ResoNix Sound Solutions - Internet Idiocies Episode 1: Front Subwoofers & Sealed Midbass Enclosures

[@BenjaminSchickert]

Thanks Nick, great content, as always. I often hear one thing as con against front sub (mind you, I have one): You have a lot of overlap between Rear Sub ("RS"), Front Sub ("FS") and Midbass ("MB") which may create all kinds of phase issues. To avoid these, you can use very steep crossovers which then introduces group delay. When modelling it up, for FS and MB tge bandpass is so narrow, that the high pass affects the low pass and vice versa. What would "typical" (I know there is no one size fits all answer but it is heavily case dependent) XO structure between RS, FS and MB look like in terms of steepness and frequency? Any views on these arguments and how to counter them? From the video I would assume that i) any phase issues potentially introduced by the XO structure is less bad than the phase issues the cancellations will cause and ii) group delay - if at all audible for the majority of listeners - is much less worse than the distortion introduced by rattles or resonances. Love to hear your view on the above.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

Regarding the overlap of RS, FS, and MB... well if you do your crossovers right, there is no overlap. These phase "issues" arent exactly issues. There are more crossovers to align phase of, but its not an issue. What I would consider a phase "issue" is what I am showing in the video, something that cannot be corrected. Phase wraps from crossovers do not need correcting. They just need to be aligned. Thats easy and a non issue. Group delay...... relative to the issues presented in this video, its not even worth thinking about. Its insignificant in comparison. Steep slopes typically work better in a vehicle anyways. Like mentioned in this video, and many others, car audio is a very delicate balance. Sure, in theory a shallow slope has a better impulse response, better group delay, etc. But in trade off of things that I do not consider worth it at all. Not even close actually. Now, when doing a front sub, yes, the high and low pass filters affect each other. But again, are kind of a non-issue if you halfway know what you are doing. A typical crossover structure for me in most cases would be 0-40, 40-110, and 110 to whatever the midrange can play down to. All 24dB LR crossovers. This is obviously just a generalization though. I have done midbass as low as 90, or as high as 150. I have done front sub as low as 35, as high as 55. Really depends on what the application calls for. Your final thought on assuming that phase "issues" (remember, theyre not really issues), being less of a problem than what we are experiencing in the video is absolutely correct. The problems we are seeing with phase in the video are from reflections causing cancellation. The phase we see from crossovers is just how crossovers work. Nothing wrong with it at all. The group delay of a crossover isnt going to be any more of a problem if the front sub is removed from the equation, so I am not sure what the argument would be here. If anything, a front sub would allow for easier use of shallow slopes without having to worry about crossing over into further cancellation parts of the frequency response. So now that I think about it, the argument for a front sub is even stronger. Final thought on this.. There are crossovers being used ANYWAYS, so that group delay will always be present. We can essentially ignore it considering it is a constant, not a variable.

[@BenjaminSchickert]

@ thanks for the very detailed response Nick!

[@SQ_Silverado]

@@ResoNixSoundSolutions 🔥

[@icarusrising728]

Thanks for taking the time to produce and explain the topic.... You're missed over on DIYMA

[@adyandrey23andrey]

Such a nice breath of fresh air, Nick. I watched almost all videos from Peter and some others, but it's so nice to finally have another experienced installer that does youtube. There's so many new things I've learned from just a handful of your videos. And it all just makes sense. Don't worry if you sometimes feel like you go 'off track' as those side comments help make your point even better. The only negative thing I got from these last videos is remorse from buying 6.5" midbass as now I have FOMO on 8 inch drivers 😂. I heard you as well as read on said forums that they would get the job done more effortlessly.

[@adyandrey23andrey]

Also in regards to front subs, I've heard a competition car that had no rear sub. Just a Rebec WL10inch glovebox sub. It blew my mind hearing how good it sounded and absolutely forgot there was nothing in the rear. The guy also has 6.5inch Micro Precision 7 midbass in IB kicks. So maybe I shouldn't be so dissapointed on mine, even if mine are more budget oriented :) It's all about in the install and tuning, right?

