202. American Civil War: Gettysburg

Tom, Dominic and historian Adam Smith look at the most famous battle of the war and Abraham Lincoln’s 272 word address that became one of the best known speeches of all time. They also discuss the conditions of the black population during the conflict.
The release date of the last episode, 'Aftermath & Legacy', is Monday 4th July.
However, members of The Rest Is History Club get all episodes RIGHT NOW, so head to restishistorypod.com to sign up.
Producer: Paul King
Twitter:@TheRestHistory@holland_tom@dcsandbrook
Email: [e-mail]

[@launiesoult3248]

I apologize you did say something about Vicksburg I apologize

[@michaelhenry5140]

FIRST! Well done, gentlemen - well done!

[@curtkoehn3906]

I find nothing romantic about the Civil War and especially the Confederacy. Many people over the years have tried to whitewash and romanticize the Confederacy and their cause. General Grant summed up the reality of the situation as good as anybody who was there: “I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse.”

[@airmark02]

....free Palestine

[@RobbyHouseIV]

I hear some people get a high feeling of ecstasy and grandeur when engaged in virtue signaling. Is it true?

[@beachcomber1able]

What kind of emotions do you feel when supporting the slavers?

[@Matthew-p2h]

The point of this conversation seems to be to explain why anyone ever rejected Britain and the British empire ever in anyway anywhere in the world. Subtle cultural arrogance is all the Brits have left, so they are clinging to it.

[@ComedyJakob]

I think this gentleman drastically overstates the CSA's odds of winning the war without foreign intervention.

[@lutherandross3165]

I think the notion that even foreign intervention would have helped the south’s odds is a vastly overstated view. Backing the south at this time would have been making a commitment to a total loss of resources without much upside in the event of a win & no chance of ever recouping those resources. You also had 90 years of industrial development in the US between the revolution & the civil war. It was a well established economic power at this point with armies gearing up to hundreds of thousands. It was a logistical nightmare for both England & France during the revolution. It would have been doubly so at this point & for far less to gain. Basically, it was never going to happen anyway.

[@dilladinbutler5811]

Agreed

[@launiesoult3248]

Yeah there wasn't much of a chance for them to win the war without without foreign intervention

[@jeffaltier5582]

I'm so glad you also stressed the importance of Vicksburg. I think people can get so caught up in Gettysburg that they miss the fact that Vicksburg was the real dagger in the heart of the South. The war was won by the North on those couple days in July.

[@launiesoult3248]

I think you Brits are missing the point don't forget about Vicksburg

[@richardhildebrand104]

Picket's charge was crazy and suicidal. Lee not having Stonewall Jackson to coordinate the strategy was crucial. Ewell and A.P. Hill didn't have the strategic capabilities that Jackson did.

[@Terinije]

Two points to note: 1) An absolutely enormous blemish against Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia was the fact that they literally kidnapped freed black Pennsylvanians during the Gettysburg campaign and hauled them back with them on their retreat into bondage. That abhorrent behavior is rarely brought up regarding the supposedly gentlemanly myth of the Southern officer corps. 2) Meade didn't arrive on the battlefield until the end of the first day, which left operational field command of the Union forces in the hands of a general by the name of Abner Doubleday. Decades later, this same Abner Doubleday would retroactively (and falsely) be declared by Major League Baseball to have been the inventor of baseball. So good old mythological Abner is to blame for cricket's downfall over here.

[@Terinije]

I personally disagree with the assessment that Pickett's charge wasn't doomed. They had to cross a mile+ of open terrain under fire in full view of the Union Army. It was a reverse situation of Fredericksburg, where Lee shattered a Union army that tried to do the same thing under similar circumstances. Lee needs to be called out for his victory disease here. Pickett's charge was 10x worse of a decision than Grant's greatest blunder at Cold Harbor.

[@tommonk7651]

Pickett's charge had no chance to succeed.

