Repairing a 1962 Seeburg DS-160 Jukebox! - Part 1 - The Tormat Memory Unit

[@LyonsArcade]

Buy Mr. Rich's book here: amzn.to/2UfpwDF After you click that link to Amazon, anything (a case of beer, a pack of cards) you buy gives us a small royalty for sending you there. Thank you!

[@louisvillaescusa]

Amazon is listing that book as "unavailable."

[@basketballjones6782]

I designed, programmed, and built a solid state Arduino-based replacement for the TSU5 on my DS-100. Would work without modification on a DS160 as well. Only requires one easily reversible modification to the TorMat unit - other than this, still uses the same sockets as the original TSU and retains the TorMat. Still works great 5 years later. I even designed and had built a custom circuit board for it. Moron guy who is the apparent "Seeburg Godfather" mafioso type up in NY decided it would eat into his profits selling replacement parts and service guides for Seeburg jukeboxes, so set forth in quenching the info I had sent out to the Facebook jukebox group, laughing and putting it down as "useless" and "Why would anyone want to do such a thing?!" Well, perhaps because there were only so many TSUs evert made, and they are known to burn up the main transformer which is NLA. I no longer do Facebook... partly because of tools like that guy in NY.

[@MattMcIrvin]

Those ferrite cores are the kind of computer memory that took people to the Moon! Glorious old-school tech. When I was a kid, books about computers always went on about it, because it had been the predominant form for quite a while.

[@LyonsArcade]

It's so cool seeing tech like that, that's solid and basically stands the test of time!

[@AiMR]

I had a DS-160 for a while. Those 4 amp tubes are pretty expensive. There are plans to retrofit them with more common replacements. There is a more common mono version of this without the hinged speakers. My dream jukebox is the Rowe/AMI Continental II, it is so cool!

[@LyonsArcade]

Uh Oh I didn't know those Amp tubes were expensive, I'll probably need those... I'll look into it, I'm going to rebuild the amplifier this week. Thanks for watching Eric, I'll have to try and track down a Continental II :)

[@AiMR]

@@LyonsArcade There are a few sellers online that sell a recap kit, that would help you. I used Victory glass back in the 90s: victoryglass.com/ The later Seeburgs in the 70s used a crude type of solid state memory unit that always seems to go bad. The Seeburg Entertainer is an example. So I don't know how that interoperates with the tormat unit. There is a company that makes a kit for those. If I think of anything else once I finish the video I'll let you know.

[@rtello45]

I have had my Seeburg AY160 since the 70s. It recently started only selected the first record in the tray and then would eject record when another was selected. I was lost as to what to do and feared that at long last my analog Spotify was gone. After trying different ideas from the manual I came across your video. It was the RCA ground plug. The wires has come loose from age. Reconnected them and I have my baby back. Thank you! (I am not sure but I swear it even sounds better after I got it working again ;))

[@Solitaire1]

Dang. Now I want to get my DS-100 down here (TN) and get it working again. The amp has been rebuilt and sounds fantastic. But it has Tormat issues. It would scan back and forth but not stop at any selection. It would make a snapping sound through the speakers every time it passed over a Tormat rivet and the tubes on the control box would flash. I could not figure it out then and haven't touched it for about 25 years since I've been moving around the country so it remained at my brother's house in PA. I have a lot more electronic skills now so I should be able to get it working right with the help of those books and website. Cosmetically it is "meh". Especially the wood grain paper someone stuck to the sides. But I think that I could get it working and back to near its former glory.

[@LyonsArcade]

You could fix it. The secret to fixing any of these is to systematically go through them. Usually people mess up by trying to just fix one little issue, if you go through everything eventually you find what the problem is and a few other ones you don't know are there too, and they get really reliable :)

[@rayk126]

The snapping sound is because the amp is not being muted between records. Some switches on the mech mute the amp when the record is rejected and close when the next is placed on the turntable. You TSU needs to be recapped and the tubes checked to select properly. Scanning back and forth and not selecting is the classic Seeburg problem with a tormat Juke.

