Reloading and Evaluating a Fine Powder Test

[@FClassJohn]

This is a great example of how you can prepare for a test but then something changes at the range and you just have to work through it the best you can. I planned on doing two separate rounds of testing each powder charge at 100yds and ended up having to do two rounds together of each powder charge at 300yds. I still got good results and feel good about it but it's not how I normally would test this. The match I'm going to is just a fun club match so it'll be fine and it's only a 600yd match, but if I was heading to a large match I'd retest again using my normal method just to double check and feel more confident.

[@ironbomb6753]

Would the test at 100 have been as effective as this at 300? To me, the dispersion at 100 would have much less on all the groups. Cant wait for you video about the mini match.

[@FC64002]

John, you are like a shooting machine! I would love to have just a portion of your knowledge. Thank you sir for all you do.

[@BubbaScreaminSizzlers]

I'm yelling at my phone "you forgot to arm your labradar!!" 😂 Been there done that.

[@Dwayne7834]

49. 6 looks great. Good with your match. Thanks for sharing.

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you.

[@aussiesteveakastevecallagh2280]

Nice shooting John love your setup Steve.

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you.

[@tonyreed6176]

Do you have a video explaining the barrel "speeding up " not sure if I know what you are talking about but would love some more great info

[@ronnydowdy7432]

Really enjoyed this one. Very good information. Thank you for sharing.

[@glockparaastra]

Insane setup you have there. Ultimate gadgets 🤣

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you 😜

[@ctc2469]

💰💰

[@michaelarmstrong3246]

Thanks for this video im currently working on my F Class rifle in 223 with 80 grain Bergers and Varget im learning that there is alot of precise attention to detail for trying to get 223 to shoot good at long range.

[@FClassJohn]

Yeah .223 in F-TR really forces you to be better all around especially with your wind calls. Good luck and hope it meets all your needs and you have fun.

[@longsnipz]

At what range are you shooting? 600yrd? I'm having trouble with 75gr ELD match being too long and won't fit in mags... I currently run 68gr match with my .223 training rifle... easy half in groups at 500yrds.

[@duggydo]

Your velocities are super consistent. The tolerance of the Labradar is about +/1 3fps at the velocities you are shooting. They are within that tolerance or better.

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you. I work really hard to drive my ES/SD numbers as low as possible.

[@harryflotemersch4991]

John, I'm wondering if you overall goal is to reduce your shooting variation and your strategy is to reduce the variation in the vertical spread that is driven by velocity that comes from the loading process, not the shooter so that when that is smaller you can then turn around improve the shooting performance of the shooter for competition OR am I misunderstanding your reason for measuring the loading force curve. HF

[@FClassJohn]

I've never really called it loading force curve but yeah I'd say that's basically the concept. I'm just working to reduce group size and ultimately vertical so that when I'm at a match I spend my time adjusting for wind and not worrying about anything else if I can help it.

[@airborne350g]

Love your set up. One day I too will have a rifle like that, still gathering information. What stand are you using for your Labradar? It is pretty solid. Oh I am also starting out with an RPR like you did. LOL

[@FClassJohn]

Here ya go, rock solid stand arkcomachine.com/shop/ols/products/quad-base-use-for-lab-radar. Thank you and good luck!!

[@shannonnunn]

Those velocities are tight!

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you

[@harryflotemersch4991]

John, When you have selected the rounds you will track from the force curve are you shooting as you would in competition or with a vise to minimize the variation due to the shooter so you can focus on the study of the ammo and be able to see clearer into the relationships of the curve data to the effect on the shot? HF

[@FClassJohn]

I just shoot off my regular setup. For me I want to test under the same conditions and in the same way I shoot at a match.

[@RHG48]

I'm sure the camera is slightly non representative of real life, but how much clearance is there between that bullet barrier and your trajectory to 600yd? Or this a reduced 600yd match at a shorter distance? Great shooting!

[@FClassJohn]

No we are shooting a full 600 yard match. From the ground to the bottom of the barrier is about 7 feet or so. It’s 20 feet to the top of the barrier. There’s plenty of room for shooting plus our targets are at about a 2 to 3° down slope as well.

[@drolds7246]

Forgot to re-arm after the cool down...

[@FClassJohn]

Oh duh. Yeah I totally forgot that’s what happened. That makes much more sense I don’t know how I didn’t realize that. Thank you 😖

[@drolds7246]

Been there! Great shooting! You prefer the full bag on the T-Rex, over the roller rodzilla top?

[@FClassJohn]

@@drolds7246 I like them both for different reasons. I've been testing the new top for Rod and it's benchrest legal.

[@AbdelOveAllhan]

So how did the match and load turn out, John?

[@jjthefed]

I guess barrel temp doesn’t matter.

