Reserved List Lie Part 2

Be sure to check out the new KZbin channel I'm doing with Open Boosters, Unhinged Magi!
/ @unhingedmagi
This video is part 2 of my response video to Tolarian Community Colleges Reserved List video:
• The Reserve List is a ...
The original TCC RL video:
• The Reserved List Is A...
=== HOW TO CONTACT EDWIN ===
Email: [e-mail]
PO Box 2333
Windermere, FL 34786
/ edwin_the_magic_engineer

[@ericliu8488]

The imperial seal is an even better comparable than the imperial recruiter. Here’s a card that goes well in a lot of decks and was easily going above 1K before reprint and price dropped 40% around 2016. It’s made some of that back but definitely not where it would be at if it had never been reprinted. The revised duel lands could easily suffer the same fate if they were reprinted.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

indeed, that might be a better example.

[@deeterful]

Berserk got a reprint and the reprint is like a $45 card while the ABU versions have maintained most of their value. Turns out Berserk is not a highly sought after card for play.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@deeterful That's not correct. Berserk was always a huge card, an iconic card MTG. Berserk was on it's way to much higher values which got stunted by reprints. It would be a complicated mess to lay out the timeline and show prices and events. But if you don't understand the reprints of Berserk were already priced in and stunting it's growth then you are not looking hard enough.

[@medrare2370]

@Eric Liu I understand the whole idea of the reserved list and for the most part, I'm all for it but in my opinion, the dual lands have no business being on there in the first place. The prices on them have gotten so ridiculous that even if there was a 40% price drop, the investors would still make money off of them. I understand the value of the old school reserved list cards but from a player's perspective, there is no reason for duals to be on there because they are nowhere near as powerful as any other card from OS (I'm sticking to old school because they are the only cards I know, I haven't played in 20 some years) that's on the reserved list.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@medrare2370 The Reserved List is not about power...many cards on the list are absolute trash. Don't make that connection because it's not the history. The Reserved List was about secondary market value. But even with that it's very odd which cards they picked... Some on the list never had high values.

[@jaywinner328]

I believe these multiple references to Ben Kenobi are actually pleasant kenobi.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Ah is that his name? My Bad. Well his video is linked in my video.

[@jotv7224]

mtg lion and desolator are very good at talking with supreme confidence about things that are completely false and untrue. its very inspiring honestly.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Unfortunately this is true.

[@englishwithphil42]

I am currently studying Contract Law and what you say is 100% true.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I wish more MTG KZbinrs understood it because when they make a video about RL breaking... all they do is get hundreds of thousands of people upset over something that is not going to change.

[@MTGUnpacked]

You've hit the nail on the head. The risk far outweighs the reward, so there's no way they'll be reprinting these cards. There's far more easy money for them to make from Secret Lair and flashy variants of non-reserved list cards.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

exactly!

[@ericliu8488]

One solution would be to reprint classic cards in non-standard size so that these cards can’t be mixed in with regular ones and have them as a boxed set so people can play with them as a game but not affecting the price of “real cards”. Like the oversized cards behind you, but a bit smaller so can be handheld, I’d say that would be kind of neat. A special anniversary set for 2023 (30th anniversary) would be cool. Heck I’d buy 4 sets each!

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

That could work... very interesting idea.

[@stevekeenan9673]

Like a 3x5 collectors ed box set of 4 horseman or collectors silver border for draft when mtgfests reopen...full circle 93 to 2023

[@mornon79]

What about a brand new Collectors Edition with silver borders on the back? Would it break the Reserved List promise too?

[@ericperry2032]

Most people don’t know the difference between stare decisis and staring decisively.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

stare decisis is for sure what precedent is based upon. I think that was MTG Lion's point and it's correct that courts do that. However to compare a 24 year long case of Promissory Estoppel with many many public declarations made with full market knowledge over the term, and BILLIONS of potential damages... to just some other willy nilly case that involved Promissory Estoppel is an extremely weak point and I believe would fail a test of precedent. There would need to be something pretty similar in the past used for a case study for precedent.

