Response to @NOTLIKETHIS 's Roadmap for Dark and Darker

[@SUPERGREGGJR]

These are the kind of videos I love to see, a proper back and forth that isn't people screaming and vomiting ideas like a insane crackhead. It's much more better for the devs to have a simple back and forth rather than the aforementioned crackhead discourse, it honestly may be having more of a effect than we think on the devs because while multiclassing clearly is something they are using to buy themselves time it definitely was something that wasn't 100% thought out. I also am in agreeance that we need to see what exactly is being experimented and why, cause I've said this before, people are going to get tired of chasing after the cheese in a long maze and when there is not cheese then you won't have willing lab rats anymore. We also know from a recent podcast that sometimes there times where even the within the dev team they are arguing on which direction to take the game. Which I think it good to have but they did mention that this arguing did lead to them making haphazardly changes where they made gear super strong, then super weak, then super strong again. As funny as it was to hear that it did concern me a slight bit because it felt like children fighting over which toy is better than the others but I may be looking too much into that. Overall, this kind of discussion is the content I am desperate for and we need to be louder than the deranged crackheads of reddit/discord/some certain twitch streamers. That may distract the devs from their vision.

[@Wulfrim]

I agree with NLT on every point except for the marketplace proposal, which I don't feel strongly about either way. I admit though that I naively imagined all of these issues could be fixed with a single patch. I think my biggest takeaway from your video is the perspective that the primary issue (gear disparity) needs to be addressed before other issues, despite how much I might feel they detract from the game. Especially since gear disparity is probably a driving force behind those other issues

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@Wulfrim The good news, I think the work of coding and pushing the changes NLT describes is small enough to be in a single patch. But that approuch all but guarantees follow-up passes for additional balancing. I'd really like to wrap up a balance pass in this direction quickly and get back to content. I REALY want to know more about what he's discussing around the discords for premium gear sales. The idea of elites controlling a significant chunk of the economy is as distasteful as the US Congress being able to trade on inside information.

[@mosese1172]

Bringing items in to use in raid for the forge idea sounds good. Increasing the high risk and high reward would incentivize people to play smarter or to consider being passive to another player or team so they can work around to each other to get what they want out of the raid wether it’s bossing, pvp, crafting and mining, or questing and that would increase the likelyhood of PVE along with PVP as its very much more so PVP at the moment

[@Wolfyowns]

Gear stats should be mainly around pve, not like 25+ flat damage that ruins pvp fights. Gear should make pve easier and not one shot in pvp. Gear that gives like "2 undead damge" or "3 dragon damage" etc.

[@offspringfan100]

As a Timmy, I agree with the stat changes but I disagree with the premise that this is a pvm game. When I get a new piece of gear I shouldn't think "Wow this will be great against monsters" instead of "wow this will help me survive/fight against players better". I totally understand why people want this to not be a pvp game, I would love it, but that's not DaD and if this becomes a pvm game it will get very uninteresting very quickly just to appease people that don't ultimately appreciate the core gameplay loop.

[@Wolfyowns]

@@offspringfan100 To be clear, I don't want this to be a pve game (thats why i said what I did) what I'm saying is, gear should make pve faster and easier, not pvp. if you just keep giving gear stats that work for both pvp and pve, you just get faster pvp kill time and I hate that. I want longer fights, i want to enjoy the fights not win in like 1-2 hits.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@Wolfyowns Great comment. I think a different approuch to achieve the same result ( with less complexity ) would be to reconsider the HP totals of a lot of the AI and Mobs to scale down the gear required to dominate them. This can be a follow up to the gear rebalance that NLT calls for in his video. It's a single pass of fine tuning.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@offspringfan100 The Demi-god grind from preseason one was essentially a long and boring exploration of pve exploration. I got off that ride pretty fast myself, it didn't interest me. I think the basic formula which is Dark and Darker is about risk and reward. The closer you move it toward that PVE tipping point, the less interesting I'll find it. Sounds like you feel the same.

