufficient reason/ cause and effect) in which you do not control them, or they are random (quantum indeterminacy)/ a mixture of both, in either case you do not control them. Every particle (further divisible to the wave function or possibly strings) in the universe, obeys the laws of physics, and your brain which constitutes of matter is no different; following the 4 fundamental forces, in which you do not control that was set off at a brute fact (the big bang) or infinite regression. Libertarian free will proponents insist that their choices are made for reasons, but also that those reasons do not determine their choices. Or that those reasons are not themselves determined, but also not a matter of chance, this is a contradiction. If it’s a false trichotomy, then what are the other options? Agent causation (of the soul)? But again, does something cause the agent to act, or does the agent act for no reason? Even if you have an immaterial soul, it only makes sense to say that soul is making decisions if its actions are causally determined by prior soul-states. Otherwise, its actions are uncaused, and uncaused events are, by definition, random. If you are acting randomly, that’s not really decision making. It’s only if your actions are done for reasons which cause those actions that you’re really making decisions. You’re not making decisions if you’re just doing things for no reason. A mixture of chance and determinism? Part of the decision-making process involves causal influences, and the rest has no prior cause. This doesn't solve it. Free will, described by its advocates imply a person has control over their decisions. If my decisions are predetermined; how do I have control over them? If my decisions have no cause, and occur for no reason, then how can I control them? What does it mean to say that “we are free and in control of what facts and ideas the mind focuses on”? When I choose to focus on an idea, does something cause me to choose to focus on that idea? If the answer is yes, then I'm not really in control of that act of focusing. If the answer is no, and there is nothing that determines what I will choose to focus on, the act of focusing on anything is no different from a chance event, which by definition are not controlled by anything. So, does something cause a person to focus and think, or does the person’s choice to think and focus happen for no reason? Or is it partly causally influenced and partly chance? I don’t see how responsibility or control fits into any of these options, and I don’t see what other options there are. I can choose 'x' or 'y', however, everything that makes up that choice is caused by both internal and external variables in which you did not pick. E.g., genetics, brain electricity and chemistry, physics of your own atoms and that around you, parents/ who raised you, where you were raised, what you were taught. These make up your beliefs, thoughts, impulses, emotions, knowledge, memory. True free will would be walking off a building and willing your atoms to defy gravity. In the same way your body cannot defy that fundamental force, your brain cannot defy the other 3 forces which makes up your thoughts. You are just matter and energy reacting to the laws of physics. You can only do anything for 2 reasons; because you want to, or you are forced to: You can do whatever you want, but you cannot choose what you want. It’s a fact that you cannot change. Try this with any scenario. E.g., I give you 2 ice cream flavours to pick from: your favourite (x) and unknown (y). You will choose what you want more. If you pick your favourite x, it’s because you want it presumably for whatever reason it’s your favourite (taste/ texture, nostalgia, safe choice etc.) If you pick y, maybe it’s because you want to try something new in case it’s your new favourite, and this want becomes higher than the want of having your favourite ice cream, which you never chose to want more. Perhaps despite preferring x, you choose y in an effort to regain control of free will and nothing else. You still fall into the same problem; In order to do that, you'd need to "want" to regain your free will, as you see it. Why is your desire to prove a point like this stronger than the desire to have the ice cream you prefer? It just is, and if it happened not to be, you'd have chosen the ice cream that you do prefer. The key takeaway is this: you cannot determine your wants. Think of something you want. Try to not want it. Think of something you don't want and try to want it. It's not possible. And even if it were, in order to change a don't want into a want, you'd need to want to want it. And vice versa. To change want into a don't want, you'd need to want to not want it. You simply can't control what you want. So being forced to do something isn't free will, and wanting to do something isn't free will. But being forced or wanting to do something are the only reasons why you do anything. You never lined up all the flavours; a,b,c…x,y,z… and said “I’m choosing for x to be my favourite”, rather it is innate to you, based on internal and external variables that you did not choose. Why did you choose x? Because I like the way it tastes, or maybe it’s nostalgic because my nan used to give to me as a boy. But again, why? Because it’s how my gustatory system is wired (in which you didn’t choose), or because that’s what my nan was raised to eat as well. I can ask why, ad Infinitum. But why did that resonate with you and not something else? You keep digging existentially deeper, you’re left with bio/chemical/physical mechanics and processes that you have no control of that creates the whole illusion of the experience of you. You did not pick your taste buds, or brain sensory input/ output systems or to be in that environment for that nan to provide you with those experiences. Why will have an infinite regression to a point you cannot explain. “It just is”. Why, will always have a why question following it into an infinite regression. Divine Foreknowledge: The argument is not that God predetermined what he knows ahead of time, it is that in order to infallibly know what will happen in the future, what will happen in the future has to be written in stone. Even if it’s not written in stone by God, it still has to be written in stone in order for God to know it infallibly. Knowing something will happen, even infallibly doesn't deterministically cause it to happen. The point is that in order to infallibly know that an event will happen, that event has to be predetermined. It doesn't have to be predetermined by the knowledge you have, but in order to have that knowledge infallibly, the event cannot be free to not occur. To say that an event is free to occur or not occur is to say whether it will occur or not cannot be infallibly known. There is no coherent scenario, not even hypothetically in which these events do not occur. Even if God is outside time, and our future actions are retroactively causing God to know about them infallibly in the present, then they also lock us into committing them inescapably, otherwise we could defy God's foreknowledge. This would mean that I am predetermined to take every action I will ever take. If we aren't free to act differently, in the future, from how he, presently know we will act, because from his perspective it's already happened, then we have no more freedom to change the future, that we have to change the past.

[@jargontrueseer]

I was afraid I'd go into this and not like tierzoo anymore, which was really sad to think about, but after watching it I have a much deeper respect and admiration for both of you. I think you're both trying to do the same thing in being openminded and being polite in communication from two different worlds and it's really amazing to see you both interact. I'm insanely happy to say I'll be watching both of you for the foreseeable future.

