Resolving The Tank Dilemma - Rock Paper Scissors for Tanks

[@KROW_OW]

**In Winston's Match Up Chart, the Sigma in the "Very Weak" column is supposed to be JunkerQueen | Ball: Roadhog in "Weak" is JunkerQueen**

[@nightwaffles283]

Is the same true for ball with the two roadhogs in weak and very weak?

[@KROW_OW]

@@nightwaffles283 ack I didn't even notice that one. Yes ;-;

[@GoldSwordKiller]

Its unfortunate that this is actually a valuable guide for overwatch tank currently

[@rioriorio17]

It’s still a skill issue if you lose outside of team-play

[@timothychinye6008]

Not really. Overwatch has always had counterswapping as a main feature of the game. You shouldn't counterswap after like 45 seconds, but you should like 2/3 times a game. It's why I never call myself a Mercy main, but rather a Support main. I try to be able to play all support characters (except lifeweaver) to a pretty high level. With that being said, the issue is that once you play one character who you're just seemingly much better than other characters, instead of trying to be better at the other characters, you just play the one character you're best at more and more. But... that's not what Overwatch was intended to be like. If you want to play only one character, play Apex Legends, or Valorant, or something. I'm not saying do what I do and play every single character in your role, but I would say you shouldn't main any specific character, but rather ~3 of them.

[@davidfarnstrom7241]

@@timothychinye6008 yes its a core part of the game but some counters are just too strong like sombra doomfist. small counters that can be outplayed are one thing but some counters are just too strong, you really shouldnt be counter picking in a situation where no tank counters the other in qp because in qp you are supposed to be able to play your main. i think people counterpick in situations where they where just worse at the game so they choose to get carried by the hero they are playing and that removes some fun to the game. yes you should be maining 3 characters sometimes but sometimes its a game of constant counter swap from teh worse tank. my friend played doom and he killed the tank 1 TIME (qp btw) and the other tank instanty swapped to orisa. my friend whent dva then and he instantly swapped to zaria. its an example of how some people are getting carried by counterswapping

[@SamStraker]

Mauga before the nerfs came in was legit "Meteor" in Rock Paper Scissors lol

[@Davinmk]

the only counter to mauga was mauga lol

[@PurpleMoon799]

​@@Davinmk and ana 😂

[@redgrapes7546]

@@Davinmk Funny enough, if you went with the Le Sserafim collab team and picked off his backline, you could then focus him down and win. The only way to beat him for awhile was to not fight him and just go dive.

[@Davinmk]

@@redgrapes7546 that doesn’t always work, ur still at a heavy disadvantage, but yeah sure it’s better than nothing

[@Jacob-jg6cd]

I just. Want to play. Reinhardt.

[@tclfan0180]

And I just want to play monke, but there’s about 10 different counters spread over all roles 😢

[@ShivamJalali]

Just like I wanna play genji but there's a counter everywhere

[@rainboroad]

quite possibly one of the best videos ive seen on educational overwatch, this must’ve been VERY exhaustive, i appreciate the ending notes of how the “rock paper scissors” type of thinking only applies in a vacuum, and should be used as a guide, rather than a bible. incredible work as always

[@number-ow1fo]

11:06 Zarya currently has a bug with roadhog where she doesn't receive the maximum charge possible when he shoots/breaks her barrier. Making it harder to build charge.

[@Ingu.z]

Will be interesting to see how the S9 changes will shake things up. If they change numbers around without touching nade itself, and nade ends up feeling more like a temporary inconvenience, then I think playing tank on ladder will feel very differently. Rush and dive are more fun than poke anyway

[@KROW_OW]

I agree. At least in respect to the passive healing for Tanks and DPS, I'm expecting it to be like the support passive where you need to avoid taking damage for a period of time for it to activate. I suspect that it will be much more valuable to shield, dive, and poke heroes who can utilize cover more effectively to proc the passive while rush and brawl will find it relatively negligible.

