Trek, Wars, Who? Trashing the Classics

[@Barada73]

There is also the claim that "everyone hated The Empire Strikes Back when it first came out, just like they hate The Last Jedi." This is 100% false and is either the product of ignorance or straight up dishonesty.

[@mknightshadowstorm]

I was only eight at the time, but I remember the general consensus of the fan base being that they loved the movie, but hated the ending, only because things were left unresolved, so they were anxious to see the next one. I don’t remember anyone saying they didn’t like it. I thought it was better than the first movie even as a kid, but I was so impatient to learn what happened to Han Solo.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Nathan Rosario Now that’s what I call a “rumor that appeared out of thin air for no reason” 😁🤷‍♂️.

[@PaiSAMSEN]

Similar to the "everyone hated [random pre-2009 Star Trek] when it first came out", specifically one using an obscured newspaper article as a "proof" of that. (As if newspapers were never known to exaggerate things to catch attention).

[@timf7413]

In all fairness, most of the claims I saw to that regard where primary focused on critical consensus, which was objectively somewhat mixed for ESB. (to what extent in the overall scheme of things and/or compared to the original Star Wars can be argued, but it's an objective fact in got it's share of negative reviews from critics.) As for contemporaneous audience reaction, there's no realm way to judge that other than anecdotal personal experience, which will vary from person to person, so there's no way to objectively claim someone is dishonest or lying when they relate that experience. That said, what does it really matter? IMHO too many people these days have some sort of fixation on validating their opinion of a work by claiming it's in line with the consensus. I like a lot of things that aren't popular and don't like a lot of things that are, it has absolutely zero impact on my enjoyment of the things I like.

[@timf7413]

I'm not necessarily disputing any of that, I'm just saying it is possible to claim something like ESB had a mixed reception, so long as you qualify that to indicate the specific sense you are using to measure.

[@metadude1234]

"Nerds had a safe place, we need to take it from them"-Modern Bullies

[@RodimusPrimal]

@Cap285 WOW. I've been saying that for about a year now. It all makes sense. Nerds used to be able to enjoy their favorite franchises until the normies came in.

[@rayvenkman2087]

Never has so few words describe so much about the current day nerd culture environment.

[@MjolnirsPower]

The problem here is that the "bullies" aren't from outside the community, but in fact it is other nerds who ARE the "bullies". reinforcing what I've been saying for years, Nerds are Terrible people.

[@timf7413]

I would argue the opposite is also true in that many fans tend to regard these properties as a sort of private club that engages in excessive gatekeeping.

[@dugonman8360]

I've noticed that whenever these "certain types of people" ask (demand) that the creators change their products to suit their needs, they have sleeper agents who come in and then start to change the fiction to suit their needs. Of course it inevitably goes up like the hindenburg and then they blame the audience of the fiction for not liking it and scurry away like rats carrying the plague to the next host city to spread their disgusting fleas. Evidence? Marvel comics, star wars, star trek, doctor who, western video games, the witcher, DnD, magic the gathering, she-ra, thundercats, and so many more I can't even name. Its almost as if, hypothetically, that the people who do this had a burning hatred for the source material and change it to their needs as some weird form of revenge. Hypothetically speaking of course.

[@scottknudsen6611]

"Those original properties are lame, dated and kinda crappy when you think about it. That's why we're pathologically obsessed with taking them over." -modern fandom.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

scott knudsen I don’t 😁🤪🤷‍♂️!

[@SGlitz]

Modern fandom: We are so vastly superior to them that we must remake them in our image. :(

[@georger64]

Yes, STTNG was “lo-fi and a little quaint by today's standards“.

[@DC8091]

scott knudsen “modern fandom”= idiotic hippster trash and other loosers tryin to be “cool” and “look smart”

[@DC8091]

SGlitz Correct, though I will add to stupid, naive, and incompetent to us (who they refer to as them) that they can only battle us with bullshit and claims they can’t support or defend

[@silencedmaxim5889]

What I hate about new sequels is they bring back old characters for nostalgia just to brutally destroy their character to show how the newer characters are better.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

When Mary Sue wrote her now infamous slash fiction, she did almost the same thing, and was made fun of for it. And now it is a living. And it doesn't even have the excuse of being a 15-year-old's personal wish-fulfillment power fantasy.

[@T.R.R.Jolkien]

You are exactly right

[@JohnnyUndaunted]

I bet that half of the people who has ever said "the original was never Shakespeare" as a copout had probably never read an actual Shakespeare story to begin with.

[@erikhawkke4861]

I bet you're right.

[@RobertWilkinsonJKekMaloy]

Midsummer nights dream is my favorite

[@michaelmartin9022]

Shakespeare was kind of forgotten for nigh two centuries until the Victorians "rediscovered" him. Read some old British stories about upper-class public schools (a popular genre of light reading from the 1860's to 1940's) and see how often the Bard of Avon is mentioned by these highly-educated boys who are otherwise constantly spouting literary references (to the Greek and Roman classics). And that's without even opening the "did Shakespeare even write Shakespeare" can of worms. Other members of his family don't seem to have even been able to read, let alone write.

[@RictusHolloweye]

Meaning no offence to the bard, but The Merchant Of Venice was utter rubbish!

[@Thiborfirenz]

considering that Shakespeare is not taught in schools anymore your probably right!

[@RodimusPrimal]

This is the most well thought out argument for those of us passionate about our most beloved franchises. Well done again!

[@rayvenkman2087]

Think you can do a serious rant on James Roberts' fanboys who keeps on insisting that he should write every TF story from now on? You can show half of the dumb bullshit in Lost Light including everything to do with Anode as a character and not have to add anything else. Disprove the notion that he's the Robert Holmes of the series and how he can't craft a decent ending to save his life. Just so they can shut up about it. I utterly detest this fandom because of their arrogant attitude towards the other parts of the brand including Furman's body of work. They're practically the normies of the TF community with how they seem to only get their knowledge from the MTMTE/LL books. I like to call James Roberts 'Steven Moffat Jr' as they share a lot of similarities including their ego driven concepts(Rung as Primus anyone?) that shows a lot of disrespect towards what came before them. Be sure to give me credit for that nickname.

[@andrewgrant2990]

I totally agree with Rodimus Primal (wait are you the RP? :) & Michael! I think this perfectly encapsulates the fandom debates issue! RB may come across differently to different people, but if we were honest with ourselves we wouldn't always see through nostalgia glasses. I would love to see a follow up video discussing sequels/ reboots done right, It felt like a tease to see the Karate Kid footage when thinking about how they (excellently) handled & brought back Cobra Kai!

[@hastekulvaati9681]

"Our most beloved Franchises..." I think it's the addiction to beloved franchises that is the problem. The constant demand for new additions to the cannon leads to ever lower quality, straining of ideas and repetitive plots. The tail end of old Star Wars, Trek and Dr Who weren't exactly high points in their history; Insurrection, Attack of the Clones, Battlefield. There was over 20 years between the cancellation of TOS and the start of TNG, 10 years between TOS and the Movies. 14 years between RoTJ and The Prequels. 15 years between Old Who and Nu Who. These things benefited from having time to breath. People say they hate the new shows. And I don't doubt that they do. But they still seem to find time to watch them and go on line to complain about them. When they could be doing something else. Just walk away. Find pastures new. You can access any novel, TV show, film or album in history.

[@justinthomas7222]

@@andrewgrant2990 yes, that's the Rodimus Primal from KZbin.

[@MDMetal]

NOBODY has done a "better" job of trashing the classics than Disney Wars, CBS Trek, and BBC Who.

[@fuzzywzhe]

The reason they do this, is they want you to pay for new stuff, and not watch the huge library of OLD stuff, which is far cheaper for you to watch. It's just money. That's why. I am perfectly happy watching films that are 80 years old. Guess who doesn't make money when I watch Safety Last? Nobody makes money. It's in the public domain and even if it wasn't, it would be around $2 to watch, maximum. Not $15 for a theater ticket. People wonder why they are intentionally trashing older films. That's why. You have to remember that making films, is a business. You want to know why they push "woke culture", it's in order to change the culture enough so you don't WANT to see the older films. That's why older films are "racists", "misogynistic", etc. They are attempting to make them politically incorrect.

[@ForceMaximus84]

fuzzywzhe Except they don’t do themselves any favors by trashing the franchises and the longtime fans in the process. As if they expect the next generation either will stick around no matter what or they won’t watch the older stuff, which loses them money in both cases. Unless they’re all about social justice, which only goes so far, it’s more self-destructive than anything.

[@kyriakospentheides]

@@fuzzywzhe''Woke culture'' is something I have often criticised (as a leftist libertarian, so not at all right-wing) but the actual main problem at the moment is just how poor quality the shows are. Progressive politics have long been a mainstay of science fiction television, from Star Trek to Doctor Who, but they were more about arguing points rather than pushing an unnuanced identity politics in which the world is a simply black and white and that having diversity is the be all and end all of progression. 'Star Trek: Discovery' is a good example of this. The show is probably the least progressive and militant of all the shows (at least during season one, I didn't see much of the second) but because it has a star who is both black and female, "identity politicians" will treat it as progressive. The second newest series of Doctor Who (which had about two OK episodes at most) featured an episode that supported capitalist abuses of workers, but because it starred a female Doctor it is seen as somehow progressive when it isn't. A simply ''racism = bad'' episode just doesn't cut it as there is a lot of things wrong with society, and not all of it is connected to racism.

