Resolving The Jamo Concert 8 Controversy

[@MechAdv]

Kudos to you Danny. I’m glad that you’re willing to do your due diligence and reinvestigate based on viewer feedback. It might be a great opportunity to put together a video regarding voice coil replacement, and ferrofluid replacement if that’s what the original drivers need to be restored to factory specifications.

[@cmc2234]

Well, if Danny really wants to "resolve" the issue, he should purchase the new tweeter himself to compare measurements. For him to sit here and STILL claim (that maybe) the Frequency measurements on the new replacement tweeter go from 10 kHz to 15 kHz therefore he was correct all along, is completely asinine! The algorithmic Frequency Graph on the Seas Excel Tweeter T25CF001 goes from 10 kHz to 20 kHz. PERIOD! END OF STORY! For Danny to double down like this and act as if he doesn't know this is very disappointing and a BIG hit on his credibility.

[@MechAdv]

@@cmc2234 Yeah I dunno where he got that idea that the SEAS graph shows a roll off. There’s a 1-2db dip at 14khz, but it comes back to level at 15khz out to 20khz.

[@jfritzy4358]

@@cmc2234 Ridiculous to claim Danny should buy a new tweeter. Maybe Danny was a little too quick to post a video on this one. Live and learn. However, not his responsibility to fix broken stuff sent to him. If anybody should buy a new tweeter to measure, clearly the owner of the speaker is responsible.

[@cmc2234]

@@jfritzy4358 He should buy a new tweeter for measurement purposes to settle the dispute. He could likely even return it after or write it off as an expense. I don't care what he does at this point. It's his professional credibility that's on the line.

[@jfritzy4358]

@@cmc2234 Professional credibility on the line? Give me a break with the over the top manufactured drama. Since you bring up credibility. What is an algorithmic Frequency Graph? You might want to use correct terminology when in the criticizing other's credibility mode.

[@lotus72e]

Back in 1997 I built myself a center speaker consisting of this Seas T25CFF01 tweeter and two Seas P14RC/TV woofers in a MTM configuration. After some years I ordered another tweeter and designed a 4 -way model with Seas MP12VC mid and Vifa P17 midbass with Seas P21 RFX/P sidemounted woofer. Upon measuring the two speakers I measured vastly different frequency response from the two tweeters. The new one was fairly accurate based on the factory measurement. The old one however was another story. The response was uneven and too low in the high frequency range from above 6-7 khz and up. I contacted Seas in Moss Norway( I live in Oslo a 40 min drive from Moss) and spoke with them. They sent me a new dome repair kit and it made a real difference, the tweeter measured much better. My take on this is that these domes are prone to this issue and the owners who does not get to measure them are unaware of the issue they got. Compliments to you Danny who actually wants to look into this again and see if a new tweeter will improve the situation. I believe it will. I am looking forward to seeing the results!

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

I built a surround sound system around the same time (might have been 1998) I used the Vifa P17WJ as well. The quality of that driver varied massively after that, as company changed hands and quality fell dramatically. It got a bit better, but I don't think it is back to the 90's standard.

[@johndavidson6433]

Great to see you going back and trying to figure this out. I listen to a set of Jamo Concert 8 in showroom when they were first released in the 90s. They were not rolled off and over all had a great sound. Hopefully you will get to the issue.

[@scanspeak00]

Even the severely corroded wiring raises my suspicions - this speaker has not had a normal life.

[@dannyrichie9743]

That is actually real common with PVC jacketed wire, especially if the ends are not sealed.

[@mcgjohn22]

@@dannyrichie9743 yep, +1 for comments. Have not worked on any where near as many as GR, but on several I have done so have seen that same corrosion in other speaker wiring as well. Not sure if its the chlorine molecule in the PVC that is attacking the copper or something else. Best thing is to pull all PVC jacketed wire and replace with PE or PP jacketed wire.

[@RennieAsh]

​@@dannyrichie9743I have a set of cables that is all green. You'd love them ;-)

[@cmc2234]

@@mcgjohn22 Here's a concept... use OXYGEN FREE COPPER wire!