[@Solitaire1]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the responses. Once I'm able to get it here a careful inspection and recapping are the first things I will do.

[@grlg2]

Great Stuff! I love all the odd stuff you repair too. I had a Yamaha 110 CD changer that had a similar mechanism that was inline like that and not the typical carousel. It had a photo-interrupt to count positions along the bottom and would shine light through the CD's edges to take note of what slots were loaded. Cheers.

[@LyonsArcade]

That sounds like a cool setup too, I haven't worked on many home components...

[@AwesomeGames56]

I actually understood that system after you explained it! Very cool repair video.

[@LyonsArcade]

it's a really cool system, I'm glad some people appreciate it for what it is.

[@InMyHead]

i love the change of pace. i have zero experience with Jukes. but this is amazing to see how they work and how they used a binary concept back in the 50s.

[@LyonsArcade]

I'm going to do some more jukebox videos soon, I think they're kind of neat to just look at and see how they do what they do....

[@InMyHead]

@@LyonsArcade totally I'm in

[@kenberkun]

I restored one of these a couple of decades ago. I loved having it. Sold it when I moved overseas. I wonder where it is today.

[@martinwhitaker5096]

That is an amazing application of core memory - perfectly suited!

[@LyonsArcade]

Isn't it pretty cool? Kind of mind blowing that they were willing to go with it, that far back. You'd think they'd be afraid of the technology, or think it wouldn't be reliable or something, but they ran with it!

[@charlesmurphy1510]

I love the jukebox repair videos! The mechanicals are interesting and amaze me. Do more.

[@LyonsArcade]

We have another one coming up tomorrow :)

[@rayk126]

Hi Joe love the videos. I also restore Seeburgs from the 50's I am currently working on a 100G then next in line is a DS160 with no ears.

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks for watching Ray, I've only done 5 or 6 Seeburgs but I have a whole backlog of them to do. I've been 'piddling' around with this one for awhile (which is why the video quality is so crappy, it's the older camera because I filmed this two months ago).... I'm going to go ahead and finish it so I can work on something else. See you on the next video.... we have a 100G we're doing too, BTW!

[@rayk126]

@@LyonsArcade I've been a amusement machine repairman for 40 years. Ever since I received a certificate in Amusement Machine Repair by a Chicago Trade School. (Washburne which is long gone now) First thing you need to fix a Juke is the manual which are available at the Jukebox Parts Stores online. If you have any questions or need a part that's not available I might be able to help you. You can do a search for RayK222 and see some of my work.

[@LyonsArcade]

@@rayk126 Thanks Ray!

[@MidnightVisions]

John's Jukes has been around for almost 40 years. Bought several kits from them over the years.

[@LyonsArcade]

He has all kinds of little neat tricks and tips on his website too :)

[@glassbeveller]

Thanks so much , slowly learning about issues with my seeburg & will attempt basic cleaning & possible repair this issue. GREAT VIDEO. Thank you so much .perth australia

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks for watching Darryn, good luck with it!

[@Podunk82]

Wild Wood Weed is an awesome song, I love Juke Boxes excellent vid!

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks PoDunk we appreciate you watching.... more videos soon :)

[@barriem5318]

Super helpful video. Thanks for posting. I'm working on my dad's 1959 Seeburg. The selectomatic mechanism goes back and forth and won't play any selection.

[@pony053]

A good friend GAVE me several brand new 2050 Thyratron tubes for my Model 222 (1959) Tormat machine....I also had a broadcast automation system that used ferrite core memory!

[@melanatedprose9134]

I agree that the Tormat system was way ahead of it's time. I also like how the records fit into the Seeburg better than the Rock-Ola ones. But so far the exteriors of the Rock Ola boxes look more appealing. At least from the videos I've seen on your channel to this point. Great video!

[@rongeernaert1208]

Ground in Electronics is important factor , thanks for great info and I go for that extra wire and not broken my TORMAT because to far loosen that screw and on my Seeburg Spectra LS1 there play only A sides on all singles so I go to search of broken TORMAT wires first !