[@Dicaso9]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 lol

[@Dicaso9]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 you know you sound like a schizo to me right? I dont care what the people in your mind do or say man

[@joanfregapane8683]

I truly enjoyed this conversation. Very civil even friendly talk about lives and beliefs and other real topics. Good collaboration!

[@orbracha25]

I actually really appreciate the collab you two made because it's how I found both of your channels, and now knowing that TierZoo is himself religious makes me appreciate it that much more

[@adNauseam6798]

I just fell into Tier Zoo’s content so hard - so cool seeing this collab.

[@DeannaJacksonDJsDelectables]

Love me some Tier Zoo!! I'm a lifelong atheist. I was never brought up to be religious, believe in any gods, and I chose to remain an atheist. My beef is with religion and the insidious individuals, who benefit from oppressing others with that religion. I think people can be good in spite of their religious beliefs, and not because of it.

[@Cool-Vest]

"Good" is just relative to what any given person wants. And saying such things is a little offensive when some people specifically cite their religion as the inspiration for a generous deed. But society-wide, it's still possible it's a net negative.

[@geoffreymartin6363]

If all religious people acted like you TierZoo, this channel probably wouldn't exist.

[@bigatomicsloth3369]

He's still an idiot.

[@runtergerutscht4401]

It's really sad how there are religious spam bots proving your point right under your comment

[@runtergerutscht4401]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 cool fearmongering

[@pauleugenio5914]

What a cool open minded dude 😎 Deserves his educational award 🏆

[@bonogiamboni4830]

Tierzoo looks kinda like he could be wendigoon's younger brother or cousin (idk which of them is actually older), which is hilariously fitting.

[@Rat-King27]

A colab between the two would be great, maybe talking about how the biology of cryptids would work.

[@bonogiamboni4830]

@@Rat-King27 that is such a wonderful idea that i wonder how it hasn't happened already. Hearing tierzoo rant about why mothman's wings wouldn't be able to let him fly sounds fantastic.

[@zefellowbud5970]

growing up religious and becoming rather more agnostic. i always sort of felt that i could not entirely ignore the help i felt when i was a faithful kid. i don't believe it was because i was young and impressionable. it was certainly an aspect of it. but believing in something, believing in someone. the routine of prayer. the self reflections etc. all of those stuck to me still, and they worked in their weird ways. i kept thinking about them as my faith wavered and i began deconstructing them praying is a routinized self reflection session, devil is a compartment of ones flaws and a target of ones animosity promoting self development. god as a being of which the system of routines will center towards, an ideal, and a perfection of which one must strive towards to honor or such. the holy spirit as an acknowledgement of ones own consciousness and Productive doubts towards potentially harmful decisions thats at least how i deconstructed it growing up. at some point i wanted to make an analogue or replacement. a character a fusion of the following scenaros. - when an athlete hypes themselves up on a mirror - when a player in a tabletop game is so used to a character they can almost imagine what the character would say or do. - when i find myself attached to a fictional character in a story, - the story of pygmalion falling for their own creation merged into it is my dreams, aspirations, and ever changing personal beliefs. so i made a character of which i designed, drew(like actually drew them), wrote, etc like a writer getting attached to their characters i wrote this character to embody alot of concepts i believed. to substitute for my practice of prayer i try to involve the character in many situations. imagining the character as giving thoughts when i eat food, imagining a discussion with the character to reccount what happened throughout the day and help me self reflect on my decisions. in general imaginatively involving the character in my daily tasks. i found it has even made exercise weirdly alot easier to bare. one thing i tried to experiment with was giving the character a sense of humor more corny than my own. and weirdly it has had me laughing at those corny humor alot more. its honestly a weird mental exercise. on a side note i do have ADHD so that may play a part in this whole thing. as for faith itself tho. idk maybe i find myself returning to the faith and forgoing all these stuff i have set up just to mimic its efficacy

[@runtergerutscht4401]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363how do you feel about marketers coming to your house trying to sell you a new vacuum cleaner? Because that's what you're being rn. Nobody wstching tjis isn't aware of christianity, so they're either christian, or know about christianity but choose to not be christian. What you're doing isn't missionary work, you're bothering people.

[@hadishstreet3066]

This is such a fantastic discussion. I didn't think it was possible to admire and respect TZ any more than I already did... how thrillingly wrong I was! I loved listening to this. Big thank you to both of you

[@mumemic]

On the question of what happens after death: I used to always believe that there had to be *something* after, but something that cracked that belief was a story I heard about Houdini. He was against the spiritualist movement of the time, and as a magician that was open about his tricks being, just that, tricks, he was very against people taking advantage of others' grief through deception. Basically his side gig was travelling around to many different psychics and exposing the practical effects behind their supposed communication with spirits. Before he died, he told his wife to continue the work if he passed before her. He said if it was possible to stay on this earth as a spirit and communicate with the living, he would do it. He told her a secret phrase that he would say if he were trying to communicate with her. She kept on the work of exposing psychics after he died for years before giving up because no psychic ever said that secret phrase when they claimed to be communicating with him. Of course this doesn't prove that there's nothing after death (it could just be that it's not possible to communicate with the living) but this story just really affected me and probably was the thing that made me fully stop believing in ghosts.

[@m-yday]

I really like how receptive and open-minded he is. I always get nervous if a person I follow comes out to be pretty religious, because it honestly scares me at times. But what I can see here, is he is most definitely thinking critically and without unfair judgement. And that is exactly the kind of thing I look up to most

[@Cesaryeyo]

I'm really really liking these talks videos you're making. It's doing a lot to help me better understand and accept religious people and religion in general. I think a lot of us have a very antagonistic attitude towards religion and facing the fact that a lot (and let's be real, actually most) of religious people are actually motivated to do good and help each other through their beliefs is very healing. Great guest too, I haven't actually watched the colab video, but when I subscribed to Nebula I watched a lot of Tier Zoo and more recently Duelist Mansion and really liked the guy.

