Revisiting the Controversy of The Last of Us Part 2

[@nodnarb3540]

I’m only about 15 mins in to the video but I do have to respectfully disagree about Tommy’s decision to leave Ellie behind not making sense. It makes perfect sense. He knows what Joel sacrificed so Ellie could live, and he knows his brother would kick his ass if he knew he was knowingly bringing Ellie into such a dangerous situation. Not to mention, Tommy has grown to love Ellie, too. It’s his niece. Did he know Ellie would probably find a way to follow him? Yes. But that doesn’t make it nonsensical that he would refuse to be the one to invite her to join him in something so dangerous. He knows if Ellie dies, Joel died for nothing. Not to mention, he knows Joel wouldn’t want either of them going after Abby. Tommy might want to go against that, but it’s realistic he would at least want to do what he could to limit Ellie’s role in it.

[@uploadinstuff]

I dont think Tommy wouldve gone in the first place, he left joel in the first game because he believed Joel had gone off the tracks and that theyd lost all morality. So he joined a community. Once joel became a father again and worked for the community Tommy and he reunited. Why would Tommy abandon his family and community to kill some randos when hes already come to the conclusion that thats not the life he wants to live.

[@SourPatchPuss]

That’s why at the end of the game when Tommy was so upset that Ellie wouldn’t go after Abby, I was so confused. I honestly thought it was like a dream sequence or something. I immediately said Tommy wouldn’t want her to go! He would 100% want her to stay and focus on her family just like Joel would have wanted for her. Him going from begging Maria to lock her up so she didn’t get killed to being mad that she didn’t want to go on a suicide mission to find Abby is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot understand how the writers misunderstood their own characters so much!

[@Kmiller5515]

@@uploadinstuffwhat you detailed in why he originally left Joel and how he found a community and reunited with Joel is exactly why he would go. To him this group of people showed up just outside of his community and murdered his brother. So not only is it revenge for killing his brother, which in itself is not immoral, but the safety and security for his community could be at risk.

[@uploadinstuff]

​@@Kmiller5515 Except they werent and he knew it. It was a couple people who lived in Seattle 800 miles away. Its not about the morality, its that he wouldnt leave Maria and Ellie and everyone and risk death or capture (in which case he wouldnt be able to support his community or loved ones) in order to kill someone that killed someone close to him. Also at the end he knew it was personally motivated by abby and he wanted to go after abby to kill her. When he couldnt go he pressured ellie into going, knowing it would ruin her life. Both characters behaved that way so that Abby wouldnt seem so bad by comparison even though she did a thing the creators knew would be hard to swallow from the fans.

[@darthwyvvern]

I kinda concur. Your logic is sound but living in this world is dangerous. I think Tommy's lust for revenge fuckin got the better of him. And he wasn't thinking clearly at the time. I don't think he was tryna keep her safe, cause if that was the case he wouldn't have allowed Ellie to go on patrols and shit (had be been that over protective). I think he was pissed at Ellie for not leaving sooner.

[@NikNadd]

Ellie doesn’t ask why she’s never found anyone else who’s immune because she’s dumb or because the writing is bad, she asks it because the first thing Joel tells her when she wakes up is that there’s dozens of immune people. It’s his literal explanation from the first game as to why they left the firefly base.

[@dezbryantcaughtit5138]

Fax

[@rafaelnahafahik7781]

Exactly, she’s calling him out on the inconsistency and improbability of his argument, giving him the chance to come clean and admit it makes no sense.

[@PixelHeroViish]

Which is funny because the other immune people who reached the Fireflies are dead, something she didn't know but Joel might've, since it's in lore pick-ups

[@aaborelli]

Exactly, first thought that popped in my head. 20:00

[@fellowpassenger_54-67]

Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t those lore drops about other immune people removed in the later versions of the first game?

[@_zeroXD]

hmm, i don’t know. i think dina leaving ellie makes perfect sense. she gave ellie an ultimatum, “if you leave again, i’m gone”. and ellie leaving again shows that she valued revenge over her family.

[@GameOverloadMO]

Oh for sure, Dina leaving makes sense. Ellie breaking the cycle and losing everything as a result was where most take issue.

[@danielgonzalezjimenez5677]

​@@GameOverloadMO If you think about it, Ellie chose to pursue Abby again over her life with Dina and that's what made her leave the farm. All that chasing after Abby in Seattle brought to them was pain, so Ellie setting off again and Dina leaving her makes perfect sense, she has a son to look after and she wants nothing to do with Ellie's quest for vengeance anymore. Ellie loses everything because she kept choosing violence over peace. Dina has no way of knowing that once Ellie found Abby she would let her go, no way of knowing if after killing Abby someone was going to find their farm and get revenge on Ellie. Ellie gets punished despite letting go because she only let go at the very last second.

[@fhobbs4]

@@GameOverloadMO I would argue that the ending challenges you, as does much of the game. The ending does not have to be "satisfying", necessarily, it needs to be complete, and it needs to make sense. After all, it's not the ending so much that matters as it is the journey the characters went on. Ellie's primary character flaw was resolved - she realized that revenge was not going to heal her - and that is what the story was centered around. The fact that she "lost everything" is the point. She sacrificed everything that tethered her to humanity in pursuit of the satisfaction that revenge ultimately could never give her. The storytellers make this point exceptionally clear. You admit that Dina's choice to leave makes sense - then what else is there? You seem to say that Ellie is "punished" for "breaking the cycle", but I think that's missing the point. She ends up alone *because* of her choices, and she leaves the guitar to symbolize her growth, or the completion of this part of her journey. What's next is up to us to decide as viewers. She could go back to Jackson and find Dina, or she could embark on a journey to find a doctor and develop a cure, or any number of things. We don't know, but that is the point. Great storytellers do *not* make choices which cater to the feelings and desires of their audience. Rather, they make compelling choices that set their characters on exciting journeys. You admit many times to have been captivated by emotional scenes in the game, but then go on to criticize the game for "lazy" writing. I think that many of your points about plot convenience are unfair and misguided - you could say the same about any number of moments in the first game (or any storytelling really), but because you don't have a bias against that game, you forgive those conveniences or "contrivances" as you put them.

[@kryzer1754]

@@danielgonzalezjimenez5677that’s why it would have made more sense for Ellie to kill Abby. Ellie is left alone and unable to play the guitar as a consequence of archiving her revenge.

[@JustanotherNPC8454]

@@GameOverloadMO It's not Ellie breaking the cycle that causes her to lose everything. It's that she broke the cycle too late. That's why she lost everything.

[@jakefish3184]

i think i’m more upset that ellie can no longer play guitar than the fact she let abby live

[@Roland6733]

Yeah, that was the only thing that remained from Joel, and she lost it, she can no longer play the song that Joel has singed

[@J221.]

Just switch hands

[@Roland6733]

@@J221. True But it will take still a pretty long time

[@AA-hd4dy]

i think the message is that revenge in order to honor/avenge one’s memory ends up tarnishing it in the end

[@baileysv6793]

THIS! losing her fingers is the last tie she has to a method of honoring Joel’s memory. That’s what broke the cycle of violence imo.

[@grantcrawford745]

Tommy leaving Ellie in Jackson makes a lot of sense to me. He didn’t want something to happen to her while seeking revenge. And on top of that if he did bring her along and something bad happened to her, he didn’t want that on his conscience. Losing his brother and his brothers “daughter” (again), both bc he couldn’t protect them well enough might have been too much for him. Also he knew he could take care of himself. Was it stupid to go alone? Yes. But he was for sure putting in work with his sniper. Edit: I also want to add that with his state of mind and emotions at that moment, he likely wasn’t thinking rationally (which would have been go with Ellie so you can both take care of Abby. And you can have each others backs) he was likely thinking more emotionally, being that he couldn’t handle losing Ellie too

[@eddiecoxz8017]

Right, it's in character for him. If you look at his behavior in the first game

[@nox10182]

I 100% agree, because Joel’s death is caused from the hospital massacre. Basically the reason Joel did what he did was to save/protect Ellie. If anything bad happened to Ellie if Tommy brought her with him, he would never be able to live with that. I really believe that this guy was hating on a lot of parts of the game for no reason as he claimed was just the writers were basically being lazy. Most of all the things he disliked actually made sense to have in the game, but that’s my opinion.

[@TahoeNevada]

Well, Tommy does tell Maria to lock up Ellie so she doesn’t follow Tommy. He went in her stead in order to keep her safe. Makes sense to me. 🤷‍♂️

[@Jay-ph7ni]

It wasn’t how much Joel meant to Ellie as he said, it’s how much Ellie meant to Joel which directed Tommy’s actions

[@TheTcarr842]

@@Jay-ph7niEXACTLY.

[@uploadinstuff]

@@Jay-ph7ni So whyd he make ellie go hunt her down at the end when he wasnt able to​? Oopsie.

[@The1andonlysharpshooter]

I just need someone to explain to me why he felt the need to convince ellie to kill abby. I personally can’t make sense of it and I’ve given up trying.

[@lazarruzic5670]

@@The1andonlysharpshooterTommy first lost his big brother right in front of him, then went on a revenge quest where he failed to eliminate the prime target and lost Jesse in that same process, barely survived, became crippled where he cant walk properly, he cant see with his right eye so he cant use his sniper skills anymore, then when they got back to Jackson Ellie swore to him that SHE would make Abby pay because Tommy can not. And on top of all that he and Maria broke up. That man has nothing left, he is a shell of himself

[@derekcampbell4209]

I never understood why Joel explained himself to Ellie while leaving out so many details at Salt Lake hospital. Like the fireflies took an unconscious Ellie and were ready to kill her to make this vaccine. Kinda silly because 20 years had gone by. What’s another day to wait before scrambling her brains? They also attacked Joel, a man who was performing cpr on a child. I get that they had to make conflict for the first games ending. But Ellie is a child and despite her potentially wanting to sacrifice herself, she is too young to make that choice, and the fireflies screwed up any possibility of making a vaccine due to their haste. I just think Joel should’ve explained himself further. Yes he lied, and it’s bad. But it’s not like Ellie was consenting and the fireflies handled this responsibly. “Oh my! The child is here! Quickly before she wakes up, prep for surgery! Right away! Let’s not do any tests or ANYTHING! We’ve waited 20 years for this chance, let’s rush into it blindly for no reason!”

[@tmac326]

Joel didn’t fully explain or go into detail because 1, it wouldn’t flow well narratively and I’m sure Neil would say it would have ruined the pacing (even though the games pacing is already pretty bad), 2, it makes it so the writers have plausible deniability to make Joel out to be the person in the wrong and so Ellie is more justified in her choice to cut off her relationship with him. Then 3, it creates more drama in the story so when it’s finally revealed that the two did make up and were going to try to repair their relationship, it’s more of a surprise. Realistically though, anyone would go into detail and explain the entire situation to Ellie for sure.

[@derekcampbell4209]

You make some Good points. I also think about how in that moment, Joel had FINALLY been caught in his lie. And I’m sure we’ve all Had moments in life when a little fib or lie or anything really got exposed about us or caught about something. And me personally I’ve been so razzled that I couldn’t speak. Like my brains going 1000 miles a second. So maybe Joel was experiencing that. Like having this huge confrontation with Ellie, getting the truth exposed must’ve been hard for him to speak in that moment. Idk I need to rewatch that scene. But yeah.

[@skunkworksu7638]

Great point. Abbys dad killed amungst a massacre of her friends . Possibly the only man able to make a Vax to save the world. It's a game of sides .

[@tmac326]

@@derekcampbell4209 Ultimately, why the characters make the choices they do in the story all comes down to what story the writers and Neil Druckmann wanted to tell. The narrative choices made all were made for the express purpose of where they wanted the story to conclude even if the choices that characters make, the plot armour, the lack of detail Joel went into about what happened with the Fireflies and so on and so forth is all done to surprise Ellie and the audience by the end of the game, even though Ellie should logically already know her and Joel made up. I suppose you could say her anger and rage drove her to push that to the back of her mind and thats completely fair but whats not fair is for her to forget about the scene of her and Joel making up until like (I can't recall the amount of time exactly) 6 months after the fact. Most of my issues with the game stem from the fact that it was overly ambitious and tried to juggle too much rather than just focus on the core of what The Last of Us is, and even Neil knows what that is because he created it and talked about it in interviews and thats Joel and Ellies connection and relationship. So by making a game that isn't really about that (the stuff with that is the best part of the game) it doesn't feel like TLOU and suffers from bad writing that feels like a first draft.

[@timothygriffith2740]

100%!!! The Ellie finding out the truth scene is so terribly written and is another example of the game conveniently having the characters make dumb decisions or leave out crucial information. There is absolutely no reason why Joel shouldn't have told Ellie exactly what happened. "Ellie they attacked us. They kidnapped us. When they woke me up they held me a gun point and told me I couldn't see you and that I just had to leave you behind to die. They had you for HOURS, and decided they were going to kill you. You couldn't ask them questions or do more tests because they wouldn't let you, so I stopped them". THAT is what happened. But nope, joel conveniently has to describe it in a way that leaves out crucial information and makes HIM look like the bad guy. It's so dumb

[@joelmiller5446]

When you realise if Ellie just stayed with Dina and JJ, Abby would have died on that beach

[@terrahawk1977]

Better option than that train wreck of an ending we did get

[@josephpmorganDA]

​@@terrahawk1977 Great ending 10/10 😂

[@terrahawk1977]

@@josephpmorganDA that's Yr opinion and I'm pleased for you. Me i hated it in the leaks and it was worse in gameplay that's my opinion. And my opinion has nothing to with Joel as I agreed with that

[@josephpmorganDA]

@terrahawk1977 that was my sarcasm bro, I understand your grief.