[@Ingu.z]

@@KROW_OW Have you ever played World of Warcraft? I strongly suspect it will only work "out of combat", meaning you don't take any action that engages with the enemy for X seconds before it kicks in. In Guild Wars 2 they have an extremely fast heal to full if you disengage from combat (or healing allies that are engaged in combat, being hit etc) and it feels great within that PvP context in that game. Imagine it more like you having the option to hide out for a moment to regain health, rather than having to sprint for a health pack. In this sense it's also good for rush and dive since if you lose both supports in a team fight but eliminate all 5 on the enemy team, you are already at full health again once the rest of your team gets back. So in a way I'm more concerned for metal ranks with e.g. Hog or Junker Queen pushing up against enemy spawn doors without their support potentially becoming an issue with that change.

[@ricecube5079]

The production of this vid is insane , you deserve more views keep going and don’t stop ✋ …..I believe this is the best ow content anywhere now

[@torbinbornhammer2180]

Best guide highlighting exceptions to "counters" I've ever seen.

[@Doople]

Interesting video and im glad it explored some of the nuance of the tank role right now. Tank vs playstyle/comp is often ignored during discussion. I broadly agree with the video but its funny how fun factors into these match ups in rank. Like often people want to just play Ram rush and will switch off when it doesn't work despite other playstyles being viable. Would be interesting to see more on that. Though thats more game dev territory than competitive player perspective so understandable that its not covered here

[@carbonation10317]

Really whipped out the mark rober soundtrack

[@teku69420]

Always glad to have you back, keep up with the content!

[@shaheedroylance]

U can tell allot of time & thought went into making this!! 🙏❤️

[@upyonderr]

Could someone give me an explanation of anchor? Coming from the rock paper scissors video I'm only used to dive, rush, and poke. Is it just an anti-dive playstyle that tries to assist their own backline by providing space and peel?

[@momojunior6768]

Keep making the long videos we love em!

[@greatwhitnorth]

Watched this whole video but am still going to just one trick ball every game :D

[@Doople]

True Ball experience

[@hellaeric10]

Gigachad

[@mega17]

Mauga's icon is making me lose it lmao

[@dumass804]

I really thought you were gonna say "this is YOUR daily dose of internet" at the start of the video

[@livid_spider]

I just don’t switch even if they play my counter. If I can beat someone on a character that’s at a disadvantage that just solidifies my skill at the tank. If we lose I just say I got countered and couldn’t do anything lol

[@WolfySundae]

Krow uploaded :0

[@floatycorn2491]

Always on top of the game; Thank you dude.

[@S0LIDSNEK]

Footage of 6v6 on Volskaya?? Sadge, rip OW1

[@big_brain34]

Anchor ??? Ok I know dive poke and rush but anchor????

[@PabloE933]

I can play any tank into any tank. The only problem I ever have while playing tank is Sombra, ana, and cass.

[@GIEGERJUNKER]

I main ball and despise those characters so much... hopefully the rework can make him more fun as most of my games are me destroying the enemy team just for supports to outheal my damage then all of a sudden I'm hacked and then slept...

[@PabloE933]

@@GIEGERJUNKER Yea. For ana it's not too bad because sleep dart isn't necessarily an easy cool down to hit and given she has no mobility it allows her to defend herself I think it's fair but Sombra is just stupid and cass nade is like a homing missile that can't miss. Although I do think they should make the sleep last a shorter duration and just lower the cool down so she can use it more often.

[@TacoDehWinner]

what if you counter a counters counter when encountering a Lucio bopping me OFF THE DAMNM CLIFFF!~!!!\

[@wysh6107]

i think these matchups might need a closer look, specifically the hog orisa matchup just feels wrong. i play a lot of hog and always saw orisas as an easy win. orisa dont do enough dmg on their own to ever win the 1v1. orisa cannot ult against a hog he usually has ult before her and orisa is a locked hitbox to take all the shots. hog ult is also just a free kill on her if she fortifys at a bad time, and hogs combos and orisa massive head make it really easy to force her to gold. as long as you bait javelin throw and dont let her spin you out of position shes one of the easiest hog matchups in the game.