[@sandersGG]

tf u mean as long as it continues to validate discrimination you should never accept it in any capacity just because it has some nice aspects

[@anubis63000jd]

I love seeing this wholesome exchange between two different world views. Both fantastic creators, in their own right. Just a win. There are some pretty scary theisms though. I'm cool with the people, I don't want to see laws start reflecting thier beliefs...

[@anubis63000jd]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Why on earth would god set up that system? That's horrible.

[@efi3825]

That comparison of healthy missionaries and technolgically well-doing aliens is interesting. Pretty convincing point to why some people would convert to the aliens' religion.

[@mazzinez.f.6071]

That bit actually reminded me a lot of Star trek pfft, especially in the classic shows they really griped with the power of technology and how differences in planets led to differing beliefs and how to grapple with ethics/morals through all that. Its so interesting to see how these conversations are mirrored/evolve throughout our cultural consciousness!

[@NathanaelNewton]

Drew: 'I don't really play video games at all' Tierzoo: 'Play dark souls 🧌😈 My brother in Christ, are you trying to make him never play a video game ever again? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@bradydeboer4694]

Glad to see you post again and hope you're doing better! 😊 It's always refreshing to have a respectful conversation with someone of opposing beliefs (without trying to prove each other wrong)

[@AzureViking]

I'd still argue that religion is typically a net negative. I think people need community and culture and religion is often the catalyst for those things.

[@billmozart7288]

I read a joke one time: aliens visit Earth, so a group of leaders, including the Pope, have a meeting with it. During their conversation the Pope said "this conversation is all well and good, but have you heard the gospels of our lord and savior Jesus Christ?" The Alien says "Jesus Christ!? We love that guy! Full of wisdom, and he comes back to us every year to party for his birthday." Pope's sitting there agog 😮 "Why? What happened when he was here?"

[@ellielynx3071]

I really appreciate friendly cross-ideological discussions. People with major differences who've "agreed to disagree" often get along much better than people who only slightly disagree.

[@ThaShikushi]

I've always felt that religion supposedly being a solution for some people is kind of a cope. I don't think religion has many unique positives, but it does have unique negatives. You can find meaning, community, culture and routines through many nonreligious means, but those means are probably not gonna make you believe in unsubstantiated supernatural stuff. Yes, I know, not every religious person is negatively affected by their spiritual beliefs, but I'd rather they found solutions that don't come with that possible baggage. To make some kind of analogy, it's kinda like offering someone with a disease medicine that has possible adverse side effects, as opposed to giving them one or several medicines that can cure the exact same thing without those extra side effects.

[@HenrythePaleoGuy]

Pretty much exactly what I think too. It's a lack of being able to healthily come to terms with mortality, and comes about as a way of trying to cope with the finality of our existence. It's unnecessary to have, and leads to really flawed thought processes and ways of analyzing the world.

[@midn8588]

You both are so infectuously positive in this video! What a joy!

[@chefskengko184]

Glad to have you back GMS ❤

[@lynettedunn8643]

We really, *really* needs more people like you two in the world. You were deep, thoughtful, reflective, respectful. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[@xxxswagmaster360noscopebla8]

The collab I never knew I needed!

[@peter1052]

It's happened before years ago!

[@bigatomicsloth3369]

You actually didn't need it. We can't coexist.

[@peter1052]

@@bigatomicsloth3369 ?

[@pg13pgy]

As a Christian, I do love hearing so many different world views and being skeptical not only about beliefs other than mine, but also mine in itself. I was recommended your channel by a friend, and I just want to say I appreciate your open mindedness and your pov, I think it has definitely widened my views and also helped me come out of a small mind perspective to a broadened perspective. So I just wanted to say, thank you!

[@emalee8366]

On the other side of the theological fence here, but what drew me to Drew (no pun intended) was his non-hostility towards Christians. Maybe had I found him years sooner, I wouldn't have liked him. I've never liked militant atheism either before or after I stopped believing.

[@pg13pgy]

@@emalee8366 I agree with you, it’s very easy to listen to anyone who is calm and rational with the things they say and believe, it allows me to hear other opinions and question my own without feeling attacked. That goes for any conversation though to be honest by keeping calm and just talking

[@emalee8366]

@@pg13pgy I don't mind all Christians. It's just the ones who I'm surrounded with, including family, who make life unnecessarily difficult for people who aren't making anyone else's life difficult. I get tired of monologs, short or long, about how I need to believe in Jesus or go to hell, but it's very difficult to have a conversation with anyone. It's like, "I'm right; you're wrong; I don't care why you believe what you believe; you need to care about why I believe what I believe." It's really REALLY annoying, especially when you're named from family gatherings and friends stop talking to you and junk.

[@pg13pgy]

@@emalee8366 I can relate in some form. I’m also one, very sorry to hear that you have been treated in such way. I don’t think anyone deserves to be treated that way or shunned no matter what they believe. We all are Human. In the way I can relate is I was raised to not really question. If I had questions, it was either ignored or shut down with something that didn’t make sense. We went to a church at the time that did so as well. I once did not believe in Christianity. Once we moved to a church that I belie truly teaches contextual and factually accurate biblical teachings with non judgment to anyone and were willing to be honest and answer my questions as best as they could with their knowledge and even tell me the doubts they faced as well. I chose to belie because I personally feel convicted by the love of Jesus and I have personally have experienced things in my life that I could not use natural explanation but rather a Supernatural explanation. Once again, I am truly sorry that you have been treated that way. I hope you are doing well and are finding answers to your questions and finding your peace through all of that! 😊

[@emalee8366]