[@terrahawk1977]

@@josephpmorganDA grief which is as I said I agreed with Joel’s death so what’s the grief

[@itsyaboi527]

Something I noticed on my second play through was the correlation between Ellie and a character that Dina talks about called "Eugene" Eugene joined the firefly's when he is a younger man and that's where he met Tommy and ended up in Jackson .A note from his ex wife that you can find in his bunker shows her begging him to come home to her and her daughter, telling Eugene to leave the firefly's, to let someone else save the world, let someone else get revenge on FEDRA, to pick family over revenge and war. But Eugene didn't, he left with the firefly's, left his family behind, and it seems like he never saw them again, and Dina comments on how lonely Eugene was for the remainder for his life before he had a stroke and died. In the end, Ellie also choice revenge over family, left her partner and child behind, and in the end lost everyone she loved and became very lonely. I don't know if this was an intended idea put into the game or if I'm reading to much into it, but I thought it was interesting.

[@mrnickcuellar]

I've never thought about that and it makes sense, doesn't ellie say that she wants to go out like Eugene?

[@alouramusic]

@@mrnickcuellar oh my God she does

[@SasoAkasuna]

​@@mrnickcuellarshe does! She meant from old age but now it feels like foreshadowing 😭

[@shayaneshghi467]

Of course it was intentional smh

[@Goku_Black1.1]

Sure but Eugene was a 𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴 and as far as we know Ellie is not.

[@satty.s5083]

Tommy leaving Ellie behind does kinds make sense to me. If Ellie died going out to avenge Joel, then everything Joel did since meeting Ellie was for nothing. All the fireflies he killed (Tommy was a firefly once too) and all of the emotional progress to becoming a better person Joel made as a result of taking care of Ellie would be gone in the wind. He didn't want to risk that and so instead, he went himself.

[@anitahaze]

I have yet to play either games. I've watched others playthroughs/cutscenes. But...my inital reasoning for Ellie putting the knife to Levs' throat was to in a sense antagonize Abby to engage in fighting her, giving Ellie a reason to to go though with it.

[@DariusFrench6273]

Similar to Abby when she and the others found Joel, she didn’t really have a plan in place. And even then at that moment, she’s doubting her decisions but to her, she needed that quick fix. Note how Ellie also says “I CAN’T let you leave” rather than “I WON’T”

[@Welcome2Niches]

@@DariusFrench6273 yes this! She is so blinded by her revenge. She has convinced herself that she CANT go on unless she avenges Joel

[@gaydolfbitler]

​@@DariusFrench6273she knows revenge is silly but she thinks its the only thing to help her get over joel. In my opinion thats the only reason she does the latter part of the game.

[@jeronimo196]

@@Welcome2Niches it only took killing a hundred people, but Ellie finally learned how to forgive - and that's the important part.

[@Welcome2Niches]

@@jeronimo196 🤣we don't talk about those. It's about the friends we made (and lost), and lessons learned...not about the hundreds of innocents we slaughtered along the way. 😉 All jokes aside, the game teaches that those people aren't just nobodies, though. A huge part of the plot of part 2 is about consequences for those "side characters" we killed in the 1st game. Just like those characters, the people we are playing as are part of this rich, deep world with thousands of other stories going on at the same time. That's what makes me love TLOU 2 even more, that it ATTEMPTS to address exactly what we're joking about above. That said , it is a game that MUST be entertaining at the same time. There are inconcistencies in the themes the game seeks to discuss and the actions we take that aren't addressed (every time) along the way. IT's just a nature of this being an action game; it doesn't make the larger themes and broader discussions the game evokes all moot. On that note, we're probably gonna get attacked by some Rattler groupie in part 3 in a way that will rock us to our core lol.

[@noahkersey5382]

i still maintain that it would have been better pacing to START with Abby’s story up until she gets to the theater AND THEN swapping to Ellie’s story from the beginning. it would’ve made people a lot more sympathetic towards abby, and the shock of seeing the girl you just spent the first half of the story playing as murdering Joel would have been mind blowing

[@theogofguitar]

Starting day 1 beginning with Abby without the intro of even knowing Joel is dead…if we pick up from Abby day 1, then watch her into day 3. Then we cut to Ellie day 1..Jackson prologue comes at the end of day 3 after she kills Owen..that would be a tough sell but would also maybe play better. We would never know what and how Joel dies, maybe we know he does and eventually we know Abby does by the end of her day 3, but we cut right into Ellie and now we never had to sympathize with Abby, we are fresh on confusion and maybe rage with Ellie. We still don’t see Joel’s death full until the death scene which becomes a flashback, much like the other 2 Joel flashbacks. The farm and Santa Barbara can play out the same but it makes you really wonder if they changed out the order of play, not trying to make you sympathetic but instead made you go in full blind for a long time, not even knowing what either motive was for Abby or Ellie until later….I think it may have worked better. Or not because wtf am I to restructure a huge story but it’s interesting to think the story we have presented in a different order

[@65firered]

It wouldn't fix everything but it is a significant improvement for pacing.

[@KidAstronaut]

I would’ve been pissed if I spent the first half of the game not playing as Ellie

[@samniel]

I've been saying something similar, that we needed to spend more time sympathizing with Abby BEFORE Joel's murder, even moving her Day 1 prologue nightmare of finding Jerry in the hospital would have helped the audience understand her character. But listening to the podcast and director commentary, it seemed like ND wanted to make the audience hate her character, and see if they could manage to understand her later. They completely succeeded in the first part, and with the second for many players, but obviously that didn't work for everyone.

[@65firered]

@@samniel They focused too much on trying to get a reaction. It backfired for a lot of people, took them out of the game, and made them completely disconnected from it, and not interested or invested in the story. Because even though people understood the character and her motivations, they didn't care and were more interested in laughing at the game than caring about the story. It's a major failure in terms of not just execution but setup. When people would rather pause the game and start ripping it apart and critiquing every flaw in the story or just no longer care and just play for the sake of it, you have failed in creating investment and interest. Trying to make people hate a character first will often result in a lack of investment in that character and the story as a whole as we have seen with this game. That was one major mistake, the game makes others just as bad.

[@airborngrmp1]

As much as I disliked the gaps in the story-telling - I thought it lent a palpable sense of realism to the characters' journeys. People do dumb things when they shouldn't. They trust people they shouldn't, when they shouldn't, and often do foolish things trying to protect loved ones - which backfire. This should be expected, not the exception. Tommy leaving early and trying to spare Ellie the pain of revenge (whether you get revenge or not, there's always pain) makes sense from a human perspective. Joel trusting strangers he shouldn't - while in extremis - makes sense from a human perspective. Dina being more worried about her friend/lover's mental state and feelings more than she should have been about her baby makes sense from a human perspective. All of these things, coupled with the randomness of the depopulated world allowing people to cross paths unexpectedly, are things that could happen in real life - history is littered with such examples of being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. All of theses 'wrong' decisions by our characters feel very believable from a human perspective.

[@THEONETRUEOVERLORD]

Saying “people do dumb things in real life” doesn’t excuse bad writing. Joel standing in the middle of the room with people with guns is just bad writing because he would NEVER do that.

[@ParzivalTheThird]

Very well said

[@GabeKanae]

@@THEONETRUEOVERLORDIt isn’t lessening the blame and being an excuse, it’s an actual reason. Trauma and grief has different unique responses and reactions for everyone. The writing showcases that. It isn’t an excuse to poor writing, it’s a valid defense and reasoning as to why the characters made the actions they chose.

[@Road_to_Dawn]

Humans are illogical creatures.

[@ian7064]

I disagree that Ellie making the right choice by sparing Abby was "rewarded" by losing Dina and JJ. She lost them by making the wrong choice to pursue Abby instead of letting it go. Sparing her was Ellie finally learning her lesson

[@BahamutBreaker]

Absolutely. You get it. What you just wrote is pretty much exactly what the story’s writers were going for - they explicitly said as much during the cutscene commentaries during a playthrough of the Remastered game.

[@jhulgan85]

It makes no sense as a story. She cuts down everyone to get to Abby to have a fist fight, finally gets her where she’s wanted her for so long, and in a moment of reflection, says “na, never mind” (btw knows nothing of her back story, she’s just some random ass firefly to her). It’s nonsense.

[@tristin5668]

​@@jhulgan85by doing this whole "what's one more death?" thing, you're reaching the same conclusion that Ellie reaches on the beach: there's no real good reason for Ellie to kill Abby. Ellie isn't even doing it for Joel anymore, and it won't bring her any peace of mind. If the only justification you can think of is "well I've done this thing for so long so I can't stop now," then ironically, you've reached the point where you need to stop and walk away. Ellie walked away and has a chance to just go about life on her terms, which she hasn't been able to do until now.

[@jhulgan85]

@@tristin5668 They did little to show Ellie struggling with the idea of killing Abby up to that point.

[@mr.channel6467]

Her gay lesson 😂

[@Aaron09_]

Fun fact the diary entry that is seen at 44:45 on the right side is the lyrics of a song called "The Guardian" by Shawn James :)

[@loganmapes2307]

JJ is Jessie Joel not Jessie Jr. per Neil

[@march.7561]

That's nice to know actually

[@miller-joel]

Why would Dina name her child "Joel"?

[@loganmapes2307]

@@miller-joel why the fuck wouldn’t she? Because it’s in memory of the passing of her significant others “father” people use commemorative names all the time

[@miller-joel]

@@loganmapes2307 Uh...because she didn't have any connection to Joel? Duh.

[@loganmapes2307]

@@miller-joel you’re an idiot.

[@Hope_Beyond]

I would point out during Abbys first section before she meets jole during the snow storm she finds their tracs and follows them so I kinda do nto get how it is contrived to think some one hunting some one would find them when they leave tracks.

[@bort118]

Yeah, she's specifically looking for them and following tracks. I think maybe they could have fixed this by having one of Abbys crew find one of the notes that the Jackson patrols leave in their towers, documenting their patrols. They then learn that Joel is likely to be patrolling near the ski resort area? It's a bit contrived as-is, but it's not particularly bad.

[@skywalkerorder2839]

@@bort118 Actually Owen pointed her in the direction of the outpost they went to, it's why when she found those tracks she was gonna follow them. I really feel like the horde made things contrived quite a bit when they didn't need to be.

[@Kira_Official_]

1. Well, for one, how could she have known they were specifically Joel's tracks? Joel and Tommy weren't the only one that went out on patrol. Many number of people did. 2. It's kinda difficult to continue following tracks when you're getting chased by a massive horde of infected! She was being chased by many infected and was running in a random direction to get away. She just so happens to be going the direction of Joel's path. How is that not contrived?

[@skywalkerorder2839]

@@Kira_Official_ She didn’t she was just following them to see where they led and if Joel and Tommy might be in the patrol that’s heading to a outpost in the general direction she was heading in. Yes, that’s the issue I have with it, it is still quite a bit contrived and would be one of the bigger problems if the existence of the horde and their migration wasn’t explained in Ellie Day 2.

[@SomeoneDriving878]

True, contrivances really never bother me, but there are other things about this story that I hate.

[@FlowersforCapitu]

I think my issue with the game comes down to rhe whole "ending the cycle of revenge" point just not working for me. The amount of people Ellie and Abby kill along the journey and I'm supposed to think that the cycle is over because Ellie spared the person she actually wants to kill? Who can tell me that the next game the child of another random npc (that's what the doctor was in the first game, pretty much) won't show up to kill either Ellie or Abby as revenge? Idk, it was just a bit too much for me to believe. It's a story that I don't think fits an action game. It will work better in the series for sure. ETA: I do like the game guys, I just didn't enjoy the story all that much but that's fine, the game was still pretty solid for me

[@oneyplayes465]

exactly so!

[@isabella_annamarie]

I completely agree. The theme of the cycle of revenge and empathy is so overdone in all mediums, and I never got why they thought that's such a strong selling point with this particular story/sequel. As if it hasn't been done before? It left it empty, by the ending because of it 😢

[@oneyplayes465]

@@isabella_annamarie but the fans of the game don't want to hear this because they exert that the story was more nuance than that. Like what nuance? It's the same story with different characters, but what differs here is that the characters don't have this profound effect on many of us. These characters were written in a way to force an empathic bond with the audience, but in the end the message overstayed its welcome, and you are left with a complete waste of money and time for an experience done much better elsewhere.

[@richardmoskalyov8503]

Imagine if that WLF girl playing a PSP had a boyfriend, and came to find ellie for revenge

[@mrrobluxo2369]

It’s also not believable for a setting like this

[@Deadpool-ed9or]

Everyone criticizing these game for story, writing, execution etc. But the one thing which no one criticize is the music. Like man its too damnnn GOOOD. Like i dont think that anyone who had played or watch this game being played have anything to criticize its music. Gustavo Santaolalla respect 🫡🫡🫡

[@gaia7240]

Just those few notes with the guitar of the trailer gives me goosebumps

[@callamastia]

they never pointed out how the good doctor and his people wanted to dissect the child’s brain without her consent for a _chance_ at a cure cuz it’d throw a wrench into their whole moral compass thing.

[@sarahm3674]

everyone knows that lol, the implication here is that even if it’s just a chance it could save the entire freaking world

[@callamastia]

@@sarahm3674 even for a chance they should still get consent

[@brafshsyt]

and that there is absolutely no guarantee that they know how to make a cure

[@xSavedSoulx]

The issue is that even if a cure were discovered, it's too late. The world has plunged into darkness, and many people have turned greedy, likely to exploit it for power over others. Joel probably foresaw this before his hospital rampage.

[@SasoAkasuna]

​@@brafshsyt this, but also I saw another video that talked about how okay, let's say they make the vaccine, it works, it's perfect... Now what? Like how are they going to organize the distribution, cause I don't think it would be easy or fair tbh

[@SheridonHackland]

Great video but… you said it was bad writing that Ellie asks why she’s never met another immune. In the first game, Joel told her that there were dozens of others like her. I think her asking Joel that, was supposed to be rhetorical

[@GameOverloadMO]

I didn't say it was bad writing. I said many people say it is, but I disagree with them.