[@ford1546]

Hello. I have owned many speaker cables that quickly turn green and dark under the transparent insulation. Even if it is OCF. copper, the cable turns green, especially after soldering. I have now started to only use tinned copper

[@toddlee2571]

It's singer James Ingram's favorite speaker. He wrote a song about them - Jamo Be There

[@seanjoell]

Good looking out for your customers and potential customers, as well as a nice catch for you & the viewers. It's nice to see y'all looking out for everyone's products and/or well-being. Good work.

[@michelplouffe7934]

Very happy that you change your mind. Looking forward to see the results.

[@drazenbabich]

Fair point you make Danny. When you called out the venerable Jamo D830 you went against pretty much the establishment so its best to approach this from a careful and well measured stand point and perspective. The D830 is still running in many homes (mine too) and in its class/performance had been untouchable for a very long time, and likely still is. It was also a well researched and reviewed Jamo model, with pretty much all of the reviewers and labs giving it the highest marks. Hence I also (as many others here) am of belief that there could be something else at play along this speaker's lifetime that caused it to measure as mediocre. I tried to replace mine may times over the last decade or so but haven't been able to find its true and proper successor, taking everything into account. Looking forward to your update video on the matter at hand. Cheers.

[@dannyrichie9743]

There may be some issues with the one that I was sent, but the quality (or lack there of) in the internals is undisputable. There is a LOT of room for improvement.

[@gamerbruh2587]

@drazenbabich I have a dynaudio c1 and jamo d830. a supernait 3 and a custom tube amp. The jamo sounds average 3.5k usd speaker on the naim+chord qutest, but as soon as it's hooked up to the 6bg6 tube amp paired to an ad1862 dac it immediately defeats the dynaudio c1 in musicality. This says a lot. But I do agree with @Danny there's lot of room for improvement.

[@matthiasmeyer1124]

Ok, now the story starts to make sense. You looked at the SEAS spec sheet, the curve looked similar, but you didn't check the X-axis numbers. From there on you assumed the tweeter was in order, and all other conclusion came downstream from that. Relatable experience. And respect to you for address the topic in that manner - that restored some trust in what you are doing, Denny. You maybe should have a talk with Barney, though... ;)

[@KnutIvarSkogland]

Maybe the tweeter had some (too)heavy load previously and the coil is damaged somehow? Not enough to ruin it, but just enough to make it less sensitive?

[@KnutIvarSkogland]

Maybe try to measure its DC resistance and see if it matches the driver specs?

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

See this is why I enjoy your videos so much. Some people would try and hide it under the rug, but you're honest and upfront about not being 100% happy about it. It's called integrity, something not all that common today.

[@analogkid4557]

Thanks for clearing it up, Danny.

[@hugobloemers4425]

Hi Danny, kudos to you for being diligent.

[@pauldavies6037]

I have noticed on the cheaper end dome tweeters dropping off of high frequencies and sensitivity due the magnets loosing flux and some rust particles moving into the air gap in humid climates

[@scanspeak00]

Just measured my own Seas T25 tweeter purchased a month ago - no problem with the response up to 20kHz.

[@Tanko3691]

Incredibly professional Danny, this will make for a good video, look forward.

[@adaboy4z]

So you made this video after reading the thread over at AudioScience review on your last video about the Jamo speakers? You took what they said and made corrections, Bravo...

[@jfritzy4358]

If ASR (Amir) measured the same speaker and questioned the tweeter response, the ASR faithful would praise Amir for exposing another deceitful audio manufacturer. Remember, Danny is evaluating what is sent to him. Unless the owner provides an accurate pedigree, no telling how the speaker has been treated. Any speaker over 10 years old could have failed or degraded parts. What Danny does is very educational and valuable to the DIY'ers. However, we should all understand the speakers Danny evaluates are a sample of ONE. Likely Danny's measurements are accurete, but results should not be taken as 100% guaranteed applicable to every other speaker of the same model and vintage.