[@bheasy1]

Nice work brother! I got a non tormat seeburg w-100 I'm working on... I had a tormat one a couple years ago with the same problem you had. I like that solution. I was trying to reset the whole tormat with a battery, read it on the internet... Ha!

[@LyonsArcade]

That's a very pretty machine, I think those early ones used little pins like the Rock Ola's did later.... I heard about that battery trick but never tried it yet :)

[@petehillyer5444]

Love your vidoes Joe I've been restoring jukes for many years. Some excellent Facebook groups too.

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks for watching Pete, we'll get more into in the next video :)

[@AiMR]

IIRC, that RCA you were fiddling with is the phono input to the amp 😉

[@LyonsArcade]

That particular one is the tormat ground but there’s another for the amp 😀

[@mathewbailey6718]

1948 was when Seeburg started making the Select-O - Matic. The M100A was the first such jukebox (78 rpm) & it could be converted to a 45 rpm mechanism or the existing mechanism could be either converted to play 45's or 12 inch 33 rpm records. Seeburg did not use the Tormat until 1954 or 1955 beginning with the V-200 & was used until the late 1970's ending with the STD4. From the M100A until the V-200,Seeburg used a pinbank. Seeburg eliminated the Tormat beginning after the STD4 with the SMC-1.

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks for the info!

[@bperkins]

I had heard of core memory, seen pictures of it - but assumed it was in IBM machines in the 50's. I had no idea it was commercially available like this. Fun video to watch. Thanks! Having watched many of your videos, I know you don't release them until the project is finished (smart).. But I have trouble figuring out the ordering sometimes. If you could (somehow) have the links in the descriptions for the set - that would be great! ex: All 3 videos in a set would have all 3 video links in each of their descriptions. I'm politely requesting.. Love watching your videos. thanks sir.

[@LyonsArcade]

I try to do that in a bunch of them Bob but a few of them don't have them... if you go to our videos on our channel, usually the ones that are part of a set are in a row or reasonably close. Thanks for watching!

[@user2C47]

I wish I had those books when I found an abandoned LPC-1. It ended up being sold for $1 as scrap iron.

[@LyonsArcade]

Unfortunately a ton of them have been scrapped over the years. I knew a guy who had a whole building full of jukeboxes he scrapped, most of them were 70's models, they don't get much love.

[@DeadKoby]

I got myself an AY100....... pretty similar. I've made some progress, but still wrestling with getting the mech to play ball with me.

[@LyonsArcade]

That book from Ron Rich I mention is the way to go, he knows everything about seeburg mechs.... he's still around posting on jukeboxaddicts.proboards.com/

[@DeadKoby]

@@LyonsArcade thanks. I am the FIRST guy to work on mine since it left the factory. Talk about dead caps! The mech's grease is more like glue after 60 years. Oh the joys.

[@Jackpkmn]

From watching these videos common problems with jukeboxes are in a distant 3rd we have actual regular electrical problems from age. in 2nd place we have some one bungled repairs in the past and the most common by far: some goober hosed it down with WD-40.

[@LyonsArcade]

Pretty much!

[@PRRGG1]

Rope core memory was on Apollo 11 and got us to the moon. Same stuff in your "coin operated record player" LOL!

[@LyonsArcade]

Pretty cool stuff! Thanks for watching PRRGG1!

[@WandaSings4God]

Love the video! I have a Seeburg DS160 and the Select-O-Matic quit working. It won't move. Any suggestions?

[@LyonsArcade]

It may be a fuse in the power supply on the back door but it could be any number of things, hard to say without working through it unfortunately!

[@EsotericArctos]

What a gorgeous machine. Great work as always. I don't know why some people spray WD-40 over everything. It's horrid stuff.

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks Brendan, yes the WD-40 the older I get the more I don't think it's good for anything. I guess it may be a good cleaner but it's not supposed to be a lubricant. I knew this old man that literally sprayed it on everything, he sprayed it on his t.v. remote control if the buttons weren't working right.

[@jasonudall8614]

Water dispersent formulation number 40........canola....corn veg oil and white spirit (UK )....spirit is reasonable solvent..corn oil drys and dries sticky.