[@Herethick]

Can someone explain what is the anchor playstyle? I've only heard of dive, rush and poke and I have no idea what it is

[@dinosaurkin5093]

not going to play Overwatch until 6v6 comes back because fuck this counterpicking BS.

[@ayylmao02]

this feels very basic but the reality is so many tanks don't seem to know this mechanic

[@JoyDaBeast]

Love the vid! But magua is NOT neutral against rein xD

[@bluespellmaster8592]

I disagree. If you shield off his damage mauga dies very easily

[@Asgelio]

@@bluespellmaster8592except the shield will literally easily break within seconds or just shoot someone else

[@hellaeric10]

Does anyone else think it's a problem that Ana is in nearly every single team comp?

[@Treefrog47]

I’m very interested to see the video you and Samito are working on.

[@KROW_OW]

wait what, is there a video that we were working on together outside of my knowledge or am i just getting baited lol

[@Treefrog47]

@@KROW_OW oof nvm wrong crow 💀 srry

[@darchandarchan7036]

seeing rein having over 50% against ONE other hero is tragic

[@blakevanessen185]

Yo rein main here making sad noises because blizzard won’t touch him cuz he stomps metal ranks. RIP

[@PatrickArcato]

I stopped playing tank after almost playing tanks only for years. I can't stand being trashed by everyone if I don't switch Also the best tanks are so boring, like Mauga or Orisa or Zarya

[@its_qarma7683]

love the videos man was hoping you would come back :) but you say rock paper scissors and the thumbnail is rock scissor paper hahah

[@SkeeziOS]

Amazing guide! Thanks to you, I will avoid the tank role permanently here on out

[@mkvader1165]

But how does the deva solve the rock paper scissors simulator in ow?

[@silvine6151]

Man misses your vids, im having some trouble with sombra has a dive tanks may i ask for the next analisys be a dive tank and how he deals with it?

[@ahmadazizuddinahmadazmi8242]

Oh god seeing the graft for rein is sad

[@kirbee1113]

Bro how is Mauga vs Ball neutral? xDD There is no way!

[@easperts8220]

For the Doomfist Match Up Chart. imo i would swap orisa & mauga around since mauga ult is a death sentence for doom since he is only left with his squirt gun and powerblock. Aswell move Queen to neutral since you can just punch her axe swing and ult wind up easily

[@k_-kq3ch]

A good doom can consistently cancel mauga ult much like blocking a shatter

[@KROW_OW]

Doom isn't very good at brawling tanks in the first place, but what can make him decent against Mauga is that he has the mobility and burst to shut down the enemy supports and easily run away from Mauga. Mauga feeds off of the frontline face to face tank battle, but the entire point of playing doomfist is to not provide the environment Mauga wants to have. Furthermore, Mauga can't sustain himself without supports because of how large of a hitbox he has. I can see an argument being made for Orisa and Queen, but in the case of a proficient Queen, she can heavily limit your dive potential by neutralizing one of your mobility skills with her knife. Of course if you're up against a Queen that isn't utilizing the knife properly, it'll be much more of a neutral match up. Just my subjective thoughts, so your points are very valid :)

[@Eyes7770]

I feel you missed the other part of Reinhart

[@fishin_]

Bro the background music is from the mark Rober videos. I always hear this. What is it? 😂

[@Adercu]

Rhythm heaven music is so underused on youtube

[@yazan_q]

7:31 I can’t believe this is an owl match What is he doing? Why did I just know this exists

[@draunt7]

0/10 video: Claimed you should swap off Rein. Absolute bull, everyone knows only true chads with honor go rein.

[@notmyname1038]

Whoever said ramatra is one of the biggest counters for ball should uninstall BS that's 1 of the few tanks ball is good vs. Just be careful of his vortex

[@qsxsqsxs]

Love the Rhythm Heaven music :)

[@darkdusty1937]

can someone explain the weak.to strong graph????