[@adaboy4z]

@@jfritzy4358 You don't read ASR often. Members disagree with Amir often and correct his mistakes. Danny should have checked tweeter function. 20+ year old speaker. Even I a novice know about dried out Ferro fluid. I've made that repair on 40 yr old tweeters, Bang and Olufsen Beovox S80. I refoamed them as and replaced crossover parts with equivalents. You don't need crossover kits that cost 2- 3x as much as the speaker.

[@jfritzy4358]

@@adaboy4z Read ASR extensively. Enough to be sick of the toxic know it all atmosphere. As I said, anything over 10 years old can have problems. Danny may have to consider charging a small fee to cover troubleshooting and repair. There are always air chair experts ready to criticize others.

[@dannyrichie9743]

I never pay any attention to anything going on over there, and why would I?

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@adaboy4z I am well aware of the effects of ferro fluid. That is not what was going on with this tweeter. A dried or even thickening ferro fluid effects the output levels across the board, not just in the top octave.

[@HiFiLiFi]

I hope you fix this issue, i want to buy an upgrade to mine👍👍

[@kikkikolsenbroberg1932]

Youre the greatest. I did not expect so much discussion on that particular speaker. But i cant wait to see what solution its going to be . Have a good one😀

[@gamerbruh2587]

This speaker is a legendary speaker which defeats many modern day stuff well upto 20000 usd.

[@veroman007]

it just needed some help on the inside..... who doesnt. Speaker therapy coming soon to an office near you.

[@fredfungalspore]

Good news I am hoping Danny will do a cross over kit for the Jamo Concert 11s too 🙏

[@dannyrichie9743]

Send one in and I'll take a look at it.

[@engjds]

All of the Excel tweeters have a Fo at 500Hz or higher, the general rule of thumb was to use 2 octaves above this for the minimum xover frequency(2Khz at f0=500Hz) to minimise phase disturbance in the stopband, this also ties in with their recommended min frequency on the datasheet. A 6.5" driver has a upper frequency limit determined by a horizontal polar response at 6dB at approx 2800Hz(Vance Dickenson Cookbook)), so why are you driving your tweeters so low against conventional speaker building?

[@Stefandejager01]

Please someone in the US : send Danny a Concert 11 speaker!

[@RMROTONDO]

I have three concert 8 speakers. None of them sound rolled off at the high end. I can directly compare them to a set of MK S-1, monitor audio s10, JBL 4301B and a set of Dynaudio BM6 powered studio monitors. Plus many others and in no way do they sound like Danny’s measurements. I don’t think he got it wrong, I think that particular speaker was messed up. They are superb sounding speaker and hold their own agains any of the the speakers I mentioned. They all sound different, but there is not a clunker in the lot, especially the C8s.

[@gamerbruh2587]

completely agree. I've heard stuff upto 100k and actually found myself preferring the concert 8 over most. The dynaudio c1 is close but it's just not the same.

[@engjds]

Hi, did you ever take the driver off to check for magnesium oxidisation?, mine is fine looking from the front, but they tend to corrode at the back first.

[@RMROTONDO]

@@engjds I have not. I will take a look however thanks for the heads up. Question: if I do find corrosion what can I do about it? Thanks.

[@engjds]

@@RMROTONDO Rub natural bees wax into the entire rear of the driver, it has to be natural though, it greatly slows down the corrosion process-by preventing further oxygen reaction, make sure you cover the interface between the rubber and voice coil region as it tends to corrode worst there first.

[@hawkboy71]

Great Video Danny! Are you doing some extra training for an upcoming meet lately? You're looking jacked sir!!!!! P.S. I love my LGK 2.4's and LGK 2.2 cherry veneer set up I got from you. I feel like I'm finally achieving audiophile sound!!! I've just ordered a new phono pre-amp (Pro-ject S2 tube box to be exact) to get away from my on board Marantz phono input. I have zero doubt it will improve things even further...possibly looking at upgrading my Ortofon 2m silver cart on my Pro-Ject 1xpression Carbon Classic next!

