Is The JL Audio MAX Really The Best Audio Measurement System For Tuning A Car DSP? - Part 1

[@TreyTfx]

51:10 I’m glad you brought this up cause i have a method that I use that you may or may not disagree with, but I’m definitely willing to have a back and forth with you on that subject 😊

[@RAW-CAt]

I think the main reason for L to R discrepancies in max is the resolution of the measurements and the GUI. The window in TuN for RTA is less than half the screen and the default scale is 12dB per grid. If you want to see the crossover slopes, the FR gets super compressed and it LOOKS flat, but it's not. In REW however you always have full screen with 5dB grid. Much bigger resolution. Yes, you can zoom in on TuN and make it full screen, but no one is doing that.

[@adamdaniells9521]

You’ve made a few statements of late which are simply wishful… nobody does that?? Who says? Have you done a survey or assuming?? I will zoom in plenty and Smaart is the same as max effectively You have a voice and should be careful of the statements you make 👍🏼 especially ones you can’t validate or prove, stick to facts and objective things 😎

[@RAW-CAt]

​@@adamdaniells9521"I think" in the beginning should be clear to anyone reading that it's an opinion that can be disregarded. My opinion is based on online content I have seen from people using TuN and JL training videos themselves. It is a theory based on observation. If you have any other theories, it would be interesting to hear them.

[@rajasekhar9840]

Information overloaded. Pure knowledge and lessons Learnt. Really helpful, Thank you very much

[@jacobdunklee1]

I changed my default scales in tun to be a 50dB overall scale and 5dB grid. As well as 10hz to 20khz. Super easy to do and save as a default setup. I still keep it half screen because I am usually looking at other data while also looking at the RTA screen.

[@theplatinumcaraudio]

I had a basic max tune done a while back and noticed these discrepencies with measurements immediately. After the tune was done, I opened my laptop with rew and a moving mic and the measuremt was completely different there compared to what the max was displaying. One of the biggest differences I also noticed was how my stage was heavily pulled down to the midbass in the door in 200 hz area. On my tunes I never had it do that but then again I'm not a professional tuner. I know vehicle width can cause some of those issues as well (fullsize truck).

[@rccotrone3391]

11:30 Can you comment on the reasons behing the window and overlap RTA settings you use?

[@williamwilson7943]

Nick, that was really great, very informative, and well organized. I'm looking forward to part two. My tuning experience goes back about twenty years when I was just tuning by ear. After a long break, I came back to the audio frog mic, first with the stand and then a moving method with me in the car. REW was never intuitive for me for some reason and I'm currently using Tun 4 with a USB mic.

[@BK101BK]

I just started learning how to tune my truck with REW and a UMIK-2 mic, and it sounds so much better than how the shop that installed it left it. I still need to get the time delay and phase right, as I keep getting different readings. What do you recommend for setting the time delay if I have a Helix M Six DSP with optical input, using a USB-to-Toslink DAC?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@BK101BK use the ATM feature then dial by ear if needed. You can use the tracks and descriptions in the DSP tuning tracks and guide article on the ResoNix website. resonixsoundsolutions.com/resources/dsp-tuning-tracks-guide/

[@vipercrazy-9]

Start with setting time delay with measuring distance, then when learning how to set time delay by ear with a click track the sub delay(delay will be applied to all front stage) will be the largest/toughest to determine, try to Google what others are using as a starting point, I don't have my file in front of me. After the click track is aligned, play songs with good l/r balance and fine tune, the sub may take a lot of fine tuning. You can move the image slightly left or right as preference.

[@scottnannschultz306]

This is going to be a very interesting topic. I drove over 5 hours to get a Maxx tune by a very good tuner. I didn't like the tune and it was blamed on my car install and hearing for not being good. I later noticed there was a large spike at 1600hz when I held my single mic next to my right ear. It would drop if you moved the mic 3 inches away from that position. So unless one of the Maxx mics was in that exact position next to my ear that had the huge spike then I don't see how it could possibly compensate for that. Having said that, yes the install location of my pillar mids was not that good and caused that spike but I was better able to identify it with my single mic and EQ out the spike that really bothered my hearing.

[@piyush7243]

I have been tuning for 15 years or so and have always used REW and moving Mic method, i rhink this is one of the most accurate methods to measure and sounds similar to what you see on the graph2. I have used multi mic with Smaart and that is accurate as well. I am just too lazy to learn the software😅

[@rajasekhar9840]

I was thinking of purchasing a mic, and this video came at the right time, May i know what audio interface device do you use?

