Reviewing Your HOTTEST Takes! - Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game | MESBG

[@ryangale3757]

Biggest hot take I can think of would be that fight value, defense, and strength should be on a 12 scale rather than a 10 scale (whenever they get around to doing a new edition). With GW's seemingly near-ironclad policy of not using the higher and lower ends of the 1-10 range very much, it's led to serious clumping in the middle and factions have steadily lost their flavor since there's no room to differentiate well. Shifting the scale to 12 would give the rules writers a lot more flexibility to make armies more unique with annoying situations like the professional soldiers of Numenor and the civilian militia of Survivors of Laketown being the same exact defense. Love the idea of a 'narrative only' tag for certain models, that's a great way to clean things up and avoid the ban/no ban question for a lot of models. As for Celeborn and Glorfindel, having played or played against both of them a fair bit, I am 100% in the camp of 'Celeborn is good but over-costed due to having magic he doesn't use much' and 'Glorfindel on his own sucks since he doesn't have the offensive capability to be the center piece of an army, but when paired with another similar hero that lets him play 2nd banana more often, he is a much, much more dangerous threat'. Glorfindel+Elrond or +Elendil is worlds better than Glorfindel by himself; by himself, I've never seen him perform like you'd want him to as the 'centerpiece' point sink, even in a magic meta.

[@rossgodding9676]

@ryangale3757 new player watching your kids to get a grasp of the rules. Have collected for a long time ;)

[@scottcoley2950]

Re: Suladan - balancing. His banner probably needs to be specific to Harad / Umbar. But I'd like to see more heroes brought up to his point efficiency or have special rules added to bring other heroes up to the standard of the Suladan types rather than just nerfing the most frequently used heroes.

[@smoothbrush4722]

Sure, give my Bolg a banner, save me 35 points, thanks Gw.

[@grimgrauman7650]

Just make hin like 10-15 points more expensiv. That would make him balanced.

[@GaspardSavoureux01]

Hot takes : solo warg should be cavalry models

[@Competentetyler]

Heroic Channeling for most spells is broken. For example: Regular Black Dart deals one hit. Channelled Black Dart has a 33% chance to deal one hit. The channel should always increase. Adjust it to 1 Hit (same as regular spell) + D2 addition hits. Same with Drain Courage, same with Sap Will. In almost all aspects of this beautiful game of chance, Might is used neutralize chance at specific moments. For Magic, Might retains the chance.

[@intothewestpodcast]

First read "broken" as too good 😅 now THAT would be a hot take lol But yes, totally agree with your points!

[@Competentetyler]

@@intothewestpodcast Agreed. Claiming Heroic Channeling is OP, give me all the red chilis for that super spicy take. Haha. I guess the “Hot Take” is: The majority of the Heroic Actions need rework as most are useless/rarely used (Channeling, Strength, Challenge, Resolve).

[@mrb7261]

I gotta agree on Heroic Strike. I’ve seen far too many opponents call a strike and then not get a tie. Frankly, I see it as next to useless. I see enough professional players praise it to understand that I’m probably wrong. But until I see it work, I’m sticking to my guns

[@Competentetyler]

Have you ever attempted sending two heroes into a single combat? One calls a Heroic Combat, the other a Heroic Strike. This gives a massive threat to the enemy and can force them to burn Might proactively for an attack on their hero. In this circumstance, Heroic Strike and or Defense will be needed. Otherwise, they are forced to call a Heroic Combat themselves (if they are lucky enough to be in combat) and hope to win the 50/50 roll off so they can reposition out of threat range.

[@chriskay284]

As always a very enjoyable watch. I would totally agree with Stephen in that rules have to make the game more fun to play, and would therefore be delighted to lose the special strikes which really suck all the pace out of the game. I never play them. I have a bit of an issue with throwing weapons and their unlimited supply. But that's a whole different story.

[@intothewestpodcast]

When throwing weapons were introduced in 2002, each model only could throw once per game. That was more realistic but had bookkeeping issues of its own!

[@nehrigen]

Heroic move > heroic strike

[@elvenarmorywargaming9913]

The key to the well balance debate is the part about "GW". MESBG is not perfectly balanced, it is probably not even well balanced, but compared to any other GW game it's chess.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Well said! 💯!