[@JamesLaserpimpWalsh]

BBC always made Dr Who

[@creativeguy1138]

Which is why I don't care to watch the Willow series or see the new Indy.

[@ZontarDow]

"it wasn't made for you" is correct, I don't like badly written movies and they are therefor not made for me.

[@WieldingEminator]

You just made an immortal quote. We should have this quote ingrained into history.

[@garym6315]

9:13 - This is what I've been saying about the new Thundercats and She-Ra reboots. "Its for kids" they argue, but they were always made for kids, they just didn't treat kids like brain dead idiots back then.

[@ravagingwolverine]

Great point. Star Wars may been been for kids, at least partially. But it had staying power for decades because it wasn't "just for kids" and didn't pander to them. All kinds of people could enjoy it. Robotech/Macross has also enjoyed staying power, on a smaller scale, because it also was more mature than the typical kids show, without going over their heads.

[@chaddfrancis2179]

@NotJo of course,most parents just slap Tablets infront of their kids and expect them to learn from that.

[@hastekulvaati9681]

"This is what I've been saying about the new Thunder Cats and She-Ra reboots..." It must have been very unsettling for you. You know, when the new She-Ra reboot didn't meet your intellectual needs. "They didn't treat kids like brain dead idiots back then..." And grown men didn't watch Thundercats.

[@garym6315]

​​@@hastekulvaati9681My point totally went over your head didn't it. I didn't say I watched these new versions and I didn't even say I watched the old versions. I didn't even say I cared about either franchise. What I said was that they didn't talk down to kids in the 80s and they are now. They gave kids in the 80s good animation, good storytelling, pointers on ethics and morals. Now they just treat all kids like toddlers. Why would you defend that choice? You think kids deserve crap in their entertainment?

[@alexjames7670]

Lucas: "It a kids film (A New Hope)" Me: "Right. That scene with Owen and Beru's charred skeletons outside the burning homestead were going to be made into plush toys, right?"

[@the7percentsolution]

@@yalbad5160 Lucas said he made the movies for children many MANY years after making them. In fact I believe he said it during an interview post-prequels, after he got a bunch of criticism for those movies which he severely dumbed down. It's like you didn't even watch this video at all. You're proving Michael's point perfectly.

[@countmarkula1993]

@@yalbad5160 He-Man and Star Wars are on very different levels of intellectual maturity. Star Wars isn't overly adult but it is far more serious then a cartoon about a guy in a loin cloth who says "By the Power of Grayskull!". Lucas said the movies were for kids after STAR WARS 77 was released and he learned that he could make billions off of toy merchandise. Star Wars is the reason why you see action figures made for big action/fantasy movies. That wasn't a thing until Star Wars made it a thing. They didn't even take the merchandising that seriously either it was like a "fuck it, sure we'll have some cheap toys made for it". They were so unsure about toy merchandising, people received a cardboard IOU for their toys that hadn't been made yet because they didn't commit until after the movie came out and did gang busters. That's why Lucas was able to cut a deal with Fox to retain all merchandising rights (before movie-toys became a thing). Thus Lucas began his quest to further make Star Wars more kid friendly (1997 revision is key evidence) . Luckily other brilliant minds were around to help bring about the darker more adult tale in Empire Strikes Back. But then Lucas took the reins back completely (or almost completely) in Jedi, and that's why Jedi is the way it is...and the prequels. BTW you do realize adults were raving about Star Wars as well when it was first released in 77? Did you even watch this video? Everyone wants to say their movie is for kids, because then parents will take their kids/families to see it. Which means more tickets sold, which means more money = successful toylines, successful toylines equals more money. Fantasy is not strictly for children. GoT is an example, and before that the original Conan the Barbarian movie (He-man is actually related to that topic funny enough). If you believe Star Wars is just a children's film series, why are you here? That kinda makes you a weirdo lurking around content you perceive as kid's films... I will now cite a direct quote from Lucas in a 1977 Rolling Stones article. That directly contradicts his statement about it being a child's film. It was meant to be appealing to everyone, or anyone who wanted to imagine the world as a better place. “You can't, and how do you explain a Wookiee to an audience, and how do you get the tone of the film right, so it's not a silly child's film, so it's not playing down to people, but it is still an entertaining movie and doesn't have a lot of violence and sex and hip new stuff? So it still has a vision to it, a sort of wholesome, honest vision about the way you want the world to be. I was also working on themes that I worked with in THX and Graffiti, of accepting responsibility for your actions and that kind of stuff.”

[@iamhungey12345]

There is a joke action figures made of them.

[@alexjames7670]

@@iamhungey12345 I did see them and the Jek Porkins figures (both the parody and the legit Porkins at that lol)

[@countmarkula1993]

@@yalbad5160 It wasn't written with just children in mind, it was written with young people in mind. A coming of age story, simply reducing it to a children's film is putting it on par with a Barney movie. And with the EU, the series definitely evolved to more adult territory. Lucas didn't want to cut his teeth on being a "children's film" maker. He has always been into sci-fi, and he had made Sci-fi before that. Star Wars was revised several times before it became more accessible for larger audiences, and less sci-fi. And you missed the point about the action figures. The success of Star War with general audiences and families is what sparked Lucas to claim it was for 12 year olds and make hella money on figures. Lucas and Fox both thought the movie was gonna be a flop and too "out there" for most people. That's why it didn't take much convincing for Lucas to secure merchandising rights. Also, there is no exaggeration about the difference between He-Man and Star Wars. I didn't say Star Wars was Citizen Kane, only that it is more mature than He-man. I think many people can see that for themselves. Have you watched 1977 Star Wars? The first 30-40 mins of that movie would be pretty intense for coddled children of present day. You really seem to have a vendetta against Gen Xers too. I'm a millennial and I'm tired of millennials believing they are entitled to everything. Ironic that you should preach about entitlement, when you put on airs of entitlement yourself. I know your type, and there will be no changing your mind whatsoever. Continue with your MSM narrative of "Star Wars is a kids film". The fans who know Star Wars, know the truth.

[@stephens4175]

As a Who fan of 40 years and saw all the original Star Wars films multiple times each during their original runs in the theatres, I absolutely applaud these very important points you make and that you stood up for our classic fandoms, they are under assault as we speak and I am so glad that the fans are revolting against these tyrants of Hollywood and BBC.

[@stephens4175]

@@archmage7813 I walked away when missy was revealed, done after that, love 9,10, and 11 though, but the originals over all, but thats just my opinion

[@stephens4175]

@@archmage7813 sorry, I can't, I'm an originalist, I do respect your opinion though

[@hastekulvaati9681]

I think people tend to forget that the big three franchises were bloody awful long before their current incarnations. There is a reason we aren't seeing the further adventures of Jar Jar Binks or a Dr Soran Spin off. As for old Who I loved it but it had some fucking Shockers, especially towards the end: Paradise Towers, Silver Nemesis, Battlefield. I am about as likely to revisit them as I am to re-watch that Episode of Voyager where Amelia Earhart is found alive and well in the Delta Quadrant. As for the Trek Movies I would any say almost any of Disney's Marvel films compare favourably with any Trek film made after The Undiscovered Country.

[@byungbin1395]

@@stephens4175 A shame, you're missing out. 12 or Peter Capaldi for that matter, is easily one of the best if not the best in the role so far(aside from 4 of course). I'd almost consider him the NuWho definitive Doctor, simply for his outstanding performances. I'm saying that as someone who finds Series 8-10 mostly boring. An episode I'd recommend to you would be "Heaven Sent". While it mainly consists of the Doctor running around, Capaldi brings a stellar performance to the table. A must-watch for sure, it is Missy free btw since you don't like Missy.

[@stephens4175]

@@byungbin1395 another problem I have is they made the daleks look like a joke, like he doesn't take them seriously any more, eccleston's doctor showed terror of them, while capaldi doesn't seem to fear them at all

[@thevfxmancolorizationvfxex4051]

For me personally, I think that most of these modern Star Wars and Marvel Movies as corporate sellouts. Disney took a world that George Lucas created that is beloved by many, patented it, packaged it, and now they are selling movies that only exist to make money

[@Densaku]

Remember when Disney didn't tried to monopolize pop culture? Perpridge Farm neither. -_-

[@jedipoodoo]

Exactly.

[@rictusmetallicus]

How great Lucas was, for he never wanted to make money with his movies! All hail the maker of the special edition for the making of the special edition for he killed the OT with it

[@thevfxmancolorizationvfxex4051]

Rictus Metallicus when he made the special editions, Lucas only set out to Revamp Star Wars to what he always wanted it to look like now the technology was there

[@CoryTheRaven]

Unlike Lucas and his quaint little art house cinema version of Star Wars...

[@tonygoldenthesecond3805]

Micheal, thank you for this. 1977's Star Wars is timeless. Am so sick of people trying to down play it.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Tony Mario Golden The Second I don’t 😁🤪🤷‍♂️!!!

[@rossross9281]

Tony Mario Golden The Second me too. I also love ROTJ but it seems to get a lot of unfair hate.

