A Tale of Two Masses

[@omarvazquez3355]

Your videos are unintentionally asmr. I listen to them when I go to sleep 💤

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Omar! I'm happy to hear that the ASMR effect didn't go away when I changed microphones.

[@MusicalMedley2]

I was not raised Roman Catholic, but my grandmother was all her life. Thank you for showing these two books. I would love to have the old one like that as it would be what my grandmother used. She passed away before Vatican II, and was a very devout Catholic.

[@philipguzman9321]

Seeing the artwork you showed as the Mass is in progress in the St. Joseph Missal brought back so many memories of my youth. Precious!

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Philip!

[@johnwilderspin1633]

Thank You, Grant. You’ve reminded me that l was raised Anglican, educated Catholic (both as a child in a convent school in the UK & as a young adult, taking a BA at a Catholic liberal arts college in London ON) & turned out Baptist, go figure - John

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, John! My own path turned a few times along the way also, though it sounds as if I had much less formal exposure to Christianity in any form than you.

[@joebollig2689]

Not “another” sacrifice, but our participation in the one and only sacrifice of Christ.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Joe!

[@joebollig2689]

Love your channel, Mr. RGJ.

[@rosalynforte509]

Hi. I’m a Roman Catholic and I have and grew up using the same exact St. Joseph Daily Missal that you have there. I always loved it.

[@samueljones5421]

Great video once more. I will say from my perspective as a convert from Protestant to Catholic I found myself in a church that only did Novous Ordo, I tend to think I lean towards the traditional mindset of a Catholic and yet I do love the Mass offered by my Church. I haven't been to a TLM before but have watched plenty and I think they are beautiful. But also coming from the church I was raised in even the new mass was a big leap for me, I had a lot to learn as a newbie. My former church rarely even sang to be honest so converting and joining this church I was singing more than I probably ever had. But that's just my experience I guess, all in all you did fantastic as always and thank you for this video.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the encouraging comment, Samuel!

[@dcalflorian]

Thank you for your work on this video. I have been to both Masses. The Latin Mass gives time for contemplation. The New Mass allows for congregational participation. You did a good job on this. Have you thought about doing reviews on prayer books and psalters? (Breviaries).

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the kind words, Dave! I did something of an introduction to the American 1928 Book of Common Prayer a couple of years ago, but the usual Bible and translation review work tends to keep me busy. So I haven't gone out of my way to acquire prayer books and psalters to review. Perhaps when I retire I'll have time to branch out.

[@όαγωνιστής-θ6θ]

Excellent video. I am partial to Eastern rites, but I must say that I like both the TLM and Novus Ordo, and I think the biggest issue is V2 itself and the motivations behind it, not necessarily the new mass. Anyways, perhaps a comparison of some of the ancient liturgies (Basil, Mark, James, John Chrysostom, etc.) would be interesting.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the kind comment! That's a great suggestion!

[@Eagle1349]

Γεια είσαι Ορθόδοξος

[@όαγωνιστής-θ6θ]

@@Eagle1349 Ναι. Ελληνορθόδοξων αλλά όχι Έλληνας.

[@tanksgt]

The Latin Mass is why I converted from being an Episcopalian to Catholicism.

[@5150show]

The MTF missal is a beautiful resource

[@nailtoncesardossantos136]

Good afternoon! this video surpassed my expectations, a review very different from what you do with bibles, and mainly because I am catholic, but I have a curiosity that I would like to ask you? I would like you to do a review on the Latin Vulgate Bible if possible! Congratulations on the good performance and may God always enlighten you!

[@leonardoljuljduraj8387]

Dear Grant, your attempt to understand without prejudice is commendable. I really admire you for that. As a catholic, I could write a big chunk of a comment, but this is not the place. Let me just comment on the difference between catholic and anglican understanding: anglicans accnoledge all 7 sacraments as catholics because of the Henry VIII's deffense of them against Martin Luther. We (catholics), don't accept their validity of sacraments (except baptism), because of the lack of their apostolic succesion (pope Leo XIII).

[@RGrantJones]

Thank you for the kind comment, Leonardo!

[@pmachapman]

Thank you for the video - I have always found the liturgical changes from Vatican II to be fascinating, and I did not realise that Pope Francis had stirred the pot again. I have a lot of respect for the Society of Pius X and their keeping pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism alive. The mountain village (Ohakune, New Zealand) I grew up in was "Siberia" for priests that refused to say the "Protestant Mass" as Father McGrath called it!

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Peter! I'd like to learn why Pope Francis decided to act as he did, and what caused him to do so now. It seems clear that he views traditional Catholicism as a danger, but it isn't at all apparent why. His concern over traditionalists seems comparable to an elephant being frightened by a mouse, but perhaps he knows something I don't (e.g., maybe he's seen demographic projections that trouble him).

[@pmachapman]

​@@RGrantJones Yes, I would like to find out too, but can only speculate, much like I speculate that Joseph Ratzinger saw some thing or issue so hideous that he retreated back to his books (his work on the catechism before becoming Pope Benedict was superb!) I do notice a global trend in Christianity where particularly for post-moderns, they seek older, more traditional forms of worship and practice in Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, sick of the saccharine seeker-sensitive forms of Christianity they experienced in their youth. Maybe the Trad Cats (as I have heard them referred to in youthful circles) are growing, when they were expected to wither on the vine?

[@SaltyPalamite]

@Paul Whitman Francis is part of the modernist crowd that fetishizes Vatican II as a "super-council," and thinks that Catholicism began in 1965.