[@jeffreymonsell659]

I'd say it's pretty well balanced for how much variety there is in army comp and play styles. Systems with less room for expression will always be more balanced, so it's impressive for what it is.

[@elvenarmorywargaming9913]

@@jeffreymonsell659 I don’t know if I would call it a massively expressive game maybe because I’m a Fantasy player but when it comes to balance it’s not terrible after the latest faq. Still my favorite of these war games.

[@metascrub285]

I agree that fight is overrated abit. It's important, but imo attacks and strength are more important. At the end of the day who ever has more attacks is gonna have a higher chance of getting a higher number. You need strength to actually deal wounds. Dragon emperor only makes the fight value look oppressive is because the banner and pikes give it that weight of dice. At the end imo about of dice is more important then fight value.

[@intothewestpodcast]

I kinda agree with you, it's also why hunter orcs are so effective. The issue with attacks is that other than hunter orcs, there isn't a lot of spammable efficient 2 attack warriors models. Strength, I see your point but I still think fight value is more impactful. It's why elves have always been somewhat competitive. Fight value is even more important on heroes.

[@shishisei]

Hot take on the alleance matrix: keep it as it is, but add that armies in a yellow alleance can't just be a single model drop. It doesn't really fix the problems with soups, but it's something i guess

[@intothewestpodcast]

It would only “fix” one-drops that can’t lead troops. You’ll still see Suladan leading one serpent rider dropped in, etc. Personally, I see overtuned LLs as a bigger issue than unthematic soups. With all the new restrictions added via FAQs, we don’t see soup/yellow lists nearly as much as 3-4 years ago. -Charles

[@Competentetyler]

If the goal is to minimize LL and Yellow frequency, the best route would be to improve the Army Bonuses. Two birds with one stone. Don’t nerf, just make the sacrifice more intense.

[@saltman9998]

I must win Nova with the hobos

[@ciaosonoAlbertoG]

20:00 If you're seeing that horde armies eat up all the time of the game, why don't you use a chess clock?

[@intothewestpodcast]

It’s an interesting idea, but for MESBG it wouldn’t really work. With the priority system, the time required every turn varies, for example the player who moves first usually needs more time to make decisions. Turns can also take longer due to scenario or match up. It would also give huge advantage to shooty armies who can just skip move phase. Fight phase on a chess clock would also be very complicated as the whole phase involves both players.

[@erothill1082]

Hot takes: Heroic resolve, coming from small heroes like Cirion, at a turn where the opponent has priority and you can't reach their caster with a H move, is actually usefull

[@smoothbrush4722]

you guys think everytime a spear should take a shied? i have 6 spears and shields in my gundabad, but i want another warg, and don t have shield no upgrade pack, how much the shields worth it?

[@intothewestpodcast]

It's a nice to have but not a must have, I think you can drop the shields and have it still work. The d6 is nice but will come down to the matchup to determine how effective it is.

[@carsonhoward9489]

So one of my friends I play with o only get to see once a month and I’d like to play more than one game. So typically we will play at 500 points so we can bring multiple armies without having to pack up a lot of minis.

[@intothewestpodcast]

💯% great reason to go low points

[@metascrub285]

With game balance coming from someone who plays other competitive hobbies, i definitely think the game isn't as balanced as people think and there are factions clearly alot stronger then others. I think mesbg being a small niche hobby and most players are at the end of the day just hard core lotr fans that like you guys stated more play theme then out right trying to play the most powerful factions i think overall skew tournament results abit. Most people like to just play characters and factions they like. But its clear in tournament results that some factions are consistently topping and after facing dragon emperors and a few other meta factions i can clearly see power difference.

[@davidmartyn5044]

Your not necessarily fighting a faction, your playing list builders. I used to play bolt action and you can place a bet, Geman player will always bring a Tiger tanks.