[@Erborne1979]

They need to do a DLC that shows Tommy's 3 days in Seattle (kinda like Left Behind in Part 1) I was so disappointed when they made Part 2 for PS5 and it didn't have it

[@raylessneptune451]

Oh man, I’d love to play Tommy sniping at Abby on the bridge. While they successfully made me empathize with Abby to an extent, I hated Manny the whole time. He spit on a dead man just to add more disrespect, like was taking his life not enough? Him dying was my favorite scene when playing as Abby, so I’d love to pull the trigger on that bastard myself.

[@GerryLo5198]

We needed to see that. We see how devastated and torn Ellie was throughout her time in Seattle. But no one ever thinks about Tommy. How was Tommy feeling? Was he thinking about his brother and the good old days before the outbreak, and Sara. How far they had come as survivors and their journey to Jackson. Tommy needed more love man. We could have literally seen some pre outbreak flashbacks with Tommy and Joel or something along those lines, give Troy Baker a reason to bring that character back.

[@Welcome2Niches]

@@GerryLo5198 it would be cool to experience that but its unecessary by the end of the game. We know what it meant to Tommy. He left everything to. We also see what its done to him and what Ellie has to look forward to if she cant move past it.

[@troytheboy1985]

@@Welcome2Niches the game has a bunch of fluff so why not add a little bit more

[@seraphitella2466]

i think they’re doing that in the tv show adaptation

[@feartrain1282]

Quick correction for the Epilogue when Ellie returns to the abandoned farmhouse. It’s subtle & easily missable, but the scene starts where u can see Ellie wearing Dina’s bracelet. Signifying that she already has returned to Jackson and to JJ& Dina. She’s basically leaving the guitar behind to move on. So it’s not as bleak as most would think. But great analysis, I enjoyed this video & gave me even more perspective on the game as a whole. So thank you

[@abbsence]

About Joel supposedly not being careful enough with the salt lake crew. While i think being safe in Jackson for 4 years definitely plays into it, its not the entire explanation. If you look at that scene carefully you can notice that pretty much the whole time tommy is taking lead. He is almost always running in front, he Introduces them first, tells the where to go, and Joel waits for Tommy's confirmation before going back to Abby's crew. When they get there, Tommy is the one who is initially warm towards them, asking how they're doing, asking for supplies for their horses, introducing Joel again, and even inviting them back to Jackson. This all makes sense for Tommy's character, he acts based on honor, wants to help people and overall acts as a hero. the only things joel actually says here is telling them they will leave as soon as they can and questioning why they are in the area, both things that could come from a place of suspicion of them. And so, when Joel is shot the first thing he does is get angry at Tommy. i think that it is heavily implied in this sequence that Joel has become more dependant on Tommy as he ages.

[@Wheatly_Labs]

The whole “you killed my father” revenge plot would have helped me like Abby more if she didn’t torture Joel for multiple hours before killing him, that lost any hope I had for ever liking Abby.

[@seraphitella2466]

Ellie also tortured Nora, but because it’s a character you do not care for, it’s okay? You don’t have to like Abby, the game only wants you to understand her perspective I believe, but throughout the game you can clearly see how she struggles with what she did to Joel. Right after killing him, she doesn’t look relieved as she’d expected. Then in her 3 seattle days, you see her continuously have nightmares about her father still - because she knows killing Joel didn’t fix anything. It is only when she finds a new purpose in life (Yara & Lev) that she starts to move on from her trauma

[@MaykonDourado]

​@@seraphitella2466 Ellie tortured Nora and was given a bad ending by the devs Abby tortured joel and was given the happy ending by the devs Thats another reason people hate this game, despite them doing the same thing, the npc that caused this entire game to happen gets the good ending, meanwhile the character that we actually cared about gets the bad one

[@TheManiacc45]

If someone killed your dad or someone you cared for greatly and they were in front of you not remorseful at all, you would probably do the exact same thing. I think that’s what a lot of people miss

[@Cocojonut-fp8ek]

​@@MaykonDourado didnt she lose like all her friends?

[@cuppedcup]

@@Cocojonut-fp8ek yeah, these people hate the story so much that they suddenly 'forget' things like that so it seems worse. Not to mention the genuine not just mental torture Abby endured on that pole. Doesn't seem happy to me in the slightest

[@richardcarson3596]

In the commentary for the game Neil mentions the trailer lie was a mistake and that he regrets doing it. Also, your video was unlucky to come out a few days before the Grounded II documentary about the making of the game.

[@GameOverloadMO]

After watching Grounded II, I don’t think a great deal has changed for me to be honest. Maybe more understanding of the decision behind why they went for this kind of story, but that’s probably it.

[@toead4186]

Knowing what happens in the game makes the original teaser trailer feel so haunting.

[@icantread1058]

My girlfriend really likes the last of us season 1 and i am not ready for her to find out what happens in the second game

[@SamSeolas]

pedro pascal is always getting his head bashed in some ways LOL

[@sandr921]

It won’t be written as bad in the show probably

[@gaia7240]

@@sandr921 mmmh, I doubt it, the writers insist they did a great job with the game

[@shayaneshghi467]

Don't watch it then; what's the problem?

[@haydencarn8737]

Just leave it at the first season, the second one is like a pretentious hyper depressing misery p0rn story, at least if they stay true to the game. Nothing worth watching.

[@Jlopezocasio]

When I got to Abby’s mission about looking for the Fireflies with Lev I was incredibly frustrated by one of the lines. The line was “You’re always helpful.” After I heard that I knew that the writers thought Abby was done with her character progression and that her story was concluded. The last thing that happens to move her character progression was having Mel tell her that she’s a piece of shit and having Abby cry over it before Yarah tells her she is not which Abby then denies because she knows it’s true. On the island the only thing that changes about her is that her motivation for helping Lev is solidified when she sees Lev who lost his family and sees how it nearly breaks him before she snaps him back and states that he is her people and that’s apparently it. This doesn’t work for me at all as she doesn’t do much. She just accepts that in general her actions are bad. To me this character is nearly irredeemable and I say that while thinking that killing Joel is one of her more justifiable actions. On the first mission you have with her she has 2 conversations that make her and to an extent Manny horrible people to me (there’s also that “good” scene with Dina). The first one is with Mel in which she asks Abby how she feels about killing Joel and how she feels about killing seraphite children. For the first one she simply states that she can’t believe how awful Joel’s actions were and made it sound like she would gladly have beaten him down for longer (but that last bit is just my interpretation). That tells me that even trying to see anything wrong in her actions is alien to her. Her answer to the second question has her saying that the blood of children she kills is on their hands because even if being there is not their fault it’s not hers either which is awful. The conversation with Manny is simply about how they would love to torture prisoners more and I think Manny also compliments something about her torture or her killing but maybe that’s in a different conversation. These just show me how awful Abby is on the regular and she doesn’t ever think of questioning it. With the lack of the conclusion to her redemption I think this game should’ve gone one of two ways. The first is to have Abby knowing that she’s awful and beg for her life only so that she can keep Lev’s life from spiraling the way hers did. Everyone in these games is very traumatized but Lev’s trauma occurred in a way that would easily lead to self-loathing and giving up as he has no one to rely on while being a child and the deaths of his mom and sister can easily blamed on himself for shaving and going back to the island. Abby is the last person he has left and if Ellie took her life Lev wouldn’t last long nor would he go with Ellie either. The second is to give the story a small theme revolving around excuses and self delusions. The seraphites have a religion that has no violence and people still follow it while being in a war and while making a kid their apostate which must be killed. At this point the religion is just something they use to put their faith into and something they change to moralize their actions. In the same way that Abby uses weird loops of logic like “it doesn’t matter if it’s not the kids’ fault because it’s not mine either”. The same way that Ellie sees through Joel’s attempts to distance himself from her in the first game Lev should see through Abby’s excuses and make her see that everyone is accountable for their actions. This could lead to an end to Abby’s redemption in which she can actually apologize for all of her actions even those not related to Ellie. It could also lead to Ellie’s redemption if he makes her see that revenge isn’t good and begs her not to fall into the habit of using the same delusions everyone else does. Either way I don’t think this game should have a final boss with Abby and it especially shouldn’t have a conclusion in which the characters DON’T TALK! With the intentions, mannerisms, and information Ellie goes to Abby with in the ending, killing her would align with the actions of a SAINT. She also enters the beach saying “Abbyabbyabbyabby” like a horror movie villain. With a line like “we left you live and you wasted it” killing both Abby and Lev would seem like things Ellie would find as reasonable at this point (even if she might puke about Lev afterwards). This is also the only point in which the circle of revenge would end as neither of them have any friends left to go after Ellie. Something needed to happen to keep her from killing them. She is also injured and tired so it doesn't make sense for her to want a fist fight. The only thing Abby or Lev should be able to do at this point is beg. IDK why you think Ellie wouldn't threaten Lev as the number of people you kill in this game is huge and Lev is a kid who is used to war and gun fighting. A bunch of Ellie's kills aren't even necessary either like the rattler she had on the floor. Ellie is a full blown murderer at this point. I also don't think Mel is a bad person as the only fighting we see her do is because of a surprise horse attack and beside that she only does safe medical work. When held at gun point she doesn’t seem to do well under pressure either which makes me think she doesn’t get involved in too much combat and only wants to help through being a medic. Owen seems like a worse person to me as when they’re held at gun point he does know what’s going on and says that answering Ellie’s question will get them killed and when Mel is about to do that he stops her only to save Abby and never says anything to save Mel like saying she’s pregnant or that she’s just a medic. This is even though Mel is the one who believes Owen, wants to accompany him to find the fireflies, and HOLDS HIS CHILD instead of calling him stupid. Lastly, from someone who often misses the point of certain things the last memory had me laughing my ass off. Ellie wants to forgive Joel and he’s all like “I don’t think that’s the right word because if the lord gave me a second chance at that day I would do it all over again”. I knew that wasn’t the point but it made that my favorite scene in either game.

[@keyser5555]

I would like to point out a little flaw about this whole revenge story- the vast trail of dead bodies Abby and Ellie leave behind... well, im sure they have family and friends too, who also might be upset by losing their loved ones

[@firefly.png01]

honestly, i think that applies to the idea of revenge. those people, while unnamed, probably had people they cared about and people that cared for them. it shows how revenge is never black and white nor does it only ever involve the people wanting/escaping revenge. it’s a cycle and we only saw ellie break it

[@isaiahschmit1996]

Also the fact that revenge cycle is broken when you just kill the avenger. Its philosophy is about as deep as a puddle. Just like the batman not killing people quote "KIll a murderer, and the number of murderers stay the same" Then kill two murderers dumbass lol.

[@jengooo112]

And if you listen to director's commentary, Neil Druckmann points out quite a lot that Ellie becomes ruthless and kills without thinking. And that was a big point they made in TLOU2. Ellie's search for revenge takes away all her humanity, so she doesn't care how long the trail of bodies are, all she wants is revenge. Same goes for Abby until she meets Lev.

[@jackolohan3654]

I don't understand why people get so hung up on Joel and Tommy entering the lodge with Abby. They are caught in a blizzard and there is a massive horde of infected hunting them down. Joel and Tommy are on guard, but are caught in a desperate situation and had no choice. Their choice was get torn apart by infected or take refuge with strangers. It makes perfect sense.

[@kokushibo1014]

I think people are more upset that they're actually not on guard and gives their names right away, trusting this unknown group

[@jackolohan3654]

@@kokushibo1014 They were on guard, they didn't take the saddles off the horses which suggests they were going to leave as soon as they had the chance. Giving their first names isn't that big of a deal either. It was just insanely bad luck that this group were looking for a Joel and knew he had a brother named Tommy which gave away their identities. In the final scene with Joel talking to Ellie, he comments on how he traded with some people for coffee, so they do interact with outsiders. Look at it like this, Jackson clearly has a large community, it is totally implausible to suspect every citizen has been vetted to check whether they have a vendetta against another resident. Also, the context of them "trusting" the group isn't that odd. Even if they were hostile, they just saved Abby which would make most people indebted to them. Again, it was just insanely bad luck that this group had a vendetta against Joel.

[@TotalFiction18]

​@@jackolohan3654You can also say that Joel would've been distracted that morning by the thought of finally being able to make up with Ellie due to the last night's conversation. No matter how battle-hardened a survivor is, we're all stil human, and we make mistakes. Joel wasn't invincible. And like you said, they had incredibly bad luck in that scenario.

[@braden7514]

I'll keep it real and say that while I disagree with a lot of the criticisms against the writing of the game, I genuinely love the story through and through and it's one of the most impressive I've ever seen across any medium but TBH it's my favourite game of all time, so there may be some bias. With that said though, this was a really well made video and I really appreciate that you're bringing a lot more to the stage than the typical criticisms this game gets. Awesome video, was very surprised to see you have under 5K subs.

[@gaia7240]

Can I ask you why and if you read much?

[@k7j007]

It makes perfect sense why Tommy left Ellie behind. Joel murdered all those people to save Ellie, and he died for it. Joel gave his life to make sure Ellie would live. Tommy didn't want to risk the life of Ellie. If Tommy let Ellie go out and get killed, then Joel died for nothing. Tommy made it his responsibility to do his best to make sure Ellie survived for Joel.

[@FrostyDLR]

My biggest issue with the theme and message of the story is the environment of the world. You’re in a post apocalyptic world, filled with not only infected zombies, but gangs of savage people doing anything to survive and literally militias. Your in a world were you’ve witnessed your closest friends and families die, and you’ve been forced to do some of the most messed up stuffs. What’s to stop some randoms ass Npc that Abby or any other character killed from coming back and continuing this “cycle of revenge” that the game so desperately wants to villanize. I don’t think this was the game for this message

[@nirvana_helm]

a random ass npc can't come up to take "revenge" cuz they wouldn't be from a big group& instead have to worry but protecting them in this stupid world everyday. Abby or Ellie were able to do that cuz there were in a position of some power like fireflies, military, wfg etc.

