Review: Rocket Espresso Mozzafiato and Giotto PID Machines Live

[@rc5931]

Something not mentioned too well on these two is that the feet are adjustable. There are shims that can raise or lower the machine. You can see in this video that the Mozzafiato does not have the shims on and the Giotto does. When they are measuring the height difference, that is the reason. I believe both of these machines will be the same height if they both either have shims on or both have shims off.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi R C, Thank you for adding that information!

[@lludwick]

All 2017 domestic espresso machines (except for Appartamento) ship from the Rocket Espresso factory with height adjustable feet. The unique two piece design allows for the top half of the foot to be removed lowering the overall machine height by 20 mm for environments where this is desirable. Alternatively the top piece can be left intact giving the full 55 mm foot height. *Please note all Mozzafiato body style machines are supplied with 35 mm height feet .

[@blinkyburger]

I just tried to plumb in my mozzafiato, but when I turn the water on, it immediately drips out from the bottom of the machine. Any idea what the problem is here?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi bb, There are a number of spots that it could be leaking from. 1st step is tracking done the source of the leak. May just be a loose connection where the plumb line connects to the machine. Definitely recommend using a pressure regulator on the plumb in line to reduce input pressure to

[@blinkyburger]

@@Wholelattelovepage thanks for the response! - I can turn the pressure down to just a dip, but it will still cause the machine drip!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

@@blinkyburger Were you able to identify the source of the drip?

[@blinkyburger]

@@Wholelattelovepage no, the technician I spoke with said that the solenoid valve dedicated for the direct line could have burst during shipping.

[@sickhcivc]

If a dual boiler and heat exchange both let you use the steam wand and pull a shot, whats the reason for going for a dual boiler?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi s, Thanks for a great question. Depending on the type of HX machine dual boiler machines in comparison have better overall control of brew temps. HX boiler machines with PID are nearly as accurate as dual boiler machines. With HX machines brew temps can change with quick back to back repetitive brew cycles. HX boiler machines without PID temp control usually require a cooling flush prior to brewing. Dual boiler machines do not. Marc

[@Coffelife_go]

What is the round nob thing on the bottum of all the rockets under and behind the backflush drain

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey MJ, it's a drain port. Depending on machine it may route water from OPV valves, safety valves and vacuum relief valves so moisture ends up outside of the machine. Marc

[@Coffelife_go]

I have Cronometro evo R newest one and was cleneng IT and saw a drop ore two coming from the nob thing so i went true the Manual to find out but do not say enything on IT... so all is good then i guess🙂?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Yes, drips are perfectly normal’

[@leannjaeger2538]

I have the mozzafiato evo R machine. What is a good all around temp to set the PID right now its at 120

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi LJ, Here's a link to a Rocket manual. There's a temperature chart on page 26 with brew temps by boiler temps for Rocket HX boiler machines. According to the chart 120C produces a brew temp of 93.6C which is the middle of the range for espresso brewing. Go a degree or 2 cooler for dark roasts and a degree or 2 warmer for light roasts. Manual: support.wholelattelove.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/1500003559562/2017_Range_-_User_Manual__All_Machines_.pdf Hope that helps! Marc

[@jank-official]

Did rocket use spring loaded valves at all?

[@andybecker5040]

If someone doesn't have a place to plumb the machine, are there other benefits to a rotary pump vs vibration?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Andy, Thank You for the question. Rotary pumps are quieter and should last longer than vibration pump. Some user prefer shot quality of rotary vs. vib but it goes the other way as well. Rotary pumps get up to full brewing pressure faster and may provide slightly more consistent pressure.

[@dwikafebrianto3016]

I think, with Marc presenting and explaining the product himself make people want to purchase the machine fast!

[@JohnyTechReview]

Did it for me. Profitec 500 pid coming from wll. Marc is the best.

[@dwikafebrianto3016]

@@JohnyTechReview awesome! Is it better than Giotto or Mozzafiato in your opinion? They are very similar.