[@FClassJohn]

Only up to a certain point. I know in my particular case I can go up to a temp of about 170 degree F before I start getting too worried about groups shifting or opening up. YMMV

[@JJ-tf2qs]

Hi John, are you doing your powder test with finding the jam and going minus 20 like Erik Cortina? And then using that for a starting point before you do your final seating depth test?

[@FClassJohn]

Yeah basically the same thing.

[@ironbomb6753]

Great video, great insight to where i want to go. 👍

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you

[@justinvandee2008]

Nice video and good luck.

[@FClassJohn]

Thanks!

[@brockpohlner6426]

Hi John, what grain increment do you do your initial course powder test at if you’re doing the fine powder test at 0.1gn increments? Secondly, your groups showing vertical dispersion, did these groups reflect the chronograph figures? Meaning the groups/charge weights with more vertical dispersion had more velocity dispersion than the tighter ones or was your vertical dispersion due to the the nature of the group that could be tuned with seating depth?

[@cbhill1]

Forgive my ignorance, but what rest is that you’re using? First time seeing something like that.

[@FClassJohn]

It’s the Rodzilla T-Rex kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6LZoZSGp9h-n5I

[@justinvandervort7581]

You’ve probably mentioned this on another video somewhere, but what is this software?

[@kingropplebopplesoppy2634]

The software is from the Shotmarker product (electronic target) ..... it just displays on your iPhone/iPad

[@IHFarmer2007]

At least I'm not the only one forgetting things when doing load development!

[@FClassJohn]

It happens to everyone at some point. Better than getting to the range and realizing I forgot my rear bag.

[@IHFarmer2007]

@@FClassJohn Yep for sure, I've forgotten that as well and a rear bag makes ALL the difference! I've forgotten my ammo before.....rushing to get out the door with all the equipment, luckily my range is our family farm so.....

[@alanalton7567]

Sorry if you covered this, but curious what caliber, powder, and bullet are you using here?

[@FClassJohn]

.284win, RL16 and Berger 180gr.

[@alanalton7567]

@@FClassJohn thank you John. I’m also running Re16, and the 184s. I think the 180s were easier to find a good node for, but decided to try the 184s and the higher B.C. I settled on 51.0gr, and about 2820fps in mine.

[@FClassJohn]

@@alanalton7567 I shot the 184s for a while, took 3rd at mid-range Southwest Nationals with them. They're very capable as Norm showed by setting the F-Class Long Range National Record with them.

[@alanalton7567]

@@FClassJohn also wanted to say thank you for the time and effort you put in on these videos and the graciousness of selflessly sharing your hard earned knowledge. I am very impressed with the meticulousness of your methodology, and enjoy your videos immensely. As a trained scientist myself, I also like to employ empirical testing and data collection, to couple with my gut feel of equipment that feels right to me. There’s a group of us up here in Alberta who are shooting F Class, and we were thinking of doing a road trip this winter to shoot some comps in Arizona etc, to keep our skills up and enjoy camaraderie with our American friends, but covid put a stop to that. I have been a big fan of Re16 for a while now, it consistently seems to post better LabRadar numbers for similar velocities across many calibers. I also use it in my Dasher , with 109s, and that Combo has proven excellent in Comps as well, as long as the wind isn’t too strong. This season I’m spinning up a Shehane and 6BRA, so will be a good comparison to the Dasher/284 Win combo of last season. Based off your experiences and videos, also purchased and am in love with my Shotmarker for training, and ordered a Macmillan ZS too. Please keep those videos coming and thanks again!

[@FClassJohn]

@@alanalton7567 Thank you for the kind words and I'll keep working on videos.

[@howdyduty8890]

It’s clear you put a lot of work into these videos, and certainly I to to your shooting. Great info as always, thank you. Are you seeking any critical feedback?

[@FClassJohn]

I'm always open to feedback. Feel free to email at [e-mail] if you think it's more appropriate to send there. Thank you.

[@bigboyzguns8164]

Great Video!, May I ask where the Lab Radar stand is from? Thank you.

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you. It's from Arkco Machine. arkcomachine.com/shop

[@justinvandervort7581]

@@FClassJohn thanks!

[@AdamLe-ly8yw]

that's a cool app for diagnosing groupings.. what is it?

[@FClassJohn]

It's part of the Shotmarket system that I use.

[@douglasbattjes3991]

Did you forget to reset the crono at 49.9 or am I missing something ?

[@FClassJohn]

Yeah something weird happened. I don’t remember but if you look I either forgot to arm it or the trigger fell off because the speeds never change and I think I reference that later if I remember right.