[@blipsauce1143]

Exactly. A universe such as the last of us can only have so much room for morality in its cycle of writing

[@neishawnjohnson7602]

Thank You!!!! I've said this many times. A world like this where there will always be violence because it's a post apocalyptic world where infected roam and people are out for themselves isn't a good place for this kind of themes. This was a story that didn't need to be told.

[@Batch00]

This is mostly spot-on! The first game shows us, in no uncertain terms, that violence is a terrible but mandatory way for people to survive in this world. The game basically screams this at you for the entire runtime! Joel's propensity for violence, and apathy towards his victims, is why he lasted as long as he did and why he was the perfect protector/father figure for Ellie to survive in this world. There are so many situations where they are forced into kill-or-be-killed scenarios just because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. The alternative, being a pacifist, just means torture, death or infection for you or your companions. What were they meant to do when ambushed in Pittsburgh? Just surrender? They'd be dead in seconds! If you're paying attention, Part 1 already talked about the violence! It showed the consequences of killing during the winter chapters, and was handled with so much more nuance. It didn't force a moral judgement, it let you decide for yourself whether Joel and Ellie's actions were justified or not. To tag a dogmatically moralistic "cycle of violence" theme onto a world this brutal and unforgiving is a ridiculous misunderstanding of the universe and characters they themselves created.

[@FrostyDLR]

@@Batch00 You put this better into words then I ever could!! I don’t even mind that they killed Joel, I just feel like his death and the writing of the game could be executed way better

[@thiseas_tsk]

Well, I know that a lot of people are gonna disagree with me on this one but it is okay and I believe that this is the beauty of this hobby. First of all, very nicely structured video! Now on the matter at hand, I really don't believe that Joel's death has bad writing. First of all, it is established that Joel and Tommy have nowhere to go to escape the hoard's attack and Abby gives them the only solution that seems like a viable option. From there it is really Tommy the one that introduces him and Joel while Joel doesn't even talk that much. Additionally, I believe that Joel really wished to change for the better after the end of the fisrt game and that meant getting "softer" and more easy-going and trustful towards other people, with these changes on his character tragically leading to his death, showing us once again that this world is really brutal towards the kind hearted. I also believe that his death happening so early in the game is a great choice, able to let us feel how Ellie also thinks that it is too early for her to loose Joeal, especially after she decided that she wants to forgive him.

[@MsYunaFires]

Abby never shows enough emotional depth. Ellie's bloodied hand shaking after her cruelest act, how she reacts to killing Mel... Abby doesn't ever show regret or remorse for killing *anyone*. That's not a "strong character" but a total psychopath.

[@Malaestro]

How is she a psychopath? She clearly loves people, she risks her life for others, she loves her dad, etc. She even spared Ellie twice and a psychopath would have acted pragmatically. words have a meaning. Also Abby is ruthless because she is a Joel parallel, she’s cold hearted then her ice melts because of her relationship with someone else. Ellie on the other hand is warm hearted, nearly loses it and has to regain herself. Also Ellie’s kills are way more brutal - she kills a pregnant woman without realising it, beats someone to death with a pipe, etc. Abby’s are clean, a few gunshots. The exception is Joel and she is clearly damaged by killing Joel and has some flashbacks of her own and trauma connected to her father’s murder also.

[@MsYunaFires]

@@Malaestro Abby only saves Lev & Yara because her dreams are messed up. She literally says that to Yara when they're picking out a gift for Lev. She doesn't care about them, only doing what makes her feel good bout herself. Ellie killed Mel in self defense. Notice how she reacted when she discoverered her pregnancy. Contrast that with Abby about to kill Dina. The only reason she stopped is because of Lev. No other reason. Lev is problematic too. He's sticking around Abby because, honestly, what choice does he have at that point? His whole tribe is dead, he has no one else. That's not the Joel/Ellie contrast they so desperately want to portray, that's literally just trauma bonding.

[@Malaestro]

@@MsYunaFires What Abby says and what she means are often discordant, especially with them. You're telling me she feels nothing for them outside of needing to release herself from trauma? She clearly cares for them and risks a lot for them. With Lev she literally only fights Ellie when his life is threatened. Lev clearly has affection for Abby. Ellie is hanging with Joel out of necessity too initially, and vice versa, but things develop. You forget we had literally an entire game to flesh out the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and there were less sub plots to complicate the development of that relationship.

[@crazyinsane500]

@@Malaestro No, in most stories the writer is competent enough to have characters say things they don't mean, especially since the previous game did exactly that. Not the case here. Here Neil Druckmann was at the helm, and he in real life *genuinely* believes you can offset evil actions by being nice to totally irrelevant people. He used this same rationale to fire the victims of his best friend, Robert Cogburn, when they kept going to HR over him grabbing them by the chest and groin. Worse yet is she's not supposed to be a parallel, but "Joel done right." See, the idea was she'd take over the franchise after destroying everything from the first game, because Neil was upset his ideas kept getting rejected like the entire plot for the first game being about a revenge story. Turns out a failed comic author might not be the sharpest crayon in the box, and Sony's paying for having chosen him over Bruce Straley, Amy Hennig and hundreds of other competent employees that kept telling them he wasn't qualified.

[@Malaestro]

Paying for it by the game being massively successful and decorated and selling like hot cakes? @@crazyinsane500

[@skywalkerorder2839]

I have some big plot issues with this game, the convenience of the horde pushing everyone in the right direction and right time, Jesse leaving Dina alone in an unsecured base to go with Ellie to find Tommy, Mel and Owen's confrontation with Ellie regarding the pregnancy, the tension and suspense of Ellie's POV being completely reset, 1-2 moments involving the Dina-Ellie-Jesse love triangle which I didn't like, Yara teleporting to Abby to save her from Tommy, and stuff like that. However, from a more story-based perspective from the 2 main characters in this one I fairly liked it. Tommy leaving Ellie and wanting her locked up makes sense because he's trying to protect her while that darker side of him from his Firefly days and when he and Joel were hunters has been brought to the forefront basically. There are pieces of context in several areas of this game and even the last game that support the softening of Joel. For example, in the last game after fighting alongside Henry and putting his trust in Henry (also due to him having a younger brother) he slept alongside them once they were safe. The game also makes it clear that Joel has been put into the patrol position which due to the reliability and caring Haven project as shown in a paper from Ellie Day 2 alongside those patrol notebooks and other context clues/dialogue would support his softening. It's also important to acknowledge that Tommy was trying to establish trust with Abby in that lodge and that even if Joel said nothing she would've known anyways. Ellie's journey in Ellie's POV up to Day 3 may make the game come off as just a revenge story (reminiscing memories hint at that) but Abby's perspective recontextualizes the story into something else and in the epilogue section with Ellie this is clearly not just a revenge story anymore, there's more driving her to this point than that. The game is not trying to turn Ellie into a villain from my perspective, it is just showing Ellie going down a path of false justice with her obsession being reinforced by the memories, while Abby has already gone down that path and she's trying to come back from that by realizing her wrongs and mindset and trying to change it but fails until Lev reminds her of what's important and what she's been trying to accomplish. (Pure Survivors in this world) Yes, I will admit that the majority of the side-characters don't have as much character to them as the characters from Part I and Left Behind and I admit that the flow of the plot with certain contrivances and a few pieces of plot armor are indeed messy, but I just don't think the story is absolutely terrible like a lot of people say. I don't think it's as good as Part I and the plot construction is definitely weaker, but I just can't say that it's bad in my opinion. 7/10

[@miller-joel]

Everyone loves to say Joel had to face "consequences" for killing so many people, but they don't recognize he killed to survive and to protect his own. Not for revenge or because he enjoyed it. So he should be punished for being good at surviving? For keeping Ellie alive crossing the country for a whole year? For killing soldiers, hunters, and cannibals, who were more than happy to shoot first? And why don't the Fireflies have to face "consequences" for trying to kill Ellie? Didn't they have it coming?

[@seraphitella2466]

Ellie wanted to die, she was ready to die for a cause. No one says the Fireflies are perfect, but Joel killed many innocent people for a very selfish reason- one even ellie didn’t agree with. Yes, he says “he saved her” but she didn’t want saving and that’s what makes him so selfish. As Ellie put it in part 1 “everything we’ve been through, everything I’ve done, It can’t be for nothing”. Joel knew what she wanted.

[@miller-joel]

@@seraphitella2466 Completely wrong. Not everyone with survivor's guilt wants to die. Ellie and Joel talk about how the Fireflies might get a "cure" from her, and he says they will probably take a blood sample. There's no talk whatsoever about dying for it. In fact, they are making plans for the future. Ellie says after they are done, they can go wherever Joel wants. And she wants to learn to swim and play the guitar. That actually happens in the game. Those are the word written. Not some guess or supposition. Ellie's "cause" at 14 might not be her cause at 19 or 29. Her mother, Riley, Joel, they ALL tell her to keep fighting and find a true purpose in life. Which is impossible to do if she's dead. Joel didn't kill one innocent person in the entire game. There's speculation about his days with Tommy shortly after the collapse, and he says he's ambushed people, but we have zero factual data beyond that. Marlene was the selfish one for kicking Joel out of the hospital and keeping Ellie unconscious. She's the one who removed everyone's choices. Not Joel. When Ellie says "it can't be for nothing" she is NOT saying she wants to die. They are almost at the hospital, and she wants to complete the journey and give the "cure" a chance. NOT the same thing at all as dying for it. She just don't want to turn around and never find out if she could have made a difference. And if Joel "knew" there was a ghost of a chance she could die, he would never allow her anywhere near that hospital in the first place. Ellie had plenty of reasons to question the Fireflies and the certainty of the "cure." If she "sacrificed" herself without asking any questions, she would obviously not be in any mental or emotional condition to make that decision in the first place. And Marlene was not going to let her ask any questions or make any choices. "I was supposed to die at that hospital" is a completely ret*rded retcon in "part 2." They did NOT cross the country and save each other's lives multiple times just so that Ellie could die at that hospital. Least of all, for a fantasy "cure" that would NEVER have happened, and would not have "cured" anything or anyone. The fantasy "cure" would not make the soldiers, hunters, Fireflies, cannibals, runners, clickers, stalkers, bloaters disappear and magically restore civilization.

[@ightbuddy3055]

I disagree, it’s HEAVILY implied that Joel is/was a horrible person and became so after losing his girl. he is a direct contrast to Tommy, I’m pretty sure Tommy comments on how they could’ve survived without killing innocent people “we just weren’t any good at it” not arguing for fictional karma but Joel without a doubt had it coming, charming and lovable but brutally bitter and selfish

[@miller-joel]

@@ightbuddy3055 "heavily implied" 🤣

[@ightbuddy3055]

@@miller-joel the amount of fallacies in this one comment is crazy lmao

[@TushyChan]

When Ellie asks the question why she hasn't seen anyone else who is immune, it's because in the first game, Joel tells her there were more like her and they didn't need her anymore. 18:50

[@maxil8988]

Can confirm, you do NOT have enough to upgrade everything if you explore every room as I've always done this and it's waaay off enough

[@larryplummer9154]

One thing about the end that bothers me is when during the flashback with Joel, Ellie says "my life wouldve mattered" to ne thats selfish when she knows how much she means to Joel and maybe couldve been more understanding about his feelings and why he did what he did. But then i guess Joel was being selfish when he saved her? I dont know. The story has been left open so maybe theyll wrap things up with some of these things if and when TLOU 3 comes out

[@Jkrocsko]

Hard disagree for Joel deserving death, fireflys are incompetent and unable to actually do Anything other than terrorise, whos to say they wouldnt fuck it all up and kill her for no reason, as well, they were super hostile and shady. They werent gunna be able to save the world, as well they wanted to use the Cure as a chip agist fedra, they were just shitty and didnt deserve mercy, and finally, Joel was no worse than anyone else in the wastes. Cannibals, rapists, thieves, murderers of all kind, Joel wasnt some evil dude who deserved death, he literally was just like everyone else. Buy that logic, ALMOST ALL people in this universe deserve a slow death. The wlf soldiers are also FAR WORSE than joel and anyone at jackson. Its really annoying to hear ppl go, "joel was a bad dude who deserved what he got" he was just staying alive the only way anyone could. He is FULLY justified in what he did

[@PiettroGuedes]

exactly. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT NOBODY THINK OF THIS????

[@nelliebec]

When you say stuff like “Ellie’s a dog killer the writers are trying to make us hate her” (rough quote) it really makes it seem like you miss the entire point. Ellie, Abby , Joel, playable characters are not the bad guys or the villains of this game and the writers aren’t trying to make them that. They are three people witnessing and participating in a seemingly never ending cycle of violence and trauma. (Hence so many characters being so hypocritical, that’s what people can be in horrific conditions) Ellie finally not killing Abby shows her growth, it also shows life is worth living, and she finally accepts Joel saving her when she lets Abby live. They aren’t bad people, they’re just people in a zombie apocalypse. Playing the game forces you to show empathy when you don’t want to, which is exactly what Ellie has to do in the end.

[@crazyinsane500]

Wrong, this is not only surface level but trope ignorant. Pet the dog/kill the dog are verbatim tropes you can find on TVTropes. You don't even need to know that behind-the-scenes Neil Druckmann fired people for not liking Abby, to know that you *were* supposed to come out of this thinking Abby was not only the best but also a good person. You were genuinely supposed to dislike Ellie and Joel and fall head over heels over Abby,. The plan was she'd hijack the franchise after destroying everything from the first game because Neil Druckmann was upset that his ideas, like making the entire story center around revenge, were rejected.