[@AmericanShia786]

Excellent video. The comment by rraddena addressed the only problem I had with it. I was raised Roman Catholic, but have not been a member for decades, so this one problem is not a big deal for me. I don't know what the prefaces were in the 4th century, but I know the canon of the traditional Mass, which the Orthodox Christians call the Divine Liturgy of Saint Gregory I (The Great), was originally in Greek. I personally believe the "saints", those believers who are either alive or " asleep", can pray for us. So, that aspect of the Masses doesn't bother me. However, I agree the Sacrifice of the Mass would be one of praise and Thanksgiving as a commemoration of Crucifixion. Convert Catholic professor Dr. Scott Hahn has said the Mass makes present the sacrifice of two thousand years ago. Depending upon what Dr. Hahn means by that, I might be able to accept that, so long as there is no real sacrifice.

[@RGrantJones]

I favor the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving / 'feast upon a sacrifice' concept, the latter sacrifice being that 'full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction' of Christ on the cross. Thanks for the kind comment, Philip!

[@chris12780]

Hi Mr. Grant, I am just curious where were you able to get a copy of that St. Joseph Misal?

[@RGrantJones]

Chris - I've had it for a long time, so I don't remember where I found it. But it was probably in a used bookstore. I used to travel frequently for work, and I would often nose around used book stores after the day's meetings were over.

[@ggarza]

Thank you, Professor Jones! You continue to set the bar with your reviews. You are correct in stating that the Catholic Church teaches that the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is the daily renewal, as our Lord commanded, of the New and Eternal Covenant with humanity. You also identified the new compositions that make up the Prefaces and Eucharistic Prayers of the new Missal. The most frequently used is Eucharistic Prayer 2. This prayer is based on the so-called Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus. Unfortunately, Paul Bradshaw, Metzger, et al, have shown that this document is not authentic, not Western and certainly not a reflection of any liturgical practice of any place at any time. It’s a pity that this was used as the basis for renewal.

[@RGrantJones]

Thank you for your kind comment, Gil! I'm no historian of liturgy -- just a guy who knows how to read a missal -- so I wasn't aware of the connection between the _Apostolic Tradition_ and Eucharistic Prayer #2. Do you happen to know why that prayer is used so often? Perhaps because it's so short?

[@ggarza]

@@RGrantJones Exactly! You understand better than you think!

[@JM-zq8rm]

@@RGrantJones In my experience the second Eucharistic Prayer is used mostly at daily Masses, not on Sunday, but practices may differ in different areas. Eucharistic Prayer I, the Roman Canon, would, in my opinion, be used more frequently if it were better translated. The current translation is clunky. Eucharistic Prayer III is, in my experience, used most frequently on Sundays, and includes the word "sacrifice" several times.

[@imjustheretogrill4794]

Prayer 1 and 3 are the ones I hear most often but I can’t get to daily mass often.

[@robcimarolli4510]

I was wondering if there’s a difference between the daily missal put out by OSV and MWTF? Content and quality? However I noticed on your copy they’re both on the spine

[@RGrantJones]

I wish I could provide some useful information, Rob. But this is the only edition with which I have any first-hand experience.

[@robcimarolli4510]

@@RGrantJones there’s also a Fr Lasance missal I’m trying to find out more about

[@aaronmueller5802]

I want to Preface this by saying that I think a reverent Novus Ordo Mass is perfectly valid and glorifies God. I think most of your observations are correct, that the Post V2 Mass places less emphasis on the propitiatory nature of the mass, and is overall more "ecumenical", for lack of a better word. I wonder how much if this was intentionally done by liberal leaders, and how much of it came from a nobel desire to emphasize certain aspects of the Mass (scripture reading, communal worship), at the unfortunate expense of the others. I'm very disappointed with the new moto proprio, but I imagine that the worst case scenario is that TLM parishes will transition to an extremely reverent NO with Latin, ad orientum, etc. As always, great video. I appreciate how respectfully you handled this despite your own theological persuasions. P.s. I'm not sure if you ever seen an Anglican Ordinariate liturgy, but I think it's a great way to do a vernacular mass. The NO would do good to take some cues from it.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the kind comment, Aaron! I haven't seen an Anglican Ordinariate liturgy, but I imagine they're reverent and in good taste.

[@larrym.johnson9219]

Dr Grant, I found this video, the Missal that you are using to describe the norus ordo was revised during the pontificate of Pope Benedict the 16th it revised the English to conform to the Latin in the Norus Ordo, to make it more in line with the official Latin text of the Church for the Mass, he also brought more of the traditional responses back to the Norus Ordo, this revision as far as I remember was the first Sunday of Advent I think it was 2010 because I remember buying this Missal, especially because of the changes, because of the warring factions, between the Progressives and the Trad's There was not much mentioned of how much Pope Benedict brought the mass back to a more reverent form and closer to the Latin in the Norvus Ordo. And I'm sure you are aware that when translators translate Sacred Scripture they can use a more literal form or a looser form, that's what was done in the seventies in the United States with the bishops and the mass that's why Pope Benedict sought through to reform the English to conform more closely to the Latin text of the norvus ordo, And also concerning the sacrifice of the Mass it is still considered a Sacrifice, in this way because the priest is speaking in persona Christie that it is Jesus speaking the words of institution that is the sacrifice of calvary in an unblooded manner, it is the actual sacrifice of calvary at the mass and is actually Jesus.body, blood soul and divinity, Jesus's sacrifice it is a participation in his One True and Holy sacrifice on the cross, because he is priest, and victim, you can look in the gospel where he speaks of this in the Gospel of John when he gives the apostles his body and blood at the last Supper, and ordains them as New testament priests, the apostles with Peter have the authority his authority, Jesus is our high priest the New testament priesthood is his priesthood, as you will remember Jesus priesthood is the priesthood of Melchizedek that all the priests share whether they are Bishop,or a priest. I am not a theologian or a philosopher I'm just an average Catholic for clearer explanation of this look to your copy of the catechism of the Catholic Church which I know you have in your library, the myth that the Catholic Church re-sacrifices Jesus every Sunday or every Mass is wrong, it is a representation of his sacrifice on Calvary because he is Lord and God his sacrifice goes beyond space and time and our our participation in his sacrifice, it's like he said in the Gospel My flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink he wasn't speaking symbolically, we participate in his sacrifice every Sunday, and every day that Mass is said, all over the world for the past 2000. years. With respect always.