@@pg13pgy People who find love through Jesus that includes those outside their group tend to be the best. For me, it's a lot to do with LGBTQ+ stuff. Meh. It's a story. While I'm not convinced of the super natural, I don't discount the possibility. As for the Christian message, I would say the silence of God is the most convincing argument against YHWH / Jesus. No matter how you configure beliefs about heaven, hell, and the role of faith and works with salvation, the entire story makes no sense to me. I started off accepting it as a child. Confirmation bias is strong. I left for a little while in high school when I discovered Christians can't agree on what the Bible even means, but then I had a spiritual experience where I believed God spoke to me, and I returned to belief in the form of faith without evidence. Over a decade later I began studying the brain and could find no way to defend free will. After months of trying, I realized I had stopped believing in free will, and my faith crashed down with it. If I'm required to believe and I'm put in a universe that at best doesn't make it obvious and at worst presents evidence against belief, than how is God fair? That wouldn't be a good God in my opinion. To accept that, I would have to accept literally anything. Like if God desired to torment people for no reason than his only pleasure, than God would still be good. That's the kind of pill that is to me. Clearly, I reject that. But Paul and James seem to agree that it takes more than just believing God exists. Belief without the kind of respect for God that leads to doing good things can't save you, most explicitly in James. Okay, so if humans have free will, I can get with that on condition it's obvious that God exists and what God's will is. However even people who agree the Bible is the inerrant word of God can't all agree on what it means. 🤦🏼‍♀️ If that's the vehicle God used to communicate, he did a really terrible job of communicating! In my view, I shouldn't need a Bible to know God exists. God should just be obviously real, and the standard of morality obvious, and then it's up to me to follow it or not, again with a free will caveat. That's a big chunk of why it doesn't make sense to me. If you were to tell me that we all go I heaven, even terrible dictators, than okay. I could only hope that's true, as long as my memory fades just as fast in heaven as it does here on earth and I can find things I find meaningful in heaven. If you love others because you believe, than good. I love others because I'm lucky enough to value other humans and live in a relatively peaceful time and place and have a 0 ACE score and want born with the genes that cause psychopathy. I believe quality of life matters, and not because it comes from on high. If religion plays a role in quality of life, I just hope it's a net positive and there isn't anything better on offer. The best way to convince me that God exists is to pray God begins to consistently reveal him/her/itself to me.

[@SartorialDragon]

It's really refreshing seeing you two respectfully interact on questions you might disagree about! i love seeing a christian who isn't trying to proselytize and is so openminded about people from other walks of life!

[@poisontango]

It's so interesting seeing Patch's responses! Things that seem to be do-or-die issues for many theists he can just shrug off (like watching an atheist's video), but he's no pushover (he didn't just acquiesce to the idea of a case-by-base basis--I took that as he believes some part of the system of Christianity could have widespread benefit, no matter the case, and didn't want to throw out entirely the idea of subjectivism). His trust of science to handle science questions and willingness to admit ignorance in areas where some theists might see that as a threat to their credibility... He doesn't see atheism as a threat. He seems truly comfortable (like when he expressed discomfort with religious people trying to convert other people who have a religious lifestyle that seems to be working for them). I feel like if more people could be like that--viewing religion as one way they try to make their own life better, with no obligation to hold others to their own personal beliefs--the world would be a much better place.

[@rosspunzo1876]

I 100% agree. I am Christian, but I follow those traditions and beliefs because they work for me. By no means does that mean I am right, but it works for me and that’s enough.

[@deadasfak]

TierZoo is ridiculously handsome, wtf

[@lukaslambs5780]

This is why you have friendly discussions with people who have other viewpoints! Good on both of you for being open minded and so cool! Also as for animals and religion: I’ve always thought about our primate ancestors. At what point in human evolution did we have conceptions of religion or the supernatural? And when would a theist say that god applies to them as he does for humans? In short, did Neanderthals go to heaven????

[@off-labelbotanist5355]

I think it has to go part and parcel with language. How can you explain the rationale behind your practice without lore?

[@shieldon530]

I love the free will question and discussion at the end! I think we have a very real conscious experience of “choice” or “free will” which is ultimately a consequence of physical and chemical reactions that have been occurring since the beginning of the universe. In this view, there wouldn’t be any ability to “go back and choose something different” just like how a volcano could go back and erupt differently - if all the prior circumstances were the same, then the outcome of it would also always* be the same. *the problem with quantum randomness and uncertainty is something that I still have been wrestling with, but since I don’t know a lot about quantum physics and whatnot, I can’t really say how that complements or complicates my theory of free feeling determinism

[@K-PastorMatt]

I too am a Christian believer, and have been watching Drew for a few years! (Since before the brick wall backdrop… whenever that switch took place 😅) I REALLY appreciate his perspectives, especially his commentary on American church culture. Of course I don’t agree with everything he brings to the table, but I am so happy to see polite dialogue presented the way that Drew presents!

[@Enaccul]

HUGE dark souls fan here, was playing dark souls while listening, which really took me by surprise when TZ mentioned it haha. Great analogy though, about a church being like a bonfire. Reminds me of how we're a scoial species, so often we all have a "group" or community we're a part or that we can think of as our own bonfire. Church is nice as an organized, weekly, meeting place of like-minded individuals, where we can "recharge". It doesnt have to be church though, can be a number of things. I think its specificallly the like-minded ness and other wholesome but not nescessarily specific to religion aspects that make it so great, and how for example non-religious people can get those same "bonfire" benefits elsewhere.

[@joshuasanderson7359]

Like a regular d&d or gaming group!

[@Enaccul]

@@joshuasanderson7359 Great example!

[@j.s.c.4355]

When I was in college, I took a class in population ecology, and the professor was studying mice in the foothills. He would trap them and then label them by clipping off their toes in binary, so that he always knew when he caught the same mouse again. I found this really disturbing, but on the trip home, he explained his view of animals. He believed their physical pain did not count because they had no souls, or in his words-they didn’t experience pain the way humans did. I snapped at him on that point, and said that the difference between animal and human consciousness was a difference in degree, not in kind. If there is one thing I learned in that class, it is that you could not judge a book by its cover.