[@codyhumble7855]

Great Videos, edwin. Just watched parts 1 and 2. Great job sharing your screen to viewers to show them the tools you use to point out times and prices, ESPECIALLY the mtggoldfish price history tool. I use that tool all the time. A lot can be learned from charts like that. Most of the people who beg for the reserved list to be gone are people with little-to-no funds who dream about owning cards like black lotus, and know that the only way they can afford one is if it went to $50 or lower. They then advocate for the change, and bark about the 'reasons' to make that change that they want. You do a good job of explaining how even though it's not what those people want, that the people who make MTG don't care about what those people say - because those people are not the ones who have invested in the mtg product at stake. Wizards/Hasbro cares about the low-spending players when it comes to standard, pioneer, and sometimes commander (or similar formats). My $100 doesn't make a difference to the reserved list argument because there is too much money at risk to be lost if even only a small fraction of reserved list cards were reprinted. Another point that could be made is that even if they did only reprint a small portion of reserved list cards, the prices of other cards would immediately be affected because there would be questions as to whether the rest would also be reprinted eventually. People think that the prices of cards are what they are, and that the reserved list just protects the current prices. The price of alpha/beta/unlimited reserved list cards is a result of the reserved list, not the other way around. Great job, and thank you for interjecting your educated views into the community. I unsubscribed from the Professor/Kenobi over a year ago because all they do is cater to their fans, regardless of what the fans want 90% of the time. That results in a lot of ignorant statements, and a lot of ignorant people who point to those people as references to bolster their view. As if quoting your favorite youtuber makes you more correct. That's a product of our culture. It's present in everything from mtg to politics. People just parrot their favorite media mouthpiece and assert that people who disagree are stupid or malicious. Most people would never be willing to spend the time it takes to find tools like the mtggoldfish price history pages, or the dates when cards got reprinted. That is why people like you are more rare in the content creation world, because when you're not just catering to the mass of ignorance, you lose a lot of customers. Thanks for being diligent and caring about finding the truth behind the argument. We need more people like you in this world.

[@Wiseguy150]

A year late here but I just happened to rewatch the Profs video out of boredom the other day and rediscovered my old comment on it that was never replied to but Curious what you think about it? Basically I said a year ago regarding potential price drops and people still wanting OG versions of duals, that I didn't quite agree with that argument because let's face it, if they ever did reprint duals they would likely be available in foil, perhaps with the vintage masters art, and if that's the case, couldn't there be an argument that THOSE new versions become the most sought after causing older versions to plummet? Especially revised, as you mentioned? Two examples I think are relevant: look at sol ring and demonic tutor. I believe both used to be on the reserved list but got taken off right? Both have had multiple reprints and both are extremely highly played, might even be comparable to duals in popularity. But look at the fancy kaladesh invention sol ring and the Japanese strixhaven archive tutor. Those are literally the highest priced versions of each card besides alpha/beta. Hell I even bought the original judge promo tutor years ago and even that has lost value compared to the strixhaven version. So I'm basically disagreeing that duals reprints would raise prices of originals, no way. In fact you'd know Wotc would make foil duals so rare that they could easily be 3rd highest priced, ultimately crashing the white border versions. In short, I agree they will never touch the RL because they don't have to. They can literally print money these days with secret lair and drive any worthwhile card down in price with a fancy version.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Some people would like new versions, some would prefer originals. That is one balancing act. Then reprints might open up some formats to allow duals, creating more demand for all. Then a fear based sell off could happen right when reprints are announced All of these things mash together in a pot and a market price eventually emerges. Long story short, it's not simple

[@Blickooo]

Where can I purchase one of those T shirts you are wearing? I really really like it a lot!

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Khols online!

[@djjmandos]

I'm late to the party, but I wanted to say that this was a great video - thank you. Two questions in case you still stumble across this. (1) How far do you think that WOTC can and will go in approaching functional reprints? E.g. Can they print a land even closer to, but not equivalent to, a dual land than say a shock land? Do you think WOTC can simply ban reserve list cards from formats where they seem to generate the most ill will (Commander). I ask because these options seem like two different ways WOTC can diminish the value of many RL cards (particularly Revised printings).

[@sharktenko267]

$50? yeah most likely not i could see them maybe again dropping $20-$30 depending on how wizards would decide to reprint the cards

[@sharktenko267]

and this is my issue witht he investment side of MTG investment comes with risk, the removal of risk leads to inflation which is where we are now card with as high of pricetags as those might as well be $0 becuase youll never find someone to buy it for those insane prices

[@clovisfavarim4876]

Despite the (real) possibility that damages may occur to the company, that there is an implicit contract, etc., it is also a relevant legal fact that contracts and obligations are subject to revision and should not, in the absolute majority of cases, be thought to become eternal (perpetuated in time indefinitely) especially if, over time, different dynamics have arisen and the situation of the parties in the obligatory relationship has become disproportionate in relation to that which existed when the agreement was signed in the first place. I say this because, in my opinion, the company can get rid of the reserved list in a relatively safe way by adopting two postures (of course, many other protection mechanisms can and should be considered, but these two ideas are the first that occur to me): First, starting to gradually remove batches of less valuable cards from the list, a little per year, in order to make the list leaner and more limited to the really "problematic" cards (in terms of market value); and, Second, why not make an announcement putting a deadline, a date for the end of the "promise" (it could be ten, fifteen, twenty years), so as to be able to argue that that "promise reaffirmed again and again" has changed in a certain moment and that this was done in such a way as to allow the interested parties (and the market) time to prepare for the closure of the agreement, prepare their finances and investments and, on the one hand, not be able to claim to have been taken by surprise with the closure of the list and, on the other hand, so that the final closure of the agreement (decades after it was announced and of a much shorter list) does not have that much impact on the values. Just a thought.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