[@RGrantJones]

Larrym. - thanks very much for your observations. Yes, that missal incorporates the improvements Pope Benedict directed. Having seen an earlier version, I'm glad the changes were made (and I wish Benedict were still pope). I have read the language the Roman Catholic Church uses to describe the relationship between the priest's sacrifice at the altar and Christ's sacrifice on the cross, but I've never understood how it could be true. I do think that each Eucharist is a feast upon that full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction for the sins of the whole world. May God bless you and yours!

[@joest.eggbenedictus1896]

This is very interesting, partially because it is so foreign to me. I have my father's childhood missal, but haven't reviewed it yet because I am unsure how to review it other than to comment on the sections, pictures, and the leather case it comes in. Your review reminded me of that. I like all of this stuff, and its a good change of pace then just Bibles

[@RGrantJones]

I understand what you mean. I wasn't sure I could say anything of value in this one, since I'm not an expert in liturgy. But this topic interests me, and I didn't have enough energy to put together a Bible review this weekend.

[@joest.eggbenedictus1896]

@@RGrantJones Well, I'm glad you did it, it was good.

[@Cal0rb]

I’m looking to buy a new everyday carry Bible and your page has been helpful. though, the more videos I skim through the more curious I am about your own Christian perspective. Do you subscribe to a particular denomination and if so could you summarize the main reason why that particular one? Also, I’ve looked at your lists of study Bibles and general favourite bibles, but wondering if you have any recommendations for a nice every day carry Bible. At the moment I’m leaning towards the baronius press Douay-Rheims but not sure what size. God bless

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Caleb! As to an every day carry Bible, if you're interested in the Douay-Rheims, I have to say that I haven't seen the Baronius Press edition myself. But it has a good reputation. I do own a copy of the Baronius Press Knox Bible, and it has opaque paper, is printed well, and the text block is sewn. How good are your eyes? The standard size Baronius Press edition is the same size as a reprint I own, which has a roughly 8.5 pt font. The large size is probably about 10 pt. As to other possibilities, it would help narrow the field if you could tell me more about your requirements. For instance, must the Bible include the Deuterocanonical books? Would you be interested in a Bible that includes the books the Orthodox Church holds to be canonical? How do you feel about gender inclusive language? Backing up to your first question, I'm an Anglican. I believe it's fairly faithful to the practices of the early Church (though there are exceptions). One can't become a Roman Catholic without believing everything that Church teaches, and I simply don't. There's much I find appealing about Orthodoxy, but I think I would be starved there for Pauline/Augustinian theology. I believe conservative Lutheranism is over-specified. In fact, none of those three denominations would welcome St. Irenaus' eschatology. But it's not an issue for Anglicans. One other reason: I love the American 1928 Book of Common Prayer. I'm not an apologist or evangelist, so none of that is meant to sway or upset anyone. I consider everyone who has faith in Christ to be my brother, and wish God's grace and peace upon them, regardless of denomination.

[@Cal0rb]

@@RGrantJones thank you for all of that information, Sir! I appreciate it. Have subscribed snd will tell my friends about your channel :)

[@RGrantJones]

@@Cal0rb - thank you, Caleb!

[@taywil64A]

An insightful and balanced precis on the debate on the new and older forms of the Catholic mass. Each mass, for a devout Catholic, is to be present at the Last Supper and also at the foot of the Cross. At mass the priest, in Persona Christi, is offering Christ to the Father through the Holy Spirit (offering God, to God, through God). As Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote, heaven and earth are united at the sacrifice of the mass, with angels ascending and descending during the holy sacrifice. I prefer the new order of the mass but I understand my fellow Catholics who consider some of the practices associated with the Novus Ordo lack the gravitas associated with the traditional Latin mass. Also, traditional Catholics see no need for lay people to either conduct readings or play 'pop music' when choirs exist to sing existing solemn hymns. What traditionalists suspect, and I think they are correct, is Pope Francis is insisting on more women doing readings, reciting prayers for the faithful, serve as Eucharistic ministers and having alter girls participate in the mass as acolytes to appease modernists within the Church. Pope Francis is disrespecting centuries of tradition to appease modernists groups of people who demand changes in the mass which they infrequently attend. Pope Emeritus Benedict steered a wiser course on such unsettled waters.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the insight, and for the kind words about the video! I hope the situation is resolved in a way that brings glory to God.