[@grimgrauman7650]

Knight of Umbar is cool, but he is like 20p overcosted. If he were 150p on fell beast he would be cool. Main problem with him is that he gets killed very fast. I think on a fell beast, there should be a in the way for meele attacks, like a chariot. (But mayby not a 5+, that is way to hard. A 3+ would help meele nazgul a lot)

[@intothewestpodcast]

That buff would help the better wraiths so you would still take those over him lol (unless you want to run him in pure Umbar)

[@Competentetyler]

43:57 No guys… the hood?! Just had the awkward, laugh out loud moment at work. 😂

[@intothewestpodcast]

Of course! Every profile has to have a special rule 😉

[@panosgiannopoulos5279]

Well regarding the siege weapons is the only thing that can knock down the emperor from the palanquin so I wouldn’t ban them

[@intothewestpodcast]

That’s a pretty respectable argument to keep them around! 😅

[@panosgiannopoulos5279]

@@intothewestpodcast except paralyse I think again knock him to the ground but not sure how it works

[@joshoulton4501]

​@@intothewestpodcastand gondor trebuchet are good for killing other people's Boromir of the white tower.

[@grimgrauman7650]

​@@panosgiannopoulos5279he is knocked prone but stays on the palaqin

[@panosgiannopoulos5279]

@@grimgrauman7650 paralyze affects the hole model. So the palanquin is also prone?

[@ric1194]

Siege weapons should definitely be in the game, its not a competitive game and should be based around whats competitive. Sieges are an actual thing in this game and there they are fun. Defence and offensively. They are also fun to play with, not against yeah, but you cant say they arent fun to use when they are for the person using them.

[@freerundjs]

On the points discussion: higher points give more fun games Lower points give more fun listbuilding

[@intothewestpodcast]

Good point! I agree for the most part except sometimes at lower points in certain armies, it forces a cookie cutter build due to limited hero options, so a lot of the time it's just 1 beat stick and 1 captain filled out with warriors.

[@rossgodding9676]

Change is always good, but power creep is always an issue when introducing new variants. Just Say'in

[@lukesenyshyn4886]

Ahaha I agree with Scott! Isengard is a beast but they need to give more love to my dunland!

[@lukesenyshyn4886]

And do you think magic is a bit strong right now?

[@intothewestpodcast]

Magic has always been strong, just the nature of the mechanic I think will always be good. -Richard

[@OGEETOMO]

Looking forward to watching this video video and it's good to see some original content for MESBG coming out. I wonder if my hot take will be in it :)

[@grimgrauman7650]

Gw should stop with their LLs . Not every army need a LL. At least the last were the normal army with additional ruels. They kind of forgot what LLs were intendet for...😂

[@nehrigen]

In my local meta some problematic enemies like the Balrog can be held in check with him, and I have used him to buff a handful of of black nums (which I usually bring a few and one with a banner). He is hard to fit in under 800 but if I run pure pirates at 800 I find him very useful to also burn big heros will for dalymr to smoke bomb and kill.

[@intothewestpodcast]

How does the Knight of Umbar hold off the Balrog? The transfix won't be very reliable?

[@leonk.3739]

​@@intothewestpodcastI guess by also being F10 but having the option to might up your dices. Although I think that this is way too risky because you will never kill the Balrog but he will kill the KoU if 1 roll off goes his way. Sending in a reaver and killing it with throwing weapons seems like a better option imo

[@jamesellis5942]

@intothewestpodcast I've killed the balrog twice with the KoU and reavers lol just gotta win that 50-50 roll off

[@nehrigen]

​@@intothewestpodcastit's often a threat of doing serious harm. Matching fight, strength, and attacks while having might means I have a greater than 50% chance of hurting him and possibly breaking that very annoying legion. The Balrog players will often shy away from that risk.

[@metascrub285]

Honestly, think against ministrith you need to spend might to get kills. Boromir banner is too strong and I think you need as many kills as possible to soften the offence the army is dishing out.

[@Competentetyler]

The army has no offense, outside the heroes. Moreover, Minas Tirith thrives on numbers. The main goal with lessening numbers early on is to force an enemy to play cautiously as they approach Break Point (which would allow VPs and models running from failed Courage Checks). Minas Tirith’s high model counts and army bonus of courage, plus lots of Bodyguard models, does not make them a prime candidate for early Might usage on troops.