[@stylesrj]

Ouch. Did that professor not believe in tagging or something? Or was it just cheaper for him to mutilate the animals he was studying. Did you quit that class or ask around about that professor's conduct?

[@zakinnamis5577]

What do you mean by “difference in degree not kind”?

[@kamrynsikes]

0:18 I’ve been watching tierzoo for ages now! How am I just finding out about this video. Both of y’all are amazing.

[@Luanmm]

1:02:00 As an atheist, if I had to pick some kind of religion I'd choose some kind of Animism. I don't know if any in particular, but the concept that every being, either plant, animal, rock, river, mountain etc. has a spirit is very moving and humbling to me. To treat all Nature with the same respect due to other human beings, as we all share the same kind of essence. I think I kinda try to follow the latter quote, to respect the environment and other people, just not the religious "spirits" part 😊

[@HenrythePaleoGuy]

Either that or just having the base moral code of respecting nature. You don't need a belief system to do that. :)

[@Luanmm]

@@HenrythePaleoGuy sure. But the hypothetical question was to admit the possibility of atheism being wrong and to choose which religion you'd prefer to be true

[@marcuswestphal4955]

As a Christian, if I had to choose a different one, I'd pick buddhism or Hinduism. Having past lives, functional immortality, and and a very engaging memory seeking situation would be fun. I'd love to be a snake. Or a grass hopper, or whatever. It would be cool.

[@irkendragon]

If I were religious I think I'd similarly gravitate towards the concept of reincarnation over permanent afterlife. I don't like the idea of this world being a transient moment in time in which we're forever judged afterwards or being a place we need to escape from. That seems like it leads people to disregard caring for the world we're in. Reincarnation kinda vibes with my impression of nutrient recycling in the food web. I like the notion of animism as well. So far nothing I've dug into has felt entirely right though, I'd probably just make my own.

[@kant.68]

⁠@@HenrythePaleoGuy That is a belief system in its self. A moral code is a belief system

[@LettaLeeJoy]

Interestingly, both GM's content and Tier Zoo's content played a big part in my own deconstruction and deconversion. Really interesting to see you two together and to find out that you're in opposite places on the god question.

[@Zictomorph]

Two people of differing views in a friendly discussion? I KNEW Drew was practicing witchcraft! Two great channels putting out great content together. Thanks!

[@afeathereddinosaur]

Good to see people just accepting each other and having a nice discussion with each other about sentirive topics. My religious community, as I grew up was one to teach acceptance, one of cautioning others on life's matters not in a mandating way but suggesting people and accepting them regardless of outcome. I took that message and it allowed me to converse with so many people and at the end taught me that everything, despite clear connections and similarities is ultimately different in all possible scales, from the smallest to the biggest possible point of views, it could be better, it could be worse regardless of the presented example.

[@Trinket430]

Drew, I do wish you had brought up the need for more secular resources to help people in need because while I love tierzoo's view of the benefits of religion I also think the feeling that "religion will handle it if things go bad" is soon to create a lot of pain when things do go bad and religious people try to take over again.

[@vladimirazubcekova7727]

and they are reproducing to do just that

[@caitlynaizpiri7806]

Love your journey Drew. You’ve been a huge help first as my husband deconverted-as your thinking is so similar to his it helped me understand him better. Since, I also deconverted but for different unrelated reasons much later. It’s been good to see you grow and your thoughts really have helped me get to a healthier place.

[@iBloodxHunter]

You're using a youtuber parasocial relationship as a crutch? That sounds dangerous.

[@rpenm]

Buddhist salvation isn't a final death. The fundamental idea in Buddhism is that the self is an illusion. Salvation comes from transcending the self, not destroying the self. Depending on the tradition, nirvana tends to be conceptualized as infinite contentment, infinite awareness, and timeless.

[@Envy_May]

how does reincarnation fit into this ?

[@rpenm]

​@@Envy_May Reincarnation is the propagation of causes and conditions (aka karma). The classic metaphor is lighting a lamp with another lamp - fire is reborn, but the lamps remain separate entities. Even in ordinary life, your existence is continuously causally determined by "your" physical and mental existence the instant before - creating the illusion of continuity of self. When the physical body dies, some mental aspects of your existence (eg. habits, dispositions, sensory experiences) carry on and affect future lives.

[@vanderkarl3927]

That little "likewise" at the end must feel so validating. I'm actually tearing up a bit thinking about it.

[@Knowledge_Seeker64]

At 28:30, TierZoo is talking about “cargo cults”. This is where a society is visited by people with comparatively advanced technology, changes their lives forever, and then abandons them, leaving their tech and other cargo behind. The locals, wanting the advanced society to come back, imitate everything the visitors did (such as talking through a headset, marching in military formation, etc) to call them back. This happened once when Japanese militia landed on an island in WWII. It’s very reminiscent of modern religions, if one compares themselves to the native, and their god(s) to members of the advanced society.

[@fomoran]

Are you *sure* about it being the japanese... I could have sworn that the cargo cult thought of venerating some British royal family member... But I'm open to being corrected either way...

[@Knowledge_Seeker64]

@@fomoran To be fair, I first learned about cargo culting from MatPat's video about Minecraft's woodland mansions and the illagers. It's possible that I got it wrong, or even that there was more than one cargo cult in the past.

[@Sxcheschka]

What an absolutely amazing conversation both of you had, I loved this a lot!

[@Sxcheschka]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Actually, all I need to do is accept Jesus' god as my own. I don't need to follow mainstream theology in the slightest.

[@andrewolson5471]

I have grown increasingly anti-theist as time has gone on. This is *not* because I think all religions are harmful, but because I think that people should believe things that are true. And the more I have matured, the more convinced I am that all religion is false.