[@allrock1238]

I do know its great at inadvertently setting electrical mechanisms on fire if one does not let it fully evaporate first . spent hours repairing the harness of pinball machine someone made this discovery on. and plus it makes a royal mess and does not lubricate that well ,it has its place and a pinball mechanism is not one of them..

[@-abacchus]

"Select-o-matic" - they don't name stuff like that anymore :D

[@LyonsArcade]

Very 50's sounding :)

[@lascheque]

Did Todd Tuckey work for them back then? :D

[@Dust599]

Core memory, wow she is old! (like the valves didn't give it away)

[@LyonsArcade]

She’s got some age on her, such a cool machine!

[@alanbrady9609]

Joe, great video, father in law has a KD-200 that I helped him get running. Filled with better records than what you had in the video 🤪🤣

[@LyonsArcade]

It can't be filled with better records unless there's more Impressions, Buddy Holly, and more Righteous Brothers :)

[@allrock1238]

A note was added on the selection panel ,, chose number then the selections letter. does the letter selection fail to lock down when pressed ?

[@LyonsArcade]

I haven't had any problems with it, not sure if it was an issue with the TMU or not that the recapping fixed...

[@rottenpumpkinhaunts1031]

Hey, do you know anything about old claw machines (1960s) if so, I have a greyhound skill crane that is able to tell the date it was manufactured (which all of them do) but it does it non stop and won't let me play the machine. Do you know how to fix this? Thanks

[@LyonsArcade]

Hi Rotin Pumpkin Haunts I think what that's telling you is some sort of error code, it probably looks like a date but it's actually a code to tell you which switch isn't working. If you can find the manual for one of those grehounds it may say which error code it is... in general one of the switches isn't working probably up top where the wheels move or the string comes back up.

[@magee8481]

Hey Joe, thank you for this video! I just got this same Seeburg recently and it gets stuck on every A-side, midway through. The B-sides play fine. I went to the Jukebox Addicts forum to see if I could find a solution and was disheartened to learn of Mr. Rich’s passing. If you hav any suggestions to help remedy this, I’d truly appreciate it.

[@99ronmarsh]

Allways wanted a old jukebox. There not cheap!

[@LyonsArcade]

The broken ones aren't too expensive but the really nice tube ones that work well and have been serviced... yup, they're a little pricey :)

[@99ronmarsh]

@@LyonsArcade yes your right this one is not far from me, I'd just loveee to have that facebook.com/marketplace/item/645620199594050/

[@Dark_eVader]

Wow it's amazing that they use toroidal cores for the memory just like they used in the older computer systems and also NASA flight computers. It's been a long time since I heard of Carbon Tet (Tetrachloride). It was the main ingredient in the contact cleaners of the days gone by. Great video as always Ron. BTW was TORMAT a short form of TORoid Matrix?

[@LyonsArcade]

I'm not sure if that's what the abbreviation meant but it seems likely :) Thanks for watching Gabz, we appreciate it!

[@selah62]

@@LyonsArcade yes, it's Carbon Tetrachloride but I don't think you can get it anymore? I think it was taken off the market like asbestos.

[@cliffburridge]

Another neat vid! Cheers, fella!

[@LyonsArcade]

Thanks Cliff, see you on the next one!

[@bryanlatimer-davies1222]

NSM in Europe used the same system until they went to opto encoders main issue was as the selections were retained when the machine was turned off it would start playing the previous nights selections when it was powered up the next night

[@LyonsArcade]

I've never messed with the NSM's but I always heard they had fantastic sound.

[@bryanlatimer-davies1222]

@@LyonsArcade the sound was pretty good but they were super reliable we had Rockola, Rowe Ami, and one Seeburg but for ease of Maintenance NSM got my vote

[@chuckg3517]

Where's the pop bumpers?

[@LyonsArcade]

They cut them out and added Rock & Roll!

[@sumplais]

I'm a fan of Gary Puckett and the Union Gap, but John Waite's "Missing You" is far less cringey than "This Girl Is A Woman Now". Thanks for the video.