[@johndevlin2149]

Not all Irish immigrants were against the war. About 180,00 fought for the Union. A substantial contribution. Conversely, about 20,000 fought for the confederacy. Why they failed to point this out while rightly siting Irish violence against black people in New York is beyond me. Perhaps it isn’t their cup of tea. Still, I do love the podcast.

[@bweresquirrel8279]

Re: 23:20 "But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate-we can not consecrate-we can not hallow-this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract." - Abraham Lincoln

[@b.alexanderjohnstone9774]

Didn't we (the British regulars) arm black Americans during our fratricidal kerfuffle 90 years or so earlier?

[@chaseschneier1076]

The reason to fight in Pennsylvania, in addition to getting fresh supplies and hoping to hasten an end to the war with a spectacular victory on Northern soil, was to get to Harrisburg, which was a major rail and troop training center, and cause a major disruption to the Union Army supply and troop transport. His scouts got as far as Camp Hill which was just across the Susquehanna River from Harrisburg.

[@RobbyHouseIV]

The capture or threatening the capture of Harrisburg was bate. This was an idea born from the history of the AoP moving at glacial speeds. Of course, Lee became disabused of this idea when Longstreet's paid spy informed them the the AoP was much closer and that Meade was in charge.

[@nickcalmes8987]

I love your coverage of history. I discovered you this week. The emancipation proclamation also decreed that all slaves in areas of the south under Union control was now Union property and they were set free. One of the consequences of this is that huge African American caravans would travel with Union troops. By the way Lincoln and Churchill are the two men I consider the greatest men of the last millennia

[@ropeburnsrussell]

A small quibble, the fences were rail fences, not picket fences.

[@blairhicks9553]

Been to Gettysburg a couple times and watching reenactments with a thousand actors and realizing there were 100 times that many soldiers on those fields in 1863

[@karsten11553]

"Self-emancipation" - I love that word!

[@raoulduke8003]

Loving these.

[@KOTRT777]

You should have mentioned that the rioters also resented that wealthy men could pay a $300 commutation fee to avoid being drafted.

[@SSNewberry]

William Cuthbert Faulkner is a great writer and a complete shit (in a Martin Luther sort of what) in what it would cost in human lives.

[@robertpower4595]

Custer has been credited with an important contribution to the Union victory (of avoidance of defeat) at Gettysburg. It is said that he led two or three cavalry charges which were significant in the Union victory. Is this fair comment or exaggeration?

[@IanCross-xj2gj]

Listen to the Podcasts on Custer by the same duo of historians.

[@normbale2757]

The influence of Thomas Parker is found in the Gettysburg address.

[@Roarsta88]

Hi Shane 👋

[@scottscottsdale7868]

In the Age of Trump, the Gettysburg address brings tears to my eyes. It is that powerful to a thinking and feeling American.

[@airmark02]

TDS much? .. there is help , please get some. 😊

[@remycallie]

"Jackson has lost his left arm and I have lost my right arm" -- Robert E. Lee. Jackson died anyway. The place where he died is a national park site which up until recently was called "the Stonewall Jackson shrine." They changed the name to "the Stonewall Jackson death site." :)

[@waxer32123]

I disagree with the (commonly held) idea that the battle of Gettysburg broke the myth of Lee’s invincibility. That’s a creation of history written years later. As late as the summer of 1864 both union and confederate officers refer to Lee as a man who has never been beaten in battle. It would seem that at least during the war, Gettysburg was seen (particularly in the south) as similar to Antietam (a tactical draw). It only become the turning point of the war in hindsight, but the confederates still thought they could win as late as fall/early winter of 1864

[@curtkoehn3906]

It is an unmistakable loss when you are forced to retreat and leave your opponent in control of the field of battle. What officers were still referring to Lee as unbeaten? It certainly wasn't General Pickett.

[@waxer32123]

@@curtkoehn3906 I agree it’s obviously a loss. Historian Gary Gallagher though extensively documents that it generally didn’t impact the perception of Lee amongst his men or among the Union by and large. I’m no civil war historian by any stretch, but Gallagher provides mountains of primary sources post-Gettysburg to back up this claim