[@theweathercat2002]

I HATE STAR WARS

[@BobbyLCollins]

I distinctly remember C3P0 yanking that sign off the wall in one of the original trailers for The Empire Strikes Back. The Force Awakens was on TV yesterday, and I actually watched a little of it. They got to the scene where they went inside the alien bar, and without thinking I started singing the Cantina Song from A New Hope. The beats all felt like they matched up with the original, and part of me believes they literally took episode IV storyboards and redrew the pictures with new ships, weapons, and aliens, and called it a new movie. It really IS a rehash. I haven't seen VIII or IX, and frankly, I don't want to. A lifelong Star Wars fan doesn't even want to watch modern Star Wars films. At first, I just chalked it up to getting old and grumpy. But then I found out virtually every Gen-Xer feels the same way.

[@MrM-u3h]

And there IS still good star wars content being made, like Clone Wars and Mandalorian so it's not due to aged based cynicism.

[@xenofett7008]

Yes! General consensus from Star Wars fans that have been around since the hay days of the OT is that the Disney trilogy sucks. The majority of those defending the Disney trilogy are the casual Star Wars viewership and those with a political activists axe to grind.

[@SWalker71]

BobbyLCollins.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

@@xenofett7008 And also a lot of the defenders of the new crap are paid shills.

[@jomama900]

Here, here! I am more Trek than Wars, but...(and I dislike the Kelvin-crap) No question are a new hope and Empire are the best movies. I've seen episodes 1-3 and I paid too see the force awakens and that's the last time I will waste my time on that drivel. While wasting my time watching the force snoozes, I could literally pause the movie and tell you what the next scene was gonna be! That's how predictable that was for me. Have not seen nor do I wish to see Solo: A Star Wars Story (2018), Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, Star Wars: Episode VIII -The Last Jedi or Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker.

[@ZXBecky]

Those classics tried to be moral and tried to have something for everyone, appeal to the widest possible audience. Today it’s the polar opposite.

[@haydentcem]

It’s really not

[@andyf554]

Most of these people who argue they love Star Wars don’t understand Star Wars at all. I am so glad I grew up in a world where only the original trilogy existed.

[@salud7432]

So did i, but there is no hate on any Sequells. I enyojed the new Star Trek aswell as the new Star Wars (exept Phantom Menace and last Jedi). All this Internet complaining is Bullshit. You watch, you like or you dont like. Thats all.

[@diggingattycho7908]

Ditto, the arguments over was Vader "really" Luke's father. Seem so innocent.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Andy F Oh no, I have to be at a certain age to be a Star Wars fan all of the sudden 😲😒.

[@sjdrifter72]

Me too. As far as movies go, only the unaltered Original Trilogy matters. No Prequels, and definitely no Disney trash.

[@Avarn388]

Andy F And I’m glad I grew up in an era where the prequels and OT existed. The ST can suck lemons.

[@Demondragonkinggav]

That line about being for kids always annoyed me. I think if something is for kids then the bar should be set to a higher standard then a lot of the crap adult movies that come out.

[@RobertWilkinsonJKekMaloy]

Demondragonkinggav even ‘adult’ movies have crap writing

[@keiichimorisato98]

Praises star wars for being more mature and adult Says it is meant for children whenever there is criticism.

[@RobertWilkinsonJKekMaloy]

What I don’t get is when people say ‘why you wanna do comics why you wanna write superhero movies, they for kids!’ is that there aren’t any nine year olds publishing Spiderman

[@toweypat]

Yes!

[@erentheca]

It's a really dishonest cop-out, ignoring the fact that films like The Lion King, Mulan, and Beauty and the Beast were all ostensibly made for kids, but were incredibly well written, produced, and contained original music which lays Broadway musicals to waste.

[@saljustsal]

This is what we call a “mic drop” except when Michael drops the mic, all the modern-bandwagoning-I watched big bang theory so I know everything-hip to be nerd-fans scatter like cockroaches when a light is flipped on.

[@ranwolf76]

Sheldon: In what universe is Wonder Woman a blonde? me: Titans Tomorrow and the original Wonder Woman tv movie starring Cathy-Lee Crosby

[@saljustsal]

ranwolf76 thats what happens when you write scripts based on Wikipedia articles. Lmao

[@willie_the_monkey_king]

My gut tells me after posting he told all his detractors to "kiss his Converse." lol

[@49ers1975]

yep

[@badlaamaurukehu]

@@saljustsal Yup. Wikipedia has created a generation 2d know-it-all's and poisoned the well for those who know better.

[@kingerikthegreatest.ofall.7860]

Star Trek continues ( a fan made series), is better than discovery.

[@MegaVolcano]

King Erik The Great, The 1st Star Trek Continues is fucking phenomenal!!!

[@kingerikthegreatest.ofall.7860]

It’s on KZbin

[@thequ4u73]

I'm still just amazed with how seamlessly Star Trek Continues matched the production quality and feel of TOS.. very professional but also careful to stay consistent with that 60s look, that's the one thing that New Voyages was lacking back in the day.

[@wildsmiley]

**puts on fire retardant clothing** I really like Discovery.

[@hastekulvaati9681]

Look Star Trek continues is cute as all hell and James Cawley is the best Kirk since Shatner by a county mile. And I don't just mean the best Kirk in a fan film. I think Cawley plays it wonderfully and could seamlessly fit into a professional production. I have nothing but respect for the love and dedication that has gone into making it. The design of it is a perfect facsimile of the TOS. But, and it's a big but. It is an amateur dramatic production and it does show. When James Cawley stepped down from the Captain's chair I think it became unwatchable. If the TOS* hadn't existed I don't think it would stand alone. * Calling it "the" TOS is a tautology, who needs school when you have Dr Who!

[@petrus4]

There is something else that needs to be explained here. Over the last 20 years, an attitude has developed that, if you are critical of anything, you are supposedly just being negative. So with literally any recent film that comes out, if people don't uncritically think it is brilliant, then they are considered haters. Making any kind of distinctions about anything, or viewing thing A to in any way be either different or better or worse than thing B, is becoming taboo.

[@prolamer7]

Its on purpose, and driven by studios itselves. They naturaly want only positive reviews and reactions so their movie etc sell in good way. And so in this age of internet they switched to aggresive marketing when they openly attack any critic of their movie. They hope that by doing so they will silence critical responses and everyone will be just telling good things. And it kinda worked for them, BUT result is people dont even bother to be critical anymore they JUST IGNORE MOVIES, SHOWS and thats the worst, but owners of franchises are too dumb to understand it.

[@badlaamaurukehu]

@@prolamer7 Well, when your "talent" isn't even qualified to be kindergarten teachers but insist that everyone else look up to them as if they were scholarly academics... These hacks like JJ, Kurtzman et al are basically nothing more than overpaid assembly line workers assembling components they couldn't invent themselves and putting identical product after product for clueless twits who think that their consumable media tastes different just because it has a different title.

[@prolamer7]

@@badlaamaurukehu Tragedy is they are paid tenths of milions dolars for it... I dont want world to be fair its not possible even in ie Star Trek utopy, but this is just too much... soo much people with talent and better skills, yet those "writers" keep ruining one thing after another and always get another IP to ruin next year... Its just not free competition.

[@JONNYSORENSEN_AU]

Im guessing those kinds of clueless people have never watched or read actual film criticism like siskel and ebert etc. Its a bizarre lazy attitude imo (them, not you).

[@caseyhall2320]

Yeah, I grew up around a decent amount of that mentality, being currently 22. It's such a dumb & confusing thing for people to do.

[@kingerikthegreatest.ofall.7860]

There's no story arc in the new sequels. Even the prequels had story arcs.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

King Erik The Great, The 1st Not exactly 😁🤪🤷‍♂️!!!

[@Flog1077]

Yeah there was an arc it was I'm good at everything for reasons now shut up and enjoy this movie.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

paul gib Basically there were arcs, just not ones you’d classify as “good”. And accusing me to be a “shut up and enjoy the movie” type of person? Now that’s what I call maturity 😅🤷‍♂️😩.

[@thecollector4332]

Kayle Mathew Comendador You absolutely failed to understand Paul gib’s comment.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

The collector I’ve been having a hard time understanding Star Wars fans in general lately 🤷‍♂️.

[@batangbatugan]

Perhaps its also a "generation" thing in the context that the people who are now at the helm of these franchises do not understand (or "get" for the lack of a better word) the properties they now have in their hands. Now, its either they are approaching it from a business point of view to maximize their profits, or use them to send a political message, or find a way to try something new.

[@bluehero-96]

It's the first two. A shame that we wouldn't have a problem with it if they weren't so bad at it.

[@timf7413]

Or that these properties have become so big and so embedded in popular culture that they mean different things to different people and there are multiple ways to "get" them. For something like Star Wars, the amount of people who consider themselves a fan, in the sense that they will enjoy watching the movies from time to time, is substantially larger than the segment of fans who will delve into the lore of the expanded universe, read all the tie in books, see all the movies multiple times during their theatrical runs etc. That's nothing against that type of fan (I'm one myself), but at the end of the day, we're in a minority for the potential audience for many of these properties and a lot of new material is going to be pitched at more casual fans (or even an attempt to create new fans). That may not always be (and in many cases hasn't been) successful;, but there are also many cases of venerable franchises petering out because the dedicated fanbase could no longer sustain them. Star Trek is an excellent example IMHO. The franchise effectively died in 2005 before being resurectted with the reboot films, which although polarizing to established fans and not wildly successful by modern blockbuster standards, still did better inflation adjusted business than any film in the franchise since TMP in 1979 and now has a growing presence as an (even more polarizing),flagship property for CBS' streaming service. It's hard to judge the commercial success of a streaming product, but since they keep expanding the scope of what they're doing with the franchise, I'd assume they're satisfied with the results. Not everything is made to please the most hardcore fans, and not everything has to be.