[@philipwest4553]

I am curious to know if the dispensational theology of the MacArthur Study Bible and some of the other bibles that you've reviewed cause you some trouble to the same or greater extent than the sacrificial language in the two missals that you reviewed. Given that the older missal expresses - in the priest's prayer - that the sacrifice of the altar is explicitly said to be the same sacrifice that was offered at the last supper and on the cross (and not a repetition of it)? PS: The Catholic Book Publishing Company has a new catholic translation called the NEW CATHOLIC BIBLE - not the same as the CTS New Catholic Bible - that may be interesting for a review.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Philip! I often point out statements in study Bibles with which I disagree, but I try to do so without engaging in polemics on the topic. Would you mind pointing me to the priest's prayer you reference?

[@philipwest4553]

@@RGrantJones In the video at 4:18 the "Preparation for Mass" prayer starting "Receive, O Holy Trinity, One God, ... in union with that most Holy Sacrifice offered by the same Christ our Lord at the Last Supper, and on the Altar of the Cross. ..." The intent is that the sacrifice offered in the mass is the one sacrifice offered 'once for all' (as the scripture says) by Jesus Christ. And that every sacrifice through all the ages past, present, and future is by a mystery of time in eternity the self same sacrifice that Christ offered at the Last Supper and on the Cross. You can find an explanation offered by a Catholic Priest in "The Ten minute Bible Hour" video "A Protestant Tours a Catholic Cathedral" at time mark 6:09. I hope this is helpful.

[@RGrantJones]

@@philipwest4553 - thank you! I'll have to take a look at that video. The way I read the prayer, multiple sacrifices are in view, but the one the priest intends to offer, he desires to be in union with Christ's sacrifice at the Last Supper and at the cross. "In union with" doesn't strike me as an assertion that the sacrifices are the same; instead, I interpret it to mean they are joined in some way, or perhaps are in harmony. Marriage is spoken of as a union, but the married man and woman remain distinct. Oregon is in union with South Carolina, but they're separate states.

[@philipwest4553]

@@RGrantJones The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Daily Roman Missal (a Scepter edition from 2004) also explicitly note that only one sacrifice is made. CCC 1330 under "Holy Sacrifice" and "The Daily Roman Missal" says on the thick papers at the front (it would be page 2) ""The Church continues to offer the sacrifice of the cross, but in a bloodless manner. The Mass is neither a repetition of nor a substitute for the cross. but the merit we gain from the Mass is the same merit that we would have gained had we actually been present at the foot of the cross on Calvary. The historical event of Calvary does not, however, repeat itself, nor is it continued in each Mass. The sacrifice of Christ is perfect and, therefore, does not need to be repeated, Glorious in heaven, Christ does not die again. His sacrifice is not repeated; rather, the presence of the singular sacrifice of the cross is multiplied, overcoming time and space.""

[@RGrantJones]

@@philipwest4553 - thank you for the references. I've heard this explanation often over the years. In the video, I was commenting on how a Protestant might react to the words in the two missals, and I think most Protestants would conclude from the prayer entitled "Preparation for Mass" that the priest wishes to offer a propitiatory sacrifice different from, though somehow in union with, Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

[@Arkangilos]

This may have been said already, but even in the TLM, the ideal was to have the people say some of the responses and such. To my knowledge there is a complex set of reasons beyond it being in Latin that people stopped, but it was always supposed to be, and in many TLM parishes the laity do sing in Latin various parts like in the NO, but the way it was intended in the beginning :)

[@CarnivoreYoghurt]

I get Protestants being wary of calling the Eucharist a sacrifice of the priest in some sense, but I don't understand the criticism that the sacrifice of Christ should be just a historical reality. In some sense all Christians regard this sacrifice as active today, the sacrifice to which we can appeal today before God, which effects with us something here and now, something living and always present before God. For Catholics this is simply expressed in the Eucharist, which makes this sacrifice present to partake in it, just as Protestants believe that they partake in the effects of this sacrifice spiritually even though it happened 2000 years ago. When St John writes that the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin, we all believe that this is something real today even if the blood was offered long ago. For Catholics it's simply more tangible

[@RGrantJones]

I think for most Protestants it goes back to statements in the book of Hebrews where Christ's sacrifice is contrasted with the repeated sacrifices under the Old Covenant. The point of the video wasn't to argue against Catholic positions, but to show that the Novus Ordo presents Protestants with difficulties, though fewer such hurdles than in the TLM. (Just to clarify my own view, and not wishing at all to argue the point: I certainly agree that His sacrifice on the cross has enduring consequences, and I see the communion service as a means whereby we participate in that one, full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice.)

[@CarnivoreYoghurt]

@@RGrantJones I didn't mean to start an argument either 🙂 I was just struck by your comment. Since I have a chance, I would like to thank you for your great work and always a balanced attitude in all your reviews. Your channel is one of the gems on KZbin!

[@RGrantJones]

@@CarnivoreYoghurt - thanks very much for saying so, Arathulion!

[@joebollig2689]

Paul Vl called it Novus Ordo. It is not disrespectful to call it that. And “active participation” can be interior. One can be engaged or disengaged during either liturgy.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Joe!

[@JM-zq8rm]

Please provide the citation where Paul VI titled the 1970 Mass the "Novus Ordo." He used those words in a sentence, but it was, as far as I can tell, never a title for the Mass.

[@adamboliek1593]

I know this is off topic and I apologize but could you recommend a few trust worthy children's study bibles for an 8 year old? Thank you kind sir for all you do for us!