[@ascosta]

One more... on the Giotto R, I can see that the color of the boilers look like brass? Are they copper boilers with brass ends? Are they plated internally (I read on some forum that the are nickel-plated)? Trying to figure out if the water comes in contact with brass, which is known to sometimes leach lead into the water. Thanks for the quick replies, BTW. You guys are awesome!

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Thanks for the comment - we do our best! Boilers are copper with brass end plates which is typical for machines with copper boilers. I cannot speak with authority on lead leaching. It's my understanding it's a low lead variety of brass used in boilers. I've heard some manufactures plate boilers internally. Also heard microscopic scaling inside boilers would prevent leaching. Also steam from boiler is essentially distilled water so does not carry other "stuff". Normal operating practice with HX machine is to flush the boiler a bit on a regular basis if only using steam to prevent concentration of scale causing minerals over time.Totally aware the lead thing scares some people. I personally am fairly certain it's not a problem in copper/brass espresso machine boilers. For those it bothers I suggest choosing a machine with a stainless steel boiler. Profitec Pro 500 PID is stainless and has similar performance to the Rocket EVO R machines.

[@ascosta]

Thanks. Yeah, the thing is the Profitec 500 does not have a plumbable version :(... though the 700 does, but it's more expensive... sigh. Too many parameters which are hard to reconcile :)

[@snowman7234]

Question for Marc, could you please do me a favor and take a measuring tape to the Mozzafiato Cronometro R and measure the total height of the machine (INCLUDING the cup rail)? I'm seeing a whole bunch of different measurements online that range from 400mm to 425mm. I need to know precisely what it is as my countertops have exactly 402mm of clearance. Yea, I have a wooden trim beneath my cabinets... sigh. Also, is there a way to shorten the Mozzafiato by a few mm? Buy new legs or something?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Snowman, Sure... The Mozzafiato Evo R I have: www.wholelattelove.com/products/rocket-espresso-mozzafiato-evoluzione-r is 394mm. You could put different feet on the machine. But, keep in mind the Evo R versions of the Mozzafiato have a water inlet valve which extends below the machine so you can't go too much shorter on the legs. And, you will want to plumb the machine as your overhanging cabinets will limit access to the water reservoir. Hope that helps! Marc

[@snowman7234]

Whole Latte Love thank you so much for taking the time, i really appreciate it! It would be really nice to see you guys pull a measuring tape when doing product reviews, after all, if it doesn’t fit, we can’t purchase :) It would also serve to confirm specs written by manufacturers. As you can see, you’re measuring 394mm even when Rocket’s own spec sheet displays 400mm. Thanks again!

[@lludwick]

@@snowman7234 i found this information online: All 2017 domestic espresso machines (except for Appartamento) ship from the Rocket Espresso factory with height adjustable feet. The unique two piece design allows for the top half of the foot to be removed lowering the overall machine height by 20 mm for environments where this is desirable. Alternatively the top piece can be left intact giving the full 55 mm foot height. *Please note all Mozzafiato body style machines are supplied with 35 mm height feet .

[@lludwick]

All 2017 domestic espresso machines (except for Appartamento) ship from the Rocket Espresso factory with height adjustable feet. The unique two piece design allows for the top half of the foot to be removed lowering the overall machine height by 20 mm for environments where this is desirable. Alternatively the top piece can be left intact giving the full 55 mm foot height. *Please note all Mozzafiato body style machines are supplied with 35 mm height feet .

[@ascosta]

Question for Marc or Todd... guys, on the Giotto, where does the water that runs through the thermosyphon return to? Does it return to the boiler itself or is it mixed with fresh water and delivered with the brew water when we activate the lever? In other words... when we pull a shot, is the brew water 100% fresh from the water line/tank or does it also contain water from the boiler? Thanks.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi ascosta, Water circulating in the thermosiphon returns to the heat-exchange section of the boiler which is isolated from the hot water/steam section of the boiler. So, brew water is "fresh". The heat exchange section which provides brew water receives new water only when the pump is activated by raising the brew lever. Water in the larger steam producing section of the boiler never mixes with brew water. Hope that makes sense :) Marc