[@VivekYadav-ds8oz]

The fundamental problem with this game is that it tries to make you break away from how humans fundamentally operate. We are tribal creatures, we've evolved to stick with our group/tribe and root for them no matter what logic compels us to ignore it. Our tribe is OUR tribe, and no matter what they did, we will have the primal urge to stick with them. TLOU1 is, in this context, the exact opposite of TLOU2 as it appeals to this side of our humanity in the finale. A survey even showed that ~50% of normal players, *but 100%* of parents who test-played TLOU1 said that they agreed with Joel's decision and would've done the same in his shoes everytime. But in TLOU2, we are made to think, "But see, Abby had her reasons too. She's just like Ellie, both were enacting revenge. She's a human too". But that's irrelevant, we've bonded with Joel and Ellie so much that they're OUR tribe now. No matter the reasons Abby could've had (at best, they're just as bad as Ellie's), we still care about OUR tribe, and just cannot care to sympathise with someone that broke both of our beloved characters. We'll still always root for Ellie. We'll still always support her in this case. It's fine to make us realise Ellie is too drowned in revenge, but it's ineffective to make us realise Abby is a good person too. We just won't. Doing so takes too much effort and time that this game wouldn't have had. Hence the Abby sections feel wrong and especially the boss fight against Ellie. That being said, there could've still been a way - make Abby a part of that tribe too. The way to do that would've been to give Abby time as a character BEFORE she kills Joel. Establish her character and her part of the family before we know what she does. Now I know this wouldn't have been possible in TLOU2. It was advertised as a Joel and Ellie game and spending the first-half as Abby would've turned off most players. Hence, in my controversial opinion, TLOU2 should've JUST been about Abby. Show how her father's death haunts her. Let us get to know Owen and Mel and the other characters better. Take us through a journey with her people, so that she eventually joins OUR tribe. Then, in TLOU3, she can come and kill Joel. It would've still stung, but in my opinion, now that both of the protagonists are in our tribe, the game would've actually delivered on all the notes even better. Joel's death wouldn't have felt as bad, Ellie's murder spree would've felt much more ruthless and villanious, and we would've sympathised with Abby more.

[@Buhbiee]

Recently got a PS5 (was on pc after ps3) I absolutely loved TLOU and recently played TLOU2 and I was quite sad at how Joel went out but couldn’t blame Abby for feeling like that.

[@gulgulgulgulgu]

My main problem with this story is that : - They went on assuming that we would "sympathize" with Abby's side after she killed Joel when we knew NOTHING about her. They should have put that scene of Marlene and Jerry in the first game so we understood quicker the consequences of killing Jerry. I had to wait like 12 hours to understand why Abby wanted to kill Joel and by that time my mind was already made on her. - The random PTSD moment at the end of the game. I can understand Ellie's indecisiveness but by the time we see how affected she is by killing, I was already done with Abby. - The writing and the way they "tried-harded" the parallels between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie. That shit was so in your face like : "Look !! Abby has found her people into Lev and the Santa Barbara's Fireflies, just like Joel did with Ellie and Jackson 🥰🥰🥰", "Look !! Abby likes anime and collects stuff, just like Ellie and her comic books and cards!!! :)))))) They are SOOOOOOO similar guys they probably would be best friends if it wasn't for circumstances ❤" It almost feels like the writers sat in front of me and told me "Here's a new Ellie and Joel :))))" for 30+ hours but I do not know those new characters. I do not know her opinions, her dreams, her hobbies, what she likes, what she dislikes. We don't know anything about her before she kills a Joel we've known for like, 7 years. How do you expect me to forgive, or at least sympathize with her ? This story had major pacing issues and I think it's what spoiled it for me. To compare with a game that I've played that came out the same year, Ghost of Tsushima. Imagine if the second act was just us playing as Khotun Khan and talking about his own insecurities and traumas (in parallel with Jin's) while he invades Tsushima. Like bro, I do not care, just die please 😂😂😂. - More of a personal issue but I do not like characters who quit halfway through things, it pisses me off. Especially when we kill THOUSANDS just to get to her only to give up right in front of an almost dead Abby. We have made thousands of Abbys, who could come back AT ANY MOMENT FOR US, in our way, only to fail in front of the only Abby that needed to die and that pissed me off. I wish they would have given us an option to spare people just like in Sifu, so there could be a consequence for OUR actions. I'm playing as Ellie (and Abby) but I'm not them. Not everybody can relate to their choices and their feelings so of course it's going to be polarizing. Now, I know that killing Abby won't bring back Joel (I already know he wouldn't be in the game) but Ellie can't come back to reality with a half empty cup. To me, the cup needs to be FULLY EMPTY to start all over again. I understand the point of the story but it's written so weirdly that I cannot like it. It just leave a sour taste in my mouth. And no matter how much I'd like to change some parts it won't change anything so it's just frustrating. It's like they choose the worst option in a Telltale game 😂😂

[@kostaspassias3815]

There are so many things you can pick out in the story that just don't make sense, but are never addressed by the characters. Abby's is somehow surprised when Ellie comes after her for killing Joel, her father, when that was Abby's whole motivation for seeking out Joel in the first place. How Ellie was somehow convinced the vaccine would have saved the world, when Joel should know better and would have talked about it with her. Plus, honestly, Abby is just unlikeable. The first thing Joel does after Abby finds him is save her life, but she doesn't hesitate for a second to torture and kill him. How am I supposed to sympathise with someone like that? The fact that you can go around killing everyone with no consequences, when the theme of the story is about revenge is also hilarious. They tried to be clever by taking some random nobody like the doctor and attempt to guilt you by giving him a backstory, but it's all so contrived when you spare no thought for all the faceless NPCs you kill without a second thought. And then when you kill one of Abby's friends Ellie has a mental breakdown. She doesn't feel bad about leaving countless dead in her wake, but when she kills one of the people responsible for Joel's death she goes to her girlfriend and cries about it.

[@friendlyfeminist1]

So dont make parallels and dont make likeable characters cause itll feel forced when theyre just tryna tell the story u cant seem to comprehend? Feel bad for u

[@tajiwamai9501]

I appreciate nuanced takes like this. I think I enjoyed the game a bit more because I actually disagreed with Joel's decision in the first game. I think it was incredibly selfish, mainly because while I really like Ellie, I don't think her life becomes more valuable than anyone elses just because I care about her. Since I already disagreed with Joel, I guess it was easier for me to understand Abby's perspective and I felt that Joel kind of had it coming.

[@alexanderinoa7850]

@@friendlyfeminist1 You couldn't comprehend the characters? Sure they were really badly written, but at least some of their motivations had a bit of sense to them. I'm sure there are plot summaries on youtube you can watch if you need to understand them.

[@friendlyfeminist1]

@@alexanderinoa7850 u misunderstood The characters are well written Them saying the parallels and characters are forced is such a stupid argument Its like saying the first game forced u to like joel and ellie

[@KevCoreVideos]

Just finished it for the 3rd time last week. Still holds up. You criticized the story, pace and delivery, which is fine, but didn't really proposed how it should've been done. I agree with Troy Baker in the Grounded II documentary: Not a single person has been able to propose a better way to tell that story.

[@gaia7240]

This is not true, there are plenty, the most common are the ones where Abby infiltrates Jackson and after becoming Ellie's friend she kills Joel

[@BahamutBreaker]

Agreed. There have been a lot of armchair writers thinking they could create a better narrative for TLOU2, including the jackass who replied above my comment. However, no one has actually proposed a more compelling, more dramatic, or more exciting alternative.

[@gaia7240]

@@BahamutBreaker the jackass literally gave examples and you went "no nobody did", no need to insult you know

[@RirimoYT]

its because the story was awful and absolutely nobody asked to be forced to emphasize for that train wreck of a chracter that is Abby. if you can't understand how much we were wronged as players for being denied what we primarly wanted, thats a YOU problem. you might glaze the useless story symbolim of "cycle of hate". but honestly no one cared except for the weak, emotionnal crybabies that defend this mess just because the story wanted to be deep. all the characters were useless self inserts and they were a lot of gay stuff in that game and god forbids youtube strikes my comment for speaking my mind that's how it is. you can't convince us the palyers of what we actually wanted till the end of the game. to kill that useless B.

[@rebecadiazpereira9162]

I honestly looooved getting to play as Abby and the pararles between her and Ellie. I do agree sometimes the shifts or flashbacks kill the pace a bit but to me, those are the parts that made the game so amazing.

[@RirimoYT]

yea you loved being forced to emphasize for the antogonist and being wronged out of a choice at the end? ohhh nooo violence is not wayyyy... sis its a video game at the end of the day you cant wrong the player like that. only the weak minded like you would be glazing this mess of a story just for the "cycle of hate" symbolism at the expense of our chracters and own player satisfaction. i respect that you liked it but the end result wasnt there. the only thing that saves the game are the flashbacks between joel and elie but again. the game was first advertised as another adventure with the two of them. it seems like you settled with what was served to you "just because the story tried to be deep". oh my.... what a mess.

[@crazy-funny-fails1200]

In trailer it was supposed to be PTSD in Ellie's mind making her see joel

[@elijahmcelroy]

I was angry Joel died yes but I’ll accept that fact in a world like TLOU. I’ll even accept that Ellie for some reason wouldn’t kill Abby and end up alone, once again TLOU is a really sad world, so fair. But I hated most that I had to play as Abby and they really wanted me to empathize with her. I hated Abby and she was supposed to be the villain/antagonist. Let me follow Ellie’s story and mourn Joel properly.

[@mitingant]

The developers made Dina pregnant so that there would be a good reason for her to stay at the theater, and Ellie could continue her vendetta alone.

[@jeevan8000]

I think of the game as not about revenge but about forgiveness, as in the end they let eachother go, nkt to say there is no feeling of revenge

[@RirimoYT]

nice symbolism if only they didnt destroy our sanity and f'ed over the players, forcing them to emphasize with a person they totally didnt give a F and wanted dead so bad. that's a mess we were denied of a choice in the ending. the symbolism might leave a tear in the weak minded that settles for peace and kisses, but the execution was total manipulation of our wants thus making the end result flawed in every way imaginable.

[@grackleboi2523]

One thing I've noticed about this game is that most criticisms of contrivances or "plot holes" are the result of people who just straight up didn't pay attention, or even worse, didnt even play the game. I could list examples, but there are honestly so many that I don't know where to start.

[@ptvsophie]

real

[@weed3728]

Exactly

[@miller-joel]

Wrong. We paid attention. And unlike you, we could list examples.

[@beckee6282]

People who didn’t like this game are just too close-minded and dumb to understand the complexities

[@miller-joel]

@@beckee6282 🤣

[@anrios575]

People who hate it just can’t handle real life. People die, characters die. If you want everyone surviving happily, go watch Disney shows.

[@crazyinsane500]

You tie your maturity to a video game. Do you think people secure in themselves feel this way? In No Country for Old Men, the protagonist we follow for most of the film dies off-screen, not even at the hands of the focal antagonist. That was realistic, because it's unrealistic to treat a setting with tunnel vision. If TLOU2 is realistic, why is it *only* Ellie who wants her dead by the end, and not the MANY factions that she's personally aggrieved?

[@stonemoreno1279]

Calling this a “revenge” story is oversimplifying the plot. It’s about grief; both women’s stories are parallel in losing their father’s from murder. Both women lack healthy coping mechanisms to process their grief and all stages associated. It’s much more than “revenge”

[@Il-JayD-lI]