[@bananenkris]

I don't why I am watching this, I'll still always play doomy

[@vinnyg411]

why does the thumbnail go rock scissors paper, instead of rock paper scissors? Great vid tho

[@jaber5345]

Welcome back

[@buck7271]

What is anchor

[@StupidManCostume]

Sit in one spot and hold it down, make the enemy come to you as you have a large advantage in close range if you do

[@buck7271]

@@StupidManCostume thanks mate

[@ProbABurner]

The solution is simple: force Doomfist rain or shine

[@its_qarma7683]

do you have a discord with all these different graphs?

[@KROW_OW]

Not yet, but I'm thinking it would be good to set one up and have some of the community members manage it. I'm not confident that I will be able to consistently moderate/manage the server 😅

[@commentbot9510]

Dva vs roadhog may be a an alright matchup but you are playing get hooked by hog and fly away on repeat simulator until he manages to demech you. It SUCKS as the dva. I like playing against hogs that don't know how to play into dva though. Saving my squishes is satisfying. But good hogs always hook dva.

[@SirDraco-]

"its currently 4 am" XD

[@dakamp]

Ah yes you confirmed the schitzo one trick take I’m always telling my friends. Ball is the best tank because you have almost zero interaction with the other tank. So no counters if you’re gud.

[@OO-il6sl]

Did you really put Mauga as 'weak'? Lol

[@TheRealCroix]

Why did you use the scissors hand for paper, and paper hand for scissors? Why does this bother me?

[@almondwater9583]

I don’t care about counters I’m just tired of my teammates being ass in masters and low gm lobbies.

[@jackattackstopmotion3244]

I think the best way is to make it 6v6 but there all tanks

[@BasicSneedEducation]

I miss 6v6

[@hrsa8717]

orisa and dva are both weak to each other?

[@hrsa8717]

oh and JQ is both weak and strong against sigma?

[@Flitchy]

i really really hate that you put them in rock,scissors,paper order

[@Custom2udo]

Or just do what i do, put on your blinders and just play doom, cause hes fun

[@ga6257]

If only there was like a 6th person playing in every game or something.

[@kennyjohnson26]

This video just reaffirms to me the they never should’ve changed orisa from ow1. I feel like the dev team was so afraid of having too many shields that they felt forced to change her. But now she almost has no depth as a character besides bullying the enemy tank. I would’ve loved to see her be another poke tank option against sigma especially with pull being such a strong ability. Imo they should’ve removed fortify, kept the shield, pull, and her old primary fire and added javelin spin but no javelin throw. That way she doesn’t have too much sustain with the shield, can use spin to stop people from crossing her shield or to quickly reposition and still have pull for team play. And ofc we need CEASE YOUR RESISTANCE back

[@ikaros6633]

If I'm being counter picked too much or my team is just lacking I almost always pick ramattra because I can feel i can patch my team with him

[@Rynsca]

ur the goat

[@Mclovinit349]

Nah just play a tank until your godly with them

[@wildwestwaifu6201]

I love deuling maugas as rein, i main both and i know what that mauga wants to do.

[@gwynm8506]

Orisa = dynamite

[@markangelogarcia2584]

NAH Roadhog is very weak to mauga he simply cant take space or even leave his team to flank the enemy since mauga will just kill them as a hog sigma is fairly ez to take down mauga=very weak followed by orisa

[@dylanger1015]

I think the only thing I disagree with, and I don't know if I'm misinformed or not. But every time I fight a orisa, dive tanks like Winston seem to win the game's more often because I cut off their supports and then kill them and they were very hard to kill with Zaria if they're being healed. And I can't go out the squishies because of spear spin. All your other information is accurate. I'm just wondering if my entire worldview is wrong

[@KROW_OW]

I think your experience is accurate across multiple ranks and this is going to be a result of compositions that lack synergy. If we take Orisa within a rush, anchor, or anti-dive composition, it becomes infinitely more difficult for dive tanks like Winston to take advantage of splitting off the backline. Meanwhile commonly in most ranked games, the Orisa is paired with a poke composition which places distance between the Orisa and their backline, but their composition as a whole becomes more vulnerable to dive tanks. A characteristic of Zarya is that her frontline presence isn't as strong as other main tanks. This means that if you are in a position where you need to push into the enemy team to generate value, it can be much more difficult. She would have to rely more on her DPS to take advantage of the time you're buying by preventing the Orisa from pushing into your squishies and while burning support resources. I briefly mention this playstyle issue in 12:35 with JunkerQueen as the example. From a defending standpoint, this can be incredibly powerful for burning time and holding space.