You are missing the point. It was a promise to never do something in order to protect secondary market values. Even them mentioning they are considering a reprint could cause damages and trigger a lawsuit. Just in the same way Apple could not threaten to shut down Samsungs manufacturing plant without risking legal damages for the statement. And it does not matter that the reasons for the list have changed. The promise and risk is unchanged. A reprint could trigger damages... period. End of story.

[@clovisfavarim4876]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer first of all thank you very much for the quick response. Now let me ask: doesn't it seem like WotC ended up being held hostage to its promise and the secondary market in a seemingly irreversible way (or so painfully reversible that it amounts to the same thing)? I mean, if the company for some reason sees some use in changing such a promise or revoking it, that becomes irrelevant, since, in fact, as things stand, the decision is no longer for the company to make (the company can no longer make that decision even if it wanted to). Doesn't it seem like a situation that has become unbalanced by various factors and whose perpetuity over time will only accentuate this imbalance? In fact, the risk has not remained the same, it has grown proportionally to the value of the cards on the reserved list (and will only increase every year), that is, it is a bubble: the more time that passes, the greater the financial risk and also the greater the risk of a legal condemnation before the repeated "renewal of the promise", right? I imagine that the company's thinking must go through "I wish I had gotten rid of this list sooner" or "that it hadn't even been done in the first place" and end up in a "what to do, right? If it can't be solved, it's solved ", but this conclusion only reinforces that the company has become hostage to its creation. All reprints affect prices, the only difference with the reprints of the reserved list in particular is that one day it was promised that THESE CARDS would not be reprinted, but the promise turned out to be naive since, in fact, what is read between the lines is not "we are not going to reprint the reserved list" but rather that "parallel market prices can rest assured that they will not be affected by our company under penalty of the company being financially responsible for any losses"... A rather silly promise, isn't it? thanks again for the exchange of ideas and Congratulations on the interesting topic brought.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@clovisfavarim4876 Thanks for the kind answer. But you are really over complicating it. The promise was not made with stipulations, it had no defined limits in time or allowances for when it can be violated or broken. It was a very simple promise that's hard to get around. "We will not reprint these cards in legally playable functionally identical form" Reasons for it, intended purpose helps describe the promise but does not change the promise. They cannot get around it without risking a lawsuit... period. That does not mean the lawsuit will win, but the lawsuit has a maximum total damages over 10 billion for something that even sold in the best way might make a few extra million? Nobody with any sense would approve that trade. Look up a video by a legal law youtuber named "KZbinr Law" where he covers the RL from a legal perspective. He makes it very clear.

[@mtgspirulin8742]

Respect Edwin, you are 100% correct.

[@MrHabenero]

I'm sorry to hear that people were attacking you for your previous video, I personally thought it was well presented and totally reasonable in fact, that's what made me want to come back and hear you further delve into it in this video. The sad truth of the matter is, there are some people you can't please, some people who are so lost in the hope of obtaining these cards that their logic is blinded by it, and there are some people that assume you have attacked somebody that they idolize, logic be damned. I'll admit, yes I would love to own some of the nearly impossible to acquire Reserved List cards, but I'm aware that it's a waste of time and energy to be angry about it, and I can play Magic just fine without them, or I just run proxies, which is fine as well. If the Reserved List were to be in the game forever, I'm pretty positive that I'll be just fine. Even so, keep on keeping on, and don't fret about the haters, your content is great.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

This post is a breath of fresh air. Thank you! THIS is why I made this video. To help other plays focus their valuable time and energy into better places.

[@beno3686]

Edwin! I know you collect all renditions on the black lotus, will you be acquiring this new commander lotus even at the high price point or will you wait it out?

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Hey there Be No. I will get one at some point :)

[@ryanthompson4770]

It's the simple truth. Thanks Edwin.

[@SoloFan87]

All I will add to this situation in which there a was similar situation ,check out Frank Miller vs Marvel. It will pretty much answer everything conserving the RL. However I can see both points of views on this situation.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I see both points of view from a perspective like what we wish could happen... But from the legal and business perspective there is literally no chance.