I can always agree with haters of the game about the pacing and some of the story beats not being written perfectly but it has way more good writing then flawed writing. It definitely is subtle with the way it does certain things and is heavy fisted with others. It’s the obvious choices the writers make that give certain people the prospective that the game is hollow, poorly written or coincidental. Don’t get me wrong, the biggest coincidence was Abby runnning into Joel; the other ones seem reasonable. Example: [Tommy ambushing Abby & Manny] Tommy’s must’ve been listening on a radio (as Ellie has) to know the WLF are gunna do an full army invasion on the Seraphites; so they need to get to the docs and acquire the boats. Tommy knows that’s probably the best place to hold up and wait till he has eyes on Abby or one of her friends. He sees Manny with a small scouting platoon and opens fire. (I’ll admit it’s a coincidence that Abby needed a boat too) Now what I said isn’t said anywhere but it can be pieced together by what Tommy can clearly do. He’s a survivor like Joel, he’s been solo this whole time, he found and killed a safe house of soldiers to get to Abby’s first friend. He’s survived several packs of infected. He’s capable; plus Jesse found him by hearing radio chatter. The WLF are very military like, so it’s not far fetched he is using their radio chatter against them. Back to Abby bringing Joel to her friends… I know you brought up the point that supporters make of “Joel has lived in this community for 4 years and has softened up” but that’s exactly what happened. Not that “easier life has made him soft/rusty” but more of Joel’s choices has made him softer. The point of the first game was this brutal survivor that only cares about personal gain having his rugged shell chipped away by the innocents of a child. When Joel is in Jackson he starts to be a kinder person because of and FOR Ellie. Tommy (not stated but inferred) always seemed like he was a good guy; a guy that wanted to save people. He basically had a heroic heart that Joel suffocated with his own misery. (Which the HBO show added onto by Tommy joining the U.S service and the show was co-written by Neil Druckman) Tommy joins the firefly in his want to HELP people and be a LIGHT that the fireflies once branded themselves to be. He later leaves after he realizes they’re kinda bullshit and joins a community of people that are all working together to help rebuild some type of safety. A place where people can have families and bring back some sense of happiness in this forsaken world. They become a trade city where other small communities would come through to trade, which meant they were welcoming to new comers. They say they have bandits but can be handled. With years of practice (which I agree with people that say “years of hardship they know not to trust people and just give out their names”) you can tell which people are genuine and aren’t going to harm you for the hell of it between the bandits that just want your stuff by any means necessary. Abby’s group didn’t come off as these rugged group of bandits. They seemed well taken care of and were younger. (Which usually by the age of what Abby’s group was, these kids would be doing runs for whatever camp they’re with and Jackson probably runs into kids their age to trade between communities occasionally) TOMMY being the good guys he is and always been, being in with the Jackson people for possibly 10+ years and being the co-leader of Jackson offers to HELP THEM restock and introduces HIMSELF. He then allows Joel (the brother he’s been seeing attempt to become a more open and kinder person for the likes of Ellie) to introduce himself. Joel being a better man than he once was introduces himself. [I never got why people would say “he should’ve lied”. Why would he? That just puts their own community in bad light. If you find this super nice group of people but they lie to get you in, you wouldn’t want to stay.] He was better person.. you can even see that from ALL THE FLOWERS that are at his house. People in the town care for him. If he was an asshole going around not talking to people/being toxic, people wouldn’t give a fuck about buying flowers and walking to his house to pay their respects… Abby NOW having 100% confirmation proceeds to shoot him because she knows what this man is capable of. This is “the monster” (in her eyes) that slaughter 10s of soldiers by himself. Her having a small group and Joel having his biological brother with him as backup. She decides to not risk a big fight. Who knows if this Tommy guy is as ruthless/skilled/powerful as Joel. [this next part is how I INTERPRETED the scene but other can see it another way] Abby crouches down to Joel and ask him to guess who she is. Joel then being the masculine man we all know and love, belittles her by saying “why don’t you say whatever speech you’ve got rehearsed and get this over with” (which FUCK YEAH! What a badass way to go out!) I personally saw Abby possibly putting him out of his misery like the old dog he is, since he did just save her life. Kinda like, “you scratched my back so I’ll scratch yours, but… I can’t let you go.” But since Joel put that old persona back on and is now being that monster Abby portrays him to be, she goes ahead and belittles him. Abby shows him that he isn’t this big a bad monster and proceeds to torture him. Troy Baker said this about Joel when he is attack by Abby. “There’s one thing I fall back on to the criticism of my own performance; Is there’s a specific moment. The thought that Joel has is ‘This is what happens when you drop your guard. I allowed myself to trust, I allowed myself to love, I allowed myself to feel, I allowed myself to be safe and THIS is what YOU GET!’ It is a moment of regret. Even inside that moment he goes ‘I’d do it ALL over AGAIN! Cuz what I got was the girl.’ and the fact that doesn’t come through (with out a line of dialogue, a moment of a look) if anything it falls on my failure to be able to present that moment; but rest to sure, that moment is there for Joel.”. So at the end of the day when Joel see Ellie for the last time, Troy’s quote perfectly wraps up Joel’s decisions. If you’re interested in seeing Troy baker, Ashley Johnson and Troy baker speak about the game then you can watch the YT video of them talking about it. Search - Gamecast ep. 26 The Last of us Spoilercast I know it was a long comment but I did go along to enjoy the whole video; even if I had some disagreements on some of your other arguments against the game narrative. ❤️

[@iandavis6345]

It seems like all the great parts he loves are so lovable because they love the first game

[@pearlsplayground]

Another terrific video! All of your points were valid, including pointing out Lev's shoes. I think it is okay to not have a clear conclusion on how to feel about The Last of Us Part 2. It had indeed created multiple debates and discussions. I am not just looking forward to seeing how HBO will adapt this divisive chapter but also the upcoming behind-the-scenes documentary on this game.

[@GameOverloadMO]

Season 2 is gonna be a wild ride one way or another. The behind the scenes for Part II is gonna be must watch for sure.

[@traviscue2099]

TLOU2 imo is like a masterpiece metal album, the entire industry isn't going to understand and appreciate it. But those who love these kinds of stories/music will find it the best that the medium has to offer.

[@scoobertdrew7196]

I will have to say that I don't think this game would have been as nearly as "split" or "controversial" as people say it is if it wasn't for the leaks. TO THIS DAY, I still argue with people who think that Abby is the trans character in this game because they only ever listened to the people viewing the leaks and never bothered to even pick the game up. They have no actual idea of what the game is about. Supporting this, I have noticed that there are PLENTY of people who only dislike the game by citing the fact that LGBTQ+ elements are involved. A lesbian couple and a trans supporting character are all that is present and even then Ellie and Dina spend most of the game apart during the actual gameplay segments, and Lev's trans identity is mentioned little and isn't the sole purpose between the connection between him and Abby. I feel like so many people are just listening to think-tanks of the prior leaks, and anti-LGBTQ+ ideology and spewing hate for a game that definitely isn't perfect, but ABOSOLUTELY NOT terrible. This isn't to say that people out there don't have ACTUAL valid opinions about this game, and I have seen plenty of people who dislike it for VERY FAIR and CRITICALLY SOUND reasons, but I think that they do not account for the larger group who spew hatred for this sequel. Overall, I give the game an 8/10. It has a lot of beautiful moments and the characterization/world building that people LOVED from the first game, but there is writing/pacing issues that could have been corrected by shaving off a few of the final hours of the game and giving us more time in the beginning of the game with Joel and connecting with Abbey. Their original pitch was to have Abby infiltrate Jackson and gain Joel/Ellie's trust, only then to kill him. I feel like this would have been INFINITELY more impactful.

[@durodesduvo8424]

These days I consider myself lucky if 2 or more games come out in one year that can make me give a single fuck. The Last of Us II is an upsetting game, its bloated, I have my issues with some of the characters, but I can respect that ND went out there and sent it. I will remember what happens in this game. I don't remember what happened in Ghost of Tsushima at all.

[@BenKaiwen]

Personally, I don't think that the concept of switching perspectives was too ambitious for a video game. The story of the game could be amazing if they were willing to make the game longer and get rid of some coincidences. And if they were to redo the timeline and make it more linear, like for example if we were to play all those flashbacks before Joel's death we as the players would have been even more eager to do the things we do with Ellie. Also, we could've played for Abby from the beginning, getting to know her and maybe finding a liking to her, we could have longer "flashbacks" so we could play with her and get to know her rather than be crushed when her father would die (nice parallel to Sara, before she would kill Joel). After playing as young Abby we would start the game with young Ellie. We would do all of her flashback parts before playing the actual start of the game. The concept, adventure, and story aspect of the game would be a proper sequel to the first game. Only if they would put it together differently and didn't rely on coincidence.

[@hxnrytaylor]

Been replaying it recently, and it's definitely grown on me a lot

[@r.t.atheone1279]

Same, playing it for a second time rn and I’ve enjoyed it more then my first play through

[@tochukwuudu7763]

nope

[@Clown_the_Clown]

🤢🤮 "Been eating this dogshit recently, and it's definitely grown on me a lot."

[@__ezra]

@@Clown_the_Clownlet people have fun

[@edu7979]

I always loved the gameplay but the story itself i dont think i can ever enjoy

[@cozmos21]

You make a lot a great points but its very subjective, as it should. Not to defend ND because I domy love everything about the game, but the switch of perspective is annoying at first yes, but I wouldn’t say it’s stupid even for a video game. The reason is 2 folds: First we know the whole story with Abby saving Lev, and the ending etc so we do end up liking Abby and we do SEE from living(playing) it that no one is innocent and the hurt you make will come back to you -immune or not. Secondly, if ND didn’t go for an unconventional two part story with two opposing characters then it means the other option would have been a normal, standard straight story line that you don’t really play, you just follow along like any Uncharted game, with no twist no surprise. I’m not saying the idea is the best but it’s not bad, it’s actually really great. It is what it is, like a movie or a song. It’s a deep story there extremely realistic in terms of human reactions. People who hate aren’t hating on 99% of other games where nothing makes sense whether the story dev or characters reactions. And where of course the hero always wins at the end.

[@kidkaden5139]

Joel isnt a beloved character. Anytime someone says that it fucking ruins the meaning. i honeslty think people forget the fucked up shit that happens in the first game and choose not to sympathize with Abby because they are so hell bent on keeping Ellie and Joel good in their eyes

[@shivamsud]

Naah. The lack of Empathy towards abby is becoz of the poor writing and story of the game. Don't put it on players. Yeah everyone is morally grey, Abby is arguably greyer. But it wouldn't have matter if she was well written. SHE WASN'T.

[@kidkaden5139]

@@shivamsud u play at least 10 hours with each character if that doesn't give u perspective I don't know what will u sound like a bot that is proving my point. It's all on the player to understand the story not be bias towards some mainstream Apocolypse tale

[@shivamsud]

@@kidkaden5139 u dont need 10 hours to like a character 🤦 do you npt understand that even after playing as her for 10 hours people dont like abby means that she wasn't written well enough. The simple fact is that TLOU2 failed to execute what could have been an amazing story. U know how bad it is for u if 70% of ur audience cant sympathize with a character u want them ro sympathize with.

[@gaia7240]

No it's because Joel actually have a brain, he is smart and can love since he only acts to defend Tess and Ellie, Abby character is just empty and only act for herself, even with Lev she follow him only because her friends are leaving her

[@levim.3505]

One of the things that bugs me most about the contrived nature of Joel and Abby meeting, is how she doesn't even consider letting him live. He saves her life and an hour later she doesn't even wrestle with herself over killing him, not even questioning her initial motivation to go on this quest? Why wouldn't she begin to doubt the path that she's on? She could have been asking herself if she really saw the death of her father in the right way and whether or not Joel was perhaps acting justified. That perhaps he was not at all the murderous, morally apathetic monster she thought he was. This would add further to the moral ambiguity of killing Ellie for a potential cure and give us a new perspective. There is so much more depth that could have been explored here, but instead we don't even get to experience what Abby told Joel in the minutes she was torturing him... Such a missed opportunity that just rubs more salt into the wound of how contrived and shallow the setup of their meeting is.

[@NoNo-oe8vp]

@@lrsb1678it literally is idk why this commenter wanted her entire arc to be within the first 5 minutes of meeting her 😭😭 it’s to show she was completely blinded by rage and didn’t care that he saved her and also to show how Ellie became the exact same way

[@alexanderinoa7850]

Yeah, your version would be much more interesting, I'm not sure why they went with the one in the game. Oh well.

[@GratuitousGrumbling]

@@NoNo-oe8vp Truuuu. Also, Joel condemns the ENTIRE PLANET to the apocalypse without blinking in the first game. Surely by now we understand people make rash decisions in this series.

[@gaia7240]

She never question anything because she doesn't have a brain, she doesn't even understand why Ellie wants to kill her "we let you live and you came back to kill us? " she ask Ellie when they meet, well no shit Sherlock, she doesn't even question Isac she just beat up people for him, and at the beginning she doesn't even question if killing a 14 years old might be wrong, I mean is she just a psychopath?

[@HumBug_05]

Dina is pregnant to give Ellie a reason to be alone in combat sections

[@harmonygalvin1814]

Totally disagree with your comments about Joel's dropping his guard with Abbie and her crew being completely out of character. In the first game he was jaded and angry at the world due to losing his daughter. In this one he's found a peaceful society with family, learned to love a surrogate daughter who he almost lost due to having his guard up all the time and killing first, asking questions later. He's softened because of those experiences. It's really obvious - I'm surprised you don't see that.

[@TepesLucian]

17:30 I thought Joel would pop up in Ellie's head for the rest of the game like Joker in Arkaham Knight

[@uhuhuh1966]

Abby didn’t just “happen” to stumble across Joel…Owen saw Joel’s patrol and then Abby tracked their horses.

[@dezbryantcaughtit5138]

And then she got chased by a hoard of infected … where she happened to stumble across joel lol

[@uhuhuh1966]

@@dezbryantcaughtit5138 …Joel was escaping the same hoard, of course they eventually came together

[@howiehiew]

@@dezbryantcaughtit5138even if we were to grant you that. This coincidence is incredibly minor, given that it sets up the inciting incident. I never heard anyone complaining about the coincidences in Star Wars where Luke crash lands on a planet and just happens to find Yoda there

[@dezbryantcaughtit5138]

@@howiehiew then there’s the coincidence that Joel just happened to forget that he can’t trust anyone in the world like the Last Us.

[@Savicurlly]

@@dezbryantcaughtit5138 He didn't just "happen" to forget. He was leading a whole new life where "kill or be killed" was the every day, so he gave her the benefit of the doubt.

[@andrewrogers3067]

Ellie didn't lose Dina. The ending of the game shows Ellie wearing Dina's bracelet which Dina held onto when she left, not to mention she has a jacket on. It's not supposed to be Ellie being alone, its her moving on from Joel after not being able to play guitar, and living the rest of her life with Dina. The reason why you didn't see this is because the game does an awful job showcasing this, the last scene we get of Dina is her saying that if Ellie leaves, they're done, only for her to, offscreen, turn around and accept Ellie. This is what I hope the writers were doing at least, because Ellie losing everything after breaking the cycle of violence destroys the first games amazing ending.

[@rykerkingsbury7320]

Why was the house empty and all furniture and pictures gone then?

[@gamerscreed9768]

Maybe they went back to Jackson, seeing as JJ would be around 2 or 3 years old at the time of ellie’s return, and it would have been mighty hard for Dina to take care of him alone

[@miller-joel]

​@@gamerscreed9768But she didn't pack up any of Ellie's stuff, because she left her. Duh.

[@controlzundo]

Honestly, I hated the way this story unfolded. Abby and Ellie are not the same. What Joel did was to save Ellie. Abby's father was going to kill Ellie. Abby doesn't see the difference. These are not parallel characters. Abby is just a bully and having us play her character and eventually escape fate is a disservice to the story. It can be good storytelling to portray the flip the protagonist and antagonist only if they are mirrors of each other. But this is not that.