[@bluehero-96]

@@timf7413 Ahhaha! That's where you're wrong, bucko! Dedicated fanbases are not why franchises peter out. Some are nicknamed whales for a reason. They flounder when the corporate heads attempt to chase the casual market. The product loses it's consistency, and it no longer attracts normies or nerds. Once a franchise flounders the corporate heads either keep doing what is hurting the property, or abandon it altogether.

[@timf7413]

Just speaking about of the franchises mentioned in this video, there are at least three (Dr. Who, Superman, Star Trek) that saw points in their history where (for one reason or another) they dipped below the minimum standard of commercial viability and went dark for a prolonged period before being rebooted. (that actually happened twice to Star Trek). In general, studios don't see the need to reboot or retool properties that are actively posting big returns, they just keep making sequels. Reboots happen when something has completely stalled out and a relaunch needs to be attempted in order to monetize the property again.

[@bluehero-96]

@@timf7413 Except the fans were still there to support their franchises. When the casual viewers leave, the corporate heads falsely perceive whole thing as dying. Profits over product.

[@BeegtymeRawkstah]

RetroBlasting: "You think a mediocre product could inspire 43 years of corporate rehashing?" ... ... ... Electronic Arts: *looks nervously at entire game catalog*

[@WeHaveExplosive]

One of the most irritating reactions to criticism I get is "it's just entertainment". The quality of a work of fiction may be irrelevant for someone to enjoy it, but there is objectively a value to well crafted media (screenplays, direction, photography) that many choose to disregard - or are unaware of, sadly.

[@KneelB4Bacon]

I agree. Would people make the same argument about food? "It's not SUPPOSED to taste good. Just eat it!"

[@michaelmartin9022]

"Little kids in the 90's weren't buying the EU novels" Well, some of them were. Well, I probably started at 10-11, which isn't that little...

[@Geekezf]

If not the books, the video games. Wich are a gold mine aswell.

[@ForceMaximus84]

I remember wanting to and immediately snapped up the graphic novel of Shadows of the Empire when it came out. I’m trying to get some of the older EU stories now.

[@evertonporter7887]

I've only ever read one of the EU novels...and that was back in 1980 with Splinter If The Mind's Eye, which I borrowed from a fellow student at college. I'm just not emotionally invested in those books to be honest, but can understand the reaction of fans to the unnecessary hatchet job Disney did on the EU.

[@iwatals400]

The main problem with people ruining the classics is that most of them are trying way too hard to try and be like Marvel. Over abundance of CGI, quippy dialogue, a random funny moment to get people to laugh, etc. So here’s my word of advice to the people who want to make something for Star Trek, Star Wars, DC, or Doctor Who: Stop trying to copy Marvel if all you’re going to do is make it worse!

[@ForbinsColossus]

Start Trek and Doctor Who, as properties, are in somewhat different positions than say Star Wars or other properties. Both Doctor Who and Star Trek managed to develop sequel series that in many ways eclipsed the success of the originals. There was endless whining about The Next Generation when nit hit the airwaves in 1987. The internet was not widely available and social media didn’t exist, but the complaints were there. Never the less, The Next Generation found a level of success that eluded the original series. On top of that, there is simply a lot more Star Trek to hang your fan hat on. Plenty of long time fans were not alive let alone fans of the original series. Some people love Voyager or thing Enterprise was great. I thought both were mediocre and the less said about the Abrams movies the better. Because there is so much more variety in Star Trek, this die hard obsession with trying to decided what is and isn’t good Star Trek seems silly.

[@corvus1970]

THANK YOU. Also, great username!

[@Knightfall182]

The few defenders of Star Trek Discovery have been using this 'argument' the most I've noticed... 😬😬 🤢

[@avenuePad]

I like Star Trek Discovery, but I've never used this argument. And yeah, it's not perfect, but neither was TNG when it first aired. I distinctly remember the fanbase losing their shit over TNG for not being true "Star Trek". But, in time, TNG came into its own and fans embraced it. And then TNG fans hated DS9 for YEARS AND YEARS saying that it was a betrayal to Gene's vision and that it was the biring Star Trek that went nowhere. DS9 was always amazing, but it's nice to see the haters finally embracing it. I'm not saying Discovery is on the same level as DS9, but I'm not saying that it couldn't be. Season 2 was a significant improvement and hopefully season 3 will be even better. I get the impression that the showrunners and writers are finally getting their sea legs. Remember, TNG took a couple of seasons to get their shit together.

[@titsbitchmcgee7502]

​@@avenuePad The problem with this argument is that there's no reason to assume Discovery is somehow going to follow a similar upward trend as TNG, and at the same season no less. TNG gave us storylines like Q and the Borg by it's second season, what does Discovery have? If you think Discovery is going to get better that's cool, but there's no real reason for anyone else to believe it.

[@avenuePad]

@@titsbitchmcgee7502 Discovery is already better than TNG's first or second season. The show is already doing better out the gate. Now, that's very subjective, but so is any opinion of arts and entertainment. The next season, to me, looks very interesting. We'll see.

[@blacrow7]

@@avenuePad I did not mean that Discovery should be hulling garbage, I meant that Discovery should be hulled away AS GARBAGE!

[@blacrow7]

@@avenuePad (Discovery is already better than TNG's first or second season. The show is already doing better out the gate. Now, that's very subjective, but so is any opinion of arts and entertainment. The next season, to me, looks very interesting. We'll see. ) That comment is such a joke.

[@J-T-A]

This is the fan debate equivalent of walking away from the explosion while not looking at it... Please Hammer, don't hurt em.

[@Klonoahedgehog]

The way I see it most of this boils down too: fans vs posers.

[@AvengerII]

@@Apogee02UK And a posey thing to do is to come into forums and be contrarian for the sake of it because you think it makes you look more enlightened than everyone else! So, why are you watching the videos of people you say don't like and obsessing about them, hmm?

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

HadouKeyblade Honestly, I see it more as: *DIE HARDS VS Newbies*

[@corvus1970]

@@Apogee02UK Well said. This is just "true fan" nonsense that I've been seeing online for around 25 years. I've seen it in every one the fandoms for older properties that I've been a fan of. Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Transformers, Marvel and DC comics, you name it. You always have a contingent of older fans who view themselves as gate-keepers can be outright hostile to "newbies", and have a tendency to hate on newer materials. These contingents can be of various sizes, but tend to be a loud minority. Newbies will sometimes ask questions, and all-too-often get snark in return. Newbies will express enjoyment of a recent version of a beloved property, only to have their enjoyment belittled. And sure, there can be pig-headed "newbies" too, who hate on older stuff, and cling hard to the new. However, in my long internet life, I've seen way more of the former than the latter. I can remember back in my usenet days when there existed a loud gaggle of Transformers fans who just automatically hated on BEAST WARS, and then over the years, quite a few of them came around to enjoying it, with a minority deciding to continue to hate anything that wasn't G1. Then there's this attitude that new properties somehow "destroy" the originals, which has always baffled me. Its not like "NuWHO" retroactively destroyed the original episodes of Doctor WHO that ran from 1963 to 1989 (No, the Beeb managed to do that just fine by itself pre-Pertwee), but to hear some fans talk, you'd think it had done exactly that. They don't take into account that the increase in the number of fans, and the increased revenue that came along with, has also been of benefit to fans of the originals. Its made some new fans of classic WHO, and made possible great new releases of classic seasons on Blu-Ray for us lifers to enjoy. Those who hated on the "Bayverse" Transformers films don't pause to realize that the HUGE influx of cash has enabled Hasbro (and Takara, to an extent) to create more toys of beloved classic versions of characters. The Prime-Wars trilogy of toys was essentially bankrolled by the Bayverse, and would have been nearly impossible without it, and we've seen similar results in the Marvel Legends lines of figures, thanks to the MCU. Hell, another example of this came with Peter Jackson's LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy, which raised the ire of many Tolkien purists, despite the fact that they dramatically raised awareness and increased sales of the original novels that spawned the whole thing. And me, the looooooong time fan of a lot of this stuff, I don't always like the newer things. I wasn't a huge fan of the new STAR WARS trilogy, but I don't exactly loathe it, or see the need to hate on it. I didn't even bother watching TRANSFORMERS THE LAST KNIGHT, but some fans wrung some enjoyment out of it, and I'm glad they did. STAR TREK DISCOVERY? I'm still not sure if its good Trek, but I do think its good sci-fi. And while I love the MCU, don't get me started on MAN OF STEEL or BATMAN V SUPERMAN. But man, I just don't feel the need to ignore the flaws of classic WHO, classic TRANSFORMERS, or classic TREK just to pump up original materials. These things were not always great, and sometimes they were downright bad. Just as newer versions don't erase the great aspects of the originals, they don't erase the flaws either. Doctor WHO missteps like THE HORNS OF NIMON or TIME AND THE RANI still exist. Transformers pap like CITY OF STEEL and B.O.T are still out there. And Trek embarrassments like TURNABOUT INTRUDER or DATALORE still lurk out there to make us cringe, and possibly laugh at the absurdity. I look out at all this toxicity in fandoms, and at this point classic STAR WARS vs new STAR WARS, or classic TREK vs new TREK holds as much merit as STAR WARS vs STAR TREK or MARVEL vs DC. I don't have to hate on one to enjoy the other, but it seems as if some very loud, very obnoxious, and very persistent people aren't happy unless they have something to rail against. I'm tired of people who feel they simply must tear something down in order to prop something else up. I'm tired of the litmus tests, the gatekeeping, and the merit-badges. Basically I'm tired of the strife in general, and really hate the way online communication methods have harmed healthy discourse and friendly debate. I just want to enjoy the things I'm a fan of, whether it be old or new, and share that enjoyment without someone coming along and pissing all over it. Is that wrong? I don't think it is. John Connor: "We aren't going to make it are we? People, I mean." Terminator: "Its in your nature to destroy yourselves."