[@Wolfyowns]

@@WrathofKoopa-fs8le I agree, I have said just adding another 100 hp or something to players would help for pvp fights, (if you wanna do it the lazy way) I'm not against more hp as long as the Resist is scaled down so you don't have unkillable tank builds unless more resist gives less damage too, Like your tanky but your damage is bad. I just think doing all AI damage and health scaling, scaling gear and rebalancing takes WAY more time then just changing other stats to pve stats or adding a flat 100 hp. We do feel the same, I just want gear to make pve easier (beside bosses) so you can get to the players faster and have pvp be longer. I've had very few long fights and the ones that I had were way more fun compared to 1-2 tapping someone.

[@bolenarrow9286]

Gear should be simplified garbage stats should be removed. Add Elixirs that modify how you adventure like bonus pve dmg or mining interaction speed so the prep phase feels interesting. Add a weapon forge to inferno so you can bring white weapons with different gems that you can put in the craft weapons in inferno so there is a self created quest- add an elixir for this as well that increases quality or speed of forging. The current game feels like you PvP or boss or get lucky enough to find quest items. RNG in quests being so brutal sucks and feel bad while I more defined goal you can do is way better

[@acamera727]

Bro wants a mobile game

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@bolenarrow9286 The idea of a forge Point of interest on a map where we have to bring resources to craft items is a great idea with all kinds of emergent gameplay which could arise from it. I think the mechanic of bringing value into raids creates a very healthy risk vs. reward structure to build upon.

[@jaredh923]

The ranged meta has been horrible since playtest 1(?)/2. But i think the problem more comes down to mobility>damage from afar. Being able to stow weapons and run at +30-+50 more speed is absurd. I dont get mad if i get outplayed trying to close the gap on an archer. I get mad when i catch the archer, he's able to get away for whatever reason and reengage me from range again, resulting in my death. I think you should only be able to equipt weapon 1 and 2. If you want to put away your weapon entirely, your offhand slots should need to be empty.

[@NINJAgamerpt]

you are wrong because holsetring wepons is tied to dex/agi and the wepon itself. the system makes sence now we can argue if 2 handes wepons should take longer to holster and then maybe you are right.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@jaredh923 Speed and movement is the purest manifestation of character power in any game I've ever played. Solving for this AND the melee v. range balancing both feel like second order work to me, once the foundation is stable. Right now, the foundation is unstable. This puts me in a spot where I can't even see a way to test changes to this domain, let alone measure the inputs.

[@TemperateGreenBananaClassic]

@@WrathofKoopa-fs8le very true about the speed and movement, I also agree that people talking about ranged meta like it needs immediate attention is pretty flawed. Ranged meta is one of my least cared about aspects of the games balance. With the way the gear is, ranged meta is the only way to express skill in a 1vX or gear disadvantage fight and I think the ranged meta is a result (in part) of partly if not majority the issues with gear.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@TemperateGreenBananaClassic I played a bit of the work-in-progress druid stuff on test last night. The zoo forms, man, they are cranking the movement speed component all the way to 11. We are in for some wild times.

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

Im ok with the general state of the game, obviously class balance is a problem, pretty much every class that isnt barbarian or cleric is pretty weak. but thats been a problem since day 1 so. lol. but in terms of everything else, i feel like making multiclass less RNG if not outright removing the RNG, would help a LOT.(removing it would be unfun as it adds a lot of interesting things you can do. ironmace said theyll be limiting it in the future and adding subclasses/class specialization which could be the best iteration) And then the BIG BIG BIG one, is reduce squire white gear affiinity requirements to be at LEAST 100 affinity across the board instead of randomly some 100 and randomly some 125(which requires 100% quest completion and effectively 150 affinity) and then make Affinity ACCOUNT WIDE. Even if they dont make quests themselves account wide so that you can get the rewards if you want on other characters. Let the AFFINITY be account wide, since thats the important bit, unlocks more stuff from merchants, more services, and squire options. IMO these are the 2 big things to help make the game feel a lot better. cause right now i just have zero desire to play any other class because i dont want to deal with the quest grind, its abhorrent and unfun.. Id like to add when it comes to high roller... the biggest thing that needs to be done is DELETE RNG affixes. They are the biggest scourge to the game and do not belong in ANY shape or form. Obviously with this you completely rebalance all gear based on rarity and give them more stats and such based on that rarity.