[@douglasbattjes3991]

@@FClassJohn Weather warmer here now and want to work up a load for my 6.5 C, and PRC in same cal. now to find a starting point for powder, have H 1000, RL 26 , and some others, 24" barrel so should I cut back on charge some to start, already bumped the shoulder .002 and got a jam point, think of starting at .010 of the lands and going up, to .0050 any thoughts.? Thanks in advance if you do. Really like all your info you put out.

[@FClassJohn]

@@douglasbattjes3991 If it’s significantly warmer you may want to back off your starting load a little. And your jump range seems good but I don’t know that caliber so I’m mostly guessing based on other cartridges I’ve used.

[@douglasbattjes3991]

@@FClassJohn John shooting 6.5 C and the 6.5 PRC, The PRC shoots .18 groups with the 143 ELD-X, and like to work up a load for the PRC and Creed, with the 140 Berger's VLD's Thinking of the RL 26 , H1000 or H 4350. Can't find any seeds in the 143 Gr ELD X

[@FClassJohn]

@@douglasbattjes3991 Those are three very different speed powders so I'm sure you'll find one that works. I don't shoot 6.5prc so I'm not sure which one or where to start on that.

[@jaywright2276]

what powder is that your shooting

[@FClassJohn]

If I remember right, that's IMR 4955 but could be 4350 or RL16 too.

[@bartoszwilk1382]

Hi Jon. What bullet and what powder it is?

[@FClassJohn]

Berger 180 hybrids and RL16

[@bartoszwilk1382]

@@FClassJohn thanks!!

[@rapidrrobert4333]

Hi John: I bet you have read the Houston Warehouse article that boils down to the powder charge really doesn't make that much difference. The factors are neck tension, OAL, temperature and bullet shape. I would love to shoot with you, I am on the cusp of setting up for F class. How can I get in touch with you without exposing either of us to unwanted attention?

[@rustyvoiceinwilderness9580]

Hi Rapid - I agree with one exception. I can't compute why we talk about OAL when the shape of the projectile makes that so different. I think that CBTO is so much more objective. Just saying.

[@rapidrrobert4333]

@@rustyvoiceinwilderness9580 Help me here: What is CBTO?

[@lovetoflylovetofly3843]

Cartridge Base To Ogive....

[@rustyvoiceinwilderness9580]

That is the distance from the Case Base to where the projectile will touch the lands. That will be different with each projectile manufactured when you measure Over All Length. Case in point a round nose to a high BC sharp point. I use the Hornady measuring tool to measure that. I hope this helps.

[@rapidrrobert4333]

@@lovetoflylovetofly3843 Got it, thanks. That makes shoulder to bolt face super critical. I suppose it's the same thing. How far ogive from the lands do you go I try for .010, but I have been measuring it as OAL after testing the bullets that I use. Right now, I am using Hornady eldM 140 grain in 6.5CM. H4350@ 34 grains.

[@shannonnunn]

Is your barrel floated?

[@FClassJohn]

Oh yes. I couldn’t do what I do if it wasn’t floated.

[@86309]

Do you neck turn ?

[@FClassJohn]

I don’t currently neck turn.

[@randomidiot8142]

It looks like you're shooting free recoil and letting it do what it wants to?

[@FClassJohn]

It's a controlled free-recoil. I have very light touch with my cheek on the stock but yes I allow it recoil straight back.

[@randomidiot8142]

@@FClassJohn what's the rifle's weight? My .284 would rearrange my face with the scope if I tried that 😅

[@FClassJohn]

@@randomidiot8142 It's just under 22lbs.

[@dbmail545]

Wow! 50 to 75 fps difference between factory loads. Single digits for yours.

[@FClassJohn]

yeah there's always a big difference in factory vs handholds. When you control every step of the process it helps.

[@larrywhite3786]

Lab radar not working.

[@riflemanjim]

What caliber?

[@FClassJohn]

.284win

[@teamsix7185]

Uhhh…. This is not shooting. This is a machine in a vice sending a projectile down range. Are all F class matches shot with this stuff? I was thinking about tossing my name in a hat and signing up to get into F Class. But I’m hopeful there are actual shooters on lightly modified rifles (not a line of button pressers). Great info though. Thnx

[@1BeGe]

Literally the origin of F-class shooting was an old guy that couldn't otherwise shoot anymore, so he made a different kind of competition that was about your rifle tuning, load developing, and wind calling skills where you sandbagged in the rifle and used telescopic sights, eliminating the physical and visual acuity he no longer had, making about his knowledge and preparation instead. It's one of many types of shooting you can choose to do. But even if you don't choose something like that, this is TESTING for load development. If you're out there doing your load development testing by trying to test your skill in steadying a rifle then you're not the brightest bulb. Even PRS shooters bag their rifle in and eliminate any human component in order to do scientific testing on a load.