[@dannyrichie9743]

I am glad you are enjoying those. They are a favorite of mine too. I tore a muscle in my next during training back in early September and have not been about to do anything for a coulpe of months. I feel like I am withering away.

[@hawkboy71]

@@dannyrichie9743 Oh no! Well you look good Danny, hopefully things heal up quickly and you are back on the track asap. Keep up the good work.

[@HiFiLiFi]

Respect!

[@shipsahoy1793]

Irrespective of posts, or even resistor or inductor type, quality capacitors will get you at least halfway there, if not more up to 90%, depending on the design. I don’t recommend going all out on the expense of the internals. It really depends on if the rest of the design warrants it. Most mainstream consumer hi-fi speakers/drivers are not a large enough investment or quality to warrant the expense involved. Nice videos, though; they get consumers scrutinizing their speaker designs, so ultimately, that can only help, by putting better products on the market.

[@jasonme3557]

As always going the extra mile. Good stuff

[@markphilpot8734]

If something looks off or smells off, it probably is off. You are one of the few who sees something and saying wait a minute. This requires a further investigation and eval. You’re on to something Danny. I hope you find the real problem and get it straightened out. You will as I know you have. Press on sir!

[@scanspeak00]

Except in the first video he kind of dismissed everyone who questioned his test results.

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@scanspeak00 I did not dismiss the questions, but I had already answered most of the questions posed.

[@rickpiasecki9744]

Danny, Appreciate that you are pursuing this, keeping an open mind and taking scientific approach. Looking forward to the conclusion since it will most likely be another heads-up when selecting spakers.

[@mpp9964]

Danny’s lookin’ jacked!

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Counterfeit speakers?

[@scanspeak00]

That’s my hunch.

[@fonkenful]

Too soon to jump to conclusions; time will tell. Hafta applaud Danny for the transparency with which he’s handling this case.

[@jondonnelly3]

but why tho? You copy the high end, not Jamo.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

@@jondonnelly3 easier to copy, can sell more, easier to get away with.

[@mfr58]

More likely as production went on costs increased and they stopped bothering with quality control.....Also although Danny doesn't think it's the ferro fluid drying out, as well as drop off at the top, the tweeter's overall efficiency is lower than the woofer, which is unusual....

[@TobyIKanoby]

good reaction

[@travisbishop7212]

Great video and thanks for the update very much sir 🤘 whole new appreciation for you kind sir 🥂

[@seoulrydr]

i think we all just need some help inside. corrosion is a bitch.

[@engjds]

Use natural bees wax to protect the rear, it adds little weight and will greatly slow down the corrosion process, it took me quite a while to find that out!

[@IanKnight40]

The age of the speaker makes it questonable if it is even worth the effort. I've used Seas EXCEL Magnesium drivers, the cone material on some of them has completely changed and gone "dull looking" with patches of grey fleck on both sides. A 20 year old tweeter should be binned. The oxydisation of the cable should ring alarm bells to how and where the speaker has been used and how much environmental tempture change that it is has been subject to. The symptoms you highlight in your video indicate something that may have been in storage in extreme conditions, with the added factor of age I cannot understand why you would even attempt to correct it. Clearly the drivers and components are past their sell by date.

[@mrpeterfromgodknowswhere]

Very reasonable response to the original video. -Kudos!

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Maybe the are flood-damaged?

[@scanspeak00]

It would be obvious - the wood would swell dramatically.

[@louiesipes2257]

Test tones with a DB meter?💁

[@doakwolf]

There is no maybe, you have to do a follow up video please Danny!

[@seanb3303]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Jamo is buying tweeters from Seas that don’t meet tolerances. Zu Dirty Weekend speaker uses mismatched drivers and they tell you thats why it’s $1000 or whatever’s now

[@hugobloemers4425]

Good point, I was surprised that Jamo even had SEAS drivers at all. I have never heard a Jamo speaker that impressed me in a positive sense. Normally I run for the hills when I encounter them.

