Review: More Barfalicious 'Urtext" Bruckner from Rattle

Bruckner: Symphony No. 7. London Symphony Orchestra, Simon Rattle (cond.) LSO

[@GastonBulbous]

The fact that the word "barfalicious" appears in the title of this video is one of the reasons I love this channel.

[@cloudymccloud00]

Agreed -- without even knowing what it meant. Having researched that, it's even better! (And, without having heard this recording, I have no doubts it's accurate.)

[@BriGuy1974]

I initially had questions, but then "Rattle" appeared at the end of the title and left no doubt in my mind.

[@matthewbbenton]

They put out a critical edition no one asked for, then LSO buys all new parts and licenses it for a new recording no one asked for? It sounds like a money laundering operation.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Doesn't it?

[@apv4179]

That’s kind of par for the course with nowadays LSO. I live in London, where I moved because I had won an orchestral fellowship audition, and the reasons why I no longer actively perform and switched over to admin. are in a similar vein to why I find these “reading rehearsal” recordings to be underwhelming. It’s a known fact that all London orchestras don’t engage their players as full time employees, but rather operate on a model where the umbrella LSO/LPO/Philharmonia/RPO corporations draw from a pool of recurring freelancers. Ie, you’re not “principal timpanist” of the LSO, you’re “first call to be hired for principal timpanist” on a given concert. This way, they can perform 3 shows a week of different programs with different guest conductors under the same banner. They also get paid per service, and with these guest conductors being flown in, housed, fed, and paid absurdly high fees for a single concert (up to hundreds of thousands for dog talent), the orchestra needs to cut down on costs by taking advantage of the sight reading ability of musicians and perform a concert on a single rehearsal. If it’s bog standard rep, they won’t even rehearse it. I’ve been to a concert at the Proms with Pons conducting a bunch of Spanish influenced stuff, and spoke to a percussionist afterwards who seemed surprised at the amount of time he spent rehearsing the Bolero (it was very very good btw). London has fine musicians, all really gifted studio sight readers, but that’s no excuse to cut their rehearsals to the bare bone. No wonder they sound tired and so many of them burn out from the profession early (myself included).

[@apv4179]

The BBCs and the Opera houses are the exception, though in these money saving times who knows for how much longer….

[@cloudymccloud00]

Thank you for stating what accords very well with what has been my impression for very many years. I've long given up listening to anything live on Radio 3, as 99% of it sounds exactly as you describe; and when you are occasionally drawn in, the audience noise ensures the whole thing is a write-off. A sad state of affairs, indeed. (And Rattle is exactly the type to gleefully take advantage of audiences' lack of discernment.)

[@NigelRamses]

It’s all so frustrating. Speaking for myself, opportunities to listen to a lengthy work when I won’t be disturbed and my attention span is behaving nicely are rare. I’ve been slowly getting to know Bruckner and enjoying myself. The fact that this thing with Rattle, as well as other unworthy recordings are polluting catalogs makes it so difficult to get on a proper track with Bruckner. I thank you for your guidance in selecting good places to start with these works. How many people who aren’t aware of or prepared for the madness of the Bruckner universe will select something like this recording and subsequently give up on hearing the other symphonies? If I spent one of my three or four evenings per month when I might have good listening conditions on an hour plus long thing that bored me, I doubt I’d come back for more if I didn’t already know better.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

This one requires the full corral of horses sound effect.

[@leestamm3187]

As you often have noted, there are many great Bruckner 7 recordings to enjoy. Who needs this one? Regarding Rattle, I'm ever more convinced that it must be his hair. Why else would he draw so much unwarranted attention? As to your review, please don't sugar coat it, David. Tell us what you really think. ;)

[@djquinn4212]

Lolz! Made my day to see this hilariousness! Turning attention to releases that matter: Did your hard copy of the Bychkov Mahler 1 come yet?!?!?!? It got released digitally yesterday!!!!! It’s been SOOOO much fun following that cycle as each new symphony comes out!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I have it.

[@kjetilheilandsrensen2112]

The best part here is the wonderful throwing at the end.