[@sjdrifter72]

Moronnials (millennials) are the posers. There, I said it.

[@Klonoahedgehog]

@@sjdrifter72 Your kinda right, they are inherently angrier than previous generations or even GenZ.

[@3faltigeralexandro]

It isn't about trashing the classics. Its about exposing the hypocrisy of the people exposing the new stuff. Many critics these days focus on insignificant minutiae, to "prove" that the new stuff is bad. Pointing out that the classics had the same problems and still resonated with a lot of people is an important step in making the fandom more self-aware. If you say, that criticising the new stuff is OK, but the classics are beyond reproach, then it is YOU, Michael, who is throwing logic out of the window.

[@3faltigeralexandro]

@@timothyward8695 Pointing out that the old stuff had flaws too isn't an attack. Its being honest.

[@brianomdahl8377]

“Many critics these days focus on INSIGNIFICANT MINUTIAE to prove that the new stuff is bad.” Whoa. The story problems found throughout the Sequel Trilogy were jarring for me, and for those who became “critics” of JJ and Rian’s movies. I would say HONESTLY that I never went into a Star Wars movie hoping it would be bad. Hoping for disappointment. [Remember, I LOVE this stuff. I am a FAN of Star Wars!!!!!]. But when I view the movies in the Sequel Trilogy, I am literally knocked out of my enjoyment of Star Wars. And it is NOT because the main character is Rey and is female. [I actually enjoy Daisy Ridley. And having a “female lead” in Rogue One was not an issue for me. I actually really really enjoy Rogue One.] It is NOT because “Disney” owns the property now, not George. It is NOT because I am some sort of imagined racist / homophobe / conservative space Nazi. I don’t enjoy the Sequel Trilogy because I find it SEVERELY lacking in story elements and in its own progression. Remember, JJ and Rian actively undermined each other’s “take” on Star Wars and each sought to undo the efforts of the other in the successive films made. By its own admission, the Sequel Trilogy HATES ITSELF. And people are surprised, shocked and dismayed that “old fans” like me DON’T LIKE IT!?!? The Sequel Trilogy’s biggest problem is that there was no original story arc that writers and directors all were sold on and agreed to carry forth - chapter by chapter. This is my humble opinion. And you are welcome to disagree. But please try to understand that this “old school” fan did NOT come to this batch of Star Wars films wanting to hate them. That just happened. And it happened because NO DELIBERATE CARE WAS TAKEN WHEN CRAFTING THE STORY. [What an OPPORTUNITY that Disney had... and ANY longtime fan could have handled this IP with much, much, MUCH more care than has been shown by Disney’s treatment of the Skywalker Saga..]

[@3faltigeralexandro]

@@brianomdahl8377 Ok, boomer. I'm OK with TFA, thought TLJ was great and disliked RoS. There might not have been a story arc throughout the sequels... but neither was in the OT or the prequels (think about it: the movies mainly stand by themselves, not because they present an interwoven story). George Lucas basically wrote the story by the seat of his pants and while there are many things that don't (logically) fit together, I think we can agree that it doesn't matter because those movies just feel right and hit all the right feels. If this doesn't work for you...OK. But don't pretend one of those movies has "bad" storytelling and the other one "good" storytelling, when there are no objective style differences between them. Tastes vary, thats all. Also, I didn't call you a nazi, homophobe or whatever, so take down that strawman, will you? But that doesn't change the fact, that there ARE in fact actual nazis trashing the new movies - those people (like MauLer, Clownfish, Doomcock or Nerdrotic) aren't imaginary and they don't really care about the media they talk about (if it suited there agenda - and if they could get cheap approval from it - they would just as easily trash the classics). Calling those people out on their BS doesn't require you to like the movies/shows they trash. It just requires you to pay attention to the way they present their arguments and recognize the cheap rhetoric and ad-hominem arguments contained in them (as well as a heavy helping of bigotry and hate). There are no "sides" in this discussion, only personal tastes.

[@Benjamin0119]

This is exactly my thing. If people held the same rigorous standards and nitpicked the originals to hell they would fall apart as movies. But they are shielded by years of nostalgia and deification.

[@Chibi1986]

This hits oddly close to home now that Fallout has a TV show and retconned the original two games and New Vegas.

[@dragonhold4]

Both the Originals and the Sequels are given the neutral moniker of Star Wars; from the most naive perspective, defending Star Wars becomes defending the Sequels. In reality, defending Star Wars would be not having unusually low expectations of it.

[@Shintigercurl]

i saw a guy say that "velma" is great because it's so much better than the old scooby doo cartoons. what's funny is that this person admitted to having never watched a single episode of any of the scooby doo shows.

[@monsterzero8805]

Geeks and nerds built the fanbase and cooperate bullies destroyed it

[@lacintag5482]

Even with the retcon connections to Vader, that scene still isn't contrived. It's not a coincidence that all of these elements came together. Obi-Wan lived near Luke's home *because* he was his apprentice's son. And the robots and Leia were entrusted to Bail Organa because he was close to Padme. And it was this relationship between Obi-Wan and Padme that is the reason Leia's hologram and the robot are there as well. No contrivances nor coincidences.

[@toweypat]

Yes!

[@killingfields07]

SJW: "It wasn't made for you!" Normie: "The original wasn't made FOR YOU!" SJW "...😫" No comeback.

[@timf7413]

FWIW, both can (and I would argue in many cases are) true. When people say that, they know the older stuff wasn't made for them, and that's the entire point of the argument, they want something that is. That is literally the entire point of their argument. That said, the latter statement is the reason many fans (and potential fans) would prefer to see newer installments make such changes to begin with is to provide a "bigger tent" so to speak to accommodate fans who felt alienated by aspects of the older installments, and if some long time fans feel left out by that, they're getting a taste of what it feels like to wear that particular shoe themselves and find that it's not all that fun. If anything, you would think that would make them more sympathetic when others say the same about their beloved originals.

[@RansomeStoddard]

Not sure what any of this has to do with social justice warriors. The two are unrelated.

[@killingfields07]

@@RansomeStoddard SJWs are really petty when it comes to newer films that are obviously pandering to the "woke crowd". They think because 2016 Ghostbusters is all woman, "they represent me, I'm a woman". And when the movie bombed at the box-office, SJWs believed it's an "attack" on all woman. "Man-babies, you didn't see the movie, that means you're sexist!" Which is really autistic. One stupid movie doesn't represent an entire gender.

[@RansomeStoddard]

The Patriarch yeah, you need to let that anger go. That movie was several years ago. Why is it the only ones still talking about it are the ones bitching about SWJ’s? They moved on. Maybe you should as well.

[@killingfields07]

@@RansomeStoddard I'm not angry over it. That movie was very easy to ignore. I didn't watch it in theaters like the rest of world. You don't know me at all because you have your head so far shoved up your ass, you're blind and deaf.

[@monsterzero8805]

These movies were in fact made for us that's why Disney took a gamble to ensure a profitable outcome! Unfortunately they broke Star wars and kicked the fans to the curb

[@thehatter9400]

I always thought that "new fans" of each of these classics are just ether parasites or people trying to use these films as a soap box.

[@josefino72]

Michael, thank you so much for all the work that you do and your insight. I love Star Wars. I will always love Star Wars. There are things that I don’t like, but, unless you were there, people will never understand the impact and popularity of A New Hope. It was magical not only for 5 year old me, but for my parents as well. I’ll never forget that Christmas morning in Inglewood, California, when I came out to the living room and saw all the wonderful Star Wars toys “Santa” brought us. It was magical for me and it was magical for my family. Star Wars was also the first time I’d ever went back to the theatre to see a movie I had already seen. The magic of Star Wars will always be a part of my life.

[@gregjenkins9270]

I have friends who think they have to like everything that has a Star Wars label on it or they aren’t a true fan...

[@MrGrimjaw]

Not true the sequels was horrible bil

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

"Consume product. Then get excited for next product."

[@TheNthMouse]

Just tell them: "Stir Whip, Stir Whip, Whip Whip Stir!" Then ask them why they hate the Living Symbol of Hope.

[@AL-ws5yi]

Finally, a voice of reason. Thank you for saying what we have been thinking so eloquently.

[@MisterSiza78]

China O' Brien, i see Mike is a man of culture as well.

[@blackRXrider]

You mean Cynthia Rothrock?

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Asmin Siza What dat again???