[@LyonsArcade]

That is a very fair point, LOL. Now if you were going to start talking about Gary Puckett's excellent "Woman (have you got cheating on your mind".... or his excellent "Lady Willpower".... or even his good "Young Girl (get out of my mind)" I'd disagree with you on those three :) Thanks for watching sumplais!

[@pezjohnson]

After getting through the video, I'm surprised we didn't get the pause/creepy music when you originally said WD-40. Good video so far!

[@LyonsArcade]

The quality of this one is pretty bad I filmed it two months ago.... the next one is a lot brighter....

[@shplackalack]

That's the same type of memory used in the Gemini and Apollo Computers, including the Apollo 11 Moon Landing.

[@LyonsArcade]

Very cool!

[@Feslmogh]

Wonder what's the white vinyl 45 is? Wonder if you can retool the Tormat with an Adrino since it uses high and low switches?

[@LyonsArcade]

I'll have to look at that white one in the next video for you.... you could probably redo the Tormat but they work pretty good the way they are.

[@robertisrael338]

Such a innovative memory system for the 50s. Does the front bottom light up?

[@LyonsArcade]

Yes I haven't checked all the bulbs yet though, but there's probably something that shines down over it or something.

[@robertisrael338]

I would love this.

[@LyonsArcade]

it's pretty cool, the next video is brighter and higher definition so you can see it better :)

[@robertisrael338]

@@LyonsArcade awesome can't wait. I love visible mechs too.

[@AiMR]

The four 7199 power tubes are what you need to look at. If you cannot get them reasonably priced there was a guide online to replacing them with a more common tube, but it involves a lot of retrofitting. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqDPZ417q5yZiJY www.ebay.com/itm/2pc-Gold-plated-6U8A-TO-7199-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/201367132458 Obviously you want to avoid this if possible. Also, check the 220 ohm plate resistors on those tubes because they are notorious for going out of spec and causing distortion.

[@LyonsArcade]

Thank you Eric that will be very helpful!

[@strictly45s6]

Hello, does anyone know where the coin mechaninism connector connects to???

[@tomtransport]

WD-40 (water displacement-formula number 40) is the best thing for using on an engine that has the old cap/points/rotor/condenser and wires. If it gets wet (water/rain) take off cap spray WD-40 inside distributor and cap. Spray plug wires from cap to spark plugs. This will "displace" the water and engine will start immediately. We used it at the car dealership when we pressure washed the engines down on trade-ins. Works every time.😆😆😆

[@gregoryclemen1870]

YUP, they worked great when every thing was right, however those units can be a real" hair puller" when they do not work. I thought that the credit add/ subtract relay was a slick idea. also most people do not catch the turn table platter rotation is running backward when scanning from left to right .the drive motor( phase windings are reversed) that operates the tormat scanning, operation also operates the turntable platter. in this case it does not matter, the platter is empty. should it stop to play a record( scanning left to right) the reverse rotation is corrected before the record is picked out of the magazine. I tell people all the time that "W-D 40" is NOT a lubricant, and do not use "3-in-1" oil in the red can----- use the blue can( 20 wt. non detergent oil). I had an individual that he thought that he could repair the amp himself, and recapped it, but did not check any resistors( they tend to drift up in value as the age). decided to put power to the tube heater circuit( why I do not know ???) instead of feeding 6 volts to the heater circuit he fed 120 volts to that circuit, blowing "ALL" the tubes out, and let the smoke out of the amp power transformer. he called me and said" I really did something stupid and you are going to be pissed at me for doing it". when he told me what he did I said "WHAT THE F*** WERE YOU THINKING" I had to locate a replacement transformer, and replace all the tubes, and replaced a bunch of "OUT OF TOLERANCE" resistors( seeburg jukebox) it ran great after that. to all of those people out there trying to repair/ restore their own jukebox, be careful, take your time with it ,and do not be afraid to ask for help when you feel that you are getting in over your head with it. just remember on those "CREAMY" sounding tube amps, the B+ voltage WILL knock you into next year, no kidding it will "LET YOU HAVE IT"!!!!!( depending on the D.C. voltage ,you do not have to find it ----- IT WILL FIND YOU!!!).