[@RGrantJones]

I wish I could help, Adam, but I that's a subject I haven't researched.

[@matthaeusprime6343]

I was just wondering, Mr. Jones are you Anglican?

[@RGrantJones]

Yes, I am.

[@rraddena]

ok, I have to correct you in your statement about “little participation” in the Traditional Mass. That is a fallacy as you do not quite understand the role of priest and laity when it comes to the Traditional Mass or the Novus Ordo. The Mass is essentially about God and giving Him thanks. That is the definition of Eucharist in Greek. When people were saying their rosaries during the Mass, they were offering their prayers along with the prayers the priest was saying on behalf of the congregation. So these people were, in fact, participating either in saying their various prayers like the rosary or following along in the missal. I love your reviews btw.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the correction, rraddena!

[@rraddena]

@@RGrantJonesbtw, I apologize about defining eucharist as I know you know what it means. I hope it didn’t come across as snide or arrogant as that was not my intent.

[@RGrantJones]

@@rraddena - oh, your comment didn't come across that way at all. I was glad to read it, since it put things in a different perspective and it reminded me that I need to be careful in my choice of words. Perhaps I should have said something along these lines: The older mass is more conducive to private devotions, while the new mass encourages prayer in common. At any rate, when thinking about the low level of "participation" in the old mass, I had in mind the picture Eamon Duffy paints in "The Stripping of the Altars." I'll quote a bit from pages 117 and 118: "the canon of the Mass was recited by the priest in silence ... so that the people might not be hindered from praying. As that explanation reveals, it was not thought essential or even particularly desirable that the prayer of the laity should be the same as that of the priest at the altar. ... It demanded from the laity no more than decency in church and the recitation of the rosary while the priest got on with the sacrifice at the altar. His liturgy and theirs converged only at the climactic moment when Earth and Heaven met in the fragile disc of bread he held above his head, and everyone found some heightened form of words to greet and to petition the sacramental Christ for salvation, health, and blessing." In the new mass, of course, it's much more usual for everyone to pray the same prayers at the same time, either audibly or silently, so it seems to me that the new mass really is more like Cranmer's book of _common_ prayer, as some of the traditionalists assert.

[@JM-zq8rm]

When they said their private devotions they were hardly of one mind and one heart. Let me give an analogy. A person can go to a baseball game and sit there doing crossword puzzles. But that doesn't make him an active fan.

[@rraddena]

@@JM-zq8rm you are wrong, completely wrong. You clearly do not understand the role of the priesthood so it’s not a surprise that you made an ignorant remark. I attended Holy Mass last week and was completely engaged saying my private prayers along with the priest and uniting them to his. I could go on but it’s pointless.

[@lada100]

A very interesting video again. Thank you.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting!

[@RJ-ku2mh]

Cool video, very informative!

[@RGrantJones]

Glad you think so, RJ! Thanks for commenting!

[@chris12780]

Been using the NO. For more than a couple of years. May Roman Misal has its end paper already torn apart. We usually order it from the US to be used here in the Philippines. Here in our country, rare you will find the TLM being done.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Chris! Has the TLM been banned there, or is banning it unnecessary since it's so rare?

[@chris12780]

@@RGrantJones unnecessary. Because only a few priests anyway are allowed to say the TLM. And only a few catholics understand the latin mass. It is only the seniors who understand the Latin Mass.

[@chris12780]

@@RGrantJones Bishops are granted the sole authority to authorize certain priests to say TLM. So the bishops will decide who among the priests can say the TLM. Maybe one or two parishes per dioceses. Actually, we don't have any St. Joseph Daily Missal available here as well.

[@flyingisaac2186]

Traditionis Custodes is both needlessly severe and replete with contradictions, for instance where can a TLM be offered? Personally for a missal I prefer the St Andrew's Missal (mine is one of 1940 with Irish propers, but the main part is close to the typical reprint) which has lengthy introductions to at least the Sunday Mass, which give equal weight to the text of the Mass and the Divine Office, a side of the liturgy so often forgotten. One big flaw with the St Joseph's Missal is how many of the propers are not translated which can cause difficulty with following. Yet it is a fine missal. JFK had one with a custom leather cover. A good many will use the Baronius Missal which is based off Fr Sylvester Juergen's missal, but has various updates, including even Divine Mercy. One other issue is how any effort to offer a Latin Novus Ordo Missae in Latin is not fairly treated, although few go as far as the bishops of Costa Rica in banning anything traditional including vestments and altar ware. Only really the Oratorians, and maybe the Rosminians can do that without trouble. There is also no updated Latin LOTH easily available. One other thing is that few in the NOM use a missal, most use missalettes, which given the triannual lectionary and the many possible variants, is almost a requirement. Thank you for this thoughtful piece, although there was many in France. Only the Use of Lyon seems to exist, with major Uses like that of Paris suppressed in the 1860s. Spain also has the Use of Braga, which, I think has a Novus Ordo version. There is obviously the Ambrosian Rite of Milan, the Dominican, Carmelite and Nobertine Rites, which also have parallel Novus Ordo versions. The Franciscans have a Romano-Seraphic Missal, but St Francis wanted any priests of his to only offer the Roman Rite, and the Franciscan or Seraphic Missal is a Roman Missal with propers for the Order.