[@b286guy]

There’s something very sick and twisted with the Bruckner people. Why do they insist on torturing the eternal soul of this kindly man? Why not just enjoy the masterpieces he left us with as they are?

[@eddihaskell]

Because Bruckner people are the Deadheads (Grateful Dead fans) of the classical world. We are always looking for that "trip" we felt when we first "communed" with Bruckner's soaring heights when we first discovered his music. I am not being the least bit sarcastic.

[@bbailey7818]

It's Bruckner's own fault for not burning everything, every scrap of music paper, but the ones he decided were definitive and final.

[@b286guy]

@@eddihaskell And I think that’s why we keep listening to concerts and recordings, not to hear if some genius fooled around with what Bruckner wrote, but to experience it for what it is and as performed by the musicians. As Dave mentioned, the conductor working with an orchestra makes all kinds of decisions in rehearsals and realizes their conception of the piece for better or for worse. Sometimes we hear new details or feel differently depending on phrasing, dynamics, etc. But a work like Bruckner 7, so magnificent and (in my opinion) perfectly written, why would we want someone with a pen and an agenda tinkering with the score?

[@furdiebant]

More of Sir Simon’s Prattle

[@DavidJohnson-of3vh]

You'll be glad to know that via my time machine, I have traveled to the distant future to develop/ produce/distribute the complete urtext editions of your music discussions. People can now view 'Original Dave Series' and compare with the included new color-coded comments translated by dismissed and disgraced musicologist from Baxia. You are eternally famous ... You do a great job! All members of future civilizations now wear a necktie with THE NINTH emblazoned upon it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for reporting back to us!

[@Andrew_from_Oz_Vinyl_Landscape]

Listened to this and it’s bloody awful as advertised , thx Dave !, I conjecture he has developed the KARAJAN disease of blurring all instruments sections into treacle

[@robkeeleycomposer]

Very entertaining, and a much-needed corrective to the collective Rattle-worship currently in the UK! 🙂

[@Warp75]

He was at the Proms last week conducting Mahler’s 9th…..I switched it off. Zero tolerance

[@jimyoung9262]

I'll never understand how Simon Rattle isn't unloading trucks somewhere for a living.

[@horsedoctorman]

Interestingly, Simon Rattle is the only musician I've ever heard criticized on BBC Radio 3. I think it was after a performance of a Schumann symphony with the Berlin Phil. The presenter felt the conductor was excessively interventionist. "They sound so good, why doesn't he just let them play?" As normally on Radio 3 everybody is wonderful it stands out in my memory!

[@richardtomasek]

Both BBC Music and Gramophone find everything he does just fabulous. Of course, they fawn over any young conductor or a woman conductor - whether they are good or not.

[@jacquesracine9571]

I’m rattled.

[@john1951w]

Dave, can I share this with you from a friend of mine with some Rattle experience: "I did a lot of work & recording with Rattle in the 1980s & early 90s. I have to say I think a lot of his recordings are excellent although the process of getting them was tedious in the extreme. Recording Prokofiev 5 , we’d toured the work performing it perhaps 12 times before going into the sessions then did long takes, whole movements over & over on day 1. Day 2 we “patched” virtually every bar (6hrs) then Day 3 was 6 more hours of long takes, full sections & then full movements. Because they were guaranteed sellers EMI spent the extra money for the time. In general Mahler, Janecek, Prokofiev, Nielsen etc. were OK but Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert or anything Classical were not good & very much over thought (which I think set a pattern for lots of later young conductors!). I’m sure BPO must have helped with the German rep, but hearing a Beethoven 7th with them on the radio recently didn’t feel it was great despite excellent playing! I’d say he seems/seemed to look for the music & put his stamp on it rather than letting it the music speak for itself as someone like Kempe did ! (This is just my take on Rattle!)" Make of that what you will.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very interesting.

[@furdiebant]

Sounds about right

[@john1951w]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Too much overthinking and not seeing the wood for the trees springs to mind, eh?