[@LyonsArcade]

Ain't that the truth! I'm used to working on arcade monitors and such, and although there is a lot of voltage it's really a different animal when you're working with these tube amps, they're really dangerous, much more so than a CRT in my opinion.... thanks for watching and giving us your info Gregory, we appreciate it!

[@gregoryclemen1870]

@@LyonsArcade the thing about "C.R.T." anode voltage is at 8 to15 k.v., but there is next to no current available on the arcade games, but the tube amps have a lethal dose of current available, and the chassis of the amp is the B+ return path. seeburg also made" background music systems" that were amazing. they played records at 16 R.P.M.( extra large hub), you had to get the records from seeburg .and you had to turn your records in once a month in order to get your next set of records. the unit would play the record in the elevated position so it could play the "B" side when the "A" side was finished playing. one record had a play time of 8 hours. it would take a week to get through the entire stack of records. the unit would reset the stack when all of records had played out, so the unit was a "hands free system". the unit was well built/ easy to work on, and yes it did have a tube amp in it.

[@Frank-vf8qd]

I love jukeboxes

[@tomayrscotland6890]

Hi there, a friend has a Seaburgh Juke box? I live in Scotland, would you send me a manual once I get the Model no:. thanks

[@mikequenzer9100]

do you realize you make video game sounds as you work!!! :)

[@LyonsArcade]

Yes I'm a very noisy person, i'm making noises right now :)

[@toddament8035]

I had a Q-100 at one time but sold it after the amp failed the second time.

[@LyonsArcade]

They're cool but they're no fun if you can't hear them play :)

[@gooberthoreau]

Almost got a thumbs down due to the John Waite - Missing You slam. Come on man, we were all 12 once! That was on many confused child's sad bastard play list.

[@LyonsArcade]

We're all adults now though :)

[@simonmanners4108]

I have a confession to make. I was watching a video from clearly a master of his craft. A million plus subscribers, a man on top of his game a true master of his chosen field. All of a sudden there it was, it was subtle, barely audible and yet clearly a wrong statement. Was this a deliberate trap to ensnare the unwitting? A means of luring his prey in. My mouth went dry, my fingers quivered over the cool and smooth keyboard, is this my moment of greatness. With a single smooth sweeping statement I could denounce this true master as being wrong. I could end up a true legend, a god, a man of importance. But what if I was wrong and the trap was set and I fell into it. I would be destroyed under the weight of the scathing masses eager to capitalise on another’s wrong assumption. The moment passed, I chose to diminish and go into the west.

[@LyonsArcade]

Lol your sarcasm is getting better as time goes on 😀

[@moodyga40]

there fun to work on i worked on the valve ones

[@lascheque]

Funny that the Tormat explanation is on page 1-1-0

[@LyonsArcade]

Good eye :)

[@Lightning666]

2:57 There is a hint under number buttons)))

[@LyonsArcade]

I took that off lol

[@ΚαρτάληςΒασίλειος]

How much it cost?

[@moodyga40]

all the coupling caps will need changing

[@LyonsArcade]

That's next time :)

[@80sretrogamergamingarchive90]

Owww I read phonography wrong I was expecting some half naked women in the video 😂

[@LyonsArcade]

That's in the NEXT video, stay tuned :)

[@80sretrogamergamingarchive90]

Joe's Classic Video Games hell yeah maybe you could fix them 😂

[@kaimauracher6758]

very funny how you ignore sign wich tells you to choose numbers first 🥳

[@moodyga40]

2A3 amp ones mono sound good

[@izzynutz2000]

The H stands for horizontal

[@frankbachmann6405]

The H stands for half dollar. That machine accepted half dollar coins

[@lascheque]

Ron, could you please make a bad video? I need something to complain about, people know me for that!

[@LyonsArcade]

LOL You can just complain like everybody else, no need for the video to suck for you to find something to complain about :)