[@chasewolford6779]

I’m poor and not the smartest person, but at least years ago I had the sense of collecting RL cards hoping one day I can sell out and have a better life.

[@sharktenko267]

ok and thats you, and your risk, you shouldnt have invested without expecting alittle risk

[@einoseikkula1847]

Another thing that demands a price on a card is it being iconic, especially when it comes to collectables. For example lightning bolt and birds of paradise and even an island. Those are cards that keep their worth because the worth doesnt come from the other factors except for playability.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Absolutely TRUE. And both Shivan and Birds are DEFINITELY iconic cards that command value just for that trait.

[@einoseikkula1847]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer and comparing beta demonic tutor for animate dead. Demonic tutor sees less play i think due its narrow legality in formats but its so iconic that its double in price. Ofc this is an assumptuon, each edh player needs a demonic tutor but how many actually wants it beta. Legacy reanimator players are widely known for pimping decks so there beta is not a surprise.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@einoseikkula1847 It's absolutely an incorrect assumption that Demonic Tutor sees less play. It's a huge card in any format it's allowed in, which also includes Old School and Vintage. Beyond that, people usually have many of them because if you have black in a deck you are playing it and people have multiple decks.

[@michaeldries5436]

Good discussion I thought you might have mentioned a 2nd collectors set since the cards aren't legal.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

That kind of option was discussed in other videos :) I really wish WoTC would do that, but every time they are asked about it they seem to give a really solid No.

[@fly9646]

Ok, maybe I'm late to the party, but I watched all of the 3 videos right now (TCC and these two), and I want to ask... Why keep cards that have no value on the reserve list? For example Elkin Lair, it's now at 3~4$ Nobody is investing there. Of course it will be a change on the reserve list, but as we've seen changes can be made, specially on cards that have no impact on investors. As players, we all agree that the reserve should disappear, but it's not going to happen unless the market has a really big and impossible crash. But by reducing the number of cards on the reserve list we free those cards for later reprints. This is valuable for players and doesn't affect investors. On the other hand, while watching this I've been thinking about what you said about using proxies. I think this would affect the market and lower some prices. I would like to add that banning (not restricting, but banning) reserve list cards on formats other than vintage would allow players to enjoy older sets, which would also decrease the price. So, if we mix these 3 things, we get cards with no value leaving the reserve list and lower prices. In the end, we would end in a point in which only the cards that investors care are in the reserve list... Which wouldn't be a big deal to the players because those cards would be banned in legacy

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Thanks for watching the videos. You have missed the point that NOTHING can change on the Reserve List without potentially triggering a lawsuit. Yes there are in fact many terrible cards on the list that nobody really cares about... HOWEVER even one of those cards coming off the list is violation of the legal agreement (via P.E. law) and WOULD be taken as a direct threat to other cards coming off in the future. There is literally three official formats where Reserve List cards create a problem. Vintage, Legacy and Commander. You must realize that Vintage and Legacy are hopeless to ever be balanced and cheap. A format with nearly anything ever allowed will always discover the most unexpected broken strategies and those will dominate over everything else that is also not broken. They have also been known for decades to be expensive and now people have 2+ decades of putting their hard earned money into them and it's not right for those people to crush prices. The format that validly needs the help is Commander and most specifically for the Dual Lands. There are turn 3 win decks all the time in that format that don't need to run a single Reserved List card, so it's hard to say RL cards break the format. It would be nice if duals could be made more available, but it's not breaking/crushing the format. It's mind boggling how many multi-color land options there are now for Commander. It's very hard to argue that any decks are severely disturbed by expensive duals. In addition, I think nearly all Commander players forget that format (Traditional EDH) was NOT created be competitive. It was created to be FUN. 100 card highlander decks were MEANT to be inconsistent. MEANT to be filled with your favorite FUN cards. It was the one and only Casual format. People doing competitive Commander is a bit like people racing riding lawn mowers. Finally, I'm a full and complete supporter of proxies. They REMOVE the barrier to entry for players into casual player-ran formats. Nobody wants proxies, they just make due with them until they can get real cards. Proxies actually bring people INTO formats, eventually turning them into buyers and driving prices higher. Not because they have to... but because they WANT to. That's the right reason for collectibles to go up. Not out of need, but from want. If proxies are legal, then a player has NO RIGHT to complain about real cards still going up in value. And those cards going up in value is exactly what investors/collectors want. Proxies are a win/win. It's just that people cannot seem to wrap their heads around it. Collectors fear them (they fear a value drop) and players secretly don't want them... so players rage about not being able to play... then suddenly go SILENT when you suggest making proxies legal. Because most of them secretly just want REAL cards, they just don't want to publicly admit that was a big part of their rage.