[@anewfuture]

From Abby's perspective, her father died at the hands of a man who directly slowed down the chance for a vaccine to be developed. She can only see Joel as a terrorist. Joel is pretty much the main villain of the first game. (I would still have done what Joel did) I do agree that playing as Abby didn't feel very good. I had absolutely no attachment to her as a character. It was a questionable decision.

[@gaia7240]

@@anewfuture Abby not seeing her wrong is what I really hate about her, I get why she killed Joel it's not that difficult to understand, but it's still stupid, and in the end she doesn't even talk about it, like, does she even understand that Ellie is the immune girl? Why she just can't understand that Joel was saving her? This is a sign of a small brain to me

[@harmonygalvin1814]

No. Joel murdered them all - that didn't need to be done. He killed Abbie's father, she was just a little girl who needed her dad too. Calling her a 'bully' is just silly. She followed the natural course of justice after what Joel did. I mean, look at all the butchering Ellie does to Abbie's crew. She kills a pregnant woman! And Abbie lets her go a SECOND TIME! That's hardly a bully. Again, I think you're calling her that cos she looks like a guy, lol. Because everything else you say makes no sense.

[@elenahansen2446]

@@harmonygalvin1814 We cannot forget that the Fireflies was a terrorist group, they also killed hundreds, maybe even thousands of people. You say Ellie killed a pregnant woman, first off, she didn't know. While Abby is about to kill Dina, Ellie yells out that she is pregnant, and Abby says "GOOD". Abby is a bully, the amount of people that she has also killed, who have children, mothers, fathers, brothers. She is just as bad as everyone else. Joel didn't kill anyone who didn't shoot at him first, and in a world that they live in, it's either kill or be killed. It has also been stated in the first game that there is no vaccine, because you can't make a vaccine for fungal infections, not even in todays modern society. The survival rate for Ellies operation was also 10%, which she did not know because she was kept unconscious the whole time. And lastly, in the first game we also found out that the Fireflies didn't even have the medical supplies to get a proper vaccine to the people. The Fireflies, including Abby's father, were not good people, and they were going to kill Joel and Ellie regardless if there was a cure or not. (Actual facts from the first game).

[@kumosumo1419]

Abby's group, new character, written by Neil drukmen, are hypocrites bc the writer himself is a hypocrite and he does not realise it. That's y it carried over to the characters

[@Bread_Media]

Manny's dad was most likely also a firefly. We're introduced to him shortly after Abbie's half of the game gets underway. While it's not explicitly stated, I think in all likelihood he was the one who know about Tommy's whereabouts. We also don't know how many other fireflies joined the WLF - any number of them could have known Tommy. So I don't think this was lazy writing. I actually think it was carefully thought through.

[@RybatGrimes]

This is a fantastic and very fair critique of the game. I’m so glad you brought up Mel putting herself in CONSTANT COMBAT situations while 300 months pregnant, like she’s such a stupid character I swear to god. While I absolutely loathe this game and its entire premise, retconning a nameless doctor into someone else entirely is such a problem for me and makes the existence of this story SO contrived, I do agree with you that the premise of Abby as a character is SO interesting and could’ve been done SO well. I believe Abby should’ve had her own self contained story that did not include Joel and Ellie, it could’ve set it up for a final confrontation, but I believe there’s so much great potential to not only Abby, but her relationship with the WLF and how it relates to this “cycle of violence”, the Seraphites are very interesting and also Isaac, yet the game is so loaded there’s zero time to fully explore these themes, characters, and lore. I fully believe the game would’ve been so much better and way more well received if the game focused ONLY on Abby as the protagonist as she struggles with the loss of her father and how violent and angry she’s been. The WLF are a really awful and violent group, so I think relating that to what Joel did would be an interesting way to develop Abby in having her arc be that she realizes how awful the WLF are (literally training people to be torturers and killers) and how she’s no better than whoever killed her father and this violence that she’s perpetuating doesn’t serve her and only continues the cycle. It would’ve just been so much more interesting and everyone would’ve had so much more time to breathe and develop. Anyway, great video again, and I really enjoyed it.

[@dreero_]

Bro doesn't know what retcon means lol

[@RybatGrimes]

@@dreero_ “the act, practice, or result of changing an existing fictional narrative by introducing new information in a later work that recontextualizes previously established events, characters, etc.” The way I used it is correct, but nice try. Keep licking that boot baby, I hope it still taste good after all these years.

[@bailoch]

Imagine playing part 2 and your conclusion is it should’ve just been about Abby 😂😂

[@stevenburrows240]

you do realize that Mel is a medic, right? You also realize that Issac is gathering his troops at the main base and while Mel and company were on the way there, they got ambushed. That wasn’t planned. Mel was simply needed at a base and was going there. Did y’all even pay attention?

[@austriangroyper9308]

​@stevenburrows240 she is driving through a warzone while 8 months pregnant. Sure, she didn't expect to get ambushed, but she is unnecessarily putting her child's life at risk. The WLF is a huge group, they will have had plenty of medics that could handle it.

[@frickenwicked]

Agree that this is not a perfect game by any means lol However, a lot of the character and character decision making critiques are what I think makes the characters real. People have hypocritical behavior in real life. Ragging on them for being hypocritical makes that a biased take against those characters. After Ellie murders a pregnant woman and reconnects with Tommy (who could have been presumed dead at that time) In a whirlwind of emotional events-I’m sure the last thing she would have been thinking about is the map she didn’t realize she dropped during a fight. I agreed with many of the takes in the beginning of this video but as it went on, a lot of the them did not feel grounded in the environment of the story and just felt very birds eye view of “why did the writers do that.” I think it’s meant to be a bit messy.

[@gaia7240]

That is not how characters should work and it's literally a sign of bad or lazy writing, you need to give a reason to why a character does that or the viewer won't feel connected to it and just label it as a foolish character

[@nickymo]

I hope jeffrey wright reprises his role as isaac in the tv show. He’s up for a best actor oscar this year, if he’s in the show they’ll have to flesh out the character more. You hear so much about Isaac before you meet him, its disappointing how little consequence he has in the story in the end.

[@GameOverloadMO]

Agreed. It really bugged me how little attention he got considering the build up, as well as the actors talent.

[@ParanoiDave]

It reminded me of the movie 1917. How all the high ranking people in positions of authority are played by "big name" actors, even though they get very little screen time and are basically cameos in the main characters story. It conveys to the viewer, that these people are a big deal within the world of the narrative, even if they're not part of "our story" for very long.

[@angryretrogamer7313]

I see what you mean about how the writers implemented Joel's death but i don't think its lazy writing. I think they were trying to make his death have the biggest and most sudden impact possible. I think they succeeded and i think it worked perfectly. Joel's death was devastating to me as a long time player and fan and it hit me fast and hard, very hard. I don't think they could have brought that across much better. I really enjoyed the video thanks

[@Jawa.cc0]

i think the game is perfect aside from having to play as joel's killer. the ending make you feel unsatisfied, the point of the game. no one won.

[@-switched-2826]

Noone upset at all that joel didn’t describe what happened at all to ellie, just told her “yea i killed them because they wanted to kill you.” not… “They knocked me out trying to save you from drowning, put a gun to my head and told me you needed to die, lied to me saying there wasn’t any other way and didn’t want to at-least humor the person who brought ellie DAYS of travel to the base safely by testing on you… not just outright kill you in a haphazard non-guaranteed way of MAYBE getting a cure. Not to mention they didn’t ask you , they purposely kept you unconscious so they didn’t possibly have to contest a child maybe valuing their life more then a low chance cure? A cure that a terrorist group (with a history with shitty choices and decision) may monopolize on the surviving humans of the world??. I just called them on their flawed decision and they threatened to kill me for caring about your wellbeing.” If he even said ANY of those points ellie wouldn’t just idk… ice him out? Let alone the narrative aspect of killing him so early and ruining the rest of the game for people who wanted tlou2 to be a sequel and a focus on idk… the relationship of ellie and joel? the WHOLE point of the first game? They set up abby so poorly and the back and forth narrative could’ve been done so much better. Im so upset and i hope the movie series change up joels passing or ill never forgive Naughty Dog for crippling this franchise like this

[@gaia7240]

I the first game there is a dialogue in which ellie says that it is stupid to sacrifice few people to save the majority.... But in the second part she completely changes reasoning

[@Mcquiz95]

@@gaia7240 Typical retconning of the characters to help fit in the stupid plot.

[@jengooo112]

@@gaia7240 Oh my god there is no way you're this thick. The entire plot of the story, literally the whole plot, revolves around how Ellie's search for revenge turns her into a monster and changes everything about her. That's the exact contrast the game is looking to create, and clearly does. In the first game, Ellie is a 14 year old girl who still shows a lot of empathy and is still quite moral considering the world she lives in whilst in TLOU2 she's the opposite. Hence why she no longer agrees or thinks that it is "stupid to sacrifice a few people to save the majority" which by the way doesn't make any sense for the first game and I don't think she said that so I am guessing you meant to say the opposite

[@jengooo112]

Neil Druckmann talks about this in directors commentary actually. It's so much more powerful because Joel doesn't even need to say the words. Ellie knew the truth the whole time and began to resent Joel which we see in the flashback where they go through the hotel for guitar strings. So when Joel said "Making a cure would've killed you", it shows that Ellie knows exactly what he means and has known for a very long time. It just hurt so much more when Joel confirmed it

[@gaia7240]

@@jengooo112 yeah but she goes on revenge already thinking like that, so it doesn't make any sense

[@oneyplayes465]

One of the failure of this narrative by basing it off Joel's past coming to do him in the end, is the very fact that by that resolve, all of the 7 - 11 people Ellie killed have family members, friend etc waiting in line to come after Ellie. Also this goes for Abby and her friend. The basis of the blame is strange when everyone else are murderers in similarity with Joel. Remembering that Joel was not killed for the potential preventing a cure. He was killed because he killed an NPC character. The setup was understandable but was weaker choice to set off the story. I am pretty sure with proper brain storming the writers could have came up with a better way for Joel to die because by this method there are lines of people waiting to kill Abby, Ellie etc. Also Joel did not just outright killed Abby's father, the man was threatening Joel and was in the way of a fed-up Joel rescuing Ellie. Abby know well why her father died because she was implicated in the notion of her father actually going through to killing Ellie.

[@cryofist]

not to mention it forces you to kill that npc, it literally wasnt a choice, even if you dont shoot him he comes at you with the blade and joel puts it into the dudes neck. plus i love how abby doesnt seem to care that her dad was going to kill a child in the first place. and you spend the whole first game seeing that its all 100% needed to act that way to survive

[@oneyplayes465]

@@cryofist Exactly bro!

[@noahbarnett8101]

@@cryofistShe literally said if it was her she’d also want to die for the cure y’all dont pay attention at all

[@aroidpapa]

@@noahbarnett8101 of course they don't pay attention, they only fixate on what serves their narrative to keep hating on Abby. Most people in TLOU universe are shit, fanboys just cannot get over their fave's death and then having to play as the one who killed their fave. Fanboys pick and choose story beats that suit them and makes them feel like their misogyny is justified. I mean listen to the OP, repeatedly calling it lazy writing by omitting very crucial parts, like Tommy leaving for Seattle 'not making any sense' all the while leaving Tommy's letter to Maria saying LOCK ELLIE UP out of his analysis. these people will never look at the bigger picture, they're just butthurt their fave character got killed

[@KratoZJ]

Even after killing Joel Abby’s flash backs were of her dad (PTSD) What changed in her final flash back in the hospital was Lev (Love) Ellie’s final flashback was her convo with Joel and forgiving (Love) That’s the point of the end. Killing Abby won’t fix anything. Ellie lost everything again because she went to seek out her vengeance but can you blame her? It’s not a story of revenge, it’s a story about EMPATHY which a lot of you lack and it shows.

[@skywalkerorder2839]

The guy talks about 'perspective' and then only applies it in a certain sense while failing to see that no matter the objective truth of the situation from Abby's perspective Joel murdered her father in cold blood, might've killed companions that she knew in getting there, and Joel took away a potential vaccine. Combine that with the emotionally irrationality that a person goes through after something like that, and you have an emotional obsession growing.

[@jesscanter4471]

I would also argue this isn't a revenge story. It's about forgiveness. Forgiveness of your enemies. Forgiveness of the people around you, and forgiveness of yourself. I think Ellie also hated Abby SO much because she was robbed of the chance to forgive Joel. We see the scene the night before his death where she tells him "I don't know if I can forgive you, but I'd like to try." And she never got to mend their strained relationship. Ultimately she chooses to forgive Abby and let it all go, as she would have tried with Joel. At least that's my take on it! But no, lol i certainly do not think this story is as cut and dry as "revenge is bad."

[@cia4u401]

Yeah bestie your such an empath omg

[@gaia7240]

There is not a sign of actual empathy in the whole game, they are just acting out of their needs, that's it, the game is just about losing your humanity

[@silhouette8446]

You argue that the way that Joel, Tommy, and Abby find each other at the start of the game didn't make sense because it was purely coincidental but I strongly disagree. After the '4 years later' cutscene we are given the initial narrative that Joel & Tommy went on patrol, but they haven't been heard from for hours, and they also tell you that there's a lot more infected than usual on their patrol route, so you can presume that Joel & Tommy are dealing with too many infected and are being forced to run away to safety, which causes them to eventually be lost. This is also the entire reason that Ellie goes looking for Joel, because he supposedly never showed up to his next lookout. When playing as Abby, you see that she's going in the direction of a cabin, marked by a window of light in the snow. Owen says that he saw a patrol go from that "outpost" to another. Of course, if Tommy & Joel were patrolling on this route but got lost because of the infected, they are going to run to the only safe place. This is reflected perfectly when you play as Abby at the beginning. You encounter a giant horde of infected and end up having no choice but to run, and the only safe place you find is the same place that Joel & Tommy are. Is this a coincidence? Yes, absolutely. I understand that to say that they just so happened to be on this patrol route is a coincidence, but that doesn't make it illogical. In real life, coincidences happen all the time and there's little way of knowing they're going to happen. That's what coincidences are. Hell, even Abby didn't know that it was Joel and Tommy helping her until they said their names. Just because something lined up doesn't make the story writing "lazy" To call their writing lazy in the first place is extremely unfair considering the amount of time they put into just the writing. They didn't just slap it together as you paint it, they did actually take the effort in every detail of the story. I think you are overlooking key points of information because you are letting your initial emotions about the game get the better of you. And it's ironic because that's what the game is about lol. Sure it's illogical to systematically kill everyone Abby ever cared about, but its not always about just logic. The way people feel about things and how they act on it is what is playing the key role in this story, and that is something you're missing as well when analyzing this game.