[@andreamiller3578]

I admit to squealing a bit with that mention. Heh

[@WickedScott]

The sequel trilogy suffered from too many people being charge, while the prequels suffered from only one being in charge. One could argue balance is the way. Well we saw how that worked out with Annakin! Frak! We're doomed.

[@frankbruder3097]

Anakin's droid and Padme's droid ended up with their daughter. Contrived coincidence? - No, not a coincidence at all. Vader's old master was the one trying to hide the Skywalker siblings from Vader. He left Leia with people he knew. That's why she knew of Kenobi as someone who could help and she tried to get the Death Star plans to him through R2D2. Kenobi himself has stayed in the region to which he had brought Luke. When we accept all the later additions to canon that relate to that scene, then still the only contrived coincidence is that the Jawas who found both of the droids after they could have landed anywhere on the planet and after they've gone separate ways in the desert happened to sell them to Luke's uncle. Luke got incidentally involved as R2D2 was looking for Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[@Roper122]

Glad someone else spotted this... it was driving me crazy I don't even count the Jawas as a contrivance.

[@CreepyUncleIdjit]

Regarding the point made at 10:20...I don't think either of us were adults when the Thrawn Trilogy came out. I know I certainly wasn't. However, what you said is true, from a certain point of view: I had to have an adult buy me those books. This is not to say that I felt Star Wars was "just for kids," either, I just think that the idea of "only adults" being interested in EU stuff is a weak point.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

MisterIdjit Yeah, I’m not really getting these “these new fans aren’t REAL FANS” type of comments popping up around here. You can be a fan no matter what age!

[@jestucker2268]

Thank you for saying what we all are thinking. This is why I love your channel, you speak the truth and make people think. Keep up the great work!

[@TurtleTrackin]

Just thinking- doesn't Obi Wan call Vader "Darth" in ANH, as if that was a familiar first name?

[@johnwotek3816]

About the whole "everything in this place is conveniently linked to the main plot", we can also point out there is actually some pretty solid reason to how everyting was one Tatooine at that point, unlike for the Jakku part. Luke was brought there by Obi-wan, Leïa, C3PO and R2D2 were given to Bail Organa, whom was a major Jedi supporter and one of the first senator opposed to the Empire, which led him to have Leïa be part of the rebellion with the droid and put them in that situation... and those droid were activelly looking for Obi-wan. There is a certain retroactive payoff in that scene. So far, the only part somewhat convenient is, after the crash, C3PO and R2D2 ended up at the Lars farm... but even there, you have the jawa to smooth the edges. For the whole Jakku thing well: -There is no link between Lor San Tekka and Rey. That's a massive coincidence Rey was abandonned on the same planet some old dude with the useless mac guffin to an another dude. -That's very convenient BB8, a resistance droid on a mission and a very hot piece of tech for any scavenger at miles around, trust the first human nice to him... I mean, R2 tried to escape at first, and only complied after Obi-wan found him with Luke and 3PO, because it was his objective. -Again, very convenient Poe left his Jacket behind on the crash site, for Finn to find it and be immediatly identified by BB8... and that's even more stupid considering Poe actually survived the crash. -And, of course, the biggest coincidence is the presence of the millenium falcon, without Han Solo to captain it, but said Han Solo being right above it in space, to claim back his ship.

[@Roper122]

There are no coincidences in the original, it all makes perfect sense R2 and 3PO were heading for Obi Wan, who was located very near to Luke

[@flatebo1]

At the beginning of A New Hope, R2D2 and C-3PO are owned by Capt. Wedge Antilles. They don't belong to Leia. She just commandeers them to get her message out. So the droids being on Leia's Diplomatic Envoy vessel seems a bit odd. Especially as Antilles is apparently not captured with the ship, as he takes part in the destruction of the Death Star, the Battle of Hoth and the battle of Endor. So presumably he isn't on the ship when it is captured.

[@Roper122]

@@flatebo1 Well Wedge is involved with the rebellion.

[@flatebo1]

@@Roper122 True. But he doesn't seem to be on the ship when it's captured.

[@Roper122]

@@flatebo1 Yeah, but if you were going to let someone look after your droids... Princess Leia seems a good choice. Plus it was Bail Organa who really took ownership of them and no doubt he had a say in where they went

[@MisaelCastilloBrenes]

Someone may not agree with all your points but no one can deny you put a lot of thought and logic to elaborate your argument. Very well done!

[@opts9]

Vader's Robots were there because Vader's Daughter sent them there, and Vader's Master was there because he was watching over Vader's Son.

[@Binny2014]

Thank you for pointing out the most ridiculous coincidences in The Force Awakens! Why doesn't this bother more people?? I gave TFA a pass at the time as I thought there would be a clever explanation revealed in Episodes 8 and 9...

[@UnprofessionalFlip]

The end of this video came too soon. I enjoy hearing your opinions.

[@lookingforwookiecopilot]

I never thought Luke was trying to commit suicide when he jumped after his asskicking by Vader. It always looked to me like he noticed the trash shoots and figured he would just get sucked in if he fell.

[@afterwit3620]

Fantastic. Thank you for your continued diligence and emphasis on careful arguments.

[@drewlovelyhell4892]

I don't think the lack of a huge Tron fandom is the result of a 'just okay' film. It's a fantastic film that just didn't get enough traction with a general audience. Blockbuster doesn't equal quality, as evidenced by Bayformers, Fast/Furious, etc.

[@benjaminjude12]

That intro though I personally am 14 and I’ve been watching this channel for three four years honestly it’s the thing that got me into the 80’s-90’s and made me originally collect vintage toys like the real ghostbusters Kenner line the Kenner Star Wars line or like the Ghostbusters sharper toy line I believe that’s the company that produce those I don’t feel like looking it up or checking a figure. Idk retro blasting has been a big part of who I am now I don’t collect the figure lines of those decades much anymore I still pick up Kenner Star Wars figures when I can but now I’m more into vintage video games such as the Super Nintendo and the Atari 2600. With collecting mainly that now and loving the music and movies of these decades for so than my own a lot of the time. Honestly that all started with finding the yellow lightsaber video a couple years ago I just wanted to thank RetroBlasting for having such a big impact on who I am now.

[@Luthiart]

I have a friend who does this... We're the same age, both life-long Star Wars fans, we were both 9 years old when the first movie came out, yet whenever I criticize the the MANY awful aspects of the ST, he defends it by pointing out a flaw in one of the OT movies. I have to wonder; if the original trilogy was so terrible, then why was he ever a Star Wars fan to begin with?? Also, pointing out the flaws in one movie doesn't automatically make a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVIE "better" by default.

[@jeenkzk5919]

How I miss the days when seeing any Star Wars film was a rarity. VCRs were too expensive to watch on cassette. I remember around 87,88 Star Wars was playing on a 13 inch TV to show off the VCR. My Dad, me and my little brother stood and watched the final battle in captivation! Why? Because it was special to see it. Just like the Wizard of Oz coming on once a year from the 1950s well into the 2000s. Mick Foley once mentioned he sort of regrets these films coming out on cassette as it made them easier to access and you can watch anytime. It’s no longer a special event. Now everything is saturated with Star Wars. I think the prequels and sequels hurt Star Wars because they are okay or maybe good at best. Star Wars (no it’s not A New Hope!) wasn’t even at “great”. It is beyond greatness. It was and is a definition of our generation. As well as Empire and Jedi. Because these films are so magnificent we will never experience that again. The new generations after will never experience how we experienced it. Ever. Sorry....way off subject but after finding Empire Despecialized on KZbin, I came to the realization.

[@T-RavisComics]

Well done I couldn’t have said it better myself. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but some people just can’t take it when someone doesn’t agree with them. I’m old enough to be lucky to have been there from the beginning. As a child I saw Star Wars, Battle Star, Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon in the theatre and I loved them all and still do to this day but that’s my choice to love them and if someone else doesn’t then that’s their opinion and let’s move on. I liked the new Star Wars but didn’t love them. The last one could have been 2 different movies in my opinion

[@shadowshandbro]

I personally still adore the prequels. Yes they retconned parts of the OT, but it also expanded on that universe, making it feel much bigger than it originally was.

[@Zardoz4441]

The 1936 sci fi movie "Things to Come" still looks more modern than most "modern" lifestyles 84 years later! We are falling back, folks...

[@xenopulse9131]

Iron Sky comparison made me lose it. LOL Love the video.

[@SirThinkALot42]

Another point on the Luke v Rey training thing: Luke, upon leaving the Dagobah, promptly got his ass kicked by Vader, and lost his hand in the process. Return of the Jedi all but states outright that Luke spent an extensive period(possibly even a couple of years) completing his training before they fought again, this time on more even footing. Rey, on the other hand, was holding her own against Kylo since literally before she had ANY Jedi training, not to mention her being able to mind trick and force pull 5 minuets after she even learned the Force was a real thing.

[@DavidAspmo]

When I've heard Lucas say Star Wars is "aimed at twelve-year-olds", he was specifically referring to the moral and ethical life lessons contained within; he wasn't saying that they should only be enjoyed by children. That's just the age that themes as basic as "what kind of person are you going to be" and "should you leave home and find a greater destiny" are going to be most relevant and resonant. Also, even with the Prequels, the fact that the droids owned by Anakin and Padme would later be owned by their daughter is not a wild coincidence at all. And just a small thing beside the larger point of the video: while Gary Kurtz was certainly critical of the story for RotJ after the fact, it wasn't the reason he and Lucasfilm parted ways - he was gone before that movie was being written (and from what I've read, it wasn't exactly his choice to leave). Howard Kazanjian was at those initial story meetings with Lucas, Marquand and Kasdan.