[@chrishuyler3580]

Best midbass I've gotten out of a recent install is just putting them in the rear hatch of the '85 Rx7 and making sure the front kickpanel speakers can cover 150Hz on up. Everyone was like "have you thought about putting midbass in the doors?" Eff No, I'm not cutting these door panels. Those rear 6x9s you heard briefly absolutely hammer 200Hz down to 50Hz before falling off (I lose 6db from 60Hz going down to 20Hz). I really don't care that some bass lines pull rearward (perhaps they wouldn't if I lined the car with resonix). They didn't need a ton of EQ either, just a big cut at 100Hz to combat the fact it's a 0.9Qts driver in a sealed spare tire well, then a boost at 130Hz to fix what I assume is a 1/4 wave cancelation off the glass.

[@Alastasius]

"Having a front sub lowers the stage", LOL. Of course, because everybody knows that low frequencies are very easy to pinpoint in a well built and properly tuned system. Had a good laugh :')

[@SQ_Silverado]

I’m a noob and I knew this 😅

[@kewlbug]

Peter just did a car w no "midbass". Mids and front sub. Apparently really good

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@kewlbug I've done a car with just subs and widewands 🤷‍♂️

[@thatguykai479]

Definitely a lot to learn thank you. Constructive criticism is important in tuning so much to learn from others.

[@justinhogan7248]

Great video Nick you really put it down in a nice and coherent in this video. I was actually on that thread and I wish I was as straight forward as you I never want to hurt people's feelings or be confrontational I guess Im always trying to be "pleasant" lol.

[@bnaudio7813]

Am I getting this right. The measurements shown are door mounted midbasses in cars and trucks. Both have similar nulls dips but trucks suvs have it lower freggies. So, does kick mounted midbasses completly make the dips go away or a major improvement? Also, if i did a midbass in the kicks say ib, i would try to find a driver that would cover 50 to 300/400 range or cover 80ish to 300/400? i am new but have a project tahoe that i am fixing then working on the audio design. Perfectly willing to cut holes the kicks and actually ib subs in the cargo area. If this is the wrong place for this discussion, where should i go to discuss it? Just trying to do some research before i purchase something with the wrong info.

[@honeybadgerwrx]

Ok, quick question. I'm thinking about adding a front subwoofer either 8" or 10". Would it be okay if it was sealed and not being properly phased yet? I don't have the funds just yet to go fully active with a DSP for tuning. So it would have to be just how it is for probably 6 to 8 months while I gather the resources to get a proper tune and DSP setup.

[@alanworks4354]

I’m sooo glad I’m not a moderator there anymore 😂. Could you maybe do a video on the Haas effect, and how you can use precedence to steer midbass to where you want it?

[@jameslarkins7589]

Preach the data! Love these videos!

[@kewlbug]

To the comment about front sub pulling stage down etc.. My first thought about that install, or any front sub install, is Tuning/timing/phase etc.. (Also probably the only front sub he's heard) There's a dude here, full system, front sub don't wanna call him out. Point is, people can't just throw in a front sub, use a tape measure, and be good. No matter how solid the install.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@kewlbug this is the same for any install, front sub or not

[@kewlbug]

@@ResoNixSoundSolutions agree. Just reminded me of another dude floating around here, keeps insisting that tuning completely "by ear" is the way to go.. His car is.. not great.. even though he has 8s in doors.. drives me crazy BTW doing front sub some time soon. specifically to cover a 70 dip left front and 50 dip from rear

[@AlexWayne1]

okay im starting to randomly comment on videos now but i dont know where else to put it xD Do you think a pair of 8" Midbass like the Helix Ci5 S200 will perform well enough in IB in the firewall of a car to pair with a 18" IB Subwoofer in the Sparewheelwell?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@AlexWayne1 yes

[@AlexWayne1]

@@ResoNixSoundSolutions alright. thank you.