[@Jeffreyhitthat]

my opinion, cutting the game in half is amazing to me. as a kid i grew up loving halo 2. bungie does a very similar thing where they have you player boths sides of the story. this changed my life. i learned that enemy can be perspective. there is good and evil, but sometimes it isnt that simple. yin and yang. good in evil and evil in good. to me, last of us 2 and halo 2 will always be perfect sequels to their masterpieces. DISCLAIMER THIS AN OPINION NOT A DEBATE

[@amandimation]

i'm getting bored of seeing videos with titles like "deep dive" on TLOU2 or "reflecting on" TLOU2 or "revisiting the controversy"-- but then the bulk of the video essay is just listing off the plot points one at a time. it feels a lot like a wiki-summary of the game meant for people who have never played it. like bro, the title of this video is clearly aimed at people who have played the game already, so i really don't get why you spend so long explaining the plot. It does not go in "deep" at all, and your little notes about your feelings toward the plot show that you still refuse to engage with the story even after all this time. if you actually want to understand the game, I recommend the scene series that TLOUexplained channel is doing right now. even if you don't agree with the content of the videos, maybe you can at least learn what the format of an analysis video essay actually sounds like

[@va9136]

@amandimation I not only agree with your comment but also thank you for TLOUexplained page! My fucking mind is LITERALLY blown - that was like an analysis masterclass!

[@delduvall]

The reason why the game wasn’t good imo was its terrible pacing, Joel’s death happened way too quickly and after playing as Ellie for half the game it was a huge burnout having to play as Abby just so I could get back to their confrontation. You also can’t expect the player to sympathise with Abby because she’s not exactly a good person either, it’s honestly one of the most baffling stories I’ve experienced in a game and that’s probably the problem. This kind of storytelling doesn’t suit a game and I reckon the tv show will tell it a lot better.

[@zackwalker1721]

full disclosure. I do not play video games. I'm just someone who's spent the past year doing extensive research on the source material, after loving the HBO show. If I'm off base I'd be interested to hear why from an actual gamer. Is the following statement a description of Abby's story, or Ellie's story. A young lady has her father tragically murdered. She is so consumed by the psychological horror of the incident that she is unable to fully appreciate all the reasons to live that she has in front of her. She can't let all that she has to live for distract her from her need for revenge, and in pursuing revenge, she loses much of what she had, and learns the hard way that vengence is more trouble than it's worth. Was that Abby's story, or Ellie's? The answer is of course both. The big issue with the story that they chose to tell, was that if they really wanted to tell that story, Abby was the only strictly necessary character to get the point across. But you can't just release a game and NOT have the audience play as the beloved characters from the previous game. People wouldn't have gotten on board with a game that was an Abby story, which happened to have Joel and Ellie in it, so they rushed Joel's death, in order to rush Ellie into the same situation, but this was done to set up a story for Ellie when the exact same conflict had already been set up for Abby. This meant that the story had two halves which were not only structured in a clunky way, but were two halves which were just making the same point twice (yes I see the irony in having phrased this issue multiple times) Rather than two halves of a story that elevated each other. Plus some of the supposed intention was to show things from the point of view of both team abby and team ellie to make the point that what one side might see as a monster, the other side might see as a human being. If team abby is calling team ellie monsterous, you don't even need to SEE Ellie's side in part 2, to show the flaws in that. We already saw team Ellie in the first installment.

[@DSS712]

One interesting thing I noticed from talking to people is that the game seems to have been much better received by people who played the second game immediately after their first playthrough of the first game. It actually makes a lot of sense why people who play both games for the first time back to back would love the story, because you're going into the first game expecting it to be a part 1 rather than a standalone story, and thus the second game having the previous game's emotional climax as the driving point for the entire story doesn't feel as...awkward? I guess awkward would be the word? Like for me, as someone who played the first game when it first came out and really came to appreciate its value as a perfect standalone story, it was already really jarring to imagine what a sequel would be like, and it was really awkward when the sequel's entire plot and emotional driving force turned out to be HIGHLY motivated by the events of the first game. This isn't a universally bad approach for sequels, but it is a bad approach when the first installment's impact and success explicitly comes from the fact that the story was left open ended and with lack of closure. When I try to think of a parallel, I imagine if Christopher Nolan suddenly made an Inception sequel where you see if the top stops spinning or not. Like no, nobody wants that. At all. Likewise, I genuinely did not want to see what happened next in Joel and Ellie's relationship. That's not the point of the ending. Before I rant too much, I'll just say that it definitely was possible for the Last of Us to have a universally loved sequel, but I think in order to do that it would have needed to essentially sideline the events of the main story to a big extent. I always look at Better Call Saul (prequel to Breaking Bad) and Puss in Boots The Last Wish (spin off to Shrek) as golden examples of how to make compelling spin off/sequel/prequel to a beloved story. Each of these respective stories expanded on both a beloved character and the world that the first story took place in, but they are EXTREMELY careful to leave the events of the first story completely untouched. Any reference to the initial story is done very sparingly and in more of an easter-eggy way, as the writers want to be very careful to not interfere with something that the audience already views as complete.

[@dougefresh2208]

That may be a good point. I played bpth games back to back on the ps5 and i think they are both great

[@diegocastrolizarazo2749]

I agree with many things about yor opinion. The pace is not the best. Story depends heavily on contrivances. But it is, overall, a great story. As a colombian, it speaks to me loudly. The point of the game, for me, is not that Abby is suddenly the good guy and Ellie the bad guy. For me, it is that, in war, there´s really not good or bad people, just people. And people always is rigtheous in their own eyes. Is a tale of Us against Them, but we are both at the same time. Abby is capable of good and wrong, as is Ellie, and as was Joel. I deal with war crimes in my job all the time, and when you interview the people who commited them, you realize they are just people. They still commited those horrible things and deserve to face consecuences, but they are just people. The story, for me, trascends a videogame. Is deep. It portrays violence as horrible as it is. As something you should be uncomfortable with, even pretending to do it playing on a PS5. And im glad both of them survived at the end. It´s an awful world as it is. Anyway, very good video. Just wanted to share my perspective.

[@dereksmidl8352]

💯

[@fresh4335]

Although Joel letting his guard down is unrealistic, I don’t think it would of changed his fate. They were already planning on making someone from Jackson tell them about Joel and Tommy. His death may have occurred a few minutes later but they would of been captured by abbies group in that scene no matter what.

[@Firealone9]

Abby showing zero remorse for Joel's murder throughout the game really makes her insufferable and impossible to like.

[@playboykam]

But like, Joel showed zero remorse for the murder of her father. So why should she care about his death? "If somehow the Lord gave me another chance, I'd do it all over again"

[@victorko13]

I wouldn't say she has remorse about Joel's murder, but she definitely regrets doing it by the end of the game, considering how it directly led to her life falling apart and all her friends getting killed by Ellie, even if it's not outright stated.

[@broda5310]

Love how you approached this retrospective. You dunked on it when it was deserved, but gave it praise when it was deserved. I don't know why people insist on loving or hating the game with no grey area. This game is more complex than a blanket statement opinion implies. Amazing video man!

[@jinxx44]

Not only was Abby going to kill Dina, but when Ellie tells her that Dina’s pregnant, Abby goes “Good.” and tries killing her anyway LMFAO. How am I supposed to sympathize or care about this stupid character in any way or be convinced that she isnt the bad person here and Joel is the monster?

[@mattnsg13]

she said that because her PREGNANT FRIEND DIED HOURS BEFORE THAT HAPPENED

[@diart6969]

​@mattnsg13 ellie didn't know she was pregnant

[@mattnsg13]

@@diart6969 doesnt matter

[@diart6969]

@@mattnsg13 it kinda does

[@mattnsg13]

@@diart6969 not for abby

[@tmac326]

I rebought this game recently to try to give it another chance after all these years and I just can’t get through it without feeling like I’m wasting my time on poorly written drivel. The characters are unlikable and so one dimensional because they are just straight up archetypes that are there to fulfill the role they were written for even if everything they do, say or the role they have in the story doesn’t make sense or is underwritten. A perfect example of this is Dina. We don’t know much of anything about her and Ellie’s “relationship” other than that they have known each other for years, Ellie had a crush on her while Dina was dating and smashing Jessie and then they break up and suddenly her and Dina are just “ride or die together forever lovers” and Jessie is just okay with it, which let’s be honest, is not really all that likely in real life but because he is written to be the all around good guy who is also ride or die and he has no real personality, opinions or goals outside of his role he play, he only says something along the lines of “I don’t care that you are with Dina now. Whatever”. Not one person even tried to tell Ellie to not go after Abby in the first place, which adds more fuel to the fire that these characters aren’t written well and just feel like someone with minimal writing credentials played a heavy part in writing the story. Meanwhile, I have bought the first game 4 different times for PS3, the remaster on PS4, sold the remaster and bought it digitally when it was on sale again, and the PS5 “remake” and have played through it many times. Besides moments of frustration from the higher difficulties, I never feel like I’m wasting my time. It’s one of the best stories in gaming and most characters get the time and attention they need to be more than just one dimensional cardboard cutouts. Part 2 to me, will never live up to that even with the moments of greatness in the story and the amazing graphics and gameplay. The story is the main thing that made this a franchise and now, it’s beyond redemption and any future third game, no matter how much better it is than 2, will not live up to the first and also has a mighty big shadow to overcome after Part 2 left such a sour taste (and for some, bittersweet) in the mouths of fans who eagerly awaited it.

[@finn1333]

Wym no one told Ellie not to go? They literally closed the stables down and it was only after Tommy left that Maria let them go to bring him back. I don’t think you paid attention to the story and characters as much as you should’ve. You should finish the game

[@AvaaSlays_Swiftie]

This guy perfectly sums up my feelings for this game. Gameplay graphics and cinematic scenes are perfectly amazing. Story just has me in and out and can be hard to wanna replay

[@Jffeeney3rd]

Yeah. It’s def hard to play to replay, just because the story hurts it so bad. That being said, it’s a lotta fun to play, if you’re into massacring hundreds of NPCs.

[@Jonny-wt3rg]

Dina being pregnant was totally rediculous and cringe af.

[@DrRESHES]

yeah, pregnancy is cringe, and doesn't exist.

[@gaia7240]

Their whole relationship was, it felt like those fake ones from college movies

[@jengooo112]

What? It was to help show how focused Ellie was on getting revenge. She was always very hesitant on going back to Jackson despite Dina being pregnant. Everytime it was brought up she strayed away from the conversation and brushed it off. It was also so that JJ could be a constant reminder of Jesse and the consequences of Ellie seeking revenge. If you didn't understand the story then just say that instead of bashing the game and the dozens of people that spent years making it.

[@jamesadams8694]

​@@gaia7240Nah that's bs. It was a bit cheesy but they had crazy good chemistry

[@jamesadams8694]

Why was it ridiculous? She just broke Jesse. Why couldn't he impregnate her

[@3brownn3]

After a second time playing, I don't think you really learned all that much. Every time Abby does something or builds a connection, it's not the writers preaching to the player to like her. You don't have to like her. It just humanizes her and educates why she is breaking the cycle of violence.

[@jitteryjet7525]

That's what I thought too. It was just showing things from her perspective. Revenge its self is human.

[@Maori_Senju12]

The bad writing for Joels death felt like a big F U for fans. For a story based series, this was inexcusable.

[@shayaneshghi467]

I wanted to write a comment explaining why I disagree with most of his video, but the top comments really did it justice. Glad to see most people, even in the comment section of a video that is criticizing the game, seem to support it.

[@mrmarty9729]

I personally feel that the conflict between Ellie and Joel are pretty poorly understood by the writer's, They could have made the entire game on this theme even without having to introduce a new character to invoke a new theme, Cycle of violence in a post apocalyptic world is befitting theme for a game like tlou2 but it seemed so forced to facilitate that particular theme where as the predecessor exceeded our assumptions about post apocalyptic, Joel's demise was heavily foreshadowed and expected but the emphasises on theme of cycle of violence doesn't fit well in the world of last of us, The parallel of Abby and lev was just so empty in all aspects of the game, Jackson town was wasted in the entire game, They could've literally had someone like abby living in Jackson then taking out Joel therefore creating tension amongst the people, Ellie immunity being revealed to people of Jackson could have got a intriguing plot or search for the truth from Ellie perspective instead of seeking revenge. This is just my opinion if anyone actually made all the through this thanks

[@lukasswestt]

this video is every single thing i think most people get wrong about the game :( i’m sad the impact i personally felt from it didn’t effect others

[@rangoonlazy2776]

Me too its my favorite game

[@Roland6733]

Same I just sometimes feel like people are idiots cuz they can't understand the story well or smth Also there is the thing that Joel didn't deserve to die or get tortured like that,but he hella deserved it, and i hate to say it(ik this will start a war, down blow up my notifications pls)

[@wannachill3292]

@@Roland6733no one gave a fuck bro 😂

[@chiyuu.n]

Then you get to play it again. Another aspect was conveyed is DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES. That is!