[@8polyglot]

Full disclosure: didn't watch the whole video, but as a fan of your channel and a cradle Roman Catholic raised entirely in the Novus Ordo Missae I wanted to offer my perspective. I lean traditional, but I understand the merits of the new mass. In my ideal world, Roman priests would default to Eucharistic Prayer I, the Roman Canon. The priest would not face the congregation and Latin would be incorporated at a much higher rate than it is now (hovering around 0%). On the other hand, Latin mass communities/societies can be ferociously insular and uncharitable and nearly idolatrous in putting liturgy above the Lord. There's a happy medium in there somewhere that Roman Catholicism has not yet found; we need to look to the example of the Eastern churches for that.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for the comment, 8polyglot! You didn't miss anything earthshattering. I just pointed out some differences and gave my non-Catholic perspective on the question of whether the newer mass is more Protestant friendly. By the way, I prefer ad orientem myself.

[@AppalachianAcademics]

I highly recommend you check out the Ordinariate rite. I’ve found it to be my happy medium.

[@henkdevries1507]

Thanks for this, very topical. Love the saint Joseph missal you show here. I was comparing the 1962 Angelus press and the Baronius press missal recently myself. The older father Lasance missal is interesting because it is from before the changes to the Holy week were made. I do sympathise with the tradionalists but it amazes me that nobody is advocating for a hybrid form of these masses like I believe pope Benedict hoped for.

[@RGrantJones]

That sounds like it could be the solution. Perhaps if changes had been introduced slowly and incrementally back in 1969/70, there would have been less discord.

[@henkdevries1507]

@@RGrantJones I agree. The problem traditionalists have is that the Novus Ordo is almost never said with reverence. The reverent new mass is like a unicorn, almost impossible to find so one can understand pious Catholics looking to the TLM.

[@RGrantJones]

@@henkdevries1507 - I'm happy for my Catholic neighbors, because both of the churches near me (I live within a block of the boundary line between the two parishes) hold relatively reverent masses. One of them is what I would call more "high church." They incorporate Latin into the service, use incense, and have an excellent choir. I wish they would bring back the altar rail and nudge the priest around to the other side of the altar, but one can't have everything.

[@SaltyPalamite]

The solution would be to discard the NO, and return to the 1,500+ year Latin Mass. The NO is valid, but it tends to be destructive of the Faith. (In terms of a hybrid, I attend a TLM diocesan parish. They do offer NO, too, but it is always ad orientem, and the the Leonine prayers are said at the end of Mass. )

[@8polyglot]

Ironically, as far as I know, the Second Vatican Council advocated for a mass that basically was a hybrid of the two we use now.

[@stephanottawa7890]

Thanks for the video....May I add that it is not just the difference in the actual prayers. We lay people would not necessarily hear the offertory prayers, but it is also a question of attitude. The new mass cultivates a modern, self-centred attitude whereas the traditional mass is God-centred. As for Protestants, there are so many types of Protestants that the Roman modernists will never satisfy them all and why even try? Protestants have chosen to go their own way and it is actually divided ways - they cannot even agree amongst themselves.....They divide more and more as time to goes by Who knows how many Protestant sects there will be when Christ comes again and how far some will be from the original Gospel! I would be more concerned about the relationship with the old Church, namely the Orthodox of the East. That should be the measure for any sort of changes in the Mass. Does it also conform with an Orthodox mindset? This should be the question.

[@edwardgraham9443]

Interesting. I'm not Catholic so I don't have a dog in the fight, but this seems to be angering a lot of Catholics. Francis seems to be a very divisive figure across the board. That the vast majority of protestants don't view what the pope says as of any value, I'm not sure many would care what he wrote.

[@RGrantJones]

True, and one curious thing about this situation is that many Catholics don't seem to care what the Pope says or thinks either. For my part, it seems clear that Vatican II acted to reform the Roman church in a way similar to the reformations of churches in Germany, Holland, Switzerland, Scandinavia, England, and Scotland in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: The worship service was translated into the language of the people, congregational singing was introduced, sermons were emphasized, Bible reading was encouraged -- all good things. But I wonder about Pope Francis himself, particularly after the Pachamama episode; and I have the impression that some of the other advocates of Vatican II are opposed to traditional Christian morals.

[@edwardgraham9443]

@@RGrantJones I'm not sure if it's just Francis, or the many Catholics are veering away from much of the pope has had to say. They did it with the priop pope and may its just that a younger generation of Catholics are voicing their discontent more. Maybe a little bit of protestantism has gotten into then are the jibe from protestants about the pope being antichrist and all that. Maybe it's this particular pope, but whatever it is, he is a very controversial person either way.

[@alpsgoodman]

@@RGrantJones I realize this is an older comment but I will chime in on the so-called Pachamama issue. What the media didn't report well enough was what the Pope said in the document he issued summarizing the Amazon Synod. Pope Francis writes, "79. It is possible to take up an indigenous symbol in some way, without necessarily considering it as idolatry. A myth charged with spiritual meaning can be used to advantage and not always considered a pagan error. Some religious festivals have a sacred meaning and are occasions for gathering and fraternity, albeit in need of a gradual process of purification or maturation. A missionary of souls will try to discover the legitimate needs and concerns that seek an outlet in at times imperfect, partial or mistaken religious expressions, and will attempt to respond to them with an inculturated spirituality." - Querida Amazonia So it seems clear he felt he was assisting in that process of inculturation- turning a pagan symbol into a Christian one. His intentions appear to be good, even if the execution and explanations at the time could've been much better.