[@colbylaro9361]

Loving the controversial video..thanks Nick

[@mitchellomara7475]

Where do you have your mic when doing rta measurements?

[@Tomzuki.]

In your hand, sitting on the drivers seat. Moving mic method works great

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@mitchellomara7475 I sit in the car with a single mic and take a moving mic average around my head

[@rajasekhar9840]

Hey Nick, Heard from one the competitor whom you interviewed that front Sub facing firewall has good gains like 6db approx, rather than front sub facing the listener. Do you have any good video link which could show how yo fabricate front sub facing fire wall. Can you share any basic guidelines which need to be followed while doing front sub facing fire wall? Thanks

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@rajasekhar9840 I don't have any data to support that claim, nor do I think that it would gain even further output. I do think it has some benefits, but has nothing to do with output.

[@williamwilson7943]

Nick, any thoughts on whether the front and rear subs be playing the same or different bandwidths?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@williamwilson7943 defeats the purpose of playing the same bandwidth without a proper crossover. Do as shown in the video

[@TreyTfx]

So what I’m getting is just a lot of wins with a front sub better midbass, less rattles and it adds a ton of efficiency to your system. Im definitely planning for a front sub in my car hopefully I can squeeze it out before April.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@TreyTfx generally speaking, yes

[@kiklop8362]

What sub are you using as front sub? Thanks

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@kiklop8362 which install?

[@claysonwebster1622]

How can you use a speaker's T/S parameters to determine its box size

[@mustang351c4]

plug the specs into a box modeling software.

[@chrisa840]

i'd like to send you some measurements. I think i was really lucky with my vehicle. not too much cancellations. a center speaker could fix the upper midrange and the rear parcel shelf 8" could fix the midbass. although the bass isn't up front, but i'm used to large rear subs so i'm fine with bass not being up front.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

"a center speaker could fix the upper midrange" Do not do this.

[@chrisa840]

@ atleast it fills in what the mids mounted on the door cant play. But, it's mounted in the middle of the dash. It wouldn't hurt the center image? In this car it plays 500hz to 2khz.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@chrisa840 yeah don't do that. That's an easy way to get a very narrow soundstage. Do a standard 3 way.

[@chrisa840]

@ yes a 3 way is a lot better option, but sometimes we're stuck with stock locations. I can deal with a narrow stage for now

[@noncog1]

Any video coming for the mundorfs?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@noncog1 I think Peter covered it pretty well. What do you feel is missing?

[@noncog1]

@ResoNixSoundSolutions perspective, from someone who's name isn't on the product. I trust Peter, I do, but I also trust you, and Peter's name is on the product, so a 3rd party opinion would be appreciated.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@noncog1 I sell it. Wouldn't that be the same thing?

[@noncog1]

@ResoNixSoundSolutions wait, I see what you mean. No, I trust you to be subjective despite being a dealer, as you also sell alternatives. Being a dealer that also carries others vs having your own name on it is different

[@julesbruchez-theartofgrapp9646]

Door panels are shit for mid bass response. I spent a ton of time strengthening my doors in Lexus for my 6x9s. It does blow away SQ anything that I had before in the past but it would be much better in the kicks.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@julesbruchez-theartofgrapp9646 doors can work great if done right, and they're generally easier to get right than it is to get kicks right.