[@metascrub285]

@Competentetyler what you mean no offence lol. Boromir with his banner makes your warriors fight 5 with a banner reroll. You should be winning most duel rolls against all factions besides dragon emperor.

[@Competentetyler]

@@metascrub285 By no offense, I’m referring to no troops with S4 and no 2H weapons (no axes either to Piercing Strike).

[@Peaty1992]

Strike should be (1 + D3) not D6. Orcs 2h Should be free. Heroic Resolve should stop heroic channeling affects. Heroic challenge should go off in move phase and go off before Heroic moves. There should be a drum in some good armies or good LL. Any special attacks should not force another roll. -> Either add in Discipline troops keywords make it -1 Fv and -3Fv for stab/feint If you're trapped you lose tie for duels (If same FV) Fix Maelstrom Give Aragorn extra banner affect Give Gandalf reroll courage bubble + extra 2 will or reroll resist buff / resistant to magic Reinstate shieldman +spearman can be supported by pike Simplify Terrain and fleetfoot etc. Natural / Urban perhaps. I think Hero of Legend should elven blade heroic combat/move off ties, I.E WK v Gondor captain, Evil becomes 1 - 4, Good 5,6. Heroes of legend might points should be worth more than an average hero.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Lots of great suggestions!! ... Though your upgraded Resolve is still not very good IMO haha

[@grimgrauman7650]

But aragron already has a 6" banner in return of the king and as king ellesar.

[@Competentetyler]

@@grimgrauman7650And Imrahil… a prince… is 12” 🤷🏽‍♂️ Boromir and Suladan’s banner matching that of King Elessar (who’s point total is nuts in comparison), doesn’t sit right balancing.

[@Sacrilege83]

Is it asking too much for F4 goblins? IS IT !?

[@intothewestpodcast]

Maybe in the upcoming new edition? Right now prowlers can get to F4 with Groblog, and in the Depths of Moria legendary legion.

[@jackwhorton6826]

Not sure why you would rate WK nazgul especially highly? He's bog basic with the exception of 1 extra might. That's handy for the resurrection roll I'll give you that. Re rolling all wounds for an entire game is surely worth more than 1 might though? It is also equal to or better than +1 to wound in every S/D combination. So really its more whether you value killing more or the mobility of the lingering shadow IMV. He's definitely one of the best. Being able to spear support in a pinch is just icing on the cake.

[@intothewestpodcast]

The killey wraiths are not bad, WK is just a better leader like you said less likely to go away especially without the Necromancer. So it depends on the list you're playing with them. Also, I'm not sure the reroll is always better, looking at the odds chart (Drawn Combat blog has a good one), the +1 to wound comes out on top a lot of times. Agree, lingering is top tier.

[@Ancalag]

Weapons rules are pretty bad: - Two-handed weapons are unbalanced and should be reworked by a simple +1 Strength for example. - Spears should be useful on the first line and Armies with no access to spears are extremely less powerful. Maybe all the model should be able to support an ally. - Pikes should be specifically useful against Cavalry. - Special Strikes are trash and should be reworked or removed (but you already talked about it ^^).

[@intothewestpodcast]

Great points for when we do a pt2 ;)

[@grimgrauman7650]

If they made that all two-handed weapons had the ruel of the lamedon broadswords (nat 6 does not get -1) they would be fine. +1 to wound is really strong but -1 on duel roll is way worse for something you have to pay for. Or make them like a lance that you don't get -1 on a charge

[@Ancalag]

@@grimgrauman7650 In my personnal rules, I just keep all the burly, master weapon, lamedon rules as they are and so change the +1 Strength into a +1 to wound. For me it's the easiest way to balance the main rule without having to change any other one. It stays under a Shield for the same price, as the shield have his Shielding rule, when you can't hold an other weapon with a two-handed one. But maybe the ogininal rule can become a special strike for two-handed weapon, but it started to hit hard with the burly rules (+2 to wound XD).