[@ZZPxFTW]

If it’s just for you, and you don’t have an audio business, just a umik 1 or umik 2 is a great tool.

[@rajasekhar9840]

@ZZPxFTW I was looking at XLR type microphone

[@ZZPxFTW]

@@rajasekhar9840 seems like way more trouble than its worth... Umik is a specifically designed measurement mic with reference files and usb.

[@Alex-y4b8x]

I’ve been using a 7 mic array with Smaart and the Geddes power method and feel like my results have been good. I don’t think you can get a perfect tune from an array and still have to make adjustments to dial it in. One thing that definitely helps is the use of band limited pink noise by ear after the initial tune as Nick has recommended many times.

[@kewlbug]

Max is a tool for shops to get cars in and out of the bay quicker. Similar goal to the audiofrog setup. But takes it 10 levels higher. It is a mistake to think it’s a high level competition device. Those using it at a high level I guarantee are having to fan dangle it some to get it to work good.

[@mattroadfeldt9012]

So my question is what do you use as an interface with the M23? Have you considered offering that microphone and interface on your website?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@mattroadfeldt9012 I use a behringer 2 channel, but there are plenty of options. And someone mentioned I should try to offer them right after this video came out. I am going to look into it.

[@TreyTfx]

So I’ll start off by saying my a novice tuner and I have 0 experience with the max. I’ve used it but I don’t have that in depth experience. Fortunately but unfortunately I’ve done a couple hundred tunes just on my car but I’ve been learning through trial and error. After a while the one that bothers me the most is the fact that you’re not in the car so I was very skeptical about most of the measurements especially impulse and phase. I haven’t mess with a max unit in months so maybe I need to go but just to see, but I’m pretty dead set on just using a single mic.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

Keep on learning! Cant wait to hear your car again next spring at Aggieland.

[@TreyTfx]

@ oh yeah if everything goes well it’s going to be an awesome update video.

[@kewlbug]

M23 and REW here. I use workflow and techniques very close to yours. (And peters) A bit more conservative with the eq work. And some impulse and phase alignment for mids and below. Ears to time all the high end. There’s been times where it’s done, and I’m afraid to touch it. Because it’s so damn perfect right off the bat. (I usually do touch it and make it worse 😅)

[@richardwoznicki6325]

Hey nick, do you prefer a usb or an xlr mic ? I understand an Xlr requires an audio interface but that aside what would you recommend for a 1 mic set up ?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@richardwoznicki6325 I use an Earthworks M23 mic

[@richardwoznicki6325]

@ good choice ! Thanks nick

[@iterawr]

What Q are those Max filters? Look crazy high

I did some testing the other day where I measured my set with several different pink noises and I ended up finding a post from the rew creator explaining that we should use periodic pink noise with the same sample size as measuring. Have you ever take a look at this?

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

Yes I have. I have found standard correlated pink noise generated by REW to be great. Something seems off with the newer versions of rew and it's periodic pink noise, so I didn't trust it. The standard correlated pink noise measures exactly the same on the rta as the periodic pink noise that sounds fine and was generated on an older version of REW.

@ yeah. Exactly what I found out as well. I’ve been using the same periodic pink noise for 1,5 years and when I did the testing a few weeks ago, the newer one was very different from the older one. So I kept using the older one I’ve been using.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

Yeah, the new version sounds like your speakers are blown lol

[@justinhogan7248]

Do you think this is inherent to the Max specifically or have you noticed this on homemade arrays aswell with say REW Pro being used vs Smaart/MAX tune? I'm thinking with my new Array when I finish this new build using REW Pro just because I'm so comfortable with REW and tuning the same way you are talking just using my own Array instead.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@justinhogan7248 it seems to be inherent with arrays that have poorly placed microphones.

[@andreigamboa5222]

Saw the whole video, i am Just about to learn to tune with my car, have 0 experience and i have to say your videos and your blogs are so good, now i have to put all into practice, i am happy to see that i made a Nice pick by buying a Umik-1.

[@satyavratadas1640]

Go with the Umik2 and donate to REW

[@andreigamboa5222]

@satyavratadas1640 i have the UMIK-1 brand New, is it really worth it for me to go for the UMIK-2?