[@pphaver871]

That’s cool, and I feel the same. As long as you just attack religious claims, and when they come to conclusions you think are unwarranted. Plenty of people are theists and are chill. I see many anti theists attack religious people personally and not their ideas

[@elkhuntr2816]

"I think that people should believe things that are true" I completely agree with this statement, which is why this though of "well if religion has some benefit, more power to it..." That is a dangerous way to look at things. Actually, if you believe something that is not true, even if it is beneficial to you, you are living a delusion. You have to follow the evidence. I just happen to think Christianity is actually true based on the evidence. There's the arguments based on scientific evidence such as the kalam cosmological argument, argument from fine tuning, etc... Then there is overwhelming historical evidence for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You can reject it, even though you know its true, that's fine. But to show its not true, you would have to provide evidence.

[@thepalegalilean]

*I have grown increasingly anti-theist as time has gone on.* I recommend against that. this attitude encourages bigotry, and it's not healthy to hold violence (in mentality or otherwise) against good people. *This is not because I think all religions are harmful, but because I think that people should believe things that are true.* Same here. But one shouldn't approach this with an idea that there are no good reasons for religion (or even a particular one) to be true. *And the more I have matured, the more convinced I am that all religion is false.* That means that the only things that are true are hard scientific truths. If all religious beliefs and religions are false, that means EVERY secular belief is equally false. This includes human rights, the immorality of slavery, the separation between the religious and political realm and so on. And that seems ridiculous on its face.

[@yotonking2831]

@@thepalegalilean Nobody talked about violence. Your last paragraph doesn't make any sense and is a non sequitur. How did you come to the conclusion that every secular belief is false? Why would human rights be false if religions are false?

[@thepalegalilean]

@@MossMothMyBeloved *You can be anti-thiest while still not being violent towards religious people.* That's like saying you can be antisemite or racist without vandalizing synagogues or lynching Black people. Whilst that might be true, it misses the point. Prejudicial attitudes that are adopted can justify such behavior. Antitheism is a bigotry like any other. And, like antisemitism or racism, is violent in its fundamentals, regardless of if those who hold to such a prejudice act violently. *Yes morality is socially constructed and comes from our minds. This doesn't mean we should stop being kind or advocating for human rights.* What I was saying (or at least meant to say) that the only things that we can 'know' is true (please mind the quotations) are hard scientific facts. All other beliefs are predicated on subjectivity. Rights, for instance, are subjective sociological structures (that others argue are divine) that have no truth value outside of one's emotionalism. For that reason, as per OP's comment, there's far more reasons to disregard human rights, rather than keep them. Especially considering that they get in the way of scientific advancement.

[@gfreem1090]

It's such a chump-check relating to Drew's backstory through 90% of what he says and then he mentions something that shows how much more fundamental and restrictive his story is than mine. I go from "Yeah, I went through that too!" to "Oh, I'm so thankful for my parents," in such rapid oscillation that my head spins.

[@gawkthimm6030]

here is my take; Relegion is like having a classroom where the students have to show up everyday but theres no teacher. There are a bunch of books around and no one is even sure which one is the text book. Some students insist on one book, others argue just as hard for another. Then suddenly, on the last day, the teacher appears and says he's been watching everybody the whole time. He praises the one who chose the right book and sends them off to have milk and cookies. And then he sets everyone else on fire

[@noahhorsley2640]

Atheists skip school

[@stylesrj]

@@noahhorsley2640 Actually, Atheists would be in the classroom arguing that none of those books are the right ones. Or they'd be taking the free time to do some thinking of their own, etc. while watching everyone else squabble over the novels. Then the teacher comes in and does arson.

[@noahhorsley2640]

@@stylesrjmy comment got removed when I just made a joke :/

[@stylesrj]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Yawn

[@noahhorsley2640]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363you’re not converting anyone by copying and pasting in a comment section. I’d recommend other methods.

[@strahlungsopfer]

i absolutely loved that video, and i clicked on it for both of you. honestly did not expect that collab.

[@siezethebidet]

Tierzoo is a tremendous guest. His humility and positivity are the most compelling apologetic for religion I've seen. His Bonfire analogy is powerful. As a deconstructed fundamentalist missionary, I am happy to see the conversation move from foundational epistemology (does God exist) to the sociological dynamics of humans' propensity for belief. I feel like we (atheists and theists as a single group of interlocators) are making valuable progress. This video conversation embodies that. Congratulations and thanks to you both.

[@who675]

I don't mean this in a snarky or insulting way at all, but I did find it a little funny how TierZoo said he doesn't believe in aliens because he feels the evidence doesn't hold any water. Just a little interesting to hear that from someone who believes in God.

[@michealhigginbotham4036]

To Genetically Modified Skeptic: As one of your religious subscribers, I love respectful attitudes in conversation, regardless of whether they are in disagreement. While I do have significantly less interest in the more anti videos, when they don't necessarily seem in good faith, like Patch, I appreciate critical views, specifically when the criticism is for the sake of growing understanding. The whole toxic religion vs atheist debate is so tired, so I'm always glad when people can present and have constructive conversations that not only elucidate their perspectives but explore outside of them. To TierZoo: Anti-doomers unite! The world is not hopeless. It is always transforming, and like with the individual, everything it experiences has purpose.

[@tweeters211]

Love to see two guys who disagree with each other having such a great time. Would love to see more of this!

[@lemonboiyoutube]

i feel a lot of atheist bias in this comment section... i'm agnostic btw theres comments like TierZoo is a "european" christian, or organised religion is a net-negative, or if religion does more indoctrination than not, but at the end of the day i think these comments r just placing tierzoo into a box as "one of the good ones" and religion as "bad but tolerable". If being religious isn't grounds for judging a person, a family, or even small institutions, shouldn't we be looking for different reasons as to why these issues are prominent in society?

[@xXEGPXx]

Being religious is grounds for judging a person though

[@lemonboiyoutube]

@xXEGPXx is it? in what way? i think if someone is religious that can mean anything from "culturally x" to creationist to buddist to polytheistic to MLK to christian right wing. everyone places their faith in something somewhere. do I understand how the smart people figured out the earth has ~8 billion people? did I do rigorous research to find if its true or not? no, but I still believe in the figure. better example. normal people are fairly moderate in their political beliefs and trust the capitalist institutions of neoliberal society. have each of those people rigorously tested their beliefs? probably not. i think we can look past our frankly minor differences and see that beung religious doesnt mean anything concrete.