[@waltergist8923]

DW6with mismatched drivers, $1000 a pair? Not the last time I checked. Got references?

[@seanb3303]

@@waltergist8923 that was the price a few years ago.

[@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter]

Let's not forget it's a Jamo.

[@alphacapo]

I understand measuring speakers. But if every speaker measured the same wouldn't they all sound the same? How boring is that. I have a new pair of jamo c93ii powered by a Yamaha as701 and they sound good to me. (People bitch about how this speaker measures) but whats it matter if u like the way it sounds when your listening to your favorite movies and music in stereo? I don't get the gripe about these... I don't listen to music in an acoustic treated space. Just a couple nice looking area rugs and throw rugs hanging in corners and on the walls everything else is normal furnishings speaker placement to taste. I've listened to a few budget speakers that cost more than the jamos by quite a bit and they don't sound as good to me. The build quality is fairly nice for the price of 300$ a pair. I've read comment where people say that they only weigh 6lbs. But they weigh at least 15 lbs apiece I've heard people say that they can barely listen to them because of fatigue. I've listened to everything from boards of canada, Jonny cash, lil Wayne, rush ufo tool toto steely Dan, AL dimeola ect ect for probably five hours th other night placing everything....soft volume, loud volume direct eq. Fiddling with loudness bass and treble. And I like everything I hear so far. I'm not sure why people gripe so much. Companies like yamaha jbl jamo B&W all make products for two channel listening that absolutely kill the average theator in a box wireless stuff everyone buys...for about the same money. I imagine this setup will last me 20 yrs no problem. Criticism has its place....but try to Enjoy your music guys...

[@scanspeak00]

If your goal is hi-fidelity then all the best speakers should basically sound the same. Thats not boring, that's called accuracy.

[@alphacapo]

@scanspeak00 so why are people paying 1k or 5k for one set and 9 k for another set. If a good set of speakerS is supposed to have one common trait being accuracy wich makes them all sound the same? But guys will sit there and dog this speaker or that speaker. If they measure great how stupid is someone to spend 9k instead of 1k? Nobodys sitting and listening at 100db at home. Guys will say this speaker is warmer or that speaker has smoother highs. Well if they are great speakers they should sound the same. Smoother highs or warmer sounding fuller bass isn't necessarily accurate. Audiophiles make zero sense in this regard.

[@scanspeak00]

@@alphacapo The same reason people spend 5 x times more on a Porsche than a Tesla. Eye candy, status, luxury.

[@dannyrichie9743]

Speaker measurements are not a measurement of how a speaker sounds. It is a measurement of how accurate it is. Two speakers can measure the same, yet sound completely different. I have demonstrated this many times.

[@alphacapo]

@@dannyrichie9743 I bet. U sound akin to someone explaining religion to an agnostic

[@gerlachsieders4578]

Kudos Danny

[@drc97086]

Why purchase these manufactured loudspeakers? Plenty of high quality kits available. Danny’s videos are both amusing and infuriating.🤪

[@RennieAsh]

Many people purchase used speakers at reasonable prices considering the stuff in them

[@joecartwright9221]

👌

[@Smood47]

2x is still a bit slow dang

[@sloboat55]

Danny, your Kung-fu is strong. Can't wait to hear my cryo cables.

[@2A3tube]

Rolled off at 20KHz, 25KHz or even at 30KHz?! Who kares. We only can hear from 10KHz till 18KHz. Depends on age. Why you using measurements at first? Use you ears man.

[@dannyrichie9743]

The measurements can show what's wrong and quantify it much faster.

[@tristanjones7735]

Nah. I agree that subjective listening is important, but not using measuring equipment is just as foolish as blindly relying on it. Even if your ears are really well tuned, there are only a very few select people on this planet that have the ear AND the experience to tune a speaker by ear alone. And a roll off that is 3db down at 20K is more than likely going to impact the audio much further down in the audio band. IT ALL MATTERS.