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

also i 100% agree at low gear levels ranged classes feel VERY.. lackluster.. Except ranger, ranger is dumb cause bows(NOT CROSSBOWS) are far too strong. But of course with gear, they go crazy. Gear is the biggest issue in the game(when it comes to highroller). Also he makes a really good point when it comes to reselling and discords selling special items specifically to each other.(this is also helped IMMENSELY by deleting RNG affixes and rebalancing gear by rarity. ensuring disparity from uncommon to legendary isnt insane like it is right now)

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@TheCosmicAstro- I don't ever hear this mentioned though. I've played all the classes extensively. It is remarkedly unfun to play some of these ranged classes at low gear levels. Like eye-poppingly unfun. You start the damage stacking though and wiz pas fun to crazy pretty fast. Ranger is good if you can hit those shots, but I've never been burdened like that myself :). I would love to know more about what's going on in these discord backrooms visa vie the gear trading. Anywhere you can recommend I can go to learn more ?

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@TheCosmicAstro- I've said this a few times, but not to you. If you are really vibing on the new multiclassing system and you are having fun; I don't want to steal your joy. Of the three elements of multiclassing which trouble me, the grind is the least significant in terms of both game impact and the amount of developer effort needed to fix. In your 'merchant reputation is shared across all characters' world, do you think other characters can 'repeat' quests to claim some of the rewards ( like coin sacks, gold etc ) on each character ? If so, how do you prevent the gaming of affinity to jump chapters ?

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

@WrathofKoopa-fs8le so the way to make it so you can't cheese the system with repeating quests is to make it so the quests recognize the affinity account wide. So let's say I have 50 affinity for my leathersmith. It'll recognize I did 2 affinity quests for the leathersmith and thusly remove the affinity reward from all other characters for that merchant specifically. So basically you only gain affinity from a quest once.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

I like it. @TheCosmicAstro-

[@Slurmski89]

I thought IM was moving in the direction of deeper lore, better environmental storytelling, and greater immersion, overall. In my estimation, DaD was special because it had roleplay and competitive PVP sensibilities. I don't feel that way anymore. I know I'm in the minority here because I thought the much reviled "teaming" in solos last season was fun and interesting. Each game felt like a D&D storyline about friendship, deception, and betrayal! For that brief period, VOIP was an important gameplay mechanic, instead of just a way to talk shit. I'm hanging on to hope by a thread thanks to this kind of content. Fixing the core gameplay loop might set the stage for more of the roleplay stuff I like. But, realistically, roleplay enthusiasts probably aren't the target demographic anymore (if we ever were).

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@Slurmski89 I'm not sure we're ever going to see lobbies as friendly as we did in the back half of last season. The grind to demigod introduced that RP/PVE accidental order. Still, VOIP still works, and if you are charismatic enough, I'm sure you can get some emergent stories going. Check out Asymmetrical Soul on YT or Twitch. That guys still making it happen.

[@b00shy68]

im with you bro. roleplaying was funny as fuck and just coming across people who were really in character was cool. i feel like the game isn’t as connected to that part now that teaming is seen as bannable and people are more out for kills, gear, and competitive play.

[@by__z]

What about the classes themselves - Even before multiclassing - buffball is still meta. Having a barbarian with over 200+ HP, High PDR & MR is absurd. Base health should be lowered and if they want the more HP they should equip robust. Not already be High HP and equip robust now theyre 154 in white gear.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@by__z With the removal of multiclass, we can actually have conversations about class balance again. I'm looking forward to playing three's again. Everyone I played trios with 'took a break' when multiclassing came out. I've been messing around with druid on test for a few days. If it launches as is, Druid will, by itself, counter buffball with it's 3 seconds of immobility. Looking forward to it.

[@chaosgaming3297]

The video is great! but im more excited about how much you have been growing! keep up the good work, your almost to 1k!