[@turtleboy1188]

You are smarter than the video maker

[@Batkenpre]

Exactly

[@leekronforst4589]

Can I get an ID of the clip of the guy blowing a hole in his head falling on the steps? Thank you.

[@invisiblehand13]

I stopped collecting Star Wars stuff a long time ago. Most of the items I had, (which were once priceless treasures to my eyes) have either been trashed, traded away, or are gathering dust - forgotten and ignored in a half-crushed cardboard box in my garage. I have three year old son. Even before he was born, I always imagined that Star Wars would be something he and I could share. After experiencing disney's "grand design" for Star Wars, that hope has become as discarded and lifeless as that box of junk in my garage. It wasn't just the OT characters, events and meaning that the Disney assasinated. Somehow they have even sown salt into the field where my love for this franchise once grew. I don't care if the Mandalorian is well-liked by most people who watch it. Disney has become a company that I (now) believe to be almost sociopathic in their political agenda and greed. Anyway... Thank you for making this. I subb'd and turned on notifications. I'll also be sharing this video on my social media accounts. Thank You

[@123mandalore777]

I agree with your assessment of Disney, they absolutely have a scorched earth policy in regards to culture and heritage. Their lengthy attempts to go out of their way to discredit the old EU, games like KOTOR, some of the really good novels like Darth Plaguies and the Thrawn Trilogy really, really hurts. It hurts spiritually every time they try to discredit them as non canon fan fictions, when they were really brilliant additions to the universe that helped elevate the movies even further into greatness. They are literally degrading the quality of all 6 films when they shit on the old EU, and they only do this so they can sell you their new EU replacement which is fucking garbage by a bunch of hack corporate writers at Disney. It's like they are actively trying to make everyone stop liking real Star Wars, and only like their new Disney branded Star Wars.

[@pixelretroo]

Will be sharing this video whenever the age old debate arises. Thank you for an excellent summary and logical explanation to common poor arguments =)

[@ogre1331]

I've been often told that the TOS Trek and original trilogy star wars not as good as the new garbage. I just walk away from them shaking my head saying it must be nice to stare at the sun till you go blind. There is no creativity anymore, just cash grabs for corporations to make more garbage for us to spend money on.

[@NebLleb]

And now even Mobile Suit Gundam is suffering from the "Trash the Classics" phenomena.

[@sugarbooger4434]

Having finished OG Gundam, it’s staggering for how a series that nearly not only laid the ground work for a franchise with nearly 5 decades with of content, but laid the ground work for a genre we know today. All of that was done with high quality story telling and characters that stood the test of time. Yet people like to trash on it for being “dated” or “having bad animation” which was actually hit or miss due to the budget.

[@thenextjedipodcast3020]

You are strong and wise, Retroblasting, and I am very proud of you

[@jasonrobertson9618]

Also that picture with all the 'plot contrivances' linking everyone to vader also makes sense because they were linked to each other to start with: Obi-wan was there to watch over Luke and Leia came here specifically for Obi-wan. By comparison Rey would have had to been somehow linked to the old man at the start of Force Awakens and Han would have to be following Poe, and The Millennium Falcon would have to be also tied to Rey and Poe... or something equally contrived.

[@Necron-ez2cc]

We of The Fandom Menace Are the stalwarts who appreciate the Original Source Material. These hacks that want to tear down Original Source Material are not part of any fandom. They are ideological Cultural Marxists pushing the "End of History" agenda. It reminds me of an exchange I witnessed in a seminar level history class while I was in college back in the early 80's. The professor was being railed at by a student who was very obviously a member of the Marxist Radical Revisionist school of thought. He wanted to know why the professor was using U. B. Phillips as source material for the class. The student's whole argument against Phillips material was, "He's ray-siss! He's a son of a Bitch!" The professor's retort was, "Phillips may have been ray-siss son of a bitch, but he was a SMART son of a bitch.. And I would rather learn from a smart son of a bitch, than an army of well meaning fools." That ended the Marxist's rant.

[@millfilm1]

I feel like this video needs an update

[@SGlitz]

As a guy who is currently at the World's oldest and longest running Doctor Who convention....Next week, the Sheena convention :)

[@rayvenkman2087]

"What's the point of being a grown-up if you can't be childish." - Tom Baker.

[@RobertWilkinsonJKekMaloy]

Know One whats the sense of being an adult if you can’t have ice cream for breakfast?

[@SGlitz]

@Know One sorry, I am not you. You're so kind.

[@MercerCreate]

THANK YOU! THIS VIDEO IS PERFECT. EVERY TIME I TALK TO A FAN OF THE SEQUELS I FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO START FROM SQUARE ONE WHEN THEY START DEFENDING THE NEW "STORIES" BY BASHING THE OLD FILMS.. FILMS THAT HAVE STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. YOU ARTICULATED PERFECTLY EVERYTHING I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT AND I THANK YOU

[@boblowes]

The absence of Gary Kurtz from Star Wars movies after Empire really shows. His ability to turn down George Lucas' worst instincts is sorely missed, especially in the Special Editions and the prequels. Instead, Lucas replaced him with Rick McCallum, who appears to be some sort of professional 'Yes' man.

[@xenofett7008]

Gary Kurtz challenged George to do better and the first two OT films were masterpieces because of this. ROTJ was entertaining but that's where the cracks were starting to appear. Rick McCallum was under George's thumb. I don't agree with all of Gary Kurtz plans for the OT but his heart was in the right place and he was sorely missed after Empire Strikes Back.

[@pferreira1983]

ROTJ is my favourite Star Wars movie and it's pretty terrific. I never held the whole opinion "only Episode 4 and 5 are classics".

[@cmshazam3785]

Have you read anything about Lucas’s 1st wife(ex now), and her contributions. It sounds like she was a huge part of what was Star Wars(before the revisions).

[@xenofett7008]

@@cmshazam3785 Yes! She was a major contributing factor in the editing of Star Wars which is what saved it.

[@123mandalore777]

@@cmshazam3785 Marcia Lucas's contribution to Star Wars is so minimal you could argue the weather in Tunisia on the days of shooting had more artistic impact on the direction of the film (they did have to rebuild some destroyed sets afterall) Marcia's entire contributing was coming into the editing bay after everything was already shot and filmed, watching her husband and his TWO other professional editors working on the rough cut of the film, looking over the shotlist and merely suggested splicing some of the Yavin footage and Death Star footage together to make it more intense. Lucas and the two editors agree'd it would be nice, and found it worked so good that Lucas decided to add some more lines and do some pickups to make it work properly. Marcia's influence is massively overblown and basically only a turbo feminist would take seriously the idea that Marcia is a part of the genius behind Star Wars.

[@BingBong67489]

You also forgot to mention that, even after the future retcons, the "contrivances" in A New Hope STILL aren't anywhere near as contrived as The Force Awakens' contrivances. The characters in A New Hope had a common connection in Obi-Wan, there was a logical reason for them to come together in the same place. Obi-Wan had served with Leia's father in the Clone Wars, thus Leia's father knew Obi-wan had gone to the Lars homestead on Tatooine to watch over Luke, and thus Leia had sent R2-D2 specifically to go the Lars homestead on Tatooine to find Obi-wan. It even makes sense that the Jawas ended up bringing the droids to the Lars homstead, since the droids had intentionally landed near the Lars homestead and there were no other settlements nearby (aside from Obi-wan and the sand people). The only major coincidence was that the R4 unit short circuited before Owen Lars bought it, but that's at least a believably plausible occurance given the fact that most of the Jawa's droids were scrap they'd collected from around the area. Like...the amount of carefully integrated connections the OT establishes so that everything fits together fairly logically...compared to the hodgepodge of unrelated coincidences in the ST...it's just unreal that people can't see the difference.

[@MGSBigBoss77]

Michael is the kind of guy you'd like to buy a drink at the bar and talk for hours on films and TV shows! Much agreed with this video. again you missed out on classic Battlestar Galactica. Wished he also used that as an example in comparison to the sci-fi channel remake version as well. Cos like Star Trek and Star Wars the two versions of BSG have also had those issues, fans of the remake series have tossed the original '78 series under the bus everytime they open their mouths online for the past 17 years now! Hmm and yet the original has an ongoing comic book series from Dynamite Entertainment while not many sci-fi fans collect any Ron Moore BSG comics ironically enough anyways. Aanyways, cool video RetroBlasting.

[@hitandruncommentor]

It pains me how often most of these arguments come down to “I don’t know how things are written or how to write a good story, or how stories actually work”.

[@Roper122]

19:30 Wrong. You are wasting your time trying to defend problems that don't exist. There are no contrivances in this scene. Vader's old master is on the same planet as his son, BECAUSE Luke is his son. Kenobi is literally there on purpose, not by chance. Vader's Daughter is searching for Vader's old Master BECAUSE she is his daughter and has always been told to search for Kenobi. This is not by chance Leia has Vader's old droids ( and yes the 3PO retcon wasn't necessary ) BECAUSE she is his daughter, or rather Padme's The droids met Luke BECAUSE they were heading towards Obi Wan, who was close to Luke, on purpose. It's not that the movies subsequently made these contrivances worse. There are no contrivances in that scene - at all Force Awakens is all contrivance and coincidence. Star Wars is not.