[@julesbruchez-theartofgrapp9646]

@ I have 3 kids I do have time to fabricate kick panels. I think my doors sound great. Will they win a SQ comp … no. But I agree a lot of work has to go into it to get it right.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@julesbruchez-theartofgrapp9646 where are you coming up with these assumptions? I've had highest scores at entire events with door mounted midbass drivers lol. Stop making claims that can't be backed please

[@julesbruchez-theartofgrapp9646]

@ No you are missing understanding. It’s my fault I’m lazy and don’t want to type. My car would not score well do to the face that I haven’t spent enough time on tuning my DSP. I have corrected a good bit of peaks and dips but I have plenty of work to do. My 6x9 components do sound amazing with no rattles. But I definitely need to just sit down and take my time tuning. That’s all. Also I typed my previous comment wrong . I should have said that the lower end bass is more in the shit end NOT mid bass. Now that’s just my opinion. I don’t expect to a get response of low end from doors . Mid Bass yes 80hz and above not lower that. I am also referring to not putting speaker pods and boxes on doors . I am referring to factory located with panels reinforced and completely covered in sound dampening.

[@CarGift-videos]

Hi Nick, I totally agree, not just the math and science, but specially about people! Good work!

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

Yep, silliness all over the internet

[@picassoimpaler3243]

Yeah, if your front sub os pulling your stage down, you are doing something very wrong in tuning. I will admit they can be tricky to properly integrate with the rear sub if you have one, but pull the stage down? Yeah thats kind of insane. My experience in the couple dozen ive installed is the POLAR opposite.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

No stop, you clearly didnt smooth your phase graph enough to make it look good. If you do that, you dont even need those front subs

[@artistic42]

Nick glad to see you sharing your experience and perspectives in this format. it's overdue IMO :)

[@jonnybrset3351]

I was supposed to go early to bed tonight but your video destroyed that plan ☺️ Must the front sub be minimum 10inch or will a 8inch do a decent job to help a 6,5inch driver in the door? Thanks for very informative videos. Regards from Norway .

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@jonnybrset3351 hey Jonny. Size really depends on what you can fit, frequency range, output needs, etc. there is no exact answer to cover a general question.

[@jonnybrset3351]

@ i see that😊 But my conclusion is it maybe better with a 8inch in a correct size box rather than a 10inch in a little to small box. Space is always a issue you know 🙈

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@jonnybrset3351 ehh, depends. We are crossing the subwoofer over higher than the subs FS, so the enclosure size can afford to be a bit smaller than ideal. Best to watch our video on how to use winisd to model drivers in enclosures :)

[@ssmith10pn]

Miguel's car had Morel MW9s in the front corners of the car...............

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@ssmith10pn and an arc Audio sub in the front....

[@williamwilson7943]

Hi Nick. Great info as usual. If i may, please schedule these to post earlier during the day. I'm a sucker for your content but really shouldn't be watching it until 2am. I'm pretty sure it's good for the KZbin algorithm if you have more views in the first several hours after posting it, as well. Also, some of your videos are informative, professional, friendly, and properly edited. In others, you're cussing up a storm, rambling, and seem unprepared. You even referenced that a bit in this video when you were struggling to find parts of the DIYMA thread you wanted to specifically reference. I don't get offended and I'm watching the content either way, but i think you need to stick to doing these in a professional manner, especially since you're using this content to promote your business. And your website is as informative and professional as it gets.

[@Tomzuki.]

I, for one, am all for calling people out on their BS, however unprofessional that may come across. If this format continues, preparing some notes beforehand may help keep the discussion on track

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

"please schedule these to post earlier during the day. I'm a sucker for your content but really shouldn't be watching it until 2am" Frankly, this is a you problem. I am uploading videos as a finish them. That is up to you to decide if you want to watch at 2am, or if you want to save them for later. "In others, you're cussing up a storm, rambling, and seem unprepared." The name of the playlist that this video is in is "Random Ramblings"... So yeah, of course there is rambling. Its just a discussion. As far as the cussing, thats how I talk without trying to put on a particular hat. These videos are meant to be raw. Zero script, zero politeness for the sake of remaining politically correct. Just information thats put out there in a way that I just start recording and have at it. Nothing about this was planned, and nothing about it was intended to be planned, and none of these videos will probably ever be planned. "especially since you're using this content to promote your business." This is not a promotional video. Sure, its on my business page, but this isnt that. ResoNix is a different type of company than most are used to. ResoNix is just me. Im going to be me, and thats it. I hope you enjoy it :)

[@CandBLawnCare]

Well said Nick. I love listening to you be you. I showed some restraint last night at 1am when I seen your video pop up and somehow waited til today to watch. Unlike the other night. Haha. Keep up the great work bringing us informative and entertaining content.