[@The_Omniscient_Being]

​@@lemonboiyoutubeThese are the same people that say that Christians are not Being persecuted,As an Indian Christian I can say that Christian Persecution is rapidly increasing in Asia,May Lord Jesus Christ be with us all

[@watsonwrote]

Conversations from different perspectives between friends or collaborators is so refreshing. So much online content is about opposition and "winning" and not about understanding each other.

[@__-tz6xx]

Life is absurd. Games are absurd but have meaning to the players and fans who take them seriously. Life is a collection of games, a collection meaningful experiences. I don't want Religion in my list of games in my life.

[@ChristianL3399]

That's valid... But if you don't go into a religious environment on your own volition, you will find yourself in one over time... It might not look like what you think a religious environment might look like...

[@reksraven]

@@ChristianL3399 This is a somewhat dubious claim. I am coming at it fromt he angle of an agnostic (heavily leaning on the atheistic side of things all things considered). For me a religious enviroment is about following traditions, having sertain rituals and faith in something unfalsifiable (might also include to going to meetings in celebration of that religion). On that I don't see how this is an inevitability seeing as most religious people treat their religion as mostly secondary within their day to day life. (Most christians don't go to church, a ton of muslim men have intercourse before marriage and so on) I am actually interested what are those religious enviroments you thinka bout when writing "It might not look like what you think a religious environment might look like"

[@pastdue7170]

​@@ChristianL3399how would that be the case?

[@bioboss8369]

I still feel partially anti-theist, but not too strongly, as in I respect *people* for their religion, but not religions in and of themselves. I don’t respect Christianity as a whole, but I can and do respect well meaning Christians. Religions have practices and ideas I cannot respect and views that I do not wish to continue existing, but I recognize people have a right to believe in what they wish, and cannot stop that, and it really doesn’t hurt me at all if they don’t push it on others. I only have significant issues with religious institutions who actively seek to push their views on me or others. Religious freedom in all forms.

[@bioboss8369]

I’m not saying religion cannot exist positively, it absolutely can, and if it always did, I’d have no problems with ever, but I just don’t think most religions exist in forms that are socially beneficial overall today.

[@Tanner404]

Hes finally getting revenge for that time you copied him with your arguments for god tier list

[@mattdavid716]

TierZoo wasn’t the first person to conceptualize tiers

[@welljer]

​@@mattdavid716certainly he is not; however, his stylization was used.

[@Tanner404]

@@mattdavid716 I know I was kidding, he referenced tierzoo in that video

[@emalee8366]

It was too long ago to recall how I found Drew, but feel in love with this channel because he's a pluralist instead of militant atheist. First pluralist atheist I think I came across. It's good to know I'm not alone.

[@GRAHFXENO]

Agnostic Atheism is OP

[@reksraven]

Somewhat of an oxymoron lmao. Tho probably more helpful than proclaiming "I am an agnostic, but I don't believe that a god as described in any known literature can exist, so I would normally go with atheist, but my intellectual honesty also prohibits me from 100% ruling a higher being out, so I am an agnostic leaning on the atheistic side."

[@GuerillaBunny]

​@@reksraventhe way I'd describe it is: "I don't know, but I also do not believe." So I kind of recognize that knowledge in a philosophical sense is a high bar I might not be able to surpass, and thinking that I could can become harmful in itself, I also acknowledge that I have no reason to believe it either. So I live my life as if gods don't exist, since none have made their existence undeniable to me if they do.

[@kimchifriend2499]

@@reksraven Atheist = lack of belief. Agnosticism falls under atheism.

[@mikiwu9785]

Two of my favourite content creators posted a video where they talked about stuff? Thank you for this gift

[@donaldbrorson4583]

Falling in love with Tierzoo rn. Christian, zoologist gamer who plays selesnya EDH

[@donaldbrorson4583]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 k

[@marcuswestphal4955]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 what the heck are you doing here? As a Christian, please go away. Preaching is all well and good, but some don't want to hear the message. In other words: you are actively pushing people away from the faith with your messages. Instead of yelling about heaven and hell, which are minor parts of the Bible anyway, practice what Jesus said to do. Give to the poor, as much as you can. If someone lacks a coat, give them your own. Show love, not wrath, practice the fruits of the spirit, and treat everyone with kindness, joy, and acceptance. Take the speck from your own eye, before criticizing the sins of others.

[@DarthCalculus]

I am so glad to see you back releasing a video. I hope you are okay.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

Thank you. We’re getting there! Not quite 100% yet but hopefully soon

[@paranoiarpincess]

I actually quite agree with him about animals potentially evolving to hold a religion. If their mind can evolve to the point where they comprehend cause and effect, combined with a lack of knowledge, and a curiosity toward the unknown, then I think it would be inevitable. They would evolve to a point where they are intelligent enough to wonder, yet lack the wisdom to have the answers. If not science, then magic. If magic, then god.

[@Johnhamsta]

A magic system doesn't require a god, but a god does require a magic system.

[@goldenblue12]

@@Johnhamstawdym

[@paranoiarpincess]

@@Johnhamsta I was just simplifying the concept but yes, you are right.

[@rainbowsorceress2082]

​@@goldenblue12 many practicing witches from all sorts of spiritual paths and and cultural backgrounds lack deity worship in any way. I myself am one such example, while i incorporate elemental energies and general nature related ideas and rituals into my practice, i do not believe in any god or gods. My spirituality has a magic system, but no deities involved. That is what the other commentator was talking about.

[@Johnhamsta]

@goldenblue12 a universe could have underlying principles that function as magic, and not necessarily require a sentient agent such as a god. A sentient agent such as a god-however-would need magic by which to enact their powers, or they would be just a mundane force.