[@falesch]

I appreciate your taking the time to write all of this, Mr. Quarter Rest. Very interesting views from one who was there. I wonder if Rattle set the pace for many who followed. I've had my fill of younger conductors nowadays who feel the need to micro-sculpt into oblivion these evergreens from the central repertoire for the sake of "putting his stamp on it", as you wrote.

[@rogerchristensen5792]

Markus Poschner wants to record every edition of the Bruckner symphonies ever made. I actually like that idea, but I doubt he will include this one.

[@kevpendle2459]

Hello David Hurwitz. I just want to add my name to the list of utubers who have benefitted from your recomendations: I've got both the jochum Bruckner sets,Wands Beethoven set,Svetlanov Tchaikovsky's and wroickisdvoraks (icant spell it) I've tried once or twice to get to appreciate/like Brahms thesymphonies,without success,until I watched your Brahms symphonies must have and... Result! I guessed you wouldn't recommend Karajan without a compelling reason so I got it. And I think I'm hearing Brahms the great symphonist for the first time. As with the jochum Bruckners and wandsbeethoven, I'm hearing transparency,luminosity and compelling orchestral sound. Thanks for all that, gregory Manchester UK

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you!

[@gigifaricelli]

I'm starting to understand what you mean when you say Bruckner people are crazy.

[@ahartify]

The album notes sound like an instruction manual for a home assembly furniture kit.

[@dennischiapello3879]

Flat-pack Bruckner!😃

[@MarauderOSU]

Dave, this is what I like about your videos. You make me spend money, but you also help me save money, too. Subscribing to Classics Today Insider has also helped.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Awesome, thank you!

[@RobertJonesWightpaint]

Thank you for sparing me from buying this: I'll stick with the Abbado.

[@koos8034]

A long long time ago I bought Sibelius 5th by Rattle. That cured me forever (Rattle wise so to speak). Whenever I see Rattle's name I don't even bother to listen to it anymore. And seeing him with his lower jaw on his feet, horrible!

[@rogergersbach3300]

Naysayers! I'd like to hear a Bruckner symphony cycle done by AI in Bruckner's style, of course. For completion.

[@JarrettWalksOttawa]

Borekner

[@nilsneuenfeldt2464]

Forget about all this BRUUUUckner crap and simply enjoy this great music in which version ever you prefer...

[@tomthumb2361]

I was present when R stood in for an indisposed Groves in Liverpool with the RLPO about 50 years ago. I've been very disappointed by him ever since, particularly given that both Beecham and Boult were both from close by, St Helens and Chester if I recall correctly

[@kanishknishar]

What year was this and what was the program?

[@doctormock1]

It's like the song in Gypsy. If you don't have a quality product to sell, "You Gotta Get a Gimmick."

[@dennischiapello3879]

Exactly. Because "to have no talent isn't enough."

[@intramonto]

This sounds more like a graphic design project than a musically substantive editorial enterprise.

[@TitanicConcerts]

Dave, I know you’ll be in the front row for Sir Simon’s Mahler 6 next year. Bring him flowers!

[@eddihaskell]

Even without hearing it, the combination of Rattle/LSO/ and Bruckner - even if it wasn't recorded at the notoriously horrid acoustics of the Barbican-- sounds about as appealing as a repeat of one of the worst meals I ever had in my life, Swedish Meatballs at the Ikea in Wembley London.

[@raymondcox789]

Most recordings, regardless of conductor, are spoilt by the Barbican acoustics, but what would Rattle be thinking after he spent 17 years in the wonderful acoustics of Birmingham's Symphony Hall?

[@JanPBtest]

0:39 Nice Swiss German there🙂

[@dmntuba]

Rattle is out of London so maybe things will return to "normal."

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

I learned long ago to avoid pretty much everything Rattle ever recorded. There may be some good stuff, but nothing I can’t find at least as good (and mostly much better) from other conductors.

[@jimyoung9262]

Good advice.

[@AlexMadorsky]

My this sounds dreadful. The 7th as we know it is just fine. No one needs any additional text, context, or ur-text.