[@bbfoto7248]

@@andreigamboa5222 You're fine with the UMIK-1 if you have the newer version with the USB type-C connector. Like with any microphone, take care of it: - Don't drop it! - Always keep it covered and put away in a dry environment when not in use (dust & humidity are bad for the capsule). - Keep it in the house when you're not using it, not in the garage or in your car where it will constantly be subjected to hot and cold temperature extremes. - It's not always possible, but try to always do your measurements and tuning when the temperature/weather/environment is average and comfortable, not when it's excessively hot, cold, or raining (high humidity). - If your microphone is stored in a cold or cool location, before taking it out of the box, let it naturally warm up and equalize to the temperature of the environment you'll be doing your measurements in. Especially in humid environments, you don't want to take a microphone out when it is cold and then immediately start to use it in a warm, humid environment which might cause condensation to form on the capsule...Think of an ice-cold beer or ice-cold drink that forms condensation on the outside of the can or glass due to the temperature differential... The actual frequency response of the mic can differ a bit due to extreme temperatures as well. Again, microphones and the capsules are sensitive to shock/impact, moisture, temperature, and dust. With all that being said, YES, the UMIK-2 is a better microphone...that's why it's more expensive. It uses a more robust and more reliable capsule, and the ADC (analog to digital converter) and internal electronics were improved for lower S/N Ratio as well as higher resolution and better reliability. The UMIK-2 has the more robust and reliable USB Type-C connector as well, whereas the original UMIK-1 used a more fragile Micro-USB connector which would become randomly disconnected more easily while in use, or fail completely. But if you take care of your UMIK-1 it should do a great job of providing you with the measurement data you need.

[@kewlbug]

I never have much thought to the JL mic layout. But looking at it now uh wtf. I believe even Jeffery has to have people “aim” them a certain way. I would love to dig into Natans setup, with one change. I don’t feel the spread has to be so far in the layout. I’m trying to simulate an average response, but let’s keep them within the realm of where ears will be..

[@jacobdunklee1]

There is no "layout" there is just an accessory provided and it is up to the person using it to define how the mics are positioned. You can, and plenty of others have, designed completely different layouts including the geddes design with max microphones. The nice thing is, the mic holders have been designed to attach to almost any thread style.

[@kewlbug]

Impulse is a tricky tool. You have to know what you are doing. As with everything. Things like freq limited sweeps. IR windowing, freq windows and other tools can help bring the impulse to a “usable” state. A note about “wraps”. If you’re talking about wraps, you are probably not looking at phase correctly. Especially guys throwing AP filters everywhere. Again. Filtering and windowing can reveal the “true, useful data” Bit of a brag.. but I have comments on better midbass than most the cars.. and I’m only running 6.5s in the doors. With 12s in the trunk. 🤔 little bit of support for your analysis about the dude wanting to cut up his car.. when most likely not necessary at all.

[@picassoimpaler3243]

But the computer says its in phase. So of course it sounds good

[@picassoimpaler3243]

But on a real note. I get why people love the max, the sales pitch of it is great and it works great in theory and if you have a ton of experience knowing how to interpret the data in a usable way. But what concerns me the most are that people who I know have heard good sounding cars, start to use max, then somehow let cars leave with a similar tune. My guess is they are trusting the equipment more than their ears, and convince themselves that the car is at fault because the max has 5 mics, and the best phase averaging software, so the tune can't be what is at fault.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@picassoimpaler3243 exactly what I have experienced from multiple people who have picked up the Max as their tool of choice. Its not the tool, but the sales pitch behind it that I think gives way too much false confidence in a measurement and convinces people that their ears or something else must be off.

[@completelyanonymous8683]

Who's the tuner with the recent JL certification? Kinda sucks to leave that out if this person should be avoided.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@completelyanonymous8683 I didn't say they should be avoided. They are actually an Incredible installer and fabricator, and a skilled tuner. I just think the Max has caused this person to stumble a bit and cause him to lose confidence in what he is hearing over a fancy and expensive machine.

[@PunisherOfDeath101]

I wonder if Jeffrey is one of those jl tuners you talkin about? 😂 As i learn more about tuning people like peter at ps sounds come out as genuine and more reliable than others.