[@thecrzyirishman]

Scott makes me laugh

[@jamesellis5942]

I love the knight of Umbar in corsairs. I find that running heavy black numenoreans can be on par with mordor because it can help maximize the value you get from your crossbows by having a more durable frontline. Also, it can help with might conservation in an already low might list as you're less inclined to call heroic moves as they're more likely to fail courage tests with the harbinger. The knight thrives on fighting monsters, mid tier heroes, and basic troops. I routinely get him to the end game with 8 or 9 will left with the rule preventing will loss. Combat mimicry is definitely underwhelming but can be incredibly clutch against high fight/attack models. Nobody can argue hes also the best caster in a pure corsairs list lol

[@lutzeichmeyer9338]

That's really cool! As a Mordor/angmar player, I always thought they just had to spam the crap out of Corsairs for the OP backstabber spearmen and +2 to wound reavers. Do you use some corsairs with those numenoreans too? And do you use the bosun + reavers too?

[@intothewestpodcast]

He’s 100% the best caster in Umbar, no arguing with that!

[@jamesellis5942]

@lutzeichmeyer9338 I've tried it every which way but i prefer a standard black num front line with corsair spears with maxed out crossbows. Ive had success with reavers if you bring some BNs in their warband to tank shooting for them. I also like bringing the Numenorean marshall to knock down infantry to proc that backstabbers.

[@lutzeichmeyer9338]

Cool!

[@leonk.3739]

I would never take the KoU in a competitive list. I think that if you go for heavy BN - Umbar (which - imo - is the best version of it) you can just take a different wraith instead. I'd probably just go with the WK since you don't really need the army bonus once a big part of your front doesn't benefit from it and you could just get S4 spears. The KoU is also quite expensive so getting lots of traps is less likely. Even if you want to go for a green alliance I'd prefer to to take the Betrayer to double down on the shooting

[@frostedblakes3139]

This isnt that hot a take, but fix the friggen useless heroic actions! - strength should be d3+1 so you always will get some benefit to wounding - resolve shouldnt stop moving. It goes off immediately when used. - challenge should refund might if refused shoot and accuracy are super niche but I would be leery to buff shooting to promote more gunline play.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Agree 100%! For Strength though I’d maybe leave it the way it is. D3+1 would guarantee a +1 to wound -for one Might you’d just call it all the time.

[@grimgrauman7650]

I think resolve should also buff the courage. Like +2 courage to everybody in 6" . That would be great if you are broken and don't want to do the 50/50 moveoff to stay on the board. That said, it acculy goes of immediately

[@frostedblakes3139]

@@intothewestpodcast I see what you mean, but also it's not a guarantee either. Using strength may get you extra wounds vs. spending a might for a single plus 1 is a guarantee based on the dice you rolled. So it's a low floor high ceiling play to call a strength. It also competes for your heroic action call too vs. strike or defense. I mostly think it needs a buff based on the fact that in 2 years of playing I've seen it called maybe 3 times!

[@Yoheiyohey]

The most balanced GW game is not a high bar. As a company who sells models and rules, their goal is to skew gameplay to yield income. Hence the rollercoaster of power creep with release. Lotr is no better than 40k in this, it’s just that there are fewer releases per year, “more balanced”

[@intothewestpodcast]

Interesting take, thanks for sharing!

[@Yoheiyohey]

@@intothewestpodcast you guys are always so polite 🥰 love your content!

[@Corppi22]

Absolutely batshit bonkers take. 40k balance passes change points values and rules so significantly that entire armies get thrown under the bus regularly, sometimes so badly they arent even legal lists anymore. Meanwhile in current mesbg edition there's been what, like 1 model that changed in its points values? And that's after a load of supplements and biannual balance erratas?

[@Yoheiyohey]

@@Corppi22 I think there is a similar pattern, release op, let simmer for a year, then nerf right before next op release

[@punchyMiddleEarth]

💩 take, there is zero comparison between 40K and mesbg.

[@kangaroo8858]

I think bringing back voley, wouldnt be a bad idea, sufice it would be heroic activity and/or be used max 1 per game

[@provostmorkane8034]

why have it in the game at all then if you reduce it to something terrible?

[@lutzeichmeyer9338]

Hot take: aragorn should drop to 190 points but go down to D4 base. And Aragorn strider should go down to 120 points but lose his might store Give him some usage!

[@justinfanter3620]

Horde = cringe tbh