[@Possu81]

I feel professor didn't really understand the topic well and Ben Kenobi kinda corrected him. The worst facepalm moments at professor's video were the examples. Thanks for pointing this out.

[@speaksincircles]

Whats that song at the end?

[@gmgrudgemonster6051]

Thanks for covering this with such depth. I learned quite a bit from this. =)

[@michaeldries5436]

When is the new channel going live?

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

It's live now! kzbin.info/door/73lE9uCgI-dt2Rrrwdd9og

[@lewman187]

PleasantKenobi, Ben Kenobi is from Star Wars

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

thanks for the correction :)

[@patmacrotch5611]

Since the boom at the beginning of this year, if you have a playset of duals you have probably $10,000+ in dual lands now. If that dropped to a few hundred to couple thousand because of reprints, you would absolutely hop on a class action suit to get your money back. Absolutely! And there are tons of people out there with playsets of duals who would happily hop onto that suit, getting almost $8,000+ is totally worth it.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

indeed

[@stevekeenan9673]

Pavel Malachi was the slabd card, no? Man legends, beta were it

[@Xenocyde3000]

Not sure where you got the info that Masters 25 Imperial Recruiter was spoiled in February 2017. The spoilers for the Masters 25 set happened a few weeks before the actual release, so around early March 2018. Imperial Recruiter was even among the last cards to be spoiled.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I showed the exact article in the video and you could see the date in the video.

[@jaywinner328]

www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2017/06/masters-25-magic-gathering-spoilers-news-updates/ is the page and it has dates for each set of spoilers.

[@Xenocyde3000]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer The article is clearly wrong. Masters 25 was officially announced on June 14 2017. They couldn't have released spoilers before the announcement. Also, if you look closely on the MTG Stocks graph, you can see when the card dipped the most, exactly a few weeks prior to the release.

[@MTGUnpacked]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Take a look at the comment someone made in 2018, noting that they'd screwed up the year. It was definitely 2018.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@Xenocyde3000 If that article had a typo which mislead me then perhaps that's the case. I would have to dig deeper to see why IR started dropping around that date... BUT let's not lose focus on the main point. The main point was to search out better examples of cards that match Reserve List card attributes for comparison. Alpha Shivan Dragon and Birds of Paradise have high values for reasons other then RL. All that proves... is that more then just RL adds value to old cards. It does NOT prove that REMOVAL of RL protection would not cause a price drop. That was my original point in the first video.

[@DVS57REBEL]

That voltron on your shelf is a cool reprint but nothing beats the original die-cast lol 🤩 The cards people actually want to play with on the rl list won't be as affordable as they imagine. And I treat pre 7th edition and more so abu 4horseman sets as collectible was sold to me as a teen in 90s as a collectible card game not a reprintable card game. Un popular opinion, add cards to reserved list //at very least add certain arts to a retired list, on more modern stuff so it adds collectability back into the game

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Adding cards to the reserve list is a topic that Open Booster, Daniel Chang and I discussed a few times on previous videos. That would have given a whole different way for new players to gain value and trade new cards for old cards.

[@DVS57REBEL]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer im pretty sure I've seen it at some point but ill look for it. Hopefully deck tech videos soon .

[@ericliu8488]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer curious what that voltron figure that is? Soul of Chogokin?

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@ericliu8488 It's the Lego Voltron kit, very well made!

[@291bossman]

Am I the only one thinking the whole video, man.....I really want his shirt lol. Jokes aside, I believe the reserve list is here to stay. Love it or hate it, Edwin did make many valid points.

[@TimmytheSorcerer]

Nice balanced reply Edwin. Now let's move on to the real important topic, have you already build a Halloween deck? ;)

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Hi Thomas!! I have been so busy pumping out videos for the new channel I have not had time.

[@balaam_7087]

I don’t know enough about this topic to post anything, but I feel bad you got nasty comments.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I think that was disappointing too

[@WakeUpUniverse66]

Should i bail?

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

what do you mean?

[@coolguyxoxo]

Sell?

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I'm definitely not suggesting selling Old School cards. I am personally still buying those. I don't have long term hope for all the newer stuff holding value though

[@mojosodope45]

I’ll buy your cards.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@mojosodope45 You'll buy my new cards? or were you talking to the other 2 guys saying you'll buy their old cards? Yeah I'm definitely not selling my old cards.