[@RGrantJones]

@@alpsgoodman - thanks for commenting. I certainly hadn't seen that explanation.

[@paladinhansen137]

I personally really like St. John Chrysostom and his Divine Liturgy when concerning Orthodox/Catholic . Interesting take on the Latin side of things.

[@RGrantJones]

I've attended the The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom maybe half a dozen times. It was beautiful, but my heart is western, I suppose.

[@RGrantJones]

@Eremias Ranwolf - I don't believe I've ever seen or heard it. Is it possible to view on KZbin; and if so, could you recommend a channel?

[@krjohnson29]

As a very recent convert to the Catholic church who attends a "novice ordo" mass (and, indeed, plays electric guitar at it 😂), this whole conflict over the liturgy is quite mistifying. On the one hand, I can deeply sympathize with those who like the old Latin mass. I grew up in a traditional Lutheran church, and think of the old liturgy there fondly. Now the church I grew up in has pretty much abandoned all pretense of liturgy and I find that sad. There were many virtues to the old liturgy. And I'm deeply sympathetic to the idea of "let 1000 flowers bloom". On the other hand the Latin mass does seem to breed some kind of antagonism. I have heard a lot of these traditional Catholics (who are extremely vocal despite their small number) disparage the new mass and people that attend it. To them, it's almost like if you don't go to a Latin mass parish you aren't really Catholic, and anything but the Latin mass is an insult to our Lord. I think it's not at the point of schism right now (though I am told it is worse in Europe), but I can see why Francis would want to bring everyone together. But even though I'm 50/50 on this decision, I'm generally supportive of Francis. I think he's doing well cleaning up the finances and other shenanigans in the Vatican. And I find most of the sharper criticisms lacking upon close examination (even the supposed "pachamama" incident I found to be way overblown).

[@nmatthew7469]

You're very naive and uninformed on this subject.

[@krjohnson29]

@@nmatthew7469 I feel like I'm pretty well informed, but would be happy to learn more. What source do you recommend?

[@JM-zq8rm]

Kr, Welcome to Catholicism. I think your comments are well informed. Some of the caustic comments on this topic simply demonstrate the need for Pope Francis' action. btw, the term is "novus ordo" -- but spell check has a problem with that. And in some places it is considered to be a pejorative way of referring to the Mass of Paul VI.

[@krjohnson29]

@@JM-zq8rm Thank you 🙂 As you might imagine, I am not exactly fluent in Latin 😂

[@krjohnson29]

@Eremias Ranwolf Ha! "Novus Boredo". See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It seems like the traditional Catholics just can't help but disparage the new liturgy and, quite often, the people there. I'm afraid I do not have a sociology degree, nor did I live through the period of liturgical change you refer to. All I can say is right now there seems to be a lot of antipathy on that side of things that does not seem at all healthy, and I don't understand why we can't just get along. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Benedict tried the carrot approach, but it seems like things got worse instead of better. Now Francis is using the stick. Time will tell whether it works out or not. 🤷

[@dalecaldwell]

What isn't required is forbidden.

[@TreasureTrain]

should be the DAILY MISSILE: roll 2d6

[@nicholasgregoris3958]

Some Random Thoughts: (1) The official language of the New Mass is still Latin and it may be celebrated "facing Liturgical East," that is, "ad orientem." This is in fact the presumption of the Novus Ordo rubrics; (2) The Old Roman Rite, codified after the Council of Trent by Pope Saint Pius V,, did not suppress any of the Western Rites (e g., Ambrosian; Mozzarabic) which had a proven pedigree of 200 years. Those rites are still celebrated today in their respective ecclesiastical territories (e g., Mikan; Toledo); (3) Any Pope including Francis is prohibited from abolishing the ancient Roman Rite according to the decree "Quo Primum" of Pope Saint Pius V; (4) The New Mass, unlike the Old Mass, was fabricated on typewriters in the Vatican and therefore not a fruit of "organic development." It was fabricated with the input of six Protestant observers present at Vatican II including Max Thurian who praised the New Mass as being more "ecumenical" than the Old Mass; (5) The architect of the New Mass was Monsignor (later Archbishop) Annibale Bugnini who was suspect of Modernism and free masonic association; (6) The Fathers of Vatican II (i.e. The Bishops) did not authorize the creation of an entirely New Rite of Mass. Rather, they suggested a certain simplification of the rubrics and the restoration of certain ancient elements like the Prayer of the Faithful and Offertory Procession. The Bishops at Vatican II did not call for an end to the use of Latin in the Sacred Liturgy. Nor did they ask that the Lay Faithful be allowed to receive Holy Communion in the hand let alone serve as Extraordinary Ministers or Altar Girls. The aforementioned are all aberrations permitted and/or tolerated by the Vatican II and Post-Vatican II Popes; (7) Pope Pius XII gave limited permission for congregational singing (vernacular) hymnody in the Old Rite and likewise authorized the so-called "Dialogue Mass" which allowed the Lay Faithful and not just the altar boys to offer the responses at Holy Mass; (8) The essence of the sacrificial nature of the Mass is plainly revealed in Our Lord's own words at the Last Supper: "This is My Body which will be given up for you," and "This is the Chalice of My Blood which will be shed for you and for many for the remission of sins."