[@williamwilson7943]

Another thought: it may already be recorded, but I hope Jeffrey Hald is one of the other tuners you plan to have on the round table discussion. He seems to be the leading proponent of the MAX and has built a successful business around it. I'd love to hear his thoughts on the subject.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

I mispoke a bit. It wont be a round table where everyone is talking at once. Itll be me and one other person at a time. I have asked him if he wants to come on. He is currently away on vacation but gets home in early December. We'll see.

[@bbfoto7248]

@ResoNixSoundSolutions Good video, Nick, but FFS, maybe don't record them while you're playing Fortnite and/or being distracted causing you to lose your thoughts and rambling even more, LOL?!?! Crikey! :/ This video could have been condensed into 1/3 the time. I can't speak for others, but more and more I'm no longer watching KZbin videos that are longer than about 25 minutes. I'd rather be listening to music or working on the actual tune! I know this just isn't how your brain works, but try to create and print a WRITTEN outline of the topics or ideas that you want to express in chronological order to help keep you on track and minimize the rambling and tangents. And just about every other sentence you are COMPLETELY contradicting yourself over & over, saying things like, "I'm not saying this is wrong, and I'm not calling this person out... but I'm saying this is wrong, and I'm calling this person out", LOL. From my POV this only comes across as being disingenuous. Keep it agnostic... There is absolutely no need to state the Specific Vehicle, or exactly what drivers/speakers/subs/DSP/amps are being used, other than stating that it's a very nice & somewhat expensive vehicle that most people will probably not want to "cut up", and that the equipment being used is Top Notch and fully capable of producing a high-end SQ system. Yeah, stating the experience level of the owner or tuner, and the TYPE of vehicle with the locations that are being used for the various drivers/speakers in the car can be relevant and can influence the measurements and end results. Good to know. But the other Specific information about the exact car, speakers, owner, or tuner are irrelevant. One of the good points that you made in this video is: ...Which measurement system and/or techniques and process will provide equally good (or possibly better) results in the shortest amount of time. ^I think this is probably the Main Point of your video, but it became lost and diluted with the tangents/rambling/disjointedness/excessive length. As you well know, many of us have put in a crap ton of time and the experimentation to learn many or all of these various processes and measurement equipment and the potential for the accuracy and quality of each end result. So I think it's a great idea to come to a definitive conclusion about Which Process & Equipment take the "least amount of time while providing excellent results" in order to save other individuals and shops heaps of unnecessary time, expense, and frustration. I think it would be beneficial as well if you can significantly reduce the length of these videos and the time it takes to get these points across in a concise manner. People learn best and will better understand the topic at hand when the information is organized and delivered in a simple, quick, step-by-step manner, and move on to the next bulllet point in a logical order, without tangents/distractions/rambling. Unnecessary tangents, rambling, and/or repeating the same point multiple times just serve to confuse and dilute the information that you are trying to get across and "stick" in people's minds. I hope this only comes across as CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and not a direct or personal attack, because Lord knows I'm far from perfect, and I would most likey struggle big time as well when trying to produce this type of video! So there's that. :-P I'm only "complaining" and making these points because I want to see you become even more successful than you already are. Both you and the depth of your knowledge & expertise on these topics as well as the products that you offer are a great benefit to this community. Keep On Keeping On! HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all!

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@@bbfoto7248 hey Bill. I'm sorry but I can't read all of that right now (thanksgiving dinner going on). But this wasnt recorded at the same time as me playing. Come on man lol If it's too long, don't watch it? It's in the rambling playlist on this channel for a reason :)

[@CandBLawnCare]

He was bitching about rambling tangents and repeating yourself and that’s exactly what his long ass comment did. Over and over and over. He has no time for long videos but has plenty of time to write a novel to bitch about it. Keep up the great work Nick. You be you cuz we love the long video rants and attention to detail you fill our brains with.

[@bbfoto7248]

@@CandBLawnCare I was a programmer in my younger years and still type pretty fast so it prollly took me all of 2 minutes, if that, to type my long-@ss bitchy little girl comment. ;) Just being my OCD self, sorry.. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. Happy Tuning!

[@kai-isms6868]

I just watch them on 1.5 speed, feels like you absorb the info even better. I didn’t feel like he was every contradicting himself as much as just not trying to get into trouble.

[@ResoNixSoundSolutions]

@kai-isms6868 "not trying to get in trouble"... Yeah, pretty spot on. Unfortunately, having a career in this industry I definitely can't just say exactly what I feel.

[@kewlbug]

change your profile pic to “JL max certified” ironically 😅 that sh”t is cringy