[@Mrtfarrugia]

So if I ever wanted to own Magic the Gathering I should purchase the intellectual property and not WOTC then.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

This specific video is not talking about what to invest in, or not invest it. This video is dispelling what the Professor put out there. That the RL can or will ever be broken.

[@Mrtfarrugia]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer i know. If you buy the magic intellectual property then I could do what I want with it, if I bought WOTC I would be limited by what I could do with it. It's more a work around if a company wanted to purchase Magic. This way if a hypothetical company decided to reprint any reserved list cards they would be able to be sued because they did not make any promises. An example of this is when the WWE bought WCW. They bought the film library, name, Pay per view names but left the actual company that way they avoided the lawsuits that were against the company.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@Mrtfarrugia That's not how it works, sorry. If it was that easy to avoid liability you would see that trick being played all the time.

[@liamb5697]

Great video man! Couldn't agree more.

[@psychozen7169]

Shame on you for not doing this for profit lol

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I'm ashamed lol

[@Mrtfarrugia]

Pleasant Kenobi. Not Ben Kenobi.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I'm getting that correction a lot lol! Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@Mrtfarrugia]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer yeah you can't call him "Old Ben" Kenobi though since he's only 21. 😁

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@Mrtfarrugia lol

[@coolguyxoxo]

People will hate on what others have earned. Its pathetic and sad. Keep making content.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Will do!

[@adolphus28]

Most haven't earnt anything in terms of actual work,you just bought in at the right time.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@adolphus28 That's the entire ppint of investing. It's not sweat labor... it's risking your money to do the work for you.

[@deeterful]

Come on Edwin, Shivan Dragon only sees play in limited and in Old School. The values of ABU versions are completely tied to the collectability of those sets, not playability of the card. The same holds true for Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends. Many of the reprints of cards from those sets are worthless compared to the originals. But not with all reprints, I’ll admit that a few of the cards reprinted from those sets do hold a descent value, I venture tied to playability. Shit, I lost the point I was trying to make, or was I even trying to make one, LOL. I do agree with you that the Prof’s video stirred up a bunch of useless rage. It’s a good thing that WOTC is plagued with issues that piss off the community because everyone is so pissed off about the Walking Dead Secret Lair they’ve completely move on from RL rage. Hell, as my grandpa used to say, with this video, you’re a day late and a dollar short. People are now trying to figure out how Commander Legends is going to affect their little worlds.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

you are forgetting a concept known as "halo effect" in finance. If a handful of 5 star cards spike way up in value in a set, other 1-3 star cards will even get a second look by buyers due to the Halo Effect. You are looking a market price too narrowly and ignoring the impact that different factors have on each other, much less the fact that factors supporting market price will be priced in if they go away. Start a rumor that somebody died in a house... price will drop. It just lost the trait of "not haunted". If a companies CEO is caught cooking the books for tax reporting even one time... that will be priced into the stock because trust is lost. If a card loses the protection of RL... it would drop. And no, an eventual recovery of price is NOT a case of "no damage done" If you really think that is no damage done... then you don't understand the lives ruined in the 2008 crisis either.

[@adolphus28]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer a hypothetical RL reprint drop is relative to the 2008 financial crisis? Right...

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@adolphus28 you are taking it out of context. I clearly did not mean they relate in every way. The analogy was that even though both housing and stocks recovered some people were financially destoyed. The entire point I'm making is that the TIME something takes to recover matters a lot.

[@flawedmemory]

You are aware that mtglion is a lawyer right?

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

yes indeed. Which is what makes it shameful that tries to compare this situation to completely different smaller cases for 1/1000000 of the total damages.

[@su-chi5081]

I don't understand why ppl so angry in Germany nobody cry about the list I enjoy the value increases.

[@MusicalBoarder]

There are no damages. Wotc does not recognize secondary market prices of cards. They can absolutely say that there is no loss of money. Also the fact that this isn't like investing in stock. This is a game, and wotc is selling game pieces. If there is any sort of monetary loss, then the loss would be the value of the cards at the time of printing. So it would be a loss of pennies not thousands of dollars per card. Because everyone who has these cards wotc will argue they have had the cards since their printings. So you spent $25 on a black lotus in 1993? Excellent, here's $15, sorry for your loss. You say determined market price and d tutor wasnt expensive when it was taken off the list? Ya well 15 years ago none of the cards were expensive. Alpha and beta d tutor is still expensive af, or you can buy recent printings of them for $30. Playable card, was on reserve list, original prints are still expensive. So your argument for origi al copies going down in price is absolutely bullshit. How can you actually be so dense to not see this. Your arguments are so biased it is actually just laughable to think that your arguments are valid.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

almost everything you wrote is wrong. As proof... watch the RL never break.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

For example... you clearly know nothing about legal damages. Legal damages are based off fair market value as the general rule. There would need to be special reasons to not base damages off fair market value. And it DOES NOT MATTER if the party who did the damages (WoTC) realizes it or not. It's not up to them. It's up to the fair market value of the asset they damaged. Here: www.mccmlaw.com/news-and-articles/articles/fair-market-value-rule-the-measure-of-sellers-damages-for-buyers-breach-of-real-estate-deal What's funny is not my video. It's somebody like you coming in here spouting completely incorrect legal knowledge and then using that attack what I said in the video.