[@ascosta]

Yes, it does make sense. I read somewhere that some thermosyphon systems do return the water to both the boiler and the brew water when the lever is activated to help stabilizing the brew water temp, so I just wanted to check the specific implementation of the Giotto.... thinking about getting one :)

[@ascosta]

Another question: on the Giotto R, can I use it in water line mode, but connect the hose to a larger external water tank, instead of actually hooking it up to the water line?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

We run plumbable rotary pump machines all the time with the plumbed in line simply dropped into a water container. We've run an Expobar machine like that for more than a year with no problems. Guessing it's not a setup a manufacturer would recommend but we've never had a problem. If water source is too far below the pump the pump may not have enough head pressure to suck up the water.

[@ascosta]

Yeah, that's what I thought... if the switch only changes the path of the water that comes in, then it should work, as the pump is able to pull from the tank anyways.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

The rotary vs vibratory pump ramp up is interesting, never knew it ramps up so quick. I think that should be taken into account when you're timing your shot. 30 sec shot from when you hit the swtich on the rotatory machine is going to be different than a 30 sec shot from a vibratory machine.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Ben hi, thanks for the comment! I agree 100%. One reason I advocate for those who use timing to time from first drip and aim lower into the typical 20-30 second range. Marc

[@dimsler7934]

I specifically purchased this machine as it is one of the very few home prosumer machines that have a rotary pump. Bezzera and similar manufacturers keeps pushing vibration pumps into there prosumer machines due to manufacturing costs, and its at the sacrifice of good coffee. After using a rotary pump bz40 at home for years, I absolutely refuse to purchase a vibrating pump, it does the exact opposite of what you want during a coffee extraction period. Take Leva or lever extraction machines such as the Athena, they hit the coffee at a full 14-15bar, and taper off pressure in a linear fashion. The two real schools of extract are either constant 9bar or linear 15-0bar extraction. Often these two are constantly debated about which create the best high-pressure assisted extraction and physiochemical characteristics. The purpose of the instant high-pressure is critical for high extraction yeilds while keeping polyphenol and chlorogenic acid as low as possible. Do not fall for marketing gimmicks of pre-infusion, its just nonsense, I assume the flavor difference he describes is titratable acidity which defies the whole purpose.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

@@dimsler7934 Lots of Rotary pump options for the higher end machines, from brands like Quickmill, ECM, Profitec, etc. Rocket offers the same machine with a vibratory or rotary pumps for a bit less or more $$. Pre-Infusion is a gimmick? Nice easy and long low pressure preinfusion is one reason it's easier to get good results with my La Pavoni Europiccola than it is with my dual boiler (rotary pump) Ecm Synchronika. It's debatable whether Vibration or Rotary pump makes any difference in taste, the main reason to get a rotary is that it's generally more quiet, and should last longer, they're also a lot more expensive to replace than a vibratory pump if something does happen to it. 14-15 bar for a 58mm machine is probably going to result in a lot of channeling. 9 Bar is high enough, a lot of people prefer 7 or 8 bars. But that might just be because it's easier to get good consistent results at lower pressure, at 14 bar you better have an amazing grinder and immaculate puck prep!

[@satriany31]

I think the rotary pump with the e61 is only great combined with direct plumbing because you can put the lever in open position without activating the pump and you pre infuse as much as you like with pressure from the water line. Going directly to 9 bar seems a bit violent and is less forgiving.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

@dimsler7934 I think I do agree now about pre infusion at least when it comes to e61, whatever the pre infusion or flow control does on e61 isn't quite as good as whatever the Breville (and likely other more modern) machines do. I think plumbing in might give you better results being at 3-4 bars with line pressure for a pre infusion on e61 but I never had one plumbed in.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

I think with a PID the downside might be that steam pressure doesn't get as high because the boiler is probably generally lower pressure / temperature, anyone confirm this?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hi Ben, Thanks for the question. Yes you may have a bit less steam pressure. It's not really due to the PID but what temperature the PID is set to. To get brew temp accuracy without flush on PID you're generally setting boiler to a lower temp than you'd have running in pressurestat controlled machine. Could have the same thing on machine with temp controlled by pressurestat - all depends on what you set it to. Marc

[@ajdinzolota3398]

Are these two machines the same as older Giotto V2 and Cellini when it comes to inside components, with just few design changes on the outside ?