[@justinb9356]

Comment for the algorithm. Loved this video. Really enjoy calm, rational, FRIENDLY discussion between people who don't necessarily share viewpoints

[@ziek3012]

How dare you drew. I cant believe this betrayal. You dont play videogames. I dont think i could ever forgive you. 😱

[@mspaint93]

Its so cool seeing people with conflicting opinions discuss theology! It makes me hopeful :)

[@ireneqq2300]

nice to see you back so soon!

[@kittys.2870]

Religion has caused more grief than just about everything else

[@benjaminrichmond4227]

Tierzoo??? I've never seen what he looks like! That's crazy, here in the flesh! I've been following him since he only had a few thousand subscribers 😭 Tierzoo if you can hear me I love your channel! Such a cool conversation coming from someone who grew up Christian but has since deconverted, with most my family still believing I've never been willing to espouse an anti religious position, but I certainly harbored the feelings for a while. Like the truth had been wrongfully hidden from me, like I was fooled, and it caused some resentment. Love y'all both, stay cool! Edit: I also love Dark Souls!

[@ROEnotEOR]

This discussion is so cool to watch!

[@jonincannon]

The trouble with Christianity is usually not that the religion is flawed or that the groups are too large- it’s just that nobody follows the religion very well- a lot of ppl get a “holier than thou” attitude and don’t change all that much. The purpose of Christianity has always been to spread love and the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ- and too often we forget that

[@dowottboy5889]

I feel like close-mindedness just makes everything worse, and it's just so refreshing to see two people with so different beliefs both be so openminded and accepting of each other.

[@tinyturtle1898]

I think being close minded is baked into many religions. Blind faith, prejudice, and religious leaders that extract tons of wealth and influence are the worst things about religion. These aspects vary between communities, but its more common in some religions, like Mormons and Evagelicals

[@theodorebear6714]

There's a difference between doing what is right and what is easy. I will not tolerate moral and intellectual degradation for the sake of a superstition that I could be deeply ashamed to support. I take the direction and survival of humanity more seriously than some sort of a game.

[@baraharonovich2926]

I really enjoyed the convo xD had a smile throughout the whole thing. I realized during this video that both of your “nerd personalities” exist in me and that I’d probably get along with both of you really well lol

[@dustind4694]

A useful reminder that it is entirely possible to live peacefully alongside people who think differently, if everyone's willing to be cool.

[@curiousnerdkitteh]

TierZoo seems so nice!

[@alexathegr8]

He embodies what Christianity should be. Non judgmental, open, kind, respectful etc. I find it refreshing! And agree with you

[@ThatScrubWolf]

6:22 Personally I think religion evolved because of the human desire for structure, stability, and socializing. In my eyes, religion is nothing but a tool to conduct oneself in some manner and foster a sense of community and belonging or used solely as justification for morally questionable desires. I think religion has done a lot of good but it's also been the source for some of the worst evils and while I can't say whether humanity would be better off without it, I do know that a lot of evil and manipulation would have been prevented. Although, the evil and manipulation would have likely just taken another form since it seems to be ingrained in humanity itself.

[@deeswa2759]

Im also Christian but I do like these videos

[@astrovation3281]

I just watched the other tierzoo video, when u began talking about the memes I realised that the way I've been thinking actually has a name for it!

[@semidemiurge]

Beliefs inform one’s actions, and those actions affect others. This indisputable fact puts moral weight on how one determines what is true from false, right from wrong, etc. I would argue that using faith as a means to determining or holding what is true is intentionally being irrational. The mental game of Twister that theists play to contort logic and abuse science in order to maintain their narrative leads to the situation we are in today. When you are trained/indoctrinated to ignore reality and substitute a feel-good narrative as the basis for how you interpret existence, it should be no surprise that those same people can unashamedly ignore facts that they dislike and substitute their own. Being in the habit of freely being irrational/illogical when it suits you is a serious moral failing. The reason you don't recognize that this is the case is due to the culture that you were raised in that accepts and promotes this irresponsibility, i.e. Christianity.

[@MFMegaZeroX7]

I'm a happy grad student, but I'm also lucky enough to be in CS Theory, which means that there is more money floating around because of the CS, but also low stress/not very hierarchal nature of being on the theory side.

[@dionjones6300]

Being Christian is interesting. What it looks like, how it's enforced, etc. I watch some of your content because I'm a dork who likes learning. I live my life largely as a secular person but I still maintain my belief system. I simultaneously see the world in terms of how it's accepted in modern science (which is steadily changing and improving upon itself). My religious self is Christian and had a divine experience when I was baptized in the ocean and mind you, I'm pretty grounded even in my beliefs often. I've been in ocean water. If I thought I believed before I really believe now 😂. Anywho, I think religion can be helpful. Socially, or used as a moral guideline. My church focuses on a love angle of God/Jesus. Open and affirming for queer folks, works with the science. Not a hate group in any way. Love it. I've been to COGICs and baptist churches ... No thanks. Never again. If I wasn't Christian I would still be religious. I have a strong interest in traditional African religions and am sad that they're on the decline where they are otherwise endemic.

[@Sxcheschka]

When I was in kindergarten I said I wanted to be a philosopher when I grew up. And that's what I've been doing as my personal goal towards understanding myself and all that sort of stuff. One of my favourite things I thought up is, "Everything is a believable idea, all it takes is for at least one person to believe in it for it to be a believable idea. I do not need to believe in it for it to be a believable idea. It doesn't mean that the believable idea is right, or wrong, it just means it's believable. Through testing and practice, you can turn a believable idea into a potential reality." there is more to this idea, and I added a bit of my newer thoughts onto it, but this is one of my all time favourite things I've thought up.

[@davekaszycki8026]

Mr Beat (no s) does a similar thing with fellow you tubers.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

His streams gave me the idea to do mine! I’ll definitely invite Mr. Beat on sometime