[@MusicalBoarder]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer using real estate to compare to a card game. Ah yes. Clearly nothing could be more similar. Pathetic attempt really at explaining the concept when it has no bearing on pieces of cardboard.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@MusicalBoarder it has nothing to do with real estate. Legal damages are calculated based on present fair market value. Not purchase price.

[@MusicalBoarder]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer and the fair market value according to wotc is 0. The most woukd be the cost of each individual card per pack. $5 a pack, 15 cards, $.33 a card. There. That's the value. Congratulations. Anything else is artificial. You wanna treat it like a stock? Then everyone who has participated in buyouts in order to artificially increase the price has committed a crime. You wanna compare old cards to their newer versions? Fork and reverberate. Alpha fork is thousands. Reverberate is $3. Same card except reverberate doesnt make everything red. Wow. Almost like reprinting has no effect on the value of older cards in the long run. Huh, how about that. articles.starcitygames.com/2020/03/13/why-its-time-to-remove-the-reserved-list-and-how-id-do-it/ Keeping the reserve list is a joke. Period. Wotc stopped support for vintage and legacy because no one was playing it. It was the same old guys who played in the beginning every time. Wanna bring support back for those formats? Every card can be a proxy. Wotc has no incentive not to do this. They dont make money on people buying old cards. People wanna complain because they spent thousands on a real deck? Hey guess what, you got scammed thousands of dollars for cardboard glue and ink. Congratulations. You said you had a $70k vintage/legacy deck. Did you spend that much on it? Are you intending to sell it? If no to either of these you did not lose value. If you bought the entirety of the deck in 93/94 you spent what couple hundred dollars? Congratulations. No matter how they reprint all those cards, i guarantee you came out with more value than you put in due to the artificial inflation. So what exactly would you be suing for if you 'made money' hmm?

[@sw-zl6dw]

I would argue over 90% of the RL no one would really care to see reprints on. farmstead, sorrows path, wood elemental, mightstone, weakstone are some examples. Quite a few can still be had for fairly cheap. It is the ones that even if you got into mtg back in early parts of 94 you were most likely already too late --> power 9, time vault, several cards out of AN, AQ. Most of these are what I would call broken/op cards (Legends and on have a few for sure as well). They were not reprinting those cards in 94 and up till they issued the official reprint policy. Revised did contain duals and wheel of fortune which carry a large tag. Revised also has rock hydra, anyone willing to pay a premium for that? RL seems to have been taken to mean it will cost $, which is not always the case. It may be a factor in cost as you mention, and may not mean anything at all. With cards from over printed/under powered sets like fe/homelands, being on the RL does not help too much cards no one really wants/cares about/plays. Many factors at work on pricing, glad you bring that aspect and mention several of them. Still, I would trash 90% of the RL if I could and leave the cards they weren't reprinting before there was the RL. I wish i was biased in that i had those sooooper powered cards. I do not. Trust that I was ticked when I wanted to get Unlimited and it was sold out. Had to wait for Revised only to learn they yanked a ton of the powerful cards (and some not so). Never had a chance at ABU and AN, only saw a handful of AN and AQ cards hit the secondary market back then. It sucked. I understand why folks hate they cant get the power cards off the RL due to price/availability. This is not a new feeling

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Wrong sir... wrong. If ANYTHING on the RL got reprinted or even HINTED at getting reprinted the prices would plummet due to fear of others soon to follow.

[@LordJaroh]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I would argue that prices would plummet, but then rise again when other cards were shown not to be reprinted. It would be the same effect we see in Masters sets. Prices would fall a bit for a time, and then would rise based on demand. While cards not reprinted would rise even more.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@LordJaroh I fully agree they would plummet then rise again. Fear based sell offs really often overshoot the real supply-demand based market price. The question is... how deep would the sell off be, and how much would the recovery be? My personal opinion... after literally talking to hundreds of the very people holding these cards... is the sell off would vary per card (case by case) but some would drop 80% and never recover. Some would drop 30% and come back 10%. That kind of scenario.