[@nicholasgregoris3958]

Correction of Typo: Milan

[@AKdon68]

It is not actually 2 Masses.. It is 2 forms of the one Mass.... Thanks for the review : )

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, T K. But what you write raises a couple of questions in my mind. First, what is the essence of the mass? Second, is the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom another form of the one mass? If not, why not? Unifying multiple distinct things seems to be a popular theme in these comments :)

[@AKdon68]

@@RGrantJones Hi, I am not an expert on these, but I try to explain it with my v limited knowledge.. There are 3 elements in the mass (Sorry I forget all the names here) - 1) The elements that are free to be changed like the songs sung, the daily prayer offerings, etc.. (depends on day, churches, etc) 2) The elements that cannot be changed in the particular rite. Eg - All the Novus Ordo (Latin mass) should contain the Gloria, Byzantine Rite may not contain that part.. (Depends on rites culture, location, etc ) 3) The most important element, of the CORE of the mass.. these are certain elements like the Words of Consecration, Creed, Eucharistic Prayer, Lord's Prayer etc.. These cannot be changed and is common in all rites throughout the ages.. This 3rd element might be the essence you were asking that unites the mass.. CCC1205 - "In the liturgy, above all that of the sacraments, there is an immutable part, a part that is divinely instituted and of which the Church is the guardian, and parts that can be changed, which the Church has the power and on occasion also the duty to adapt to the cultures of recently evangelized peoples." When I find the exact details on this I will update this comment... Thank you..

[@RGrantJones]

@@AKdon68 - thanks for the response. Let me give an example to explain why I'm not comfortable with saying "two forms of the one mass." All triangles share a common nature or essence, but they have characteristics that individuate them. I don't hear anyone insisting that we say that they're all forms of the same triangle. I think about masses and liturgies in the same way. I understand that Pope Benedict used the terms ordinary form and extraordinary form to refer to the newer and older liturgies, so I suppose that mode of expression is in line with his thinking. But it doesn't come naturally to me.

[@AKdon68]

@@RGrantJones In that sense, one could say the Eucharist is that essence that unites.. Irrespective of what Mass you go it is the same.. Maybe that is in a lay man's term.. But like u mentioned rightly in your video, the Latin mass was preceded by Greek, it is just changing its form to the culture of that day.. (Latin became an obsolete language, and people hardly spoke as before, so therefor the change from Latin form to this English form. It was not replacing the current mass but just updating due to changing times and needs) I believe that Pope at the time (Vatican 2) did not completely remove the Latin mass because people was still attached to it and wanted to take it slow.. The traditionalists does not say it is an illicit mass or less effective, if any traditionalists say it they don't have a full understanding of Catholic teaching.. Their complain is mostly related to piety and emotional attachment to it. I believe there is no need really for any one to say they are the same essence because division in not related to it, I believe.. To answer ur question in a more theological way I will have to do some research on it.. If I come upon anything I'll update.. Thank you Grant for all the review u are doing.. God Bless : )

[@RGrantJones]

@@AKdon68 - thanks for the conversation. I went to bed last night trying to find examples of 'different forms of the same thing' which I might use to help sharpen my ability to think about the Novus Ordo and the TLM in that way. A human when he is young and when he is old; water as ice, as fluid and as vapor; a caterpillar and a butterfly -- those came to mind. The water analog seems most hopeful, because water can exist in all three forms at once in the same vicinity. But I haven't worked out how to apply that analogy yet.

[@fredeskridge22]

I grew up Catholic and I look back and fell for the people whole follow what they think is the true church. They have become prideful in their Religion rather than opening their minds to the truth. Or maybe they never heard the truth like I had not. Those are the ones we must reach or there will be many that are shocked by where they wake up in eternity

[@timotheospetros]

Francis isn't a pope, he isn't even a Catholic. He's a masonic antipope. Furthermore, the _novus ordo missae_ is not a valid rite of Mass. It was promulgated by Antipope Paul VI to replace the true Mass. He was very astute and knew that his changes would invalidate the sacrifice of the Mass wherever they were used, specifically the displacement of the phrase _mysterium Fidei_ in the authorized eucharistic formula. Antipope Paul VI also invalidated the Rite of Ordination, effectively stripping it of every specifically Catholic reference to the priesthood. These Vatican II sect antipopes have no authority whatsoever in the Church, they are interlopers, agents of Satan. It is a very grave sin (objectively) to recognize them as possessing genuine judicial power. This is the Great Deception prophesied in the NT.

[@RGrantJones]

Thanks for commenting, Timotheos Petros!

[@bngr_bngr]

You must be a sedevacantists. What church do you go to for mass?

[@timotheospetros]

@@bngr_bngr When there is no Pope, as is the case today, we are all in the same boat; we are all sedevacantists, whether we recognize it or not. As long as self-styled 'Catholics' continue to recognize the counterfeit church of Vatican II and its antipopes as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, this satanic imposture will continue, and it will remain very difficult, if not impossible, for most of us to attend a valid Mass celebrated by a valid priest who is not himself an imposing heretic.

[@όαγωνιστής-θ6θ]

Are you a Melkite? Become Orthodox.

[@timotheospetros]

@@όαγωνιστής-θ6θ No. The 'Orthodox' are in no way orthodox. They are heretics and schismatics. They will most assuredly lose their souls unless they repent of their grave sins against the faith.

[@njiomonansichristianfreder6374]

May you abstain from giving any time to heresies, notably damnable heresies of this magnitude straight out of the synagogue of Satan that (roman)catholicism is. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life: neither traditions, nor denominations, nor religions. Sola scriptura. "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."Jésus-Christ i.e. God i.e. Adonaï{Authorized Holy King James 1611}