[@hehheh382]

Will we ever get closure for xenogears and ogre battle? They both used series numbering much like star wars without the benefit of a benefactor

[@wikkidperson]

“The Beatles weren’t actually very good or gamechanging songwriters either...” -Oasis fan

[@saljustsal]

Wikkid Person I started my day off with a laugh. Thank you that lmao

[@kevinthomas4239]

You might add the great Noel quote " Even Johnny Marr can't play Johnny Marr."

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Wikkid Person What’s a “Oasis”?

[@Flog1077]

That's why Activision didn't dedicate a whole video game franchise to them

[@michaelmartin9022]

@@kaylemathewcomendador6964 A couple of manc brothers who got in fights all the time. I think they did some music somewhere in there too.

[@odiwalker3973]

10:20 I mean even in the 70's when the original Star Wars released EVERYBODY went apeshit, not just kids.

[@sinistavoicez]

16:18 OH MY GOD!!! Thank you for this WHOLE segment. Just wow! Seriously I can't thank you enough

[@slycooze150]

Great video! I agree with everything you’ve said. But WHY do they use these arguments? WHY do they claim to love the new stuff that clearly has major problems? Do they actually truly love the new stuff? And do they truly hate the originals? So confusing.

[@hang10wannabe]

Amazing video. I've talked about many new movies with people who have used the "trash the classic" argument and the "just for kids"... great, laid out explanation of this. Thanks Retroblasting!

[@lizuncle]

Again you cannot blame the new fans for all these problems. Some of the old fans are set in their ways and they don't like the new stuff no matter how good or bad it is. These are fictional movies they should be enjoyed by everybody. Does it matter if the new or they're old. If you don't like the new stuff don't watch it. If you don't like the old stuff don't watch neither. After all we are just fighting over fictional characters not real people.

[@mknightshadowstorm]

Great job Michael. This is what I’ve been trying to say for years, but could never articulate this as brilliantly as you did here. It’s hard to have a back and forth with some fans of a different generation without having your opinion dismissed as “ it wasn’t made for you.” You’ve taken a great amount of time and patience to put this in perspective, and I thank you for it.

[@natbarmore]

Can you point me at people saying both "the sequel trilogy is good" and "the original trilogy wasn't any better"? I've not encountered anyone saying that. I've only run into (1) people who love the original, like the sequels, hate the prequels, (2) people who love the original, like the prequels, like the sequels, (3) people who love the original, love the prequels, hate the sequels, (4) people who love 4-6 & 8, like 7, hate the 1-3 & 9, and (5) people who don't particularly like Star Wars. You're making excellent points, but I feel like you're attacking a group (people who defend the sequels by claiming the originals aren't very good) that doesn't actually exist. The only people I've seen making the argument that the original trilogy is hack work also claim the sequels are hack work-they're not claiming that the sequels are good.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

nat barmore I’ve never encountered anyone say “the originals weren’t any better” either. It’s almost like die hard fans are making up that point 🤨🤔..... It’s probably due to me not going into certain forums often 😅🤷‍♂️.

[@avenuePad]

Exactly! This video is making excellent points against an argument I've never heard, ever. Though, I have met people who do like the prequels more than the originals. They were younger and grew up with the prequels. This kid literally said about the originals: "You mean the cheesy Star Wars movies with the puppets?" But he wasn't making any false equivalences between the prequel, sequels, and originals. He just grew up with the prequels and is still too young to know any better. He's not the brightest bulb, either. Lol Furthermore, I have never heard anyone say that the original Star Trek series is just for kids. I've never heard anyone say that about any Star Trek series or movie. My issue with some KZbinrs (Fandom Menace) is that they are preempting new series like Picard and Discovery with hate. And look, there are legitimate gripes and people are free to voice their opinions, but to criticize before a single episode is released is bad faith. I was nearly 13 when TNG was released and that show, which is now cherished by all fans, was met with hate and massive criticism for not being true Star Trek. Let's just remember that.

[@Quotheraving]

What about people like me who loved the originals (at the time). Found that all the revisions and changes to them actually made them worse. Hated the prequels with a passion. Thought the first of the sequels was "hyperactive meh" immediately after watching it and just plain bad after a minutes thought... & despised the rest of them.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Quotheraving This “RUINED FOREVER” mentally seems to be really messing with you lately 🤨🤷‍♂️😩🤷‍♂️.

[@Quotheraving]

@@kaylemathewcomendador6964 Firstly I was pointing to a widespread group that was excluded in the op's list of options.. As to your Strawman misrepresentation, I don't think it's ruined FOREVER, there's always the possibility that well crafted films will come from the IP, just that the prequels, sequels and revisions were, objectively.. really badly written, a view that appears to be reflected in this video. This in no way means that you can't have better films later that may breathe life into the IP.. Case in point the Mandalorian which is widely liked, even by people who didn't like the sequels/ prequels. Also I think you mean 'Mentality' not 'mentally'.

[@mjhonsun]

Great video! 2 minutes in, not only did I know exactly what you were talking about, but I wondered how you were able to make a video out of my private frustration over this same issue. Great job!

[@GenXToysGeek]

WOW, just WOW! Extremely well written!

[@GenXToysGeek]

@@KrazyJoesConcessionStand please explain where this video is dishonest and / or hypocritical ?

[@Avarn388]

MegaPodTastic Care to explain yourself? Because sure you can disagree with him. I do about the prequels as they aren’t well written but aren’t that bad. But his arguments are air tight.

[@thesuperfluousone2537]

We shouldn't be associating "fandom" with the problematic people. Those of us who see the flaws in modern film, without being blinded by passion, are also passionate fans ourselves. If you call out the fans as the problem, we in favor of better art will also be viewed as destructive. Other than that, great video.

[@lngodwetrust7117]

We can debate about any topic, detail, criticism, etc. But the truth is that at the end of the day ... When those Star Trek, Dr. Who, Star Wars vhs, dvd, blu-ray and / or streaming are on, WE ALL forget about all that crap, and we all turn 12 year olds again, and that's all that matters ... Thanks for posting your videos 👍

[@evertonporter7887]

Not me. I watch those shows now from an adult point of view, and simply suspend disbelief for an hour or two, seeing them for the science fantasy they are now, and always were.

[@petrie911]

Even after all the retcons, the scene in Obi-Wan's hut isn't a coincidence because all of them have good reason to be there. I defy anyone to explain how literally everything is on Jakku at the start of TFA.

[@emanueldavis7156]

The "its for kids" argument is in fact ridiculous. One must remeber that many recent franchises aimed at younger audiences such as Harry Potter and the Hunger Games are considered to be well written. Even C.S. Lewis wrote material with decent character development eventhough his works were aimed at kids.

[@katherynet1424]

This video is spot on. Very good arguments, I actually came across a sequel defender a few days ago also throwing shade at luke skywalker and was defending Rey. They really do use those tactics.

[@skylx0812]

They're basically religions now. There was such a thing as the Toledot Yeshu. Which was a very real concerted effort to discredit the New Testament and the validity of Christ. It seeded history with counter legends to confuse the naratives. Similar is happening with fandoms. And just as most people would rather just tip toe away from a religious conversation because its bound to devolve into a heated argument fandoms are going to find themselves isolated and left to their own ravings. Unless like any real religion today someone looks into the money.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

skylx08 Honestly I’ve seen the occasional original trilogy fan that act all “religious crazy” about those films 😅🤷‍♂️.

[@ToonamiT0M]

Excellent video and wonderful points. The only criticism I have is that defenders of this modern trash are not "fans." They are pop culture locusts. Real fans love their franchise of choice for its consistency of writing, character, and world building. The modern "fans" only like the new stuff because it's something trendy they can gorge on, decimate in the process, and then forget about when the next hip thing comes along. This leaves the real fans left standing out in a barren field of death and decay, desperately trying to recover something recognizable of their beloved franchise. And I want to be clear about what I mean when I say "real fan." I will do this with the following statement I came up with. "If you ask a thousand Trekkies 'What makes Star Trek, Star Trek?' you will get a thousand correct answers. But, if you ask the people making current Star Trek that same question, you will get nothing but wrong answers." There is no wrong way to be a real fan, as long as you actually want the best from and for the franchise. Modern pop culture consumers don't care about the actual franchise, just the brand name, and they will lie to not have to confront that fact. That's my 2¢, anyway.

[@Jake_E57]

The only hole in this argument is that it presupposes that we're all fans of the original trilogy first. A lot of these arguments that try to tear down the original classics, I find, come from newer fans such as kids who grew up with the prequel trilogy. It's a symptom of their nostalgia being based on a version of a classic that just isn't as good as the original. It doesn't make what you're saying any less true though. If all of the criticism of the original comes from hackneed retconning to make the new thing seem better then it's a false basis for an argument. Don't get me wrong I like the sequel trilogy, but it's story is a hot mess and after 3 films it still seems like we didn't get enough time with the characters to figure out who they are.

[@Jake_E57]

@@BSLcreations No it really doesn't, a lot of the "creative" people involved with making things based on this stuff now really need intensive courses on how to stay away from social media and know when to keep their mouths shut.