[@LordJaroh]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Which is what I believe too. And the duals being the #1 want for the repeal or the retraction of the reserve list shows the demand for these cards would not make the card lower in price much for long. I do believe the Revised versions would be hurt the most, but ABU would hardly be touched. But for the price of those cards losing a bit of value allowing more people to play legitimately would be a huge boon to the game as a whole.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@LordJaroh Don't forget that absent of a no-reprint promise the supply and demand impact would play a huge role. If WoTC barely reprinted them... they would be taking the risk of lawsuit for nearly no sales benefit. That would not make sense for them. On the other hand, if WoTC reprinted millions of each of them, they would get a lift in sales but then the value would get destroyed more. That... is a lose lose situation for them. Because the more value lost, the larger the lawsuit. ABU would drop the least... but you must think about how much higher those cards rose based on the RL promise. That higher value based on RL promise is higher then you think.

[@jotv7224]

there is nothing more tired than people complaining about old magic cards being to expensive and the reserved list. the people who want these cards reprinted clearly need over powered badly designed cards that create unbalanced game play so why not just print better versions of these reserved list cards and make them commander legal only. print a zero mana green enchantment that taps and adds three of all colors. why not. have fun. break the game. there is no rule against printing cards like this and commander players now have access and don't need to care about the reserved list. i really don't even get what the big deal is. who are these people who complain? ohh boo hoo you can't play paper vintage or legacy formats for cards printed before most players were reading. these are expert level formats that are broken and unbalanced for very long term hardcore magic fans. if you aren't that you can always play these formats on mtgo for normal prices. I can't imagine why this is an issue? i really don't get it does wizards even support vintage and legacy? who cares.. and then commander is a casual format. if your friends don't let you use proxies find new friends or just use the million other options they have for the slot. they even printed the duals for commander. what is it that people want or are complaining about at this point. if legacy ended up an online only format who cares the cards were printed so long ago at this point and this game is changing every year with a million different ways to play it. there aren't even reserved list cards in modern and modern is an ageing format as well that has lost support on and off over time. . what do people really need these cards reprinted for? there is so much passion behind this and all arguments surrounding the subject on all sides and its confusing to me why. i feel like around 2005 was the time to move away from caring about this and then 2010 and then 2015 and now im wondering why and how this still has any energy behind it. most cards on the reserved list are absolutely garbage and not necessary for game play. the ones that are good are broken. badly designed cards that create unbalanced game play and sour players. if they make a mistake they don't need to print that mistake again a million times so everyone has it. if you are a collector and cant get them why should they care? there are so many magic cards it should be incredibly difficult to near impossible to assemble a complete collection. i just dont get this topic. it makes people act weird. just go play magic its good. pack battle the new sets and draft.

[@agarcn6704]

Personally I think the old guard for magic use the reserve list as way to gatekeep to keep the poors out of their format. This is probably not true for everyone but it is certainly how it feels sometimes.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

I'm being 100% honest with you as a person who owns those cards, knows a huge % of the people who own those cards, and spends a lot of time talking to them about this topic. There ARE in fact many people with crazy collections that get a rush out of being an elite member of MTG both in that their collection creates envy and also because they get an unfair advantage in formats that allow those cards. Sure, those people do exist. But... (and this is going to blow your mind...) that EXACT SAME MENTALITY is shared by literally 10,000% more people in the less expensive formats. Even people who only played standard. What I'm making clear to you is that people love to have attention and they love to have an unfair advantage. It's NOT a "RL topic" like you seem to think it is... it's human nature. Having said that, I personally think it's a selfish and immoral viewpoint to want to win with your wallet. That's the reason I've advocated for proxies for decades. Ok... now that I've clearly stated all that, let me circle back to the RL Promise WoTC made. NONE of that matters to the RL topic in terms of whether or not WoTC will reprint. They never will. If they do they open themselves up for billions in damages and it literally could bankrupt them.

[@agarcn6704]

@@EdwintheMagicEngineer firstly I really want to thank you for the great and thoughtful reply. I agree that most of this does not matter to WOTC. I think the best path forward for all of the magic community (which people are slowly coming around to) is for proxies to be permitted in more organized play events for older formats. I think the stigma behind them is really hurting legacy and vintage as a whole. My particular store has adopted using proxies in older formats. Like you said it’s human nature to want attention. I have seen that in my job with working in a mental health related field. Again thanks for great response.

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

@@agarcn6704 I would LOVE to hear about it if your local store does start supporting proxies. Please do circle back and give me updates if that happens. I want to hear the good and the bad so I can continue to speak about the topic with actual knowledge about it. Cheers.