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@chaosgaming3297 a bit bittersweet for me. I'd prefer that growth not come from the decline of something I love. Thanks for being here for it, and your well wishes.

[@Freyaundergrowth]

I like the idea of multi classing but it needs to be more contained and work as sub classes rather than here have all the perks and skills go crazy like a paladin cleric that has access to dark plate falchion long sword and armor perks or arcane rogue with crystal ball wizard hat and a few perks like sage or a toned down ice shield and three spells

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@Freyaundergrowth There is the idea of multiclassing, and there is the reality. I like the idea of a little more differentiation and build diversity, but it can't come at the cost of class identity nor can it cloak the capabilities of a player adversary in raid. If we are serious about more build diversity, I think we should do the hard work of looking at the vast ocean of unused perks, skills and spell we have today and either buff them or redesign them to the point that they are at least situationally usefull.

[@TemperateGreenBananaClassic]

I disagree with the blank disregard of the potential in game modes. If the game mode adds something that doesnt detract from the main game then it can only help the game. For example fortnite has successfully supplemented its tired and tried gameplay loop with copious game modes to great success. Game modes will keep people enjoying and interacting with your product for minimal design investment by the dev team if assets are correctly re-used.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@TemperateGreenBananaClassic You are right. I'm being somewhat chevalier in my dismissal here. I think new game modes can be low cost easy wins if done correctly. I just think that right now, given limited resources and the state of the core game, they can't be a priority. I get it, if you've got green interns on the team and you need to put them in their own sandbox where they will first do no harm, great, just tell us so we aren't left befuddled by the perception of them apple polishing low priority stuff in a content drought.

[@BlackWolf4112]

Fantastic stuff. I hope these talks and videos have an effect on ironmace.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@BlackWolf4112 I hope so as well. This quote has been ringing in my ears the last few weeks though. “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he never was reasoned into.”

[@sa-db5ro]

I think that multiclassing deserves a chance. My suggestion: Each class can only pick one class to multiclass into, and only a few (3/4/5?) predetermined perks/skills/spells are offered (depending on your base class). Smite, sprint, slayer, etc. should not be available to everybody. A fighter should not be able to take iron will AND antimagic. If a cleric is taking hydra, they should not have access to life drain. With only a few options, class identity is maintained while also keeping increased build diversity. My problem with ranged damage has always been the slow. Maybe body/arm/headshots with arrows/bolts should only slow if a ranger perk is equipped. If the purpose of franciscas is to catch up, it should not also be chunking people. The inverse could also be true with throwing knives. I am not sure about how to address frustrations with spellcasters, it feels like you win if you have MDR and lose if you don't.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@sa-db5ro I'm open to trying new things. I just think radical experiments should be contained to the experimental branch so half the population doesn't revolt every time we want to test something radical. Most people rebut that, saying the population is too low to effectively test on the test server. I retort, then remove the barriers of entry, make it free to test or provide incentives to capture the data you need. That's the place to play with idea's like multiclassing. Population divide is a poor strawman when hoisting this kind of change on the live branch causes so many folks to take the wipe off. I don't have an easy fix for the conversation of ranged vs mele damage and playstyles. I would argue it needs more inspection and data driven experimentation, AFTER you get the power budget baselines established.

[@sa-db5ro]

​@@WrathofKoopa-fs8le I agree. If only access to the test branch wasn't advertised as a reason to get the founder's edition package. Considering the recent drama with the escape from tarkov community, it seems that the timing is especially poor for doing something like this. Good video btw. I especially liked your challenge to IM about the data collection. I would pay money to see the deltas in class and weapon playrate/winrate after multiclassing.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@sa-db5ro I don't know about you, but as someone who purchased the Hold the Line addition, I'm more than happy to for Iron Mace to grant all players access to test if it helps the game. Just throw us some Blue/Red shards to make it up to us. Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it.