[@gonzostick]

One of my conducting teachers, a Szell pupil, described bored orchestras playing, "the mezzo forte of indifference !" I don't waste my time on the idiocy of Bruckner, anyway! Bwahahahahahahaaaa!

[@VisiblyJacked]

Rattle doesn't understand Bruckner, he doesn't have the temperament for Bruckner, it seems like he lives in a different musical and aesthetic universe from Bruckner. YET HE PERSISTS IN RECORDING AND PERFORMING BRUCKNER. Why?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Because he can.

[@robhaynes4410]

I re-nominate the entire LSO label for Least Important Recording Projects Ever. This is just another tile in the mosaic of mediocrity & poor decision making of an otherwise great orchestra.

[@b286guy]

A great orchestra sadly let down by the recording label, conductors, and that god awful hall that ruins the sonics of nearly every performance. The LSO deserves better.

[@davidblackburn3396]

These people have too much time on their hands. Must be nice! Look on the bright side, Dave: I've never gotten up close and personal with the 7th, but this video of yours inspired me to give it another chance. So I dialed it up on KZbin, Karajan/Vienna. Guess what? I think I'm beginning to come around. Just goes to show that you're right: Keep On Listening! I think it was Ives who said, Don't be afraid to stretch your ears! Thanks Dave!

[@cloudymccloud00]

I recommend Karajan BPO, 1971. Herbie in his prime. Nothing like it.

[@davidgoulden5956]

Totally agree. Has a glow about it no other version I've heard comes close to (including K's own '75 DG version and his late 80s DG version). The opening is how Bruckner heard it in his dreams. @@cloudymccloud00

[@davidblackburn3396]

@@cloudymccloud00 I'll definitely check it out, thanks a million. Do you have a favorite recording of the 8th?

[@cloudymccloud00]

@@davidblackburn3396 Glad to help! The best 8th, to my ears (that I've heard, whilst not really expecting to find any better) would be Karajan's last Vienna Philharmonic recording (Nov 1988). There are flaws: the raucous trumpets seem, at times, to want to scupper the whole thing; but Karajan is solid throughout, and the recording is rather incredible, with a spacious presence unlike anything else I've ever come across -- quite an experience. Overall, I've heard no better 8th.

[@davidblackburn3396]

@@cloudymccloud00 Thank you kindly, much appreciated! 👍

[@alexhaselden4623]

Rattle made another boring recording? The same Rattle who managed to create the most boring recording of all time (Brahms Piano Concerto 1 with Zimerman)?

[@barryguerrero6480]

In my biased opinion, London orchestras just do not produce the right type of sound for Bruckner. The L.P.O. probably comes the closest. Even many American orchestras struggle to come up with an idiomatic sound, or - more importantly - idiomatic phrasing and inflections. Chicago and Pittsburgh would be two very big exceptions to that. I'm not even that crazy about the London orchestras in Mahler, but sometimes they do nail that.

[@raphaelfournier8273]

As dull as Konwitschny (on Edel) or early Masur (on BMG, both with the Gewandhaus btw) ? Then, considering his prettified non-existent 9th, Rattle is a serious contender for the worst Bruckner interpreter alive.

[@stpd1957]

I have rarely found anything by SSRattle interesting, very often it's boring.

[@falesch]

:--) :--) Perhaps a little more passion next time, David?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I'll try.

[@angelosclassics05]

I'm not surprised at all. I listened to Rattle conduct Bruckner 6 with the LSO and it was awful. The sonics were so bad, that it was like the orchestra were playing in a room. It was so compressed, and Rattle's interpretation is beyond bland and beyond boring. Here is my opinion of Sir Simon Rattle. Whenever he takes over an orchestra, he destroys their sound. When he took over Berlin, he made the orchestra sound so plain and bland. Thankfully they sound brilliant again with Kirill Petrenko. Even the LSO don't sound as good anymore, but Sir Antonio Pappano is taking over and he has done some amazing stuff! I just don't get why Sir Simon Rattle is so overrated!