[@williamwilson7943]

@@ResoNixSoundSolutions I definitely enjoy the content. No more constructive criticism from me.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@williamwilson7943 Just giving my thoughts back. Its okay to play ping pong :)

[@Duramaxjon]

Great video, I have experienced exactly what you described here in my truck. You can have the nicest speakers you want, but that alone isn’t going to fix the issues in the midbass-sub crossover region. In my other truck I’m going to incorporate the factory front subwoofer and see what happens. I know I shouldn’t expect insane results since it’s just a small factory subwoofer, but it should definitely do something

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

Thank you. And if your factory front subwoofer on your truck is the one that is in the center console, heads up: it is not a great location. Lots of rattles from the center console for starters, but also cancellations that are bad just like what we see in the video. Passenger footwell is the best location generally speaking.

[@Duramaxjon]

@ResoNixSoundSolutions Thanks for the heads up, yes it is in the center console 😬 However, all the older GM trucks/SUV’s had terrible rattles and vibrations from that subwoofer but this new truck I can’t even tell it’s there, the center console does not make any noise or vibrate like the older ones. It’s surprisingly solid

[@netlawman2001]

there are alternatives for a front sub when you can have Clark Synthesis full range transducers mounted to the bottom of each of the front seats. The entire car becomes a unified speaker. You don’t need to pressurize the cabin air because you transfer vibration directly through the seat to your body. These are not crappy butt kickers. The detail is astonishing. I have them in both cars (professionally installed), in my family room theater furniture and on a sim racing rig. I have always been surprised there hasn’t been more experimentation.

[@Duramaxjon]

@@Bassahaulic correct, and the brand new trucks are much better. I had to use 2 boxes of Resonix CLD, 2 boxes of Blackhole Tiles, and various other products to get it under control in my 2011. My 2024 doesn’t have any rattles that I know of, but there’s lots of resonance coming specifically from the door panels. I’m still going to give it the same treatment though

[@Duramaxjon]

@@netlawman2001 I didn’t know what that was called but I know what you’re talking about. I thought it was really interesting when I learned about them in the new Range Rover seats earlier this year. I don’t know if there’s any other auto manufacturer that has used that technology yet

[@kai-isms6868]

I’ve noticed an overlap on diyma between: *People who can’t tune their own cars *People who constantly upgrade $4000+ pieces of equipment while they have weak 6.5s in poorly treated doors and even admit midbass is the weak point of their cars While they have the right to pay other people to do their work, and I wish I could throw money like that into a car, it kind of kills the DIY aspect of a diy forum when you’re going around telling people your way is the best way. Clearly your way isn’t working when see focusing more on 20khz than 60-200 where the vehicle actually has an effect. Also if you don’t have the ear to tune a car, how can you tell such a magical difference between thousand dollar speakers when it’s still in the oem location. Don’t get them started on op-amps and ess sabre dac chips… I know they are better but I see these people admit their midbass is the weak point and then focus on everything else. Crazy to be more worried about upper harmonics than the actual fundamental notes of the MUSIC you’re supposed to be listening to. Don’t get me wrong I have nothing against high end gear, but the things a forum chooses to circle jerk when “diy” is in the name drives me crazy

[@xTinBenderX]

46:23

[@jamesrichard6815]

You should make a resonix account on there so that you can contribute directly to these conversations

[@bmuenter]

LoL!

[@MrPat8703]

Ok PeterEuro /s

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@MrPat8703 Jesus Christ lmao