[@dylanger1015]

@@KROW_OW Ah, thanks for the info!

[@majestic8274]

Counter-picking makes the game unbalanced

[@bignickenergy2042]

Its easy. Just go back to 6v6

[@moonbeamz8207]

Rock paper.scissors isnt accurate tho. Like zaria is shit against dva if youre one a high ground favored map. This whole idea is a cancer to the community. Poisoning yyour games with "swap or gg" toxic throwing team mates. Edit: wanted to.say this is a great video and break down. Well done and appreciated.

[@gregyyypooh]

Watch this video if you want to get better at tank realistically this is sound

[@theedwardian]

You know what works better than this? Actually knowing how to use your character and not wasting time/meter changing your character 3 times a match.

[@Garry-y7b]

Is it just me or does it feel very unintuitive? You swap and then your teammates don’t know how tf to play with that tank or maybe the enemy tank swaps. Not to mention there’s too many characters to be good at all of them, yet that’s what these nerds expect of your average tank player.

[@Garry-y7b]

I started playing ow1 a year before ow2 came out and was always a gold player so I didn’t even know about the concept of counter swapping, and boy the game was way more fun.

[@Asgelio]

Which is why it’s better to just play a short number of tanks and get better at them. Playing against so called “counters” will help you learn but trying to say a tank’s matchup against every single other tanks is just useless. I will play dva and literally not care about what tank they will play unless it’s someone who genuinely knows how to play zarya. Picking a tank with the mentality of “I counter them” or “I have a better matchup bcs a yt video told me” is just counter productive for learning and ranking up

[@michaelobrien912]

Just want orisa to stop being hated so much

[@k_-kq3ch]

Tank is just a balance issue the two strongest characters on release mauga and jq both made their own metas with stupid amounts of damage and sustain that left left every other tank helpless. Introducing stat checkers into a skill based competitive game is beyond stupid. There is a reason Microsoft is laying off thousand of Activision employees maybe now they will stop sitting on their asses for 5 years and balance their game

[@Doople]

The second half has to be the dumbest take I've seen. Just complete ignorance on how anything works. Nonsensical child logic

[@musicxxa6678]

community data looks so wrong. is it old ? Ramattra take is terrible. he is not strong against dive. Ramattra is just a low skill ceiling high skill floor reinhardt. Flawed design hero. Like how ram can be good against doom ? Heroes like ram/rein are extremely outdated. the game has massive dmg, surviveability, mobility creep. Rein is more mobile and tankier so he works better. ram > zarya ram > jq ram >= monke ram >= dva ram = sig ram = rein ram < ball ram < doom ram < mauga ram < orisa ram < hog tank tier list in current state s: hog, sig a: doom, jq b: every other tank c: zarya

[@homelessman3483]

Zarya below ball??? 😆 🤣 doom over orisa?? 😂😂😂

[@Asgelio]

What in the metal rank is this…

[@musicxxa6678]

zarya is by far the worst right now and can't even counter the orisa anymore. doom is consistently one of the best tank in the game. go look at t500 leaderboard who mains what hero i'm sure it's all reflected there@@homelessman3483

[@musicxxa6678]

i'm gm on all ranks. this video is just doesn't reflect the high level ladder experience. it's either outdated, not up to date with the game's state or it's overly focused on coordinated pro play. this video is simply not accurate at all.@@Asgelio

[@Asgelio]

@@musicxxa6678 I agree with all that, but what’s with that previous ram >, ram< and that tank tier list