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Ajdin Zolota not really. Some significant changes with the PID.

[@bertraminc9412]

Is it possible the ge the Mozzafiato with rotary pump with white gauges? I prefer rotary pump but prefer white gauges. I like the integrated rails of the Mozzafiato. Also looking at the Profitec Pro 700. Looking for highest quality with best features. I know the Profitec has very good quality manufacture as you mentioned in that video. I'm leaning toward the Profitec Pro 700 for that high quality you mentioned as well as the fact that their Pro 700 is made in Germany, which I trust.

[@Wholelattelovepage]

Hey b, Can't get the white gauges on the rotary pump Mozzafiato. It's white gauges on their vibration pump Chronometro machines and black on the rotarys. Profitec does have excellent quality! But heads up - although a German company with manufacturing in Germany the Pro 700 is assembled in Milan, Italy. Marc

[@bertraminc9412]

@@Wholelattelovepage Oh, ok. Thanks Marc! And that's interesting! I'd sent them a message and had not heard back yet. I guess that's why they didn't reply. I just don't get all this outsourcing. It is so short sighted.... the all mighty dollar over a prosperous society.. A German company with manufacturing space IN GERMANY doesn't want to employ GERMANS in Germany to put the parts together. It's a sad day when the highest quality manufacturing and design country begins to send the machine industry to other countries. I buy tools from a company called KCTools online. More and more of those German tool companies are simply giving up... and outsourcing their years of quality and caring for the mighty dollar. The tools are now being made in Taiwan and China. I grew up on Craftsman tools and as an adult bought a set of socket wrenches which I didn't notice were then made in China. The first time I turned a socket from the set, it snapped in half! The name Craftsman used to mean something. And you can bet your ass those executives at Craftsman were salivating the day they decided to outsource their production to China and were formulating their bullshit stories to Americans of how, "quality will be closely watched and maintained. We have staff in those factories who make sure nothing is compromised. It will be the same quality you grew up with! We promise you!" And yet my socket snapped right in half. I couldn't believe it. If craftsman is not out of business now they will be soon! No one will ever get me to believe a German employee cares about a part that they are making when they know it's being sent to another culture to assemble, simply because the company wants to save on rent and employee costs. This kind of stuff kills quality. People simply stop caring if they can't tell their friends that they actually "make" a product like an espresso machine. They have to tell their friends and family, "well, I make the parts.... the Italians get to assemble the parts I make". There is no pride in a product when you have to send your parts out of the country for assembly. It's depressing for everyone. Even the people in Italy don't care about parts that they have to put together that someone in another country made. They know when they are going to work that their company cares more about money than the product or the people involved. The definition of a good company will always be a company that controls the materials that are used to make a product; the manufacturing processes by overlooking it on a daily basis in their own factories in their own countries; monitors the final products as they come out of the assembly line in their own factories in their own countries; and then takes care of their own employees and their families.. in their own countries. I think everyone would agree that this is what makes the best companies today. There is pride in that and we all know when employees have pride their moral goes up and when their moral goes up the city in which they live has a higher level of moral. People go outside more. People smile more. They spend more money while they are out, which in turn makes the city more prosperous. When the local cities are more happy they become more prosperous and society blooms. This outsourcing benefits only the owners of the companies and the few top executives who get most of the pay. The employees are left to scrounge and make the best of it, which kills moral... and that is felt in society... which decays and crumbles. You can see it in the faces of the employees in the factory you visited in Italy. Go back and watch that video. None of them are smiling. Why do you think that is? They are hating every second of their day. It is sad and it crumbles the threads of society.