[@snakyjake9]

If you get rid of trading, you disrupt two core aspects of the gameplay loop. Self found is fun, and in the future it would be awesome to have a SF tournament mode which is limited to special events. It shouldn't be the exclusive focus by any means. What's the point of earning gold if you can't use it to buy gear? What else can you use gold for? The game needs more gold sinks, not fewer. Right now the quests are an optional way to unlock crafted gear / gear of higher quality from vendors, and without trade more players would feel compelled to gain access to this gear on their personal account. That means more players feel compelled to grind out quests they wouldn't otherwise want to do.

[@snakyjake9]

Not only would this make gold meaningless and compel players to grind out quests they don't want to do, but you also make the process of regearing significantly longer after a death.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@snakyjake9 Good points. I'd counter by saying, if they were to tack in this direction, those are things that would need to be solved for. Additional things of value to spend gold on, and additional pathways for gear acquisition while in the home phase, borrowing @nothlikethisjoe 's nomenclature.

[@TheCosmicAstro-]

trading existing is fine. the game RELYING on trading is not fine. You shouldnt feel like you basically have to trade to be able to properly engage with the game at a high level. If RNG affixes didnt exist, you could take a day or 2 to find Epic gear to create the build you want and then run it. Rather than right now basically being forced to spend hundreds of gold or thousands just for a single piece of epic gear with the right modifiers. Its ridiculous and anti-fun. We didnt download trading simulator. We shouldnt feel like were playing trading simulator.

[@snakyjake9]

​@@TheCosmicAstro- Trade was legitimately annoying before the marketplace, and when naked timmies were forced into the same lobbies with BIS'd out chads. Now, you can completely avoid trade. You can already piece together a decent kit purely from the dungeon, and then obtain curated kits from other players you kill in the dungeon. If you're playing like that though, you have to recognize that treasures and gold become almost completely meaningless. You might spend some gold on meds or vendor equipment, but you don't have many big ticket items that require you to save up. Maybe you save up gold for more stash tabs or quest items, but that's about it. Some of us enjoy saving up gold so that we can buy curated kits in the marketplace. Should the game have other gold sinks? Yes, I'd love to save up and buy a castle where I can display all the trophies of my dungeon achievements. Should gear disparity be reduced? Yes, but you don't need to completely remove random stat rolls that help to provide build diversity, you just need to balance them.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@TheCosmicAstro- @snakyjake9 I want to bump this whole thread. Lots of good thoughts here IMO. At some point, dialing in the value of gear will come down to taste. I'm strongly in agreement with Astro's point of : "trading existing is fine. the game RELYING on trading is not fine." I strongly agree here because of several reasons, but to punctuate NLT's organizing principle, it requires you to be out of the dungeons not playing the game, but doing chores before you get to play the game.

[@patrickking7115]

His issues with reselling is dumb because ultimately some people enjoy it. And the only people who complain about it are people who are poor. Or people who are new and neither of those groups are affected by it.

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@patrickking7115 I agree with his premise, that unchecked corruption and manipulation of the markets for advantage aren't great for the game. If it is sophisticated enough that it's spread outside the game itself, I would want it explored and ways found to reign it in. Lets be clear, he's talking about folks effectively cornering markets and driving a loss in value. Gold Inflation eventually becomes a game's system issue. He clearly has some inside information about what's going on at the top end, I wish he'd go into more detail here.

[@Jack_Livezey]

lol W refresh!?

[@Jack_Livezey]

i already watched it like a good noodle

[@Jack_Livezey]

me fave part was the market consolidtation take. i have always been BAFFLED that the devs struggle to manage rmxdt when their whole ass market system is completely unchecked and free. I am once again asking for government intervention of the economy.

[@beh256]

Crazy he was crazy one they had to look him in a room a rubber room a rubber room with rats and rats made him crazy crazy he was crazy once they locked him in a room a rubber room a rubber room with rats and rats made him crazy

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@Jack_Livezey Thanks for Noodle'n.

[@TheRealestGoober]

50 seconds ago?

[@WrathofKoopa-fs8le]

@TheRealestGoober KZbin was acting really funky for me around the time I launched this vid. It was unlisted, published, then unlisted again over a ~20 min period. Not surprised we saw weird timestamp stuff. Regardless, thanks for watching AND troubleshooting !